Question:

Don’t really have any trout waters near home Willi, so yours was a pleasant read. I was however, standing around and chatting with a few friends today and we are all of the same persuasion. With a much milder than normal winter – usually  a several day stretch of below zero weather and this time not one day of single digits! – we agree it is time to start checking the water temperature. Our general feeling is that when the thermometer reads anything above forty degrees, it’s time to start fishing as the smallmouth start moving to the spawning beds. Not actually on the beds but they begin to leave the winter holes and move in the rivers and begin feeding. It’s fun to have that ‘antsy’ ‘ants in your pants’ feeling ain’t it? john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I mentioned in an early post that for the first time in about a month and half, I actually saw some trout during a walk. Today is very pleasant and on my way back from picking up some electrical supplies, I stopped at the river and checked it out from the bridge. Standing on the bridge and looking down, I saw a pod of about twenty trout feeding in the pool below. (See pics on ABPF) I decided to take an hour off and do some fishing. I walked downstream to an area that frequently has some free rising fish. As I approached the area, I saw several dimples from rising fish. Although some of the rises were from fish sipping pupa, many of them were fish taking midge adults which is uncommon. The midges were huge, well relatively anyway, about a size twenty. Water levels are still down and the fish were feeding in water that varied from one to three feet in depth. They spread out in a section of river about 150 feet in length and were feeding in several distinct pods. The current is very moderate in most of this area and in the clear water I could see the fish suspended above the bottom at their feeding stations and watch them as they chased a pupa or rose to an adult. Especially when they are feeding in such thin water, the fish here are very spooky. You generally have your best chance at any given fish on the first presentation. Once you get a refusal from a fish, your next drift over it may spook it and put down the whole pod. I tied on a Griffith’s Gnat and crept into position. I started working the first fish, got a refusal on the third cast and moved on to the next one. The next fish I worked took on about the fourth cast. I landed it, slid it onto a shelf of ice that remained in the shady area where I was standing and took a picture. See ABPF The commotion of the fish put down the rest of that pod of fish. I moved upstream to the next group. There appeared to be a better fish feeding along the opposite bank, just upstream from a large boulder. Since I usually can only get one fish from a pod, if that, I decided to target that fish. The cast was across several different current seams and getting a good drift was difficult. A dozen casts later, I got the fly where it needed to be and got the fish, another Rainbow a couple of inches bigger and much fatter. Again the rest of that pod of fish was put down. I had time to hit one more area. There was a single fish feeding in the head of this run. The fish feeding in this area are usually much easier. The faster current gives them less time to survey your fly and broken surface makes your errors less noticeable. Several casts later, I finally got a good drift and hooked the fish. It was another Rainbow about the size of the first, around 15/16 inches. Time to go home and do some electric repairs. I was very glad to see the condition of the fish. All were in good shape. We had a mild Winter this year which helps the trout. Early fish after a hard Winter are often very skinny from Winter’s stress. For the next several weeks it will take several days in a row of warm temperatures, like we had recently, to get the fish moving. By mid March, the Olives will start. Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was very glad to see the condition of the fish. All were in good shape. We had a mild Winter this year which helps the trout. Early fish after a hard Winter are often very skinny from Winter’s stress. For the next several weeks it will take several days in a row of warm temperatures, like we had recently, to get the fish moving. By mid March, the Olives will start. How is the snowpack in the upper watershed up there?  It is almost scary low down here.  I am certainly hoping that the mild winter that we have had does not translate into another low-water, high-temperature summer. BTW….to the folks that live in Wyoming….how is it looking up there?

I should have been aware of this just from observation, but I haven’t heard anything about it on the news. I just looked it up and the different basins across Colorado range from 45 to 70 percent of normal. This isn’t good, but the next few of months are our wettest months and can make a big difference. Willi

Response:

I tied on a Griffith’s Gnat and crept into position. I started working the first fish, got a refusal on the third cast and moved on to the next one. The next fish I worked took on about the fourth cast. I landed it, slid it onto a shelf of ice that remained in the shady area where I was standing and took a picture. See ABPF

That’s a great fish-on-the-ground photo, Willi. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a rainbow in that condition. The ice makes a perfect background. You must have used a digital camera. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I was very glad to see the condition of the fish. All were in good shape. We had a mild Winter this year which helps the trout. Early fish after a hard Winter are often very skinny from Winter’s stress. For the next several weeks it will take several days in a row of warm temperatures, like we had recently, to get the fish moving. By mid March, the Olives will start.

How is the snowpack in the upper watershed up there?  It is almost scary low down here.  I am certainly hoping that the mild winter that we have had does not translate into another low-water, high-temperature summer. BTW….to the folks that live in Wyoming….how is it looking up there?  

Response:

BTW….to the folks that live in Wyoming….how is it looking up there?

  It’s looking pretty bleak along the east face of the Bighorns.  Reservoirs are all very low.  I went up again and fished the tail water of the Tongue today. It’s as low as I’ve seen in the 3 years I’ve fished it.  The reservoir is very low.  Looks like it will be another tough year for our small streams. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Was it El Nino or El Nina that I saw a blurb of on the news the other day? I get them mixed up.  Anyhow, whatever areas whichever one effects are due for some rain this year……maybe a lot. john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was very glad to see the condition of the fish. All were in good shape. We had a mild Winter this year which helps the trout. Early fish after a hard Winter are often very skinny from Winter’s stress. For the next several weeks it will take several days in a row of warm temperatures, like we had recently, to get the fish moving. By mid March, the Olives will start. How is the snowpack in the upper watershed up there?  It is almost scary low down here.  I am certainly hoping that the mild winter that we have had does not translate into another low-water, high-temperature summer. BTW….to the folks that live in Wyoming….how is it looking up there? I should have been aware of this just from observation, but I haven’t heard anything about it on the news. I just looked it up and the different basins across Colorado range from 45 to 70 percent of normal. This isn’t good, but the next few of months are our wettest months and can make a big difference. Willi

Response:

BTW….to the folks that live in Wyoming….how is it looking up there?

Unless March and April bring some pleasant surprises, it’s looking like a season that will begin early and end early. The snowpack is so low that there isn’t even enough to ski on (IMHO) at the local resort. Some of the ranges in Colorado seem to be doing better, so I expect I’ll be doing most of my fishing down there after mid-July or thereabouts. If I do a mini clave up here, it will almost definitely be held in early July. I’m hoping a heavy spring snowfall and subsequent runoff will force a several-week postponement, but I wouldn’t bet on it. I won’t be surprised at all to be fishing the high country on Memorial Day this year. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

 How is the snowpack in the upper watershed up there?  It is almost scary low down here.  I am certainly hoping that the mild winter that we have had does not translate into another low-water, high-temperature summer. BTW….to the folks that live in Wyoming….how is it looking up there?  

Hey Chip,  You might know about this site, but here is a link to the Snotel data. ftp://ftp.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/data/snow/update Great place to find snowpack info.  The northern states are certainly doing better than the southern states…. — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

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I mentioned in an early post that for the first time in about a month and half, I actually saw some trout during a walk. Today is very pleasant and on my way back from picking up some electrical supplies, I stopped at the river and checked it out from the bridge. Standing on the bridge and looking down, I saw a pod of about twenty trout feeding in the pool below. (See pics on ABPF)

Glad to hear that you’re out on the home waters. Is this much earlier than usual? IOW, when you say "mild winter" do you mean length of winter or depth (cold temps), or both? Danl who doesn’t even have his ‘02 license yet…Oh the shame!….

Response:

The guy I am after is in a meeting but I have a left a message for him to call me. It may take him a little time to get to me as I’ll be away from home and the lodge for the next week or so. But I will get the answer. I forgot to mention earlier, the reason I compared the fishing as similar to ours was the "one shot" scenario of get it right or spook em. Clark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like some nice fishing Willi, and the style is somewhat reminiscent of our North Island spring creek fishing by the sounds of things. The river is on the plains instead of in the mountains, so it does have SOME spring creek characteristics. The fish average considerably larger than in the upstream mountain areas but there are far fewer fish. From your descriptions, your rivers have lower populations of fish than our rivers in general but your fish are considerably larger. The only streams or rivers that I know of that have fish that average in size what yours seem to, are short sections of tailwaters that are below reservoirs that have miasis (sp)shrimp in them. I know I asked you this before but have you gotten any more information as to why this would be? It seems to me that you must either have very limitted spawning or the survival of the fry or young fish is low. Willi

Response:

Sounds like some nice fishing Willi, and the style is somewhat reminiscent of our North Island spring creek fishing by the sounds of things.

The river is on the plains instead of in the mountains, so it does have SOME spring creek characteristics. The fish average considerably larger than in the upstream mountain areas but there are far fewer fish. From your descriptions, your rivers have lower populations of fish than our rivers in general but your fish are considerably larger. The only streams or rivers that I know of that have fish that average in size what yours seem to, are short sections of tailwaters that are below reservoirs that have miasis (sp)shrimp in them. I know I asked you this before but have you gotten any more information as to why this would be? It seems to me that you must either have very limitted spawning or the survival of the fry or young fish is low. Willi

Response:

Well that’s the curious part. In short answer as to my research no, I simply haven’t had time. I am just finishing 2 days off and will make a call to a friend in a second and see what answer he gives, he heads up one of our major Fish and Game Councils. However, I will presume that neither your ideas are really accurate. there is abundant spawning habitat and our fish have less predation here that they would in the US. In fact once they reach about 16-18 inches there is little they could predate on them unless they sick or injured. Stay tuned I’ll get on the phone and hopefully return with something of use. Clark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like some nice fishing Willi, and the style is somewhat reminiscent of our North Island spring creek fishing by the sounds of things. The river is on the plains instead of in the mountains, so it does have SOME spring creek characteristics. The fish average considerably larger than in the upstream mountain areas but there are far fewer fish. From your descriptions, your rivers have lower populations of fish than our rivers in general but your fish are considerably larger. The only streams or rivers that I know of that have fish that average in size what yours seem to, are short sections of tailwaters that are below reservoirs that have miasis (sp)shrimp in them. I know I asked you this before but have you gotten any more information as to why this would be? It seems to me that you must either have very limitted spawning or the survival of the fry or young fish is low. Willi

Response:

Sounds like some nice fishing Willi, and the style is somewhat reminiscent of our North Island spring creek fishing by the sounds of things. Clark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I mentioned in an early post that for the first time in about a month and half, I actually saw some trout during a walk. Today is very pleasant and on my way back from picking up some electrical supplies, I stopped at the river and checked it out from the bridge. Standing on the bridge and looking down, I saw a pod of about twenty trout feeding in the pool below. (See pics on ABPF) I decided to take an hour off and do some fishing. I walked downstream to an area that frequently has some free rising fish. As I approached the area, I saw several dimples from rising fish. Although some of the rises were from fish sipping pupa, many of them were fish taking midge adults which is uncommon. The midges were huge, well relatively anyway, about a size twenty. Water levels are still down and the fish were feeding in water that varied from one to three feet in depth. They spread out in a section of river about 150 feet in length and were feeding in several distinct pods. The current is very moderate in most of this area and in the clear water I could see the fish suspended above the bottom at their feeding stations and watch them as they chased a pupa or rose to an adult. Especially when they are feeding in such thin water, the fish here are very spooky. You generally have your best chance at any given fish on the first presentation. Once you get a refusal from a fish, your next drift over it may spook it and put down the whole pod. I tied on a Griffith’s Gnat and crept into position. I started working the first fish, got a refusal on the third cast and moved on to the next one. The next fish I worked took on about the fourth cast. I landed it, slid it onto a shelf of ice that remained in the shady area where I was standing and took a picture. See ABPF The commotion of the fish put down the rest of that pod of fish. I moved upstream to the next group. There appeared to be a better fish feeding along the opposite bank, just upstream from a large boulder. Since I usually can only get one fish from a pod, if that, I decided to target that fish. The cast was across several different current seams and getting a good drift was difficult. A dozen casts later, I got the fly where it needed to be and got the fish, another Rainbow a couple of inches bigger and much fatter. Again the rest of that pod of fish was put down. I had time to hit one more area. There was a single fish feeding in the head of this run. The fish feeding in this area are usually much easier. The faster current gives them less time to survey your fly and broken surface makes your errors less noticeable. Several casts later, I finally got a good drift and hooked the fish. It was another Rainbow about the size of the first, around 15/16 inches. Time to go home and do some electric repairs. I was very glad to see the condition of the fish. All were in good shape. We had a mild Winter this year which helps the trout. Early fish after a hard Winter are often very skinny from Winter’s stress. For the next several weeks it will take several days in a row of warm temperatures, like we had recently, to get the fish moving. By mid March, the Olives will start. Willi

Response:

I mentioned in an early post that for the first time in about a month and half, I actually saw some trout during a walk. Today is very pleasant and on my way back from picking up some electrical supplies, I stopped at the river and checked it out from the bridge. Standing on the bridge and looking down, I saw a pod of about twenty trout feeding in the pool below. (See pics on ABPF) I decided to take an hour off and do some fishing. I walked downstream to an area that frequently has some free rising fish. As I approached the area, I saw several dimples from rising fish. Although some of the rises were from fish sipping pupa, many of them were fish taking midge adults which is uncommon. The midges were huge, well relatively anyway, about a size twenty. Water levels are still down and the fish were feeding in water that varied from one to three feet in depth. They spread out in a section of river about 150 feet in length and were feeding in several distinct pods. The current is very moderate in most of this area and in the clear water I could see the fish suspended above the bottom at their feeding stations and watch them as they chased a pupa or rose to an adult. Especially when they are feeding in such thin water, the fish here are very spooky. You generally have your best chance at any given fish on the first presentation. Once you get a refusal from a fish, your next drift over it may spook it and put down the whole pod. I tied on a Griffith’s Gnat and crept into position. I started working the first fish, got a refusal on the third cast and moved on to the next one. The next fish I worked took on about the fourth cast. I landed it, slid it onto a shelf of ice that remained in the shady area where I was standing and took a picture. See ABPF The commotion of the fish put down the rest of that pod of fish. I moved upstream to the next group. There appeared to be a better fish feeding along the opposite bank, just upstream from a large boulder. Since I usually can only get one fish from a pod, if that, I decided to target that fish. The cast was across several different current seams and getting a good drift was difficult. A dozen casts later, I got the fly where it needed to be and got the fish, another Rainbow a couple of inches bigger and much fatter. Again the rest of that pod of fish was put down. I had time to hit one more area. There was a single fish feeding in the head of this run. The fish feeding in this area are usually much easier. The faster current gives them less time to survey your fly and broken surface makes your errors less noticeable. Several casts later, I finally got a good drift and hooked the fish. It was another Rainbow about the size of the first, around 15/16 inches. Time to go home and do some electric repairs. I was very glad to see the condition of the fish. All were in good shape. We had a mild Winter this year which helps the trout. Early fish after a hard Winter are often very skinny from Winter’s stress. For the next several weeks it will take several days in a row of warm temperatures, like we had recently, to get the fish moving. By mid March, the Olives will start. Willi

Response:

Question:

You may want to try The Zig Zag around Rhododendron, and the Salmon River just S. of Hwy 26 for some good trout action, on dry flies, eg size 14-16 elk hair caddis or adams.  Much easier to fish, especially on the Salmon, and lots of trout in the range of 6 to 11 inches.

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Yuf, The Clackamas is a beautiful river to fish.  My friends and I have gone to the Upper Fork and done quite well.  GRHE and Prince Nymph were successful.  We also got about 7-10"ers.  The ones we caught were fun little fighters though. Which made the size kind of non-important.  Close to the bank, I think is the secret of this river, it was also fast where we were fishing it.  There were places where you could fight the trees and shrubs and then there were places where there were lottsa rocks and open.  The fish seemed to bite the best where the trees and branches were, even though it was harder on us! <g Thanks for your report, it sounded like you had fun!! Maybe I’ll get to see you up there some time. Kathy from Beavercreek

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Took yesterday off, and headed into the cascades on the Clackamas highway.  Amazingly, in 70 miles (and fast ones, as the roads to get there are fantastic, once you escape Portland traffic) I was pretty much in midst of the Cascade range.  The Clackamas canyon is very pretty. I fished the Oak Grove Fork of the Clackamas, below Timothy lake. I’d heard it was little fished, and pretty secluded.  It is both, even though I pulled off a nice paved road and walked 40 feet to this roaring stream, a few paces further puts you in what seems like the middle of nowhere.  Not sure how little fished given the camp sites and line strewn about the banks, but there was no one to be seen. What a tough stream to fish!  Cramped quarters, with trees and overhanging vegitation crowding the banks.  Also, it’s very fast, and perhaps high due to a rain (and snow) early this week.  So, for all the watching to avoid snags, and scrambling not to get really wet in really cold water, I did manage to catch a 1/2 dozen tiny coastal cutthroats. What a beautiful fish!  The biggest was probably no more than 7". All were caught on a #14 gold ribbed hare’s ear 5′ below a indicator. Not once did I get a fish due to the indicator – this water was too fast and furious, and they usually hooked themselves. Any hints on how to fish water like this appreciated.  It was truly whitewater.  Perhaps I should just try it when it is lower. Decided after a couple hours that this was way too much work for tiny fish, and drove back along the Clackamas.  Found some open water near a pullout (easy to do here), and enjoyed some relaxing, easy, and fun fishing.  I fished only a couple holes below strong rapids, and consistently got 6-9" rainbows (the Clackamas is stocked above the reservoir) for an hour, on the same hare’s ear, only this time I was seeing the takes with the indicator.  It was a great feeling to finally seem to have a clue.  Probably caught 6 fish in first 15 minutes once I keyed into a nice slot with an easy drift for the nymph.  They seemed spooked from then on, so I continued downriver and caught a few more. Finally, I broke off that productive hare’s ear in the middle of the stream, and decided it was time to go.  Hopped in the car, and was home in 1 hour. Not very big fish, but many of them, and very close to town.  Also, there’s always that chance for a summer steelie . Now I’m considering a 3 or 4wt for this kind of fishing, as they aren’t much fun to fight on a 6wt.  I’ve read that the fish in these streams are rarely as large as 12", and those are only found around the reservoir and above and below the power station.  I considered my 9" rainbow to be a lunker.  I could have left the reel at home. -yuf

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Question:

This is mutating the topic somewhat, but here goes: I like the "Trilene knot" quite a bit.  It retains much of the original line strength and is just as easy to tie as a regular clinch knot.  The name irritates me, however.  Can a line company truly lay claim to a knot?  Must we make an advertisement for somebody every time we teach someone this knot?  Is it known by any other name? Pete C

Response:

If you’d be satisfied with a guess, the name could have originated simply because it was a knot initially devised by a surgeon in a fishing club: "Hey, where’d you learn that knot?"   "It’s the surgeon’s knot."

I do hope that this isn’t the case! My researches would really go down the plug hole, were it so. The mind boggles at the possibilities: the ‘bond traders’ hitch for tying up your mule; the ‘gynaecologists twist’ for wire shock tippets; the ‘lawyers loop’ (not safe; too slippery!) ….. the possibilities are endless. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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<all the good stuff snipped (this is going to get confusing).

Funny thing about knots; while I’ve never had any trouble tying them, talking about them has always made my head spin.  Reading back through this thread I find myself getting a bit dizzy. TL!

Response:

Tony; After giving the matter some more thought I believe I can clear up how, if not when, the knot we use to tie on tippet became known as the "surgeon’s knot".

<rest snipped and neatly tied off with a surgeon’s knot… Your description is right Wolfgang.  As a Vascular and Thoracic surgeon, I think I can speak with some knowledge on such things  Basically, a surgeon’s knot is a reef knot, usually tied with one hand against the held-out strand of the other end of the ‘thread’.  The double-throw variant is also used for extra security when needed. By that, I mean TWICE round instead of once per layer as in the simple reef knot.   Usually, the reef knot is extended by several more ‘throws’ however – it is not common to use just the two throws, or layers.  Many surgical suture materials are monofilament and slippery, to aid in passing through tissues without cutting through, so they tend to slip when knotted, therefore most surgeons would tie at least 5 throws in these materials, with perhaps 3 in braided materials that slip less. There are obviously numerous variations also, such as deliberately tying a ‘granny’ knot – both throws in the same direction rather than opposite directions – so that the knot can be ’snugged’ down while still having some friction, then finishing off with a throw in the opposite direction to lock the knot. The "Surgeon’s Knot" as described in the fishing books is nothing like a ‘real’ surgeon’s knot.  I don’t know how it got its name. — Pete, Brisbane, Australia To reply by email, remove the "SPAMLESS" from the address in the header.

Response:

I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers. In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted. My difficulty is that the modern appellation of this knot as the ’surgeons knot’ seems to be relatively modern. Practising surgeons (non-anglers) stare at you blankly when you show them this knot. The great American authority on knots, the late Prof. Cyrus Lawrence Day, shows a completely different knot in his ‘The Art of Knotting and Splicing’. The surgeon’s knot Day shows looks more akin to a ‘reef knot’ (’square knot’), except that there are two turns of the strands on the top and bottom edges of the knot (when viewed as normally tied). At present, I am inclined to think that ’surgeon’s knot’ (for what the term is currently, popularly, understood to mean) is a relatively modern appropriation (misappropriation) of the name. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ordinarily, a square knot is tied by making an overhand knot and then following it with another, making sure that the second is opposed to the first; left over right and then right over left (repeating left over right or right over left twice will result in a granny knot, notorious for slipping).  In making sutures, the suture material is wound once or twice around the needle holder which is then used to grasp the tag end and pull it through the loop.  When the material is wound twice around the needle holder the result is still an overhand knot; the ends merely twist around each other twice rather than the usual once.  In order to finish the square knot a surgeon repeats the process being careful to wind the material in the opposite direction from the first time.

Very interesting Wolfgang. What you have described is exactly the ’surgeon’s knot’, as described by Cyrus Day, as I cited in my original post. That’s good for me, because it supports the current use of the name for that particular knot (i.e., a ’square knot’ with two twists along each edge). Your earlier post, re. the ‘water knot’ you have used in climbing and the method of its construction is exactly that described by Day in his book. I suspect that the single overhand ‘water knot’ was adequate as an angler’s knot in the days of horsehair. The two, three and four turn versions were clearly developed to produce a safe knot when using the slippery synthetic line materials that came along later. Going back to the ’surgeon’s knot’, you mentioned the ‘granny knot’ as being unsafe cf. the ’square knot’ (which in Britain we more usually call the ‘reef knot’). In the 1991 edition of ‘Practical Fishing Knots’, by Sosin and Kreh, the authors describe what they call the ’simple blood knot’. This is nothing like a normal ‘blood knot’, but is slightly similar to the real ’surgeons knot’ as you described (this is going to get confusing). The big difference is that it is in fact a ‘granny knot’, but with seven twists along the two parallel edges of the box. It looks odd, but Sosin and Kreh claim nearly 100% knot efficiency for it. Thanks for the posts: interesting, but doesn’t really get me closer to tracking down when the two turn ‘water knot’ started being called the ’surgeons knot’. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers.

If you’d be satisfied with a guess, the name could have originated simply because it was a knot initially devised by a surgeon in a fishing club: "Hey, where’d you learn that knot?"   "It’s the surgeon’s knot."   Even in that context, it could still have origins in medical usage while not necessarily keeping its surgical configuration.   If you get a real answer, please share it. Joe F.

Response:

Hi Tony :   The Surgeon’s knot is the ones described by the other people in their replies, as a double and then a stacked set of two single throws that is used to close an incision. The knot that we use to tie on leaders etc. that we call a surgeon’s knot is also used to join Rib Stitch cord that is used to hold the cloth covering onto an airplane wing when the stitcher has misjudged the length and needs a bit more to finish the rib correctly.   Just thought that you might find it of interest.    Jim Rahn    Guelph, Ontario,    Canada – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers. In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted. My difficulty is that the modern appellation of this knot as the ’surgeons knot’ seems to be relatively modern. Practising surgeons (non-anglers) stare at you blankly when you show them this knot. The great American authority on knots, the late Prof. Cyrus Lawrence Day, shows a completely different knot in his ‘The Art of Knotting and Splicing’. The surgeon’s knot Day shows looks more akin to a ‘reef knot’ (’square knot’), except that there are two turns of the strands on the top and bottom edges of the knot (when viewed as normally tied). At present, I am inclined to think that ’surgeon’s knot’ (for what the term is currently, popularly, understood to mean) is a relatively modern appropriation (misappropriation) of the name. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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Tony; After giving the matter some more thought I believe I can clear up how, if not when, the knot we use to tie on tippet became known as the "surgeon’s knot". In addition to climbing rock and replacing more tippet than I care to think about, I have also done some surgical procedures on rats, and a great deal of woodworking. As a result of the woodworking I have had sutures put into every one of my fingers at one time or another. Having watched the procedure so often I know that the knots surgeons use are the same as the ones I use on rats; they are in fact simple square knots.  A square knot is, or course, simply two stacked overhand knots.  Ordinarily, a square knot is tied by making an overhand knot and then following it with another, making sure that the second is opposed to the first; left over right and then right over left (repeating left over right or right over left twice will result in a granny knot, notorious for slipping).  In making sutures, the suture material is wound once or twice around the needle holder which is then used to grasp the tag end and pull it through the loop.  When the material is wound twice around the needle holder the result is still an overhand knot; the ends merely twist around each other twice rather than the usual once.  In order to finish the square knot a surgeon repeats the process being careful to wind the material in the opposite direction from the first time. When two (or possibly even more) turns are taken around the needle holder before drawing tight it is exactly the same procedure as we perform in tying on tippet material.  The only real difference is that the surgeon performs this procedure on a single strand as opposed to the two that we use in making the "surgeon’s knot."  A casual observer would easily be fooled into thinking that the fisherman and the surgeon are doing exactly the same thing.  The error is almost certainly compounded by the fact that many of us use a hemostat to help tie our knot in the stream.  Not only is the process the same, we even use the same (to the untrained eye) tool. Sound plausible?

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Wolfgang, Your description of how to tie the knot during surgery is correct. The surgeon’s knot is a knot that uses a self-retaining frictional hitch for the first throw. The two wraps in the first throw create more friction between the strands so that tissue layers that want to pull apart are held in apposition while the second throw is placed. A variant on this theme is to do three wraps on the first throw if there is a lot of tension between the tissue edges. However, the subsequent wrap is then two throws instead of one so the knot will not be too assymetric (which creates problems with knot security). The surgeon’s knot is only used when there is sufficient tension to pull the edges you are trying to appose apart while you are doing the second throw, otherwise suturing is done with a square knot (there are some caveats to this generality). I suspect that the flyfishing surgeon’s knot was given that name because it visually resembles the surgeon’s knot used for suturing (even though its structure is totally different). My guess is that it was named by someone with some familiarity with it in the medical context. However, I would be surprised if it was a surgeon since it is a different knot and surgeons are somewhat picky about naming knots and suture patterns. Cheers. Jon McAnulty

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<snip In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted.

<snip I’m not sure I can help you on this one Tony; in fact, I may muddy the waters a bit more.  I’ve done a bit of rock climbing over the years and used what climbers refer to as a water knot to form loops in webbing or to join two pieces of webbing together (webbing is tubular woven nylon which has been pressed flat).  The climber’s water knot starts with a simple overhand knot tied near the end of a piece of webbing.  To make a loop, the other end is pushed back through the overhand knot following (in reverse) the path of the original end. Tying two pieces of webbing together is done in exactly the same fashion.  The only difference is that one uses the ends of two pieces rather than both ends of one piece.  The effect is essentially the same as the fisherman’s ’surgeon’s knot’ except that there is only one turn as opposed to the three or four used in the surgeon’s knot.  So, at bottom, the only real difference between the two knots is the number of turns taken, unless one thinks that the method of tying is significant.  The water knot used by climbers is the same as the surgeon’s knot used by fishermen.  Of course, I don’t know whether the climber’s water knot is the same as the one you made reference to. Hope this helps. TL.

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Question:

Hello fisherman: I have a fresh water fishing bulletin board for posting any fresh water info you would like… my web site is FISHING… stop in, post some info at: http://www.clearlight.com/~tyrone… info welcome from any where in the world…. fly fishing also… fresh or saltwater..

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Hello fisherman: I have a fresh water fishing bulletin board for posting any fresh water info you would like… my web site is FISHING… stop in, post some info at: http://www.clearlight.com/~tyrone… info welcome from any where in the world…. fly fishing also… fresh or saltwater..

I DID CHECK IT OUT.  NOTHING THRILLING!

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Fish Location, Log, and Map Analysis Program. Helps locate fish and suggests places and baits. Add maps to your fishing log/diary! Log contains:   Fish type,                 Where caught ( Map to use )                 Time and date                 Temp. air and water at depth caught                 Weather front information                 Sky conditions                 Bait and Presentation                 Caught by                 Weight, Length, Girth                 Water clarity                 Water current                 Barometric readings Reports can sort and analyze all the above.  Reports can group, up to three, categories of the above in any combination. See data for all fish caught grouped by the lunar cycle caught, what the weather front information was, and the barometric conditions at the time! Plus hundreds more, all to your specs. Using your history, Fish Traker can look at any map entered into Fish Traker and show you where to look by matching your past history conditions and the time you intend to go out! Analyze maps by your successes not someone’s guesses. Great for tournament fishing! All maps and reports print to any graphics printer. FREE demo available by going to GO TO in the main menu and select Search Software Libraries.   Use ‘fishlite’ for the search key and select Search.  Down load the latest version.  Windows ‘95 and NT users do not need the WIN32s supporting DLLs.   The production release contains the WIN32s DLLs needed to run if you do need them or just Search for WIN32s in the Search function and download that also.  Unzip or copy the data to a disk and install Fish Traker from diskette. $29.95 + $2 S/H   Check/MO/ MasterCard/Visa accepted GB Software MS 1 Box 125 Oxford Junction, IA 52323 (319) 486 2277

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Question:

Can someone let me know what conditions near State College are now and what they look like for this weekend?

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The area got hit with a lot of rain this past weekend and streams went high again.  The forecast is for rain tonight and tomorrow morning and possible showers for the next few days.  Only if we don’t receive significant precipitation will the streams be fishable. Dave Rothrock

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The area got hit with a lot of rain this past weekend and streams went high again.  The forecast is for rain tonight and tomorrow morning and possible showers for the next few days.  Only if we don’t receive significant precipitation will the streams be fishable. Dave Rothrock

Hi Dave I missed the original post.  What part of PA mare we talking about? If it is central PA (i.e State College area), how has the fishing been so far this spring? Ed Sowinski

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Question:

There is only one place in Guatemala, Iztapa. Pangas go for $300 per day with lunch and drinks, 31′ Bertrams around $800. There are hotels at around $15/ person, but they’re pretty scuzzy. You’re much better off with the best places at around $75 per night, double. You can get there by renting a car, a hired van or a bus, but you’ll waste a whole day by taking the bus. If you want more details call me at 516 668 2019. I can set up everything for you.   Gene Kelly

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I just got back from Guatemala and caught one sail on the fly rod. We caught eight on standard tackle the first day but we had my wifes cousins with us and I didn’t try the light tackle. The second and third days were slower and we had trouble with too many dolphin around. I arrange trips throughout Central America and can help you out. Give me a call at 516 668 2019 and I’ll give you all the details about the cheap way to go as well as the moderate way to go.                                 Gene Kelly

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Looking for any info on opportunities in Guat, particularly Pacific side. Would appreciate any advice, contaacts, starting points etc.

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: Looking for any info on opportunities in Guat, particularly Pacific side. : Would appreciate any advice, contaacts, starting points etc. Ken Johnson at Guatemala Unlimited has all the info and can make the arrangements. Guatemala Unlimited http://members.aol.com/guatemala1/html/guatunl.htm good luck, james

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Question:

Hope some people can help me out with some feedback. I have heard some good, some bad news about St.Croix rods. I personally own a 13′ float rod from St.Croix and enjoy using it quite alot. However, I am interested in purchasing 1 or 2 flyrods, (one for steelhead, and another for some 4/5 weight summer dry flyfishing). Before I plunk my cash down for a St.Croix, are they any users out there that would recommend (or not) purchasing a St.Croix? Thanks in advance for your feedback. colin

Colin, I recently purchased a St. Croix Imperial 8 wt. travel rod.  I used it in Grand Cayman to bonefish.  I love it.  My guide did some casting with it and is going to buy one himself. Tom Conner

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Hope some people can help me out with some feedback. I have heard some good, some bad news about St.Croix rods. I personally own a 13′ float rod from St.Croix and enjoy using it quite alot. However, I am interested in purchasing 1 or 2 flyrods, (one for steelhead, and another for some 4/5 weight summer dry flyfishing). Before I plunk my cash down for a St.Croix, are they any users out there that would recommend (or not) purchasing a St.Croix? Thanks in advance for your feedback. colin

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Hi Colin:         Like you I have a 13 foot float rod . I built it last November and I like it fine. I extended the butt section to make it 13′ 8" when I fitted the handle. From the articles posted on other fishing newsgroups in the past, the comments re St. Croix  seem quite positive.  St. Croix may not be as expensive as many but they seem to be good quality blanks and from what I hear they honour their warrantee. Grant

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I also own two St. Croix rods, one a 10′ 9/10 wt and the other a 15′ Spey rod. Both are giving me excellent service in both fresh and salt water. Neither is quite as good as the really top end rods, but I suspect I’m not a good enough caster to have it make any difference. ( BTW, the inevitable gear dunking that occurs while surf fishing in salt doesn’t concern me as much with a more reasonably priced rod.)

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: Hope some people can help me out with some feedback. I have heard some : good, some bad news about St.Croix rods. I personally own a 13′ float : rod from St.Croix and enjoy using it quite alot. : However, I am interested in purchasing 1 or 2 flyrods, (one for : steelhead, and another for some 4/5 weight summer dry flyfishing). : Before I plunk my cash down for a St.Croix, are they any users out there : that would recommend (or not) purchasing a St.Croix? You won’t go wrong with a St. Croix rod. We have sold a lot of them at the shop, and the customers are alwats satisfied with them. Some like them better than the high end rods out there. We have had St. Croix rods come in to sent back for repair. Usually, it was the customers falt for the problem. There have been many times that the work was done for free – especially if the rod was new. They may not do this for you, but lets hope you never need it!

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Question:

Next week I’ll go fishing the skagit R. Someone have any idea on what kind of flies I should use?

I fish the Skagit on the Canadian side quite frequently. I believe that it opens July 1st though so check your regs. Also catch and release only now. I have had most of my success with basic Nymph patterns, and Mosquito immitations.Also had one great day using Royal Coachmen{hooked over 30 14-16" fish in a couple of hours fishing a back channel} never had another day like it there since though. But always do well.Try fishing with sink tip line as close to bottom as you can get in deeper runs, exspecially if water on low-clear side..                Good Luck!!

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the skagit river flows from south west British Columbia… our Government is in constant battle with the U.S. over further damming of the river which would flood one of the most Beautiful valleys in the world.

We’re good at that. The Glen Canyon of the Colorado in northern Arizona, now Lake Powell, was by all accounts and the testimony of photographs, THE most beautiful canyon in the world. Good luck.

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the skagit river flows from south west British Columbia,headwaters in the Manning Park area into a Man Made lake {Ross Lake} it is then Dammed in Washington State and then flows through Northern Washington into the Pacific.I fish it on the Canadian side only and our Government is in constant battle with the U.S. over further damming of the river which would flood one of the most Beautiful valleys in the world.

Actually, the various BC governments have *not* done battle with the US over the Skagit. The Skagit is close enough to Vancouver (which is very important politically in BC). When Seattle City Light wanted to raise Ross Dam and flood more of the Skagit, the BC government had a better idea – they built the Seven Mile Dam on the Pend d’Oreille (the Kootenays being of less importance politically), thus flooding the falls which kept coarse fish out of the Salmo River, and sold the power so SCL. — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

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  The dambuilding regieme [in particular the WAC Socreds] in British Columbia had an international reputation of "Profit first" environmentalism [comparatively, the present government is elligible for sainthood ]. One particular Rodderick H.Brown quote sets the way I used to feel about the rape of BC rivers at the expense of fish. "I hate practically everything British Columbia stands for today–the shoddy, uncaring devellopment of our natural resources, the Chamber of Commerce mentality which favors short-term material gain over all other considerations, the utter contempt for human values of any kind.  I hate and despise the trivial provincial mentality that denies Canada’s national heritage, which seeks petty advantage at cost to the common weal, which resists every vital Canadian concept and the whole range of modern knowledge and communication which can make the Canadian ideal a reality.  I apologize to the rest of Canada for this narrow lack of faith and vision."                        – Roderick Haig-Brown, June 21,1965. Actually, the various BC governments have *not* done battle with the US

over the Skagit. Water rights are pretty well Federal jurisdiction IF the despute is with a foreign country [in this case, the United States]. The Skagit is close enough to Vancouver (which is very important politically in BC). When Seattle City Light wanted to raise Ross Dam and flood more of the Skagit, the BC government had a better idea – they built the Seven Mile Dam on the Pend d’Oreille (the Kootenays being of less importance politically).

A lot of truth to this . . . When Seven Mile went in, the province was essentially being run from Howe Street in Vancouver [the financial backbone of B.C.]. Kryten// — @         0r

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Woahhh! Before you all go off fishin’ the Skagit, be aware that the

Out of curiosity, where is the Skagit? Tim

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 Out of curiosity, where is the Skagit? Tim the skagit river flows from south west British Columbia,headwaters in the Manning Park area

into a Man Made lake {Ross Lake} it is then Dammed in Washington State and then flows through Northern Washington into the Pacific.I fish it on the Canadian side only and our Government is in constant battle with the U.S. over further damming of the river which would flood one of the most Beautiful valleys in the world.

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the skagit river flows from south west British Columbia,headwaters in the Manning Park area into a Man Made lake {Ross Lake} it is then Dammed in Washington State and then flows through Northern Washington into the Pacific.I fish it on the Canadian side only and our Government is in constant battle with the U.S. over further damming of the river which would flood one of the most Beautiful valleys in the world.

If you need a US partner in blowing those damned dams on the Skagit the hell out of there, let me know.  Those damn dams gag that river.  Sadly a common story though.  However, I would be surprised if further proposed dams would ever possibly be built these days.  Thanks to interest groups, the plight of fish etc. as it relates to dams on rivers seems to be more near the front of people’s minds.   -tgades —

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Next week I’ll go fishing the skagit R.

The Skagit River in Washington state?  You know of course that your post is read all over the world.   Someone have any idea on what kind of flies I should use?

To catch what?  Steelhead?  Dolly Varden?  Cutthroat?   Are you fishing low or high on the river. It’d be easier to help if you answered some of these essential questions. -tgades —

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Next week I’ll go fishing the skagit R. Someone have any idea on what kind of flies I should use?

        I’m assuming that you’re fishing the upstream Canadian stretch in southwestern BC, where there is a lovely flyfishing only C & R stretch.         For all necessary info, contact Ruddick’s Fly Shop in Vancouver, tel: 604-434-2420.         I’ve fished it twice and the usual nymph patters (PTN, GRHE, Prince) and a green bodied caenis (#16 or #18) and Adams work.         Tight lines…

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Next week I’ll go fishing the skagit R. The Skagit River in Washington state?  You know of course that your post is read all over the world.  

The Skagit R. in British Columbia Someone have any idea on what kind of flies I should use? To catch what?  Steelhead?  Dolly Varden?  Cutthroat?   Are you fishing low or high on the river.

I’llbe fishing for Rainbows and also Dolly Varden.  I’ll be fishing at low river.                                                    Tks again                                                     Eric

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Next week I’ll go fishing the skagit R. Someone have any idea on what kind of flies I should use? A reply would be appreciated since I’m a novice at this sport                                                    TKS.

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Woahhh! Before you all go off fishin’ the Skagit, be aware that the river does not open on the Canadian side until July 1!!!! Even then there are C&R and other restrictions, so read the regs. My son and I were fishing there last year and I was approached by some very suspicous looking individuals who claimed they were just curious to see the fish. It was interesting to note they did not look like tourists and were carrying a net and wore waders. Can we say GAME WARDENs? My point is, check the regs and be aware that I believe the river is patrolled by officials who do not announce their intentions. On a positive note, the Skagit is beautiful and deserves all the respect it can get. I understand that over the years it has been threatened by dams and netting for meat. Fortunately there are people (Ted Peck included) who have managed to protect it for us and I think we should ensure its continued protection. The Skagit ‘bows are the most beautiful I have ever seen! The valley is a piece of paradise, especially when you work your way to the West side as far away from road access as possible. B.

: Next week I’ll go fishing the skagit R. : Someone have any idea on what kind of flies I should use? : A reply would be appreciated since I’m a novice at this sport   :                                                  TKS.

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Question:

Looking for info on effectiveness of home page for a fly shop.  Trying to convince the local shop I haunt to go electronic.  How’s it working?

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Has anyone seen any Fly shops advertising on the net.  Please Email your answer to me as I can’t always use the net as often as I would like.  My Thanks Ken L.

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Hey Mike, Love to send you our Catalog on a Disk, just send me your Postal Address and we’ll get it right off.  Oh, by the way we will have our Home Page up and running in a very short time…2-3 weeks, Best regards, Tom and Lyle King of the Hill Fly Fishing Co. P.O. Box 304 Addison, IL 60101 1-800-FISH-670

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Hey Mike, Love to send you our Catalog on a Disk, just send me your Postal Address and we’ll get it right off.  Oh, by the way we will have our Home Page up and running in a very short time…2-3 weeks, Best regards, Tom and Lyle King of the Hill Fly Fishing Co. P.O. Box 304 Addison, IL 60101 1-800-FISH-670

I just wanted to mention that I received a catalog from Tom within just a few days after I sent him my address.  I thought the catalog was well laid out and very easy to use.  My bosses boss is also a die-hard flyfisherman (that has nothing to do why I work here) and  I showd it to him as well. His first comment was "I have no use for this. It doesn’t have any pictures." That may be something that you’ll want to keep in mind when creating the home page.  For example, he is in the market for a pontoon boat or high quality float tube.  There were several of them listed but without pictures or a description more than one line long it’s pretty difficult to select one of them. Overall I thought the catalog was pretty good.  It wasn’t all hype nor make any wild claims about "the lowest price in town" or any of that other marketing B.S.  It could use more work but it’s a good start. — John Fereira "Guru of Miscellany" Pleasanton, CA "Ask me about my vow of silence."

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Question:

Does anyone know a mail-order outfit (name, phone num) that carries the velco-tie style of felt-sole wading shoe?

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Does anyone know a mail-order outfit (name, phone num) that carries the velco-tie style of felt-sole wading shoe?

I got a velcro-cloe pair from Hook and Hackle (in NY) a couple of years ago.  They have held up just fine.  They have an 800 #, but its at home and I’m not….  They usually advertise in the fly fishing magazines…. Nat Davis Virginia Tech.

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Path:

msuinfo!uwm.edu!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!new s.du
ke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!usenet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: dulcimer.ee.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-NUPop-Charset: English Does anyone know a mail-order outfit (name, phone num) that carries the velco-tie style of felt-sole wading shoe? I got a velcro-cloe pair from Hook and Hackle (in NY) a couple of years ago.  They have held up just fine.  They have an 800 #, but its at home and I’m not….  They usually advertise in the fly fishing magazines…. Nat Davis Virginia Tech.

The brand of velcro-ties I have is Pro-Line; they have held up for two seasons, and are great to have with cold, gloved hands. Mine are one size larger than my normal shoe size for the neoprenes. I bought mine at a store in Kalamazoo, but I have seen them in Bass Pro and other catalogs. Jim Johnson Michigan State University

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Does anyone know a mail-order outfit (name, phone num) that carries the velco-tie style of felt-sole wading shoe? I got a velcro-cloe pair from Hook and Hackle (in NY) a couple of years ago.  They have held up just fine.  They have an 800 #, but its at home and I’m not….  They usually advertise in the fly fishing magazines…. Nat Davis Virginia Tech.

Hook and Hackle’s number is 1-800-552-8342.  The shoes in question are made by Pro-Line and cost $32.25.  I bought Pro-Line’s 44mm neoprene stocking-foot waders from H&H for $65 and have been reasonably satisfied with the product. Hook and Hackle respond efficiently and have good prices. Peter Just

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