Question:

This morning, 4/22, I looked out my window, in Northern New Jersey, and saw a mayfly on the glass.  Spinner, size 14, two tails, light grey/dun underside, heavily segmented abdomen, very small second wings.  These show up on my back door and back windows in small numbers every April.  Any opinions on possible species/genus? Beyond the question of what it was, I wondered where the dickens it came from. The lake is 150 yards away in a straight line from the front door.  And it gets very warm in summer; tosses up a ton of bug life but not mayflys.  There are some small springs about 200 yards away to the rear of the house but I didn’t think they survived the summers.  Now I have visions of a relict population of Brook Trout hiding in the town land behind me. Something to think about until I can go fishing. Glenn GKT

Response:

You don’t give much information except grey underside and two tails.  The only thing I can think of that comes close to a size 14 is Callibaetis americanus This is no guarantee that I’ve identified it correctly but this is the may fly that fits best what you say. George Gehrke "May Days are here"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This morning, 4/22, I looked out my window, in Northern New Jersey, and saw a mayfly on the glass.  Spinner, size 14, two tails, light grey/dun underside, heavily segmented abdomen, very small second wings.  These show up on my back door and back windows in small numbers every April.  Any opinions on possible species/genus? Beyond the question of what it was, I wondered where the dickens it came from. The lake is 150 yards away in a straight line from the front door.  And it gets very warm in summer; tosses up a ton of bug life but not mayflys.  There are some small springs about 200 yards away to the rear of the house but I didn’t think they survived the summers.  Now I have visions of a relict population of Brook Trout hiding in the town land behind me. Something to think about until I can go fishing. Glenn GKT

Response:

Question:

Nifty little 5 oz flask packadged with bottles of Cutty Sark for holiday giving.  Keep the flask, slap a bow on the Cutty Sark and give it to your brother-in-law.  Or keep the Cutty Sark and use it to cut Carolan’s Irish Creme 50/50 (that stuffs too sweet and sticky to drink by itself, but no use adding the good stuff to it).  Or use the Cutty Sark to clean your pipe collection. Flask is stainless steel with a charcoal finish, hinged cap keeper, lovingly hand-crafted in far-off and exotic China. The healthful benefits of having a wee nip to keep away the dew while flyfishing cannot be overstressed, and of course, it is unethical to bring a fine fish to hand without toasting his merry health afterwards. And, as is well known, purported "flyfishermen" who drink beer, are actually closet bait-fisherman who are afraid to touch worms. Anyway, nice little flask, it would look really fine with some MacCallan or Famous Grouse in it. Timothy Juvenal

Response:

And, as is well known, purported "flyfishermen" who drink beer, are actually closet bait-fisherman who are afraid to touch worms.

        good post.  many will agree. wayno, courageous even though ominous rumblings are heard from the direction of chambana, illiniville…

Response:

And, as is well known, purported "flyfishermen" who drink beer, are actually closet bait-fisherman who are afraid to touch worms. good post.  many will agree. wayno, courageous even though ominous rumblings are heard from the direction of chambana, illiniville…

Well, here’s one beer drinking flyfisher who ain’t afeared to touch worms. Had a lot of fun at a couple of ROFFian claves feeding them to scotch drinkers who may have had one glass too many.        :) Wolfgang no pictures please!

Response:

"Wolfgang"  wrote … Well, here’s one beer drinking flyfisher who ain’t afeared to touch worms. Had a lot of fun at a couple of ROFFian claves feeding them to scotch drinkers who may have had one glass too many.        :)

Ahh, it seems beer has indeed impaired your thinking: 1.  No such thing as too much Scotch. 2.  Tequilla drinkers are the ones you have to watch out for around the worms.  And of course, watch out for those Saki drinkers around cut bait. 8^)

Timothy Juvenal

Response:

Question:

I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Pass Lake: Fine black chenille body on a size 14 standard dry fly hook.  The tail is mallard flank clipped short just behind the bend.  Three turns of brown hackle.  White calf tail wing tied trude style.  I can’t imagine anyone having any difficulty identifying the pass lake based on this description…….it doesn’t even vaguely resemble anything else I have ever seen.  I would be much surprised if it could be confused with anyone else’s contribution.  Besides, it should be the only one you get without a tag on it.    :) This is allegedly a dry fly, but with the chenille body it tends to absorb water readily.  In fact, it floats or sinks pretty much at its own discretion.  However, it has proven very effective for me whether floating high and dry, floundering in the meniscus, or completely submerged.  Not only does it not resemble any other fly I have ever seen, but the same can be said for its affinity to anything that has ever lived in a lake or stream.  Nevertheless, both trout and bluegills (and all their kin) take it readily.  Dead drifting, skittering across the surface, slow retrieve or twitching below the surface, and simply hanging in the current have all worked at various time under a variety of conditions. Any experienced tier should have no trouble figuring out how to put this one together.  One important note though:  calf tail is very slippery; don’t try to make a small neat head on this one.  I make the heads relatively long and thick in order to get a lot of thread holding the wing in place.  Be very liberal in this regard or you will find the calf tail falling out.  Newbies feel free to email me for specific instructions. Sorry Frank, I tried to be good!

Response:

 Incidentally, I have caught many fish on the Pass Lake by just letting it hang in the current downstream while watching a partner fish.  Any similar experience with the Rio Grande King?

Especially when caddis are hatching, once the fly begins to drag I submerge it, give it slack and fish it like a downstream wet.  Get lots of fish during the swing and even hanging directly downstream.  These are usually smaller fish.  The better fish I’ve caught on the pattern have been fish tight against the bank that hit the fly when partially submerged. Willi

Response:

You might be right Warren, I’ve called in the FBI to have the box and all those little buggers checked for fingerprints…but if the miscreant who removed those tags wuz wearin’ expensive Italian shoes and blood-soaked gloves, we’ll never get a conviction! Frank (coppin’ out) Church

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s OK Warren, the old tired grey swapmeister will tag ‘em for ya both, I love helping out those less fortunate than me. )….."and barbless hooks don’t help anything either"….shoulda been one of these there  :-) (I gotta take longer naps) Thanks Frank.  I will keep investigating to see who it was that didn’t tag their flies.  It wasn’t me, because I had mine all tagged.  I spent a lot of time tagging those damn things so if they arrived without tags it must have been the postal service and their latest anti-terrorism technology that made them disappear. Of course the flies were probably damaged too during the process, so keep that in mind.<g Warren X#-[ Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

You might be right Warren, I’ve called in the FBI to have the box and all those little buggers checked for fingerprints…but if the miscreant who removed those tags wuz wearin’ expensive Italian shoes and blood-soaked gloves, we’ll never get a conviction!

Or what if it was Richard Jewel?  They’ll never prove Bubba did it! <g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

That’s OK Warren, the old tired grey swapmeister will tag ‘em for ya both, I love helping out those less fortunate than me. )….."and barbless hooks don’t help anything either"….shoulda been one of these there  :-) (I gotta take longer naps)

Thanks Frank.  I will keep investigating to see who it was that didn’t tag their flies.  It wasn’t me, because I had mine all tagged.  I spent a lot of time tagging those damn things so if they arrived without tags it must have been the postal service and their latest anti-terrorism technology that made them disappear. Of course the flies were probably damaged too during the process, so keep that in mind.<g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Well, OK Wolfie..I’ll forgive you just this once, but all you really needed to do was put yer moniker and the name of the fly on the tag.  I can see why the tag would be the size of a legal paper with all that recipe on it. And barbless hooks don’t help anything either.

Well Wolfie, you aren’t the only one that bagged them without taggin’ them.  I know there was another dirty, rotten s.o.b. out there that didn’t do it either.  For the life of me I can’t remember his name or what he tied, but I know he is out there <g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

That’s OK Warren, the old tired grey swapmeister will tag ‘em for ya both, I love helping out those less fortunate than me. )….."and barbless hooks don’t help anything either"….shoulda been one of these there  :-) (I gotta take longer naps) OTGS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, OK Wolfie..I’ll forgive you just this once, but all you really needed to do was put yer moniker and the name of the fly on the tag.  I can see why the tag would be the size of a legal paper with all that recipe on it. And barbless hooks don’t help anything either. Well Wolfie, you aren’t the only one that bagged them without taggin’ them. I know there was another dirty, rotten s.o.b. out there that didn’t do it either. For the life of me I can’t remember his name or what he tied, but I know he is out there <g Warren X#-[ Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Actually the fly is very similar to a Rio Grande King or Rio Grande Trude….

Thank you Willi.  And now that you have made everyone aware of the distinctions between the Rio Grande King and my own humble offering NOBODY has any excuse to confuse it with anything else that arrives in their goody boxes!  Incidentally, I have caught many fish on the Pass Lake by just letting it hang in the current downstream while watching a partner fish.  Any similar experience with the Rio Grande King? Wolfgang who is hoping oh so fervently that he will be able to put his fly swap rejects to work this weekend!

Response:

Good idea posting the recipe Wolfgang.  BTW – I made my tags stay on by coating the paper front and back with scotch(tm) tape. Here is the recipe for the Teco Bug (or Teko Bug – I’ve seen it spelled both ways). The Teco Bug was originated about 40 years by Dick Blair and some other guys long who fish the Westfield River here in Western Massachusetts.  The lower stretches of the river have lots of dragonfly nymphs and we think this fly imitates those and probably stonefly nymphs and the Isonychia.  Dick ties these in sizes 4 through 8, usually unweighted and never with a bead.  Most other people I know will either add lead or a bead head.  The ones I tied are on a size 8 Mustad 3906B nymph hook.  I also tie mine sparser and smaller than Dick.  He does two layers of the underfur before adding the guard hairs – he makes really fat buggy nymphs and has been very successful with those for lots of years.  I don’t fish the main stem of the Westfield, preferring the smaller feeder branches, and I think the sparser version does better up there and also in the ponds I fish.  Fish the Teco as a nymph (up and across, dead drift, and use an indicator if you want).  We also fish these like a streamer, down and across with short strips at the end of the swing, especially when fishing the Isonychia drift in August.  The name Teco (Teko) comes from Tekoa Mountain, a big rocky hill overlooking the Westfield River where Dick likes to fish. Bead Head Teco Bug No tail Thread: Danville 6/0 waxed, color to match fur Hook: Mustad 3906B or similar, size 4 through 12 (I usually use size Bead: cyclops eye (size to fit hook, 1/8" is good on a size Underbody: snowshoe hare body fur underfur Overbody: snowshoe hare guard hair (see description below) Wing: mallard flank feather Method: We tie these in silver (silver bead, gray fur, natural mallard), brown (silver or brass bead, brown fur, mallard dyed wood duck, or real wood duck if you have them) and olive (olive dyed rabbit, brass bead, olive dyed mallard). Put the bead on the hook.  You probably need to pinch down the barb. Coat shank well with thread back to the hook bend.  You can lock in the bead with thread, but I usually just build up a ball of dubbing.  For the sparse version, bring the thread up to the head.  For the fat version, bring the thread back to the hook bend. Cut off several bunches of fur (six is about right for a size and separate the underfur from the guard hairs.  This is critical to the fly – using blended dubbing and picking out guard hairs does not give a buggy enough appearance.  Swap hands so you are pinching the fur at the cut end and pinch the guardhairs with the thumb and forefinger of the other hand. Pull out the guard hairs and stack in neat piles for later use.  Tease out the piles of underfur and mix. Dub the underfur mixture and wrap a fairly cylindrical body.  The fat version does two layers of dubbing.  Both versions should end with the thread at the hook bend. The guard hairs are applied either by waxing the thread and dabbing the hairs on loosely, or by using a dubbing loop.  I prefer using a little wax and just sticking on the hairs.  If you’re using pre-waxed thread and you have the right touch, no additional wax is necessary.  Don’t spin them tight.  Wrap the guard hair dubbing up to the eye.  The idea is to apply all six bunches fairly evenly.  You should have lots of spiky hair sticking out in all directions.  If necessary, brush out more hairs with a piece of velcro. The mallard flank wing should use a symmetrical rounded feather.  Pick a decent feather and strip off the fluffy section.  The feather should extend about 1/2 hook shank length past the bend.  Wet your fingers and stroke the barbules to compact them.  Dick Blair just puts the feather in his mouth to wet it and pulls it through his lips to compact it – use your own judgement. Take two or three loose wraps of thread over the feather and position the feather, then pull the stem to bring the barbules under the wraps.  This further compacts the feather.  When it looks right, take a few tighter wraps to secure the feather. Make a wing case by taking the thread back about 1/4" under the feather and taking two loose wraps.  Then bring the thread back to the head and tie off. –Stan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Pass Lake:

Response:

<snip Apparently my spell checker doesn’t care about obviously stupid headers or it is deliberately out to get me.

Response:

Well, OK Wolfie..I’ll forgive you just this once, but all you really needed to do was put yer moniker and the name of the fly on the tag.  I can see why the tag would be the size of a legal paper with all that recipe on it. And barbless hooks don’t help anything either. YOT&GS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Sorry Frank, I tried to be good!

Response:

Actually the fly is very similar to a Rio Grande King or Rio Grande Trude, a fly that was very popular about 25 years ago in Colorado and Wyoming. The Rio Grande traditionally has a golden tinsel tag and the tail is made of golden pheasant tippets, but there were many variations. I tie mine very similar to your Pass Creek, but use brown hackle for the tail (one less material to get out) and I often tie it on a 2X long hook. I also like the versatility of this fly.  Like you stated, it can be fished dry, damp or wet and can be fished dead drift or with various amount of action. Locally it has seemed to have fallen out of favor. It is one of several "old" patterns that I use that have been replaced by more modern, but not necessarily better, patterns. These "old" patterns, aside from being good flies in their own right, can sometimes turn the trick on fish that have seen alot of flies. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Pass Lake: Fine black chenille body on a size 14 standard dry fly hook.  The tail is mallard flank clipped short just behind the bend.  Three turns of brown hackle.  White calf tail wing tied trude style.  I can’t imagine anyone having any difficulty identifying the pass lake based on this description…….it doesn’t even vaguely resemble anything else I have ever seen.  I would be much surprised if it could be confused with anyone else’s contribution.  Besides, it should be the only one you get without a tag on it.    :) This is allegedly a dry fly, but with the chenille body it tends to absorb water readily.  In fact, it floats or sinks pretty much at its own discretion.  However, it has proven very effective for me whether floating high and dry, floundering in the meniscus, or completely submerged.  Not only does it not resemble any other fly I have ever seen, but the same can be said for its affinity to anything that has ever lived in a lake or stream.  Nevertheless, both trout and bluegills (and all their kin) take it readily.  Dead drifting, skittering across the surface, slow retrieve or twitching below the surface, and simply hanging in the current have all worked at various time under a variety of conditions. Any experienced tier should have no trouble figuring out how to put this one together.  One important note though:  calf tail is very slippery; don’t try to make a small neat head on this one.  I make the heads relatively long and thick in order to get a lot of thread holding the wing in place.  Be very liberal in this regard or you will find the calf tail falling out.  Newbies feel free to email me for specific instructions. Sorry Frank, I tried to be good!

Response:

Question:

I agree…I’ll never forget …I sent a friends brother a joke and of course the header contained all the addresses and names of other friends….this guy ’s brother sent everyone of them ads for his vitamins etc….I was very up[set that this guy would take advantage.. But people will do anything for a buck and fly fishing is no exception!

Response:

rummy,                                                                                  I think they all do it everywhere!It ain’t just here!From   Mr. G to me. (don’t confuse us though)Whether it’s proper or not I’m not sure !Oh by the way if your planning a trip to the Smokies I live here & I’m a guide & fltyer who specializes in southern appalachian patterns if you need any contact me at

Response:

What’s your point! Wayne to fish is human…to release divine (junk snipped)  comments on the above would be very interesting. Tom Montauk Point

Response:

Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all.   No matter how you cut it, they are commercial solicitations for business.   Is this what we want?  Is this the future of this site?  If this is what the majority wants its fine with me but it is a sure bet if this type of folksy ill-disguised  hustling continues unabated, it will eventually take over. comments on the above would be very interesting. Tom Montauk Point

Hi Tom:         Two of the people that I have the most respect for, on this group, are Bill Kiene and Al Beatty. Al’s been gone mostly since taking a job with Hoffman Hackle and that was our loss, especially in the area of tying techniques. Bill’s been a great source of info regarding product and destinations. I’ve never seen a post from either of them that they didn’t offer some valuable information often to questions that they’ve answered many times over the last few years.         Tag lines can also give some basis for credability in an uncontrolled medium that has more than it’s share of poor information. Bill knows what product passes through his store and how satisfied his clients are with that product. In a retail position he also handles and uses a lot more stuff than most of us are familiar with or will use in several years. When someone asks about travel destinations or lodges he can offer some good objective information as someone that’s been to a number of different places, rather than a guy that made one trip several years ago. The guy that went to Mexico once can offer some helpful info based on his trip but the guy I really want to hear from is the one who has been there at several different times, seasons and locations. He’s got the experience to compare one place or time from another.         I’ve been guiding in Southwest Alaska for several years and lived on the Kenai Peninsula prior to that. I generally restrict my responses to guestions of those areas,and when I do respond I’ll usually include the name of the lodge where I work.         I’ve been on this group since 93 and I post very little and read perhaps 10% of the threads here each day. I lost my interest a long time ago in answering another thread on the best way to tie on a dropper or how to cast with lead. I do however have a lot of respect for guys like Bill and Al that have offered  a lot of very good and objective information over the years and I’ve never seen them hyping themselves or their products. Jim McGrath

Response:

amazingly witty words: Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all.   No matter how you cut it, they are commercial solicitations for business.   Is this what we want?  Is this the future of this site?  If this is what the majority wants its fine with me but it is a sure bet if this type of folksy ill-disguised  hustling continues unabated, it will eventually take over. comments on the above would be very interesting. Tom Montauk Point

I feel there are two types of advertising.  On the one side there is the advertising that is actually benifitial to the consumer (and I don’t mean by the product being advertised).  For example, television commercials pay for the programing seen on the t.v., banners on websites allow for certain websites to remain open, etc.   Then there is the unacceptable (in my opinion) advertising.  For example, junk mail (I hate it), road side billboards (I hate ‘em even more), and spam (I REALLY hate this!).  This type of advertising does not provide the consumer with anything in return for the advertising. Now I bring up the point I want to make, Mr. G.  Where does he fall in these catagories?  Well, I feel that he (other than the accidental mass mailing) falls within the former.  He advertises in this group but, he also contributes more than probably 75% of the people that read ROFF.  Personally, I don’t like the advertising (I hate almost every form of it) but I feel that since Mr. G contributes so much to this group, he has earned the right to advertise (if you don’t like it, don’t read his posts). Brian (the slightly drunk and pondering) Hailey

Response:

 ….    Two of the people that I have the most respect for, on this group, are Bill Kiene and Al Beatty. Al’s been gone mostly since taking a job with Hoffman Hackle and that was our loss, especially in the area of tying techniques. Bill’s been a great source of info regarding product and destinations. …..

I talked to Al last night at the San Meteo Show and yes he is up to his neck in Hoffman feathers. He doesn’t read hear much or for that matter even post. He said he could be reached at the boards at the flyhop.com, mainly because he is the main judge of all the tying contests that Hoffman sponsors. — Doug Knight                                     metalfab<atpacbell.net Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $500.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

Very good point. The question is what can we do about it? It’s fine and dandy foe someone to advertize a personal sale of a rod, reel or other item he has no use for, but to push their commercial goods on this newsgroup is really cheap! Advertise in one or all of the many publications available. I’m sure more sales will come of that and less flyfishers will be offended. We need this space to share, inquire and discuss our hobby & sport. I don’t have the time or inclination to navigate through so much spam to find an interestig message. Get off our turf! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all.   No matter how you cut it, they are commercial solicitations for business.   Is this what we want?  Is this the future of this site?  If this is what the majority wants its fine with me but it is a sure bet if this type of folksy ill-disguised  hustling continues unabated, it will eventually take over. comments on the above would be very interesting. Tom Montauk Point

Response:

Tom your right that this is an interesting issue. I’d be interested to hear what other think as well. There is no question that get rich quick and send money message (or those promoting sex sites) are not appropriate for this board but what about those message that are related to fly fishing. I mean this is a fly fishing board and posts whether promoting a fly fishing product or a fly fishing site I think should be allowed and welcomed as this is related to the topic of the newsgroup right? Much like a fly fishing magazine you have great articles editorials, heck in resources like events listed and among all those great articles and resource you have ad related to the topic of the magazine promoting products and services related to fly fishing. It would be one thing to have someone post everyday saying the same thing its another thing when someone posts once a week or twice a month about something related to fly fishing that others might enjoy right? How does everyone feel about this. I’m very interested in others views as this has become a continuing problems for business owners, site owners, and newsgroup viewers as well as the general public related to spam message and unsolicited email and such. Thanks for bring this up Tom it was a good idea to get everyone talking about this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all.   No matter how you cut it, they are commercial solicitations for business.   Is this what we want?  Is this the future of this site?  If this is what the majority wants its fine with me but it is a sure bet if this type of folksy ill-disguised  hustling continues unabated, it will eventually take over.  comments on the above would be very interesting. Tom Montauk Point

Response:

Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all.

Yeah, I know how you feel. It used to bum me out too until I downloaded SpamOff!  (the usenet nntp filtering software that removes spam on the fly) from http://www.spamoff.com !   No matter how you cut it, they are commercial solicitations for business.   Is this what we want?  Is this the future of this site?  

It’s not what I want! In fact I think it’s high time we took charge of this situation.  A good first step is probably downloading SpamOff! from http://www.spamoff.com Maybe if none of us read their stupid ads they’ll go away! If this is what the majority wants its fine with me but it is a sure bet if this type of folksy ill-disguised  hustling continues unabated, it will eventually take over.

Sometimes I feel like it already has! Or I used to, anyway, in the pre-SpamOff! days. The days before some kind soul pointed me toward http://www.spamoff.com where I found the usenet nntp filtering software that removes spam on the fly.  comments on the above would be very interesting.

Actually there might be some more comments on one of my favorite WWW discussion forums, http://www.spamoff.com, there’s a message board on these types of issues on that site. (PS: While you’re there you might want to download a FREE demo version of SpamOff! It’s the usenet nntp filtering software that removes spam on the fly!)

Response:

Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all. Yeah, I know how you feel. It used to bum me out too until I downloaded SpamOff!  (the usenet nntp filtering software that removes spam on the fly) from http://www.spamoff.com !

Is this a spam for SpamOff? BTW, I couldn’t find a DNS entry for that URL. Maybe their server is down, or maybe they no longer exist.

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Yeah, I know how you feel. It used to bum me out too until I downloaded SpamOff!  (the usenet nntp filtering software that removes spam on the fly) from http://www.spamoff.com ! Is this a spam for SpamOff? BTW, I couldn’t find a DNS entry for that URL. Maybe their server is down, or maybe they no longer exist.

It was a joke…or at least that’s what I took it to be. Cute though.      - Ken — "Time is but the stream I go a-fishin in. I drink at it, but while I drink I see the sandy bottom and detect how shallow it is. It’s thin current slides away, but eternity remains."     – H.D. Thoreau

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        Two of the people that I have the most respect for, on this group, are Bill Kiene and Al Beatty. Al’s been gone mostly since taking a job with Hoffman Hackle and that was our loss, especially in the area of tying techniques. Bill’s been a great source of info regarding product and destinations. I’ve never seen a post from either of them that they didn’t offer some valuable information often to questions that they’ve answered many times over the last few years.

snip Jim – I agree completely.  Has the sun returned yet up there? mark Faulkner

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Smokey,     I come down to the smokey’s 3 or 4 times a year (sometimes I fish the motor trail on the north end of the park) Maybe we can hook up a time or two this year if the price is right ! Good Luck David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rummy,          I think they all do it everywhere!It ain’t just here!From   Mr. G to me. (don’t confuse us though)Whether it’s proper or not I’m not sure !Oh by the way if your planning a trip to the Smokies I live here & I’m a guide & fltyer who specializes in southern appalachian patterns if you need any contact me at

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(the usenet nntp filtering software that removes spam on the fly) from http://www.spamoff.com !

If you have spam on the fly, wouldn’t that be considered bait fishing?? Inquiring minds want to know. George Adams

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Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all.   No matter how you cut it, they are commercial solicitations for business.   Is this what we want?  Is this the future of this site?  If this is what the majority wants its fine with me but it is a sure bet if this type of folksy ill-disguised  hustling continues unabated, it will eventually take over.  comments on the above would be very interesting. Tom Montauk Point

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Question:

My family is planning a trip to Canada in early June and I am looking for information on fishing resorts and guides.  Any information is appreciated and should be sent to me by e-mail.  Here are some of the conditions for our vacation. The resort should be accessable by car, within an 8 to 10 hour drive from Thunder Bay, Canada.  We plan to visit Thunder Bay during the first part of the vacation. Fishing guides are required. Fishing preferences are artificials and live bait (no fly fishing).  I am open to a variety of fish species, especially: lake trout, walleye and northern pike. — Kevin S. McDowell Customer Service Consultant/Management Analyst Minnesota Department of Economic Security http://mn.jobsearch.org Author of Creative Job Search Internet resources: http://mn.jobsearch.org/cjs/cjs_site/cjs-home.htm

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My family is planning a trip to Canada in early June and I am looking for information on fishing resorts and guides.  Any information is appreciated and should be sent to me by e-mail.  Here are some of the conditions for our vacation. The resort should be accessable by car, within an 8 to 10 hour drive from Thunder Bay, Canada.  We plan to visit Thunder Bay during the first part of the vacation. Fishing guides are required. Fishing preferences are artificials and live bait (no fly fishing).  I am open to a variety of fish species, especially: lake trout, walleye and northern pike. — Kevin S. McDowell Customer Service Consultant/Management Analyst Minnesota Department of Economic Security http://mn.jobsearch.org Author of Creative Job Search Internet resources: http://mn.jobsearch.org/cjs/cjs_site/cjs-home.htm

Hi Kevin. There is lots on our website that I think will interest you. Perhaps the best place to start is with the Northwest Ontario’s Sunset Country Travel Association’s website at http://ontariossunsetcountry.ca . This organisation represents over 250 lodges and resorts in Northwestern Ontario. Also have a look at the Northern Ontario Tourist Outfitters at http://www.virtualnorth.com/noto/ . NOTO represents about 600 outdoor operators across Northern Ontario. You’ll find at both sites a members directory and online forms to request more information including vacation guides. Enjoy! Dan Good Virtual North

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rec.outdoors.fishing.fly  newsgroup readers

[ ANGLER 2K ]

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Howdy everyone!  I am in the planning stages of a trip to South-West Alaska.  I have this brochure from Alaska Fish and Game that tells of the fishing conditions on Prince of Wales Island.  From the description I read it sounds like a cross between the Henry’s Fork and New Zealand, ie pristine streams packed with rainbows and grayling.  Then I talked to my friend who was there two years ago and he said Prince of Wales Island is a clear-cut eyesore with only small trout.  What gives?  Can anyone confirm or deny this situation? -John —      Its not that flyfishing is everything, it is just that everything      else in my life is less important.                                                      -Moi

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Howdy everyone!  I am in the planning stages of a trip to South-West Alaska.  I have this brochure from Alaska Fish and Game that tells of the fishing conditions on Prince of Wales Island.  From the description I read it sounds like a cross between the Henry’s Fork and New Zealand, ie pristine streams packed with rainbows and grayling.  Then I talked to my friend who was there two years ago and he said Prince of Wales Island is a clear-cut eyesore with only small trout.  What gives?  Can anyone confirm or deny this situation? -John —     Its not that flyfishing is everything, it is just that everything     else in my life is less important.                                                     -Moi

It depends on where you are.  It is possible to be a quarter mile from a clear-cut area and think you are in a pristine forest.  The only way to get a good look at these ugly scars is from the air.  The lumber industry keeps telling everyone that they can harvest at a renewable sustained yield.  Then they come to Alaska and chop down old growth forests with Uncle Sam underwriting the cost.  The main players are Japanese firms that turn the trees into pulp, I guess they use it for VCR instruction books. BTW if you go to southwest Alaska you’ll be about 1,000 miles from POW Island. R. Wood in Alaska

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Question:

  Different flies are useful for different seasons. Does anybody know what flies are better during the different seasons.   I live in central Ontario and am just starting out.  Any help would be appreciated.                Thanks…Blayne

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ALL SEASON…U USE ANYTHING  U WANT..AND, I LL CATCH AND RELEASE MORE FISH….GOOD LUCK ANYWAY!!!  Different flies are useful for different seasons. Does anybody know   what flies are better during the different seasons.    I live in central Ontario and am just starting out.  Any help would be   appreciated.                 Thanks…Blayne

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 Different flies are useful for different seasons. Does anybody know what flies are better during the different seasons.  I live in central Ontario and am just starting out.  Any help would be appreciated.               Thanks…Blayne

Hi Blayne, I’m going to present an extremely short and generalized list on a large and complicated subject. Midges: All year Stoneflies: Spring Mayflies: Spring and Fall Caddisflies: Spring through Fall As the year progresses, fish progressively smaller flies. These are ideas that can and will be disputed, but as generalizations go, I think they each carry a kernel of truth. I hope this helps,   Alan.   Alan Barnard   Kiene’s Fly Shop   Sacramento, California   WWW Fly Tyer   http://www.ns.net/~barnard

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Different flies are useful for different seasons. Does anybody know what flies are better during the different seasons.  I live in central Ontario and am just starting out.  Any help would be appreciated.               Thanks…Blayne Hi Blayne, I’m going to present an extremely short and generalized list on a large and complicated subject. Midges: All year Stoneflies: Spring Mayflies: Spring and Fall Caddisflies: Spring through Fall As the year progresses, fish progressively smaller flies. These are ideas that can and will be disputed, but as generalizations go, I think they each carry a kernel of truth. I hope this helps,   Alan.

Hi Alan, Best stated short course I’ve seen. I hope you don’t mind if I reference it from time to time. Good job. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (new 96 catalog)

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I started quite a discussion with my "8 or 9 wt  rod" question and I want to thank all for your experience and wisdom. With all the input, I have decided on an 8 wt rod, which should be very versatile here in CA. I now have a question about line. I have now been told by 2 shops that a shooting head is the only way to go for CA steelhead. Its a bit intimidating in that I see all the casters at the pond untangling huge masses of  monofilament line. (Its hard enough to double haul right now without added complications!) I know that there are lines such as Teeny’s T’s, Cortland’s 24′ sink tip equivalent, and a Cortland line which is attached to braided mono. Shooting heads apparently offer the greatest flexibility in that different heads can be selected: floating and heads with various sink rates. It also offers a confusing number of options. Should I attach the shooting head to a floating running line, which is then attached to the mono backing, or do I attach the shooting head directly to the mono, as I see so many guys at the pond doing? If I do attach  the head to an intermediary section of floating running line, what diameter?, floating or sinking? Should I stick with a shooting head system and if so, what brands can I investigate? (I know Orvis provides a kit like system.) In a catalogue I have also seen 100

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However, there are tons and tons of pre-tied flies sold.  I see folks buying them all the time.  I suspect that a possibly relevant follow-up question is to ask what % of the flies that you use did you tie and what % did you buy. I know that there are lots of folks that buy lots of flies.  However, I do not.

I – and again, everyone I fish with – tie *all* of my/their own flies, whether fresh water or salt water, dry fly/emerger/nymph/popper/diver/whatever… But then, I’ve been a dyed-in-the-wool flyfisher for 29 years, and everyone I fish with has been flyfishing for 15 to 50 years… I agree that all those flies you see binned up in the shops *must* get sold to someone, but them’s ain’t us ;^) /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <           "Read this and nobody gets hurt"           < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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: Anybody know the percentage of fly fisherman who tie their own flies? : I’d be interested to hear your comments on the percentage. I’d be even : interested in the percentage of your fishing buddies who tie their own. : Thanks, Craig, all the fly fishers I know tie a percentage off their flies. Of these only one is a 100% "my fly only type" the rest will swap buy tie as the need arises. Some guys refuse to tie dries, other won’t tie (or fish in public nymphs. Thats about 8 fellas that spring to mind. hooroo steve ps Perhaps an ancilliary question : "How many only fish with their self tied flies 100%?"

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Anybody know the percentage of fly fisherman who tie their own flies? I’d be interested to hear your comments on the percentage. I’d be even interested in the percentage of your fishing buddies who tie their own. Thanks,

Craig, Of the five people (4 males & 1 female) that I fish with on a regular basis, three of us tie our own .                                         Steve

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Most of the people I fish with tie their own and then borrow some flies when an individual seems to have the "hot pattern" for the day. I would guess that most of the flies fished in my area are tied by foreign teenage girls however. One company is reported to sell 700,000 dozen this year. That is a lot of flies and represents only the largest importer.

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Anybody know the percentage of fly fisherman who tie their own flies?
I’d be interested to hear your comments on the percentage. I’d be even interested in the percentage of your fishing buddies who tie their own.
Thanks,
Craig,
Of the five people (4 males & 1 female) that I fish with on a regular basis, three of us tie our own .
                                   Steve

Out of 5 other fly fishing buddies (6 including myself) I am the only one who ties flies. Darryl Hayashida

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: : I know that there are lots of folks that buy lots of flies.  However, : I do not. : I – and again, everyone I fish with – tie *all* of my/their own flies, whether I buy a fly or two every now and then.  I may see a particularly well-tied one that I’ll keep as a "model", or I’ll get something recommended for local conditions.  But most of the flies I buy are for "models". — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster

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Anybody know the percentage of fly fisherman who tie their own flies? I’d be interested to hear your comments on the percentage. I’d be even interested in the percentage of your fishing buddies who tie their own. Thanks,

I’m a member of a small fishing club in Sweden with approx. 250 members All of them are flytiers. We have yearly studying circles in fly tying for all ages so we can keep up the craftmanship of fly tying. So… all my flyfishing friends are tying there own. Best flytying regards Lars Elfner

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I have only been ff for three years now but I can say that in that time I have only bought maybe 15 flies, total. A month after I started fishing I taught myself to tie. Since then the only time I buy flies is when I need info on a hatch from a local sporting shop ( I have only done this twice). I tie flys for everyone that I go with which is about three different people. On the water, I think most of the weekend hobbiests buy flies, while the Flyfishermen tie them. Eg. on a stocked river that I frequent, all the ff people I talk to buy their flies, while on Hat creek, just the thought of a store bought fly would give you a bad look. As a percentage I would say that more are bought, just by the fact that there are more overpopulated rivers than there are ff rivers.

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The way I do it is. I tie the flies that are known to catch fish in this area. I buy one or two of few patterns that work well in the surrounding areas just in case I get to go out of town.

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Anybody know the percentage of fly fisherman who tie their own flies? I’d be interested to hear your comments on the percentage. I’d be even interested in the percentage of your fishing buddies who tie their own. Thanks,

Half my ff-ing friends tie their own, the other half buy them from me! I bought my flies the first time I set out, then started tying very soon after.  That first batch was the only ones I ever bought. My guess is that most the folks that buy commercially ties flies probably do lots of other types of fishing too, and are not completely engrossed in fly fishing.  I can’t see laying out all the money that I see some people do buying flys.  Yea, I know how much I laid out on my tying equipment and supplies, but that’s different!  :-) Most of that stuff was paid for by selling the stuff I tied.   A sunny day,      a box of midges,         and a wandering stream…   Man, this MUST be heaven!   <    Steve Kulpa    <<

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Perhaps an ancilliary question : "How many only fish with their self tied flies 100%?"

Pretty much everyone I fish with fits this category. Most of us fish with rods we built ourselves too. Cost is a big factor, but I think it’s more of a natural curiosity we have, as most of us tie a box of standards like clousers, then set to tying more "experimental" patterns to imitate mackerel, pogies, eels, etc. Sometimes the winter in Maine seems so long that building a new rod or tying a mess of flies is the only way to stay sane. Well that and writing about yuppies on the net…. :-

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Perhaps an ancilliary question : "How many only fish with their self tied flies 100%?"

That’s me.  I’ve never caught a trout on a fly that I didn’t tie.  Why bother paying $2.00-$3.00 for a fly when you can tie your own for much less and can make a much better looking fly in most cases.  Economics are a main issue here. I am in college and I couldn’t afford to have a well stocked fly box if I didn’t tie the flys myself.  Also the satisfaction that comes from tying your own fly and then catching a trout with it is incredible. Jake

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2 out of 5 tie.                         jamie

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I fish with five guys on a regular basis. Out of these five, four of them tie their own flies. Only two of us tie flies for the situations we encounter. I’m currently tying salmon fly patterns for my trips to the Deschutes River. last Friday night we slaughtered ‘em on size 4 red patterns! Bill Ruddick

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<snip : However, there are tons and tons of pre-tied flies sold.  I see folks buying : them all the time.  I suspect that a possibly relevant follow-up question : is to ask what % of the flies that you use did you tie and what % did you : buy. : I know that there are lots of folks that buy lots of flies.  However, : I do not. A primary reason for buying flies is to get a quick selection of local favourites. New water? – locate a local shop, shoot the bull with the owner, get some local tips, buy a few flies  - both the get a head start on matching local conditions and as a way of "thanking" him for his advice. I tie almost all of my flies, but I haven’t got to the point where I take my tying supplies with me on a trip (my van won’t pull two trailers  ) — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

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I tie most of my own, the exception being those special hatches and unforseen occasions. Then, I’ll buy one or two at a time. My four friends are the same way. I have to add that I guess the people on this list would not be a representative sample of the flyfishing world. –sean

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For what it’s worth, I think they’re two seperate activities.  Its just nice that they happen to be related.  As Dave mentioned, most of the people I fish with tie their own flys.   I buy some (I cant tie Wulffs worth a damn) and I occasionally I find some that are different.   By-the-way: I saw a box full of excellent flys this past week They were tied by a shop in New Hartford Conn.  (Classic and Custom Fly Shop – I think) Very nice examples of Conn hendricksons, emergers and some of the old standards tied ‘catskill’ style.  I dont think the fish care all that much, but these were really first rate.

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i tie my own. i bought four or five when i got into this insanity, figured i might as well wade into the deep water, bought a vise, a bobbin, and a small fortune in supplies and have been saving the big bucks ever since.  everytime i see a new pattern, i buy a hundred dollars worth of chicken necks and other assorted parts, (not to mention artificial stuff that sells for who knows what an ounce.  as soon as the ups man leave, i head to my fly room and tie five of ‘em.  hmmm, that would be twenty bucks per.  don’t tell my wife, i just hit her up for a hoffman #2 cream for father’s day!. seriously, i wouldn’t buy a fly now.  i can’t fish worth a damn, but my flies are much better than most of the ones you see in the bins.

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Just thought I’d delurk for a moment and post this in response to this continuing thread.  I enjoy fly-fishing and fly-tying.  Tying my own flies is an extension of fly-fishing and provides a great way for me to relax from my day job.  Since I primarily fish for trout and freshwater fish, I try to tie flies to match the hatches on the VA streams.  Though I don’t fly-fish for salmon often, I tie full-dress salmon flies.  Hunting down materials over the past ten years has added greatly to the enjoyment of tying these flies. I’ll offer this opinion of mass-produced flies.  Often they are produced only for the "fly-fisher," not for the fish.  Though I try to tie flies which match the naturals, the flies in the shops often have too much hackle or do not balance correctly on the water.  Also, many of these flies are not produced in the US, Canada, or the UK. (I’m saying this because these are my fishing areas.)  The flies just aren’t tied correctly and they do not stand up to the wear and tear of the fish.  I also think that regional flies outperform mass-produced ones. For example, a Grey Ghost streamer by a well-known company.  The traditional Steven’s dressing is not followed and the flies are sloppily constructed.  A friend and I were fishing some of the Appalachian lakes and his flies were not holding up for more than one or two strikes. In short, I’d rather tie my own flies for a lot of reasons.  I also like tying for my fishing buddies and helping them and others with flies.  It greatly enriches my fishing experience. DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed herein are not those of my employer. Loral Federal Systems                                         (301) 470-1957

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Anybody know the percentage of fly fisherman who tie their own flies? I’d be interested to hear your comments on the percentage. I’d be even interested in the percentage of your fishing buddies who tie their own. Thanks, I can’t think of *any* of my flyfishing buddies that *don’t* tie their own.

However, there are tons and tons of pre-tied flies sold.  I see folks buying them all the time.  I suspect that a possibly relevant follow-up question is to ask what % of the flies that you use did you tie and what % did you buy. I know that there are lots of folks that buy lots of flies.  However, I do not. -tgades

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Anybody know the percentage of fly fisherman who tie their own flies? I’d be interested to hear your comments on the percentage. I’d be even interested in the percentage of your fishing buddies who tie their own. Thanks,

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Can’t give you an accurate percentage, but I would be willing to bet anyone who has been fly fishing for more than a year or so probably has started tying their own.  All fly fishermen I know do their own tying (and THAT numbers around 25) Greg

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Anybody know the percentage of fly fisherman who tie their own flies? I’d be interested to hear your comments on the percentage. I’d be even interested in the percentage of your fishing buddies who tie their own. Thanks,

I can’t think of *any* of my flyfishing buddies that *don’t* tie their own. (Hey Harlan, do *you* know anyone that doesn’t tie their own?) /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <           "Read this and nobody gets hurt"           < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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