Question:

[snipped] Great story.  I can feel the slime and smell the penetrating odor from here

Response:

……On Saturday at a Back Yard Burger I saw four young Elvises (Elvii) getting out of a powder blue 1962 Buick convertible.

The dude DOES get around.  He spends his days picking up trash at Children’s Hospital of Wisconsin, here in Milwaukee. Wolfgang i guess the king of rock-n-roll biz ain’t what it used to was.

Response:

Great story.  I can feel the slime and smell the penetrating odor from here

TAKE A SHOWER ALREADY! mEMPHIS jIM No, I haven’t seen Elvis this week.

Response:

says… Great story.  I can feel the slime and smell the penetrating odor from here TAKE A SHOWER ALREADY! mEMPHIS jIM No, I haven’t seen Elvis this week.

thanks.  I was wondering what I stepped in… — Rob (but have you gone by Graceland…)

Response:

Actually that’s not true.  On Saturday at a Back Yard Burger I saw four young Elvises (Elvii) getting out of a powder blue 1962 Buick convertible. Memphis Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, I haven’t seen Elvis this week. thanks.  I was wondering what I stepped in… — Rob (but have you gone by Graceland…)

Response:

Boulder, ponds near Munson’s ? You mean 75th and Valmont ? Not the Sawhill’s ? How in the world is there trout in any pond near there ? The water must be 85 degrees ? Good bass’n out there, and big carp. But you say there’s some nice trout, eh ? Could you please be more specific about where these ponds are ? TIA. Bone.

BTW, TBone, I forgot to mention the graylings… hehe

Response:

Is that you, Frank?

No sir. Not Frank. Ben. -bh

Response:

Boulder, ponds near Munson’s ? You mean 75th and Valmont ? Not the Sawhill’s ? How in the world is there trout in any pond near there ? The water must be 85 degrees ? Good bass’n out there, and big carp. But you say there’s some nice trout, eh ? Could you please be more specific about where these ponds are ? TIA. Bone.

Response:

Is that you, Frank? No sir. Not Frank. Ben.

It tis nice to see others with a single minded devotion to the fish.  Hey, so what if you get a bit messy, you got a fish and these guys are just dreaming of getting some. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

Boulder, ponds near Munson’s ? You mean 75th and Valmont ? Not the Sawhill’s ? How in the world is there trout in any pond near there ? The water must be 85 degrees ? Good bass’n out there, and big carp. But you say there’s some nice trout, eh ? Could you please be more specific about where these ponds are ? TIA. Bone.

You clearly know the place, what I’ve been tiold by the F&G guys that patrol the area is that the ponds are and have for some time been dumping grounds for stock. Big bass, yes. I’ve lifted an 18 inch large mouth out of the back pond on a #10 krystal bugger tied to 6X tippet and a 4wt rod. I’ve also taken more than a number of catfish ON THE SURFACE using smallish, bright white upwing something or others (I forget exactly) from the first pond. Sunfish, bluegills, small mouths, big mouths. The place is like a proving ground for fly tackle. Specifically on the trout issue: Walk back from the parking lot, past the pond with the dock. The next pond on the north side of that path is huge and damned near dry. Stand there on the south side near the aspen stand, open your eyes and prick your ears. Those big dark shadowy bug sucking monsters are trout. If we don’t get some rain soon, they will soon be trout jerky. Let me know and I’ll meet you there. -bh Boulder, CO

Response:

I spent the day fishing one of the back ponds out near Munson’s east of Boulder, CO. The current drought and a bit of local water politics has reduced many of these usually healthy potholes to small bowls of muddy, stringy soup. The hole I chose to visit today caught my eye via my ear when I heard loud slurping sounds coming from the ooze. I sat down on a clump of rye grass and watched some of the biggest lunker trout I’ve ever seen sucking bugs off of the surface, their backs complelety exposed to the air as they lay cradled in the thick weeds. I sat and I watched and I evaluated. Two big problems — 1.) the sea weed was very thick and left only small (maybe 4-5 ft. across) targets of clear (kind of) water in which to land a fly and 2.) the CO Fish and Game had encouraged aspens all along this particular bank leaving only a 10 by 10 ft "window" for me to shoot a line through. Normally I’d feel ok about a tight cast like that, but I was also standing 10-12 feet above the surface of the water which put my backcast up high and my front cast down sharply. So I sat some more and evaluated and while I did I tied on a #8 Dave’s hopper variant that I picked up in a general store in Ten Sleep, WY this summer. This version has gads of jangly rubber legs and makes all kind of ruckus on the surface when you twitch ‘em. I had no clue what they were sipping so I figured something juicy and big might bust them away from whatever hatch they were enjoying at the moment. So I sat some more and evaluated and while I did I began to realise that there was not a single sunfish or gilly or anything small at or near the water’s edge. it occurred to me that this pond had been shrinking for months and that anything small had been consumed by the elders in the water. This explained their size. Off in the distance, maybe 100 yds or so from my clump of grass were two blue herons standing in less than a foot of water. They were no doubt waiting patiently for one of these giants to glide by. I tried to imagine what that fight would look like. The scene in front of me was like an entire wildlife documentory but without the narrative. Truly unreal. So I decided it was time. I screeched off 20 or 30 feet of line from my little Princess and flicked the tippet end out toward the water. Two or three false casts swished through the air and — and this is god’s truth — I popped that little hopper right smack in the center of a clear spot in the water. I watched. I waited. I stripped in the slack and I waited some more. The water was so dark and so thick with growth that it was hard to see anything beneath the surface. I waited a minute or so and finally I gave her a twitch. My little bug pushed a bow-wave straight toward me and floated high on the water. Another ten seconds and I gave it another twitch. This time something thick and black and large rolled over and devoured my fly. I popped my wrist back and hooked up nicely. That fish — my fish — ran a slalom course through the weeds and tangled my leader 5 ways from Sunday. I stood up, fell and slid like a knothead down the bank and landed on my knees in the muck. But I still had a fish on! I stripped the slack that had formed from my fall and felt the leader knot hit the tip of my rod. I knew I was less than 9 feet from this fish and I wasn’t going to let a little slime stop me from landing him. What I didn’t plan on was the "lack of firmness" on the bottom of the pond. I stepped into the water — just a foot or so — and immediately felt the coolness of the mud slide deliciously up to my knees. I tried to step out and I felt one of my Teva’s come off my foot. Damn! I lost balance and fell back, gently and with great style, right on my ass. Here I am, all of my bits and pieces in the water and my legs being swallowed by quick sand. I worked to get my feet out of the suck, all the while trying to hang on to my rod. Eventually I got to my feet and started scanning the weeds for my fishy friend. I bent my rod gently and in doing so pulled my leader into a semi-straight line. I coould feel the fish still and I could see the hissy fit he was throwing in the growth. Laying down my rod I wrapped the leader around my hand and gently pulled him in. The trout was wrapped in so much plant material that he looked twice his actual size. I kept him in the water and slipped a wet hand under his belly. The weeds kept him still as I unhooked him and pointed him, nose first toward the center of the pond. I gathered my dignity and shlepped back to my car, my legs and shorts frosted in foul smelling green/brown goop. Well, there are no facilities at this place and I had nothing more than what I was wearing with me so I slipped out of my shorts and tshirt, put my shirt over the driver’s seat of my car and drove home wearing nothing but my Jockeys and a big smile. Upon my arrival, my wife didn’t inquire as to my condition or how it came to be. She gave me a totally unaffected look and asked me if I had had a good time. I told her that I had.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I spent the day fishing one of the back ponds out near Munson’s east of Boulder, CO. The current drought and a bit of local water politics has reduced many of these usually healthy potholes to small bowls of muddy, stringy soup. The hole I chose to visit today caught my eye via my ear when I heard loud slurping sounds coming from the ooze. I sat down on a clump of rye grass and watched some of the biggest lunker trout I’ve ever seen sucking bugs off of the surface, their backs complelety exposed to the air as they lay cradled in the thick weeds. I sat and I watched and I evaluated. Two big problems — 1.) the sea weed was very thick and left only small (maybe 4-5 ft. across) targets of clear (kind of) water in which to land a fly and 2.) the CO Fish and Game had encouraged aspens all along this particular bank leaving only a 10 by 10 ft "window" for me to shoot a line through. Normally I’d feel ok about a tight cast like that, but I was also standing 10-12 feet above the surface of the water which put my backcast up high and my front cast down sharply. So I sat some more and evaluated and while I did I tied on a #8 Dave’s hopper variant that I picked up in a general store in Ten Sleep, WY this summer. This version has gads of jangly rubber legs and makes all kind of ruckus on the surface when you twitch ‘em. I had no clue what they were sipping so I figured something juicy and big might bust them away from whatever hatch they were enjoying at the moment. So I sat some more and evaluated and while I did I began to realise that there was not a single sunfish or gilly or anything small at or near the water’s edge. it occurred to me that this pond had been shrinking for months and that anything small had been consumed by the elders in the water. This explained their size. Off in the distance, maybe 100 yds or so from my clump of grass were two blue herons standing in less than a foot of water. They were no doubt waiting patiently for one of these giants to glide by. I tried to imagine what that fight would look like. The scene in front of me was like an entire wildlife documentory but without the narrative. Truly unreal. So I decided it was time. I screeched off 20 or 30 feet of line from my little Princess and flicked the tippet end out toward the water. Two or three false casts swished through the air and — and this is god’s truth — I popped that little hopper right smack in the center of a clear spot in the water. I watched. I waited. I stripped in the slack and I waited some more. The water was so dark and so thick with growth that it was hard to see anything beneath the surface. I waited a minute or so and finally I gave her a twitch. My little bug pushed a bow-wave straight toward me and floated high on the water. Another ten seconds and I gave it another twitch. This time something thick and black and large rolled over and devoured my fly. I popped my wrist back and hooked up nicely. That fish — my fish — ran a slalom course through the weeds and tangled my leader 5 ways from Sunday. I stood up, fell and slid like a knothead down the bank and landed on my knees in the muck. But I still had a fish on! I stripped the slack that had formed from my fall and felt the leader knot hit the tip of my rod. I knew I was less than 9 feet from this fish and I wasn’t going to let a little slime stop me from landing him. What I didn’t plan on was the "lack of firmness" on the bottom of the pond. I stepped into the water — just a foot or so — and immediately felt the coolness of the mud slide deliciously up to my knees. I tried to step out and I felt one of my Teva’s come off my foot. Damn! I lost balance and fell back, gently and with great style, right on my ass. Here I am, all of my bits and pieces in the water and my legs being swallowed by quick sand. I worked to get my feet out of the suck, all the while trying to hang on to my rod. Eventually I got to my feet and started scanning the weeds for my fishy friend. I bent my rod gently and in doing so pulled my leader into a semi-straight line. I coould feel the fish still and I could see the hissy fit he was throwing in the growth. Laying down my rod I wrapped the leader around my hand and gently pulled him in. The trout was wrapped in so much plant material that he looked twice his actual size. I kept him in the water and slipped a wet hand under his belly. The weeds kept him still as I unhooked him and pointed him, nose first toward the center of the pond. I gathered my dignity and shlepped back to my car, my legs and shorts frosted in foul smelling green/brown goop. Well, there are no facilities at this place and I had nothing more than what I was wearing with me so I slipped out of my shorts and tshirt, put my shirt over the driver’s seat of my car and drove home wearing nothing but my Jockeys and a big smile. Upon my arrival, my wife didn’t inquire as to my condition or how it came to be. She gave me a totally unaffected look and asked me if I had had a good time. I told her that I had.

Is that you, Frank?

Response:

Question:

Phew. All kinds of generalities there, probably none of it of much help. But at least I didn’t skewer you ;^)

Actually, since he didn’t specify the conditions he would be fishing or his casting style, you sort of did by making him read yet another post about preferences<g. — Charlie…

Response:

I just read through this thread hoping to pick up some reasoning for what would be the virtue of a slower action rod and I have to tell you I found almost zero usefull information.  Would you guys consider starting a new group alt.love_lost.2.old.rod?

Uh uh uh. Don’t taunt the bears! Wouldn’t be prudent. Or better yet, tell me why (and where) a slow rod beats a fast rod.

I believe that’s mostly a matter of casting style and/or experience. For many folks, especially less experienced ones, slower rods telegraph their loaded point louder than fast rods do, so a slower rod can be easier to cast – or learn to cast. The faster the rod the less obvious that same loaded-point becomes. One could make a case, I suppose, that a slower rod is easier to use in tight quarters (small streams, etc) regardless of casting style or expertise. I don’t have any wicked-fast small stream rods, they’re all moderate action or even a bit slow. I do have some real telephone poles for stripers and bluefish, however (eg: 9wt IMX, 7wt RPLX) as well as a couple of moderate-action rods (eg: 9wt IM6, 7wt IM6) and for fighting wind over the ocean I like casting the faster rods – which throw a tighter loop (very useful when casting side-arm to get down under the worst of the wind). I still have a couple of glass rods but really hated fishing saltwater with them. Too damned slow, not as much backbone, and casting a wide loop side-arm can be really risky business ;^) Phew. All kinds of generalities there, probably none of it of much help. But at least I didn’t skewer you ;^) /daytripper

Response:

Aw c’mon Ken, the quality of free advice just wasn’t up to his standards.

I just don’t like whiners. I mean, I read his post hoping to find a really good borscht recipe. That damn post mentioned nothing whatsoever about borscht, but you don’t hear me whining about it. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I feel the LL is one of Sage’s best creation.  It is one of the nicest rods to cast a line with.  I have a 389-3LL and use a Stillwater taper for most of my lake fishing.  I’ve even gone as far as using a type 2 uniform sink from SA.  It actually casted fine.   My buddy has a 489 and uses all different sink rates of lake lines on it.  You will need to make subtle changes to your casting stroke in order to make up for the slower action.  What rod do you have? Thanks, — Forrest http://www.FlyFishingREVIEW.com FlyFishingREVIEW.com win any SAGE rod! Before you buy.

Response:

I’ll register in on the love side.   I’ve always preferred the softer action of the LL series, and the 490 LL is my absolute favorite rod ever. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any fans of the Sage Light Line Series out there?   Or for that matter, anybody hate the series? Personally I love it’s medium action and can’t believe they are discontinuing them (at least that’s what I heard).  Has anyone tried casting this rod with a sink tip or a wet line?  If so I’d particularly like to hear from you. Thinking of getting new lines for this rod but want to hear some comments/suggestions from others that have tried different line combos on this rod before rushing out to waste money.  Reason why I’m hesitating is because its light weight plus medium action might make this rod a nightmare to cast with sink tips or wet lines. Thanks!

Response:

I also fall on the love side of the spectrum.  I think the LL and the RPL were the best rods Sage has made.   I currently own a SP+ which I use on the big open lakes and rivers out here in WA but I just bought a 2 pc. 3wt LL blank off of ebay for fishing the creeks and smaller waters.  I can’t wait to get it built.   Hopefully Sage will relearn the lesson that power isn’t everything and return to making these fine rods. Mike

Response:

I currently own a SP+ which I use on the big open lakes and rivers out here in WA but I just bought a 2 pc. 3wt LL blank off of ebay for fishing the creeks and smaller waters.  I can’t wait to get it built.

I saw that blank and damned near went after it myself to build my wife a rod; but I just have too many rod projects in the works for the present. (Fixing my son’s epoxy & repairing my broken 9 wt.)   I’m glad I didn’t drive the price up for you.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

I own a 9 foot 4 weight LL and love the thing. I am sick of fast action rods that stop a trout in its tracks. I also have an RPL+ 10 foot 7 weight and this is really a salmon rod. I caight a 14lb 2oz rainbow on it the other day and after a couple of minutes, the fish put its fins in the air and came quietly. Shame. I broke my big Sage in May, which is why August saw me fishing the Teifi at night for sea trout with my LL. I hooked, played and netted a fish of 5.5 lb and the fight was tremendous. So glad it wasn’t my RPL+. I have just bought a 3 piece 9 foot 6 weight SP and am dying to get out there with the thing. Softer action too, although not like the LL. The LL range is being continued, I understand, although only in a 3-piece and at a higher price. Bugger (woolly and otherwise)! Caspar – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep, I own 3 of the LL series…….2/4/6 wts.  Love ‘em.  I would class their action more as slow to medium, than strictly medium.  My casting style (if one could call it a ’style’, more like a grenade toss) is more suited to the slower action.  And no, I don’t use sinking lines on any of them because they are just not suited for throwing weight.  Having said that, I sometimes use a short piece of sinking leader to get the fly down if fishing in current or deeper water, but it is not a comfortable thing for me to do. If I’m tossing weighted buggers or need to use a sink tip, I switch to my St Croix medium action rods.  BTW, as to lines, I use SA Mastery or AirCell Supreme WF stuff.  FWIW- Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED Any fans of the Sage Light Line Series out there?   Or for that matter, anybody hate the series? Personally I love it’s medium action and can’t believe they are discontinuing them (at least that’s what I heard).  Has anyone tried casting this rod with a sink tip or a wet line?  If so I’d particularly like to hear from you. Thinking of getting new lines for this rod but want to hear some comments/suggestions from others that have tried different line combos on this rod before rushing out to waste money.  Reason why I’m hesitating is because its light weight plus medium action might make this rod a nightmare to cast with sink tips or wet lines. Thanks! Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

Response:

I have cast a LL and am seriously thinking of getting a 489.  How do you think they compare with an SP or SPl?  Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Chris Brown

Response:

Any fans of the Sage Light Line Series out there?  

I have a 490-4 LL that I’m quite fond of. I’ve tried several DT & WF floating lines on it, but no sinking lines. What works best for me is a Wulff TT 3/4. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I own a 9 foot 4 weight LL and love the thing. I am sick of fast action rods that stop a trout in its tracks. I also have an RPL+ 10 foot 7 weight and this is really a salmon rod. I caight a 14lb 2oz rainbow on it the other day and after a couple of minutes, the fish put its fins in the air and came quietly. Shame.

[snip] Some people would say that was a good thing.

Response:

Chris, I like the SP action and use it for the most part.  I have a couple SP+’s and in the wind and for long casting, prefer them.  I fished a SPL last spring for a week and found it just too much like a noodle.  Too slow for me. Regards, Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have cast a LL and am seriously thinking of getting a 489.  How do you think they compare with an SP or SPl?  Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Chris Brown

Response:

I’ve had three LLs, one SP, one RPL and two RPs.  The LLs were always my favourites and my current 590 LL (an older graphite II model) will cast a type V sinktip with no problem.  Just have to open up the loop a bit, that’s all.  I do a lot of streamer fishing so all of my trout rods have to be able to throw sinktips as well as floating lines. Slow action doesn’t necessarily mean less power. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

The Sage 389LL was one of the finest small-stream dry fly rods ever created.  It was originally produced in graphite II, and is one of the few blanks that survived a transition to graphite III without problems or substantial reworking.   Interestingly enough, it won a FR&R Kudo as a 2 weight – the slower action allowed it to load effectively with a 2 or a 3.  I fished mine (lost in the fire, alas) with a Triangle Taper 2/3, and it was superb.   I sorely miss it.  Since the fire, I bought one of the new SPL rods to replace it, but it just isn’t quite the same…….                                         Michael – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I currently own a SP+ which I use on the big open lakes and rivers out here in WA but I just bought a 2 pc. 3wt LL blank off of ebay for fishing the creeks and smaller waters.  I can’t wait to get it built. I saw that blank and damned near went after it myself to build my wife a rod; but I just have too many rod projects in the works for the present. (Fixing my son’s epoxy & repairing my broken 9 wt.)   I’m glad I didn’t drive the price up for you.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

I picked up a 490-4 LL blank on ebay recently (a major relief for me – I thought I’d lost that rod forever).  It was being sold by Drake Rod Co. – the lady told me that she had a couple of them in stock, and I believe that she also had a 490-3 LLB as well.  If anyone’s interested in contacting them drop me an email and I’ll see if I can scare up the contact info.                                 Michael Roegner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any fans of the Sage Light Line Series out there?   I have a 490-4 LL that I’m quite fond of. I’ve tried several DT & WF floating lines on it, but no sinking lines. What works best for me is a Wulff TT 3/4.

Response:

I got a 356 LL 2 years ago ( Yep, 5′-6") and absolutely love it for the small creeks I fish. I can cast under the canopy, cart it around in the bushes without getting hung up, and it casts up to 50′ with no problems, though it’s rare I see that much open space where I use it. I understand it was discontinued last year.         Steve

Response:

I have the 490 3LL and I absolutely adore it.  I plan to get some new lines for it soon but wasn’t sure how well it would cast heavier lines like sink tips and wet lines. After hearing from a few people that’s actually tried sink tips and full sinks, I think I will give it a try.   Afterall, I like the rod so much I want to use it for most, if not all, of my outtings, both stream and lake. Thanks for the info. Ken. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I feel the LL is one of Sage’s best creation.  It is one of the nicest rods to cast a line with.  I have a 389-3LL and use a Stillwater taper for most of my lake fishing.  I’ve even gone as far as using a type 2 uniform sink from SA.  It actually casted fine.   My buddy has a 489 and uses all different sink rates of lake lines on it.  You will need to make subtle changes to your casting stroke in order to make up for the slower action.  What rod do you have? Thanks, — Forrest http://www.FlyFishingREVIEW.com FlyFishingREVIEW.com win any SAGE rod! Before you buy.

Response:

(Flyfis4fun) writes: I also fall on the love side of the spectrum.  I think the LL and the RPL were the best rods Sage has made.   Hopefully Sage will relearn the lesson that power isn’t everything and return to making these fine rods. Moral of the story, if you find a rod you love, buy at least three of them cause sooner or later they ain’t gonna make em no more.

Oh Mister Gear Whore, you’re my HERO!

Response:

(Flyfis4fun) writes: I also fall on the love side of the spectrum.  I think the LL and the RPL were the best rods Sage has made.  

{snip} Hopefully Sage will relearn the lesson that power isn’t everything and return to making these fine rods.

Moral of the story, if you find a rod you love, buy at least three of them cause sooner or later they ain’t gonna make em no more. Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

Response:

I just read through this thread hoping to pick up some reasoning for what would be the virtue of a slower action rod and I have to tell you I found almost zero usefull information.  Would you guys consider starting a new group alt.love_lost.2.old.rod?  Or better yet, tell me why (and where) a slow rod beats a fast rod. Mike

Response:

I just read through this thread hoping to pick up some reasoning for what would be the virtue of a slower action rod and I have to tell you I found almost zero usefull information.  Would you guys consider starting a new group alt.love_lost.2.old.rod?  Or better yet, tell me why (and where) a slow rod beats a fast rod. Mike

How in the hell can you read a newsgroup with your head stuck up your ass like that ? — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I just read through this thread hoping to pick up some reasoning for what would be the virtue of a slower action rod and I have to tell you I found almost zero usefull information.  Would you guys consider starting a new group alt.love_lost.2.old.rod?  Or better yet, tell me why (and where) a slow rod beats a fast rod. Mike How in the hell can you read a newsgroup with your head stuck up your ass like that ?

Aw c’mon Ken, the quality of free advice just wasn’t up to his standards. What do you expect him to do, an internet search for articles or something? I mean, after all his vast contributions it seems he deserves better than this<g. — Charlie…

Response:

I just read through this thread hoping to pick up some reasoning for what would be the virtue of a slower action rod and I have to tell you I found almost zero usefull information.  Would you guys consider starting a new group alt.love_lost.2.old.rod?  Or better yet, tell me why (and where) a slow rod beats a fast rod. Mike

Let me take a minute here to wipe the sarcasm off your post, then I’ll try and answer your question.  First off, It isn’t a case of slow vs. fast, rather that each has it’s own characteristics that you can exploit in different situations. The biggest determinant is personal preference; some people love ‘em others don’t.  For the rest of the list of characteristics, these are generalizations and there are plenty of exceptions.  For sake of argument, assume that I’m comparing a slow Orvis Superfine 5 wt, to a fast Sage RPL+ 5 wt. Slow rods (Orvis Superfine) Loads easily with only a little line Short cast, mend and roll cast well Tend to be tolerant of under and over-lining Less fatiguing over a long day of fishing More delicate presentation Fast rods (Sage RPL+) Handles the wind better Stiff butt section gives better lifting power Easier to cast long Tighter loop control Pinpoint accuracy is easier But having said all of that, a good caster can be pinpoint accurate and handle the wind with a Superfine, or lay down a delicate cast with an RPL+ so we end up back with personal preference.   But there’s another determinant that you should keep in mind.  Some rods have a progressive action while others have more radical action. By this I mean that a progressive rod will simply work further down into the butt, the longer you cast and the more power you apply.  The relationship between power and distance on the one hand and how far the rod works into the butt on the other, is more or less linear. Casting a progressive rod doesn’t really take a change of casting stroke to cast long; merely lengthen the stroke a bit and apply a little more power.  Radical actions change between tip and butt so you may have a soft tip married to a stiff butt that requires a change in your casting stroke when casting long.  Radical actions try to combine the merits of slow and fast action rods in one but you have to pay a price by altering your casting stroke to accomondate the transition between slow tip and fast butt as the casting distance lengthens. Here’s a comparison – if you took an old Sage RPL 8 wt. and a Loomis GL3 Megataper 8/9 wt., and deflection tested them with identical weights, you may find that both delfected about the same amount so they would both be considered fast.  But the Sage would be bending well into the butt while the Loomis would accomodate most of the bending in the tip. So when casting, you’d find the Loomis will short cast easier but the Sage would be easier to cast over the full limits of its range.  The Loomis action was intended for flats fishing where you’d pick up a short bit of line with the tip, load quickly then bang out 60′-70′ with the butt, all in one casting motion.  The RPL would probably need one false cast to do the same. Next time don’t be so sarcastic and I won’t make you read as much.  :) Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Yep, I own 3 of the LL series…….2/4/6 wts.  Love ‘em.  I would class their action more as slow to medium, than strictly medium.  My casting style (if one could call it a ’style’, more like a grenade toss) is more suited to the slower action.  And no, I don’t use sinking lines on any of them because they are just not suited for throwing weight.  Having said that, I sometimes use a short piece of sinking leader to get the fly down if fishing in current or deeper water, but it is not a comfortable thing for me to do.  If I’m tossing weighted buggers or need to use a sink tip, I switch to my St Croix medium action rods.  BTW, as to lines, I use SA Mastery or AirCell Supreme WF stuff.  FWIW- Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any fans of the Sage Light Line Series out there?   Or for that matter, anybody hate the series? Personally I love it’s medium action and can’t believe they are discontinuing them (at least that’s what I heard).  Has anyone tried casting this rod with a sink tip or a wet line?  If so I’d particularly like to hear from you. Thinking of getting new lines for this rod but want to hear some comments/suggestions from others that have tried different line combos on this rod before rushing out to waste money.  Reason why I’m hesitating is because its light weight plus medium action might make this rod a nightmare to cast with sink tips or wet lines. Thanks!

Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

Response:

Any fans of the Sage Light Line Series out there?   Or for that matter, anybody hate the series? Personally I love it’s medium action and can’t believe they are discontinuing them (at least that’s what I heard).  Has anyone tried casting this rod with a sink tip or a wet line?  If so I’d particularly like to hear from you. Thinking of getting new lines for this rod but want to hear some comments/suggestions from others that have tried different line combos on this rod before rushing out to waste money.  Reason why I’m hesitating is because its light weight plus medium action might make this rod a nightmare to cast with sink tips or wet lines. Thanks!

Response:

Question:

Help, please: Here’s the scenario.  I fish a river that contains a population of wild, anadromous (I think), brook trout.  Most of the fish are in the 8 to 13" size, and they are caught fairly easily on dries.  There’s another size class, about 14 to 18", that can be caught on large dries, muddlers, streamers, etc with fair regularity at dawn and dusk. But the deeper pools also hide another size class.  These fish seem to be in the 5 to 6 lb. class. I’ve only seen them a couple of times, following an 8 or 10" fish in on the end of my line.  One grabbed a trout my son was landing last year, about 6 feet from shore, and tore off line to the far end of the pool before making off with the smaller fish. So, they’re clearly piscivorous.  Never seen one rise for a fly.  I think I need a streamer pattern that represents about  a 6 or 8" brook trout.  Any ideas?  I’d also love to be able to cast it with a #6 rod, but hey, life involves compromises. Thanks in advance to the collective wisdom of the group. brent

Response:

Help, please: Here’s the scenario.

(snip of description of paradise) Thanks in advance to the collective wisdom of the group. brent

        just tell me where you are, brent, and i will supply all the wisdom you will ever need.         you will be covered in streamers. wayno

Response:

Help, please: Here’s the scenario.  I fish a river that contains a population of wild, anadromous (I think), brook trout.  

I’ve never heard of anadramous brook trout. Can this be so? — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

<<So, they’re clearly piscivorous.  Never seen one rise for a fly.  I think I need a streamer pattern that represents about  a 6 or 8" brook trout.  Any ideas?  I’d also love to be able to cast it with a #6 rod, but hey, life involves compromises. Thanks in advance to the collective wisdom of the group. There are a number of streamers that imitate a little brook trout. I think the key is size and depth.  I would tie it in a #2 or #4, 4x to 6x long, and use a sink tip line to get it down.  I would also retrieve very quickly.  You could easily cast it with a 6 wt.  Won’t be pretty <G, but you can get out a good one. Now, if you were to meet me at this little fishing hole, I will supply the correct flies and tackle.  d;0) Dave LaCourse

Response:

I’ve never heard of anadramous brook trout. Can this be so?

Sure can.  In New England they call them "Salters".  Some coastal streams have a fairly good run.  Also some browns. George Adams

Response:

Several strains of brook trout are anadramous. — Nicholas J. Slodki http://trampled.net/Nikolai0/

: : Help, please: : : Here’s the scenario.  I fish a river that contains a population of wild, : anadromous (I think), brook trout. : :I’ve never heard of anadramous brook trout. Can this be so? : :– : :something bogus to avoid spam) :

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Help, please: Here’s the scenario. (snip of description of paradise) Thanks in advance to the collective wisdom of the group. brent         just tell me where you are, brent, and i will supply all the wisdom you will ever need.         you will be covered in streamers. wayno

Wayno: Its the Cains River.  Flows into the Main southwest Miramichi near Blackville, N.B. The stretch under discussion is roughly 15 km. long. Its a stretch of the Crown Angling Reserve Waters managed by NBDNRE. Its fly fishing only, hook and release, barbless.  Beautiful.  Moose, bear, deer, eagle, bobcat, etc.  I think there’s one occupied camp on the whole stretch; no bridges.  Its $10 canadian per day, limit of 6 rods per day. The catch?  Available to NB Residents ONLY.   (On the other hand, the other hundred or so Km. of the Cains is open to fly fishing by non-residents accompanied by a resident guide.) Sorry.  I guess I can’t expect that coat of many streamers, can I? Any chance of a pattern suggestion anyway?  You could fish it vicariously through me. brent

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Help, please: Here’s the scenario. (snip of description of paradise) Thanks in advance to the collective wisdom of the group. brent         just tell me where you are, brent, and i will supply all the wisdom you will ever need.         you will be covered in streamers. wayno

hook. Mr. G. drift* —

Question:

I will be in Belize next month (Ambergris Caye) and will be fishing for bones, tarpon, and whatever else I can catch. I have never done this type of fishing. I need suggestions on flies (and colors), line, leaders, etc. I will have an 8 and 10 weight rod with me. If you have some helpful info, please let me know. Thanks. LT

Response:

I will be in Belize next month (Ambergris Caye) and will be fishing for bones, tarpon, and whatever else I can catch. I have never done this type of fishing. I need suggestions on flies (and colors), line, leaders, etc. I will have an 8 and 10 weight rod with me. If you have some helpful info, please let me know. Thanks. LT

Hi Lt, You are going to the right place. There are a lot of good flats guides in the town of San Pedro on Ambergris Cay. You have the right size rods too. They do some wading for bones there and some from boats. I would have a weight forward floating salt water #8 line for the bones. The bones can be spooky so you might need a 15′ total leader to 0x. Find the stiffest leaders you can get and matching tippet. On turtle grass flats I use eye-less snapping shrimp patterns in tan. brown, olive and pink. On the sand flats I use Charlie type pattern with bead chain eyes in root beer, gold, pearl and pink. Take some small tan and olive crabs for bones too. You can catch permit on the same stuff. For tarpon I would get the SA/Mastery WF10F Tarpon Floating line and the SA/Mastery WF10S Tarpon slow sinking braided mono core line. This is the destination where those two lines can be used and I can’t say which one would really always be the best choice. I would go for the sinker for all around and the floater for the most fun. Put a 4′ butt section of  30# clear Mason on with an Albright knot so it won’t slip off that braided mono core. Put a perfection loop on the end. After this it can be done a lot of ways, but I would have some 20# Mason for tippet (why fool around on you first fish) and some 60# for shook tippet and let you guide rig it for you. I would get some sparse 3/0 tarpon flies in Cockroach, Red/Black, Grizzly/Orange, Yellow/Orange, Red/White and Purple with a little flash. Get a ‘cuda’ fly or two. You might find some bones somewhere around the island, but the best bet is a all a report when you return. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

I can’t fault advice below, except I personally have had poor luck using crab patterns for bones (never fished for permit). Charlies work great (best colors for me have been chartreuse or tan). Clouser minnows have been hot in BZ (at least in Placencia where I go) past couple of years. Sizes 2 and 4 are good; sparsely tied (I had one that was sparse to begin with, and got better after a lizardfish chewed off 2/3 of the bucktail). Chartreuse is best (with a white belly of course), and tan, brown and olive worked for me too. I’m told Clousers are good for permit too (larger, sizes 1 or 2) but as I say I haven’t tried. I’ve used the Bonefish Special for real shallow water or over grass with success, but I want to try the snapping shrimp pattern that Bill mentioned. Got to get tying! Eric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be in Belize next month (Ambergris Caye) and will be fishing for bones, tarpon, and whatever else I can catch. I have never done this type of fishing. I need suggestions on flies (and colors), line, leaders, etc. I will have an 8 and 10 weight rod with me. If you have some helpful info, please let me know. Thanks. LT Hi Lt, You are going to the right place. There are a lot of good flats guides in the town of San Pedro on Ambergris Cay. You have the right size rods too. They do some wading for bones there and some from boats. I would have a weight forward floating salt water #8 line for the bones. The bones can be spooky so you might need a 15′ total leader to 0x. Find the stiffest leaders you can get and matching tippet. On turtle grass flats I use eye-less snapping shrimp patterns in tan. brown, olive and pink. On the sand flats I use Charlie type pattern with bead chain eyes in root beer, gold, pearl and pink. Take some small tan and olive crabs for bones too. You can catch permit on the same stuff. For tarpon I would get the SA/Mastery WF10F Tarpon Floating line and the SA/Mastery WF10S Tarpon slow sinking braided mono core line. This is the destination where those two lines can be used and I can’t say which one would really always be the best choice. I would go for the sinker for all around and the floater for the most fun. Put a 4′ butt section of  30# clear Mason on with an Albright knot so it won’t slip off that braided mono core. Put a perfection loop on the end. After this it can be done a lot of ways, but I would have some 20# Mason for tippet (why fool around on you first fish) and some 60# for shook tippet and let you guide rig it for you. I would get some sparse 3/0 tarpon flies in Cockroach, Red/Black, Grizzly/Orange, Yellow/Orange, Red/White and Purple with a little flash. Get a ‘cuda’ fly or two. You might find some bones somewhere around the island, but the best bet is a all a report when you return. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

I can’t fault advice below, except I personally have had poor luck using crab patterns for bones (never fished for permit).

Hi Eric, We use real small tan Raghead crabs that where develope by Jan Isley in Ascencion Bay for permit. They are about the size of a dime. We catch small permit (3 to 6#) on them too. We use them in larger sizesfor larger permit and in olive/green too.  I also have been fishing Placencia and really love the area. If you get a chance tell me more about your adventures in that area. Who are you fishing with?  I have some chartreuse snapping shrimp called ‘Yucatan Specials’, but have not tried them. Thanks for you info. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

Question:

  Check in with North Country Anglers flyshop in N. Conway for conditions and great local flies.   The flyrod you mentioned is perfect for the Saco.  There will be clouds of black flies, but also some nice hatches.  Again, ask at the flyshop for what is hatching.  There’s also a bunch of other nice rivers in the area, the flyshop folks will tell you about them too. Have fun. Russ Gelinas

Response:

Can anyone give me some info about the saco river and the fishing around the North Conway area? Im a keen trout fisherman (fly) from London UK and will be staying in North Conway in late June. I currently use a 10ft #5 Sage RPL+ – will this do? what sort of trout are there? what sort of hatches? can you fish the nymph? is there any other small lakes / rivers around that area? Please help if you can Thanks

Response:

Question:

______DEAR MARTIN:  Someone else is going to have to verify this, but I think I remember hearing someone mention that the U-Tube has an unseen dangerous aspect to it . . . but I don’t remember what it was. Possibly, someone else knows what that dangerous design feature is or if it groundless. George — MZ

Hi George As I recall there was a magazine article in Fly Fisherman in the late 1980’s in which tests were done in a swimming pool with various float tubes. The U Tube seems to be easier to tip over as I remember what I read. Those of you on this group with a better memory than me may know exactly which magazine and when. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At one time, I did some product testing for the Creek Company before they moved to their present location.  I’ve used their tubes and others….and am currently using one that was designed by the Wood River Company in Chico, CA.  I would recommend the Wood River products highly. Barry Brown Hello out there! Is there anyone in this newsgroup, who has experience, or know anything, about a belly boat from Creek Company. The type is an U-form (U-shape, I’m not quite sure about the right word). If you have any information on this boat, I would be happy to hear your opinion. — Martin B. Hedegaard V

Question:

I need info on getting info (flyfishing for trout) in northern Washington, Idaho and Montana states. Thanx Bish

Response:

I need info on getting info (flyfishing for trout) in northern Washington, Idaho and Montana states.

Hi Bish Your request is fairly broad.  In Washington I recommend you contact the Blue Dun Fly Shop in Wenatchee (509-664-2416) and in Idaho check with the Cast a Way Fly Shop in Coeur d’Alene (208-765-3313). In Montana the Yellowstone River is fishing good, most of the waters in the Park are also fishing well.  The Clarks Fork is high but starting to turn on.  The Madison is good AM & PM and slow through the day.  The Gallatin is Fishing good through the day and into the evening (caddis).   Hoppers, caddis, woolly buggers, and bead heads are the flies of choice.  Also Wulffs, Trudes, etc. are alway a good choice. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

The following are acouple of places that may be able to answer questions about fly fishing in Montana http://www.cyberport.net/ecs/troutski/troutski.html http://www.cyberport.net/ecs/wwater/gnwwater.html — Electronic Cottage Services http://www.cyberport.net/ecs/lakeco/business/ecs/ecshome.html PO Box 81 Polson, MT 59860 406-887-2899

Response:

The following are acouple of places that may be able to answer questions about fly fishing in Montana

OR NOT!!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: news.micron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.ed u!swrinde!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nn tp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.fibr.net!news.inter netMCI.com!news-admin Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: InternetMCI Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup535.bloomington.mci.net The following are acouple of places that may be able to answer questions about fly fishing in Montana OR NOT!!!

Try calling the Idaho Outfitters and Guides Association or visit the Idaho home page.

Response:

Question:

Wait a minute!  The Deschutes River is NOT near Portland, Oregon.   It’s gotta be a 3-4 hour drive, at least.  And it’s not that easy to fish from shore.  What about smaller streams on the slopes of Mt Hood or an hour or so west of Portland near Vernonia/Mist or down in Yamhill County (seem to remember some creeks in there near McMinnville – Yamhill River?)?  Anyway, if you consider total travel time, a 3-hour drive is fairly long way to go for an hour or two of fishing.  Where do busy Portlanders REALLY go?

I can make it from McMinnville to Maupin in less than three hours, less from portland. IMHO it is worth the drive, but it does make it a long day. There are some nice small streams out here in Yamhill County. They hold mostly small wild cutthroat and hatchery rainbow. They also get very low in summer and I usually stop fishing them by mid June. I would stay away from the main Yamhill River, unless you are into warmwater fish and don’t mind raw sewage. The upper forks of the Yamhill have small cutthroat and can be fun but nothing great. Tight Lines, Jay Whitworth

Response:

Wait a minute!  The Deschutes River is NOT near Portland, Oregon. It’s gotta be a 3-4 hour drive, at least.  And it’s not that easy to fish from shore.  What about smaller streams on the slopes of Mt Hood or an hour or so west of Portland near Vernonia/Mist or down in Yamhill County (seem to remember some creeks in there near McMinnville – Yamhill River?)?  Anyway, if you consider total travel time, a 3-hour drive is fairly long way to go for an hour or two of fishing.  Where do busy Portlanders REALLY go? — Ken Brown Satis elequontiae, sapientiae parum.

Seriously, people.  Hit the coastal streams.  The searun cutthroat are in and many streams have summer steelhead as a bonus.  But seriously, my son and I target the cutthroat.  They are the best fly rising fish in the state–yes we fish on top–and it is not a 3 hour drive.   And if the fish are not cooperating–there is the beach, maybe the jetties, and a whole smorgasbord of good cafes and restaurants. Paul

Response:

The Deschutes is not 3 hours from Portland. It usually takes me less than two hours to get to Maupin where there is aproximately 25-30 miles of outstanding bank fishing for steelhead and Trout. (And plenty of whitefish if you are nymphing.)

Response:

Wait a minute!  The Deschutes River is NOT near Portland, Oregon. It’s gotta be a 3-4 hour drive, at least.  And it’s not that easy to fish from shore.  What about smaller streams on the slopes of Mt Hood or an hour or so west of Portland near Vernonia/Mist or down in Yamhill County (seem to remember some creeks in there near McMinnville – Yamhill River?)?  Anyway, if you consider total travel time, a 3-hour drive is fairly long way to go for an hour or two of fishing.  Where do busy Portlanders REALLY go? — Ken Brown Satis elequontiae, sapientiae parum.

Busy Portlanders aren’t real fisherpeople.  Real fisherpeople go to the …… Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                           Tom McGuane

Response:

: Busy Portlanders aren’t real fisherpeople.  Real fisherpeople go to …. Anywhere in Idaho? (Except Leitheiser… he bailed out.  Don’t really blame him, it’s tough to come back to Oregon waters after getting spoiled by all those big Cutts.) — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

I’ll be in the Portland, OR area the end of June – beginnig of July.  I’d appreciate suggestions on places to fish for 2 days (Sat and Sun).  I’ll have a car and don’t have to return to Portland Sat nite.. Thanks in advance for your help. Martin

Response:

I’ll be in the Portland, OR area the end of June – beginnig of July.  I’d appreciate suggestions on places to fish for 2 days (Sat and Sun).  I’ll have a car and don’t have to return to Portland Sat nite.. Thanks in advance for your help. Martin You may want to try the coastal streams–a lot closer than the Deschutes

and the searun cutthroats are the most wonderful fly rod fish you can find.  A friend of mine is a guide.  If you want to, call Glenn Young at (503) 642-4570. A secret–these fish are active surface takers!!!!! Let me know if you go and how you do. Paul

Response:

The Deschutes River – where else.  Call Kaufmann’s Streamborn in Portland for information on the Deschutes and guides (if you want or need one).

Response:

Wait a minute!  The Deschutes River is NOT near Portland, Oregon.   It’s gotta be a 3-4 hour drive, at least.  And it’s not that easy to fish from shore.  What about smaller streams on the slopes of Mt Hood or an hour or so west of Portland near Vernonia/Mist or down in Yamhill County (seem to remember some creeks in there near McMinnville – Yamhill River?)?  Anyway, if you consider total travel time, a 3-hour drive is fairly long way to go for an hour or two of fishing.  Where do busy Portlanders REALLY go? — Ken Brown Satis elequontiae, sapientiae parum.

Response:

writes: Wait a minute!  The Deschutes River is NOT near Portland, Oregon.   It’s gotta be a 3-4 hour drive, at least.  And it’s not that easy to fish from shore.

Whoa!  The Deschutes is about 100 miles from Portland via very good freeways.  This makes it about an hour and a half to an hour and three quarters travel time.  As for fishing from shore, you can’t legally fish from a boat unless you are disabled amd have the proper permits.  I’ll agree that you do have to wade it to flyfish, but that’s true of most any stream!

Response:

Question:

Recently I was looking out the window of a jet and daydreaming. As we passed over southern Montana I saw what seemed to be an isolated range of mountains with lots of lakes and streams. It looked beautiful. When I got home and checked the map it appeared to be the Wind River Range. Does anybody know if this is an interesting area for fly fishing and backpacking? Thanks. Charles Daniel

Response:

Recently I was looking out the window of a jet and daydreaming. As we passed over southern Montana I saw what seemed to be an isolated range of mountains with lots of lakes and streams. It looked beautiful. When I got home and checked the map it appeared to be the Wind River Range. Does anybody know if this is an interesting area for fly fishing and backpacking? Thanks. Charles Daniel

Charles: The Winds are indeed absolutely beautiful.  I have done a number of backpacking trips into various portions of the Winds and they have spectacular scenery and fabulous fishing.  I’ve been on lakes where you could literally catch 12"-16" cutthroats on about every cast. There are a number of trailheads on both the east and west sides of the range, and there are hundreds of lakes with fish in them.  You can get forest service maps of the range (I think it’s the Shoshone Natl. Forest and the office is in Pinedale, WY). The Winds are definitely worth a trip – or ten. Good luck, Bob

Response:

Recently I was looking out the window of a jet and daydreaming. As we passed over southern Montana I saw what seemed to be an isolated range of mountains with lots of lakes and streams. It looked beautiful. When I got home and checked the map it appeared to be the Wind River Range. Does anybody know if this is an interesting area for fly fishing and backpacking? Thanks. Charles Daniel

Better check your map again.  The Winds are in Wyoming.  However, they are a superb location for fishing and backpacking.  Some of the most beautiful country in the state is in the Winds. Don Kelly

Response:

Question:

There are ways to get a Sage for cheaper than the normal price.  I got my 590 RPL+ for quite a bit less than retail and its the same rod, brand new, not a second and I love it.

Don’t keep us in suspense…. I’m looking for a RPL Rick

Response:

You mean the inverse of capitalism – capitalism is when market demand determines the price not when a supplier controls the price. If all of us stopped buying because the price was too high then the prices would come down. That would be capitalism at work.

Exactly!  If Sage can’t send enough rods out the door, they’ll go to their distributors and lower the price.  In addition, your point is also an example of why the "price-setting" issue is legal.  As long as consumers have an opportunity to purchase other manufacturer’s similar goods (Orvis, Redington, etc), without fear that manufacturers are working in concert to keep prices high, the system (capitalism) will work.  I also think that many of us draw capitalism out to more than it truly is.  Your example shows only a possible by-product of capitalism.  The only inherent principle in capitalism is that of an economic system that allows for the private ownership of industry. My original intent with the first post was to show that, at least under the current laws, Sage’s (and others) policy on rod prices is legal. Federal Anti-Trust and price-fixing laws deal specifically with a group of manufacturers acting together to either restrict trade or keep prices high (or both).  What a single manufacturer does or doesn’t do with their products is, for the most part, entirely up to them and not currently addressed under law (as far as I know).  The moral or ethical considerations of a manufacturer’s policy is another thing entirely, and one that I probably agree with you on. Jerry Cobb Nashville, TN

Response:

two of my favorite rods are a 3 an 5 wt. redington.  great action and the price is right ( for me).

Response:

David, I have the model 490, 4 weight, Sage RPL+.  I’m not an experienced flyfisherman, and only have two other rods I’ve used extensively.  I started with a Wal-Mart special, moved up to the Sage, and also own an Orvis superfine 6 weight.  The Sage is stiffer, more powerful, and I fish it the most.  The Orvis flexes more easily and I have to force myself to wait longer between the backcast and forward cast to use it effectively. I would recommend you definitly try different rods and find one that suits your style or speed.  I can’t cast that far and still find that the majority of the fish I catch are within half my maximum range.   Look for a rod that you enjoy casting and you wouldn’t mind using all day. Good Luck. Ronny

Response:

: I am thinking about trying a RPL+, and have recently been looking at : some of the spring catalogues for prices.  Does everyone charge list : price (or close to it) or is there someplace that offers at least some : discount?  There must be some entrepreneurs out there  who are willing : to take a little less to make a sale. Sage sets the price. — Jeff Smith                                     Graduate student http://www.msc.cornell.edu/~jeffs         Cornell University, Ithaca, NY

Response:

Smith) writes: : I am thinking about trying a RPL+, and have recently been looking at : some of the spring catalogues for prices.  Does everyone charge list : price (or close to it) or is there someplace that offers at least some : discount?  There must be some entrepreneurs out there  who are willing : to take a little less to make a sale. Sage sets the price.

Although I’m not an antitrust lawyer, I seem to recall from lawschool that such "prics setting (i.e., price fixing)" is illegal and can land one in Leavenworth.  I recognize that Sage (or Orvis etc.) can suggest a retail price but I believe any effort to enforce it on independent dealers would be illegal.

Response:

I currently own several Sage SP rods and din’t even look twice at the new RPL+ rods when they came out.  I spent two weeks in Montana last October and my partner was fishing his brand new RPL+ 590-4.  I asked to cast it one day while we waited to load our drift boat, well the short story is that my wife is currently fishing with some darn nice Sage SP’s and I own two RPL+ series rods. 590-5 and 896-4, I have not been a big fan of four piece rods in the past, but I think you will find that these rods are amazingly easy to cast and shoot lots of line.   I kept my 390sp for my BWO & PMD fishing, but for most of my fishing the RPL+ is my new rod of choice. Cast one! Pask

Response:

: Smith) writes:

: : Sage sets the price. : : Although I’m not an antitrust lawyer, I seem to recall from lawschool : that such "prics setting (i.e., price fixing)" is illegal and can land : one in Leavenworth.  I recognize that Sage (or Orvis etc.) can suggest : a retail price but I believe any effort to enforce it on independent : dealers would be illegal. I talked to a guy at Dan Bailey’s who told me that Sage tells them what price they can sell the rod for.  As I did some looking around, I found that Bailey’s had the same price as everyone else.  You can check the sage website (http://www.sageflyfish.com/) to get the prices.  Prices are "suggested retail", but maybe if you undercut the price Sage might forget to supply the retailer the next year.  We’ve had a discussion about this before- I forget what the final upshot was. — Jeff Smith                                     Graduate student http://www.msc.cornell.edu/~jeffs         Cornell University, Ithaca, NY

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -: Although I’m not an antitrust lawyer, I seem to recall from lawschool : that such "prics setting (i.e., price fixing)" is illegal and can land : one in Leavenworth.  I recognize that Sage (or Orvis etc.) can suggest : a retail price but I believe any effort to enforce it on independent : dealers would be illegal. I talked to a guy at Dan Bailey’s who told me that Sage tells them what price they can sell the rod for.  As I did some looking around, I found that Bailey’s had the same price as everyone else.  You can check the sage website (http://www.sageflyfish.com/) to get the prices.  Prices are "suggested retail", but maybe if you undercut the price Sage might forget to supply the retailer the next year.

 I wonder if any lawyers at the Justice Department are flyfisherman or read this group. Mike Ray Atlatna, Ga Cashiers, NC  

Response:

There are ways to get a Sage for cheaper than the normal price.  I got my 590 RPL+ for quite a bit less than retail and its the same rod, brand new, not a second and I love it.  If anyone was paying attention about 3 months ago I was trying to sell one for under retail but got no takers so I basically gave it to my fishing partner for Christmas.  

Response:

Although I’m not an antitrust lawyer, I seem to recall from lawschool that such "prics setting (i.e., price fixing)" is illegal and can land one in Leavenworth.  I recognize that Sage (or Orvis etc.) can suggest a retail price but I believe any effort to enforce it on independent dealers would be illegal.

Michael Both "trust" and "price-fixing" refer to two or more parties acting in concert.  For example, if Sage and Orvis execs were to conference call and set a price for an indentical product (or very similar product), it would in all likelyhood be price-fixing and is illegal.  Similarly, if the same two companies were to attempt to organize their efforts in an attempt to dominate a market or industry, they are working in "trust," and is considered illegal.  The industrial giants of turn-of-the-century railroad and steel businesses come to mind. Any given manufacturer can REQUIRE its distributors to sell at a certain price, as long as it is part of the agreement to distribute the product, although typically the agreements state a retail price that cannot be lowered.  Any distributor can REFUSE to sell a manufacturer’s product if its terms do not meet the dist.’s needs/wants, such as too high a retail price, not enough margin, etc.  The whole thing reeks of capitalism if you ask me <VBG. Jerry Cobb Nashville, TN

Response:

Although I’m not an antitrust lawyer, I seem to recall from lawschool that such "prics setting (i.e., price fixing)" is illegal

Its not illegal as long as the pricing philosophy is applied to all vendors.  This practice is less common than it used to be, but is not uncommon with "premium" products whose image is based in part on a fixed, high, price. I’m going way back now — but I beleive this one went to the Supreme Court in the 70s. It was a hair-care manufacturer.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any given manufacturer can REQUIRE its distributors to sell at a certain price, as long as it is part of the agreement to distribute the product, although typically the agreements state a retail price that cannot be lowered.  Any distributor can REFUSE to sell a manufacturer’s product if its terms do not meet the dist.’s needs/wants, such as too high a retail price, not enough margin, etc.  The whole thing reeks of capitalism if you ask me <VBG. Jerry Cobb You mean the inverse of capitalism – capitalism is when market demand determines the price not when a supplier controls the price. If all of us stopped buying because the price was too high then the prices would come down. That would be capitalism at work.

Capitalism is rule by those who own the capital i.e., by the shareholders of Sage and Orvis.  We also own capital which we can invest, and this gives birth to free markets.  Strictly speaking though, capitalism is not the rule of the market, the market is a product of capitalism. — Keep your stick on the ice.

Response:

It’s ridiculous to call this price fixing.  Setting the price keeps Walmart and other big volume "businesses" from undercutting the price. It has been tried in the courts and found ok.     If you don’t like the price DON’T BUY IT!!!! An expensive fly rod is hardly an essential item.  They do cast better, but most any rod will cast better than the caster.  What’s sad is that the public can’t get enough of these expensive rods!  I’m sure that the materials, engineering, and demand are driving up the cost, but as long as people continue to be shell out the big bucks the manufacturers are not going to look for ways to cut costs.  I bet if someone came out with a rod with laser aligned guides people would buy it.  Americans just *have* to have the best.   Just my opinion, Rob Gregoire

Response:

Any given manufacturer can REQUIRE its distributors to sell at a certain price, as long as it is part of the agreement to distribute the product, although typically the agreements state a retail price that cannot be lowered.  Any distributor can REFUSE to sell a manufacturer’s product if its terms do not meet the dist.’s needs/wants, such as too high a retail price, not enough margin, etc.  The whole thing reeks of capitalism if you ask me <VBG. Jerry Cobb Nashville, TN

You mean the inverse of capitalism – capitalism is when market demand determines the price not when a supplier controls the price. If all of us stopped buying because the price was too high then the prices would come down. That would be capitalism at work.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Any given manufacturer can REQUIRE its distributors to sell at a certain price, as long as it is part of the agreement to distribute the product, although typically the agreements state a retail price that cannot be lowered.  Any distributor can REFUSE to sell a manufacturer’s product if its terms do not meet the dist.’s needs/wants, such as too high a retail price, not enough margin, etc.  The whole thing reeks of capitalism if you ask me <VBG. Jerry Cobb Nashville, TN You mean the inverse of capitalism – capitalism is when market demand determines the price not when a supplier controls the price. If all of us stopped buying because the price was too high then the prices would come down. That would be capitalism at work.

AMEN!

Response:

writes:  If you don’t like the price DON’T BUY IT!!!! An expensive fly rod is hardly an essential item.  They do cast better, but most any rod will cast better than the caster.  What’s sad is that the public can’t get enough of these expensive rods!  I’m sure that the materials, engineering, and demand are driving up the cost, but as long as people continue to be shell out the big bucks the manufacturers are not going to look for ways to cut costs.   Just my opinion, Rob Gregoire

Rob, thats the reason I’m trying to get one at less than MSR.

Response:

My buddy and I both have a 590 RPL+ and I am amazed at the difference it has in the casting and overall sensitivity.  Seriously they are unlike any rod I’ve ever thrown.  It takes some getting used to the new feel it has, but now I won’t put it down for my other rods.  Besides I’m not a big fan of noodle rods and the RPL+ rods are nice and stiff but forgiving in the tip.  Plus you can’t beat the warranty.  I’d definitely recommend one.

Response:

I am thinking about trying a RPL+, and have recently been looking at some of the spring catalogues for prices.  Does everyone charge list price (or close to it) or is there someplace that offers at least some discount?  There must be some entrepreneurs out there  who are willing to take a little less to make a sale. Atlanta, Georgia Cashiers, North Carolina

Response:

Has anyone out there had any experience with the new SAGE RPL+ flyrods.  Although I will cast before buy, Im relatively new to flyfishing and would appreciate comments.

I have cast but never fished an RPL+.  It is a hell of a parking lot rod.  It’s fairly easy to cast a lot of line with a nice tight lope (even for a lousy caster like me.  It’s a very fast action rod.  Whether it will work as well on the water depends, I think, on what type of fishing you will be doing with it and what sort of action you prefer.  Logically, it would seem to be a better big fish rod (e.g. steelhead) where long casts amy be necessary than a spring creek brook trout rod. I casted the 8 wt. and while it was lots of fun in the lot, I generally like a some what slower rod (I prefered the Sage SP). Anyway, that’s my $.02. Andy

Response:

Has anyone out there had any experience with the new SAGE RPL+ flyrods.  Although I will cast before buy, Im relatively new to flyfishing and would appreciate comments.

Response: