Question:

This is now the third sniper incident where we have been on the road and in close proximity when the shooting occurred.   — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

I was thinking about you when they first reported the age of the victim as 60.  Then they changed it to 37 and knew it couldn’t be you.  :-)  Glad all is well. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

I fished Lynnhaven Inlet yesterday morning in the early hours.  Speckled Trout were doing pretty well on the falling tide.  I couldn’t get close enough to the bridge to fish the pilings for stripers but saw the spinfishing pluggers catch several in the 6 – 10 lb. range.  After a shower and breakfast D. and I met up with friends for an afternoon of live theater then on to a marvelous dinner at Fellini’s of Norfolk.  Most of this is relatively unremarkable but on the way home we passed the Ashland Va. exit about 9:30.  We saw the south bound lanes of I-95 blocked and thought there was a traffic accident.  About 5 miles northbound on I-95 the traffic was at a stop.  Checking the radio we learned of the shooting in Ashland just an hour before.  This is now the third sniper incident where we have been on the road and in close proximity when the shooting occurred.  After a 4 hour wait while the interstate was blocked, traffic was released and we headed home. I have eaten at that Pondorosa a number of times, particularly when visiting Greentop Sporting Goods just down Rt. 1.  Greentops had the largest selection of fly fishing material for quite a distance until some new shops opened in the past couple of years.  It is interesting to note, that during the long wait on the interstate, there was no sense of motorists being disgruntled, frieghtened, or impatient.  There seemed to be 100% support for the law inforcement efforts to put an end to this sorry SOB.  I have become as prepared as I can to react should it ever become possible to respond in line of sight to this cowardly piece of shit. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

Response:

Question:

Ok here is my sob story. I am going to Phoenix to shoot the Kachina Open a skeet tourniment which ends on the 3rd of March. I cannot fly back to DC until the 5th of March. I have a whole day to kill anyone availalbe to take wayward Marine fishing? If I had the extra $$$$ I would go with a guide. I know that it is a shot in the dark. You can check out my webpage www.isoa.net/~rausman to find out more about me and what I do. Thanks for taking the time today . Ron

Response:

Ron, You might be in luck.  That very weekend is the International Sportsman Expo.  If you have some time to stop by the expo you there’s a lot people will be around that can give you some ideas.  Below are websites for my fly club and info about the sportsman’s expo.  Our club will have a booth at the show. Good Luck, Eric http://www.desertflycasters.com/ http://www.sportsexpos.com/consumer/pr.cfm?locationnumber=6

Response:

I will be up at Ben Avery working the registration desk and shooting. I wish that I had the time. If you get done early on sunday come up to the range the shoot offs will be going on and I will be getting read to ride up to flagstaff. Thanks Ron

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ron, You might be in luck.  That very weekend is the International Sportsman Expo.  If you have some time to stop by the expo you there’s a lot people will be around that can give you some ideas.  Below are websites for my fly club and info about the sportsman’s expo.  Our club will have a booth at the show. Good Luck, Eric http://www.desertflycasters.com/ http://www.sportsexpos.com/consumer/pr.cfm?locationnumber=6

Response:

Since I’ve relocated to Massachusetts, I can’t help. But I can tell you to head north out of Phoenix on I-17, take Rt. 260 toward Cottonwood, and head north on 89A. For the full effect, take Hwy 69 into Prescott and then follow 89A all the way to Flagstaff. Oak Creek Canyon is God’s Country – one of the most beautiful places on earth. Not to mention all the high desert and red rock area you’ll pass along the way. You may decide not to fish because you’ll be stopping every five minutes to take pictures. Believe me, you can easily kill the entire day. I’ve done it several times while (not?) attending seminars in Phoenix. Tim Very jealous, and longing for the Great West.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok here is my sob story. I am going to Phoenix to shoot the Kachina Open a skeet tourniment which ends on the 3rd of March. I cannot fly back to DC until the 5th of March. I have a whole day to kill anyone availalbe to take wayward Marine fishing? If I had the extra $$$$ I would go with a guide. I know that it is a shot in the dark. You can check out my webpage www.isoa.net/~rausman to find out more about me and what I do. Thanks for taking the time today . Ron

Response:

Yes I am retiring soon. So sign me up for that PFC program. Ron

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to Phoenix to shoot the Kachina Open a skeet tourniment which ends on the 3rd of March. I cannot fly back to DC until the 5th of March. I have a whole day to kill anyone availalbe to take wayward Marine fishing? If I had the extra $$$$ I would go with a guide. Hey Gunny, are you retiring from the Marines this summer?  We have some old decrepit retirees in this bunch, so welcome aboard as a PFC and a newly retired Marine. If you’re not retiring, then unregard the foregoing. Many years ago I did some competitive shooting in the Air Force, never made it to the Nationals though, they wouldn’t allow flintlock muskets.  Naw, we just fooled around with M1 Garands and 1917 03A3 Springfields. Can’t help you out with your dilemma in Phoenix though, but have a good time. Frank Church USAF RETIRED

Response:

I am going to Phoenix to shoot the Kachina Open a skeet tourniment which ends on the 3rd of March. I cannot fly back to DC until the 5th of March. I have a whole day to kill anyone availalbe to take wayward Marine fishing? If I had the extra $$$$ I would go with a guide.

Hey Gunny, are you retiring from the Marines this summer?  We have some old decrepit retirees in this bunch, so welcome aboard as a PFC and a newly retired Marine. If you’re not retiring, then unregard the foregoing. Many years ago I did some competitive shooting in the Air Force, never made it to the Nationals though, they wouldn’t allow flintlock muskets.  Naw, we just fooled around with M1 Garands and 1917 03A3 Springfields. Can’t help you out with your dilemma in Phoenix though, but have a good time. Frank Church USAF RETIRED

Response:

Question:

rw wrote… How do you jump from spring creek fishing to Silver Creek?   ??? Could someone please explain to me what that means? Silver Creek IS a spring creek. It’s the finest spring creek I’ve ever seen.

The goggbly gook of the gizmo’s flux capacitor was fubared because of the do-hickey thingy malfunction due to an error of the whateveryacallit.   Thus Silver Creek has nothing to do with it? — Warren Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

Montana, for sake of good order, is the number one fly fishing state in the Untied States and it services more fly fishermen than any other because it has classic waters most of which are in the Jellybean Park area that lure them all, like "The Fire Hole!" etc. All States have pay as you go fly fishing Jeffrey.  Take it from here. It costs money to fly fish America, no matter where you go.  Outdoor Recreation is for two kinds of outdoorsmen.  Those who pay their way and poachers.  There is no middle ground. George Gehrke The Leaf Will Fall – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like it or not, Outdoor Recreation IS a rich man’s sport.  It’s been this way a very long time Jeff. The POINT is – you said Two States that have more "Classic Trout Waters" above all others are first, Montana and second, Colorado.  Idaho trout waters are much too commercialized … By that you meant Spring Creek fishing by appointment and bucks only, for starters – Well, what about "rod fees" in Montana?  DePuy’s Spring Creek, O’Hair’s/Armstrong’s Spring Creek:, Nelson’s Spring Creek, McCoy Ranch Spring Creeks, O’Dell in Ennis that I mentioned?  Most of these places are books months in advance for the busy season.  Sorry, if that’s your criteria for "classic", then Montana doesn’t make the list either.

Response:

How do you jump from spring creek fishing to Silver Creek?  

??? Could someone please explain to me what that means? Silver Creek IS a spring creek. It’s the finest spring creek I’ve ever seen. Secondly, where does "Honor" have to do with joining anything?  

It’s like when an organization like the Nature Conservancy saves and restores a fantastic spring creek and then people begrudge them a modest donation for fishing it. Thirdly, the Nature Conservatory costs money and only working people can afford to pay for outdoor recreation which was one of my points and lastly, I didn’t screw up at all R.W.

It costs $25 a year to join. If you aren’t a member they request a $5/day donation to fish Silver Creek, but that’s VOLUNTARY. And you can just fish the excellent non-Conservancy water if it bothers you. No "appointments" are necessary in either case. Big time screw up. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

George Gehrke wrote… Wayne?  You seem to forget who was the first to suggest a "Conclave" for Roff.  In fact, someone in North Carolina even asked at the time, "What is a Conclave?" Naturally, I explained and the first Roff Conclave started.

Sorry George, but I am not buying this.  Perhaps you can provide the proof for you claim, but I searched google and came up with this: http://makeashorterlink.com/?X48B1164 Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly, rec.outdoors.fishing, alt.fishing http://makeashorterlink.com/?G4AB6264 The first mention I have found so far of a ROFF conclave. Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2BB2164 Mr Vinsel’s first suggestion of a "conclave" Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly http://makeashorterlink.com/?M29B1364 The first  mention of "conclave" searched under the author "Mr G" regarding something other than a FFF conclave. Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly — Warren Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, George.

Good post, many agree. <g — Charlie…

Response:

How do you jump from spring creek fishing to Silver Creek?  Secondly, where does "Honor" have to do with joining anything?  Thirdly, the Nature Conservatory costs money and only working people can afford to pay for outdoor recreation which was one of my points and lastly, I didn’t screw up at all R.W. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Spring Creek fishing by appointment and bucks only, for starters – You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, George. Silver Creek is free of charge, and there’s no rod limit. All you need is a valid Idaho fishing license. If you fish in the Nature Conservancy you’re asked for a donation, but it’s voluntary. The honorable thing to do is to join the Nature Conservancy, which costs very little. There’s a stretch with excellent public access that’s every bit as good as the Conservancy. I’ve fished several times on Silver Creek when I saw no other anglers. I even took my dogs. If you go on the weekend during the Brown Drake hatch you’ll have some company. I avoid that. Some of the water is private, but much of the best part is public. You can even float-tube through private water because, unlike in "user friendly" Utah, Idaho property owners don’t own the creek. What’s more, Silver Creek is hardly typical of Idaho flyfishing. Admit it, George. You really fucked up on this one. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Like it or not, Outdoor Recreation IS a rich man’s sport.  It’s been this way a very long time Jeff.

The POINT is – you said Two States that have more "Classic Trout Waters" above all others are first, Montana and second, Colorado.  Idaho trout waters are much too commercialized …

By that you meant Spring Creek fishing by appointment and bucks only, for starters –

Well, what about "rod fees" in Montana?  DePuy’s Spring Creek, O’Hair’s/Armstrong’s Spring Creek:, Nelson’s Spring Creek, McCoy Ranch Spring Creeks, O’Dell in Ennis that I mentioned?  Most of these places are books months in advance for the busy season.  Sorry, if that’s your criteria for "classic", then Montana doesn’t make the list either.

Response:

Since you seemed interested enough to answer, I assume you’d attend if there was one? Willi

        my heart is set on the henry’s fork.  i’ve been to colorado, but never to idaho.  the pictures are better up there. your friend in the old north state wayno

Response:

Usually, it takes two to three days to understand and learn individual drainage systems besides the traveling.

heh heh  The worst thing a Conclave can do is try and fish too many waters.  I think the Colorado Conclave should pick only one main river per week.

Oh fer cryin’ out loud

Response:

        my heart is set on the henry’s fork.  i’ve been to colorado, but never to idaho.  the pictures are better up there.

Hope you make it. I’m looking forward to a return trip. Some gorgeous country (the country right around Henry’s Fork isn’t as dramatic as it is around Steve’s place but beautiful in its own way) and LOTS of great water. Willi

Response:

I’m in – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Someone mentioned the idea of a Colorado Clave a while back.  Perhaps George?  Is that clave going to turn into a reality? Paul         you have got to be kidding. your friend in the old north state wayno Since you seemed interested enough to answer, I assume you’d attend if there was one? Willi

Response:

Hope you make it. I’m looking forward to a return trip. Some gorgeous country (the country right around Henry’s Fork isn’t as dramatic as it is around Steve’s place but beautiful in its own way) and LOTS of great water.

Wayno can probably find some decent postcards in Island Park. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Wayne?  You seem to forget who was the first to suggest a "Conclave" for Roff.  In fact, someone in North Carolina even asked at the time, "What is a Conclave?" Naturally, I explained and the first Roff Conclave started. Is your memory as long as your next step dear friend? sigh*! George Gehrke Mr. Conclave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Someone mentioned the idea of a Colorado Clave a while back.  Perhaps George?  Is that clave going to turn into a reality? Paul         you have got to be kidding. your friend in the old north state wayno

Response:

Spring Creek fishing by appointment and bucks only, for starters – You think the most famous examples of that aren’t in Montana?  Shit, even the creek across the street from where I stayed in Ennis charged $50 a day to fish there – if they weren’t already booked.

Not to mention that it’s completely false. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Spring Creek fishing by appointment and bucks only, for starters –

You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, George. Silver Creek is free of charge, and there’s no rod limit. All you need is a valid Idaho fishing license. If you fish in the Nature Conservancy you’re asked for a donation, but it’s voluntary. The honorable thing to do is to join the Nature Conservancy, which costs very little. There’s a stretch with excellent public access that’s every bit as good as the Conservancy. I’ve fished several times on Silver Creek when I saw no other anglers. I even took my dogs. If you go on the weekend during the Brown Drake hatch you’ll have some company. I avoid that. Some of the water is private, but much of the best part is public. You can even float-tube through private water because, unlike in "user friendly" Utah, Idaho property owners don’t own the creek. What’s more, Silver Creek is hardly typical of Idaho flyfishing. Admit it, George. You really fucked up on this one. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Spring Creek fishing by appointment and bucks only, for starters – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Idaho trout waters are much too commercialized and not user friendly as is Utah’s. I really wonder how you’ve come up with that one. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Spring Creek fishing by appointment and bucks only, for starters –

You think the most famous examples of that aren’t in Montana?  Shit, even the creek across the street from where I stayed in Ennis charged $50 a day to fish there – if they weren’t already booked.

Response:

Like it or not, Outdoor Recreation IS a rich man’s sport.  It’s been this way a very long time Jeff.   George Gehrke "Who’s Boat Carries 90 GALLONS of fuel" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Spring Creek fishing by appointment and bucks only, for starters – You think the most famous examples of that aren’t in Montana?  Shit, even the creek across the street from where I stayed in Ennis charged $50 a day to fish there – if they weren’t already booked.

Response:

Idaho trout waters are much too commercialized and not user friendly as is Utah’s.  

I really wonder how you’ve come up with that one. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Two States that have more "Classic Trout Waters" above all others are first, Montana and second, Colorado.  Wyoming waters are mostly wind blown, far and few in between but nice.  Idaho trout waters are much too commercialized and not user friendly as is Utah’s.  Oregon is a State of vast diversity as it Northern California up through the State of Washington.  Northern New Mexico is likewise rather restricted because of the large land grants but the San Juan is only a small window of what the main spur of the Rocky Mountain Chain has to offer away from main population areas.  But Colorado, and most anything on the WESTERN SIDE of the Continental Divide away from Denver is a mix that has variety beyond your wildest dreams if you’re willing to get away from the main roads.  Colorado is blessed with a perfect summer climate and her mountains bank enough snow to keep her trout streams balanced and cool though out the year.  A Conclave through Colorado down to the Delores River and the San Juan over a period of three to four weeks is a Conclave worth attending.   Usually, it takes two to three days to understand and learn individual drainage systems besides the traveling.  The worst thing a Conclave can do is try and fish too many waters.  I think the Colorado Conclave should pick only one main river per week. The other option is fish as you go.  Just travel along and stay by any river for as many days a caravan happens upon and everyone staying in a main commercial camp site with showers, etc. George Gehrke Winnebago Camping Bum – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Someone mentioned the idea of a Colorado Clave a while back.  Perhaps George?  Is that clave going to turn into a reality? Paul         you have got to be kidding. your friend in the old north state wayno Since you seemed interested enough to answer, I assume you’d attend if there was one? Willi

Response:

Someone mentioned the idea of a Colorado Clave a while back.  Perhaps George?  Is that clave going to turn into a reality? Paul Why don’t you make it a reality?

Good Point!  I just left Colorado after living in the state for 35 years and was thinking a clave would be a good reason to return this summer…   If people are interested, I might be willing to put something together. Paul

Response:

Someone mentioned the idea of a Colorado Clave a while back.  Perhaps George?  Is that clave going to turn into a reality? Paul         you have got to be kidding. your friend in the old north state wayno

Since you seemed interested enough to answer, I assume you’d attend if there was one? Willi

Response:

Someone mentioned the idea of a Colorado Clave a while back.  Perhaps George?  Is that clave going to turn into a reality? Paul

Why don’t you make it a reality? Willi

Response:

Someone mentioned the idea of a Colorado Clave a while back.  Perhaps George?  Is that clave going to turn into a reality? Paul

        you have got to be kidding. your friend in the old north state wayno

Response:

Someone mentioned the idea of a Colorado Clave a while back.  Perhaps George?  Is that clave going to turn into a reality? Paul

Response:

Question:

For four months in the mid seventies I lived in a tool shed and ate mostly what I could forage from the surrounding woods and fields.  

When I was a kid my brother and I had to hike 10 miles to school each way. It was tough in the winter. A hungry pack of wolves would follow us, and we had to watch out for those wild Indians with their bows and arrows. At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

I don’t suppose it depends upon the scales? — Mr.Gink "the saga continues"   http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjul00.html

Response:

When I was a kid my brother and I had to hike 10 miles to school each way. It was tough in the winter. A hungry pack of wolves would follow us, and we had to watch out for those wild Indians with their bows and arrows. At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian.

City boy<g. Why when I was in school… — Charlie…

Response:

At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian.

Show ‘em Evian spelled backwards…and then make ‘em pay it themselves…<G. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian. Show ‘em Evian spelled backwards…and then make ‘em pay it themselves…<G.

Really. One time I filled an Evian bottle with tap water and put it back in the refrigerator. My wife and kids never noticed the difference, but man were they pissed. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

So, how would one go about actually helping someone directly who is actually hungry or poor when one doesn’t know any such people?

Not sure whether you are really asking how to help them or how to find them.  In either case I can only answer…..huh?

Response:

So, how would one go about actually helping someone directly who is actually hungry or poor when one doesn’t know any such people? Not sure whether you are really asking how to help them or how to find them.  In either case I can only answer…..huh?

Think of some of the things we’ve been talking about.  Scam artists who pose as poor, out of luck people.  Poor people who will not take charity.  Basically I’m someone who’s decided not to give money to charitable organizations (through a third party).  (I’ve done *work* for charitable organizations.) But, I’d happily buy a meal or give a gift to a poor family if I could find people who are actually poor and would accept something without finding me condascending.  This has happened to me, but the more I think about it, not often enough.  How do you find a person truly in need, and how would you actually approach them? Regards, Jeff

Response:

When I was a kid my brother and I had to hike 10 miles to school each way.

You had schools???  We used to sleep in a shoe box, and had to get up a half hour before we went to bed.  For breakfast we got a lump of cold poison. At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian.

And you know what that spells backward….  :-) Regards, Jeff

Response:

Think of some of the things we’ve been talking about.  Scam artists who pose as poor, out of luck people.  

Giving money to panhandlers is the equivalent of feeding the bears at Yellowstone Park. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

If somebody only had a good drink, and in some poor way managed to forget his problems for a while ( not a solution I would generally recommend however), then it was worth the money. Perhaps it did him more good than a meal. Who knows?

Maybe so.  But I would still gladly buy a poor person a meal but not give money to some guy who profits from the transaction.  And I would rather buy someone a meal than give them the money.  It just pisses me off when I get scammed.  Just 2 weeks ago a guy in the parking lot of a supermarket told me his car broke down and he had to get his wife and daughter back home on the bus that night, so could he have enough money to pay for the 3 tickets.  As I was pondering this, it finally dawned on me that this was the same guy I gave money to almost exactly a year before, with the exact same shpiel (shp?) So, how would one go about actually helping someone directly who is actually hungry or poor when one doesn’t know any such people? Regards, Jeff

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<good story snipped Nice story Mike.  Hopefully you will post this one to your website. bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

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"Mike Connor"     In my youth, I was a member of one of those families who "simply had nothing."  I was 5 and I remember this old guy, he must have been 10 or 11 who would come to our back door on a Saturday morning with a sackful of potatoes.   He’d scavanged them from the ground under the conveyor belt at the processing plant.  Some times I was in the back garden as he dropped them off, most times they just appeared.  He took keen interest in what I was doing, whether building a house with twigs or staging a war with my toy soldiers.    You, that kid with the potatoes and millions of other anonymous souls around the world are the ones that allowed many of us to grow up and escape that poverty.  You live day by day and finally, with a little help, things start to improve, opportunities open up and you make the best of them. Those of us who’ve been there cannot truly express our thanks to you in the way it should be given, so we attempt to put something back into those neigborhoods of our youth.     However, when the light shines on one of those giving souls, they are caught, as those fish you caught.  You have now become a proxie for that "old guy" of my youth.  I want to personnally thank you for your effort and caring.  Thank you friend.                                         Frank Reid

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Frank,    I grew up in the 1930’s and my family didn’t  have very much either.  No matter how little you had you could always find someone who had less.  One of my friends lived with his grandmother and I went with him every week to meet the welfare truck to help him carry anything he might be lucky enough to get.  I remember one week he got a crate of oranges.  I skinned my shins against the box as we carried to his home and I wondered how you could live on oranges for a week. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Mike Connor"     In my youth, I was a member of one of those families who "simply had nothing."  I was 5 and I remember this old guy, he must have been 10 or 11 who would come to our back door on a Saturday morning with a sackful of potatoes.   He’d scavanged them from the ground under the conveyor belt at the processing plant.  Some times I was in the back garden as he dropped them off, most times they just appeared.  He took keen interest in what I was doing, whether building a house with twigs or staging a war with my toy soldiers.    You, that kid with the potatoes and millions of other anonymous souls around the world are the ones that allowed many of us to grow up and escape that poverty.  You live day by day and finally, with a little help, things start to improve, opportunities open up and you make the best of them. Those of us who’ve been there cannot truly express our thanks to you in the way it should be given, so we attempt to put something back into those neigborhoods of our youth.     However, when the light shines on one of those giving souls, they are caught, as those fish you caught.  You have now become a proxie for that "old guy" of my youth.  I want to personnally thank you for your effort and caring.  Thank you friend.                                         Frank Reid

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Surprisingly enough Ernie, you can live for a week or even considerably longer, on more or less nothing. Problems arise when this continues for long periods, and one is forced to eat stuff that one would not normally touch. I remember all too well the first time my mother brought home a "bucket of scraps" which was all we had in the house for several days.  "Scraps" are the remains of fish, chips, batter etc soaked in lard, which are scraped out of the large frying pans used in fish and chip shops when they are cleaned. A bucket full cost a couple of pennies, and there was often a queue for this stuff.  I only ever ate the stuff a couple of times, but I can taste it still, and even the smell makes me feel ill.  I can not stomach even entering a fish and chip shop to this day, and I remember my wife being very surprised when we visited London once and she wanted to try fish and chips, and I simply could not stay in the queue which had  formed at the counter, as I was in severe danger of throwing up.  This sort of thing plays hell with peoples health as well.  It may not have appeared so in my story, but I was indeed one of the lucky ones, I had the means and the drive to go and catch fish, "find" "wayward" sheep, and even go and dig up "wild" potatoes or vegetables, or collect fruit and stuff in summer,  should this prove necessary. I also collected seacoal and wood, from the beaches, so we always had something to burn in winter, which was much more than many others had, and we never actually got anywhere even close to starving or freezing.  Although some I knew got close to it. Many of the people I knew at that time were sunk so deeply in apathy as a result of their poverty, that they could not help themselves, and even under those conditions, some were far too proud to accept "charity".  What little money they received from various sources, usually social security or similar, was often wasted in vain attempts at momentary escape from their respective plights, or even astoundingly enough,  pathetic attempts at "keeping up the show". Drunkenness was common, and many a wife and child beating took place, when some men lucky enough to have them, came home from their jobs late on a Friday night, after having drunk most of their relatively meagre pay in the local pubs. They were often also poorly educated, reviled by other sections of the community, and generally treated like dirt. Poverty is a deadly disease, it saps ones energy, removes any perspective of improvement for many, releases large amounts of criminal energy, mostly driven by hopelessness, and the feeling that things can get no worse anyway, whatever one does, often induces a positive fear of authority, and inevitably results in an early grave, as it did for both my father and my mother, and many many others I knew at that time. It may also reveal facets of human nature that are not normally obvious, not all of which are negative. A little kindness may cost a man of means virtually nothing, but may go a very long way to helping somebody far less fortunate. The world would be a far better place if some were bound to wonder as you did, how one may live on oranges for a week, and then consider those who did not even have the oranges, and in many places still do not. One of the reasons I so loved angling and anglers, as I still do, was because I met more "gentlemen" of a kind, honest, and helpful nature while doing it, than I have ever met anywhere else, I can not remember any of them being otherwise really, although of course they were all different in their ways.   Fortunately this is still the case as far as most are concerned, and is certainly the case here on ROFF. One of the reasons I enjoy it so much, and why it is worth defending.  This may sound a little overboard to some, but I believe it is so, and I am not ashamed to say so. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frank,    I grew up in the 1930’s and my family didn’t  have very much either.  No matter how little you had you could always find someone who had less.  One of my friends lived with his grandmother and I went with him every week to meet the welfare truck to help him carry anything he might be lucky enough to get.  I remember one week he got a crate of oranges.  I skinned my shins against the box as we carried to his home and I wondered how you could live on oranges for a week. Ernie

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Mike,    I can understand why you would dislike fish and chips to this day. I had some at Ramsdens (sp?) in Northern England which were excellent. Ernie "Mike Connor" wrote <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember all too well the first time my mother brought home a "bucket of scraps" which was all we had in the house for several days <snip TL MC

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One of the reasons I so loved angling and anglers, as I still do, was because I met more "gentlemen" of a kind, honest, and helpful nature while doing it, than I have ever met anywhere else, I can not remember any of them being otherwise really, although of course they were all different in their ways.   Fortunately this is still the case as far as most are concerned, and is certainly the case here on ROFF. One of the reasons I enjoy it so much, and why it is worth defending.  This may sound a little overboard to some, but I believe it is so, and I am not ashamed to say so. TL MC – .

And, indeed, Mike, you honor us all by doing so.  You certainly do not need my encouragement to continue your course, but you have it, nonetheless. Bravo! Tom — Tom Brown Wake Forest, NC

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Perhaps we are just perverse?

At the risk of having Ernie thump me on the head again I will repeat something I posted some time ago on ROFF.   It has been my experience that to most in America being hungry means trying to remember the last time you missed a meal.  In fact, being hungry means trying to remember the last time you HAD a good meal. Who’s perverse?

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An excellent analysis.  One other point occurred to me. Referring to a particular group of society as "the poor", is one of the reasons why people find it easy to avoid any identification with those so afflicted, it is easy to forget that we are talking about people here,  and the word itself is a stigma. As for many politicians, well I think it probably better to refrain from comment, waste of time anyway. Hardly seems worth the trouble criticising people who mainly appear to tell lies, and manipulate others for a living. If somebody only had a good drink, and in some poor way managed to forget his problems for a while ( not a solution I would generally recommend however), then it was worth the money. Perhaps it did him more good than a meal. Who knows? I have not been hungry for a very long time either, but curiously enough, just like you, I remember exactly what it was like. In fact I remember it far more clearly than any of the times I have been ripped off, (also uncountable I fear),  or sat at sumptuous meals in equally sumptuous surroundings. Perhaps we are just perverse? TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

money to someone to buy him a decent meal and see him lying drunk in the – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – gutter a couple of hours later.  Don’t know how many times this has happened or how much it’s cost me but I STILL haven’t been hungry since 1975.

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Cold, the rattling noise was caused by my teeth chattering loudly, as I shivered uncontrollably yet again.  Cheap anoraks and jeans are not really all that efficient at keeping one warm,

        (snip)         simply amazing.  very, very few of us have ever been to that place. wayno

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Well, to paraphrase: Give a boy a fish and he feeds himself, teach him to fish, and he feeds a village… TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Secondly, if you want to know how much a fish is worth, wait until you and your family are hungry, and carry a sackfull on your back to feed them. This will doubtless colour any subsequent ideas you might have on the matter considerably. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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Thanks for that little dose of reality – a good reminder is a neccesity these days. Peter

So would a speller checker on this newsreader!!! Peter

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When I read both your posts, I couldn’t help thinking of some of the politicians today who consider the poor to be cheats and slackers, not worthy of help.

I think part of the problem is that there *are* a few cheats and slackers, making it difficult to know which are which, even if the cheats are relatively few.  This is especially a problem since the people of means to help the poor are usually don’t live in close enough proximity to be able to figure it out on their own on a day-to-day basis.  I’ve personally been ripped off enough times that now I only volunteer my time and effort, never money.  I wish it were different. Regards, Jeff

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When I read both your posts, I couldn’t help thinking of some of the politicians today who consider the poor to be cheats and slackers, not worthy of help. I think part of the problem is that there *are* a few cheats and slackers, making it difficult to know which are which, even if the cheats are relatively few.  This is especially a problem since the people of means to help the poor are usually don’t live in close enough proximity to be able to figure it out on their own on a day-to-day basis.  I’ve personally been ripped off enough times that now I only volunteer my time and effort, never money.  I wish it were different.

Yes, there are cheats and slackers and no, it’s not part of the problem.  There are cheats and slackers in congress, in corporate offices, in academia, in churches, and in every other segment of society.  No one wants to dismantle any of these and no one thinks seriously about punishing them all for the sins of the few.  I repeat, it’s not part of the problem….it’s a different problem.  You are right about one thing; the people with the greatest means to help the poor generally do not live in close proximity.  Even when they do though, it is generally not the people with the greatest means who do the most to help.  Must be afraid of getting ripped off……might make them late for dinner. For four months in the mid seventies I lived in a tool shed and ate mostly what I could forage from the surrounding woods and fields.  I lost over forty pounds in that time and spent most of my time doing virtually nothing for lack of energy or incentive.  This is not a lament.  Unlike many millions of people around the world (and even here in the richest country in the history of the world) I always had options.  Eventually, I availed myself of an opportunity to get plugged back into the mainstream.  I have never been truly hungry since 1975, but I remember.  I’ve been ripped off lots of times since then….given money to someone to buy him a decent meal and see him lying drunk in the gutter a couple of hours later.  Don’t know how many times this has happened or how much it’s cost me but I STILL haven’t been hungry since 1975.

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[reality snipped] When I read both your posts, I couldn’t help thinking of some of the politicians today who consider the poor to be cheats and slackers, not worthy of help.  Our current premier once remarked that single welfare mothers spend their money on beer.  One of his first acts was to substantially reduce both welfare payouts and eligibilty, putting many people onto the street.  He’s now out to privatise co-op housing – putting more on the street.  I can’t help thinking that a week of subsiting on a bucket of scraps would help his perspective immensely. Thanks for that little dose of reality – a good reminder is a neccesity these days. Peter

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Cold, the rattling noise was caused by my teeth chattering loudly, as I shivered uncontrollably yet again.  Cheap anoraks and jeans are not really all that efficient at keeping one warm, pulling the collar up around my neck once more, I snuggled into the corner of the life-belt storage cupboard, and tried to think warm.  Walking the six miles or so along the clifftops and climbing down to the pier had kept me warm enough, and I had not really noticed how cold it was, but I was noticing now alright! Climbing up the icy steel pier legs in the pre-dawn dark with my gear had even caused me to start sweating, and I was paying for that now too. Cold sweat is very cold indeed.  Frosty clouds formed every time I exhaled, and the freezing spray from the stormy sea had soaked me fairly well through from the other side of my clothing as well. Nobody else was on the pier, quite unusual, as the tides were quite propitious, and the recent storms would almost certainly have brought some cod or whiting, and perhaps a few other fish closer in.  Leaving my temporary shelter, I moved out into the full force of the wind and spray, and surveyed the scene, dark clouds, swirling angry seas, and a long procession of heavy breakers crashing against the pier, causing it to  sway ominously under my feet.  Occasional banks of freezing fog rolled rapidly landwards, driven by a capricious but powerful wind, with clear patches now and again, allowing one odd glimpses of the land, and the cliff head, often covering the pier slipway, obliterating it, and making it seem as if one was standing on a tower with no land connection. Although dawn had broken, the weather was such that this was by no means apparent, it was still fairly dark, and it took me half an age to get my "storm-lantern",which consisted of a candle in a milk bottle with holes drilled around the bottom,  going, so that I had enough light to assemble my gear. This piece of equipment also did sterling service as a hand warmer. High tide was not for another two hours, but with freezing fingers occasionally warmed on the milk bottle, I painfully started to assemble my gear anyway.  Seven feet of solid fibreglass rod, an ancient wooden "Scarborough" centrepin reel with a hundred yards of forty pound line, an eight ounce lead, and a trace on which was mounted a set of three of my latest "secret weapons". Most of the blokes I met on the pier and elsewhere invariably laughed when seeing this for the first time, some kindly souls even offering me bait and other stuff, which however I always declined.  After a while, quite a few got to know me, as I literally haunted some venues when the fish were there, and was treated like a "regular", although even at that tender age I was considered eccentric, I was twelve at the time.  Not everybody knew my name, and many referred to me as "that fly-tying lad", not unkindly, but in that certain way that suggested I had at least a couple of screws loose.  Nobody actually tapped their foreheads, at least not in my presence, but I often got the feeling that they were about to. Fly-fishing at that time was something which the "gentry" did, and they did not do it in Winter in the North Sea. Standard procedure for serious sea anglers at the time was a multiplying reel, thirty to forty pound line, a minimum four ounce lead, and large baits, usually  consisting of lugworm, ragworm, peeler crab, herring strips, mussels, or various combinations of these. One or two hook rigs were used, these were cast out, the rod was put in a stand, or leaned against the pier railings etc, and a bite was awaited. Some clipped small bells on their rod tips and went to sleep while awaiting such a serendipitous event, others wandered around talking to their mates, smoking and drinking tea, or other "fortifying" beverages, often requiring them to make mad dashes down the length of the pier when their bells rung, and their rods threatened to go over the side. More well to do anglers, had "radium" lights, which were filled with luminescent radioactive gas, cost a veritable fortune, and were screwed or clipped to the rod tip. Occasionally some unfortunate would bugger up a cast, or forget to remove his clip light from his rod before casting, and the light sailed off into the distance, often accompanied by a cracking sound as the terminal tackle followed it on its way to the watery depths, which in turn was accompanied by a steady stream of inventive and colourful profanity, often to the amusement and elucidation of all present, especially some of the younger lads, who presumably laboured for some considerable time under the misapprehension that "fucking" and similar equally unprintable epithets had something to do with radioactive tip-lights. Someone chucking a bell away was not nearly as enlightening for bystanders, and elicited rather less interest. Some inevitably became curious about my gear, especially if I had caught a bagfull on my "hairy fancies" as one gentleman once described my flies. My intention at that time when fishing, was invariably to catch a bagfull, and that in the cheapest and most efficient way possible. My family, and not a small number of my neighbours, depended on it for a decent dinner.  Having had some success with flies in freshwater, I had turned my attentions to the North Sea, as the fish were usually bigger, and there were a lot more of them. Bait was difficult to acquire, and was far too expensive to buy, so I had resolved to try "fly-fishing" there as well. This particular set of "hairy fancies" were made up of 3/0 Mustad stainless steel "beak" hooks, wrapped with silver tinsel, and sporting "wings" of various coloured bucktail.  My technique was quite simple, albeit somewhat strenuous. With a  two or three step "run-up", a whirl very similar to that performed by a hammer thrower,  and a mighty twisting overhead heave, usually instilling considerable fear and amazement in the hearts and minds of any innocent bystanders, especially those who used "normal" gear, even in those who had seen it before, putting an awe inspiring bend into the old solid glass rod, the heavy wooden centrepin was forced into revolving at a speed for which it was never designed, producing thereby the most amazing noises, faintly reminiscent of a defective differential gear, or a rusty dungeon door being swung at high speed. This despite regular applications of fat to the "bearing", the while being braked by the thumb of my right hand to prevent the otherwise inevitable and horrendous "birds nest",  and the "flies" hurtled out, carried by the eight ounce lead, to land with an almighty splash, which could be heard even in the worst of storms and gales, as it was rarely more than about forty yards away when it struck the water. Which circumstance however had the pleasant side-effect of always assuring me plenty of room, even when the pier was crowded. My "flies" were then retrieved at various speeds and in various modes, until I caught a fish.  This happy event occurred surprisingly often, much to the chagrin of those who had previously laughed, and who notwithstanding their veritable armouries of wonderful and often expensive equipment had still not caught anything. Fortunately nobody was frightened half to death on this occasion, as there was nobody there. Having assembled my gear, I essayed my first cast of the day. This cast was always of the utmost importance, and had to be executed with considerable care, in fact the first few casts had to be done in such a way, as otherwise a jam up was quite likely, and the loss of expensive terminal gear inevitable. A careful and relatively modest thirty yard cast was the order of the day. Having accomplished this, I took up the slack, and placing the line over my right index finger, the butt of my rod tucked under my elbow, and my left hand supporting it by holding the rim of the reel, I started a jigging retrieve. Thump! and thump! again, heaving back on the rod I struck, and proceeded to haul in a couple of lively fish, beautiful whiting well over a pound each. These were hauled straight up the thirty foot drop by winding in, despatched, unhooked, and the next cast was prepared. In all the now well over forty years I have been fishing, I have never had a session like I had that day, and I will never do so again, as nowadays I would cease to fish after getting a few good ones.  The fish were there, a large shoal of hungry whiting and they were biting like crazy, I was hauling up two or three fish every cast, some really nice sized ones as well, but all were at least sizeable. Even in those days I was an optimist, and I had brought two large sacks with me and a polythene bag, which was actually designed to be used as a makeshift raincoat should the weather be really nasty.  I filled both sacks and the bag, and continued to fish like a lunatic, the pile of fish on the pier behind me continued to grow apace, but still I carried on, as if in a trance. Several people had now come on to the pier which had opened in the meantime, and stood watching, some started fishing, but I was oblivious to everything, and continued almost mechanically hauling up fish after fish. . Some time after mid-day I came to my senses, and viewed the carnage all around me.  I reeled in my gear and started gutting and filleting fish, several people asked if they might have a fish, and I told them to help themselves.  For several hours I filleted fish like a madman, emptying the sacks and the bag again on to the boards, and filleting those too,and even after filleting everything, and throwing all the guts and even the heads away as well, something I would not usually have done, as they made excellent soup, I still had two large sacks full of solid fish fillets, which I could only just lift. It took me almost seven hours to get home, and was well after dark  long before I got there. Carrying one sack a few hundred yards along the beach, dumping it, … read more »

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Question:

Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy

vendettas. "supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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"supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

  Go get him Timbo "release the hounds"

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas. "supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

I agree with you Tim….if he wants service…I think he ought to send us some friggin’ money. TANSTAAFL  ..uhhh…US dollars please. –Wataugan Walt

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Damn, there are sharks in this stream! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas. "supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…" I agree with you Tim….if he wants service…I think he ought to send us some friggin’ money. TANSTAAFL  ..uhhh…US dollars please. –Wataugan Walt

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Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

        oh, golly, don, thanks for putting us in our place.  let’s see:  do you think sage rods are better than orvis?  here’s the hot tip on the yellowstone this week:  tie on (with an improved clinch, of course) a adams in the morning, a royal wulff in the mid-day, and an elk hair caddis near dark.  btw, do you think 2mm waders are sufficient for late june on the au sable?  hey, have you got a load of the new 50 pocket vest from l.l. bean?  it holds all 350 patterns of bwo’s i’ve identified after a long weekend in the loving arms of a.k. best.  ad infinitum.  ad nauseum.  nighty night.         a. wayne harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Don writes: Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas. Welcome to ROFF, Don! Like it or not, that’s the way this newsgroup goes. You can sort through for the useful info, as it will be there. You are, however, asking for trouble with posts like this,as the rabid dogs will search you out. Tim Patterson may even post a web page about you, but I think his server is pretty well Ginked up….                                         Tom Littleton

______  ha!  that’s funny, Tim.  In fact,you’re not far off from our famous motto and in Tim Patterson’s case,  "Gink Keeps It Up" includes him.  Isn’t what your saying is, "Without me, Tim Patterson couldn’t make it?" hum?  You may have a point? I have a problem though, Tim.  I keep releasing him but he keeps coming back.  Possibly we should start a new group?  rec.outdoors.fishing.boomerang.suckers.tim (?) mercy.

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Yea, good idea!  Let’s start!!  You go first!! Uh.. hello?  You there Don? Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

-Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

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Ya I’m here but after many years of intermittent fly fishing on west coast and back east in Ontario and Quebec, I modestly don’t feel I have the expertese to significantly contribute  to the body of knowledge in the literature and what is commonly known. That being the case, I peruse this UG occasionally to see if anything of note has been said. I am well tackled (no pun intended) but am a very unaccomplished tyer. I am no purist and do not practice C & R, primarily because my friends and I have been doing our own stocking for many years in lakes which do not permit natural reproduction of either specs or rb. Rarely do I meet an opportunity to use dries and we normally use nymphs and streamers, of which we have developed a few local patterns. I have my own ideas which I do not inflict on others, except I cast right, real left and preach this to anybody who will listen. And I’ve been using George’s stuff for many years, which I suppose will bring more brick-bats….. Unfortunately, I don’t get out as much as I would like but hope springs eternal amd I have asperations of hooking one of the Ottawa River browns which are coming along nicely, so I am told. For those of you who do get out and into the back country, who love maps etc. and are interested in GPS as an aid to your travels, check out this URL where most of my time on line goes:           http://www.synapse.net/~dbartlett/gpsutm.htm This is NOT a commercial site. Don Bartlett Yea, good idea!  Let’s start!!  You go first!! Uh.. hello?  You there Don?

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Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

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Don writes: Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

Welcome to ROFF, Don! Like it or not, that’s the way this newsgroup goes. You can sort through for the useful info, as it will be there. You are, however, asking for trouble with posts like this,as the rabid dogs will search you out. Tim Patterson may even post a web page about you, but I think his server is pretty well Ginked up….                                         Tom Littleton

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Question:

Hi Fisherfolks! One of my friends is going to a family reunion near Charma, New Mexico. He says the Brazos River is near there. He would like to try fly-fishing again while he is there. He used to flyfish as a kid, but let it go as an adult, and would like to find a guide who can help him get reacquainted (sp?) with it. Can anyone help with this? Please E-mail me your response. Thanks for the help! Steve Rosenblum Ann Arbor, MI

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Hi Fisherfolks! One of my friends is going to a family reunion near Charma, New Mexico. He says the Brazos River is near there. He would like to try fly-fishing again while he is there. He used to flyfish as a kid, but let it go as an adult, and would like to find a guide who can help him get reacquainted (sp?) with it. Can anyone help with this? Please E-mail me your response. Thanks for the help! Steve Rosenblum Ann Arbor, MI

Hi Steve I recently fished there and the fishing was good. I didn’t use a guide but I’m sure you can find a guide by clicking on my web page and then on the fishing reports. There is a whole section on New Mexico. From there it’s just a matter of checking the different report and the organizations who supply them. Good luck & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Catalog,Tips & Tricks, Fishing Reports, & NeverSink at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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Hi Fisherfolks! One of my friends is going to a family reunion near Charma, New Mexico. He says the Brazos River is near there. He would like to try fly-fishing again while he is there. He used to flyfish as a kid, but let it go as an adult, and would like to find a guide who can help him get reacquainted (sp?) with it. Can anyone help with this? Please E-mail me your response. Thanks for the help! Steve Rosenblum Ann Arbor, MI

I don’t know about the Brazos but the Chama, the Rio Grande, the Cimmaron and other N New Mexico streams and rivers offer great fishing.  Your friend might contact Van Beacham at Los Rios Angler in Taos (not too far from Chama by western standards).  LRA phone number is (505)758-2798.  Los Pinos in Albaquerque (505) 884-7501 or High Desert Angler in Sanat Fe (505) 98 TROUT –don’t you hate look for those letters?– might be able to suggest or provide guides.  The book Flyfishing in Northern New Mexico is great if you friend doesn’t really need a guide. John

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Question:

Anyone able to help with my problem?  Lately I have been finding it difficult to get my leaders to lay down reasonably straight no matter what size or kind of fly I am fishing.  At times I am able to accomplish this by timing my cast (by accident of course) so that the leader hits the water just as it unrolls from the forward cast.  This technique plays havoc with a soft presentation though! Jay Kidwell

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Anyone able to help with my problem?  Lately I have been finding it difficult to get my leaders to lay down reasonably straight no matter what size or kind of fly I am fishing.  At times I am able to accomplish this by timing my cast (by accident of course) so that the leader hits the water just as it unrolls from the forward cast.  This technique plays havoc with a soft presentation though! Jay Kidwell

How does the leader land on the water ? What kind of leader are you using ? Does the line lay straight ? What kind of line do you use ? I have personally found knotted leaders to be better than tapered ones and braided leaders to be better than knotted ones as far as presentation goes. Also, depending on the stream, if you are fishing with dries sometimes you rally do not want a straight leader.   I read somewhere (in one of the famous books, of course I do not remember which) a technique that helps reducing significantly the drag problems that are very common when fishing spring creeks where the current differential on the surface can vary significantly thus making a perfect dead drift presentation rather hard, even when using the S cast. The author suggested to aim at the points of the trees on the opposite bank  and not at your level as one usually does.  As a result, the line will straighten in the air, then fall in the water and the leader will come down in loose coils.   Consequently the resulting drift is much longer than usual.  I have tried the technique in several occasions with very good results. Maybe you are aiming too high when you finish your cast. Or, maybe you finish your cast too soon, I find that when I am tired or lazy I tend not to perform the forward cast with too small of a movement, and as a result the leader does not straighten well.. Tight lines -Vittorio

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Could be a number of things.  Begin with a new soft leader and then add plenty of tippet material and stretch that leader out.  Pause a touch longer on your back cast and they cast to a point a little higher than your normal cast.  Your line and leader should lay out parallel to the water and then gently float down.  If not, you either have an unballanced outfit our your technique may be slightly off.  In either case, have another experienced fly fisher help you out.  Try other outfits and that should tell you if it is you or your outfit. Don’t use your nymphing outfit to expect to lay a delicat #28 within a couple of inches of where you want it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Anyone able to help with my problem?  Lately I have been finding it difficult to get my leaders to lay down reasonably straight no matter what size or kind of fly I am fishing.  At times I am able to accomplish this by timing my cast (by accident of course) so that the leader hits the water just as it unrolls from the forward cast.  This technique plays havoc with a soft presentation though! Jay Kidwell

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Have you switched brands lately?                                           …Steven

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Anyone able to help with my problem?  Lately I have been finding it difficult to get my leaders to lay down reasonably straight no matter what size or kind of fly I am fishing.  At times I am able to accomplish this by timing my cast (by accident of course) so that the leader hits the water just as it unrolls from the forward cast.  This technique plays havoc with a soft presentation though! Jay Kidwell

Hi Jay There are a lot of reasons your leader may not be straightening out but the most common is feeding slack line into the cast at the wrong time. Many casters develop a tendency to feed extra line just as they start the forward cast there by killing the transfer of energy from the rod to the line. This could be your problem. A couple of solutions: visit your local fly shop for a lesson or contact the Federation of Fly Fishers at 406-585-7592 and get the info on a club near you. Join the club and get help from a new friend. Good luck. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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Anyone able to help with my problem?  Lately I have been finding it difficult to get my leaders to lay down reasonably straight no matter what size or kind of fly I am fishing.  At times I am able to accomplish this by timing my cast (by accident of course) so that the leader hits the water just as it unrolls from the forward cast.  This technique plays havoc with a soft presentation though! Jay Kidwell

Try stopping your rod on your forward cast,this will exert enough power for your tip to turn your line over. Practice false casting with a piece of yarn in lieu of a fly on your tippet and make an effort to stop your rod on the forward cast at about 10 o’clock-this will help. Fred

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Several people have entered into a purposeful discussion of the best way to use two flies……   related comment, but not on topic exactly…. I drove a very good friend of mine to the hospital with the second hook  ( the one not in the fish) deeeeeeeppppply embedded in his finger.    This hook was driven into his finger when the 10 pound steelhead he reach for… suddenly thrashed about.   Months later, infection etc… he still has scars…. I fish with only one fly now…. Alan E. Hoover

Yep, had that happen also Alan.  I was posing with a nice rainbow for a photo when the dropper with PT nymph flicked onto my index finger of my dominate hand.  When the shutter clacked the fish went flying and I got the hook deep. It took me a couple of hours to cut that thing out with the fileting knife during lunch break.  It sure was hard casting with that thing in there the remainder of the morning. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley         2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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Several people have entered into a purposeful discussion of the best way to use two flies……   related comment, but not on topic exactly…. I drove a very good friend of mine to the hospital with the second hook  ( the one not in the fish) deeeeeeeppppply embedded in his finger.    This hook was driven into his finger when the 10 pound steelhead he reach for… suddenly thrashed about.   Months later, infection etc… he still has scars…. I fish with only one fly now…. Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*

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It took me a couple of hours to cut that thing out with the fileting k Damn, Burton.  Fishing must have been slow if you took a couple of hours for lunch break!  :^) I saw a flyfishing show over the weekend that featured atlantic salmon fishing in Iceland.  They have an interesting regulation there.  The stream must be "rested" from 11:00am until 4:00pm (that means no fishing of any kind) every day.  Of course, at that latitude daylight goes until 10:00pm so there is plenty of time.

That’s an intresting concept.  It might be worth trying on some of our streams in the summer.  Different hours though. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley           2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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It took me a couple of hours to cut that thing out with the fileting knife during lunch break.  It sure was hard casting with that thing in there the remainder of the morning. Damn, Burton.  Fishing must have been slow if you took a couple of hours for lunch break!  :^) Tight Lines, preferably attached to ‘fish’, Charley

Nah, actually it was a good morning – pretty long.  It was just a long slow process cautiously getting down to the barb.  I’m no surgeon and had to wing it.  My fishing partner was taking a nap.  When I got ready to attempt pulling it out, I left the camper so I wouldn’t wake him if I yelled.  I grabbed it with tweezers and it popped right out.  That was the only one I forgot to pinch the barb on – talk about fate and retribution. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley           2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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Several people have entered into a purposeful discussion of the best way to use two flies……   related comment, but not on topic exactly….

Fishing a team of 2 or 3 flies is common in Ireland and Scotland especially where Seatrout and Salmon are expected on the same water. I invariably fish a double or triple hooked Salmon pattern on the tail with two droppers for Seatrout. If it is blowing a full gale and I start to tangle I might cut one dropper off. I have one friend who regularly fishes a team of 4 flies but he is so expert that he has the nickname of "Tightlines" I drove a very good friend of mine to the hospital with the second hook  ( the one not in the fish) deeeeeeeppppply embedded in his finger.    This hook was driven into his finger It took me a couple of hours to cut that thing out with the fileting knife during lunch break.

This hooking yourself business has cropped up before but I’ll say it again anyway. You do not have to go to the surgery or take a knife to yourself. Put your thumb very firmly on the eye end of the hook. Tie a bit of stout lanyard around the bend of the hook and give a firm pull away from the direction of the hook’s entry. You have to be bold. It works. There’s a bit of blood and it hurts, but you will be fishing again in 5 minutes. Mind you I’ve never tried it with a hook in the eye or eyelid. Has anyone ? — Ian McCowen – Polwarth Manse, Greenlaw, Berwickshire TD10 6YR SCOTLAND (fine old books on Shooting, Fishing, Natural History bought & sold)

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It took me a couple of hours to cut that thing out with the fileting knife during lunch break.  It sure was hard casting with that thing in there the remainder of the morning.

Damn, Burton.  Fishing must have been slow if you took a couple of hours for lunch break!  :^) Tight Lines, preferably attached to ‘fish’, Charley

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Here in Taupo we regularly use two nymphs on the bigger rivers. The first nymph is very heavy, we are not allowed to add lead to the line, and the second nymph, lighter. The second nymph is invariably tied off to the bend of the first hook, about 12 to 18 inches behind. If casting where it is possible, the best technique is to allow the nymphs to hit the water on the back cast, this ‘water haul’ helps to straighten out the line and fully load the rod. As several others have noted, try and cast an open loop, and also try and change the ‘plane’ at which the rod moves from the forward to back cast. Even so it is all pretty ugly to purist casters, but it gets the job done. We also tend to use shooting heads or weight forward tapers that have a short forward section. Despite all the above this type of casting is called here, chuck and duck, definitely a hard hat area. — Tony Bishop Fish with Bish Taupo New Zealand – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I : cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle : up all the time.  I cast short, not much longer than the lenght of the : leader and the leader that the fly is on (the shorter one) tends to wrap : around the leading one.  I tried using a thicker line, a realy short one : too; did not really help much.  I tried to tie the second leader to the : base of the hook, I tried the eye of the hook; if I use thin tippet and : I kept loosing flies when setting the hook(poor fish..) Is there a knot : I could use that will prevent that?  Or what should I do?  Thanx for any : advice, Arek.

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Burton,         your ability to control the situation ends when a fish takes         one of the flies.  That’s when the worst tangles happen. Yeah, especially when a big fish is making a run and that second fly gets it’s barb caught on a rock.  Argh…!

        Etched forever in my memory is such an experience with a large         rainbow on the Madison River.  I was fishing a salmon fly with         an X-Caddis on a dropper.  The fish took the caddis (as usual),         and just when things were approaching the point where I was         thinking about a net, the fish made a pass by the boat and the         salmon fly got caught on the anchor line.  The salmon fly came         to an abrupt halt.  The fish, caddis fly and dropper didn’t.         I just stared at the errant salmon fly for some time, trying         to fully absorb the reality of the situation.  The image is         still vivid.         In fishing, as with everything else, there is no such thing as         a free lunch.  Fishing two flies may well double, or at least         increase the probability of hooking a fish, but there is a         price to be paid.  That being said, I still do it on a regular         basis.                                         Tom Hewlett-Packard Laboratories                     Phone: (970) 229-3531 External Research Program                          FAX: (970) 229-6198 3404 East Harmony Road Fort Collins, CO 80525-9599

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I : cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle : up all the time.  I cast short, not much longer than the lenght of the : leader and the leader that the fly is on (the shorter one) tends to wrap : around the leading one.  I tried using a thicker line, a realy short one : too; did not really help much.  I tried to tie the second leader to the : base of the hook, I tried the eye of the hook; if I use thin tippet and : I kept loosing flies when setting the hook(poor fish..) Is there a knot : I could use that will prevent that?  Or what should I do?  Thanx for any : advice, Arek. : Arek: :    The only thing I could add to the previous post is that you may : need to pay more attention to your casting. Open that casting loop a : bit so that you’re not throwing a very tight loop and you sure need to : make sure that the back cast is fully extended before starting the : forward cast so that east doesn’t meet west. I generally will use the : same diameter tippet for the point fly as I’m using for the top one. : Jim There is some debate whether to put the heavy fly at the end or the lighter fly.  My experience is that if you cast a tighter loop, put the small fly on the end.  If you can cast a wider loop, put the heavy fly at the end. Pete

Use a lob cast or a circle cast. Very few tangles using two flies with these casts. –tony

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I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle up all the time. –I tie a Bimini twist, snip the loop at lengths desire for top and

dropper.  I works really well. dj

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2 nymphs…deadly, but beware. Your chances of foul hooking the fish as he rejects the first fly is hugely increased.  Your chances of mortally wounding the fish as the trailer wraps in its gills is also greatly increased.   Not that you should worry…just truth.  One whitefish this weekend had a nice 6cm gash in its belly from being foul hooked on my dropper #20 coachman, guts visible.  kilt it. smoked it. et it. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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: I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I : cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle : up all the time.  I cast short, not much longer than the lenght of the : leader and the leader that the fly is on (the shorter one) tends to wrap : around the leading one.  I tried using a thicker line, a realy short one : too; did not really help much.  I tried to tie the second leader to the : base of the hook, I tried the eye of the hook; if I use thin tippet and : I kept loosing flies when setting the hook(poor fish..) Is there a knot : I could use that will prevent that?  Or what should I do?  Thanx for any : advice, Arek. : Arek: :    The only thing I could add to the previous post is that you may : need to pay more attention to your casting. Open that casting loop a : bit so that you’re not throwing a very tight loop and you sure need to : make sure that the back cast is fully extended before starting the : forward cast so that east doesn’t meet west. I generally will use the : same diameter tippet for the point fly as I’m using for the top one. : Jim There is some debate whether to put the heavy fly at the end or the lighter fly.  My experience is that if you cast a tighter loop, put the small fly on the end.  If you can cast a wider loop, put the heavy fly at the end. Pete

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I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle up all the time.  I cast short, not much longer than the lenght of the leader and the leader that the fly is on (the shorter one) tends to wrap around the leading one.  I tried using a thicker line, a realy short one too; did not really help much.  I tried to tie the second leader to the base of the hook, I tried the eye of the hook; if I use thin tippet and I kept loosing flies when setting the hook(poor fish..) Is there a knot I could use that will prevent that?  Or what should I do?  Thanx for any advice, Arek.

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I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle up all the time.  I cast short, not much longer than the lenght of the leader and the leader that the fly is on (the shorter one) tends to wrap around the leading one.  I tried using a thicker line, a realy short one too; did not really help much.  I tried to tie the second leader to the base of the hook, I tried the eye of the hook; if I use thin tippet and I kept loosing flies when setting the hook(poor fish..) Is there a knot I could use that will prevent that?  Or what should I do?  Thanx for any

I fish this way most of the time.  The "dropper" leader is usually lighter than my main leader because the fly is always smaller.  I use no special knot, but have seen a blood knot reccomended, as well as the Surgeon’s knot. The length of the dropper leader should be around 4 inches (18 inches up the leader from the "point fly"), much longer than this and it twist around the main leader, too short and it takes action out of the dropper fly.  I think the key is not to have a weighted fly on the dropper.  Just a small nymph, wet or emerger. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley           2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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Arek, You can you use what ever size tippet you prefer and secure it to the gape of the first hook with a regular old improved clinch Knot.  Or you can place a loop somwhere in your leader and attach the two leaders loop to leader loop…no knot. They will tangle once in awhile…It wouldn’t be fly fishing if you didn’t get a tangle or two now and then.  One the leader material starts to become twisted…replace it right away….will prevent snarls. Good luck.  Email me with any questions.Works for me…I am sure there are probably other methods…we do not usually false cast these set-ups much… Regards, James Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service Vermont Fly Fishing, Hunting, River and Woodland Outings http://pobox.com/~uncle

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I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle up all the time.  I cast short, not much longer than the lenght of the leader and the leader that the fly is on (the shorter one) tends to wrap around the leading one.  I tried using a thicker line, a realy short one too; did not really help much.  I tried to tie the second leader to the base of the hook, I tried the eye of the hook; if I use thin tippet and I kept loosing flies when setting the hook(poor fish..) Is there a knot I could use that will prevent that?  Or what should I do?  Thanx for any advice, Arek.

Hi Arek I’ve always used and "in-line dropper system." Start by tying on your first fly, then tie an 18" or so piece of tippet to the bend of the first hook. Tie your second fly on the second piece of tippet. I use a Unit Knot or Clinch Knot (improved). I have fished up to three flies in this manner but two are easier to cast. Also you can fish a dry fly as your first fly with a nymph under it using the dry as your strike indicator. Or for old folks like me whose eyes are not as good as they used to be use a larger dry fly with a real small dry fly as the dropper. The bigger dry will give you a fairly good idea where the small fly is located. Good Tying & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products http://www.btsflyfishing.com Tiemco quality hooks, under $6.00 pkg/50

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I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle up all the time.  I cast short, not much longer than the lenght of the leader and the leader that the fly is on (the shorter one) tends to wrap around the leading one.  I tried using a thicker line, a realy short one too; did not really help much.  I tried to tie the second leader to the base of the hook, I tried the eye of the hook; if I use thin tippet and I kept loosing flies when setting the hook(poor fish..) Is there a knot I could use that will prevent that?  Or what should I do?  Thanx for any advice, Arek.

Hello Arek, I have experienced the same problems as you describe. The best (to date) solution for me is to tie the first nymph to the end of the tippet and then attach a second piece of tippet to the bend of the first nymph with an improved cinch knot. I use 18 to 24 inches of tippet and tie on the second nymph. Using heavy nymphs requires a special technique – the chuck and duck. You might want to experiment on the placement of the heavier nymph– first or second fly. I also use the technique with the first fly being a dry fly and the second either a small nymph, soft hackle, or in some cases, another too small-to-see dry fly. The first fly becomes a fishing strike indicator. Good luck and let us know how your experimenting works out. Vic’s Fly-By-Night http://www.navicom.com

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Arek writes, in part: <<I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle up all the time…… In Maine, it is illegal to use split shot with a fly.  So, I first tie on a bead head (or other weighted nymph) and tie my "intended lure" onto the bead head’s hook bend with about two feet of tippet of the *same* size.  I have no problems with the flies getting tangled — they are for all intents and purposes a single strand.  With this method, I can experiment with the size of the bead head to get deeper or shallower depending on the type water I am fishing.  Another way to do it, and it is easier, is to tie on about 2-3 feet of tippet using a double surgeon’s knot or barrell knot and leave a foot or less of the tag end intact — i.e., do not cut the tag end short.  This works just as well as the first method and is easier to tie.  I sometimes use a large dry fly (#12 Elk Hair Caddis tied with CDC feathers) tied to the leader and about 2 feet of tippet (same size!) tied to it’s hook bend, with an appropriate caddis nymph tied on as the dropper.  The dry fly then acts as a strike indicator —  I once caught a small brookie on the dry fly and while landing it, a larger brookie took the Rhyacophila nymph!  I lost the larger trout, but managed to land the little fella — fun and games when you have two on at once!! Sorry for the rambling reply, but I hope it helps. Good drifts, Paul LaCourse  

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I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle up all the time.  I cast short, not much longer than the lenght of the leader and the leader that the fly is on (the shorter one) tends to wrap around the leading one.  I tried using a thicker line, a realy short one too; did not really help much.  I tried to tie the second leader to the base of the hook, I tried the eye of the hook; if I use thin tippet and I kept loosing flies when setting the hook(poor fish..) Is there a knot I could use that will prevent that?  Or what should I do?  Thanx for any advice, Arek.

Arek:    The only thing I could add to the previous post is that you may need to pay more attention to your casting. Open that casting loop a bit so that you’re not throwing a very tight loop and you sure need to make sure that the back cast is fully extended before starting the forward cast so that east doesn’t meet west. I generally will use the same diameter tippet for the point fly as I’m using for the top one. Jim

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Arek, I have tried fishing two flies, actually nymphs on on one line and I cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle up all the time.         your ability to control the situation ends when a fish takes         one of the flies.  That’s when the worst tangles happen.

Yeah, especially when a big fish is making a run and that second fly gets it’s barb caught on a rock.  Argh…! -Burton — L. Burton Hawley         2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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Burton,         your ability to control the situation ends when a fish takes         one of the flies.  That’s when the worst tangles happen. Yeah, especially when a big fish is making a run and that second fly gets it’s barb caught on a rock.  Argh…!         The salmon fly came         to an abrupt halt.  The fish, caddis fly and dropper didn’t.         I just stared at the errant salmon fly for some time, trying         to fully absorb the reality of the situation.  The image is         still vivid.

That’s why I added the Argh!  I’ve had this happen a couple of times, once with a nice steelhead on.  Image my embarrasment when I finally realized I was fighting a rock.  You are right the image is very vivid. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley           2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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Arek, I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle up all the time.

        What I do is tie the larger of the two flies to the end of the         tippet, then tie a second tippet to the eye of the first fly.         The second tippet is usually about 18" long, and often of a         smaller diameter than the first tippet.  The second fly is         tied to the end of the second tippet.  This method does not         seem to have a significant effect on drift or hooking.         Tangles are almost impossible to avoid if a dropper is used.         Most casting tangles can be avoided with a bit of care, but         your ability to control the situation ends when a fish takes         one of the flies.  That’s when the worst tangles happen.                                         Tom Hewlett-Packard Laboratories                     Phone: (970) 229-3531 External Research Program                          FAX: (970) 229-6198 3404 East Harmony Road Fort Collins, CO 80525-9599

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Arek, I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle up all the time.         What I do is tie the larger of the two flies to the end of the         tippet, then tie a second tippet to the eye of the first fly.         The second tippet is usually about 18" long, and often of a         smaller diameter than the first tippet.  The second fly is         tied to the end of the second tippet.  This method does not         seem to have a significant effect on drift or hooking.         Tangles are almost impossible to avoid if a dropper is used.         Most casting tangles can be avoided with a bit of care, but         your ability to control the situation ends when a fish takes         one of the flies.  That’s when the worst tangles happen.                                         Tom Hewlett-Packard Laboratories                     Phone: (970) 229-3531 External Research Program                          FAX: (970) 229-6198 3404 East Harmony Road Fort Collins, CO 80525-9599

What we used to do for two flies, was use an extension of the heavier leader material to tie the dropper to. Sometimes you needed two or three x-ratings differential to assure you wouldn’t tangle. This required good knots where the two mono sizes were joined. Jim N.

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I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle up all the time.

I use a surgeon’s knot to attach a tippet, and I tie one fly to each of the two tippet tails.  I leave one tail long (18") and one short (6"). I tie a big dry fly to the short tail and a nymph to the other.  Then I cast great big wide loops.  It works OK for me.  Yes the casting is a little laborious, but it is pretty exciting when you get two lunker dace  on at once! Keep your stick on the ice, Thos.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Arek, I have tried fishing two files, actually nymphs on on one line and I cannot find a right way, or right knot to use, so they will not tangle up all the time.         What I do is tie the larger of the two flies to the end of the         tippet, then tie a second tippet to the eye of the first fly.         The second tippet is usually about 18" long, and often of a         smaller diameter than the first tippet.  The second fly is         tied to the end of the second tippet.  This method does not         seem to have a significant effect on drift or hooking.         Tangles are almost impossible to avoid if a dropper is used.         Most casting tangles can be avoided with a bit of care, but         your ability to control the situation ends when a fish takes         one of the flies.  That’s when the worst tangles happen.

Hi Tom and Arek, I tie the second tippet to the bend of the first fly with an improved cinch knot and then tie the second fly on the end of the tippet. I usually use about 24" of tippet. I have experimented with using the heavier fly as the first or second fly. I think fewer tangles are encountered when the heavier fly is on the bottom. Again experiment with using the a dry fly as the first fly with a lightly weighted nymph, soft hackle, or a tiny dry fly as the second fly. The first fly serves as a fishing strike indicator. — Vic Brockett Vic’s Fly-By-Night http://www.navicom.com/~vic

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Forget it. Nothing but frustration in store for you. Get some float tubes instead.

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I would like some information regarding the usefullneess of this boat for two persons flyfishing. Specifically:

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There are a lot of public access sites on the Au Sable, including all 3 branches (Mainstream, North Branch, and South Branch).  In addition to state property, Trout Unlimited has two pieces of donated property in the "flies only" stretch.  One is north of Stephan’s Bridge, on the north side of the rive, called Guides’ Rest.  The other is further west and just north of Wakeley Bridge (also on the north side) near the Thunderbird Club.       The single best source of information on the AuSable comes from the river guide that is produced for the river by the Challenge Chapter of Trout Unlimited.  In addition to maps, it includes an emergence chart for the major fly hatches.       Your Email address indicates you are on the UM campus, as I am.  You can buy one of these guides at MacGregor’s (on Main Street), or I will be happy to let you look at mine if they’re out.  Mike Traugott     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Can anyone supply me with a few public access sites on the AuSable River System? Any proven patterns are more than welcome.

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there is a great book called "12 Classic Trout Streams of Michigan" at Border’s in Ann Arbor and at Macgregor’s, that lists access sites to the Au Sable and other streams that is really good information.

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I usually fish from Keystone Landing to Stephan Bridge on the main stream.   I haven’t had the chance to fish the south branch yet, but i think i will concentrate on it this summer.  Most of it is "match the hatch" water.  It is also a very picturesque stream, with sweeping cedars in the water providing excellent cover.  P.S. I don’t consider myself an expert on this stream, but I am just telling you what I know.  There is a "hatch hotline" you can call to see what the latest conditions are.  It’s updated everyday one the weather starts warming up, but currently it just contains general winter conditions.  the number is (517) 348-7108.  very helpful.

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