Question:

Larry I probably watched you fly over with the sling loaded. I was there in 67-68 most of my time was around Chu Chi, Long Benh, and Ben Wha. I left Siagon just two days before TET 1968 to come home. Got home and watched on TV places being blown up in Siagon that I had been at two days before. Jerry (also wondering where the time has gone) Springer

It just slipped by, one day at a time. Bob Reed www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com      (KIS Builders Site) KIS Cruiser in progress…Slow but steady progress…. "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!" (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)    

Response:

As he said lets start a war.:) I did not think that highway looked like the ones I remember in Vietnam in 1967 and 68. Jerry

Jerry:  Did the Vietnamese ever paint centerlines?  I think that highway is either in Mass. or in Wisconsin.  I forget…it’s been too long. See my post below.  I know I didn’t fool you older coots.  I was pulling the legs of the younger bucks. BWB

Response:

Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border.

Same shot is on your website…. http://www.angelfire.com/nv/rvpilot/Helicopter.html Caption reads: A shot going from Sprinfield Mass over to Albany New York in the summer of 1973. I’m flying in the left seat most of the time while everyone else sleeps although I’m not rated I’m having a blast. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Response:

As he said lets start a war.:) I did not think that highway looked like the ones I remember in Vietnam in 1967 and 68. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border. Same shot is on your website…. http://www.angelfire.com/nv/rvpilot/Helicopter.html Caption reads: A shot going from Sprinfield Mass over to Albany New York in the summer of 1973. I’m flying in the left seat most of the time while everyone else sleeps although I’m not rated I’m having a blast. I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was in Vietnam 67-68,  in the south most of the time, with 2 different Companies. We had 3 chinooks, use for recovery standby. Our job was sling loading back to base shot down aircraft and some maintenance aircraft. As a crewchief we have to do all maintance work on the CH-47 also. Slept many nights on them. When gunship pilots were in Vienam after 2 months, a lot of them though they were cowboys that could not be shot down. A lot of dumb pilot errors. One of our 330th Chinooks, after 1 1/2 years of flight time, had recovered many hundreds of aircraft. Some day I will have to show a picture of the right side of the Ch-47, with all the painted emblems of the recovered aircraft. One time at Vung Tau, we are working on the aft rotors. We are right next to the refueling depot. A huey is refueling, Another huey set beside him to refuel also. Ah,  the 2 hueys well, they connected rotor blades.What a mess. One of my crew was working on the aft rotor, Jumped to the ground, thats a long jump.. What a mess of chopper parts all over. Came back from service and got my Comm helicopter rating and flew 6 different types. Now days, the cost per hour, is to high to fly them any more. So now, build  fix wing aircraft full time. Now 55 years old. Where did the last 34 Larry Fitzgerald

Larry I probably watched you fly over with the sling loaded. I was there in 67-68 most of my time was around Chu Chi, Long Benh, and Ben Wha. I left Siagon just two days before TET 1968 to come home. Got home and watched on TV places being blown up in Siagon that I had been at two days before. Jerry (also wondering where the time has gone) Springer

Response:

Bob, If it was not for the AFCS it would be a bear to fly. We practice with the AFCS in the off position just to keep in touch with the bird. When the back wheels are on the ground the AFCS is only working 3/4 gain. Once that switch opens the AFCS goes to full gain and if you are not ready you will be along for a ride. We practice two wheel taxi too. It is a difficult balance of controls. A good person does it all without the brakes. There is a sweet spot with the nose in the air. That is the spot where the aircraft will stay put. Raise the nose a little higher than that and you go backward, a little lower and you move forward. This technique is used to back-up without hovering. I think one of the most scariest things is to hover or taxi backward.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All valid points but just a little trivia for ya, The CH-47 has a stick position indicator that must be at zero on the ground. Anything other than that will cause it to do weird things. (Snip) As Artie Johnson used to say, "Verrrrrrrry interesting!"  The AFCS in those ships must be incredible. Back in the 1960s, New York Airways operated the tandem rotor BV-107.  I was an excited twelve year-old, onboard one day when we touched down at JFK on the rear wheels, then taxied toward the Pan Am terminal with the front wheel still off the ground and the ship at a decidedly nose-up attitude.  Neato! My dad flew the predecessor of the CH-47, the Piasecki HUP-1 and HUP-2 way back in the day.  He related that they flew crappy in forward flight, as each rotor wanted to be "lead."  It wasn’t until Frankie’s team developed a workable helipilot for them that they got it to fly reasonably well. I landed in a buddies front yard last weekend in an R-44.  He’d told me to come by and do that anytime I was out screwing around. But, I never thought about his damn dogs.  As soon as I landed he came out and so did his two dogs.  Well, as dogs do, they went nuts watching this goofy machine sitting in their poop zone and ran at me.  They also ran at my tail for some reason. It is strange that dogs run for the tail rotor, and I’ve had that experience too and cannot explain it.  Luckily, the t/r of a 206 on high skids is, as you know, higher than most dogs, so they’d have to jump up to get it.  So far, *that* has thankfully not happened yet.  But with my luck…

Response:

All valid points but just a little trivia for ya, The CH-47 has a stick position indicator that must be at zero on the ground. Anything other than that will cause it to do weird things.

(Snip) As Artie Johnson used to say, "Verrrrrrrry interesting!"  The AFCS in those ships must be incredible. Back in the 1960s, New York Airways operated the tandem rotor BV-107.  I was an excited twelve year-old, onboard one day when we touched down at JFK on the rear wheels, then taxied toward the Pan Am terminal with the front wheel still off the ground and the ship at a decidedly nose-up attitude.  Neato!   My dad flew the predecessor of the CH-47, the Piasecki HUP-1 and HUP-2 way back in the day.  He related that they flew crappy in forward flight, as each rotor wanted to be "lead."  It wasn’t until Frankie’s team developed a workable helipilot for them that they got it to fly reasonably well. I landed in a buddies front yard last weekend in an R-44.  He’d told me to come by and do that anytime I was out screwing around. But, I never thought about his damn dogs.  As soon as I landed he came out and so did his two dogs.  Well, as dogs do, they went nuts watching this goofy machine sitting in their poop zone and ran at me.  They also ran at my tail for some reason.

It is strange that dogs run for the tail rotor, and I’ve had that experience too and cannot explain it.  Luckily, the t/r of a 206 on high skids is, as you know, higher than most dogs, so they’d have to jump up to get it.  So far, *that* has thankfully not happened yet.  But with my luck…

Response:

Was in Vietnam 67-68,  in the south most of the time, with 2 different Companies. We had 3 chinooks, use for recovery standby. Our job was sling loading back to base shot down aircraft and some maintenance aircraft. As a crewchief we have to do all maintance work on the CH-47 also. Slept many nights on them. When gunship pilots were in Vienam after 2 months, a lot of them though they were cowboys that could not be shot down. A lot of dumb pilot errors. One of our 330th Chinooks, after 1 1/2 years of flight time, had recovered many hundreds of aircraft. Some day I will have to show a picture of the right side of the Ch-47, with all the painted emblems of the recovered aircraft. One time at Vung Tau, we are working on the aft rotors. We are right next to the refueling depot. A huey is refueling, Another huey set beside him to refuel also. Ah,  the 2 hueys well, they connected rotor blades.What a mess. One of my crew was working on the aft rotor, Jumped to the ground, thats a long jump.. What a mess of chopper parts all over. Came back from service and got my Comm helicopter rating and flew 6 different types. Now days, the cost per hour, is to high to fly them any more. So now, build  fix wing aircraft full time. Now 55 years old. Where did the last 34 Larry Fitzgerald

Response:

The problem with crouching or ducking when approaching a helicopter is that people who are looking down at their sneakers are not looking where they’re going.  To paraphrase Martha Stewart, this is "a bad thing."   People talk about how a rotor can dip low.  And yes, approaching (or departing) any helicopter when the blades are not up to at least idle rpm is dangerous. Do not walk under undriven rotor blades!  Simple as that. Once the ship is idling, there is *usually* no danger to a man in a normal walk.  Although having said that, there are some small helicopters on low skid gear where the rotor is not all that high off the ground to begin with, in which the "idle" speed can be quite low (e.g. Enstrom).  Of the larger machines, only the Sikorsky S-76 poses a real danger (because of the low landing gear and forward tilt of the mast), but even it can be mitigated if the pilots simply pull back far enough on the cyclic to keep the tip path plane out of harm’s way. In all my years (20+) of flying helicopters, I’ve never had a gust of wind cause my idling rotor to do anything hinky.  Never.  Not saying it’ll won’t or couldn’t happen – just hasn’t.  (Start-up and shut-down?  Different story.) When I fly Bells, I keep the cyclic a little bit aft to hold the tip path plane up.  But I’ve seen pilots who are not very diligent about this.  Cyclics tend to fall forward if left unattended. A lot depends on which ship we’re talking about…  But if you’re a passenger who’s approaching a LongRanger on high-skids.  Can you depend on the pilot to make sure he keeps the tip path plane up and out of your way?  Sadly, no.  You better crouch a little just to be on the safe side.  Even I do, most of the time.  But please, "crouching" does not mean staring at the ground in a low-crawl.  Keep your head up so you can see, okay?  No baseball caps, and no fishing poles held over your shoulder. And no walking around the back of the ship.  That kind of thing makes our hearts stop…and could easily make yours stop too – permanently. "If you don’t know where you’re going,  Any road will take you there."                                          George Harrison

Response:

Slick = UH-1C or D model configured to haul bullits in and bodies out.  The bullets were "preventive medicine" called "dustoff"  now. LOH Light observation helicopter.  Forerunner of the 500 series helo’s. Worked in Hunter Killer teams usually, the loach would draw fire and the gunships would finish the fire.  One neat thing to note,  If a minigun was fixed on a hardpoint you had to have foreward momentum in order to fire, else the recoil would play havoc with the helicopter. BTW the LOH has evolved and is still in the inventory as the AH-6 and MH-6 of 160th SOAR fame. Instead of one minigun they now have two and FFAR boot. Still aimed the same way tho…….high tech grease pencil. and I was born in 71, am i yung enough fer ya ? all the best Sean "still dumpin shell casings out of the ruck and picken HE shrapnel outta the kevlar" Trost

Response:

    First Squadron, Ninth Cav         "Head Hunters"  First Cavalry Division (Airmoble)          1968 – 1969 I flew as a LOH crewchief for about 9 months. Hueys the rest of the year. Shot down twice. Crashed twice due to stupid pilot stunts. Yeah, the first time I was shot at, it was kind of "exhilerating".  The next 10 months weren’t so much fun. My "official" body count was 83, but I think 20 or 25 would be closer to reality.  It’s a Viet Nam thing. You wouldn’t understand… SP5 Richard Lamb       DFC

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border. I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Bill, I seem to remember a Shorts Skyvan poping into our base (Phu Loi 69-70) every once in a while. Along with the usual single engine stuff. Bill Higdon

Response:

Bob, All valid points but just a little trivia for ya, The CH-47 has a stick position indicator that must be at zero on the ground. Anything other than that will cause it to do weird things. For example; A little forward cyclic while on the ground the computers will slowly drive the rotors forward until the back wheels come off the ground and the squat switch opens. Then the forward tilt will be so fast that you will not be able to react to it and the aircraft will flip on its back. A little too much aft on the ground; if the breaks are set it will raise the nose until the aft rotor strikes the ground. If the breaks are not set it will start rolling backward.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The problem with crouching or ducking when approaching a helicopter is that people who are looking down at their sneakers are not looking where they’re going.  To paraphrase Martha Stewart, this is "a bad thing." People talk about how a rotor can dip low.  And yes, approaching (or departing) any helicopter when the blades are not up to at least idle rpm is dangerous. Do not walk under undriven rotor blades!  Simple as that. Once the ship is idling, there is *usually* no danger to a man in a normal walk.  Although having said that, there are some small helicopters on low skid gear where the rotor is not all that high off the ground to begin with, in which the "idle" speed can be quite low (e.g. Enstrom).  Of the larger machines, only the Sikorsky S-76 poses a real danger (because of the low landing gear and forward tilt of the mast), but even it can be mitigated if the pilots simply pull back far enough on the cyclic to keep the tip path plane out of harm’s way. In all my years (20+) of flying helicopters, I’ve never had a gust of wind cause my idling rotor to do anything hinky.  Never.  Not saying it’ll won’t or couldn’t happen – just hasn’t.  (Start-up and shut-down?  Different story.) When I fly Bells, I keep the cyclic a little bit aft to hold the tip path plane up.  But I’ve seen pilots who are not very diligent about this.  Cyclics tend to fall forward if left unattended. A lot depends on which ship we’re talking about…  But if you’re a passenger who’s approaching a LongRanger on high-skids.  Can you depend on the pilot to make sure he keeps the tip path plane up and out of your way?  Sadly, no. You better crouch a little just to be on the safe side.  Even I do, most of the time.  But please, "crouching" does not mean staring at the ground in a low-crawl.  Keep your head up so you can see, okay?  No baseball caps, and no fishing poles held over your shoulder. And no walking around the back of the ship.  That kind of thing makes our hearts stop…and could easily make yours stop too – permanently. "If you don’t know where you’re going,  Any road will take you there."                                          George Harrison

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The rotor of a Huey is some 11 feet up. It can dip to six, and in a gust, lower than that. 1000 hours combat assault time and I still duck. You flew Hueys? Lemme guess…. WO-1 out of Ft. Rucker, then Air Cav in country. Who with? I remember at Fritsche Field being out on the main ramp sometimes when the Cav detachment would come in. I just loved that unique Huey thump-thump-thump in chorus. Everyone transitioned to hover at about 3 feet, then taxied single-file to the Cav ramp. Always reminded me of circus elephants walking head-to-tail behind each other. David Ah, yes, the days of the Air Cav!!!!  I’m sure this dude was a WO-1 out of Rucker….hell, who wasn’t in them thar days?  You spent your time there before you went out and killed gooks in gun ships or flew dust off in slicks. (any of you younger punks know what a slick is/was?  How about a loach? LOH?)

The kids may not but I remember. At Ft. Ord we’d go over to the Navy Post Graduate School (NPG) O Club since the Navy had the good sense in WWII to buy (appropriate?) the Del Monte Hotel and adjoining grounds. In the bar different units would paint their logos on the 3′x3′ ceiling tiles. The one right above my barstool was an OH-6 Loach hovering under a spreading oak. The inscription read, "Army Loaches do it under the trees!" And Pasture Dave…the UH-1 Huey didn’t go thump-thump-thump….it went WOP-WOP-WOP when you dropped collective pitch for the descent.

Spelling how a sound sounds is not the easiest thing in the world to do, but thump-thump-thump sounds a lot more like a Huey than does Wop-Wop-Wop. I’ll split the difference with you… we’ll call it Whump-Whump-Whump. David

Response:

and I was born in 71, am i yung enough fer ya ? all the best Sean "still dumpin shell casings out of the ruck and picken HE shrapnel outta the kevlar" Trost

At-a-boy Sean!  Nice commentary.  I should have mentioned that I also love the smell of High Explosive (HE) in the mornings. Ahhhh for them good ole days when we blew up the jungle just for kicks. BWB

Response:

A lot depends on which ship we’re talking about…  But if you’re a passenger who’s approaching a LongRanger on high-skids.  Can you depend on the pilot to make sure he keeps the tip path plane up and out of your way?  Sadly, no.  You better crouch a little just to be on the safe side.  Even I do, most of the time.  But please, "crouching" does not mean staring at the ground in a low-crawl.  Keep your head up so you can see, okay?  No baseball caps, and no fishing poles held over your shoulder.

Nice post Bob.  I tell all my pax to maintain eye contact with me from the front as they approach the helicopter and stop outside of the rotor tip radius until I wave them in.  Then walk toward me always maintaining eye contact until you are right up to the cockpit.  Same thing upon disembarking.  You can’t maintain eye contact, but simply walk STRAIGHT FORWARD from the cockpit until you clear the rotors and crouch over a bit while you do. And no walking around the back of the ship.  That kind of thing makes our hearts stop…and could easily make yours stop too – permanently.

I landed in a buddies front yard last weekend in an R-44.  He’d told me to come by and do that anytime I was out screwing around. But, I never thought about his damn dogs.  As soon as I landed he came out and so did his two dogs.  Well, as dogs do, they went nuts watching this goofy machine sitting in their poop zone and ran at me.  They also ran at my tail for some reason.  I think they were drawn to the tailrotor spinning and thought it was a toy to play with.  Luckily I was still spooled up to 104% when they did.  I pulled pitch and lifted off.  From a 5 foot hover I motioned with the back of my hand at the dogs and he got the message, then put them in the house so I could land. I worry more about the tail rotor than anything since I can’t see it. Even landing here at the house there are kids on dirt bikes that drive up all the time while I’m winding down.  I’ve decided to put a fence around the pad just to protect them.  And, as you said above.  If you want to stop the heart of any helicopter pilot, just walk around toward the back of the ship.  I got a belt of lightening through my spine just reading your sentence and thinking about it. BWB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"If you don’t know where you’re going, Any road will take you there."                                         George Harrison

Response:

Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border. I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Response:

Just like many here have stated. The rotorhead my be way up there but the tip-path-plan can get REALLY low. I fly the CH-47D Chinook. The rotorhead is up there some 25 feet but the tip-path-plan of the front rotor can easily dip to 4 feet or less. The AH-64 and AH-1 is way up there to but it is not uncommon in a radical control movement to take out the gunner in the front seat. When you are around a helicopter with all its moving pieces you should do two thing. Err on the safe side ALWAYS. Second just as important as the first, FOLLOW DIRECTIONS. If it is a helicopter with crewchiefs make sure they see you and you watch them ALWAYS. If it just a pilot, make absolutely sure he sees you before you come under the rotors.

Response:

yea… that’s who we need to get over hear from rec.aviation.rotorcraft. There was a good thread awhile back on this one and an "OSHA"/collegiate based attorney put up an entertaining battle over theoretical law and 2nd grade common sense.  That was a fun one!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chris Woodhouse wrote … I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck? May not need to duck, but the rotors aren’t all that much higher. Back in September a Latin American pop star exited a copter & waved to his waiting fans — promptly losing several fingers to the rotors. Google for details.

Response:

You flew Hueys? Lemme guess…. WO-1 out of Ft. Rucker, then Air Cav in country. Who with? I remember at Fritsche Field being out on the main ramp sometimes when the Cav detachment would come in. I just loved that unique Huey thump-thump-thump in chorus. Everyone transitioned to hover at about 3 feet, then taxied single-file to the Cav ramp. Always reminded me of circus elephants walking head-to-tail behind each other. David

Ah, yes, the days of the Air Cav!!!!  I’m sure this dude was a WO-1 out of Rucker….hell, who wasn’t in them thar days?  You spent your time there before you went out and killed gooks in gun ships or flew dust off in slicks. (any of you younger punks know what a slick is/was?  How about a loach? LOH?) And Pasture Dave…the UH-1 Huey didn’t go thump-thump-thump….it went WOP-WOP-WOP when you dropped collective pitch for the descent. I loved the Hueys.  Hell, I’ve got about 2000 hours logged just sleeping on the cot in the back. You speak about the transition from ETL (effective translational lift) into a hover.  What a roar that was in a UH-1.  The whole thing shook like the world was coming to an end.  Those days were a ball…taking enemy fire as you let down between the trees (chopping branches off) as your gunner was dusting the gooks with 50 cal rounds….the smell of napalm and death everywhere…it was exhilerating.   I was in Fire-3 (a HU-1H) one day when we took three bullets through the tail cone and the drive shaft to the tail rotor was severed.  It was a ball, we flew back to base at Pleiku at treetop level and about 120 knots then did a run on landing at about 60 knots into a rice paddy in water about 6 feet deep.  We didn’t give a shit.  We were half drunk and it was government equipment anyway…trashed the fucking  Huey.  That night back in my hooch we drank distilled pineapple juice that was about 100 proof and told lies about the day. I remember some guys had smuggled some whores in from the Qui Nhon who were real pretty and hid them in my buddies hooch next to mine.  They were giggling and laughing and drunk too.  We had some God damn fucking Major in there for inspections, but the other guys got him drunk early on and dished one of the whores to him to make him look the other way. One of my buddies (Rich Gilmore, call sign Gillous) took a few hard hits to his main rotor system in a loach and had to dump it in a hot zone.  I guess the gooks were everywhere.  Gillous called in the air boss for a naplm run and a couple F-4 Phantoms were handy.  They napalmed the whole area for about 15 minutes until he could use that 100 mph aluminum tape on his fucked up rotorblade to put the skin back together enough to fly it.  He spooled it up, pulled pitch and blew out of the hot LZ shaking like a God damn volcano or an earthquake at full roar.  The tape held half way back to Kontum but over Dak To she let go and he had to land agian for more field repair with 100 mph tape.  He took on fire the instant they got below treeline from some unfriendlies… it got worse when they landed, so…what do you do? What any red blooded WO-1 would do… more air support by the Air Farce to burn down the jungle and any unsuspecting shooting gook. Once the gooks were creamated and he’d rotor-braked the thing to a stop he jumped on a half cut down tree to grab the blade with the torn skin…three wraps of tape around it and he was back in spooling up the turbine before Charlie woke up and started firing again. Like the Air Cav that he was, he was off once again, roaring south to our base just north of Kontum…and he made it because he was drinking "hot" pinapple juice with us that night and telling us how brave he was. And to the guy who asked the quesiton about ducking as you walk up to the cockpit.  Jesus, you better duck.  A gust or a pilot simply scratching his balls might hit the cyclic (Stick to you fixed wing assholes), deflect it full left, right or forward and the rotor tips might even hit the damn ground.  The smart guy not only ducks when getting close to one of these contraptions, he crawls on the ground to mount one…especially in combat because the pilot might be drunk as hell to begin with. BWB

Response:

Chris Woodhouse wrote … I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck?

May not need to duck, but the rotors aren’t all that much higher. Back in September a Latin American pop star exited a copter & waved to his waiting fans — promptly losing several fingers to the rotors. Google for details.

Response:

The rotor of a Huey is some 11 feet up. It can dip to six, and in a gust, lower than that. 1000 hours combat assault time and I still duck.

You flew Hueys? Lemme guess…. WO-1 out of Ft. Rucker, then Air Cav in country. Who with? I remember at Fritsche Field being out on the main ramp sometimes when the Cav detachment would come in. I just loved that unique Huey thump-thump-thump in chorus. Everyone transitioned to hover at about 3 feet, then taxied single-file to the Cav ramp. Always reminded me of circus elephants walking head-to-tail behind each other. David

Response:

 [Image]

I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck? — Chris

Response:

I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck?

Speak for yourself, Shorty!  :-) Seriously, I think it is both a natural reaction, and a wise one.  When I was in the Army, we constantly lost soldiers to main rotor strikes.  Not as common as problems with people running into the rear rotor, but at least once a year.  If the ground is uneven, or something strange causes the blades to flex, they can take the head off of a six foot individual.  A Blackhawk is a big bird, but even though the mast is way up over head, that doesn’t mean the tips are not closer than 6 feet to the ground where you are walking. Eric

Response:

The rotor of a Huey is some 11 feet up. It can dip to six, and in a gust, lower than that. 1000 hours combat assault time and I still duck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck? Speak for yourself, Shorty!  :-) Seriously, I think it is both a natural reaction, and a wise one.  When I was in the Army, we constantly lost soldiers to main rotor strikes.  Not as common as problems with people running into the rear rotor, but at least once a year.  If the ground is uneven, or something strange causes the blades to flex, they can take the head off of a six foot individual.  A Blackhawk is a big bird, but even though the mast is way up over head, that doesn’t mean the tips are not closer than 6 feet to the ground where you are walking. Eric

Response:

Question:

Yeah, count me in you shadster! Opie needs all the hats he can get, Chris, because he doesn’t have any hair. Sign him up for a half dozen. If you’re doing t-shirts sign him up for another half dozen XXL to cover his gut.

Damn, that hurt to the scalp.  Can’t get to the bone through all these layers o’ fat! Opie  –Planning for the Past–

Response:

Hi All, Maybe some would want a hat even if they can’t make it? — Bill Kiene

Ain’t that what this is all about?  I hope I’m not expected to show-up to receive my hat.  Hat just don’t seem worth the price of air-fare. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

Response:

I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so).

PC, I’ll need three. Danl Still can’t believe I’m contemplating flying somewhere for the express purpose of shadding!!!! AAAAArrrrrrrggghhhh…..

Response:

Still can’t believe I’m contemplating flying somewhere for the express purpose of shadding!!!! AAAAArrrrrrrggghhhh…..

So you’re actually contemplating coming to the shad fishout, Dan’l? Cool! BTW, these are American Shad, not the puny, slimey Hickory Shad you remember from your misspent youth. There are also striped bass in the American River. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Yeah, count me in you shadster!

Opie needs all the hats he can get, Chris, because he doesn’t have any hair. Sign him up for a half dozen. If you’re doing t-shirts sign him up for another half dozen XXL to cover his gut. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so).

Yo! Sign me up for a hat, please. /daytripper

Response:

embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.

Count me in for one of the caps. Big Dale

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point.  I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

As requested earlier, I’d like one! –Walt

Response:

I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so).

Yeah, I need another fishing hat like Custer needed another Indian (oops, Native American).   But sure, put me down for one. Joe F.

Response:

As requested earlier, I’d like one!

Me too. — Charlie…

Response:

Hi All, Maybe some would want a hat even if they can’t make it? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point. I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

Response:

As requested earlier, I’d like one! Me too.

Ditto. Wolfgang

Response:

Me too… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Maybe some would want a hat even if they can’t make it? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point. I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

Response:

I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point.  I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

Response:

Yeah, count me in you shadster! Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point. I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

Response:

Question:

Hello: Re-stocking time. Still a few trees I haven’t fully decorated that I plan on attacking next spring. Anyone notice in any of the catalogs any place that offers Woolly Buggers tied Clouser style with metal eyes? Can’t seem to find in any catalog I presently have. Thanks, Bob

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: Re-stocking time. Still a few trees I haven’t fully decorated that I plan on attacking next spring. Anyone notice in any of the catalogs any place that offers Woolly Buggers tied Clouser style with metal eyes? Can’t seem to find in any catalog I presently have. Thanks, Bob

can’t imagine they’d be all that hard to find.  most shops have the ability to get them from the multitude of wholesale fly producers now available.  it may take a little time, but i’m sure your local shop can get some for you. of course, a wooley bugger is about as easy to tie as any fly, and adding lead eyes is easy… also, many buggers are now being tied with coneheads instead of the lead-eyes. cb

Response:

Hello: Re-stocking time. Still a few trees I haven’t fully decorated that I plan on attacking next spring. Anyone notice in any of the catalogs any place that offers Woolly Buggers tied Clouser style with metal eyes?

This is one of my favorite flys. I tie it in sizes from 12 up to 0/2. I like yellow body with white hackle. It’s a killer for big bass. It’s really too easy to tie to bother with buying it. You could tie enough for a season while watching the Simpson’s.

Response:

cb said<<also, many buggers are now being tied with coneheads instead of the lead-eyes. The advantage to the lead-eyes (barrel) is that it makes the hook ride upside down making it more weedless.

Response:

Bob – Are you wanting to buy some or just looking for a recipe? Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello: Re-stocking time. Still a few trees I haven’t fully decorated that I plan on attacking next spring. Anyone notice in any of the catalogs any place that offers Woolly Buggers tied Clouser style with metal eyes? Can’t seem to find in any catalog I presently have. Thanks, Bob

Gary Miller, Moderator To subscribe, send an e-mail to: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<)))}"Catch ‘em all…Put ‘em back!<"{(((<

Response:

Question:

Remember to blow and not suck.   Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like to give them a little enema with a SuperStraw as well…

Response:

You have never tried a black pudding sausage fried in bacon fat then…….it is delicious although basically a blood sausage and as Yorkshire as Mike Connor, although I know which I’d prefer to eat!!! David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got into fishing years ago, spinning and baitcasting, until I discovered the True Faith. But getting back to when, I started fishing because I like cooking and eating the stuff. Now, there is much more to it for me, and I have become very socially correct about it and C&R minded, although I will smartly bop a fish on the head, here and there, for lunch or dinner. I have always thought this was the only way to humanely kill a fish until this morning when I read a piece by Deanna Birkholm, co-founder of a very enjoyable website, Fly Anglers Online. She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments? Comments on what?  The fish dies, the blood get pumped out of the body.  Don’t know if the fish is better tasting though.  As to whether it is right or wrong to do this, it’s up to you and your personal sense of morality. Later,      - Ken it’s very common for people to cut the gills out or just slice the gills to bleed the fish out, especially with white-meated fish.  it absolutely improves the flavor and fileting the fish is considerably less messy. if you ever go bottomfishing in the northwest, you’ll see how common this is, especially with rockfish, lingcod, and halibut.  no different than bleeding out pigs, cows, etc.  blood doesn’t taste good, the meat does <G as for the morality of it, i’ll let people decide that on their own… but you can kill it quickly and still bleed it.  a fish’s heart usually keeps beating after it dies, so it will still bleed out the fish.  as well as letting it bleed to death alive, i don’t know. chris

Response:

Mike you brought back memories.  Mum used to always save the dripping from the roast and after it had congealed, I’d spread it on bread. Had lots of suet pudding during the winter, usually served up with dollops of jam.  Wonder I have any functioning arteries left.

That reminds me of my first of many trips to Germany: the first restaurant I was taken to by my business hosts provided a basket of bread along with a small crock filled with an opaque solid that vaguely resembled butter. Not knowing any better I spread a goodly amount of the stuff onto a piece of the bread, popped it into my mouth and… Ugh! Turned out to be rendered pork fat, which coated everything it contacted from stem to stern. For the sake of diplomacy and avoiding an international incident ;^) I gagged it down without alarming my hosts. I love a good piece of pork as well as the next guy, but it took me a few days and a whole lot of wine and beer to get that coating and the taste thereof out of my system… /daytripper (I left there just a tad more wiser than I arrived)

Response:

[snipped my own post] /daytripper (I left there just a tad more wiser than I arrived)

Ooops! Before rw and the Roffian Grammar Police take me to task – I’ll flagellate myself over the "more wiser" construct. Bad engineer! (whack!)  Bad BAD engineer! (whack! whack!) /daytripper (we now return you to a thread run amuck! ;^)

Response:

Our complimentary breakfast in London often included eggs fried "sunny side up" in mutton fat.  It must have been an acquired taste, which I never did acquire. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have never tried a black pudding sausage fried in bacon fat then…….it is delicious although basically a blood sausage and as Yorkshire as Mike Connor, although I know which I’d prefer to eat!!! David

Response:

I have always thought this was the only way to humanely kill a fish until this morning when I read a piece by Deanna Birkholm, co-founder of a very enjoyable website, Fly Anglers Online. She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments?

Sounds like "Hellraiser Goes Fishing".  There is no fish easier to clean than a trout.  Catch it, rap it on the head (if you do it rights, the little rascal just sort of vibrates), stick your knife in its anus (butthole), zip up to the gills and then cut through above them, put your index finger through the opening between the cut and above the gills and pull.  If you do it right, the gills, fins, and guts zip right out.  Fling this up into the woods and NOT BACK IN THE STREAM.  You will throw it where you have been releasing the suckers.  Now clean out all of the blood in the sack running along the backbone and put it into the wet Arctic Creel with some grass and you have a nice fish to eat later (or save it for a PETA rally). I always practice C&R unless I eat the fish. I wonder if Ms.Birkholm pulls the wings off of flies? DP aka Big Chief

Response:

From whatever point of view, it is better to stun a fish with a sharp blow to the head before subjecting it to any further operations. The blow may kill it outright, and usually does when done properly, but at least the fish will at the worst asphyxiate while unconscious, and not be subjected to unnecessary stress. The way to remove blood from a fish is to clean it as quickly as possible after capture, and not let it bleed to death after ripping its gills out. I do not agree with the method advocated by Ms. Birkholm in her article.  I find it unnecessarily brutal, and superfluous. The reason given that the flesh then tastes better is unlikely to be the case.  The reason for many freshly caught fish not tasting so good immediately is not because of blood tainting, but because of the build-up of muscle poisons induced by the stress of the fight.  Cleaning the fish correctly and storing it in a cool place for a while before preparation will reduce the amount of poison build up, especially in salmonids. I can see no good reason for mutilating living fish unnecessarily, and many for not doing so. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

it’s very common for people to cut the gills out or just slice the gills to bleed the fish out, especially with white-meated fish.  it absolutely improves the flavor and fileting the fish is considerably less messy. if you ever go bottomfishing in the northwest, you’ll see how common this is, especially with rockfish, lingcod, and halibut.  no different than bleeding out pigs, cows, etc.  blood doesn’t taste good, the meat does <G

Completely aside.  I actually went bottomfishing a few months back (it was a X-mas present from last year).  They didn’t cut the gills or bleed the fish.  All they did was once you reeled it up, the guide snipped it off and tossed it in a laundry basket.  I have a feeling that they would get quite a kick out of all this worrying about the fish’s feelings stuff. They still tasted quite good FWIW.      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

Response:

I used to work on a salmon farm off the coast of Maine.  The way the fish were slaughtered was to net them and fill a vat that was a bout four feet cubed in size, with the netted fish.  When the level of squirming, thrashing fish would reach the top of the vat, a hose was put in the tank that pumped CO2 gas in.  That made the fish pass out and become more manageable.  From there they were sent down a chute where a guy would cut their gills and put them on ice. So now you all know how humanely fish killing is done commercially. BTW, the seals that swam too close to the floating fish cages were simply dispatched with a rifle shot to the head. Pete C

Response:

You could always put a 45 to the head.    Boom!    :-)

Overkill Vern.  .22 short should do nicely for most trout.  The occasional behemoth might require .38 special, but the truly large bore and magnum loads should be reserved for the more dangerous and hard to kill species like pike or musky.        :)

Response:

I like to give them a little enema with a SuperStraw as well… — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

Response:

She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it.

Iron is good for you (within limits).  I’ve never had problems with taste though I too have heard that bleeding the fish helps.  Dumping fish guts in the woods or water in Michigan is illegal so as much as I would like to clean the fish right away, I just stick a knife in the head and try to get the fish on ice as soon as possible.  Meanwhile I just keep the dead fish in the river if I am far away from my vehicle.  The rock cod I caught from a party boat off the California coast were just dumped in a burlap sack (no laundry baskets). Many hours later I ate some of them raw and they tasted great.  No blood letting required.  YMMV. Mu

Response:

: yeh, those large party boats would laugh their asses off over "fish : feelings"… man, i can just picture it…lol.  if the anti-c&r, harvest : based fly guys who worry about shit like that actually saw what happens : in saltwater, i think it would actually make them cry….lol.  you mean Sorry Chris, but if you look at who’s posted in this thread about the "feelings" of a fish, it’s not us "anti-c&r" guys. I’ve often said that I’ll stringer fish and drag ‘em around live to keep them fresher, and I wouldn’t be able to count the number of walleye and salmon I’ve thrown on ice alive and kickin’. But remember, this is done for food, for harvest.

you don’t cut the gills and release them, how barbaric <G.  btw, mike conner who doesn’t believe c&r is right, although not a vocal as you and t-bone was posting on this thread about how brutal the practice of slicing the gills was.  my apologies to you for not adding that you were not included in my humorous picture.  and i guess many of the c&r guys would be offended too, and you probably wouldn’t buy anything from orvis <G… although i hear their 24K priests really knock fish out, and for only $250 no less, worth every penny <G  the orvis fish boxes use solar technology to keep fish cool, and come with a with a surgical device you attach to the fish’s gills that pumps all the blood out overboard <G. at only $2500, it should be on everyone’s boat <G chris

Response:

I got into fishing years ago, spinning and baitcasting, until I discovered the True Faith. But getting back to when, I started fishing because I like cooking and eating the stuff. Now, there is much more to it for me, and I have become very socially correct about it and C&R minded, although I will smartly bop a fish on the head, here and there, for lunch or dinner. I have always thought this was the only way to humanely kill a fish until this morning when I read a piece by Deanna Birkholm, co-founder of a very enjoyable website, Fly Anglers Online. She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments?

Response:

Sounds like a very humane humane way to kill a fish,  just like having your lungs ripped out while you bleed to death. Personally I would prefer a rap on the head. Ernie Lawrence Rottersman wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgeable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments?

Response:

Would you rather be killed by having your skull crushed or having your lungs ripped out?

If your brain was the size of a fish’s would you care? This thread is going to go silly in a hurry. — Charlie…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I got into fishing years ago, spinning and baitcasting, until I discovered the True Faith. But getting back to when, I started fishing because I like cooking and eating the stuff. Now, there is much more to it for me, and I have become very socially correct about it and C&R minded, although I will smartly bop a fish on the head, here and there, for lunch or dinner. I have always thought this was the only way to humanely kill a fish until this morning when I read a piece by Deanna Birkholm, co-founder of a very enjoyable website, Fly Anglers Online. She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments?

Comments on what?  The fish dies, the blood get pumped out of the body.  Don’t know if the fish is better tasting though.  As to whether it is right or wrong to do this, it’s up to you and your personal sense of morality. Later,      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got into fishing years ago, spinning and baitcasting, until I discovered the True Faith. But getting back to when, I started fishing because I like cooking and eating the stuff. Now, there is much more to it for me, and I have become very socially correct about it and C&R minded, although I will smartly bop a fish on the head, here and there, for lunch or dinner. I have always thought this was the only way to humanely kill a fish until this morning when I read a piece by Deanna Birkholm, co-founder of a very enjoyable website, Fly Anglers Online. She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments?

Would you rather be killed by having your skull crushed or having your lungs ripped out? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

You could always put a 45 to the head.    Boom!    :-) Vern

actually legal to do for halibut fishing <G chris

Response:

You could always put a 45 to the head.    Boom!    :-) Vern

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got into fishing years ago, spinning and baitcasting, until I discovered the True Faith. But getting back to when, I started fishing because I like cooking and eating the stuff. Now, there is much more to it for me, and I have become very socially correct about it and C&R minded, although I will smartly bop a fish on the head, here and there, for lunch or dinner. I have always thought this was the only way to humanely kill a fish until this morning when I read a piece by Deanna Birkholm, co-founder of a very enjoyable website, Fly Anglers Online. She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments? Comments on what?  The fish dies, the blood get pumped out of the body.  Don’t know if the fish is better tasting though.  As to whether it is right or wrong to do this, it’s up to you and your personal sense of morality. Later,      - Ken

it’s very common for people to cut the gills out or just slice the gills to bleed the fish out, especially with white-meated fish.  it absolutely improves the flavor and fileting the fish is considerably less messy. if you ever go bottomfishing in the northwest, you’ll see how common this is, especially with rockfish, lingcod, and halibut.  no different than bleeding out pigs, cows, etc.  blood doesn’t taste good, the meat does <G as for the morality of it, i’ll let people decide that on their own… but you can kill it quickly and still bleed it.  a fish’s heart usually keeps beating after it dies, so it will still bleed out the fish.  as well as letting it bleed to death alive, i don’t know. chris

Response:

you don’t cut the gills and release them, how barbaric <G.  btw, mike conner who doesn’t believe c&r is right, although not a vocal as you and t-bone was posting on this thread about how brutal the practice of slicing the gills was.

Not strictly true, I do not like it and I do not do it as I think it is not right for me.  I do not presume to tell anybody else how he or she should fish, this is a matter of personal ethics, I will offer my opinion if asked, that is all. Damaging a living animal unnecessarily also does not seem right to me. Quoting the barbarous practices common in commercial fishing and other enterprises in no way justifies anybody else doing it. TL MC

Response:

God knows where this tread is going? Because I don’t, and I was the one who started it. I was not going after the commercial fishing industry, although I think it and the rest of the food industry, along with the companies that make sugared water, grow tobacco, and dispense useless, sometimes harmful drugs have a lot to be ashamed of. I was just speaking personally; I’m not squimish when it comes to killing and preparing food, although I just as soon not hear a lobster scratching the sides of the pot as he’s steamed/boiled to death. Or watch a fish choke to death. Something wrong about that? Not he-man enough for some of you in this newsgroup? And lucky Vern who did not suggest putting the gun to my head because I have already laughed it off reading his and Wolfgang’s posts. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You could always put a 45 to the head.    Boom!    :-) Overkill Vern.  .22 short should do nicely for most trout.  The occasional behemoth might require .38 special, but the truly large bore and magnum loads should be reserved for the more dangerous and hard to kill species like pike or musky.        :)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – it’s very common for people to cut the gills out or just slice the gills to bleed the fish out, especially with white-meated fish.  it absolutely improves the flavor and fileting the fish is considerably less messy. if you ever go bottomfishing in the northwest, you’ll see how common this is, especially with rockfish, lingcod, and halibut.  no different than bleeding out pigs, cows, etc.  blood doesn’t taste good, the meat does <G Completely aside.  I actually went bottomfishing a few months back (it was a X-mas present from last year).  They didn’t cut the gills or bleed the fish.  All they did was once you reeled it up, the guide snipped it off and tossed it in a laundry basket.  I have a feeling that they would get quite a kick out of all this worrying about the fish’s feelings stuff. They still tasted quite good FWIW.      - Ken

yeh, those large party boats would laugh their asses off over "fish feelings"… man, i can just picture it…lol.  if the anti-c&r, harvest based fly guys who worry about shit like that actually saw what happens in saltwater, i think it would actually make them cry….lol.  you mean you let those poor fish just die in a laundry basket?  you must kill them with a $30 orvis priest, in an orvis laundry basket no less…lol glad you had a good time fishing bottomfish, one of my favorite fisheries, especially on the fly. i’m actually surprised they didn’t bleed your fish.  but they are great eating, no question. chris

Response:

Question:

I will be going to a family reunion in Northern Wisconsin next summer and I would like to do a little flyfishing while I’m there.  I’m new to flyfishing and have only fished in Colorado.  I will be North of Green Bay on the Oconto River.  Does anybody know what type of fly is good in June/July time frame?  I will be taking my tying equipment but would like to know so I can tie up some flies before I drive to grandma’s house. I’m also interested in fishing for walleye and pike or anything else that swims!!!!!  Any advice would be welcomed.  You can either post Thanks, Rik Meyers Colorado Springs, CO

Response:

I will be going to a family reunion in Northern Wisconsin next summer and I would like to do a little flyfishing while I’m there.

The two web sites I find most accurate and useful for WI trout: http://home.dwave.net/~patrick/ http://www.vbe.com/~heusers/ff_wi/streams/whereto.htm Hope this helps. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

Can someone give me advise on how to go about learning the art of fly fishing?  How about any good books on the basics?  Thanks

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can someone give me advise on how to go about learning the art of fly fishing?  How about any good books on the basics?  Thanks

Response:

Can someone give me advise on how to go about learning the art of fly fishing?  How about any good books on the basics?  Thanks

This is a big question.  First, is there a flyfishing shop near where you live?  If so, stop in and start talking.  Look at the books, check into casting lessons, and generally ask for information.  That’s the best I can do with this one! Mark Faulkner

Response:

Can someone give me advise on how to go about learning the art of fly fishing?  How about any good books on the basics?  Thanks

Hi My favorite book is the ‘L.L.Bean Fly Fishing Handbook’ by Dave Whitlock. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

The Orvis Flyfishing Guide by Tom Rosenbaugh is a good starter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can someone give me advise on how to go about learning the art of fly fishing?  How about any good books on the basics?  Thanks

Response:

Question:

I hope this gets to you in time. The McKenzie is not the most "bank friendly" river, beacuse of the large amount of private property along the river. You should go to the Caddis Fly Shop in downtown and they will tell you a few places to go. They are very friendly. I use to live down ther and it’s been a while so I can’t give you perfect directions. But Deadman or Deadmon’s Ferry is a decent place, or in the Springfield area, I hope this helps Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I desperately need help.  I just discovered that I

Question:

I am searching for a fly box/book.  I have worn out my old one and can not locate a vendor who carries what i am looking for.  The box/book i am looking for has several leafs (felt like) for leadered wet flies and a box compartment for dry flies.  Does anyone know of a fly box/book like i describe?

Response:

        The last time I saw those was when I worked at a store in New Jersey, 10 years ago. They were (are?) made with the brand name "Common Sense" imprinted on them. They may still be in production for all I know. You could call the store and ask them to search for you (Efinger Sporting Goods 908-356-0604). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am searching for a fly box/book.  I have worn out my old one and can not locate a vendor who carries what i am looking for.  The box/book i am looking for has several leafs (felt like) for leadered wet flies and a box compartment for dry flies.  Does anyone know of a fly box/book like i describe?

Response:

Question:

"I caught the Salmon So please cook it Madam Mr.G.

If you set this to music, it would be…. …ginksta rap!    ;-) Well, you’re back.  Some of us didn’t even get to dry our hankies. Woods Hole, MA  USA I submit my resignation from rec.outdoors.fishing.fly et.la. . . . My time, my energy, my efforts are not to be wasted on a vicious majority that is unworthy of my talents and who have no claim to be regarded as ‘Fly Fishermen’. . . .

      –  George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman

Response:

T-bone, What rhymes with salmon?  How about mammon?

We’d like to be hearing ’bout salmon But so many posts are just spammin’ These guys really bite I wonder how tight Their mailboxes we could be crammin’ August Kristoferson Watercolor Fish Art http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

Response:

"I caught the Salmon So please cook it Madam

But go easy on the ‘leh-mon’… TimW

Response:

here’s a poem about salmon. which is tough, because nothing rhymes with salmon…. TimW

"Ham-bone" almost does.  Maybe even T-bone.   Hmmm….. I might have something to work with here…..       Gene

Response:

T-bone, What rhymes with salmon?  How about mammon? Dave Anderson Almond ? At least that’s the pronunciation I was given in Ca.

It shows both pronounciations (probably spelled wrong, I should look this up also) in my dictionary. Curtis Quist

Response:

here’s a poem about salmon. which is tough, because nothing rhymes with salmon…. TimW

        Mammon, T-Bone, Mammon! David Somerville, Calgary, Alberta (where the Bow flows)

Response:

here’s a poem about salmon.

which is tough, because nothing rhymes with salmon…. TimW

Response:

here’s a poem about salmon. which is tough, because nothing rhymes with salmon…. TimW

When fishing for Great Lakes Chinook Salmon You’ll find all the fishermen jammin’ the banks of the stream like an awful bad dream And you’ll wish they would all be a’scrammin’. Tim, I rose to your cast like a brookie to a #12 Royal Wulff. Paul DiConza Albany, NY

Response:

T-bone, What rhymes with salmon?  How about mammon? Dave Anderson

Response:

T-bone, What rhymes with salmon?  How about mammon? Dave Anderson

Almond ? At least that’s the pronunciation I was given in Ca.

Response:

T-bone, What rhymes with salmon?  How about mammon?

Mammon ? You can slam ‘em ! [on a Grannom...] TimW

Response:

T-bone, What rhymes with salmon?  How about mammon? Dave Anderson Almond ? At least that’s the pronunciation I was given in Ca.

        RHYME FOR A DIME "I caught the Salmon So please cook it Madam Mr.G. Always liked a good camp-lacky.  Please do not send pictures.

Response:

Question:

I just got back from a two week vacation to the Bighorn & the Henry’s Fork.  The fishing was great! The Bighorn: Running at twice the volume that I’ve ever fished it before.  My objective was to put my girls into large rainbows and browns.  With the high water there places for them to wade on the right side looking downstream were extremely difficult.   BTW the volume flow was 6500 cfs.  I took the girls out with Frank Johnson from the Bighorn Trout Shop the first day.  The girls both caught Brown’s to 18 inches.  The long line releases ran about 5:1, but they did great under difficult conditions.  The nice gravel bars I expected them to be able to put them on were either four feet under water or completely washed out.  Many of my favorite dry fly areas (side channels and backwaters were completely washed out, never to be seen again).  Lets hear it for the DWR.  Frank feels that in ten to twenty years of the current mismanagement the bighorn will be a nice smooth irrigation ditch with no character. The next two days I took the oars and really enjoyed myself.  My twelve year old took a twenty-one inch rainbow male on the second day.  The fishing was good but not what I really like (too much lead). Henry’s Fork (July 3 thru July 9):  The weather turned cold and wet.  Sleet, hail and snow at higher elevations.  The only warm weather was on Thursday my last day. July 3: Fished the Fire Hole in wet cold weather.  Lots of PMD’s comming off, but not profusely.  Lot’s of small fish raising all over on the PMD’s. A few big fish were porposing regularily.  Looking closer I noticed Baetis were hatching and the big guys were keyed into the size 18 & 20’s.  I fished downstream with dry baetis emerger and had a ball with fish to 16 inches. Everyone else in my area was using the larger PMD’s and catching dinks. The rest of the trip I fished the Fork, concentrating on the Ranch.  Great hatches and great dry fly fishing.  At on point below the Osborn bridge there were five insect hatches in progress (micro caddis, evening caddis – size 18, large Caddis with speckled wings, PMD’s and Flav’s).  The fish keyed into different hatches as the light conditions changed. I’ll get on my soap box for a second.  The Fork is still a mighty sick river.  Lot’s of silt and Brown Drakes in the Millionaires Pool area where I remember only gravel.  Also a lot of the fish in the river a lake fish from the Res. that was drained last year.  You know immediately when you have a river fish, they jump 3 or 4 times and take you into your backing immediately.  The trout from the lake are much less robust.  The increase in trout numbers is great for the outfitters, but I miss the quality.  I missed having my clock cleaned by big trout on the Ranch, ripping line and rubbing me off in a weed bed.  The trout have to win sometimes to make it interesting. My only regret was that I had to leave without a spinner fall.   It was just too cold in the evenings, except for last Thursday.  I spent a beautiful evening on the ranch waiting for spinners and had to settle for a Brown Drake hatch.  The big trout were up for about thirty minutes before the White fish moved in and the trout were gone. It’s always fun  to spend the evening in Church (The Ranch)! If you want some great guides for the Ranch I’d recommend  Mate (The last name escapes me, if I ever knew it), who guides for Mike Lawson’s Henry’s Fork Anglers at last chance.

Response:

I forgot to mention that the area from the end of the Box to the Ranch was fishing great on drys (Caddis, PMD’s and Flav.’s).   Fish to raisers, don’t just cover water.  

Response: