Question:

Response to stress signals put out by hooked fish, – to make a meal out of the hooked fish – to eat anything regurgitated – to eat the fly/lure if is visible – and perhaps, curiosity.

Reflexive schooling response?

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Response to stress signals put out by hooked fish, – to make a meal out of the hooked fish – to eat anything regurgitated – to eat the fly/lure if is visible – and perhaps, curiosity. Reflexive schooling response?

Exactly.  Schooling is a behavior that has many rewards.  Thus, fish that school have survived to pass on the tendency to school. Trout are Darwinian.

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I’ve seen spawners do that.  Lots of times there will be two males hanging around a female.  Of course I’ve only caught spawners by accident bruce h

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J. Butler writes: I noticed when I hooked a trout in a small stream that as it ran it was flanked on either side by two of its fellows.

(snip)   Land locked salmon and brook trout display the same behavior.  My theory:  the trout on the hook emits a distress signal of some sort and the other trout are there to pick up anything regurgitated.  I have seen bigger trout actually attack the hooked trout.  In waters that contain trout and pike, it is not unusual for a pike to come up and take the entire trout in its mouth. Dave

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I have seen bigger trout actually attack the hooked trout.  In waters that contain trout and pike, it is not unusual for a pike to come up and take the entire trout in its mouth.

Was in the local shop last week listening to the owner’s stories about bonefishing in Abacos.   His boat was in the midst of a large school of bones, and large sharks were beginning to enter the school and snap off hooked fish.   He claims (and this is fishing shop talk) that if he watched his hooked fish and a shark came near, he could give the fish enough line to swim normally, and the shark would swim past and search other prey. Joe F.

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He claims (and this is fishing shop talk) that if he watched his hooked fish and a shark came near, he could give the fish enough line to swim normally, and the shark would swim past and search other prey.

I have observed this with bass and hooked bluegill on several occasions. My own interpretation is that the big fish is looking for a wounded or ailing little fish to eat rather than trying to track down a healthy one, the latter being much harder to catch. –Steve

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -J. Butler writes: I noticed when I hooked a trout in a small stream that as it ran it was flanked on either side by two of its fellows. (snip)   Land locked salmon and brook trout display the same behavior.  My theory:  the trout on the hook emits a distress signal of some sort and the other trout are there to pick up anything regurgitated.  I have seen bigger trout actually attack the hooked trout.  In waters that contain trout and pike, it is not unusual for a pike to come up and take the entire trout in its mouth. Dave

Two years ago I was fishing the Thompson R. in N.W. Montana. While bringing in a small rainbow I had a bull trout (I assume) grab said fish and drop down to the stream bottom. Couldn’t budge him and he wouldnt let go. Eventually had to bust the 5x tippet. Have also seen smallmouth feed on minnows regurgitated by a hooked fish. G.Cleveland

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Zimbo writes: I have observed this with bass and hooked bluegill on several occasions. My own interpretation is that the big fish is looking for a wounded or ailing little fish to eat rather than trying to track down a healthy one, the latter being much harder to catch.

But, I have seen small fish follow the bigger hooked fish.  I had on a 20 inch brook trout and had 12 – 15 inch trout following its every move.  (????) Dave

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George Cleveland writes: Two years ago I was fishing the Thompson R. in N.W. Montana. While bringing in a small rainbow I had a bull trout (I assume) grab said fish and drop down to the stream bottom. Couldn’t budge him and he wouldnt let go. Eventually had to bust the 5x tippet.

I got into a large bull trout on the East Fork of the South Fork of the Salmon River.  The guide got a "glimpse" of him as he raced by and went to the bottom of a fairly deep pool.  I too could not budge him and had to break the 5X FC . It is illegal to intentionally fish for the bull in Idaho.  It is a protected species.   I’ve caught Dolly Vardens on the Aleutians in Alaska, but they were’nt anywhere near as mean as the ones I saw in Idaho! Dave

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I have observed this with bass and hooked bluegill on several occasions. My own interpretation is that the big fish is looking for a wounded or ailing little fish to eat rather than trying to track down a healthy one, the latter being much harder to catch.

No doubt about that.  But I imagined the OP was talking about fish the same size swimming with the hooked one.  I’m kind of curious about that too.

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I have observed this with bass and hooked bluegill on several occasions. My own interpretation is that the big fish is looking for a wounded or ailing little fish to eat rather than trying to track down a healthy one, the latter being much harder to catch. No doubt about that.  But I imagined the OP was talking about fish the same size swimming with the hooked one.  I’m kind of curious about that too.

i believe the flee response of fish is often similar enough to a feeding response (especially for saltwater species)… also, i think some of it might be curiousity…. like wondering why the hooked fish is behaving so strangly… plus, often hooked fish will regurgitate food items… so a fish could be following picking off bits of food.  without being a fish it’s always gonna be guesses about the exact reason for their behavior. chris

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 Has anyone else observed other fish accompanying a caught one?

I reckon they just see a mate in distress and attck him while he’s down. One less fish to have to fight about over food & sexual partners. But then that’s just what zoology drummed into me for years and years. They probably got it wrong. Ari Ari Bert                                        Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903                             +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230                             Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                       Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za                                Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

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I have observed this with bass and hooked bluegill on several occasions. My own interpretation is that the big fish is looking for a wounded or ailing little fish to eat rather than trying to track down a healthy one, the latter being much harder to catch. No doubt about that.  But I imagined the OP was talking about fish the same size swimming with the hooked one.  I’m kind of curious about that too.

I’ve seen this more than once and put it down to this: Response to stress signals put out by hooked fish, – to make a meal out of the hooked fish – to eat anything regurgitated – to eat the fly/lure if is visible – and perhaps, curiosity. It is unquestionably not top "help out" as fish do not have the brain capacity for altruism.  All their responses are evolved around, eat, avoid being eaten, and procreation. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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No doubt about that.  But I imagined the OP was talking about fish the same size swimming with the hooked one.  I’m kind of curious about that too. I’ve seen this more than once and put it down to this: Response to stress signals put out by hooked fish, – to make a meal out of the hooked fish – to eat anything regurgitated – to eat the fly/lure if is visible – and perhaps, curiosity.

Seems like a complete list to me. I can’t remember seeing this with trout. Maybe with stockers? It is more common with some other fishes. I’ve noticed it particularly with Smallmouth. The fish following generally appear VERY agitated. Smallmouth have a tendency to regurgitate when hooked.   It is unquestionably not top "help out" as fish do not have the brain capacity for altruism.   All their responses are evolved around, eat, avoid being eaten, and procreation.

There are a few others. For example, seeking a suitable temperature sometimes takes precedence over everything else. Willi

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Could the fellows simply have accompanied the one they thought had found a meal and tried to chase the same source of food without seeing it?

That’s what my hypothesis is. This has happened to me numerous times. One time I had one hooked that got away, as soon as he swam off another took the hook. It was very cool to see. Was the trout you caught a rainbow? It seems to me RB’s exhibit this behaviour more than others. I might be mistaken though. Jim

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I noticed when I hooked a trout in a small stream that as it ran it was flanked on either side by two of its fellows.  They did not follow just away from me, by towards me and in an arc the caught one swam.  Has anyone else observed other fish accompanying a caught one?  Does anyone have an hypothesis as to why other fish would accompany a caught one?  Could the accompanying fish been unaware the other had been caught and just exhibit schooling behavior?  Could the accompaning fish been aware their caught fellow was in distress and aiding it in some way?  Could the fellows simply have accompanied the one they thought had found a meal and tried to chase the same source of food without seeing it?  Did they simply respond to the caught one’s flight and accompany it away from danger?  Too bad I wasn’t fishing a dropper to pick up one of its mates!

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Question:

Remember to blow and not suck.   Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like to give them a little enema with a SuperStraw as well…

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You have never tried a black pudding sausage fried in bacon fat then…….it is delicious although basically a blood sausage and as Yorkshire as Mike Connor, although I know which I’d prefer to eat!!! David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got into fishing years ago, spinning and baitcasting, until I discovered the True Faith. But getting back to when, I started fishing because I like cooking and eating the stuff. Now, there is much more to it for me, and I have become very socially correct about it and C&R minded, although I will smartly bop a fish on the head, here and there, for lunch or dinner. I have always thought this was the only way to humanely kill a fish until this morning when I read a piece by Deanna Birkholm, co-founder of a very enjoyable website, Fly Anglers Online. She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments? Comments on what?  The fish dies, the blood get pumped out of the body.  Don’t know if the fish is better tasting though.  As to whether it is right or wrong to do this, it’s up to you and your personal sense of morality. Later,      - Ken it’s very common for people to cut the gills out or just slice the gills to bleed the fish out, especially with white-meated fish.  it absolutely improves the flavor and fileting the fish is considerably less messy. if you ever go bottomfishing in the northwest, you’ll see how common this is, especially with rockfish, lingcod, and halibut.  no different than bleeding out pigs, cows, etc.  blood doesn’t taste good, the meat does <G as for the morality of it, i’ll let people decide that on their own… but you can kill it quickly and still bleed it.  a fish’s heart usually keeps beating after it dies, so it will still bleed out the fish.  as well as letting it bleed to death alive, i don’t know. chris

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Mike you brought back memories.  Mum used to always save the dripping from the roast and after it had congealed, I’d spread it on bread. Had lots of suet pudding during the winter, usually served up with dollops of jam.  Wonder I have any functioning arteries left.

That reminds me of my first of many trips to Germany: the first restaurant I was taken to by my business hosts provided a basket of bread along with a small crock filled with an opaque solid that vaguely resembled butter. Not knowing any better I spread a goodly amount of the stuff onto a piece of the bread, popped it into my mouth and… Ugh! Turned out to be rendered pork fat, which coated everything it contacted from stem to stern. For the sake of diplomacy and avoiding an international incident ;^) I gagged it down without alarming my hosts. I love a good piece of pork as well as the next guy, but it took me a few days and a whole lot of wine and beer to get that coating and the taste thereof out of my system… /daytripper (I left there just a tad more wiser than I arrived)

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[snipped my own post] /daytripper (I left there just a tad more wiser than I arrived)

Ooops! Before rw and the Roffian Grammar Police take me to task – I’ll flagellate myself over the "more wiser" construct. Bad engineer! (whack!)  Bad BAD engineer! (whack! whack!) /daytripper (we now return you to a thread run amuck! ;^)

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Our complimentary breakfast in London often included eggs fried "sunny side up" in mutton fat.  It must have been an acquired taste, which I never did acquire. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have never tried a black pudding sausage fried in bacon fat then…….it is delicious although basically a blood sausage and as Yorkshire as Mike Connor, although I know which I’d prefer to eat!!! David

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I have always thought this was the only way to humanely kill a fish until this morning when I read a piece by Deanna Birkholm, co-founder of a very enjoyable website, Fly Anglers Online. She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments?

Sounds like "Hellraiser Goes Fishing".  There is no fish easier to clean than a trout.  Catch it, rap it on the head (if you do it rights, the little rascal just sort of vibrates), stick your knife in its anus (butthole), zip up to the gills and then cut through above them, put your index finger through the opening between the cut and above the gills and pull.  If you do it right, the gills, fins, and guts zip right out.  Fling this up into the woods and NOT BACK IN THE STREAM.  You will throw it where you have been releasing the suckers.  Now clean out all of the blood in the sack running along the backbone and put it into the wet Arctic Creel with some grass and you have a nice fish to eat later (or save it for a PETA rally). I always practice C&R unless I eat the fish. I wonder if Ms.Birkholm pulls the wings off of flies? DP aka Big Chief

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From whatever point of view, it is better to stun a fish with a sharp blow to the head before subjecting it to any further operations. The blow may kill it outright, and usually does when done properly, but at least the fish will at the worst asphyxiate while unconscious, and not be subjected to unnecessary stress. The way to remove blood from a fish is to clean it as quickly as possible after capture, and not let it bleed to death after ripping its gills out. I do not agree with the method advocated by Ms. Birkholm in her article.  I find it unnecessarily brutal, and superfluous. The reason given that the flesh then tastes better is unlikely to be the case.  The reason for many freshly caught fish not tasting so good immediately is not because of blood tainting, but because of the build-up of muscle poisons induced by the stress of the fight.  Cleaning the fish correctly and storing it in a cool place for a while before preparation will reduce the amount of poison build up, especially in salmonids. I can see no good reason for mutilating living fish unnecessarily, and many for not doing so. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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it’s very common for people to cut the gills out or just slice the gills to bleed the fish out, especially with white-meated fish.  it absolutely improves the flavor and fileting the fish is considerably less messy. if you ever go bottomfishing in the northwest, you’ll see how common this is, especially with rockfish, lingcod, and halibut.  no different than bleeding out pigs, cows, etc.  blood doesn’t taste good, the meat does <G

Completely aside.  I actually went bottomfishing a few months back (it was a X-mas present from last year).  They didn’t cut the gills or bleed the fish.  All they did was once you reeled it up, the guide snipped it off and tossed it in a laundry basket.  I have a feeling that they would get quite a kick out of all this worrying about the fish’s feelings stuff. They still tasted quite good FWIW.      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

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I used to work on a salmon farm off the coast of Maine.  The way the fish were slaughtered was to net them and fill a vat that was a bout four feet cubed in size, with the netted fish.  When the level of squirming, thrashing fish would reach the top of the vat, a hose was put in the tank that pumped CO2 gas in.  That made the fish pass out and become more manageable.  From there they were sent down a chute where a guy would cut their gills and put them on ice. So now you all know how humanely fish killing is done commercially. BTW, the seals that swam too close to the floating fish cages were simply dispatched with a rifle shot to the head. Pete C

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You could always put a 45 to the head.    Boom!    :-)

Overkill Vern.  .22 short should do nicely for most trout.  The occasional behemoth might require .38 special, but the truly large bore and magnum loads should be reserved for the more dangerous and hard to kill species like pike or musky.        :)

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I like to give them a little enema with a SuperStraw as well… — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

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She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it.

Iron is good for you (within limits).  I’ve never had problems with taste though I too have heard that bleeding the fish helps.  Dumping fish guts in the woods or water in Michigan is illegal so as much as I would like to clean the fish right away, I just stick a knife in the head and try to get the fish on ice as soon as possible.  Meanwhile I just keep the dead fish in the river if I am far away from my vehicle.  The rock cod I caught from a party boat off the California coast were just dumped in a burlap sack (no laundry baskets). Many hours later I ate some of them raw and they tasted great.  No blood letting required.  YMMV. Mu

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: yeh, those large party boats would laugh their asses off over "fish : feelings"… man, i can just picture it…lol.  if the anti-c&r, harvest : based fly guys who worry about shit like that actually saw what happens : in saltwater, i think it would actually make them cry….lol.  you mean Sorry Chris, but if you look at who’s posted in this thread about the "feelings" of a fish, it’s not us "anti-c&r" guys. I’ve often said that I’ll stringer fish and drag ‘em around live to keep them fresher, and I wouldn’t be able to count the number of walleye and salmon I’ve thrown on ice alive and kickin’. But remember, this is done for food, for harvest.

you don’t cut the gills and release them, how barbaric <G.  btw, mike conner who doesn’t believe c&r is right, although not a vocal as you and t-bone was posting on this thread about how brutal the practice of slicing the gills was.  my apologies to you for not adding that you were not included in my humorous picture.  and i guess many of the c&r guys would be offended too, and you probably wouldn’t buy anything from orvis <G… although i hear their 24K priests really knock fish out, and for only $250 no less, worth every penny <G  the orvis fish boxes use solar technology to keep fish cool, and come with a with a surgical device you attach to the fish’s gills that pumps all the blood out overboard <G. at only $2500, it should be on everyone’s boat <G chris

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I got into fishing years ago, spinning and baitcasting, until I discovered the True Faith. But getting back to when, I started fishing because I like cooking and eating the stuff. Now, there is much more to it for me, and I have become very socially correct about it and C&R minded, although I will smartly bop a fish on the head, here and there, for lunch or dinner. I have always thought this was the only way to humanely kill a fish until this morning when I read a piece by Deanna Birkholm, co-founder of a very enjoyable website, Fly Anglers Online. She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments?

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Sounds like a very humane humane way to kill a fish,  just like having your lungs ripped out while you bleed to death. Personally I would prefer a rap on the head. Ernie Lawrence Rottersman wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgeable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments?

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Would you rather be killed by having your skull crushed or having your lungs ripped out?

If your brain was the size of a fish’s would you care? This thread is going to go silly in a hurry. — Charlie…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I got into fishing years ago, spinning and baitcasting, until I discovered the True Faith. But getting back to when, I started fishing because I like cooking and eating the stuff. Now, there is much more to it for me, and I have become very socially correct about it and C&R minded, although I will smartly bop a fish on the head, here and there, for lunch or dinner. I have always thought this was the only way to humanely kill a fish until this morning when I read a piece by Deanna Birkholm, co-founder of a very enjoyable website, Fly Anglers Online. She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments?

Comments on what?  The fish dies, the blood get pumped out of the body.  Don’t know if the fish is better tasting though.  As to whether it is right or wrong to do this, it’s up to you and your personal sense of morality. Later,      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got into fishing years ago, spinning and baitcasting, until I discovered the True Faith. But getting back to when, I started fishing because I like cooking and eating the stuff. Now, there is much more to it for me, and I have become very socially correct about it and C&R minded, although I will smartly bop a fish on the head, here and there, for lunch or dinner. I have always thought this was the only way to humanely kill a fish until this morning when I read a piece by Deanna Birkholm, co-founder of a very enjoyable website, Fly Anglers Online. She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments?

Would you rather be killed by having your skull crushed or having your lungs ripped out? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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You could always put a 45 to the head.    Boom!    :-) Vern

actually legal to do for halibut fishing <G chris

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You could always put a 45 to the head.    Boom!    :-) Vern

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got into fishing years ago, spinning and baitcasting, until I discovered the True Faith. But getting back to when, I started fishing because I like cooking and eating the stuff. Now, there is much more to it for me, and I have become very socially correct about it and C&R minded, although I will smartly bop a fish on the head, here and there, for lunch or dinner. I have always thought this was the only way to humanely kill a fish until this morning when I read a piece by Deanna Birkholm, co-founder of a very enjoyable website, Fly Anglers Online. She advises removing the gills of the fish. The fish dies, she writes, but it’s heart keeps pumping, so the blood is evacuated from the body and the fish is better tasting because of it. I’m not challenging Ms. Birkholm; she sounds very knowledgable; but I never heard this one before. Any comments? Comments on what?  The fish dies, the blood get pumped out of the body.  Don’t know if the fish is better tasting though.  As to whether it is right or wrong to do this, it’s up to you and your personal sense of morality. Later,      - Ken

it’s very common for people to cut the gills out or just slice the gills to bleed the fish out, especially with white-meated fish.  it absolutely improves the flavor and fileting the fish is considerably less messy. if you ever go bottomfishing in the northwest, you’ll see how common this is, especially with rockfish, lingcod, and halibut.  no different than bleeding out pigs, cows, etc.  blood doesn’t taste good, the meat does <G as for the morality of it, i’ll let people decide that on their own… but you can kill it quickly and still bleed it.  a fish’s heart usually keeps beating after it dies, so it will still bleed out the fish.  as well as letting it bleed to death alive, i don’t know. chris

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you don’t cut the gills and release them, how barbaric <G.  btw, mike conner who doesn’t believe c&r is right, although not a vocal as you and t-bone was posting on this thread about how brutal the practice of slicing the gills was.

Not strictly true, I do not like it and I do not do it as I think it is not right for me.  I do not presume to tell anybody else how he or she should fish, this is a matter of personal ethics, I will offer my opinion if asked, that is all. Damaging a living animal unnecessarily also does not seem right to me. Quoting the barbarous practices common in commercial fishing and other enterprises in no way justifies anybody else doing it. TL MC

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God knows where this tread is going? Because I don’t, and I was the one who started it. I was not going after the commercial fishing industry, although I think it and the rest of the food industry, along with the companies that make sugared water, grow tobacco, and dispense useless, sometimes harmful drugs have a lot to be ashamed of. I was just speaking personally; I’m not squimish when it comes to killing and preparing food, although I just as soon not hear a lobster scratching the sides of the pot as he’s steamed/boiled to death. Or watch a fish choke to death. Something wrong about that? Not he-man enough for some of you in this newsgroup? And lucky Vern who did not suggest putting the gun to my head because I have already laughed it off reading his and Wolfgang’s posts. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You could always put a 45 to the head.    Boom!    :-) Overkill Vern.  .22 short should do nicely for most trout.  The occasional behemoth might require .38 special, but the truly large bore and magnum loads should be reserved for the more dangerous and hard to kill species like pike or musky.        :)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – it’s very common for people to cut the gills out or just slice the gills to bleed the fish out, especially with white-meated fish.  it absolutely improves the flavor and fileting the fish is considerably less messy. if you ever go bottomfishing in the northwest, you’ll see how common this is, especially with rockfish, lingcod, and halibut.  no different than bleeding out pigs, cows, etc.  blood doesn’t taste good, the meat does <G Completely aside.  I actually went bottomfishing a few months back (it was a X-mas present from last year).  They didn’t cut the gills or bleed the fish.  All they did was once you reeled it up, the guide snipped it off and tossed it in a laundry basket.  I have a feeling that they would get quite a kick out of all this worrying about the fish’s feelings stuff. They still tasted quite good FWIW.      - Ken

yeh, those large party boats would laugh their asses off over "fish feelings"… man, i can just picture it…lol.  if the anti-c&r, harvest based fly guys who worry about shit like that actually saw what happens in saltwater, i think it would actually make them cry….lol.  you mean you let those poor fish just die in a laundry basket?  you must kill them with a $30 orvis priest, in an orvis laundry basket no less…lol glad you had a good time fishing bottomfish, one of my favorite fisheries, especially on the fly. i’m actually surprised they didn’t bleed your fish.  but they are great eating, no question. chris

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Question:

I have a close friend stationed in Okinawa.  I was wondering if the group could point me in the direction of cheap flights to there.  Also, what are some touristy things I can do while there, I plan on being there for about a week.  Please post or e-mail privately Thanks for your help. WILLZZ….

Response:

I have a close friend stationed in Okinawa.  I was wondering if the group could point me in the direction of cheap flights to there.  Also, what are some touristy things I can do while there, I plan on being there for about a week.  Please post or e-mail privately Thanks for your help. How can we possibly give you advice on cheap fares if we do not know where you lve!!!! The whole world is reading this Newsgroup. Do you live in Amsterdam, the Netherlands? Then I can give you some rates. Giny, Tozai Travel, Amsterdam

Response:

I have a close friend stationed in Okinawa.  I was wondering if the group could point me in the direction of cheap flights to there.  Also, what are some touristy things I can do while there, I plan on being there for about a week.  Please post or e-mail privately Thanks for your help.

There’s not a great deal to see on Okinawa Island, but the major tourist sight is Shuri Castle in Naha (the capital city). It’s reconstructed, but very well done. There’s also a big market (Ichiba) in Naha and, nearby, an interesting area of potters’ workshops (Tsuboya district). After that, most people take a tour round the WWII battle sights in the south of the island. For example the Underground Navy Headquarters – where you go down into the tunnels and there’s a small museum. Heading northwards, Ryukyu Mura is a reasonably interesting "culture village", and then there are the beaches such as Moon Beach and Tiger Beach. With your own transport, I’d recommend the far north, where you find some more traditional fishing villages, and more mountains. There are a couple of castle ruins to visit, too. But, if the weather’s good and you have time, the best of Okinawa is really the outer islands. The Kerama islands are quite close by – a ferry ride from Naha – but the most beautiful are the southern islands such as Miyako-jima, Ishigaki-jima and Iriomote-jima. As you’ve only got a week, I think you’ld need to pick just one of these and fly from Naha. Author, The Rough Guides to Vietnam and Japan http://www.roughguides.com

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There a lot of nice place to vsit while in Okinawa.   I recommend to visit some, Shuri Castle (in Naha), Himeyuri Park (cactus park, in Naha), Gyukusendo Cave(Naha), Okinawa Zoo(Kodomo no kuni) close to Gate 2 of Kadena Air Base,  Wine Factory (in Nago), Yambaru (Park for dfferent kinds of birds, Nago),  Ryukyu Mura (old Okinawan Village, close to Torrii Station),  Okinawa Memorial Park (Nago).  Navy Underground Headquarter.  If you like to play Golf, theres a lot of driving range, and Golf Course.  Try to go to some of this places, I’m sure you gonna have a goodtime. And at night you can try to go to Big Echo(Karaoke Bar). Pyramid (for Disco). HAVE FUN…

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Question:

Here’s a link that may provide you with the information you’re looking for. http://www.fedflyfishers.org/club_list.html#pa —                                                       -dnc- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a fly fishing club in the Philadelphia/South Jersey area with a good percentage of women anglers or a women’s club.  My wife is learning and would like to meet other female ff’s.

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We’ve got you covered!  http://www.halcyon.com/wffn/clubs.htm Nationwide clubs listings (Canada too).

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I am looking for a fly fishing club in the Philadelphia/South Jersey area with a good percentage of women anglers or a women’s club.  My wife is learning and would like to meet other female ff’s.

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Question:

Wow! George and Tim-Bone have done it time and time again. Lets give each other a chance. I believe they are good folks, but haven’t met either. I have never fished a nymph, but tied a few. I’ve fished worms, soft shelled crabs, minnows, etc. when I was little and didnt know about fly fishing. At the age of 12 I mowed lawns to earn $12 for my first fly rod, a bamboo, and still have it. One of my most enjoyable times was in Wisconsin Muskie fishing. Another was on the Mc Kinzie in Qregon with my wife. The Muskie fishing was with live shiners and the Oregon trip was dry flies. A point I would like to make about fishing is that it isn’t what you use that memories are made of it is the stream, lake, fish caught (kept or released) and the _moment_ of excitement at the time. What you used doesn’t matter, it is the memory that you will keep. So let’s give some slack to the folks who use INDICATORS, droppers or otherwise, and remember the memories. keep ‘em dry lukn4fish Bob Madden San Jose, Ca

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow! George and Tim-Bone have done it time and time again. Lets give each other a chance. I believe they are good folks, but haven’t met either. snip A point I would like to make about fishing is that it isn’t what you use that memories are made of it is the stream, lake, fish caught (kept or released) and the _moment_ of excitement at the time. What you used doesn’t matter, it is the memory that you will keep. So let’s give some slack to the folks who use INDICATORS, droppers or otherwise, and remember the memories. keep ‘em dry lukn4fish Bob Madden San Jose, Ca

And don’t forget the enjoyment fishing with the right partner can add. Steve

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You had better be careful…your post sounds an awful lot like good, old, common sense…something that is often missing from some of the rhetoric I see in this group.  Ever think of applying for a moderators position? JIM WARD

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Good comments!  It’s really about how you internalize the experience, not so much the tools that you use. -Burton (p.s., I love the McKenzie) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow! George and Tim-Bone have done it time and time again. Lets give each other a chance. I believe they are good folks, but haven’t met either. I have never fished a nymph, but tied a few. I’ve fished worms, soft shelled crabs, minnows, etc. when I was little and didnt know about fly fishing. At the age of 12 I mowed lawns to earn $12 for my first fly rod, a bamboo, and still have it. One of my most enjoyable times was in Wisconsin Muskie fishing. Another was on the Mc Kinzie in Qregon with my wife. The Muskie fishing was with live shiners and the Oregon trip was dry flies. A point I would like to make about fishing is that it isn’t what you use that memories are made of it is the stream, lake, fish caught (kept or released) and the _moment_ of excitement at the time. What you used doesn’t matter, it is the memory that you will keep. So let’s give some slack to the folks who use INDICATORS, droppers or otherwise, and remember the memories. keep ‘em dry lukn4fish Bob Madden San Jose, Ca

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Question:

I have figured out how to use fiberoptics to backlight a chest pack.  It has no direct light to scare trout, used red light, and only needs a couple of AAA batteries.

Well done ! Do you all think that this is marketable?  I could retrofit most chest packs for under $35, which is chump change to fly fishing (or so Orvis seems to think)….

Of course it’s marketable.  I won’t buy one though.  What fun would night fishing be if you had a reliable light ? TimW

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have figured out how to use fiberoptics to backlight a chest pack.  It has no direct light to scare trout, used red light, and only needs a couple of AAA batteries. Do you all think that this is marketable?  I could retrofit most chest packs for under $35, which is chump change to fly fishing (or so Orvis seems to think)…. No, it’s too cheap and inconspicuous.  What’s the fun of buying flyfishing stuff if every yahoo can afford it and no one can see it?  I’d rather ostentatiously pull the Honda generator out of my Orvis Jeep Cherokee, crank her up so that all can hear me and run the power out to me while I’m in the stream.  That way I can use a halogen lamp to read the faxes coming in from my broker in Japan over my handheld cellular fax machine. Plus, without a direct light, who’ll be able to see me?  And even if they could, won’t a red light throw off my color coordinated vest and hat?  Sounds like a bad idea to me. Musconet

Great stuff, I love off-season :-

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Question:

Fly-fishing is for faggits.

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Fly-fishing is for faggits.

Well, there are ’some around’ I’m sure that will be glad to talk to you about any kind of fly fishing you have in mind. Mr. Gink

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Fly-fishing is for faggits. Well, there are ’some around’ I’m sure that will be glad to talk to you about any kind of fly fishing you have in mind. Mr. Gink

Mr. Tiger didn’t join the military because he didn’t want to leave his brother’s behind. —        * * *  Some days I’d rather just give up and go fishing * * * Doug Freeman

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Fly-fishing is for faggits.

That’s right, so you better keep that cute little rump of yours away from my drift… TimW

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Fly-fishing is for faggits.

– And LSU is for the spelling disabled!!!! jg

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…college men from LSU     went in dumb, come out dumb too! R. Neuman,"Rednecks" 1974

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: : Fly-fishing is for faggits. : Someone once told me two things about LSU. First, the entrance requirements are so low that some can get in with nothing more than an expired driver’s license. Second, most LSU grads go to Mississippi and by doing so raise the I.Q. of both states. It appears from tiger’s post that at least the former is true. Kind regards, Steve Kernosky

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u know what ‘faggots’ were before they became ‘faggots’?….bait fishermen

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Fly-fishing is for faggits.

That’s probably why you chose LSU, Tiger. You can spell that correctly!

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Fly-fishing is for faggits.

                                                ^^^^-nice spelling and bait fishing is for CRETINS. Hopefully you will never flyfish, because all we need is one more Heathen on our rivers. Oh by the way, do you want to go out and do a little snagging??? Eat my fly pal.

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Fly-fishing is for faggits.

jvermil !  Thanks, very much.   You are absolutely correct !!! Thanks for pointing it out, we owe you one ! Just look at *all* the FAGGIT terms in the Flyfishing vocabulary… "Drag" "Rod Action" "Line Lubricant" "Leader Butt" "Sperm Flies" "Vise" (I have to stop, it’s grossing me out…) Yup, the whole sport is a cover-up for closet benuches.   No doubt about it.   Thanks for pointing it out.   ..and I still think you have a really nice rump. Your fantasy net lover, TimW

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Fly-fishing is for faggits.

Yes, Shall we meet. I’m 215 lbs 6 ft tall and horny.   Do  "YOU" squeal like a  pig? Woof  woof  Arrp!! R

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Question:

Any places near Stockton, Ca or Sac that anyone has already fished. I’m looking for good places to fly fish for trout. Thanks Bob

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Yes, try the Stanislaus River just East of Oakdale, below Tullock Reservoir.  I was there on Saturday and cought a couple of wild rainbows. All Catch and Release.  The water is high, yet fish are catchable. Doug

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Question:

       I am getting a Golden Retriever pup in one week and I want him to be a good fishing dog.  His father, "B", is horrible.  He has learned that my fly is what catches the fish, therefore he followes it swimming downstream.  Please help me teach my dog to be a good, mello fishing dog.                                  Thank you,                                     Penny Acklen

My yellow lab started out bad, but has improved a lot since being a puppy. "Fishing" training in our case started as general training with a tennis ball in the river. Get the dog to sit and hold while the ball floats downstream till you release him (Yah, like that’s easy . Once you’re at this point your fly will be safe. Even though Cass doesn’t chase flies, I still keep her in the truck if anyone else is on the beach. Otherwise I go cast in the rip and she chases gulls down the beach. She did try to retreive a striper I released last year, but I think the 50 yd. ride down the tide rip taught her a good lesson. Another thing that seemed to work for us was taking her into the marshes in a local estuary, where I would have her lay down and stay while I fished, then when I was done I would toss her frisbee in the water as a reward. Again, this is a fairly remote and uncrowded spot. Goldens are more mellow than Labs generally, but I really couldn’t do much real fishing with Cass until she was 4 yrs. old. She meant well as a pup, but…. So my advise early on is to go out thinking ‘dog training’ instead of fishing, then after a couple years you can start real fishing. YMMV of course !                                                                 jc

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Penny, There is no such thing as a good fishing dog.

No kidding.  Mine has a terrible time with her knots – no thumbs – and insists on using San Juan Worms…

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       I am getting a Golden Retriever pup in one week and I want him to be a good fishing dog.  His father, "B", is horrible.  He has learned that my fly is what catches the fish, therefore he followes it swimming downstream.  Please help me teach my dog to be a good, mello fishing dog.  

I wonder if a Golden Retriever’s coat acts like marabou when it’s sunk?   I have two field-bred springers.  As much as I’d like to take them everywhere with me (I used to take them to my office before I changed teaching jobs–not the dogs’ fault <g), they’d seriously upset the calm, contemplative quality that enlightened and highly evolved flyfishers demand in their streamside environment.   Cheers, and happy training, David

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Penny, There is no such thing as a good fishing dog. No kidding.  Mine has a terrible time with her knots – no thumbs – and insists on using San Juan Worms…

On the other hand, depending on the color and length of their hair, they might make good flytying material. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Get an airedale! Because my eyes are not so good, he ties on my flies. He’s just beginning to learn to double haul.5

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No kidding.  Mine has a terrible time with her knots – no thumbs – and insists on using San Juan Worms…

And you try persuading them to accept C&R… Andrew

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No kidding.  Mine has a terrible time with her knots – no thumbs – and insists on using San Juan Worms… And you try persuading them to accept C&R… Andrew

forget Catch and Release, I’d be happy if my dog would "Fetch and Release"…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        I am getting a Golden Retriever pup in one week and I want him to be a good fishing dog.  His father, "B", is horrible.  He has learned that my fly is what catches the fish, therefore he followes it swimming downstream.  Please help me teach my dog to be a good, mello fishing dog.                                  Thank you,                                     Penny Acklen   Hi Penny-      Come to the Amazon with us. When the pirahna grab is in full swing teach your pup to fetch a stick. He’ll learn to admire your flies from a distance. It might be easier to simply beat it about the head with a striped bass   All kidding aside, retriever’s are pretty smart and you should be able to train the pup pretty easily. A long lead and a choke collar might make a lasting impression. As you found out, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.   -Ralph —

We’ve got two labs and my wife deals with one, while I deal with the other.   They do pretty well, however we’ve had trouble with the younger one wanting to bite into the fish if you’re not careful.   The other one investigates but doesn’t attempt anything else. We use pinch collars instead of choke collars and find them very effective.   We just keep the leash attached while we’re fishing for the first little while and correct them as needed.    After they settle down a bit, we can generally remove the leads and they’ll stay with us pretty well.   Most of the time, we can get them to lie down and wait on us to move upstream.    Of course, still being pups (the oldest one is 15 months), we have to give them a little leeway once in awhile and let them romp around in the water a bit. As with most endeavors, I think the best advice is to simply practice patience and realize that you won’t always have full control.   When this happens, we stop fishing for a bit and work with them on leads to get them back on track (or we take turns fishing while the other works the dogs). Hope this helps.. Del Duncan

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As much as I would love to have my dogs accompany me on fishing trips, I must agree with one respondent who recommended leaving them home.  In addition to all the stuff they can get caught in (old hooks, etc.), there are two experiences I have had in the past which have led me to leave my dogs home.  The first was when one of my older dogs was with me and slipped down a steep bank on some sticks and rubble, disappearing completely underwater for an instant before returning to the surface to hurriedly swim to the bank of a fortunately slow stream.  We were both badly shaken, and fortunately the hole she fell into was deep enough that she didn’t hit anything and she wasn’t hurt.  On another trip, this same dog was behind me and was accidently snagged with a low backcast.  She was snagged in the flank (fortunately not in an eye) and the day ended there. Again, I would love to bring my dogs along with me on fishing trips, but I firmly believe it is in their best interest to be left (well cared for) at home.

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        I am getting a Golden Retriever pup in one week and I want him to be a good fishing dog.  His father, "B", is horrible.  He has learned that my fly is what catches the fish, therefore he followes it swimming downstream.  Please help me teach my dog to be a good, mello fishing dog.                                   Thank you,                                      Penny Acklen

Response:

        I am getting a Golden Retriever pup in one week and I want him to be a good fishing dog.  His father, "B", is horrible.  He has learned that my fly is what catches the fish, therefore he followes it swimming downstream.  Please help me teach my dog to be a good, mello fishing dog.                                   Thank you,                                      Penny Acklen

   Unless you are fishing for salmon or something large that has to be turned in the water, teach him to sit quietly on the bank near you, but an unruly dog at lake or stream side is a real hastle — not only for you but for others.  I realize that this is no advice, but too often I see people "out for the day" who ruin it for themselves and others by bringing a dog.                                  Not meaning any disrespect,                                     Chuck

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       I am getting a Golden Retriever pup in one week and I want him to be a good fishing dog.  His father, "B", is horrible.  He has learned that my fly is what catches the fish, therefore he followes it swimming downstream.  Please help me teach my dog to be a good, mello fishing dog.                                  Thank you,                                     Penny Acklen

   Hi Penny-       Come to the Amazon with us. When the pirahna grab is in full swing teach your pup to fetch a stick. He’ll learn to admire your flies from a distance. It might be easier to simply beat it about the head with a striped bass    All kidding aside, retriever’s are pretty smart and you should be able to train the pup pretty easily. A long lead and a choke collar might make a lasting impression. As you found out, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.    -Ralph —

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Penny, There is no such thing as a good fishing dog. I have been training dogs for years and I know! The only thing that really helps is to get the ’sit’ command burned into the animal. Put your bag on the ground and sit him near it, so he has a base and you can work out if he has moved. Sit him well back from the water’s edge – once the dog is wet you are in trouble! Pups are relatively easy to teach to sit – just sit him every time before he gets his food and he will get the idea really fast. Keep him sat for thirty seconds  before you let him eat (don’t do this on your best carpet the drooling saliva will ruin it). The key thing is to teach the dog that he has to sit until you tell him to do something else. If he gets the idea that he can wander off after a period of time you will have trouble with him later on. When you take him fishing, be prepared to devote some time to getting ashore and putting him back next to the bag if he wanders. If you let him away with it once you will have wasted all your earlier hard work. Pick him up and carry him back. When he is young and light, carry him back in your arms but upside down, legs in the air (most dogs hate this, big loss of face). Sit him, take hold of one of his jowls fairly lightly, look him straight in the eye and growl at him. Carry a supply of biscuits for when he gets it right and sits until told otherwise. Oh, and when you do tell him he can wander, make sure you go back to him to do it. If dogs get used to you calling them from afar, they anticipate. Once they start doing this, they will interpret almost anything as a call to come to you, including head scratching and catching a fish! You might recover your older dog by going fishing with a friend. One of you should try to catch a fish, the other one pounces on the dog when he moves and goes through the routine. Big confident dogs are a problem to discipline, but if you fold over their ear fur outermost and (gently) bite it, you will reduce most labs to a jellied heap. This is what their mother used to do to them when they were pups – again, big loss of face, go to the bottom of the pack etc. I have never managed to train a dog that would follow me along the bank without coming in yet, and would be interested to hear if anyone here has. Andrew

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Suggest you try just below the "Glory Hole," where Putah Creek exits Lake Berryessa, (that is to say, below the damn dam), fishing nymphs down and across the broken water, merrily, merrily.  Some years (10?) ago, I was fishing here in the rain on a cold day in midwinter, got skunked, but did see a lure-slinger  walking out with fish the size of my leg.  Wondered why he would kill such a fine trout, ‘less he was skared of it!  But I would be wary of anybody who tells you Putah Creek is a "Trophy Trout Stream."  It’s just the only semblance of a moving-water trout-type flyfishing option close-in to the Bay Area, and for that, I guess we must be grateful. Sorry to disagree but there are lots of folks (none tyros) who would classify Putah Creek a trophy fishery. Its a tailwater stream that holds many fish, many large, few  pushovers. I don’t know if that qualifies as a "trophy" fishery but it ain’t a muddy, put-and-take slough.

Last I heard, Putah was officially classified as a "Trophy Trout Stream" by the state of California.  This qualifies it for special environmental protection, and special fishing regs.  They stock "put and take" rainbows down in the Solano Lake end, and there is a resident population of browns and land locked steelhead living from the head of lake Solano to the dam at lake Berryessa.  I’ve never gotten one of the giants, but I’ve seen several trout over 25" there in the water.         Putah is an interesting creek.  From Berryessa to Solano it is a great peice of water.  Cold water, good oxygenation, nice holes large bouldered bottom providing plenty of pocket water.  Lake Solano is a big evaporation pond.  There is a dam at the lower end of the lake, and during the summer, in dry years, there is no flow from it.  I’ve found the stream below Solano bone dry in some summers.  In a wet year, the creek flows on and eventually spreads out and sinks into the ground in the middle of the Sacramento cosway.  When you drive from Davis to Sac across the cosway, look to your right across the rice fields.  There is a peculiar patch of trees and scrub.  That is the termination point of Putah creek!         It’s been a while since I lived in Cali, but Putah was my training ground.  Don’t badmouth it just because your not competent enough to catch any of the multitude of giant (but extremely selective) trout that live there. Enjoy this gift of nature and preserve it for future generations. . Lenny Bloksberg . .

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writes: Suggest you try just below the "Glory Hole," where Putah Creek exits Lake Berryessa, (that is to say, below the damn dam), fishing nymphs down and across the broken water, merrily, merrily.  Some years (10?) ago, I was fishing here in the rain on a cold day in midwinter, got skunked, but did see a lure-slinger  walking out with fish the size of my leg.  Wondered why he would kill such a fine trout, ‘less he was skared of it!  But I would be wary of anybody who tells you Putah Creek is a "Trophy Trout Stream."  It’s just the only semblance of a moving-water trout-type flyfishing option close-in to the Bay Area, and for that, I guess we must be grateful.

Response:

writes: Suggest you try just below the "Glory Hole," where Putah Creek exits Lake Berryessa, (that is to say, below the damn dam), fishing nymphs down and across the broken water, merrily, merrily.  Some years (10?) ago, I was fishing here in the rain on a cold day in midwinter, got skunked, but did see a lure-slinger  walking out with fish the size of my leg.  Wondered why he would kill such a fine trout, ‘less he was skared of it!  But I would be wary of anybody who tells you Putah Creek is a "Trophy Trout Stream."  It’s just the only semblance of a moving-water trout-type flyfishing option close-in to the Bay Area, and for that, I guess we must be grateful.

Sorry to disagree but there are lots of folks (none tyros) who would classify Putah Creek a trophy fishery. Its a tailwater stream that holds many fish, many large, few  pushovers. I don’t know if that qualifies as a "trophy" fishery but it ain’t a muddy, put-and-take slough.

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I hear Putah creek is a trophy trout stream.  I fished it about 1 month ago with some success on 18-20 prince nymphs.  I saw no fish over 8". Steam side brush made casting near impossible.  There were few pockets from which to cast from.  Wading was difficult due to the changing deapth of water and varying stream flows throughout the length of the creek starting just outside of Winters.  Does anyone know how and where to fish this water?

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