Question:

Ever heard of a test being run? Any body with two sets of fins and a GPS could run a test for us.

Next time I’m out with my Force Fins, I’ll just have the water skier hold the GPS for me.  That way I can watch where I’m going bruce h

Response:

I need a new pair of fins. Although I find it hard to justify paying a hundred bucks for a pair of fins, Bill’s post was pretty convincing and yours clinched it. I HATE getting blown across a lake. Willi

Ditto.  Sounds like my next purchase. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

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I’m impressed.  I always assumed it was the float tube design that sucked, maybe it was just the caddis fins. I eagerly await daytripper’s test results, but I may jump the gun. Thanks much, Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need a new pair of fins. Although I find it hard to justify paying a hundred bucks for a pair of fins, Bill’s post was pretty convincing and yours clinched it. I HATE getting blown across a lake. Willi Ditto.  Sounds like my next purchase. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Fix underscore in address to reply

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Dick, We sell them one a time for 50% of the cost of a pair. Just call our USA toll free number and tell us what size and right or left fin? We carry the Original and the Adjustable in black only. 1-800-400-0359 We can ship one to you tomorrow any where in the USA. Do feel alone, this happens all the time. There is nothing like the Force Fin for float tubes and pontoon boats. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

Thanks Bill, I’ve become accustomed to fishing without boots – just using a neoprene booty which is pretty comfortable for long days on the lake.   In an another post "Bruiser" indicated originals fit better for this application than the adjustables? Although it isn’t often, I have had occassions where it would have been an advantage to be wearing boots – so I’m wondering if the adjustable model is just for boots or is it as comfortable as the original without boots?  And of course, is there enough slack in the adjustment to accomodate both modes? Thanks for your time, – Dick

Response:

I need a new pair of fins. Although I find it hard to justify paying a hundred bucks for a pair of fins, Bill’s post was pretty convincing and yours clinched it. I HATE getting blown across a lake. Willi Ditto.  Sounds like my next purchase. I’m impressed.  I always assumed it was the float tube design that sucked, maybe it was just the caddis fins. I eagerly await daytripper’s test results, but I may jump the gun.

Don’t hold your breath. It’ll be some time before I can do tube time trials with my Force Fins… fwiw, though, I don’t think the Force Fins are all that special wrt to making good time, but they’re the only fins I’ve ever owned that I can walk *forward* in while wearing a tube without inevitably doing a face plant. They’re definitely worth it for that, though there is that risk of a tether failure losing one to the deep… /daytripper (T-13 Hours)

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I cant remember exactly when it was…maybe around 1990, the maker of force fins was in the process of developing fins that float.  I haven’t shopped for much fishing gear in last few years so I’m not sure if there are any on the market Go Oregon Ducks…The  Big Green Scoring Machine

Response:

I am a believer. Force Fins are the best.     I agree. If you do much float tubing where I live, you are going to find yourself out on the water when the wind picks up to 40-60 mph, and as often as not it will blow you away from your put-in spot. When I used Caddis fins I was unable to overcome the wind, and I usually ended up walking back from the far side of the lake. With Force fins I can power my way into a pretty stiff headwind and save myself a three mile walk (usually through a marsh, wearing neoprenes and carrying a tube, fins, and rod).

I need a new pair of fins. Although I find it hard to justify paying a hundred bucks for a pair of fins, Bill’s post was pretty convincing and yours clinched it. I HATE getting blown across a lake. Willi

Response:

I am a believer. Force Fins are the best.

    I agree. If you do much float tubing where I live, you are going to find yourself out on the water when the wind picks up to 40-60 mph, and as often as not it will blow you away from your put-in spot. When I used Caddis fins I was unable to overcome the wind, and I usually ended up walking back from the far side of the lake. With Force fins I can power my way into a pretty stiff headwind and save myself a three mile walk (usually through a marsh, wearing neoprenes and carrying a tube, fins, and rod).

Response:

Any body with two sets of fins and a GPS could run a test for us.

Yeah. That’ll happen.

Response:

Has anyone done any testing to compare these fins.  I noticed the other day that my hand held GPS will show the speed, even for slow things like belly boats and turtles.  I checked out my pontoon/kayak boat and found I could paddle it at a max of about 2.5mph.  I’m sure belly boats are slower, but I wonder what the relative speed is with different fins. Ever heard of a test being run? Any body with two sets of fins and a GPS could run a test for us. Thanks Chas

…  snip … Do[n't] feel alone, this happens all the time. There is nothing like the Force Fin for float tubes and pontoon boats. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

Fix underscore in address to reply

Response:

   good vibes to you

As long as they’re not in the doc’s hands. <g Good luck DT. — Charlie…

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Hello All, I use to do lots of float tubing but in the last decade I have done more fishing from small boats. Last spring, I took my wife out for her first time ever float tubing. We were both in fairly similar V-boats but I gave her the Force Fins($100) and I had a pair of Caddis fins($40). I felt with our difference in "horse power" that it would be about an equal race. Well, I could never keep up with her and I tried so hard to catch her I almost killed myself. I was "steaming" to the back of a small lake to get to a fishing spot where a small stream comes in. I made a straight line and kicked with everything I had. My wife would come by me and then make circles around me, talking all the time about how fun this was and I still could not "leave her in the dust" ??? I am a believer. Force Fins are the best. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone done any testing to compare these fins.  I noticed the other day that my hand held GPS will show the speed, even for slow things like belly boats and turtles.  I checked out my pontoon/kayak boat and found I could paddle it at a max of about 2.5mph.  I’m sure belly boats are slower, but I wonder what the relative speed is with different fins. Ever heard of a test being run? Any body with two sets of fins and a GPS could run a test for us. Thanks Chas …  snip … Do[n't] feel alone, this happens all the time. There is nothing like the Force Fin for float tubes and pontoon boats. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com Fix underscore in address to reply

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FWIW, I really like the adjustable Force Fins. They fit better over wading boots.  The regular Force fins seem to fit better if you just wear a small neoprene bootie. bruce h

Response:

Hi Dick, We sell them one a time for 50% of the cost of a pair. Just call our USA toll free number and tell us what size and right or left fin? We carry the Original and the Adjustable in black only. 1-800-400-0359 We can ship one to you tomorrow any where in the USA. Do feel alone, this happens all the time. There is nothing like the Force Fin for float tubes and pontoon boats. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jump’n cheese & crackers, got all muddy! I bought a pair of force fins many, many years ago, and haven’t paid much attention to new products for just about as long.  After a gazillion near misses of loosing my fins, (force fins sink), I finally lost one.  In case your wondering, yes, I did have them tethered, and no, that wasn’t good enough.  Somehow slipped it’s snap  in the middle of a fight with a 20" rainbow.  I think the fish did it. Anyhoo, onto why I’m writing: Criminy, those fins got expensive!  I like them a lot but fer cry’n out loud, when I bought mine I’m sure it was less than fifty bucks. Depending on the model, they want nearly three times that today. The two models I’m looking at are the originals and the Adjustable Deluxe.  The least expensive Adjustable Deluxe pair I could find was from Cabella’s at $125.  Replacing the originals is $100. I know I haven’t stayed up with the latest and greatest (I bet I look like an antique dealer when I go fishing) so I’m wondering if the Adjustable force fins are worth the dough? Anyone out there had experience with both? Lastly, is there anyone out there with a single medium size original force fin with buckle on the right side? Thanks, – Dick

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Jump’n cheese & crackers, got all muddy!

        what the fuck do you think this is—the mickey mouse club? wayno

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Jump’n cheese & crackers, got all muddy!    what the fuck do you think this is—the mickey mouse club? wayno

hey, Boy Lawyer! I thought there was a cardinal rule among people of your occupation about never asking a question unless you already know the answer.

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Jump’n cheese & crackers, got all muddy!        what the fuck do you think this is—the mickey mouse club? wayno hey, Boy Lawyer! I thought there was a cardinal rule among people of your occupation about never asking a question unless you already know the answer.

        hey, man, i will bust your ass for that response…if you promise me that you will get through this *last* bit of surgery in good shape!         good vibes to you, from your friend in the old north state wayno

Response:

Jump’n cheese & crackers, got all muddy! I bought a pair of force fins many, many years ago, and haven’t paid much attention to new products for just about as long.  After a gazillion near misses of loosing my fins, (force fins sink), I finally lost one.  In case your wondering, yes, I did have them tethered, and no, that wasn’t good enough.  Somehow slipped it’s snap  in the middle of a fight with a 20" rainbow.  I think the fish did it. Anyhoo, onto why I’m writing: Criminy, those fins got expensive!  I like them a lot but fer cry’n out loud, when I bought mine I’m sure it was less than fifty bucks.   Depending on the model, they want nearly three times that today.   The two models I’m looking at are the originals and the Adjustable Deluxe.  The least expensive Adjustable Deluxe pair I could find was from Cabella’s at $125.  Replacing the originals is $100. I know I haven’t stayed up with the latest and greatest (I bet I look like an antique dealer when I go fishing) so I’m wondering if the Adjustable force fins are worth the dough? Anyone out there had experience with both? Lastly, is there anyone out there with a single medium size original force fin with buckle on the right side? Thanks, – Dick

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Question:

I’m considering purchasing a sit-on-top kayak for flyfishing the flats and marshes on the Texas Coast.  The model I’ve been lusting after is the Ocean Kayak Frenzy.  Does anybody have any input re: fishing from these kayaks, or any type of kayak?  

I have a Wilderness System’s Ride and it’s great to fish from. I don’t think I could tip it over if I wanted to. — Charlie…

Response:

My experience with SOT’s is that they are wet and you need to wear neoprene on cool days. I have fished from my Folbot double kayak with OK results. Too bad inflatables are deflatables. I am now looking at the Kiwi Lobo and the Poke Boat.  Duck hunters like the Poke, so it is probably the most commodious.  However, the Lobo is supposed to be way nicer to paddle. Ken (to reply via email remove "zz" from address)

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I recently purchased a Cobra Explorer Sit on Top.  These sit on tops are great and I already been doing very well both in salt and fresh water with it.   Damian NuWave Tackle Innovative products designed by fishermen for fishermen Fly Tying / Rod Building Equipment, Tackle… http://www.nuwavetackle.com/

Response:

I’ve been using a Prism by Perception for about four months now and am pleased with the overall performance. It tracks well,is quiet, and quick. Did an overnighter float from below Austin, Texas to Bastrop and was pleasantly surprised by just how many unnecessary items I could fit into the two large hatches. …downsides: The bottom of the boat where your feet rest always has water in it. easily two inches of water. Can’t stand up on it. If you have decent balance, you can stand up to cast with a Malibu 2, but try paddling one of those tankers. I’ve also seen the front end dip under water when paddling with and riding some small waves kicked up by the wind. and this is on a lake, no telling how it would do in surf.   Casting sitting down is not a problem, I just can’t cast as far. It’s fun to fish from  and( a decent sized fish will drag you around), to me, the space in the hatches outweighs the water at my feet. I’ve taken to placing a couple of those car-top foam blocks under the footpegs… keeps the feet dry. Good luck, PZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m considering purchasing a sit-on-top kayak for flyfishing the flats and marshes on the Texas Coast.  The model I’ve been lusting after is the Ocean Kayak Frenzy.  Does anybody have any input re: fishing from these kayaks, or any type of kayak?  Has anybody tried casting from these kayaks? The Frenzy is appealing to me because (1) it is relatively inexpensive ($400); (2) it looks quite versatile (can be used in whitewater and the surf as well); and (3) it appears to be easily transported. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, RD

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m considering purchasing a sit-on-top kayak for flyfishing the flats and marshes on the Texas Coast.  The model I’ve been lusting after is the Ocean Kayak Frenzy.  Does anybody have any input re: fishing from these kayaks, or any type of kayak?  Has anybody tried casting from these kayaks? The Frenzy is appealing to me because (1) it is relatively inexpensive ($400); (2) it looks quite versatile (can be used in whitewater and the surf as well); and (3) it appears to be easily transported. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, RD

Talking it over with the SO (she says the only real advantage to the Frenzy is smaller females can rack it easily, but I agree it is more river-friendly, FWIW) and another kayaking friend, we agree with your points 1, 2, and 3, but have you looked at the O.K. Scrambler?  A little bigger, more stable – done the Yucatan, Alaska, Keys, Texas Coast, etc. on one, you can even easily dive from one – but again, not quite as easy handling on a river.  Have you talked to Southwest Paddle Sports?  They have a website I think.  Talk to Patty and tell her Eliz and the gang from Ft. Worth set ya.   HTH? TC, R

Response:

I’m considering purchasing a sit-on-top kayak for flyfishing the flats and marshes on the Texas Coast.  The model I’ve been lusting after is the Ocean Kayak Frenzy.  Does anybody have any input re: fishing from these kayaks, or any type of kayak?  Has anybody tried casting from these kayaks? The Frenzy is appealing to me because (1) it is relatively inexpensive ($400); (2) it looks quite versatile (can be used in whitewater and the surf as well); and (3) it appears to be easily transported. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, RD

Response:

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

I know nothing of kayaks but so long as you’re soliciting feedback please allow me to congratulate you on one of your quips that has long been one of my favorite quotes: When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.                                   -Raoul Duke- — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

sitting in (a kayak not music) has to be more stable (secure not horse) than sitting on top ( boats not se…..never mind) john (I’m fishin out of a keowee) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m considering purchasing a sit-on-top kayak for flyfishing the flats and marshes on the Texas Coast.  The model I’ve been lusting after is the Ocean Kayak Frenzy.  Does anybody have any input re: fishing from these kayaks, or any type of kayak?  Has anybody tried casting from these kayaks? The Frenzy is appealing to me because (1) it is relatively inexpensive ($400); (2) it looks quite versatile (can be used in whitewater and the surf as well); and (3) it appears to be easily transported. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, RD

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Question:

This group makes me think about where things are going in our sport. I like to pick out trends I see, fantasize about them and follow them to their extreme conclusions.  Below is one of the perverted, but maybe not too far fetched, scenarios I came up with. Jim and Bob arrived at the Neiman Marcus Orvis shop and met up with Rod, their guide for the day.  They were looking forward for a chance to get away from it all and rip some lips on the famous Turquoise river. A short ride took them to the base of the massive dam. While they were waiting for the Ranger directing traffic to give them the OK to launch, Rod started checking out their equipment. It was the latest and still showroom fresh. "I’m going to replace that 20X tippet you have on for some 15X. 20X is good enough for the little 10 or 15 pounders but when we get into some good fish you’ll be glad you have the 15X," He said. "What’s the new, hot fly?" Jim asked. "Rod’s Killer Krill (patent pending)," Rod replied, "Since they engineered the krill to live in fresh water and stocked the reservoir with them, that’s all the hogs will eat. They won’t even open their mouths for any of the insects that fishermen used to imitate. The fly is tied with Natural Scent Dubbing, so it smells and tastes just like krill, as well as looks like it. It’s the only fly you’ll need." The Ranger signaled to them that their turn had come and they quickly launched their boat and proceeded down stream. Rod skillfully maneuvered the craft to maintain the mandated 20′ between them and other boats. After a short drift, they arrived at the first hole and Rod switched to auto pilot to maintain distance and keep their place in line. He then started his instruction, "These fish are something special. By combining DNA from extinct species, they engineered a Super Trout that fights like an Atlantic Salmon, grows huge like a King and has the beauty of a Greenback Trout. They’re sterile, so all they think about is food and with the dam regulated temperatures and flows, all they do is eat all day, everyday." "They line up all across the bottom, gobbling up every krill that passes. All you need to do is cast up stream and with your Indi-glasses you’ll be able to follow the electro-indicator in your fly as it drifts along the bottom.  When your fly disappears, set the hook because it’s been eaten." The guys started casting.  Jim had fished a little when he was a kid and was having some trouble because he kept fighting the rod by trying to cast on his own. Rod said, "Just let the rod and reel do their job, quit fighting them. Throw a short length of line behind you, hold the rod straight up and let its molecular memory do the rest.  The reel will keep feeding out line and when your cast is far enough, drop the rod tip." The advice helped Jim and after his third decent cast, he got the first hook up. Rod cheered him on, praising Jim’s skill while knowing full well that with the 100 lb. test 15X tippet and the "smart" rod, Jim could land a truck. Fishing was great, as usual, and either Jim or Bob had on a fish every 20 or so casts. They made slow, steady progress down stream, filling in the spot vacated by the boat just below them. After releasing another 30 pounder, Rod reminded them, "This is a restricted take, Trophy river. The first fish caught under 4 pounds must be kept and the fishing for that angler stopped for the day." Rod knew that the state only stocked "Super" trout over 4 pounds in the upper river but in "Keeper Hole", just above the take out, they stocked plenty of old fashion stockers. This was a perfect arrangement for the outfitters, their clients could C&R hogs for a couple of hours, then catch their dinner just before take out. Things, as usual, went according to plan. Jim and Bob caught lots of fish that Rod recorded on Stereo Tape before releasing them. Jim and Bob each caught their dinner and Rod got his tip. That evening while eating their trout dinner and drinking their favorite tiny-mini-micro brew, Trout Sweat, Jim turned to Bob and said, "You know, it just doesn’t get any better than this." Willi

Response:

Willi Thats not a fantasy; its a nightmare. But you do have the writer’s touch. How about another scenario;  one where Jim and Bob remember how the fisheries Dr. Frankensteins had been making great progress on the supertrout, and Bob and Jim had even caught a few in the experimental river, but the whole technology had been lost when some crazed old coot from an island somewhere near Seattle had burned their lab to the ground, hunted down every last one of the technologists, but finally succumbed to the authorities screaming something about deconstructing the meniscus. Dave

Response:

Actually, the guys at Macrohard are working on a virtual reality fly fishing kit. You can plug it in any time,any where. Choose the type of fishing you want (small stream, lake, saltwater, etc.), level of difficulty, wind direction/speed, if the fish are easy or hard to land, etc. The game comes with a virtual fly rod that you wave around…if you present the fly well and you tie your virtual fly onto your virtual tippet ok, the virtual fish will take. What a kick. Also, you can choose if you want Cindy Crawford as your guide. If you choose Cindy, she gives you a kiss everytime you land a fish. You get the sensation of the fish fighting through the virtual rod. Sorry, I couldn’t resist. Bob E., Rochester, NY

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What is ya? Ignernt?

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Question:

I don’t know why the thought of asking the group this question didn’t occur to me until now, but I’m supremely confident that you all (that would be y’all) can set me straight. I’m not sure, but I seem to be putting too much power into my casts.   On my forward cast, the line & leader will occasionally straighten out then recoil into a less than beautiful wiggle on the surface.   When I concentrate (admittedly my weak point), I can lower my rod tip as the line goes forward and that seems to take the jerk out of it (at the other end, that is). This is difficult to control, though; and sometimes I take away too much and the leader never straightens.   Still, I think this is only coping with the symptom, not the cause. Am I in fact overpowering the cast?   Do I just need to ease up a little on the forward stroke?   What else could I be doing wrong?   At present, this is my major flaw in presentation.   I have no problem with practice, practice, practice; but I fear I may develop worse habits if I continue to practice a bad motion. Joe F.

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Could be your line is one weight too light for the rod or your leader is too short OR the leader(tippet) is too light for the fly you’re casting…. Without seeing you cast, it’s tough to diagnose….kinda like tellin a mechanic "every time I drive my car it makes a sound like WHIRR WHIRR CLICK CLAK…do you know what it is????" I’d try by process of elimination to determine if any of the above work for you. Larry #:)#

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Joe F. writes:

<<I’m not sure, but I seem to be putting too much power into my casts.   On my forward cast, the line & leader will occasionally straighten out then recoil into a less than beautiful wiggle on the surface. Could be you *are* overpowering your casts.  I had (and still do a lot of time) the same problem,  I believe it was Peter Charles that told me to try putting my extended index finger on the grip instead of my thumb.  It worked wonderfully.  It seems it is difficult to overpower your cast with your hand so placed. Give it a try and come back and report, or else wait for Peter to chime in.  <g  He’ll have the answer for sure. Dave LaCourse

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I don’t know why the thought of asking the group this question didn’t occur to me until now, but I’m supremely confident that you all (that would be y’all) can set me straight. I’m not sure, but I seem to be putting too much power into my casts.   On my forward cast, the line & leader will occasionally straighten out then recoil into a less than beautiful wiggle on the surface.  

You are "over powering" your cast but if you’re fishing dries, "over powering" is one technique to help get a drag free drift. That "wiggle" on the surface is good (as long as it isn’t too excessive) because it will allow for a longer drag free float than with a perfectly straight leader. Willi

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I also cast with my index finger on the grip and this works nicely for me.  One of the easiest things to do when trying to make that little extra further cast is to apply too much power to the rod.  Good timing seems more important to me when making these "longer" casts.  And as you mentioned; Practice, practice, practice, and listen to what many of the regular posters suggest here~~They really know their stuff. Jeff Boks Fly Fishing~~~~~Just Do It

Response:

Joe: You’re getting some good advice.  I’ll add that even a perfect cast will have leader recoil if you check up on the rod tip hard at the end of the forward stroke.  That’s why it doesn’t happen when you lower the rod tip.  But as Willi has noted, that is exactly what you want to do if you want all those curves on the water to give you a better dry fly float. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know why the thought of asking the group this question didn’t occur to me until now, but I’m supremely confident that you all (that would be y’all) can set me straight. I’m not sure, but I seem to be putting too much power into my casts.   On my forward cast, the line & leader will occasionally straighten out then recoil into a less than beautiful wiggle on the surface.   When I concentrate (admittedly my weak point), I can lower my rod tip as the line goes forward and that seems to take the jerk out of it (at the other end, that is). This is difficult to control, though; and sometimes I take away too much and the leader never straightens.   Still, I think this is only coping with the symptom, not the cause. Am I in fact overpowering the cast?   Do I just need to ease up a little on the forward stroke?   What else could I be doing wrong?   At present, this is my major flaw in presentation.   I have no problem with practice, practice, practice; but I fear I may develop worse habits if I continue to practice a bad motion. Joe F.

Response:

Could be you *are* overpowering your casts.  I had (and still do a lot of time) the same problem,  I believe it was Peter Charles that told me to try putting my extended index finger on the grip instead of my thumb.  It worked wonderfully.  It seems it is difficult to overpower your cast with your hand so placed.

Dave (and Pete): that is indeed a sure way to under-power a casting stroke. Unfortunately, it’s also a sure way to develop RSI in your wrist and forearm. There are less injurious ways to deal with a power & timing problem… As for the resulting wiggles providing a benefit: better to learn the proper, bread-and-butter wiggle-free cast, then learn a proper "pile" cast for when it’s needed. A good "pile" will one hell of a lot of wiggles into the line and provide a much longer drag-free drift than an overpowered cast ever will. /daytripper

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No wonder he doesn’t fish anymore.  He’s gone blind. – Mu – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<I had this problem until I started wanking with the other hand to compensate….hell I was getting a 22 inch forearm. Is that why they call you "Stubby"?  <g Dave & co., I don’t understand T-Bonics.  Please explain using clinical terms. It’s what he became a master at before becoming a master angler. — Charlie…

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Mu: <<No wonder he doesn’t fish anymore.  He’s gone blind. Brings new meaning to the term "catch and kill". <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

Al:  is it really you?  man it’s good to see you back.  If you get a chance, drop me a note as to your whereabouts these days. And to the newer ROFFians, Al has been a great help to many of us with advice on all topics.  Not to worry, Al – that stretch of the _____ you put me on a couple years ago in M_____ will always be safe with me! Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Joe, For years I had trouble with my casting and practice did not seem fix it because I was doing exactly like you were concerned about – practicing my mistakes. One day I was testing rods at a fly fishing show and a gentleman walked over and offered a bit of advise. In ten minutes I knew what I was doing wrong (it took a couple of years to permanently correct the problem). That man was Mel Kreiger. I suggest you invest one hour with a competent professional. If you don’t know of one in your area call the Federation of Fly Fishers at 406-585-7592 and ask them for the name of a Certified Instructor near you. Good luck & … Tight Lines – Al Beatty http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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Aww…..TBone… So it’s not true?  In the past you used to boast about being able to switch hands without dropping a stroke…..or were you talking about GOLF then, too???? =8^)

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T-Bone: <<I had this problem until I started wanking with the other hand to compensate….hell I was getting a 22 inch forearm. Is that why they call you "Stubby"?  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

T-Bone: <<I had this problem until I started wanking with the other hand to compensate….hell I was getting a 22 inch forearm. Is that why they call you "Stubby"?  <g

Dave & co., I don’t understand T-Bonics.  Please explain using clinical terms. Mu

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T-Bone: <<I had this problem until I started wanking with the other hand to compensate….hell I was getting a 22 inch forearm. Is that why they call you "Stubby"?  <g Dave & co., I don’t understand T-Bonics.  Please explain using clinical terms.

Man, am I ashamed of starting the thread that led down this road!    d:-o Joe F.

Response:

I’m not sure, but I seem to be putting too much power into my casts.

I had this problem until I started wanking with the other hand to compensate….hell I was getting a 22 inch forearm. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Hi Joe, For years I had trouble with my casting and practice did not seem fix it because I was doing exactly like you were concerned about – practicing my mistakes. One day I was testing rods at a fly fishing show and a gentleman walked over and offered a bit of advise. In ten minutes I knew what I was doing wrong (it took a couple of years to permanently correct the problem). That man was Mel Kreiger. I suggest you invest one hour with a competent professional. If you don’t know of one in your area call the Federation of Fly Fishers at 406-585-7592 and ask them for the name of a Certified Instructor near you. Good luck & … Tight Lines – Al Beatty http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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For years I had trouble with my casting and practice did not seem fix it because I was doing exactly like you were concerned about – practicing my mistakes. One day I was testing rods at a fly fishing show and a gentleman walked over and offered a bit of advise. In ten minutes I knew what I was doing wrong (it took a couple of years to permanently correct the problem). That man was Mel Kreiger.

I concur.  I recently got a free casting class with the Becks and found out a couple of problems with my casting.  I always had a hook in my line when I cast and found out it was because I was twisting my wrist.  I also learned how to double haul, ect.  An hour class and a little practice makes all of the difference in the world. Warren

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I don’t know why the thought of asking the group this question didn’t occur to me until now, but I’m supremely confident that you all (that would be y’all) can set me straight. I’m not sure, but I seem to be putting too much power into my casts.   On my forward cast, the line & leader will occasionally straighten out then recoil into a less than beautiful wiggle on the surface.

Thanks to all for the advice; all of which sounds pretty good.   I’ll add that my overall problem is probably consistency.   I can cast pretty well on occasion, using roll casts, reach casts, and even throwing a nice straight line.   Sometimes, though, it just ain’t working; and finesse and delicacy act as if they don’t know me.   With my relative inexperience, I have difficulty figuring out why.   For one thing, I just need to fish more often. I’ve been "in the groove" a few times when my touch and timing were right on, and it was a beautiful thing. I’d have posted this thanks sooner, but too much good advice was pouring in. Thanks again. Joe F.

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A natural hook? And I’ve been trying to learn how to fish around corners?

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May not be the root of the problem but try releasing a loop of line in front of the reel toward the end of your forward cast. That will prevent some recoil. Steve

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know why the thought of asking the group this question didn’t occur to me until now, but I’m supremely confident that you all (that would be y’all) can set me straight. I’m not sure, but I seem to be putting too much power into my casts.   On my forward cast, the line & leader will occasionally straighten out then recoil into a less than beautiful wiggle on the surface.   When I concentrate (admittedly my weak point), I can lower my rod tip as the line goes forward and that seems to take the jerk out of it (at the other end, that is). This is difficult to control, though; and sometimes I take away too much and the leader never straightens.   Still, I think this is only coping with the symptom, not the cause. Am I in fact overpowering the cast?   Do I just need to ease up a little on the forward stroke?   What else could I be doing wrong?   At present, this is my major flaw in presentation.   I have no problem with practice, practice, practice; but I fear I may develop worse habits if I continue to practice a bad motion. Joe F.

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Joe, I’m not the expert but here are two things that have helped me. First, taking out a whole day and fly fishing for hours on end helped me find a groove. Consistency is my problem too as I typically only fish for short periods of time when I can get away here and there.  Next, have your wife photograph (hi-speed) or videotape your stroke.  There are plenty of things which become apparent when you are watching from outside of your own body. For example, I found out that instead of drifting the rod backwards with the line after the power stroke, I was letting the tip drop below the fly line.   Of course you’ll need the discipline to consciously adjust your motions based on what you see in the video.  This is not so easy to do because unless you are used to interacting with yourself, it quickly gets boring.  I suppose having a casting instructor by your side, who engages you on a one-to-one level is of great benefit in that regard. Mu, waiting for the risers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks to all for the advice; all of which sounds pretty good.   I’ll add that my overall problem is probably consistency.   I can cast pretty well on occasion, using roll casts, reach casts, and even throwing a nice straight line.   Sometimes, though, it just ain’t working; and finesse and delicacy act as if they don’t know me.   With my relative inexperience, I have difficulty figuring out why.   For one thing, I just need to fish more often. I’ve been "in the groove" a few times when my touch and timing were right on, and it was a beautiful thing.

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The best thing to do is to take a casting lesson from someone you know who is good, or from a good pro. The postal diagnosis of casting faults may be likened to correspondence courses in brain surgery, and the results are likely to be similarly catastrophic. An absolutely brilliant caster and fly-fisher ( the two are not necessarily synonymous ) once told me that one should practice until one could cast a perfectly straight line and leader, and having achieved this, to never ever do it again.  This applies to dry fly fishing of course, where a slack wavy leader is far better than a straight  tight one. Practising is only of use if you are practising correctly, practising incorrectly will usually result in you acquiring muscle memory for bad habits, which are then extremely difficult to get rid of.  Take a lesson and save yourself a lot of grief. TL MC

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        which leads me to ponder:  what is the sound of one fish flopping? wayno the zen master – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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wayno writes:

<<which leads me to ponder:  what is the sound of one fish flopping? It goes sorta like this: "I didn’t do it, counselor.  I *swear* I didn’t do it.  I was in church.  They’re out to get me." davo

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Question:

you have your harness, you have your carabener(sp) you have your parachute with the long lanyard you might carry a couple more carabeners for a classic 3 bean’er attachment for lowering your self to the ground R. (repelling all the way down) Williams – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – a saw or better judgement

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a saw or better judgement

I recall that a self-rescue kit for tree landings was standard equipment among Tennessee/Georgia HG pilots when I flew there too many years ago. Consisted of one of those flexible-wire saws, a length of strong cord, some basic first-aid material and a whistle. may have been some other items, but it was along time ago. It was not for nothing that the local club is the ‘Tennessee Tree Toppers’, and yes, I qualified. Didn’t need the saw, though, ‘cos I fell straight out. Noel

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Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

A recent issue of paragliding magazine had just such a plan.  I don’t remember the exact issue but you can probably find out at the USHGA web site <http://www.ushga.org. — Forrest Keller

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Yes It is called "Tooth Floss" and comes in small boxes from the chemist. Strong enough to be dropped from the tree and haul up a climbing rope! Stewart Reid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

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a saw

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Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

Check out http://www.kurious.org/PG/treeresq.htm Thanks to Lowell Skoog. Floyd Rogers

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Hi from Dwayne, A box of Dental Floss and say 5 2ft long ropes in your harness pocket. The dental floss is used to pull up a heaver rope when you are stuck in a tree. The 2ft ropes are used to tie yourself or your glider to the tree. I started my hang gliding in Wellington in 1995 back flying with Grant Tatham and company. In Dallas Texas now – I hope to visit NZ again soon. Regards, Dwayne Sinclair.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

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Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

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a saw

or better judgement

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Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit? Here in the NW USA, we have lots and lots of trees.  Unfortunately,

sometimes instead of flying over them, we fly into them.  We have a couple of guys in our club who put on a tree rescue clinic.  They also have recommendations for tree rescue kits.  Our trees are very tall (200 feet) so we have to be prepared.  I don’t know much about tree life in New Zealand, but in the Eastern US, a lot of places only have 30 foot trees. Anyway, we have very long tested ropes, at least 100 foot long for out here. About pencil width. Some people fly with them, others leave it in the truck. I leave it in the truck and carry fishing line in my PG harness.  In the HG I don’t have as much of penetration problems, but maybe I should carry it there too. I think 20 lb fishing test line is good to get the rope up to you.  One trick I used is to run over the line with my truck. I know it sounds weird, but it makes the spool much smaller without damaging the integrity of the spool or the line. It fits into harness better that way. You should also have an extra carabiner, you should know how to do the Munter hitch to lower yourself down, use the bowline knot to tie yourself or stuff off.  A lot of guys bring like an eight foot strap to immediately tie oneself into the trunk of the tree so you don’t fall while you’re getting yourself together.  You can really tire yourself out holding onto the tree wating for help.  I think those are the main things. John Saltveit Oregon NW USA

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maybe supplies for a tree fort

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Question:

I tried the Demo and it is a lot like Trophy Bass. Since I own Trophy Bass and enjoy it I think I would definitely enjoy Trophy Rivers. I haven’t ordered it as of yet but I probably will before too long. It’s a fun way to spend an evening when you’re tired of tying flies <Grin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has any one tried the Trophy rivers fly fishing game?

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I tried the demo and was very impressed.  The Trophy Bass I & II games are supposed to be terriffic.  I was always hoping they would release a fly fishing cyber-angling (that’s their term) game. Enjoy, Josh I think the release day of the game is today, November 21. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Has any one tried the Trophy rivers fly fishing game?  

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It’s a fun way to spend an evening when you’re tired of tying flies <Grin

How could you ever get tired of tying flies? Bryce

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Question:

To what nefarious purpose will these stories be put? Is there compensation for the author or at least ego gratifying recognition? Len Hunter

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I’m starting a collection of fly-fishing stories.  I’d be interested in anything funny, exciting, unbelievable, thrilling, interesting, or just a little odd.  Just email your stories to me.  Please be as accurate in the story as possible. Thanks.

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This story is a fictional compound of several true incidents. Unfortunately, the angler of the lost fly rod was a very nice guy; nothing bad happened to the rude and obnoxious clients.    I knew I was in trouble within a few minutes of meeting the clients. They appeared at the outfitter in full dress–like officers in some weird flyfisherman’s army, brigadiers maybe or Protocol Officers.  In fact, they were arguing over the proper placement of their Backup Nipper. Top-to-bottom Orvis, Sage, Abel, etc.  If they had been paid by the logo we would all have been millionaires.   To be sure, their equipment was glorious.  Several flyrods each, with a lengthy discussion of which was most appropriate (the seven and the eight) and how many the raft could comfortably carry (we agreed on four each, with reservations on the guide’s part.) This despite the fact that we had already covered this ground in phone calls.  Beautiful tackle bags, unmarred. Boxes of flies, in large groups by nomenclature.  I was jealous, I must admit. Even so, I snuck some of my equipment back into the shuttle vehicle; I was a bit worried about payload.     I must say, this was unusual.  Though many of our clients are novices, we rarely see two anglers so obviously overequipped and underexperienced. It’s most usual to see the novice in the care of a more experienced angler. Also, we have no aversion to the inexperienced; our business is teaching, and that calls for patience and flexibility.  This level of confidence belied by the facts was worrisome, though; would the clients’ expectations ruin the trip? Could they cast to the bass, could they hook up at all?  We fish for ten to twelve hours; could inexperienced casters work for that long?  And would they blame me if any of these answers was ‘no’?   We also had to do a lot of preparation, which left me a bit worried about casting skills.  Three of four spools were brand new; it was proposed that we would load spools there at the ramp, while smallmouths chased bait in the shallows around us.  At first the clients were pleasant and relaxed; they said the right things about taking advice and so forth.  We got ready and shoved off.    But as soon as we were feet-wet, things deteriorated.  Tension between the clients became obvious, and I was glad that they sat facing opposite directions.  Their fly choices, casting directions, and retrieves had nothing to do with my advice.  They were in an arms race.  Both were well-tutored by the mainstream fly-fishing press, and they hurled advice at each other like snowballs packed around rocks.  I was in between.   Neither could get their flyline out of the boat.  Half an hour into the trip, drifting along through some of the most spectacular scenery in the East, and they were angry.  Not the best start to a guided trip.  And the smallies were on, too; I saw a lot of surface activity.  When the front angler fought a cast out about three rod-lengths and stripped in the excess flyline, a 14" fish slashed at his dahlberg right at boatside.  That was the only fish they moved all morning.  They changed flies, hung them in brush, on rocks, on the oars.  They debated barbless hooks even as I extracted one from my shoulder, barb fully functional but, thankfully, not quite engaged. They drank single-malt scotch but didn’t like it.   Just for a break, I put them out wading in a shallow, weedy area.  While they hacked and pumped and tied knots, I took a few tentative casts. Smallies to 12" took readily throughout the area. A few minutes later, a shout; one angler hooked, landed, and displayed, with what looked to be a fatal torso squeeze, a nice fish of about 14".  I grew angrier and angrier. In the previous week, tough conditions had limited good, old clients to few fish and few that size.  A few minutes later, with no other fish caught, I mounted them up and rode on.  Things came to a head as we approached a sharp, narrow rapid through a broken-down diversion dam.  The river here is mostly shallow, riffly ledges and rocks, with pools and weeds edges–classic smallmouth water.  As we approached the dam, I told them to pick up and keep their lines in, since the drop required a turn in the throat of the rapid to avoid jagged concrete and rebars that would tear the bottom out of the raft.  Both anglers disregarded this direction, and as we accelerated through the white water the guy in the aft seat hung up.   The boat was in mid-turn, and moving quickly.  I saw the rod go down and bend sharply. The angler called it a fish, but it obviously wasn’t.   "Give line!  You’re hung up!  Drop line!" I yelled.   "It’s a good one," he said.      The boat turned completely so that the flyline ran under, from stem to stern.  He was leaning into my sightline, to his left and my right.  The rod was compounded now, three-guides into the water, and he was holding tight.  I tried to pivot the boat a bit, but I had to hold my direction or risk a wreck.    "Give line!  Your’e hung!  I’ve got to turn.  Your’e going to break the rod!"    He didn’t give line, the rod didn’t break:  he let go of it.  It hung there a weird still second, then snapped straight and dove into the water, hung there a moment, then seemed to zoom upstream as the boat shot down current.  There was a stunned silence, which I welcomed.    As we drifted to a quiet spot, the forward angler asked questions:  He had missed the whole thing.  The aft angler was completely quiet, contemplating the permanent loss of a seven-hundred dollar outfit which had never caught a fish.  The 25-year guarantee didn’t cover loss by misadventure.  Feebly, he tried the Big Fish argument.   I wouldn’t even reply.  Pausing forty yards below the rapid, I was caught in a moral dilemma.    Our river is shallow, but forceful; a young woman had drowned in a canoe mishap against a rock about forty feet from where we sat a few years before. The water was warm, and I knew the spot intimately;  I was fairly sure that I could find the flyrod if the hook still held the snag.  Even if it had come loose, it was highly findable in the hole below, with a floating line and clear water.  But should I?  The angler considered it lost. He had plenty more, and was probably already composing the story for his friends, complete with bronze flash and tail the size of a Bible, no doubt with a supporting role as villain by  Sincerely Yours.  The guy was a mouth and a credit card, who had completely concealed all admirable qualities so far in the four hours we had known each other.  I sat for a long moment, then heaved a heavy sigh and dropped a hook.    "What’s up?" said the angler hopefully.    "You guys sit tight.  I may be able to get it back."    No reply.    I worked my way up to the dam in the slow water, alternately wading and swimming.  The usual friendly smooth river boulders were absent; it was jagged concrete and odd angles.  Careful footholds and a steep lean into the flow.  I couldn’t hope to work all the way up to the main rapid, but the faster water was shallower so I could hold.  Standing waist-deep in it, I stood and looked; sure enough, I saw the but and reel of the rod flare up in the swash.  Decision time.    I imagined how to do it:  Hit the ramp at nine pm, after the glorious dusk whitefly hatch.  Rack up and drop off at 10; drive up here and make the quarter-mile wade in the dark.  Feel through the rapid, hit the line, grab the rod; one sharp pull and I get a $700 tip.  If the day smooths out and the clients turn out OK, return the rod and call it an Abe Lincold honesty thing; if they fulfill their promise as first-class jerks, and especially if they stiff me, then the rod is mine.     The rod rolled up again, almost breaking the surface; I looked back. The forward guy was just watching, but the aft guy was looking away, an odd, vulnerable look on his face.  I realized a lot then, about how the attitude was a veneer, the macho competition covered a softer and simpler person. I couldn’t tell yet if he loved fish or fishing or rivers or boats, but I realized that the loss of the rod was probably fatal to his chances of ever loving any of it.  My guide habits created disdain and disapproval, but my river instincts told me that the river rarely returns something won fairly, and that to abuse the event was bad karma.  I couldn’t resist the impulse.  I gave him a smile and a nod and a thumbs-up, waited for the rod to show again, and leaned forward for it.  An easy catch, a yank and it was mine.  I rode the current back to them, winding up the slack line, and handed him the rod, wet and new.    I’d like to say the event changed the guy and things looked up; it’s half true.  The guy was grateful enough, but he didn’t have the eggs to really see my side of it.  I said, "Now will you listen to me?" and they both nodded, and they took a more relaxed and cooperative approach for a while.  They got their flylines out of the boat a few times, and caught some fish, too.  I got a reasonable tip, though the episode of the lost flyrod wasn’t mentioned again and the tip didn’t reflect the service that day.   I also gained the patience to stick with the difficult clients.  Somehow that day helped me to regain the basic comfort with the river that several years of difficult clients and finicky fish had eroded.  I remembered something that I had forgotten:  a guide is a teacher, and sometimes the best lesson is failure. Davemo18

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Question:

Has any one had any experience with the RIO VersiTip?  Any info would be appreciated. Thanks – Chris Chris Thompson

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Has any one had any experience with the RIO VersiTip?  Any info would be appreciated. Thanks – Chris Chris Thompson

Not experienced with the RIO line but their leaders and leader material are great products. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: BT’s Fly Fishing Products Has any one had any experience with the RIO VersiTip?  Any info would be appreciated. Thanks – Chris Chris Thompson Not experienced with the RIO line but their leaders and leader material are great products. Al Beatty

Hello, I’ve only got a very limited bit of experience with the leaders and leader material, but I have used their level shooting heads, and I hope the sink tips they include with the line are better made than the shooting heads that they sell (although I know that they are the same).   I bought a RIO type 6, 9 wt level shooting head that I chopped in 1/2 and looped the end to use on my home-grown sink tip lines.  The coating of this 1/2 section of line is now almost gone after very little use and I’ve been forced to toss it and use the second 1/2 already!  My SA type 4, type 2 and DWE heads have lasted many years under far more and harder use.  In fairness, the SA heads do cost about 2x as much as the RIO heads.  Anyway, I’m a big advocate of doing it yourself when it comes to a sink tip system – but be advised that it certainly doesn’t save any money over this system you mention, you just get a rig suited to your particular needs.  For a home-grown, you are looking at a $50 steelhead taper WF line, and at least 2 shooting heads (each of which will make 2 sink tips though) at $25 each for a total of ~$100.  I think this is about the same price as the versa-tip system isn’t it? I should also mention that this cheapie RIO type 6 head doesn’t sink quite as fast as the type 4 SA head – which is backward.  I’ve heard this complaint from several fellow steelheaders.   No flames.  I’ve nothing against Jim Vincent, RIO, or anything, and I know that SA makes their lines. cheers,         -tgades — Tony Gades Seattle, WA USA   website:   http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades

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Question:

Does any one have a pattern for tying the viva fly an gif or jpg would also be nice thanks in advance Julian

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Does any one have a pattern for tying the viva fly an gif or jpg would also be nice thanks in advance Julian

hi julian hook: s/s 10 body: black chenille,ribbed silver tail: flou green floss wing: black marabou tight lines keith —  Your worst day fishing beats your best day at work

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Question:

Hi Everyone: Has anyone seen or heard from Dennis Bitton of the Flyfishers News.  He had started a club called "Short Fat Flyfishers Club" awhile back and then poof, no newspaper and no Dennis. I would love to resurect the "SFFC" again and all its great attributes. If anyone knows Dennis Bitton or knows his whereabouts please have him get ahold of me here on the net. I have all the news articles he wrote on this subject if anyone would want to read them. The club had some simple rules. Waist- Minimum- 38"  Inseam- Maximum 30". There were special points given for baldness, 27" arm length, false teeth and so forth. There was a $5.00 member fee that went to Dennis’s lunches..:) The main point of the club was to put pressure on the wader and outdoor clothes mfg’s to create extended sized products (XXXL-XXXXXL). I don’t know about you, but I hate to buy waders with a 36" inseam just to get my girth pattern. As I remember there were about 260 members and we did succeed at one point in getting custom waders at a human cost, heck we even had L.L. Bean carry 50W 30IS Classic jeans for awhile.   If anyone is interested in either recreating this club or another one like it let me know. I will try my best to get ahold of Dennis at his last known address. Catch you all Later Keep a Mended Line Mike & Marie

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The SFFC is in the process of being revitalized.  Contact: L. C. ‘Bob’ Burnham 10522 Hartford Ave. Orofino, ID 83544 Dennis Bitton will remain as Grand Dictator. Even more promising:  They are discussing the resurrection of the newspaper-like ‘FLY FISHING NEWS VIEWS AND REVIEWS’.  Hope it happens! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Everyone: Has anyone seen or heard from Dennis Bitton of the Flyfishers News.  He had started a club called "Short Fat Flyfishers Club" awhile back and then poof, no newspaper and no Dennis. I would love to resurect the "SFFC" again and all its great attributes. If anyone knows Dennis Bitton or knows his whereabouts please have him get ahold of me here on the net. I have all the news articles he wrote on this subject if anyone would want to read them. The club had some simple rules. Waist- Minimum- 38"  Inseam- Maximum 30". There were special points given for baldness, 27" arm length, false teeth and so forth. There was a $5.00 member fee that went to Dennis’s lunches..:) The main point of the club was to put pressure on the wader and outdoor clothes mfg’s to create extended sized products (XXXL-XXXXXL). I don’t know about you, but I hate to buy waders with a 36" inseam just to get my girth pattern. As I remember there were about 260 members and we did succeed at one point in getting custom waders at a human cost, heck we even had L.L. Bean carry 50W 30IS Classic jeans for awhile.   If anyone is interested in either recreating this club or another one like it let me know. I will try my best to get ahold of Dennis at his last known address. Catch you all Later Keep a Mended Line Mike & Marie

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The SFFC is in the process of being revitalized.  Contact: L. C. ‘Bob’ Burnham 10522 Hartford Ave. Orofino, ID 83544

Hey, that fits me perfectly! <G  Orofino?  Hmm…that make me miss Kelly Creek.  It has been a couple years since I have been there.

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im a sfff. talk to me.

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