Question:

Hi ROFF people, I heard that there was an article, recently, in here, about a fly to catch mullet. But I can’t find it !! Can anybody please help me. I live in holland and know some places where there are really thousands of big mullets. I can approche them very good, ( and cast my fly betwen them ) but NEVER EVER was able to catch one. I can cleary see, that they are feeding ! Thanks in advance, Hans Bock.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi ROFF people, I heard that there was an article, recently, in here, about a fly to catch mullet. But I can’t find it !! Can anybody please help me. I live in holland and know some places where there are really thousands of big mullets. I can approche them very good, ( and cast my fly betwen them ) but NEVER EVER was able to catch one. I can cleary see, that they are feeding ! Thanks in advance, Hans Bock.

You can try these; http://www.mikeladle.com/tackle/tackle3.html http://globalflyfisher.com/global/denmark/species/mullet.html http://www.hartflyfishing.demon.co.uk/mullet_fishing.html TL MC

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I had this strange vision of you casting for Randy Johnson… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi ROFF people, I heard that there was an article, recently, in here, about a fly to catch mullet. But I can’t find it !! Can anybody please help me. I live in holland and know some places where there are really thousands of big mullets. I can approche them very good, ( and cast my fly betwen them ) but NEVER EVER was able to catch one. I can cleary see, that they are feeding ! Thanks in advance, Hans Bock.

– Jeff, TASCAM Guy:  "Dude, you’re on rec.audio.pro…everyone hates everything."

Response:

Try this http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z2C4323F I caught a mullet back in February and hooked several more but could not land them.  I was using 8 lb tippet.  The one I caught was 5 lbs (2.3 kg) and most of the fish that I saw were about the same size.  I was fishing in heavy surf and the fish were using the waves to their advantage.  The fish I managed to land made 15 runs before I finally dragged it onto shore with the help of a big wave.  It is not typical to catch mullet using any sort of means around this area.  However, on that particular day they were actively chasing a school of smelt.  There are many species of small fish that are called smelt so I am quite sure that smelt that you might be familiar with are not the same fish.  However, mullet is a mullet.  Some mullet species are larger than others but all of them (in the literature that I have seen) are closely related.  Although the smelt were silvery and typically 5 inches long, the mullet definitely seemed to like a small brownish fly.  My friend hooked one on a brown marabou fly but the fish broke off.  He couldn’t hook any more after that and he had no more brown flies.  I kept hooking and losing fish so finally I offered him one of my flies (which was a combination of burnt-orange llama and black & red squirrel tail).  So the color definitely seemed to be the trigger (as both of our flies were tied with similar materials and similar styles).  It may be that this color closely imitates the color of seaweed in this area. Even though the mullet were chasing baitfish, I think that a kelp imitation was able to trigger a response while they were in a mood to actively feed.  Good luck. Mu

Response:

http://anglersnet.co.uk/images/articles/leon24.jpg Just to whet your appetite! TL MC

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Question:

 I am fishing in Hawaii for Bluefin trevally(omilu). I have had limited sucess and am fishing from shore.I have found areas that have them via. catches and snorkling. But the fish are particular, most days they chase the fly to the beach,only to stop shot of a complete strike.Other times they are just ON the hook and running. Is there anyone who could shed some lite on my short strikes.. Three days without a hook up,,,,, Jeff Brazda

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Hello Jeff, I have fished for them in Christmas Island south of Hawaii just above the equator where they are probably more plentiful and more aggressive. They like red/yellow streamers there most of the time. They like fly rod salt water poppers too. In a populated area, I would fish for them in the AM, PM and at night. With lower light levels they can be more aggressive. Also try to go places where no one else fishes. A boat would be an advantage to get to places that are not heavily fished. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am fishing in Hawaii for Bluefin trevally(omilu). I have had limited sucess and am fishing from shore.I have found areas that have them via. catches and snorkling. But the fish are particular, most days they chase the fly to the beach,only to stop shot of a complete strike.Other times they are just ON the hook and running. Is there anyone who could shed some lite on my short strikes.. Three days without a hook up,,,,, Jeff Brazda

Response:

I am fishing in Hawaii for Bluefin trevally(omilu). I have had limited sucess and am fishing from shore.I have found areas that have them via. catches and snorkling. But the fish are particular, most days they chase the fly to the beach,only to stop shot of a complete strike.Other times they are just ON the hook and running. Is there anyone who could shed some lite on my short strikes.. Three days without a hook up,,,,, Jeff Brazda

Hello Jeff… I have had the same problem when fishing here in South Africa and Mozambique. The trick it seems is to use a fly (deceiver) with little flash. Just one or two strands of flashabou on the sides are sufficient. Best fly colours are chartreuse, then pink. Poppers are excellent, but if the fish are sitting in deep water, then they will rarely shoot up to the surface to hit the popper. Deceivers and a sinking line work best in this case. Also, the retrieve is as fast as you can. Hope this helps Regards Sudesh Pursad Bamba Flyfishing Adventures www.bamba.co.za Regards Sudesh Pursad Bamba Flyfishing Adventures www.bamba.co.za

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Question:

The Sylvania Tract, a little west of Ironwood, has geat smallmouth fishing.  It is all canoe, catch and release, barbless hooks only, and if you stay in overnight, has only primitive camping.  It is possible to rent a canoe and go into Clark Lake in the morning, fish the day, and get out before dark.  It’s not that big a lake.  We fished in June and caught bass to 21 inches.  I expect if you do a search on Sylvania Tract you will quickly find info. good luck

Response:

I’m heading up to Ironwood, Michigan for a wedding in mid August.  Does anyone have any advice on some good fishing spots nearby?  Any type from fly-fishing for trout to trolling for walleye would be appreciated. Thanks, SB

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I was up in that neck of the woods last summer and did some fly fishing in two general locations in that area. The Porcupine mountains are a few miles northeast from Ironwood. I didn’t catch too much there, but it sure is a pretty place with some beautiful vistas and backcountry. If you take Rt. 2 east to Watersmeet, you’ll come to the Ontonogon River. Easy to wade and full of cooperative brookies. I had great luck with small royal wolffs. When you buy your license, get a free copy of Michigan’s Inland Trout and Salmon Guide, which has maps of the whole state and its trout streams. Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m heading up to Ironwood, Michigan for a wedding in mid August.  Does anyone have any advice on some good fishing spots nearby?  Any type from fly-fishing for trout to trolling for walleye would be appreciated. Thanks, SB

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I’m heading up to Ironwood, Michigan for a wedding in mid August.  Does anyone have any advice on some good fishing spots nearby?  Any type from fly-fishing for trout to trolling for walleye would be appreciated. Thanks, SB

    If you are daring and have a bit of cash book a charter out of the harbor about 45 min north of there (The name escapes me right now Black River Harbor???) .  The Salmon should be just offshore by then.  Otherwise you have world class musky and walleye waters about 30 minutes south in the Turtle Flambeau Flowage in Wisconsin.  No Trolling allowed but this is world class water with many opportunties.  Clear and dark waters lie in the flowage and boat rentals as well as local info are available.  Night fishing may be the key for some really big fish by then.    As for trout streams the Montreal can yield some good catches late in the season if the water remains high enough and is only 15-20 minutes to the west.  Then you do have the Brule to the east, but personally I believe it is overrated and overfished. Good luck.  Both to you and the future wedded couple. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

This is mutating the topic somewhat, but here goes: I like the "Trilene knot" quite a bit.  It retains much of the original line strength and is just as easy to tie as a regular clinch knot.  The name irritates me, however.  Can a line company truly lay claim to a knot?  Must we make an advertisement for somebody every time we teach someone this knot?  Is it known by any other name? Pete C

Response:

If you’d be satisfied with a guess, the name could have originated simply because it was a knot initially devised by a surgeon in a fishing club: "Hey, where’d you learn that knot?"   "It’s the surgeon’s knot."

I do hope that this isn’t the case! My researches would really go down the plug hole, were it so. The mind boggles at the possibilities: the ‘bond traders’ hitch for tying up your mule; the ‘gynaecologists twist’ for wire shock tippets; the ‘lawyers loop’ (not safe; too slippery!) ….. the possibilities are endless. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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<all the good stuff snipped (this is going to get confusing).

Funny thing about knots; while I’ve never had any trouble tying them, talking about them has always made my head spin.  Reading back through this thread I find myself getting a bit dizzy. TL!

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Tony; After giving the matter some more thought I believe I can clear up how, if not when, the knot we use to tie on tippet became known as the "surgeon’s knot".

<rest snipped and neatly tied off with a surgeon’s knot… Your description is right Wolfgang.  As a Vascular and Thoracic surgeon, I think I can speak with some knowledge on such things  Basically, a surgeon’s knot is a reef knot, usually tied with one hand against the held-out strand of the other end of the ‘thread’.  The double-throw variant is also used for extra security when needed. By that, I mean TWICE round instead of once per layer as in the simple reef knot.   Usually, the reef knot is extended by several more ‘throws’ however – it is not common to use just the two throws, or layers.  Many surgical suture materials are monofilament and slippery, to aid in passing through tissues without cutting through, so they tend to slip when knotted, therefore most surgeons would tie at least 5 throws in these materials, with perhaps 3 in braided materials that slip less. There are obviously numerous variations also, such as deliberately tying a ‘granny’ knot – both throws in the same direction rather than opposite directions – so that the knot can be ’snugged’ down while still having some friction, then finishing off with a throw in the opposite direction to lock the knot. The "Surgeon’s Knot" as described in the fishing books is nothing like a ‘real’ surgeon’s knot.  I don’t know how it got its name. — Pete, Brisbane, Australia To reply by email, remove the "SPAMLESS" from the address in the header.

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I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers. In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted. My difficulty is that the modern appellation of this knot as the ’surgeons knot’ seems to be relatively modern. Practising surgeons (non-anglers) stare at you blankly when you show them this knot. The great American authority on knots, the late Prof. Cyrus Lawrence Day, shows a completely different knot in his ‘The Art of Knotting and Splicing’. The surgeon’s knot Day shows looks more akin to a ‘reef knot’ (’square knot’), except that there are two turns of the strands on the top and bottom edges of the knot (when viewed as normally tied). At present, I am inclined to think that ’surgeon’s knot’ (for what the term is currently, popularly, understood to mean) is a relatively modern appropriation (misappropriation) of the name. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ordinarily, a square knot is tied by making an overhand knot and then following it with another, making sure that the second is opposed to the first; left over right and then right over left (repeating left over right or right over left twice will result in a granny knot, notorious for slipping).  In making sutures, the suture material is wound once or twice around the needle holder which is then used to grasp the tag end and pull it through the loop.  When the material is wound twice around the needle holder the result is still an overhand knot; the ends merely twist around each other twice rather than the usual once.  In order to finish the square knot a surgeon repeats the process being careful to wind the material in the opposite direction from the first time.

Very interesting Wolfgang. What you have described is exactly the ’surgeon’s knot’, as described by Cyrus Day, as I cited in my original post. That’s good for me, because it supports the current use of the name for that particular knot (i.e., a ’square knot’ with two twists along each edge). Your earlier post, re. the ‘water knot’ you have used in climbing and the method of its construction is exactly that described by Day in his book. I suspect that the single overhand ‘water knot’ was adequate as an angler’s knot in the days of horsehair. The two, three and four turn versions were clearly developed to produce a safe knot when using the slippery synthetic line materials that came along later. Going back to the ’surgeon’s knot’, you mentioned the ‘granny knot’ as being unsafe cf. the ’square knot’ (which in Britain we more usually call the ‘reef knot’). In the 1991 edition of ‘Practical Fishing Knots’, by Sosin and Kreh, the authors describe what they call the ’simple blood knot’. This is nothing like a normal ‘blood knot’, but is slightly similar to the real ’surgeons knot’ as you described (this is going to get confusing). The big difference is that it is in fact a ‘granny knot’, but with seven twists along the two parallel edges of the box. It looks odd, but Sosin and Kreh claim nearly 100% knot efficiency for it. Thanks for the posts: interesting, but doesn’t really get me closer to tracking down when the two turn ‘water knot’ started being called the ’surgeons knot’. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers.

If you’d be satisfied with a guess, the name could have originated simply because it was a knot initially devised by a surgeon in a fishing club: "Hey, where’d you learn that knot?"   "It’s the surgeon’s knot."   Even in that context, it could still have origins in medical usage while not necessarily keeping its surgical configuration.   If you get a real answer, please share it. Joe F.

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Hi Tony :   The Surgeon’s knot is the ones described by the other people in their replies, as a double and then a stacked set of two single throws that is used to close an incision. The knot that we use to tie on leaders etc. that we call a surgeon’s knot is also used to join Rib Stitch cord that is used to hold the cloth covering onto an airplane wing when the stitcher has misjudged the length and needs a bit more to finish the rib correctly.   Just thought that you might find it of interest.    Jim Rahn    Guelph, Ontario,    Canada – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers. In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted. My difficulty is that the modern appellation of this knot as the ’surgeons knot’ seems to be relatively modern. Practising surgeons (non-anglers) stare at you blankly when you show them this knot. The great American authority on knots, the late Prof. Cyrus Lawrence Day, shows a completely different knot in his ‘The Art of Knotting and Splicing’. The surgeon’s knot Day shows looks more akin to a ‘reef knot’ (’square knot’), except that there are two turns of the strands on the top and bottom edges of the knot (when viewed as normally tied). At present, I am inclined to think that ’surgeon’s knot’ (for what the term is currently, popularly, understood to mean) is a relatively modern appropriation (misappropriation) of the name. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Tony; After giving the matter some more thought I believe I can clear up how, if not when, the knot we use to tie on tippet became known as the "surgeon’s knot". In addition to climbing rock and replacing more tippet than I care to think about, I have also done some surgical procedures on rats, and a great deal of woodworking. As a result of the woodworking I have had sutures put into every one of my fingers at one time or another. Having watched the procedure so often I know that the knots surgeons use are the same as the ones I use on rats; they are in fact simple square knots.  A square knot is, or course, simply two stacked overhand knots.  Ordinarily, a square knot is tied by making an overhand knot and then following it with another, making sure that the second is opposed to the first; left over right and then right over left (repeating left over right or right over left twice will result in a granny knot, notorious for slipping).  In making sutures, the suture material is wound once or twice around the needle holder which is then used to grasp the tag end and pull it through the loop.  When the material is wound twice around the needle holder the result is still an overhand knot; the ends merely twist around each other twice rather than the usual once.  In order to finish the square knot a surgeon repeats the process being careful to wind the material in the opposite direction from the first time. When two (or possibly even more) turns are taken around the needle holder before drawing tight it is exactly the same procedure as we perform in tying on tippet material.  The only real difference is that the surgeon performs this procedure on a single strand as opposed to the two that we use in making the "surgeon’s knot."  A casual observer would easily be fooled into thinking that the fisherman and the surgeon are doing exactly the same thing.  The error is almost certainly compounded by the fact that many of us use a hemostat to help tie our knot in the stream.  Not only is the process the same, we even use the same (to the untrained eye) tool. Sound plausible?

Response:

Wolfgang, Your description of how to tie the knot during surgery is correct. The surgeon’s knot is a knot that uses a self-retaining frictional hitch for the first throw. The two wraps in the first throw create more friction between the strands so that tissue layers that want to pull apart are held in apposition while the second throw is placed. A variant on this theme is to do three wraps on the first throw if there is a lot of tension between the tissue edges. However, the subsequent wrap is then two throws instead of one so the knot will not be too assymetric (which creates problems with knot security). The surgeon’s knot is only used when there is sufficient tension to pull the edges you are trying to appose apart while you are doing the second throw, otherwise suturing is done with a square knot (there are some caveats to this generality). I suspect that the flyfishing surgeon’s knot was given that name because it visually resembles the surgeon’s knot used for suturing (even though its structure is totally different). My guess is that it was named by someone with some familiarity with it in the medical context. However, I would be surprised if it was a surgeon since it is a different knot and surgeons are somewhat picky about naming knots and suture patterns. Cheers. Jon McAnulty

Response:

<snip In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted.

<snip I’m not sure I can help you on this one Tony; in fact, I may muddy the waters a bit more.  I’ve done a bit of rock climbing over the years and used what climbers refer to as a water knot to form loops in webbing or to join two pieces of webbing together (webbing is tubular woven nylon which has been pressed flat).  The climber’s water knot starts with a simple overhand knot tied near the end of a piece of webbing.  To make a loop, the other end is pushed back through the overhand knot following (in reverse) the path of the original end. Tying two pieces of webbing together is done in exactly the same fashion.  The only difference is that one uses the ends of two pieces rather than both ends of one piece.  The effect is essentially the same as the fisherman’s ’surgeon’s knot’ except that there is only one turn as opposed to the three or four used in the surgeon’s knot.  So, at bottom, the only real difference between the two knots is the number of turns taken, unless one thinks that the method of tying is significant.  The water knot used by climbers is the same as the surgeon’s knot used by fishermen.  Of course, I don’t know whether the climber’s water knot is the same as the one you made reference to. Hope this helps. TL.

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Question:

just a quick question from a beginner. i’ve read all about weight of fly lines and matching lines to rods etc, but i’ve never heard mention of the breaking strain of fly lines. i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line, but i was wondering, all the same, what the breaking strain of a 6 or 7 weight floating line would be? philip

Response:

just a quick question from a beginner. i’ve read all about weight of fly lines and matching lines to rods etc, but i’ve never heard mention of the breaking strain of fly lines. i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line, but i was wondering, all the same, what the breaking strain of a 6 or 7 weight floating line would be? philip

Our club has alot of tuna fly fishing freaks and some of them have broken fly lines on fish. I’m led to believe the core of nearly all fly lines is only 25-40 lb. 20 lb is normally the heaviest tippet you can use ( IGFA class ) but in Australia our National Sportfishing Association allows 15 kg tippet (over 30 lb). Some shooting heads have broken (in the middle somewhere) during fights with big Yellowfin on these heavy tippets, which from all accounts can be a little demoralising. Regard John Knight Sydney Fly Rodders

Response:

You are correct, it is not important. — Remove nospam to send E-mail Ernie Harrison   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line,

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just a quick question from a beginner. i’ve read all about weight of fly lines and matching lines to rods etc, but i’ve never heard mention of the breaking strain of fly lines. i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line, but i was wondering, all the same, what the breaking strain of a 6 or 7 weight floating line would be? philip Our club has alot of tuna fly fishing freaks and some of them have broken fly lines on fish. I’m led to believe the core of nearly all fly lines is only 25-40 lb. 20 lb is normally the heaviest tippet you can use ( IGFA class ) but in Australia our National Sportfishing Association allows 15 kg tippet (over 30 lb). Some shooting heads have broken (in the middle somewhere) during fights with big Yellowfin on these heavy tippets, which from all accounts can be a little demoralising. Regard John Knight Sydney Fly Rodders

Hi all, I think that fly lines #5 through #7 are built on  20# test braided line. I think #8 lines and larger are built on 30# test braided line. I know it is easier to needle knot a butt into a #8 line. It seem very hard to get a butt into a #2/3/4 weight line. I think that a line that is about 10 years old will have a weaker core because of the age. We now have lines with single mono cores and with braided mono cores. Some of the real fast sinking lines have a floss like twisted core. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

i’ve never heard mention of the breaking strain of fly lines. i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line, but i was wondering, all the same, what the breaking strain of a 6 or 7 weight floating line would be?

Irrelevant, i.e. a fine example of information that could be got but nobody conceivably needs.  You can see from the structure (dacron braid) that it would be in the range 50 to 150 lb., viz. stronger than all leader knots, backing, backing knot etc. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

i’ve never heard mention of the breaking strain of fly lines. i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line, but i was wondering, all the same, what the breaking strain of a 6 or 7 weight floating line would be?

Irrelevant, i.e. a fine example of information that could be got but nobody conceivably needs.  You can see from the structure (dacron braid) that it would be in the range 50 to 150 lb., viz. stronger than all leader knots, backing, backing knot etc. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         | Even though the leader breaks, you still (at least I do) have to worry occassionaly about stepping on the line, puling down branches entwined in the line, and extracting it after getting wedged in rocks. :=) William Buchman

Response:

just a quick question from a beginner. i’ve read all about weight of fly lines and matching lines to rods etc, but i’ve never heard mention of the breaking strain of fly lines. i guess it’s not important given that the leader will break before the actual line, but i was wondering, all the same, what the breaking strain of a 6 or 7 weight floating line would be?

As others have said that is mostly irrelevant information, however to give you some perspective on it, the floating running line used in shooting heads are about the same size as the belly section of a 2 wt. line and they are typically 30lb. breaking strength.  Six or seven wt. lines would be much stronger and the only real problem would be cutting them on a sharp object (cut a line in half on barnacles once, have seen lines cut in half with Stream Cleats) or cutting into the coating enough with a leader knot or other sharp object that the line hinges instead of smoothly transferring energy.  Never heard of a fly line just breaking.  It’s by far the strongest part of the line system.                              Hope this helps,                                   Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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Question:

I’m moving to the Patapsco River, MD area near Ellicott City.  Any recommendations on good fly fishing spots and what types of fish?

Response:

Steve, I fish a few areas of the Patapsco, mostly between the dam at Daniels Road and the Rt. 70 bridge.  It’s loaded with smallmouths, rockbass and bluegill.  They recently stocked it with trout, so there’s no sense even fishing it right now.  From mid May through late October it’s one of the most delightful streams I’ve ever fished.  Shallow, firm bottom, lots of rocks and boulders, and very few people bother with it.  Access is easy, with railroad tracks on one side and a bike trail on the other.  Good luck. Doug  

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try the Patapsco. (0r the gunpowder, potomac, cheseapeake bay, wherever you look.)  (Be more specific:  salt, brack, lake, trout, smallmouth, largemouth, picky trout, easy trout, big trout, little trout, far drive, near drive, wow.  If you are a trout purist you will do ok. . .Wolfe’s fly shop in Ellicott City. ) Dave

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Question:

Hi All, This most certainly has been discussed before, so forgive any repetition. I currently have a pair of rubber coated canvas waders. Eventually these will fail and need replacement…at least that’s what I tell my wife . So far they have held up through two seasons, but you never know…. Does anyone have experience with 5mm vs 3mm neoprene waders? Specifically, what is the durability difference between the two (if any)? Is one more prone to pinhole leaks than the other? What about heat retention? Fishing here in Georgia, we have a much longer warm season than say, Montana, so insulation is not as big a factor. What about fishing from a float tube..wouldn’t the neoprene be better than the canvas? (looking for purchase justification here!! ) Thanks in advance, –John        John Carney          Fly Fisher & Parrot Head

Response:

Fishing here in Georgia, we have a much longer warm season than say, Montana, so insulation is not as big a factor. What about fishing from a float tube..wouldn’t the neoprene be better than the canvas? (looking for purchase justification here!! )

Hell in GA I’d skip the neoprene and go for the Gortex.  I would think that the heat would be more of a problem than the cold.  5mm are very very warm, Xmas of 95, I was in a river with 6" of ice and was comfortable.  They’d probably cook you in Dixie!!! jg

Response:

Does anyone have experience with 5mm vs 3mm neoprene waders? Specifically, what is the durability difference between the two (if any)?

I’ve been using 3mm Simms neoprenes for several years now.  They have remained warm and flexible.  Whatever brand you buy, spend a little more than you can afford. Is one more prone to pinhole leaks than the other?

Pinholes don’t seem to be the main problem, rather leaks at seams, especially when you do a lot of tubing in them. What about heat retention? Fishing here in Georgia, we have a much longer warm season than say, Montana, so insulation is not as big a factor.

3mm keep me good and warm, but early in the season I do wear some Thermax bibs.  During warm season a pair of light thermal pants or silks will help keep you from getting too clammy from sweat.  I got the thinner neoprenes because I figure I can always add extra insulation when it’s cold, but you can’t reduce the insulation of a 5mm wader when it’s hot. What about fishing from a float tube..wouldn’t the neoprene be better than the canvas? (looking for purchase justification here!! )

Even in high summer tubing gets cold, because all the heat eventually gets leeched away, no matter what you’re wearing.  I find that I can last about 3-4 hours at a stretch in 50 degree water before I have to get out and warm up and take a leak.  Only problem I’ve had with neoprenes in my tube is some slight leaking as the seams stretch because I sit in the tube, and the slight chaffing on the upper thigh where the neoprene rubs against the material of the tube. Anglerboy

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This most certainly has been discussed before, so forgive any repetition. I currently have a pair of rubber coated canvas waders. Eventually these will fail and need replacement…at least that’s what I tell my wife . So far they have held up through two seasons, but you never know…. Does anyone have experience with 5mm vs 3mm neoprene waders? Specifically, what is the durability difference between the two (if any)? Is one more prone to pinhole leaks than the other? What about heat retention? Fishing here in Georgia, we have a much longer warm season than say, Montana, so insulation is not as big a factor. What about fishing from a float tube..wouldn’t the neoprene be better than the canvas? (looking for purchase justification here!! )

Hi John, The 3 mil waders will do everything you want them to down to water temperatures of ~42.  Usually below 42 degrees I have to put some mid weight synthetic longs on underneath them.  Above that I use the lightweight synthetic longs to keep any moisture off my skin and keep it between my longs and the waders.  The 3 mil neoprenes will give you the flexibility  you want and the comfort while float tubing.  Take a llok at the Orvis Hi-back 3mil neoprenes ($225) or the bare bones version the Clearwater neoprenes ($98). If it is usually hot most of the time you are fishing, you should check out the breathable waders.  Orvis makes two models.  The No-Sweat wader for $305 which feature a brushed micro-fiber outer fabric, knee pads, and a floating heel (easier to fit various shoe sizes)on the neoprene foot.  They just came out this year with the Clearwater No-Sweat waders for $165.  They are made out of a tightly woven nylon outer fabric, have the standard type of neoprene foot and no knee pads.  Not quite as durable as the premium No-Sweats, but covered with the same guarantee (4 years) and about 1/2 the price of other breathable waders.  Keep in mind that the breathable waders offer no insulation of their own and they don’t stretch.  As long as you layer accordingly underneath for colder weather they are fine, and nothing is more comfortable on a hot day.                          Hope this helps,                                  Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi All, This most certainly has been discussed before, so forgive any repetition. I currently have a pair of rubber coated canvas waders. Eventually these will fail and need replacement…at least that’s what I tell my wife . So far they have held up through two seasons, but you never know…. Does anyone have experience with 5mm vs 3mm neoprene waders? Specifically, what is the durability difference between the two (if any)? Is one more prone to pinhole leaks than the other? What about heat retention? Fishing here in Georgia, we have a much longer warm season than say, Montana, so insulation is not as big a factor. What about fishing from a float tube..wouldn’t the neoprene be better than the canvas? (looking for purchase justification here!! ) Thanks in advance, –John       John Carney         Fly Fisher & Parrot Head

Hi John, The 3mm neoprene is the standard in the industry with 5mm being more durable, warmer and less flexible. For serious float-tubers, 5mm will hold up longer. Gor-Tex is coming on very strong, as this will be the year of the breathable Gor-Tex wader. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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I have been fishing with Orvis Clearwater Gortex waders this year in Minnesota.  Yesterday I went out and it was 15 degrees.  I wore my waders with fleece pants and long underwear.  It was toasty.  In the summer I know they will be a thosand times more comfortable than the 2mm neoprenes I had before. Mike H

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To this thread specifically. I have used Body Glove 5mm’s for the last 8 years. Got some cheap Hodgman 3mm’s for Christmas.   Wished I’d of had the 5mm’s on saturday.  Toes got cold for the first time in 8 years.  They were dry, but cold. Summer heat, the 3s’ll be a godsend. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Question:

I’m new to this sport and love it!  Wonder where I can go for some good fishing that is in close proximity to home (Bryan, Texas)?  I’d like to be able to get there pretty quick and still spend a couple  hours after work fishing.  Any advice?   Also, I’m going to be down near Corpus Christi in July, any suggestions there?   Thanks in advance for the advice! Mark Klemm

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I’m new to this sport and love it!  Wonder where I can go for some good fishing that is in close proximity to home (Bryan, Texas)?  I’d like to be able to get there pretty quick and still spend a couple  hours after work fishing.  Any advice?   Also, I’m going to be down near Corpus Christi in July, any suggestions there?   Thanks in advance for the advice! Mark Klemm

Mark, almost any place that has fish, you can fly fish.  Don’t think that it is restricted to trout.  If you want to fish for trout however, try the Guadalupe where it comes out of Canyon(?) Dam.  That area is stocked, and is currently getting good press about the success of the program. Also, you can fly fish the same Guadalupe for bass. Small streamers are best, however even large wooly buggers and mariboo steamers will work…..   Dee Crabtree DeeCrab*ibm.net

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Question:

Does anyone know where I can get a hold of a hatch matcher chart?? Iam just starting out flyfishing and I need all the  help I can get. None of the fly shops in my area carry them. I would appreciate any advice on where to get a hold of one. RON

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: Does anyone know where I can get a hold of a hatch matcher chart?? : Iam just starting out flyfishing and I need all : the  help I can get. None of the fly shops in my area carry them. I would : appreciate any advice on where to get a hold of one. : RON A good book for beginners is Dick Pobst’s guide to insects. It is an Orvis streamside guide.

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PLEASE DO NOT PUMP THE STOMACHS OF THE FISH…  This causes them to adjust their eating habits for several days and can harm the fish permanately.

Yep, leads ‘em down the wayward path to anorexia/bolemia. If you think whirling disease is a problem, let me tell you, once the fish get into a binge and purge cycle, you’ve got a bigger problem.  How you gonna provide psychotherapy to all them fish?  The costs would be astronomical! — -Wayne Trzyna

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Does anyone know where I can get a hold of a hatch matcher chart?? Iam just starting out flyfishing and I need all the  help I can get. None of the fly shops in my area carry them. I would appreciate any advice on where to get a hold of one. RON

 There are a couple of good books out on the market to match the  Hatch with.  Almost any major bookstore can get a copy of the  "Hatch Bible" called MATCHING THE HATCH.  It is a good book but the best  way to match the hatch is by seining the water.  PLEASE DO NOT PUMP THE  STOMACHS OF THE FISH…  This causes them to adjust their eating habits  for several days and can harm the fish permanately.  Since there are so many new anglers out there we need to preserve what we got.

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