Question:

There is plenty of ice out there.  Here on the West Coast it occurs from now until spring.  Usually below 15,000. The leagality issue is the source of endless debate.  The big question is what constitutes "known icing conditions".  The opinions lately have been swinging toward forcast icing as being "known icing".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions. I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Either or both, I would guess. In Severe Weather Flying (which I strongly recommend) Dennis Newton suggests that the freezing band in stratiform cloud is rarely more than 3000 ft thick, and in convective cloud rarely more than 6000 ft thick.  Above that level, the temperature is low enough so that the concentration of supercooled water droplets is low (they’re already ice). The Airmet may not be able to place that actual freezing band accurately, so it covers a deeper band. I wouldn’t want to bet my life on the freezing band being only 3000 ft thick: the Mooney I fly is about the worst icing-test-aircraft that I can imagine, and I’m certainly not tempted to try to climb through 3000 ft of freezing cloud to find out.  But it’s a useful thing to have in your mind if you encounter icing. Julian Scarfe

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.

Some would say that’s overly conservative.  They’re wrong. Actually, in a relatively high performance single like yours, you might consider poking your nose in to take a look, provided you have good options for what to do if your nose gets frostbit. A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it.  And if you don’t have a high performance airplane, you have no business sticking your nose in even if you can get out quickly, because the ice will bog you down fast. And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range.

As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip.

Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron

No, you don’t.  I came damn close myself a couple of times, and both times I thought I could make the flight VFR (once above the clouds, once below them). Michael

Response:

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed.

Excellent recount of your inadvertent adventure, man. And scary as hell. Thanks for takin the time. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??

Something like that.  See, here’s the scenario.  MEA’s are 5000 ft. Tops are 4000, freezing level is 3000, and I can count on a climb rate of 1000+ fpm up through 7000.  Under those circumstances, I might be willing to give it a go, provided I could get back in to where I was going without having to climb to the MEA.  Remember the MSA around your departure airport, and think about how you would get back in if you stick your nose in and it gets frostbit. In a situation where icing was possible but wasn’t being reported, and the MOCA was below the freezing level, I might even be tempted to give it a shot going through the potential ice unless people were reporting icing.  The idea is that I have LORAN and GPS on board, and the GPS has a power source independent of the aircraft, and the odds that I’ll be forced to descend below the freezing level (to the MOCA, where I still won’t hit anything) AND the LORAN or electrical system goes out on me AND the GPS goes out on me are so long as not to be worth considering.  So push come to shove, I can descend. This is all a risk management game – how much has to go wrong before you run out of options?  If you postulate enough simultaneous failures, eventually you have nothing left to work with and you die. But the fact is, for two independednt things to fail on the same flight, you need to be having a really bad day, so I don’t worry about it.  Ice forming when it wasn’t forecast even though there is visible moisture and temperatures below freezing?  That’s not all that common, but not unexpected either.  If you don’t plan for that you’re a moron.  Electrical failure?  Same deal.  Both in one day?  Pretty damn remote.  Handheld GPS going at the same time? Man, it just wasn’t your day.  See what I’m getting at? The idea is this – if you have visible moisture and are in subfreezing conditions, ice can form.  If all your outs depend on ice not forming somewhere under those conditions, you’re kidding yourself.  You need an out that involves either getting to where it’s above freezing or getting to where there is no visible moisture, and getting there QUICKLY. In general, if you’re on the East or West coast in winter, or in the mountains any time of year, and you have a need to fly IFR (meaning the weather won’t let you get there VFR) then you need deice.  Or you can take your chances.  Sure, there are days that are exceptions, but that’s the general rule. I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast.

Well, how far do your abilities stretch?  This is what I mean by being where you can still climb 500 fpm.  Face it, tops are not very likely to rise more than 500 fpm.  Also, if you can still do 500 fpm where you are, odds are you can go another 5000 ft up with little trouble.  The tops are not likely to go that much higher everywhere at once.  A lightly loaded C-182 should still be doing 500 fpm up at 7000 ft. I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever.

If the haze is thick enough to reduce the vis to 1 sm, well, maybe. That takes A LOT of moisture, maybe enough that it might start to come out as ice.  But I’ve yet to see visibility that poor without ceilings so low as to make going under anywhere but wide-open Midwest (and maybe even not there anymore, what with all the towers going up) way too scary even for me. Michael

Response:

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions.

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions.   I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Response:

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react,

Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours. Thanks for your observations! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Actual ice is not rare.  You will find ice in virtually every cloud below 0C on the West Coast.  There are plenty of places with ice-free clouds around 0C but they are generally not near the coast. Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??  I remember my first solo IMC.  I plunged into the clouds on climbout, expection to be IMC all the way to my destination, only to pop out on top within 30 seconds.  (not in winter of course)  What a beautiful sight! And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself.

I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast. Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can.

I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever. … Aaron

Response:

I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right?

For the legal aspects I recommend http://www.avweb.com/articles/icingb/index.html But then I’ve very rarely paid much attention to the FARs myself. Paul Bertorelli’s article in November’s IFR is also well worth a read.  It sent shivers down my spine. I have that T-shirt… Julian Scarfe

Response:

I got "page could not be found" on the sites you mentioned, but I think they are here now. http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/vvice.html and http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/nnice.html I also like http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/integrated/index.html and http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/ nice cloud tops graphs and icing reports and "ice at your intended altitude". Also the ADDS java pireps and airmets at http://adds.awc-kc.noaa.gov/projects/adds/index.html also look under the ADDS satellite icon and do the "forecast clouds" thing for your altitude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours.

The scary part is that I was a low time VFR-only pilot when I was rapidly disabused of my misconceptions.  Story follows. It was a winter day in Inidiana, and I wanted to fly.  My girlfriend wanted to eat.  I convinced her that it would be fun to go to Rochester (IN) where there was a nice restaurant right across the street from the airport.  The weather was 8000OVC and 10 mile vis – good VFR by anyone’s estimation.  When I got my briefing the briefer warned me about icing in clouds.  I pointed out that I was a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane and not planning to be in any clouds.  He told me I’d be fine. Now icing is usually most severe at temperatures above zero – the air in subzero clouds is usually too dry for any significant icing to occur.  The bases were at 8000 ft, and the ground temperatures were subfreezing.  This SHOULD have clued me in about the inversion, but I was a low time VFR-only pilot and missed the cue.  (For our European readers, I refer to zero F, which is about -18C) The Tomahawk I rented had the 125 hp engine.  The advantage was that in the cool winter air, the bigger engine was just the ticket to get us to a comfortable cruising altitude quickly.  The disadvantage was that at full power it was a thirsty beast, and for W&B reasons I elected to depart with a less than full load of fuel.  I estimated that I had about 3 hours, and the round trip would take about 1.5 hours at the power settings I would be using.  That seemed like a comfortable safety margin for day-VFR flying. The trip out and the lunch were uneventful, I hit my chekpoints perfectly, and lunch was good.  The trip back started out just fine.  Then I flew into a light rain shower. It was very light, and I could see right through it, so I really did not realize anything was wrong until I was in it.  Then I noticed (and this all happened in a matter of seconds) that the horizon was going away.  No, it was not a case of inadvertent VFR-into-IMC.  There was a layer of clear ice building on my windshield.  I made an immediate turn out of the shower.  I expect my total time in the rain was only about a minute.  But by the time I was out of it, I was at full throttle, only a little above Vy, and was gaining MAYBE 50-100 ft/min.  I also could not see through my windshield because it, like the wings, was carrying a load of clear ice.  Also, at full throttle, I now had less than an hour of fuel. I was lucky and I kept my head.  I got help from ATC, the ice eventually sublimated off (but I had a plan that would, I think, have worked even with the ice – I was getting vectors to the 10,000+ ft runway at Grissom AFB), and I made an uneventful landing with about 30 minutes of fuel in my tanks.  Had I crashed, no doubt I would have gotten a 90 for flying in known icing conditions. Thanks for your observations!

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed. Here’s another observation – weather is the most complex and open-ended area of pilot knowledge.  The amount of weather knowledge that the average pilot has when he is given a ticket is pretty minimal.  Unsurprisingly, it is also the major player in airplane crashes. Michael

Response:

There is nothing in Part 91 that specifically addresses flight in icing conditions (ignoring, of course, 91.527 which does not apply to most newsgroupies). The legal problem arises from 91.9, which refers to restrictions in the manual for the aircraft. I think common sense is a wonderful substitute for regulation, however. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly. If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Two sites that you can check out for unofficial guidance (they are experimental) are www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/nnice.html and www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/vvice. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.  And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

Response:

1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR?

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles)

It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

You expect us to trust your judgement when you willingly flew a Traumahawk ? Kidding. Agreed with everything you said. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice.

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Here’s about the extent of my cloud physics… You never *know* that you’re not going to get freezing rain, but without an inversion it’s unlikely.  If precip is forming above the freezing level it’s usually as ice.  As it falls into warmer temperatures below the freezing level it melts.  Neither are necessarily problems, over and above what you’d expecting the same cloud without the precip; the formation of precip above the freezing level can actually be a good sign, as it may be a sign that the cloud is glaciating (turning from supercooled liquid drops into ice particles). The danger comes where precipitation falls from warmer temperatures above as rain into a sub-zero layer at lower levels.  That’s freezing rain.  In my part of the world (UK), it’s an infrequent scenario, but it certainly can happen. In the mid-US, where there’s less water around to keep the lower levels warm in winter, it’s probably a more frequent occurrence. Precipitation does, however, indicate that the cloud tops are higher than they otherwise would be, if it’s convective.  In my limited experience some of the worst icing conditions are the tops of building cumulus which have not yet started producing much precip. Julian Scarfe

Response:

Thanks. This is helpful. -pw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly.   If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough.

It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right?

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s

ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. For example 2000′ overcast, 6 degrees C on the ground, will usually be above freezing right up to the cloud deck. In the clouds, it is freezing. Tops are high, say 10000AGL. Fairly common actually. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Question:

I wish you gents had FISH there in North Carolina.  I mean, some BIG fish.  14 – 20 inch rainbows and/or browns.

Could send one up here and I will try it on some 23" cutts I know of  Or maybe some big rainbows and browns on a few other pieces of water I know. Maybe I should have just broken down and bought a bloody bastard for myself…….By the sounds of it I should have.   Nice report Walt.  I was going to post a congratulations to you on your new tool and to George on what appears to be a job well done, but it didn’t sound right.  I’ll drink a cold one to your health and happiness and pray that I don’t catch minnows tomorrow. Warren

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wish you gents had FISH there in North Carolina.  I mean, some BIG fish.  14 – 20 inch rainbows and/or browns. Could send one up here and I will try it on some 23" cutts I know of  Or maybe some big rainbows and browns on a few other pieces of water I know. Maybe I should have just broken down and bought a bloody bastard for myself…….By the sounds of it I should have. Nice report Walt.  I was going to post a congratulations to you on your new tool and to George on what appears to be a job well done, but it didn’t sound right.  I’ll drink a cold one to your health and happiness and pray that I don’t catch minnows tomorrow. Warren

a small fortune and one doesn’t need to be making mistakes.  They don’t even come fitted, which is a mind blower.  But wrapping guides all night and fitting hardware on these Bamboo Beauties is a lot of work.  I don’t mind as long as I have people such as yourself interested in the future.  I should send you one just to try but I have no spare Bastards.  They’re all taken.  Can you use a 7.5′ 4 Wt Warren?  I’m working on one tonight to send to MAINE!  Do you hear that Maine?!  The Brown Truck cometh sooneth! — Mr. G.   ‘all’s fair with fur or feather’ http://www.gink.com http://www.rodbuilding.com http://www.xink.com 509-243-4100 or 5500

Question:

Hi Folks, after all the e-mails enquiring as to my reasons for ceasing to subscribe

Gentlemen and Ladies, I am moved by the loss of the best among us. I have filed Mike’s post in a place where I’ll be able to find it next time I feel like launching a salvo. Hope we can all do the same. sniff…..

Response:

I have simply made a personal decision not to subscribe.

Good to see your byline again, Mike, even if for the last time.  best wishes….. Mark Faulkner

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Mike Connor wrote [final farewell snipped] Huge loss for ROFF.  I’ll miss your wit Mike.

Response:

Mike Connor Honi soit qui mal y pense.

George Visit: http://www.gink.com

Response:

Hi Folks, after all the e-mails enquiring as to my reasons for ceasing to subscribe to the news groups generally and ROFF specifically, and although I was of the opinion that I had made my reasons quite clear, here they are once again. The subject is now closed for me. I will not answer any further e-mails on this subject, it would serve no useful purpose. E-mails to the various websites or bulletin boards to which I contribute are also a waste of time, as I will not discuss the matter further. I would be most obliged if you would consider this, especially in the chat rooms where I am on line, nobody is interested in the matter, and it just wastes time and annoys people. I will also not join in discussions denigrating ROFF, or any of its contributors under any circumstances whatsoever. If you have a problem with somebody on ROFF then talk to them or take it to e-mail with the people concerned, I have no interest in the matter. I have no personal axe to grind as far as ROFF is concerned, I still think ROFF is basically  great actually, I have simply made a personal decision not to subscribe. The reasons are listed in order of importance, just in case anybody wants to know exactly, as it appears quite a few do. 1.  I cannot afford to pay for the downloading of large amounts of spam. This is purely  a financial criteria, and is by far the most important one. Without attempting to define spam, I mean anything which may generally be described as crap, be it multiple senseless posts, or direct commercial misuse of usenet. This simply costs me a lot of money which I do not have in amounts sufficient to waste on this nonsense. Before anybody else sends me tips for saving money on usenet, do me and yourself a favour, forget it. Most of the ideas are not practicable, and as I pay metered rates for on line time, sometimes not even possible. 2. I see no point in allowing myself to be insulted or provoked by people whose main interest in life seems to be annoying or upsetting  as many people as they can in the shortest possible time. Especially when it is just nasty and not even remotely amusing. This runs contrary to the spirit of the newsgroup, and continuing to pay out good money for this sort of thing would mean I would have to have a screw loose, this is fortunately not the case. 3. I am my own man, I do what I do, say what I say, and think what I think, I do not like it much when people attribute my words or actions to reasons they have dreamed up themselves, and attempt to prove their invariably faulty conclusions in print on a public forum. I am nobodies sycophant. I also resent it deeply when people make stupid or annoying or simply false statements based on posts I or others have made, where it is perfectly obvious that they have either not read the posts properly or are lacking the wherewithal to understand them. 4.  The informational and amusement content of the newsgroups seems to be deteriorating in direct proportion to the amount of ill mannered and ignorant persons subscribing to them. I would tend to avoid such people in private life, ( the "bar" analogy ), and see no reason why I should not follow this eminently sensible policy elsewhere also. 5.  There are too many people who want to control all sorts of things, up to and including what other people may or may not post. Usenet is in my opinion one of the last bastions of true free speech, to those who can not accept this, or attempt continually to misuse it, I can only say you are not ready for freedom of speech.  Freedom of speech allows you to say what you like when you like to whoever you like, like many great things it should be exercised with manners and self-control if it is not to degenerate into a senseless insulting free for all, even more so on a relatively  anoymous medium like usenet.  If some of the things said on here in the past were indeed said in a bar, then the people responsible would certainly be looking for a new set of teeth at the very least, and a good thing too. Unfortunately as I am unable to come into even remote striking distance of the aforementioned dental accoutrements, I find it better to remove myself from the sphere of influence, whether a bar or usenet is immaterial. 6.  I was indeed extremely angry at the amount of direct e-mail spam I received as a result of the ill considered efforts of one ROFF contributor in distributing my e-mail address to commercial spammers. I am prepared to accept that this was a mistake, the person concerned apologised profusely and sincerely,and I am no longer angry at him.  This was not my main reason for leaving the group, just an extra annoyance. 7. I was ever more dismayed at the number of trolls obviously designed to get a rise out of somebody or provoke a useless argument, which turned nasty fairly quickly, I see no point in this, and I imagine it is just some perverse form of entertainment, in which only perverts would indulge, especially in view of the anonymous nature of the whole thing. Purposely pissing off someone you dont even know for enjoyment strikes me as being perverse in the  extreme, and I prefer to keep my distance in such cases. 8. The comment from many  posters that anybody who posts in public forums should expect to be insulted and must develop a thick skin is in my opinion a symptom of their own perversity and lack of manners. I expect to be treated at least with good manners. When this is not the case I have several options usually. In this particular case, retiring from the field is probably the most sensible. 9.  I was of the opinion that groups such as ROFF provided a service and source of information on the subject at hand, and everything even remotely related to it. I attempted to subcribe in this spirit, as I assume most others also do.  This attempt met  with far more negative criticism and insulting responses than I would have hoped it might, and this was extremely disappointing. This also contributed to my decision to leave. I hope this clears up any wierd ideas, misconceptions, or even downright lies as to why I no longer subscribe, and that the subject is now definitely closed. I welcome personal and private e-mail on any and every subject under the sun, and I am happy to help anybody at all if it lies within my power, however as I already said on at least one other occasion, enquiries which start with the words "How do I start fly-fishing" or similar all embracing questions are beyond my power to answer in a couple of e-mails, and anybody who thinks he can become a good flyfisherman by studying a potted set of answers from one person, or even a group of people, or watching videos etc, ought to take up tennis, or bowling or something similar. The only way to become a good flyfisherman is to go and do it, read as much as you can, talk to as many flyfishers as you can, and try out what they say, advice on specific problems will always be available. One of the greatest attractions of flyfishing is the fact that however much you learn, and however good you become, there is always something new to learn, the possibilities and facets are infinite.  Flyfishing is not just a hobby like embroidering cushion covers, or weaving carpets, as a way of killing time, it is a philosophy, a religion, a way of life. It is hard work all the way, but absolutely fascinating, entrancing and enslaving. Thanks again for all your e-mails, I am surprised ( and of course pleased ! ) that my leaving a forum like this could generate such a furore which lasts such a long time. I obviously made a positive and pleasant impact on at least some of you, as indeed many of you did on myself. It is very pleasant to get such support and encouragement mostly from people I have never met , and probably never will, I met some lovely people on the groups, I enjoyed myself, and I learned an awful lot, but I will not return to any of the newsgroups, if only to prove some of the ignorant and insulting people  wrong who e-mailed me telling me what a pompous over educated ( If only they knew !!! )ass I am, and that I would doubtless return at some point. I would not like to give such people the satisfaction of being right, even if I got usenet access for free ! Tight lines ! Mike Connor Honi soit qui mal y pense.

Response:

Question:

Anyone have an aluminum jon boat that they can recommend?

Rich, If it’s just for yourself try a ten foot aluminium jon boat.  Sea Nymph is a good brand.  It’s very light and doesn’t draw much water.   I believe you can get one new for about $500.00 – if it’s used, in my neck of the woods (Sullivan County, New York), they go for about $150 to $200 though the newspapers.   Plus, you can stand in them  when you cast which you really can’t do in a kayak or, for that matter, in a canoe. Merry Christmas, Tony Ritter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Seconding another poster, have you considered a kayak?  Simple, light (50-80 pounds), easy to carry single-handed (simply hold it over your head and trot along), much faster than other paddle-powered boats (you will leave a rowboat in the dust, metaphorically speaking, and a canoe too), and stable enough if you get the right one.  If you get enthusiastic and skilled enough, you can even paddle these out into the ocean and saltwater fish. I would particularly look at the Folboat (sp?) brand of folding sea kayaks. These have a frame that you assemble and then insert into a rubber/fabric skin.  The advantages over regular kayaks are: the cockpit is open (your legs are exposed, rather than being tucked into a round coaming) which would make it easy to stash tackle bags, small coolers, the paddle, the rod, etc. which otherwise have to be strapped to the rounded top of the boat; these are beamy (wide) boats and hence very stable — not as stable as a jonboat and you won’t stand up in it, but if you have a minimum of coordination you’ll find it just fine to paddle, fish, even snooze in a seated position; because they break down and fit into a large duffel bag, you can stuff it in the trunk of your car or a closet or even check it on a plane; and, as folding kayaks go, it’s inexpensive (in the ballpark of $500-700 used for a single boat, I *think* — check out rec.boats.paddle.)  Hardcore sea kayakers may tell you the Folboat isn’t tough enough: they’re talking about multi-day ocean trips loaded with 100 pounds of food and water and launching through heavy surf, which isn’t too relevant for your usage.   Another folding kayak with a similar design, but tougher and more expensive, is the Klepper series.  (Kleppers have crossed the Atlantic, in fact.)  Overkill for fishing on a lake, and older ones might need too much TLC, but if you found one used for cheap enough it’d be OK. Yet another is the Feathercraft series.  I think these are tremendous for ocean use (I have two Feathercraft K-1’s) but they have a traditional hard cockpit coaming (not an open cockpit) and are definitely overkill (used price is like $3000).  I have flyfished from my Feathercraft off the California coast and found it a pain, since there was no handy place to put my rod when I picked up the paddle or vice versa. Another idea along the kayak line would be one of the surfboard style kayaks.  I don’t recall the actual name for this type.  They are molded out of a single piece of plastic, you sit in a molded depression, they are really quite cheap and capable but you do not stay dry so unless you like wearing wetsuits or fish in warm water . . . but might be a way to try out the concept for cheap, by renting one for a weekend. If you do choose a kayak, take a course in handling them and safety.   — Using Virtual Access http://www.soft-shop.com

Response:

I’m looking for ideas and info. on what you all think is the ideal boat/pram for fly fishing.   I plan to fish small lakes that I will need to row, or use an electric or gas motor (if allowed).  The boat needs to be somewhat light (100# thereabouts) because I will have to lift and carry it maybe 100 yards to launch in some cases.  I can car top or trailer, does not matter. I have seen the dinky prams in the magazines, but I think I need more room. Anyone have an aluminum jon boat that they can recommend? Appreciate any help Rich

Response:

If I were you I would look into a kayak. I upgraded from a float tube and think it’s great! If you want  I have some group postings I can email you. They helped me make my decision. Lot’s of good people in the group so you will get more good input, maybe more than you want. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking for ideas and info.

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Question:

I am not sure about loading the boat solo.  Its not so much the weight but

I’ve just switched canoes from an Old Town to a handmade wooden one. The wooden one weighs at least 20 pounds less, but is too hard to handle completely well alone in getting it off the truck and back on the sawhorses, so I’ve been paddling for overnights in the tiny Otter, with stuff strapped on deck.  Otter fits in my truck bed on a diagonal.  The new canoe is 18 feet and the fore/aft wobble and so forth and need to try to keep the wood safe is just more work than the weight loss is worth.  I’ll probably be selling it next year. The Old Towns are wonderful.  You don’t have to worry about dents.  I used to take that thing off my car (lousy arm strength) by looking over to my right to be sure there was nothing pointy and tip/flipping it off.  As people would stare, I’d smile and say, "It’s a Old Town." and go get the rest of my gear out of my trunk.  I even used to be able to get it on top of my truck by doing the crawl under, lift bow, set bow on top of truck and shove until it was in the right position. I did that on a well used Old Town for 10 years and it was in about the same shape when I handed it on as it was when I bought it.  Faded more, though, and one long nasty scratch that has to be fixed by the new owner. So go for the Old Town, even a bit heavy, if you don’t mind some unconventional on and off vehicle moves.  I’m 5′4" and out of shape and if I could do it, darn near anyone can.  Oh, yeah, middlel-aged, too.  However, if I could find a 40 pound kevlar at a price I could afford, I’d be on it like a shot. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -the size could get tough.  I carry it myself but its helpful having my son guide the back as I load it on and off.  But that may just be me…your coleman seemed to be heavier. I’m now back in the market and looking for an all-purpose boat to cover the following usage: 65% fishing (with electric or tiny outboard) 30% flatwater paddling (maybe day trips or overnights) 5% "whitewater" (certainly ning more than a class 2+) ty. er) It seems to me that Old Town makes more general purpose boats than the other manufacturers, let me know if I am wrong. Woodbury, MN

—– I only answer my email every few months, on average.   Patience helps.   http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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If I bought a Discovery I’d buy the 169.  Its patterned on their "tripper" which is a great boat.  A friend has the 169 and it seems decent. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Old Town Discovery 160K Old Town Discovery 133K Old Town Discovery 147 (current front runner)

Response:

Try before you buy…saying that… I had the same requirements you had except I also have a requirement of bringing my son along with me.  I went with the Mad River Revelation.  It does everything you want.  Its about 78 pounds, 17ft, and very stable also its expensive.  I fly fish out of it and its very comfortable to have my son in the front and me in the back.  It is amazingly comfortable to paddle over the lakes we fish.  It easily fits four for day trip though I have not tried camping out of it yet.  The electric motor is nice but because we enjoyed paddling it so much we use it only for trolling. I have not tried white water but have heard of others having no problems. I am not sure about loading the boat solo.  Its not so much the weight but the size could get tough.  I carry it myself but its helpful having my son guide the back as I load it on and off.  But that may just be me…your coleman seemed to be heavier. Good luck. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back in the early 80’s I canoed quite a bit.  Yes, I was a teenager, broke and naive, and bought a 15′ Coleman.  (Yada, yada, yada).  I enjoyed that, fished the heck out of it, camped out of it some and ran a few rapids I probably shouldn’t have. I’m now back in the market and looking for an all-purpose boat to cover the following usage: 65% fishing (with electric or tiny outboard) 30% flatwater paddling (maybe day trips or overnights) 5% "whitewater" (certainly ning more than a class 2+) Now I certainly don’t expect to find something that shines at everything. I had originally decided to do something square-sterned but decided that a double-ended boat would be more versatile.  I want to favor fishing since that will be my heaviest usage.  Tracking well under power would be important so I’m assuming a flat or slightly rockeredboat would be appropriate.  I might also row when fishing solo.  I will fish out of it a lot solo so ease of car topping is also important ( I used to do my Coleman alone and I think the 15′ I had was about 85 lbs).  But I want the ability to hold two for fishing comfortably, or hold three on a day or overnight paddle.  I favor plastic boats for cost and durability. I’m hoping the experts here can help. What have I come up with?  My best guesses so far are: Old Town Discovery 160K Old Town Discovery 133K Old Town Discovery 147 (current front runner) It seems to me that Old Town makes more general purpose boats than the other manufacturers, let me know if I am wrong. Let me know what you think. Thanks a lot, Keith Hatfull Woodbury, MN

Response:

Back in the early 80’s I canoed quite a bit.  Yes, I was a teenager, broke and naive, and bought a 15′ Coleman.  (Yada, yada, yada).  I enjoyed that, fished the heck out of it, camped out of it some and ran a few rapids I probably shouldn’t have. I’m now back in the market and looking for an all-purpose boat to cover the following usage: 65% fishing (with electric or tiny outboard) 30% flatwater paddling (maybe day trips or overnights) 5% "whitewater" (certainly ning more than a class 2+) Now I certainly don’t expect to find something that shines at everything.  I had originally decided to do something square-sterned but decided that a double-ended boat would be more versatile.  I want to favor fishing since that will be my heaviest usage.  Tracking well under power would be important so I’m assuming a flat or slightly rockeredboat would be appropriate.  I might also row when fishing solo.  I will fish out of it a lot solo so ease of car topping is also important ( I used to do my Coleman alone and I think the 15′ I had was about 85 lbs).  But I want the ability to hold two for fishing comfortably, or hold three on a day or overnight paddle.  I favor plastic boats for cost and durability. I’m hoping the experts here can help. What have I come up with?  My best guesses so far are: Old Town Discovery 160K Old Town Discovery 133K Old Town Discovery 147 (current front runner) It seems to me that Old Town makes more general purpose boats than the other manufacturers, let me know if I am wrong. Let me know what you think. Thanks a lot, Keith Hatfull Woodbury, MN

Response:

Old Town is OK but consider a Mad River Explorer in Royalex.  They cost a bit more, but have more stability, and load carrying capacity.  They can handle any reasonable whitewater. (The first  open canoe down the Grand Canyon was Jim Shelander’s explorer. )

Response:

If you can take the time paddle every boat that is recommended to you. I am totally biased but I don’t think you will find a better boat for your described purpose than a Dagger Sewannee. 15 feet, reasonably light, and paddles better than you will believe until you try it. Go with the three seat version and venture  into only very mild whitewater in any of this type of  boat. There should be a description at www.Dagger.com Steve Scarborough

Response:

Question:

Well, I’m taking a break from putting up gear and getting caught up at work and thought I would give a quick run down on the trip.

Great trip report Larry thanks! BWCA has been on our "wish list" since college days eons ago….We are going to get there someday!!! sheila

Response:

BTW, let me recommend a couple peices of gear to you. The Outback Oven, we made Pizzas,biscuits, brownies etc. in these ovens all week. They are light and See, some of us Whitewater boaters do paddle flat water once in awhile. Although this was the first time I had paddled an aluminum canoe in 15 years. SYOTR or Lake Larry

        Great trip report Larry.I can still remember the first time I used an outback oven.It was on Isle Royale in a rather remote campsite.We told the hikers in the camp next to us to hold off on their dinner of dehydrated food because we were going to share our pizza when we cooked.Needless to say they thought we were kidding them.The look on their faces when we pulled out our food and started tossing dough was priceless.Now it’s a regular part of my camp kitchen.         Bill Oehl

Response:

<clip BWCA trip report See, some of us Whitewater boaters do paddle flat water once in awhile. Although this was the first time I had paddled an aluminum canoe in 15 years. SYOTR or Lake Larry

I love the Boundary Waters to.  (Quetico where you where)  I have made 8 tripe ranging from 10 – 20 days up there.  Every time has been great.  My last time I pawned my gear off on some friends in big touring canoes and took my WW K1.   I don’t remember the names but Lac la Croix has several very fun rapids and waterfalls.    One was a pretty large (30+ feet) drop with a lot of water going over from one lake into La Croix.  Not long after it on the right are two more rapids (Bottle ?)    If I am remembering the name correctly Bottle was not a waterfall but was a very heinous narrow rapid of at least 150 yards.  About 15 feet wide and as fast a rapid as I have seen.  I wish I remembered the names……   I guess that is an excuse to go pull out the old maps and pictures. Glad you had fun! Scott Bristow

Response:

Great trip report Larry thanks! BWCA has been on our "wish list" since college days eons ago….We are going to get there someday!!! Give it a try! And don’t let kids stop you. This is my second trip with children and every one had a great time.

It’s not the kids! Its the 36 hour drive with Pete only having 2 weeks of leave a year….of course I could leave him home! He is gotten quite good about supporting my outdoors habits……being an at home homeschooling mom definately has its advantages when it comes to traveling! btw your kid tripping tips are great…..we have used a similar strategies when canoe tripping with our gang…. sheila

Response:

Great trip report Larry thanks! BWCA has been on our "wish list" since college days eons ago….We are going to get there someday!!!

Give it a try! And don’t let kids stop you. This is my second trip with children and every one had a great time. A couple of tips for going with kids. Plan your route through smaller lakes with more frequent portages or allow for stops and side hikes along the bigger lakes. The kids didn’t mind portaging (I made mine carry their personal gear , including sleeping bags, as young as eight), but easily get bored on extented paddles in the lakes. There isn’t such a thing as kids portions in the Woods. Plan on full adult meals, take plenty of snacks(jerky and trail mixes are good, so is hard candy) and add 25% for pre teen boys! And take quick drying cloths. Larry

Response:

Great trip report Larry.I can still remember the first time I used an outback oven.It was on Isle Royale in a rather remote campsite.We told the hikers in the camp next to us to hold off on their dinner of dehydrated food because we were going to share our pizza when we cooked.Needless to say they thought we were kidding them.The look on their faces when we pulled out our food and started tossing dough was priceless.Now it’s a regular part of my camp kitchen.    Bill Oehl </PRE</HTML

We took regular pizza mixes (Chef Boyardee) and dried the sauce on a fruit rollup sheet on the food dryer. We had already dried ground beef, peppers, onions and mushrooms. Add a little pepperoni and dried cheese and you have Pizza Supreme in the Wilderness. Soak all your dried stuff before you use it (it will be ready by the time you prepare everything else.).One package will make enough for 4 to 5 pizzas in the Ovens, according to how thick you like your crust. Larry

Response:

Writes: I love the Boundary Waters to.  (Quetico where you where)  I have made 8 tripe ranging from 10 – 20 days up there.  Every time has been great.

While we entered from Quentico, the trip was an the American side of Lac la Croix.It was my first trip an the BWCA side, I think I like the campsites better than most in Quentico. My last time I pawned my gear off on some friends in big touring canoes and took my WW K1.   I don’t remember the names but Lac la Croix has several very fun rapids and waterfalls. One was a pretty large (30+ feet) drop with a lot of water going over from one lake into La Croix.  Not long after

It’s been a very low water year in the area, I didn’t really see anything that had enough water to scape down in my kayak, let alone a 18.5′ alumimun lake canoe! Didn’t get to some of the big entry rivers, though. I would like to try a touring kayak on some of large lakes. Less effected by wind and waves and definely faster and easier to paddle. Well, maybe next trip. SYOTR Larry

Response:

Well, I’m taking a break from putting up gear and getting caught up at work

and thought I would give a quick run down on the trip. Larry, Great rundown of your Lac La Croix trip! After months of planning, getting permits, and arranging shuttles and a boat (for me, I don’t trip enough to justify buying a tripping canoe), then a couple of weeks drying and repackaging food, planning menus, packing, then repacking and packing again to get everything for three people into packs that would fit into a  18.5′ canoe, my family and I took off after work, meeting my friend Darrell on the road in Indiana on the way to Crane Lake, Minnesota, USA. We had decided to drive straight though, a 1100 mile run for me( please kick me in the head if I decide to do that again). Well, after 20 hours on the road, we arrived at Crane Lake. We quickly loaded onto the shuttle boat and off again. After a quick stop at Canadian Customs, we unloaded and loaded onto a ancient school bus for the ride across Dawson Portage. Did you ever try to get 17′ tripping canoes in a bus? I’m not sure that it wouldn’t have been quicker to walk, the bus had to go that slow.

Our thoughts exactly when we went the same route a couple of years ago. We loaded onto another boat and headed to the Zup’s Fish Camp to pick up our permits. We had decided to take advantage of the fact that the Ontario side allowed motors and have them shuttle us down the lake before crossing back into Boundary Waters. Back into the boat and down to the far end of Lac la Croix.

I still maintain the motor restrictions on the U.S. side are ridiculous! Crossing that big of water in a canoe would take forever.  Most people opt to motor the Canadian side and paddle into the smaller lakes for their trips. Did you get the driver of the boat to swing by the Indian pictographs?  They are awesome! I grew up with the Zup family in Ely, MN.  Their family story is quite incredible, having fought the inclusion of their property on Crooked Lake as part of the Boundary Waters in the ’50s and ’60s.  They lost their fight, and that is why they moved their fishing camp to Canada. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lac la Croix is one of the larger border lakes in the BWCA. It’s about 30 miles  from one end to the other , with hundreds of miles of shoreline, bays and islands to explore and fish. After a couple of hours paddling, we decided to establish a  base camp at the head of Lady Boot Bay and then day trip out of there. I had been reluctant to try BWCA because of the requirement to use designated camp sites. I had always felt that this would take away the wilderness feel of the area. I found that I liked the sites, they are well chosen, clean and maintained. The pit latrines were well hidden and the female members of our party thought they were great. In many ways, the sites were in better condition than most of the camp sites I found in Quetico. Snip Tuesday started the changing weather. High winds kept us wind bound all day. Rested up and explored around the Camp. For the rest of the trip, the weather would be clear and 80 F one minute and raining and cold the next. Typical Laurentian Shield weather( they tell me they have nice weather for weeks at a time up here, but I think they just tell that to the tourist.)

Welcome to Minnesota!  One thing is for sure, if you don’t like the weather, wait a day.  You should try our winters!  A couple years ago we had -60 degrrees one Saturday, and one week later it was 40 degrees above zero, with rain! Snip Thursday had the same weather pattern, one minute nice, the next nasty. The rain and the wind picked up around noon. We decided that we had better head for camp, which envolved crossing a fairly large open water section. About 1/3 the way across, the wind picked up and it started to rain in sheets. It quickly producted a 2′ chop with the wind gusty up to 40 mph. A real dicey crossing!! My soon to be teenager and budding Whiterwater Kayaker was having a great time.

The big lakes can get pretty rough at times.  Luckily you had a good experience.  My daughter works at a local resort.  Recently she had a guest ask if there were any water parks close by.  I told her if she is ever asked that again to say ‘Yes, it’s called the Boundary Waters – nature’s water park!’ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He thought this was big time fun ( he still thinks I’m a paddling God, and nothing will happen if I’m in the boat.). We all made it across safely and sit down for some hot coffee liberally braced with Brandy. Since the weather was so changable, decided to stay in camp and make Pizzas in our camp ovens. After 2 hours of cooking Pizzas, everyone had had enough and we settled back to watch the gulls eating the remains of our days catch. The Gulls had spotted were we left the remains of the fish we filletted soon after we arrived. They would fly by every couple of hours to see if we had left dinner yet. On Weds, a couple of Bald Eagles showed up, checking out what the Gulls were doing in the area. On this day, the gulls were very aggressive and attacked one of the eagles and run him off. Thursday, the Eagle didn’t run. The Gulls ignored him until he took off and made a low pass over the bay. You should have seen the Gulls take off!! The next pass, the Eagle flew low over the rocks and snagged the remains of a large Pike on the fly. This was all happening about 30 yards from where we were sitting!! It was better that National Geographic!!

Watching the gulls, bald eagles and ravens can be a real treat! Friday we packed up and paddled back to the Canadian side to be picked up by our shuttle. A quick shower and a great dinner at Zup’s and then back to Crane Lake on Saturday.

We were totally amazed with the wonderful meals prepared at Zup’s fishing camp.  As good as any fine restaurant. For a totally different experience, try Crane Lake in the winter.  We have stayed at one of the resorts on Crane Lake and snowmobiled all over Voyageurs National Park.  Absolutely fantastic!  Lunch at Kettle Falls Hotel, where you can look south and see Canada!  We already have our reservations for next February!  Can hardly wait! Nan

Response:

I still maintain the motor restrictions on the U.S. side are ridiculous! Crossing that big of water in a canoe would take forever.  Most people opt to motor the Canadian side and paddle into the smaller lakes for their trips

True, it is a big lake. but the American side is cut up with islands, peninsulas and bays that offer fairly protected paddling. The no motor restriction is fairly often violated in the passage south of Coleman Island anyway. It would be a great place for a ocean touring kayak. Did you get the driver of the boat to swing by the Indian pictographs? They are awesome!

Yes, but my photo’s didn’t show it as well as you could see it there. Any suggestions? Welcome to Minnesota!  One thing is for sure, if you don’t like the weather, wait a day.  You should try our winters!  A couple years ago we had -60 degrrees one Saturday, and one week later it was 40 degrees above zero, with rain!

No thanks. I was born in the Dakota’s , Artic Hell on the High Plains, which is why I love the southeast USA. I can paddle all winter!! You all talk funny up there anyway :^). The big lakes can get pretty rough at times.  Luckily you had a good experience.  My daughter works at a local resort.  Recently she had a guest ask if there were any water parks close by.  I told her if she is ever asked that again to say ‘Yes, it’s called the Boundary Waters – nature’s water park!’

A calm trip compared to last trip. 6 out of  8 days with high winds, including 3 we should have stayed in camp. And it rained those 6 days too! We were totally amazed with the wonderful meals prepared at Zup’s fishing camp.  As good as any fine restaurant.

They do have a good cook. For a totally different experience, try Crane Lake in the winter.  We have stayed at one of the resorts on Crane Lake and snowmobiled all over Voyageurs National Park.  Absolutely fantastic!  Lunch at Kettle Falls Hotel, where you can look south and see Canada!

I still prefer my water in the liquid state. I did get the info when I was there, it does look interesting. SYOTR or Lake Larry

Response:

Well, I’m taking a break from putting up gear and getting caught up at work and thought I would give a quick run down on the trip. After months of planning, getting permits, and arranging shuttles and a boat (for me, I don’t trip enough to justify buying a tripping canoe), then a couple of weeks drying and repackaging food, planning menus, packing, then repacking and packing again to get everything for three people into packs that would fit into a 18.5′ canoe, my family and I took off after work, meeting my friend Darrell on the road in Indiana on the way to Crane Lake, Minnesota, USA. We had decided to drive straight though, a 1100 mile run for me( please kick me in the head if I decide to do that again). Well, after 20 hours on the road, we arrived at Crane Lake. We quickly loaded onto the shuttle boat and off again. After a quick stop at Canadian Customs, we unloaded and loaded onto a ancient school bus for the ride across Dawson Portage. Did you ever try to get 17′ tripping canoes in a bus? I’m not sure that it wouldn’t have been quicker to walk, the bus had to go that slow. We loaded onto another boat and headed to the Zup’s Fish Camp to pick up our permits. We had decided to take advantage of the fact that the Ontario side allowed motors and have them shuttle us down the lake before crossing back into Boundary Waters. Back into the boat and down to the far end of Lac la Croix. Lac la Croix is one of the larger border lakes in the BWCA. It’s about 30 miles from one end to the other , with hundreds of miles of shoreline, bays and islands to explore and fish. After a couple of hours paddling, we decided to establish a base camp at the head of Lady Boot Bay and then day trip out of there. I had been reluctant to try BWCA because of the requirement to use designated camp sites. I had always felt that this would take away the wilderness feel of the area. I found that I liked the sites, they are well chosen, clean and maintained. The pit latrines were well hidden and the female members of our party thought they were great. In many ways, the sites were in better condition than most of the camp sites I found in Quetico. After setting up camp, I went out on the point and soon caught the first of many Northern Pike. I hadn’t fished for Pike in a few years,managed to let him bit my fingers with his needle sharp teeth. That consigned him to the grill that evening. Sunday, our first full day, we spent fishing and exploring the bays along Coleman Island. My wife, Jean lost a big Pike and my son Nathan landed one 28" long, his first Northern. The winds picked up in the afternoon, so we made a run back to camp. A big supper and more fish on the fire. If you have never tried Pike fillets wrapped in foil and cooked over a fire with butter and lemon pepper, you have missed one of lifes true pleasures. Monday, Darrell and I slipped off to do a little exploring and fishing on our own. Caught a few fish, paddled around a bit on the Mainland side of the bay before heading back. Tuesday started the changing weather. High winds kept us wind bound all day. Rested up and explored around the Camp. For the rest of the trip, the weather would be clear and 80 F one minute and raining and cold the next. Typical Laurentian Shield weather( they tell me they have nice weather for weeks at a time up here, but I think they just tell that to the tourist.). Weds the weather let up enough for a day trip into a couple of surrounding lakes that envolved a couple of short portages. I had hoped to see a Moose, but when your paddling with a 10, 11, and 12 year old, that sucker would have to have been deaf not to hear us coming. Oh well. My wife caught her first Pike! I almost fell over laughing watching her land it! The weather went to Hell at lunch, so we made a dash back to the Camp. Thursday had the same weather pattern, one minute nice, the next nasty. The rain and the wind picked up around noon. We decided that we had better head for camp, which envolved crossing a fairly large open water section. About 1/3 the way across, the wind picked up and it started to rain in sheets. It quickly producted a 2′ chop with the wind gusty up to 40 mph. A real dicey crossing!! My soon to be teenager and budding Whiterwater Kayaker was having a great time. He thought this was big time fun ( he still thinks I’m a paddling God, and nothing will happen if I’m in the boat.). We all made it across safely and sit down for some hot coffee liberally braced with Brandy. Since the weather was so changable, decided to stay in camp and make Pizzas in our camp ovens. After 2 hours of cooking Pizzas, everyone had had enough and we settled back to watch the gulls eating the remains of our days catch. The Gulls had spotted were we left the remains of the fish we filletted soon after we arrived. They would fly by every couple of hours to see if we had left dinner yet. On Weds, a couple of Bald Eagles showed up, checking out what the Gulls were doing in the area. On this day, the gulls were very aggressive and attacked one of the eagles and run him off. Thursday, the Eagle didn’t run. The Gulls ignored him until he took off and made a low pass over the bay. You should have seen the Gulls take off!! The next pass, the Eagle flew low over the rocks and snagged the remains of a large Pike on the fly. This was all happening about 30 yards from where we were sitting!! It was better that National Geographic!! Friday we packed up and paddled back to the Canadian side to be picked up by our shuttle. A quick shower and a great dinner at Zup’s and then back to Crane Lake on Saturday. BTW, let me recommend a couple peices of gear to you. The Outback Oven, we made Pizzas,biscuits, brownies etc. in these ovens all week. They are light and compact. Zip off leg supplex pants, they dry quick and they were by far the favorite. We had several different brands, liked them all. Well suited for the rapid changing weather on the Canadian Shield. See, some of us Whitewater boaters do paddle flat water once in awhile. Although this was the first time I had paddled an aluminum canoe in 15 years. SYOTR or Lake Larry  

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Question:

I am curious.  I have trolled some large blue water flies for marlin, Dorado, Wahoo.  Is it best to troll the fly with the popper head on it?         The last time out I was having the best luck trolling Large white flash flies, But were trolling a lot before any hook ups.  None had poppers on them.            This time I will also have flies rigged on other rods sitting on the boat for fast casting while fish are being landed.  I saw a swarm of fish whenever we caught fish last time we were in Mexico.  It seemed to me that this was the way to go.  That way my wife or I can grab them and hopefully get some hook ups while we are stopped and fighting fish.         I am new at blue water fishing, and have only got 4 trips under my belt so far.  Any information on ways to improve my blue water experience would be greatly appreciated.           I have seen a lot of videos talking about running teasers to bring fish in.  Can anybody give me some information on putting together teasers and what to use for them, Fish Feathers Beer cans Bananas?                        Thanks for any help you may have.                               Randy Pugh

Response:

Try trolling hookless baits, and throwing the fly at any fish that come up. Strip out 50 feet of line into a bucket so you are ready for instant casts. Jeff Schaeffer

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Question:

Have opportunity to vacation in Breckenridge, Colorado this August and wonder if I will be near any trout streams or rivers if I choose this place. Any info. on spots, guides, etc. would be appreciated. Thanks, DLowe

        there is a fly shop in dillon, near the blue river, which i think is called "the columbine" that was very helpful to my son and myself a couple years ago when we took an unguided shot at colorado trout.  i think they have a sister shop in frisco.  the blue, itself, was a great piece of water.         good luck                 a. wayne harrison

Response:

The Mountain Angler in Breckenridge is a great shop.  Well stocked and the post a map on the wall with directions and driving times to most public places within 2 hours.  They also post a chalkboard with fishing conditions and flies that are working based upon feedback from client visits.  They also have a variety of guided trips to public and private waters.  They are art 311 Main St (in the mall) ph 303-453-4665, last number I have.  The Gold Medal Fly Shop in Silverthorn 303-478-8961, 1130 Blue River Pky, on the road to Kremmling on the north side of town is a great, funky type fly shop.  Look for a small house in the trees, you will probably drive by it the first time.  Good selection of flies and terminal gear, very helpful owner.  It is always helpful to support the business by buying a few flies (or a $500 rod!) for their free advice.   Great fishing in the area.  The Blue on the north side of Breckenridge is quick,  the area of the Blue below Dillon Dam in Silverthorn directly behind the Outlet Malls! is Gold Medal, and many other places within an hours’ drive are excellent is the water is down to normal levels.  Last year it was late before fishing was good.  Also, the COLORADO ANGLING GUIDE by Chuck Frothergill (spelling?) is a great book and well worth the $28.  Good luck, I will be there in July and again in August.

Response:

Have opportunity to vacation in Breckenridge, Colorado this August and wonder if I will be near any trout streams or rivers if I choose this place. Any info. on spots, guides, etc. would be appreciated. Thanks, DLowe

Response:

Question:

Last night I caught a catfish on a plastic crawdad!  It was one of those Berkeley micros and the catfish was about a foot long.  It sure caught me by surprise when I saw what I had caught.  This isn’t the first time I caught a catfish on artificial baits, either.  Has anyone else had this happen very often? Eric Johnson

Caught a catfish on a deep diving plug while trolling.

Response:

Last night I caught a catfish on a plastic crawdad!  It was one of those Berkeley micros and the catfish was about a foot long.  It sure caught me by surprise when I saw what I had caught.  This isn’t the first time I caught a catfish on artificial baits, either.  Has anyone else had this happen very often? Eric Johnson Caught a catfish on a deep diving plug while trolling.

 I’ve had a number of customers write me about catching catfish on my M-Baits, seems they aren’t as ‘finicky’ as their feline counterparts!!        **** Mike Muncy’s ****                     "M-Baits" Handcrafted Cedar Crankbaits        http://www.fishingworld.com/M-Baits/    http://www.open.org/gary/fishinhole.htm

Response:

Once anglers understand the concept that catfish are opportunistic predators, they will begin to understand better how to fish for them and the underestimated sport they represent.

Response:

Last night I caught a catfish on a plastic crawdad!  It was one of those Berkeley micros and the catfish was about a foot long.  It sure caught me by surprise when I saw what I had caught.  This isn’t the first time I caught a catfish on artificial baits, either.  Has anyone else had this happen very often? Eric Johnson Caught a catfish on a deep diving plug while trolling.

Eric…         I have caught a catfish on a rubber worm(14-15" in length),  and have seen them caught on a jig and pig (7lb channel cat) and a tail spinner (12-13" in length) — http://www.iquest.net/~kidd "Trust men, and they will be true to you; treat them greatly, and they will show themselves great."   Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-82)

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Eric Johnson) writes: This isn’t the first time I caught a catfish on artificial baits, either.  Has anyone else had this happen very often?

I fish a tailwater on the Ohio River for sauger, smallmouth, etc. using 1/4-1/2 ounce ball head jigs and curly-tail plastic jigs in the 2-3" size. Several times a year I’ll catch catfish on the jigs in this very swift water. The cats are almost always flatheads, which  seem to prefer live bait (or an imitation, like my jigs). I also catch lots of carp, and they are caught in the mouth, not snagged or foul hooked. Years ago, I remember fishing for bluegill with flyrods and poppers when my fishing buddy caught a small channel cat on his popper. Not all that uncommon.

Response:

Last night I caught a catfish on a plastic crawdad!  It was one of those Berkeley micros and the catfish was about a foot long.  It sure caught me by surprise when I saw what I had caught.  This isn’t the first time I caught a catfish on artificial baits, either.  Has anyone else had this happen very often?

Eric, Last year I caught two catfish in the 3 to 4 lb. range on Kastmasters while fishing for bass.  As you said it sure is a suprise, but a pleasant one, because, they were alfully good eating. Sue

Response:

Last night I caught a catfish on a plastic crawdad!  It was one of those Berkeley micros and the catfish was about a foot long.  It sure caught me by surprise when I saw what I had caught.  This isn’t the first time I caught a catfish on artificial baits, either.  Has anyone else had this happen very often?

While trolling sparkletails in the Wolf River at Winneconne we often catch catfish (flatheads) from 5 to 18 lbs.  Occasionally, huge fish broke our lines. We assumed these, too, must be catfish. — Bob Mittelstadt Fox Lake, Wisconsin

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A couple of close friends and myself are planning a trip to the area near (50 miles or so) Lake Temagami this fall for some camping and Walleye/pike fishing. I am interested in any information on camping recommendations and locations in the Temagami area.  We are, as always, rather strapped for cash and looking for some fairly remote place where we can drive to and set up our tent for a week of fishing.  We are quiet, conscientious, and pack out everything we brought in.   I would also be interested in a reasonably priced cabin that would hold up to possibly six fishermen and is close to good fishing… Emile "Give a man a fish, and he’ll feed his family for a day. Teach him to fish, and he’s gone the whole damn weekend!"                                 — My Wife!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -A couple of close friends and myself are planning a trip to the area near (50 miles or so) Lake Temagami this fall for some camping and Walleye/pike fishing. I am interested in any information on camping recommendations and locations in the Temagami area.  We are, as always, rather strapped for cash and looking for some fairly remote place where we can drive to and set up our tent for a week of fishing.  We are quiet, conscientious, and pack out everything we brought in.   I would also be interested in a reasonably priced cabin that would hold up to possibly six fishermen and is close to good fishing… Emile "Give a man a fish, and he’ll feed his family for a day. Teach him to fish, and he’s gone the whole damn weekend!"                                — My Wife!

Try the Montreal River.. anywhere; but why not go a few miles further and fish the Shining Tree Area which is not hit so hard in the summer. Or try Longpoint Lodge on Longoint Lk just outside Elk Lake(reasonable rates and good fishing), Or Bullocks Camp at Gowganda. ( Great Walleye and NP Lk). Any of those is better than anything around Temagami IMHO. Temagami area lakes just get pounded heavier each year.

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 Last night I caught a catfish on a plastic crawdad!  It was  one of those Berkeley micros and the catfish was about a foot  long.  It sure caught me by surprise when I saw what I had  caught.  This isn’t the first time I caught a catfish on  artificial baits, either.  Has anyone else had this happen  very often? If I remember correctly, the Illinois state record channel cat was caught by a bass angler using a plastic worm. I myself have caught a channel cat on a fly rod while using a popper for small bass/bluegill. Jay —      Many men go fishing all their lives without knowing that      it is not fish they are after.                                           Henry David Thoreau

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: Last night I caught a catfish on a plastic crawdad!  It was : one of those Berkeley micros and the catfish was about a foot : long.  It sure caught me by surprise when I saw what I had : caught.  This isn’t the first time I caught a catfish on : artificial baits, either.  Has anyone else had this happen : very often? : Eric Johnson A guy I knew once caught a big catfish at night on a Hula Popper.

My boy caught two channel cats from a lake and a flathead from a river using a spinnerbait.  He was fishing for Bass.

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: Last night I caught a catfish on a plastic crawdad!  It was : one of those Berkeley micros and the catfish was about a foot : long.  It sure caught me by surprise when I saw what I had : caught.  This isn’t the first time I caught a catfish on : artificial baits, either.  Has anyone else had this happen : very often? : Eric Johnson

A guy I knew once caught a big catfish at night on a Hula Popper.

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essex.heartland.net writes Last night I caught a catfish on a plastic crawdad!  It was one of those Berkeley micros and the catfish was about a foot long.  It sure caught me by surprise when I saw what I had caught.  This isn’t the first time I caught a catfish on artificial baits, either.  Has anyone else had this happen very often? Eric Johnson

Having fished for MANY years, I thought I has seen everything… Pike on a crappie jig, Musky on a doughball (see the Md. State record!) and a huge channel cat on bass popper. Until the day my brother took me out to his favorite spot on Lake Arthur in Pa.  "The bass are tearing up Jitter-Bugs on the surface in the evening", He promised. He demonstrated by flipping out a huge jointed ‘Bug and promptly hooking a huge fish that took us 20 minutes to get to the boat!  Suspecting one of the huge Tiger Muskies that Arthur is famous for, I grabbed the net and braced myself.  Well, it wasn’t a Bass after all… It was a 31" CARP!!!   Emile Boulanger Hook, Line, & Sinker! inc.

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Last night I caught a catfish on a plastic crawdad!  It was one of those Berkeley micros and the catfish was about a foot long.  It sure caught me by surprise when I saw what I had caught.  This isn’t the first time I caught a catfish on artificial baits, either.  Has anyone else had this happen very often? Eric Johnson

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: Last night I caught a catfish on a plastic crawdad!  It was : one of those Berkeley micros and the catfish was about a foot : long.  It sure caught me by surprise when I saw what I had : caught.  This isn’t the first time I caught a catfish on : artificial baits, either.  Has anyone else had this happen : very often? : Eric Johnson

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Last night I caught a catfish on a plastic crawdad!  It was one of those Berkeley micros and the catfish was about a foot long.  It sure caught me by surprise when I saw what I had caught.  This isn’t the first time I caught a catfish on artificial baits, either.  Has anyone else had this happen very often? Eric Johnson

Eric,         Would you believe, just last weekend I caught a 14# channel cat on a spinner bait while fishing for bass in a small county park here in SW Iowa. You talk abbout a surprise when you set the hook thinking  a 2 or 3 lb. bass and all of a sudden you’re being towed all over the lake for 15 mins.         BTW that was the only fish boated all afternoon.                         GITABIGUN, E. Bruce Hullman IRC: BassBug   "There’s only two things that excite a man, expensive toys and real expensive toys."                         Red Green

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Question:

I am headed down to Bend, Oregon this weekend and wanted to do a little fly fishing.  I know only portions of the Deschutes are open at this time (Bend north to Lake Billy Chinook) and was wondering if anyone had any advice on where to go and what to use.  Email me directly…and thanks in advance. Kevin Curry Linfield College

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I am headed down to Bend, Oregon this weekend and wanted to do a little fly fishing.  I know only portions of the Deschutes are open at this time (Bend north to Lake Billy Chinook) and was wondering if anyone had any advice on where to go and what to use.  Email me directly…and thanks in advance. Kevin Curry Linfield College

Kevin and other Deschutes flyfishers: Check out the Online Gillie section at Flyfishers Online.  A long-time guide on the river has begun writing monthly articles as well as contributing condition reports for the river. Online Gillie is at: http://www.flyfishers.com:80/flyfishers-online/flyfishers-gillie.html Condition Reports are at: http://www.flyfishers.com:80/flyfishers-online/flyfishers-reports.html Cy Happy, a guide and partner at Ray’s River Dories (also at Flyfishers Online) floated Trout Creek to Maupin a week ago and reported that the high water flow had changed the bank topography quite considerably. For instance, at the favorite island lunch stop just south of North Junction he reported that the water had swept a good number of the bankside trees away, leaving the channel quite navigable; a change, indeed, from the past few years. Hope this helps. Best, Peter Yoakum, Editor Flyfishers Online

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