Question:

Care to share your hobbies?

Large format B&W photography 4-Season camping Fly fishing Hunting Trapping Botony Geology Thomas Vodacek Stagnant Brewery Brewing Since 1982

Response:

Care to share your hobbies? Large format B&W photography 4-Season camping Fly fishing Hunting Trapping Botony Geology Thomas Vodacek Stagnant Brewery Brewing Since 1982 Street Rodding and motorcycle riding.

collecting trains and cooking. Brewing since1995

Response:

Care to share your hobbies?

Brewing’s about it anymore, and I don’t get as much time to do that as I’d like. I used to love photography, especially sports photography.  I used to go to hockey games alot and take pictures of the players.  I live in Philadelphia.  I have an autographed 8 x 10 that I took of Flyers goalie Pelle Lindbergh that may actually be the very last autograph he ever signed before he died.  I wish I could prove it.  I caught him outside the stadium right after the last game he played, which was against Washington.  He signed the picture, then I watched him get in his car, and I heard the next morning he was dead.   I also have lots of old hockey, baseball, and football cards. Aside from beer, I also make some wine, but mostly just from kits. I like to cook, and make bread.  Actually made bread before I made beer.  Would like to try making cheese at some point.  It all seems to go toghether.  I always wanted to learn to make desserts, like cakes and stuff. Bill

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collecting trains and cooking. Brewing since1995

Just *do* you cook a train? :0) I’m hoping to swing by Valley Park, MO on this summer’s vacation to see the "Whittle Shortline" folks and their wooden trains. My son’s not old enough for highly scaled N gauge yet.

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Care to share your hobbies?

Computers & networking Photography Competitive pistol and rifle shooting Reloading for pistol and rifle Cooking Read a lot Racquetball Billiards/Pool Politics Kingfisher NRA-ILA, GOA, JPFO, SAF, CCRKBA, COA, LSAS, LEAA.  Money is a weapon. When guns are outlawed, politicians will still have armed bodyguards. It’s not who votes that counts; it’s who counts the votes.

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Let’s see now….. 1. Home brewing……Oooorah! 2. RC model building (and flying). 3. Keeping planted aquariums. 4. Gardening. 5. Woodworking….or as SWMBO calls it….screwing around in the garage. Dan

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Pinball machines Radio Controlled aircraft Robotics Hunting Fishing Camping while hunting/fishing Restoring a 1968 VW God, I need to trim my hobbies down a bit! Darren Brewing since 1995

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Care to share your hobbies?

Swimming Reading Writing Photography Driving my Miata Cooking Gardening Cat — The Cat House http://www.feline.org Phone+Fax: 877.278.8075

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Care to share your hobbies?

Computers Brewing Biology & Genetics in general Physics Science Fiction & Fantasy Classical Music Photography — Fred Stone

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Care to share your hobbies?

Child care and graduate school. Phil

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Tinkering with computers, and collecting obscure (mostly jazz/rock) CDs.  And I will be adding meadmaking to the list any day now! —

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Care to share your hobbies?

Collecting Military Vehicles (M35A2 Deuce-and-a-half, and a Hummer) Ham Radio Cooking — Rich Weinkauf, N8QLT Cruise Missile Coordinates: 42d 28.05′N 083d 22.87′W HummerID 97.5 Fly Yellow Wagon 1971 Kaiser M35A2  **  MVPA #20486 Load Warrior Website http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/Terminus/loadwarrior/ M35 Cool Stuff Site     http://www.highprofilevehicles.com

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Care to share your hobbies?

Member of the SCA (renaissance re-enactment) Leatherwork Digital photography candle/perfume/balm making (I seriously dislike the aromatherapy tag) Winemaking

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Question:

Build your first one starting with a blank.  You might look at and research http://www.gink.com/shopcart/products/gehrke_rods_2.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have made a decision. I will attempt to build my own bamboo rod! There I said it, it’s official. Now where do I start? I found one site by Bruce Conner. Very informative and inspiring. Some of the other sites seemed to lean toward substantial investments of tools. Bruce briefly describes home made and common tools that will do the job. For those of you that make your own rods, think back. What do you wish you had known then, what you know now? Where can I be pointed. Realize I have absolutely nothing, no knowledge or tools. Green as they come. Thanks boys, Jamie Here is Bruce’s site. http://kalypso.cybercom.net/~bconner/index.html?57,11

Response:

I have made a decision. I will attempt to build my own bamboo rod! There I said it, it’s official. Now where do I start? I found one site by Bruce Conner. Very informative and inspiring. Some of the other sites seemed to lean toward substantial investments of tools. Bruce briefly describes home made and common tools that will do the job. For those of you that make your own rods, think back. What do you wish you had known then, what you know now? Where can I be pointed. Realize I have absolutely nothing, no knowledge or tools. Green as they come. Thanks boys, Jamie Here is Bruce’s site. http://kalypso.cybercom.net/~bconner/index.html?57,11

Response:

Jamie, Welcome to the addiction that is bamboo.  Like all other things fly fishing, once you’ve got the bug, it’s hard to shake.  I myself have been into this thing for about nine months now and, although I haven’t built a rod yet, have found it to be a rewarding and challenging pastime.  One thing that helps is to have a lot of patience and, at times, persistence. I feel that, like fly fishing or tying, you certainly can make some considerable monetary investments when getting into this hobby.  And there is nothing wrong with those purchases if your budget allows.  But that certainly doesn’t need to be the case if you are working with a limited budget.  There is a wealth of information on the internet and in books on building your own tools and equipment, as well as info about building the rods themselves.  Certainly Bruce’s site is a _great_ starting point.  I think that it was one of the first sites I came across, if not the first. Another site that I have found very helpful is the Rodmakers’ listserve site: http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/ .  It’s packed with helpful information.  Especially the listserve archives.  If you have any questions on a bamboo rodbuilding topic, check the archive first, it’s probably in there.  You will probably want to join the mailing list as well.  There is a link on the site. I would also recommend checking out some of the many helpful books that are out there.  You don’t even have to buy them, if you can find them in your local library.  A library near me has a copy of Everett Garrison’s book, although I’m starting to realize that this it a stroke of luck.  But you will probably end up buying one anyway: it’s a good thing to have on hand. I have read the Garrison book (_very_ detailed, but tends to be a bit anal), and I own the George Maurer book, which is excellent.  Another very good book that I have read is the one by Wayne Cattanach.  He also has videos to accompany the book, which are fun to watch. You also might want to check around and see if there are any builders near you.  You might be surprised. I think the most helpful advice I can give you as far as equipment goes is this:  if you can afford a set of planing forms, BUY THEM!  Don’t get me wrong, it is possible to build your own.  There is an excellent site by a Thomas Penrose that gives detailed instructions on doing so: http://www.geocities.com/penr0295/forms.htm .  I am building my own forms based on these plans.  But be warned, this is the part that requires a lot of patience and persistence.  Plus it’s not a whole lot of fun.  On the plus side, I have learned some things about metalworking.  But if you can afford it, buy a set.  There are people out there offering them for around $350, which isn’t too bad at all considering the amount of work it takes to build them. Anyway, good luck!  If you have any questions (and I’m sure you will) post them to the Rodmakers’ listserve.  Or drop me an email.  I’d be glad to offer what limited knowledge I can. HTH. Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have made a decision. I will attempt to build my own bamboo rod!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another site that I have found very helpful is the Rodmakers’ listserve site: http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/ .  It’s packed with helpful information.  Especially the listserve archives.  If you have any questions on a bamboo rodbuilding topic, check the archive first, it’s probably in there.  You will probably want to join the mailing list as well.  There is a link on the site. I think the most helpful advice I can give you as far as equipment goes is this:  if you can afford a set of planing forms, BUY THEM!  Don’t get me wrong, it is possible to build your own.  There is an excellent site by a Thomas Penrose that gives detailed instructions on doing so: http://www.geocities.com/penr0295/forms.htm .  I am building my own forms based on these plans.  But be warned, this is the part that requires a lot of patience and persistence.  Plus it’s not a whole lot of fun.  On the plus side, I have learned some things about metalworking.  But if you can afford it, buy a set.  There are people out there offering them for around $350, which isn’t too bad at all considering the amount of work it takes to build them.

Jamie, Keith gives you some good tips here. These are two excellent resources. The Penrose page is really good on certain aspects of the process.  I think the best thing to get up to speed is to read the ENTIRE archives on the rodmakers site. It took me about a month of going at it off and on but it will give you the history of a lot that is going on with the listserve now and will answer a lot of questions better than in the books (but will not answer all- so get the books). You will be way more knowledgeable at the end of that and will be able to make a lot of informed decisions about how you want to approach it, what to buy and what to make, etc. etc. Also, be sure to print out any part of the archives that strikes you as useful as you go through it and start a notebook. This will help when you remember a great tip but can’t find it with the archives search engine (Frank Stetzer’s page). Good luck. Jon

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have made a decision. I will attempt to build my own bamboo rod! There I said it, it’s official. Now where do I start? I found one site by Bruce Conner. Very informative and inspiring. Some of the other sites seemed to lean toward substantial investments of tools. Bruce briefly describes home made and common tools that will do the job. For those of you that make your own rods, think back. What do you wish you had known then, what you know now? Where can I be pointed. Realize I have absolutely nothing, no knowledge or tools. Green as they come. Thanks boys, Jamie Here is Bruce’s site. http://kalypso.cybercom.net/~bconner/index.html?57,11

Jamie, http://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.shtml This will get you started. Kiyu

Response:

Question:

I just got back from a trip to the eastern sierras in which I landed the largest trout of my brief fly fishing career.  At one of the lakes in the mammoth basin, I set off in my float tube, fly rod in hand, freezing cold.  The morning was in the low 40’s, not my favorite temperature.  I trolled the lake for three hours until 9AM until i thought i felt a leak in my waders (bad).  Cold water in your waders is very unpleasant at best but getting blanked while fish are jumping around you is much worse.  So I decided to take one more pass through the outlet part of the lake.  I tied on a woolly worm, and was immediately into a small trout.  After letting it go, a nice breeze came over the lake, allowing me to be more agressive with my casting and presentation.  I landed and released several more 12" trout and the soggy feeling in my waders was increasing at an alarming rate.  I decided to head in after a few more casts, i was losing feeling in my toes.  While carefully stripping in line, i felt a gentle tug, trout!  I immediately set the hook into what i thought was a rock.  It wouldnt budge, until i started to peel off line from my reel.  I eventually netted the rainbow and noticed its mouth was forming into a hook jaw.  This was the largest trout i had caught until that point and i was quite satisfied and ready to head in. However, a nagging feeling that overcame the numbness from the lower half of my body made me cast one more time.  Another gentle tug, and I quickly played the small trout in by hand.  But it wasnt small.  No, it was huge by my standards.  As soon as i played in half of my line, the thing took off screaming like a torpedo.  There is nothing quite as sweet sounding as the singing of a click and pawl reel.  It took me 10 minutes to bring that huge rainbow in, i missed it on my first attempt at netting it because the darned thing wouldn’t fit into the net.  I probably pissed it off because it took another blistering run, taking me into my backing.  I was afraid it would break off, 2lb tippet isnt the sturdiest line available.  I eventually got it in, the thing was 24" long and looked more like a salmon than a trout.  But it was beautiful. Now I’m more hooked on flyfishing than ever. (But i still was tempted into flinging kastmasters for newly stocked trout the next day :])

Response:

Steve wrote (good story snipped): I just got back from a trip to the eastern sierras in which I landed the largest trout of my brief fly fishing career

Congratulations!  Sounded like a great time.  You have definitely caught the bug from the sounds of it. Warren

Response:

Right on man!! Sounds like a great time! Forrest FlyFishingREVIEW.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got back from a trip to the eastern sierras in which I landed the largest trout of my brief fly fishing career.  At one of the lakes in the mammoth basin, I set off in my float tube, fly rod in hand, freezing cold.  The morning was in the low 40’s, not my favorite temperature. I trolled the lake for three hours until 9AM until i thought i felt a leak in my waders (bad).  Cold water in your waders is very unpleasant at best but getting blanked while fish are jumping around you is much worse.  So I decided to take one more pass through the outlet part of the lake.  I tied on a woolly worm, and was immediately into a small trout.  After letting it go, a nice breeze came over the lake, allowing me to be more agressive with my casting and presentation.  I landed and released several more 12" trout and the soggy feeling in my waders was increasing at an alarming rate.  I decided to head in after a few more casts, i was losing feeling in my toes.  While carefully stripping in line, i felt a gentle tug, trout!  I immediately set the hook into what i thought was a rock.  It wouldnt budge, until i started to peel off line from my reel.  I eventually netted the rainbow and noticed its mouth was forming into a hook jaw.  This was the largest trout i had caught until that point and i was quite satisfied and ready to head in. However, a nagging feeling that overcame the numbness from the lower half of my body made me cast one more time.  Another gentle tug, and I quickly played the small trout in by hand.  But it wasnt small.  No, it was huge by my standards.  As soon as i played in half of my line, the thing took off screaming like a torpedo.  There is nothing quite as sweet sounding as the singing of a click and pawl reel.  It took me 10 minutes to bring that huge rainbow in, i missed it on my first attempt at netting it because the darned thing wouldn’t fit into the net.  I probably pissed it off because it took another blistering run, taking me into my backing.  I was afraid it would break off, 2lb tippet isnt the sturdiest line available.  I eventually got it in, the thing was 24" long and looked more like a salmon than a trout.  But it was beautiful. Now I’m more hooked on flyfishing than ever. (But i still was tempted into flinging kastmasters for newly stocked trout the next day :])

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Now I’m more hooked on flyfishing than ever. (But i still was tempted into flinging kastmasters for newly stocked trout the next day :])

I have a feeling that the kastmasters don’t have much of a future. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.cgocable.net/~pcharles/index.html

Response:

Question:

Beleive it or not, we have discussed it. If your looking for answers to your walleye questions why not join The Walleye List, the Internet

Question:

If anyone going there try the Thunder Creek series of Streamers about size 4 in Brown and dirty yellow belley- Killers – Almost a fish per cast on Saturday 11-14-98

Response:

I have Keith Fulsher’s "Tying and Fishing the Thunder Creek Series". They are my favorite streamers and I have always done well with them. — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Wading Boots, Making Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If anyone going there try the Thunder Creek series of Streamers about size 4 in Brown and dirty yellow belley- Killers – Almost a fish per cast on Saturday 11-14-98

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Question:

[snip] Cat fishing there with a fly rod dead drifting a simple worm on the limestone shelves just below the dam at Waterville is probably some of the finest sport known. [snip] Is that really you, George – or is your shadow posting again? Didn’t you recently go ballistic over someone using fly gear with bait, George? Hypocrite, George??

_______HEY MAN, give me a little slack please. How can a boy be a hypocrite at the age of 12? George — MZ

Response:

[snip] Cat fishing there with a fly rod dead drifting a simple worm on the limestone shelves just below the dam at Waterville is probably some of the finest sport known.

[snip] Is that really you, George – or is your shadow posting again? Didn’t you recently go ballistic over someone using fly gear with bait, George? Hypocrite, George??

Response:

Steelhead in the Maumee River now?!!!  Along with the Walleye runs that have been showing up for the last 25 years?  I happen to know the Maumee River like no man alive.  I grew up on it.  Whitehouse, Waterville, Monclova, Ohio area.  Cat fishing there with a fly rod dead drifting a simple worm on the limestone shelves just below the dam at Waterville is probably some of the finest sport known.  Used to club carp there.  Has a lot of drop offs in order to get out there.  Ron Kinkaid in Whitehouse Ohio knows that area even better than me because he still fishes it and you forget things over the years.  The Maumee, named because a crying Indian baby at Turkey Foot Rock was whimpering ma-me, mau-me is how it was named . . . believe it or not.  All the General Anthony Wayne Signs are of my design and invention back in 1953 – 54.  The entire bust and hat and everything.  General Mad Anthony Wayne is the logo for Anthony Wayne High School where I graduated in 1954.  Went directly from H.S. into Flight Training for the U.S.A.F.  Was the first H.S. Graduate in the United States to qualify for fighter pilot school via Chanute Air Force Base in the United States.  I’m kind of proud of that Lee. Yah, I’m an old Buckeye Bronco from Ohio, you betcha!  Used to walk to school (Monclova Grade School) along Swan Creek everyday, even in the winter.  Loved it so.  Chuck Holloway still lives on that road along Swan Creek.  Good place to hunt Wood Duck when the season was in but now not so much as it is basically only a nesting area now, all the way down to Wreckerly Road and where the old county dump used to be, where I used to shoot rats with a .22 single shot.  Great sport!  Rat hunting. Lou Klewer, the ex-outdoor editor of the Toledo Blade lived on Wreckerly Road and I bought my first and most favorite rifle and caliber from Lou. A pre-64 Model 70 in the .220 Swift, which still is my most favorite of all calibers. If God said I had to settle for only one Rifle it would be the .220 Swift.  You betcha!  (Once again) Anyhow Lee, where in Toledo do you live?  I hope this post you aren’t bored with.  You just brought back memories.  I’ll be flying into Toledo Express this spring, a few more weeks or so away.  I have a brother living in Sylvania and Whitehouse, Ohio.  Plus, I always visit Ron Kinkaid.  He lives directly a cross the road from A.W. High School. Have to run Lee.  I knew there was something about you I liked. George Gehrke — MZ — MZ

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Question:

: Oh, and you might wish to reconsider that open invitation for anyone to : join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting : for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up : at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on : your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Especially one over 6 feet tall.

And sometimes that’s not enough. Steve

Response:

You wouldn’t want to wake up at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Steve

Well, yes, he would. Mitch

Response:

join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew.

Bullshit.  It’s why I keep both my waders and my beer near the back door. TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – T-Bone, When you’re under sustained attack it can be easy to let it get you down eventually. Don’t forget that taking any stand outside of the crowd (herd) makes you a target, particularly for the lowest common denominator of which there are the greatest number. These are also the ones that seldom have anything to add other than a "me too" or to attack someone without any positive input. Thus, you have to just write off the clowns that have nothing more to say other than to let vituperative spittle dribble onto their keyboards. Many of those posts remind me of a Dilbert comic where Dilbert and Wally are having a flamewar via the net between adjacent work cubicles. Dilbert is flexing his finger muscles and says "Come on flameboy, just try me" (quote may not be exact). The point being that the net lets those that are afraid to voice an independent opinion or that consider adding a five letter word to a string of 4-letterers to be intellectual discourse to have input without fear of retaliation. You have to just let it be water off a CDC. The net is the electronic Hyde Park. Everyone has a voice (if you have a computer, the electronic soapbox, of course). Hell, even Powlesland says something interesting every 20 or 30 posts or so (statistics not verified). Those that try to shout down other voices they don’t like should not be given your full consideration. Just ignore them. It’s just white noise in the background. Jon

Sounds like its T-bone affirmation time. T-bone, your good enough, your smart enough, and gosh darnit, (many) people (on this ng) like you.  Hang in there, baby.  Just go eat a few little wild brookies.  Always makes me feel better. Brett INFORMED and ENLIGHTEND C&R

Response:

While I agree with everything you said re: T-Bone, I disagree strongly with your statement that fly fishing is a pastime not a sport. The Webster’s Dictionary has as one definition of sport, "an activity pursued for pleasure involving the hunting, taking or killing of wild animals, game or fish."

That’s a definition that will get us in trouble, eventually.  I think it’s important to differentiate between blood sports (even if it’s C&R) and the games people play for fun.  This "sport" also requires a measure of responsibility toward nature, which other sports do not.  The anti-everything crowd has a hey-day with any activity that even occasionally kills something in the name of sport.  We need another label… — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

Response:

T-Bone, A. If I am ever in CO you can count on me to ruin your health for several days. We will     probably do some fishing also. B. I can remember several of your posts including saving your dog, topless float trips, promising     to post GIFs of you and your buds removing living whitefish heads with your teeth and the ever     popular C&R vs C&K without resorting to any ’save’ files. C. I may not always agree with your opions but I will defend your right etc etc D. Always remember what I think when someone treats me as you have been treated; "Some people     are above me and some BLOW ME !". E. I live by the following creed when dealing with these people; "Life is a question of mind and     matter, I don’t mind and they don’t matter". The only editor a man needs is honesty. As you were, carry on. — "The true Angler is content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo

Response:

Hello thoughtful readers,

Well, here’s your first mistake Tim. You’re assuming that anyone with access to a keyboard can pound out something intelligent… I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here. <snip

Yes you have, and I for one appreciate it. As often as not, I’ve disagreed with you, but I’ve been a lot more pissed off at the people who would attack you rather join in a civilized discussion of what you’ve said. This _is_ a discussion group is it not? <snip   I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes

To all you bitchers an’ moaners out there- who would you have to bitch an’ moan about if were not for the inimitable Mr. T-Bone? I’ll tell ya- you’d be bitchin’ an’ moanin’ at the same Sage vs. Loomis vs. Orvis vs. whatever. And you wouldn’t be doin’ it nearly so well. As I’ve said, there’s plenty I’ve disagreed with in Tim’s posts, but I don’t see anyone around here posting funnier more thought provoking stuff. This would be one sorry ass place to hang out without him.    I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. Next time I make a wrong turn on the Long Island Distressway you can expect me to come pounding on your door. We’ll go out an’ laugh at the fish as they go by… In short, I love the sport as I love life itself.

I believe you do, and that’s why you belong in this ng. But goddamn it stop calling this a sport. It ain’t. It’s a pastime. A sport implies competition and that it ain’t (IMNSHFO) Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.

Hey Tim, DON’T LET THE BASTARDS GETCHA DOWN!   These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. And never will… I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. Is that too much to ask ? Nope. <snip At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

Screw ‘em… — Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com. "I’m the boss, so WHATEVER I say is OK."

Response:

Hang tough Tim. As the proverb says: "A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country." (Matthew 13:57) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations. Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes.  I offer patterns and help and have spent hours offline helping flyfishermen of all walks. I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. In short, I love the sport as I love life itself. Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. Is that too much to ask ? TimW BTW – I am about to embark on several photographic journies in the new binaries group… 1) Tying sequences for Western Flies 2) real pictures of scarred old warriors from real C&R areas.  I think this a very worthwhile endeavor. At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

Response:

 While I agree with everything you said re: T-Bone, I disagree strongly with your statement that fly fishing is a pastime not a sport. The Webster’s Dictionary has as one definition of sport, "an activity pursued for pleasure involving the hunting, taking or killing of wild animals, game or fish." Paul Marriner

Response:

Tim, Way back before it became the rage, I too submitted a post that exposed some true idiocy in this ng. It was about IMHO how anything would be better than a FEDERAL Government being the overseer of wildlife and natual resources. I got the same hate mail, posts and name calling that you have received, only not to the extent you have been forced to endure. After my post, I saw several late (a few weeks later) replies to my original post become a thread that carried through to the election. I think your thread on C&R is having the same effect. There are positives and negatives to all issues, but we tend to forget the positive results. I hope such actions by irresponsible idiots do NOT shut you up. I have said it before and I say it again now: I may not agree with everything you say but I will read yur posts first and will defend to the death your right to post! The idiots? Ahhh… fuck em!

Response:

 While I agree with everything you said re: T-Bone, I disagree strongly with your statement that fly fishing is a pastime not a sport. The Webster’s Dictionary has as one definition of sport, "an activity pursued for pleasure involving the hunting, taking or killing of wild animals, game or fish." Paul Marriner

OK Paul- You and Tim and Webster’s can call it any damn thing you want, I’ll call it fishing. You don’t think I could say all that stuff about Tim without a little jab somewhere;-) ?? Anyway, it’s whatever YOU wanna make it-that’s the ONLY thing that’s important. Best Regards, Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com. "I’m the boss, so WHATEVER I say is OK."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations. Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes.  I offer patterns and help and have spent hours offline helping flyfishermen of all walks. I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. In short, I love the sport as I love life itself. Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. Is that too much to ask ? TimW

Look, Tim, for what it’s worth… Sometimes your opinions make me laugh, sometimes they piss me off. The same could be said of the opinions of my wife, my mother, my brother, George Gehrke and that kid down at the 7-11 with the pierced nose. Post whatever the hell you want, but don’t stop posting. This newsgroup would be a very boring place without your insights and opinions, regardless of who likes them and who doesn’t. Oh, and you might wish to reconsider that open invitation for anyone to join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Steve

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Tim, Don’t let a bunch of wannabes get you down. Without you in the NG, this place would be empty and drool. I like the fire and brimstone that’s shoot back and forth about the various topics here. We all don’t resemble the Marlboro Man in neat tidy packages. So, who the fuck should care. Some folks (yes, old ones) just don’t like the water muddied upstream from where they’re standing. They can’t see that the water is changing and they’re even standing in it. They’re the type of people that have all the comments at the wrong time. They don’t want to listen and learn. A good example that want to share happened to me before I became of age years ago. I was the only one working a hole and had been there for several hours. I worked it from all directions and changed my strategy each time and was starting to show some action but not hooking anything. I finally hooked a stealhead (half-pounder) but he shook off right as my thumb touched the lower jaw. I went right back to my stance and now had an audience of wannabes. On my very next cast I hooked a good five pounder and somehow knew my day was over. Here I was trying to land a fish on poor tired equipment, drowning out the questions from the fishermen on the bank. What you using? How deep you? What’s your angle of drift? And so on, and made only one comment to the guys that that the fish where in close and right on the bottom. Somehow they didn’t hear a word I said or thought I didn’t know what I was talking about. When I had that fresh pink and silver up on the beach I looked behind and smiled as these two guys twice my age mucked up the hole. In short order instead listening to what I said, they proceed to go deep and spooked all chances getting a fish for the rest of the day. People only listen to what they want to hear, and then only act on a portion of that. This is a wonderful county we live in. We have the freedom to move about, disagree with the government and speak our minds without going to jail. Tim, feel free to speak what’s on your mind, as we all need a little education to grow with. Oh, by the way, the only true sports are mountain climbing, auto racing, and bull fighting, everything else are games or pastimes. Doug Knight

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: Oh, and you might wish to reconsider that open invitation for anyone to : join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting : for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up : at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on : your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Especially one over 6 feet tall. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations.   Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.

I too love a good laugh, Tim, and you and I have shared many enjoyable moments both in ng’s and private e-mail.  Nevertheless, I think your assessment of your newsgroup communications is a little too generous.  I would not have brought this up on my own, but since you have raised the issue I will say that I have felt at times that you have made use of ad hominum arguments.  Since 1993, in various ng’s, I have said that mandated C&R is a management tool which works well for some sport fisheries on wild populations.  Mixtures of mandated C&R and allowed C&K work well in other fisheries.  And very liberal C&K works well in some fisheries, too.  But there have been times when, in response, you have painted me as being a total C&R enthusiast, without exception.  And when I have offered C&R data from published, refereed studies, and observations made on specific fisheries which thrive under partial or total C&R management, your responses have not always been gracious.  For example, I recall one article into which I also "put a lot of work and thought," only to have you dismiss it by saying "nothing new here, so no response."  My feeling, quite frankly, was that you simply had nothing to offer in response to my well-documented presentation. In my opinion, newsgroups have not turned out to be particularly good public forums for reasoned discussion.  They lend themselves all too well to shouting matches.  You do add "variety and spice," but there are other good things which you could also add to r.o.f.f.  However, since you don’t want any "damned lectures"…. I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. BTW – I am about to embark on several photographic journies in the new binaries group… 2) real pictures of scarred old warriors from real C&R areas.  I think this a very worthwhile endeavor.

In fairness and objectivity, you could also post pictures of…. oh, yeah, no lectures….   Woods Hole, MA   USA

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..some valid observations snipped… Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng.

… more snipped for brevity… T-Bone, When you’re under sustained attack it can be easy to let it get you down eventually. Don’t forget that taking any stand outside of the crowd (herd) makes you a target, particularly for the lowest common denominator of which there are the greatest number. These are also the ones that seldom have anything to add other than a "me too" or to attack someone without any positive input. Thus, you have to just write off the clowns that have nothing more to say other than to let vituperative spittle dribble onto their keyboards. Many of those posts remind me of a Dilbert comic where Dilbert and Wally are having a flamewar via the net between adjacent work cubicles. Dilbert is flexing his finger muscles and says "Come on flameboy, just try me" (quote may not be exact). The point being that the net lets those that are afraid to voice an independent opinion or that consider adding a five letter word to a string of 4-letterers to be intellectual discourse to have input without fear of retaliation. You have to just let it be water off a CDC. The net is the electronic Hyde Park. Everyone has a voice (if you have a computer, the electronic soapbox, of course). Hell, even Powlesland says something interesting every 20 or 30 posts or so (statistics not verified). Those that try to shout down other voices they don’t like should not be given your full consideration. Just ignore them. It’s just white noise in the background. Jon

Response:

(lotsa stuff deleted)

I follow the posts to roff pretty carefully and Tim’s have interested me because of the informal moderator’s role he often assumes. I for one am impressed by his generosity of spirit, civility, humor, general decency and sanity. For whatever little its worth, I think there are many sane and thoughtful roff readers who feel pretty much the same way, our various C&R differences not withstanding. And I’ll bet you that a straw poll of roff readers, were that possible, would confirm that. This ain’t exactly a private club, Tim. It has more similarity to a group of people who mostly share a common interest, discussing it on a street corner. Anyone can drift in, and some real dusies do just that. You’ve got a lot of friends and well-wishers on roff, T-Bone. Don’t let noise and rudeness from silly people get to you. You’re the spice in the food around here. From Philjack’s response: At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me. Screw ‘em…

My advise exactly, Tim. Screw ‘em like a big dog. Tight lines and, respective to forks, light tines – Lon Lon Hall Applied Intelligence Group, Inc. Fly Fisher and Cooking Enthusiast "Eat the rich. The poor are tough and stringy."

Response:

Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations.

etc….. Tim, I have been lurking in this newsgroup for about two years.  I find your posts both interesting and informative.  I know it is difficult to have people flaming you, but you just need to keep doing what you think is right.  When people give me a hard time, I remember this quote: To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.         Elbert Hubbard It helps me, I hope it helps you. Keep up the good work! Trent

Response:

In my opinion, newsgroups have not turned out to be particularly good public forums for reasoned discussion.

I agree. I used to think the problem was the medium. That is, a person read a post, formed an opinion, and typed it, pressing Send before thinking, carefully, about each word, every idea, and their implications. Usenet anonymity, no accountability, little if any responsibility. More recently, I’ve begun to think the problem is not the medium, but the people who use it (perhaps our culture as a whole). Yes, it makes me shudder, for I see them in myself. What does this have to do with fly fishing??? Everything… or nothing at all. Mitch Red-Neck at Large

Response:

there have been times when, in response, you have painted me as being a total C&R enthusiast, without exception.  And when I have offered C&R data from published, refereed studies, and observations made on specific fisheries which thrive under partial or total C&R management, your responses have not always been gracious.  For example, I recall one article into which I also "put a lot of work and thought," only to have you dismiss

In the spirit of debate ?  Isn’t that the difference ? If we, in an electronic discussion, or sitting in a bar and I said: "Bob, you ignorant slut…the little wahoooocheee doesn’t need TU meddling…" and you said: "Tim, you complete boob, research by Dr. Chumnfertrout states…" Is this not different then a post which reads: "Bob Golder is a Jerk, I wish he would take his fucking opinions about TU over to alt.dickheads" I contend that I am the object of the latter and I will not deny that I participate in the former. TimW

Response:

If we, in an electronic discussion, or sitting in a bar and I said: "Bob, you ignorant slut…the little wahoooocheee doesn’t need TU meddling…" Is this not different then a post which reads: "Bob Golder is a Jerk, I wish he would take his fucking opinions about TU over to alt.dickheads"

Oh yes, I’d _much_ rather be called an ignorant slut than a jerk!   I _think_ you are saying that in the first example, you’re talking WITH me, but in the second example you’re talking AT me or even ABOUT me. Communication is possible in the first example, but more difficult and perhaps impossible in the second example. Whether in a bar or at a computer terminal, the next thing I’d ask you is how would TU get factored into our typical conversations about C&R vs. C&K?  Trout Unlimited is not a C&R-only organization.  TU is not even a fly fishing organization, but accepts spincasting and baitcasting, both with artificial lures and with bait.  That’s why the Federation of Fly Fishers was originally formed by people who objected to these TU policies.  Tim, I think that this illustrates another reason why some people get frustrated with you.  In the middle of a conversation about C&R, all of a sudden you might be knocking TU or cutting osier branches to paint the water for brookies (a lovely image, to be sure, but one which fetches linear thinkers up a bit short.  We can get a bit fussy when that happens.). So I think that some people are confused or possibly made angry by the freewheeling nature of your posts, as well as by the actual substance (if any!  :-) ) of your comments.  But no one should insult you or send hate mail to you as a result of your communications. Woods Hole, MA   USA

Response:

: Hello thoughtful readers, : I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing : offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some : fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts : here to come to western colorado and fish with me. Careful, I might take you up on it.  ;)

I’d be careful too.  Wayne might take him up on it.  I know that my travels ever do find me in Colorado again I will most certainly try and look Tim up for a couple hours or more of fishing. : I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, : or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity : in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   : Is that too much to ask ?   For some people, yes.  It has been my observation that a lynch mob mentality can start when one poster starts to flame another. It’s happened to me.  Kinda makes you open season.

Often there might be a lynch mob merely because someone has posted something so contraversial that a lot of people disagree with it and want to express their opinion.  Tim posts on a contraversial topic and I would expect a lot of responses and I think he handles them quite well without resorting to vitriol and ad hominem attacks.  I can’t say the same thing for many of the people that disagree with him.  The other day someone declared that they were creating a killfile with Tim’s name in it.  I really couldn’t understand why someone would do that merely because they disagreed with his opinions.  If Tim presented them in a flammatory manner, attacking the people that use pure C&R rather then the practice I could understand but he doesn’t. I hope that those responsible for Tim’s posting will honor his request. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations.   Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes.  I offer patterns and help and have spent hours offline helping flyfishermen of all walks.   I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. In short, I love the sport as I love life itself. Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   Is that too much to ask ?   TimW BTW – I am about to embark on several photographic journies in the new binaries group… 1) Tying sequences for Western Flies 2) real pictures of scarred old warriors from real C&R areas.  I think this a very worthwhile endeavor.   At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.   This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   Is that too much to ask ?   At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

Having visited roff for the past few months it’s taken a while to learn a bit about the personalities who post here. It’s easy particularly in the first few visits to take posts (particularly those tongue in cheek) out of context and come away thinking that there’s a fine stock of creeps on this ng. Further there have been much unneeded barbs shot at identifable people &groups: namely GG, Rex Geirach Gary Borger ,the yuppy ff crowd and anyone who buys Orvis. Perhaps it’s good fun but someone is bound to take it personal. BEWARE those who give out should be prepared to get as good as they give. For my part I’ve got no intent to be deliberately malicious. I’d also add that over my months of browsing T-bone’s proven to be one of the more entertaining and though provoking denizens of these occassionally deep and troubled waters. Ralph H.

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: Hello thoughtful readers, : I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing : offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some : fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts : here to come to western colorado and fish with me. Careful, I might take you up on it.  ;) : I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, : or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity : in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   : Is that too much to ask ?   For some people, yes.  It has been my observation that a lynch mob mentality can start when one poster starts to flame another. It’s happened to me.  Kinda makes you open season. Later, Jon Porter

Response:

Question:

As a last resort he started to dog paddle,and managed to get enough air (and a bit of water)in his lungs to keep going.He managed to make it to shore. I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ last restort: a wet exit.  I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), pull my feet out, and exit the tube.  Anyone see a problem with this assumption? Wet exits are the one and only facet of kayaking I’m proficient at, having had lots of practice while trying to learn to roll.

I for one am going to take my tube out in the lake in a controlled situation and flip it until I am comfortable with this "wet exit". I didnt even realize flipping my tube was possible- It’s pretty wide. You got my attention! Jack Jack Wheeler

Response:

Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. is there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer?

You know, it wasn’t till several hours after I read this comment that it occured to me how offensive it is.  Why is it that every time somebody hurts themself we assume it is someone else’s fault? Sue the float tube manufacturer?  Come on.  Do you really think the float tube is to blame? — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube Sheesh: you write a post like that to a group consisting of thousands of

… paragraph of inappropriate sarcasm deleted … know? Geez, I mean I might have to put off buying that new  reel I want for a whole month or so but I think I could swing it….

You insensitive bastard.  I gather no one will shed a tear when your tube flips. Bob Luneski

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. is there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer? You know, it wasn’t till several hours after I read this comment that it occured to me how offensive it is.  Why is it that every time somebody hurts themself we assume it is someone else’s fault? Sue the float tube manufacturer?  Come on.  Do you really think the float tube is to blame? — -Wayne Trzyna

Wayne has a good point, unless of course the manufacurer designed a tube that would obviously flip under normal operation. i.e. shaped like a kayak.  If an angler choses to forego a PFD and drowns because the tube completely deflated before going ashore, then too bad. (Which is a different circumstance than the subject victim) I personally limit my use of the float tube to calm still waters on small lakes with land very accessible.  I view my tube as the "only" option as a boat on a small pond or lake where a regular boat would be less intimate.  Larger waters require a normal boat or even a pram, a tube is not viewed as my "poor man’s boat".  No white water adventures here because no fish is worth my life. My condolences to the familiy of the unfortunate angler. — Howard

Response:

Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. is there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer? You know, it wasn’t till several hours after I read this comment that it occured to me how offensive it is.  Why is it that every time somebody hurts themself we assume it is someone else’s fault? Sue the float tube manufacturer?  Come on.  Do you really think the float tube is to blame?

If it was a manufacturing or design defect, then yes, there is every right to sue, provided that it was being used as intended. It might very well be a design which places the rider COG too high…the lawsuit might 1) get it fixed and 2) save more lives. Something that seems really ludicrous to me is the price of some of the tubes…like Browning…around $50…imagine that, really, something for $50 that has such serious implications, a $50 boat. Hmmmm…boggles the mind…freaking fly line costs more… TimW

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Wheee!

If you can maintain this attitude, you will survive the flip. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

: I have spent many an hour in a float tube ,and I must tell you : that I am amazed that anyone has had one flip over on them????? It _CAN_ be done!!  I have not managed to do so yet, but there have been times where I leaned way over the side of tube to reach for a snagged line. I would have the opposite side of the tube lift out of the water and start to roll. I am only about 175#, but I used to flip truck tire tubes in the pool when I was a kid by leaning on one side of them. There were times when I had to worry about this, but they are several pounds

ago. My COG is pretty safely placed, now.   I did flip once, getting into the water, because I was careless, and tried to walk forward rather than back.  Really scary for about 10 seconds.  I am really careful, now. I have to say, seems like the carrying straps add to the danger.  I don’t use them.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I have spent many an hour in a float tube ,and I must tell you : that I am amazed that anyone has had one flip over on them????? It _CAN_ be done!!  I have not managed to do so yet, but there have been times where I leaned way over the side of tube to reach for a snagged line. I would have the opposite side of the tube lift out of the water and start to roll. I am only about 175#, but I used to flip truck tire tubes in the pool when I was a kid by leaning on one side of them. The trick is to stay reasonably centered and keep your butt in the water. Even when I get a big wake from a boat, I easily stay upright and ride it out. Wheee! Jon Porter

In reflection, my previous post might be considered to be flippant and callous regarding the original incident.  I meant no disrespect, and extend my sympathies to the family and friends of the unfortunate tuber.

Response:

: I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ : last restort: a wet exit.  I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), : pull my feet out, and exit the tube.  Anyone see a problem with this : assumption? You should be able to _drop_ out of a tube. I can get into my Caddis with the seat strap buckled while wearing fins. I figure that getting out (even upside down) should not be much harder. The trick is to keep your wits about you when the thing flips! Jon Porter

Your waders will be tough to pull under water upside down.  You might give it a try (with help nearby) and let us know how it goes.  Sobering thought being upside down with your neoprenes, all snug and airtight, waving around in the breeze.  Perhaps the open-ended tubes have more to recommend them than easy entry. John Porter, I’m truely sorry for your loss and appreciate the warning. Good fishing!  J. Rice

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With regard to an earlier post of mine to the fellow who’s brother drowned a "Bob" [Last name omitted to protect the guilty] apparently skimmed same and, thinking I was being sarcastic/insensitive, submitted a post of his own with a  few of the lines from my post he misconstrued. For the opportunity to restate the point of my original post will gladly forego asking for mea culpa from Bob for wrongful skimming/snipping me to make me sound like a bastard/calling me a bastard/etc., etc. since I also know his heart was in the right place. Thus, again: Here’s hoping the fellow who lost his brother will tell us if his brother’s two boys are in financial straits and, if so, whether and where there’s a trust fund where those of us who are interested can send something. (And oh, Bob, re your calling me a bastard: No hard feelings (Though I hope you didn’t hurt my father’s feelings, whoever he is….)

Response:

On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago,  was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing. I hope the stream recovers… If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop me a note.

Response:

On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago,  was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing. I hope the stream recovers… If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop me a note.

I’m sorry to hear about your brother,I offer my condolences.My brother did the same thing,luckily he survied.I was to far from him to help and I just stood there in disbelief.I think he was trying to get out of the water to take a leek,and tripped on a rock and fell forward. Being a steep dropoff right next to shore he could not reach the bottom with his hand.  As a last resort he started to dog paddle,and managed to get enough air (and a bit of water)in his lungs to keep going.He managed to make it to shore.  I now fish with a floater vest or a floater collar,and so does my brother, we enjoy our fishing trips together and especially float tubing. It’s a very exciting sport and I hope you do not give it up. BTW he is my twin brother,and I don’t want to lose him. Just sharing my experience with everybody and maybe it hits home to some people. Tight lines,Frank

Response:

On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago,  was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing…..

Sheesh: you write a post like that to a group consisting of thousands of lunatics who by definition sit around staring at their $2000 and up computertoys and fairly regularly drop $300-$500 on flyrods, $100-$400 on reels, take fly-in trips around the world, etc., etc., and you don’t tell us if the boys’ mother and you and whatever other family is involved could use a hand with the expenses of raising the boys and whether a trust fund has been set up for them and the address….? Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. is there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer?) but if they do why don’t you let us know? Geez, I mean I might have to put off buying that new  reel I want for a whole month or so but I think I could swing it….

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: On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube : over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what : made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left : two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, : moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he : loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago,  was to take his : class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered : from cattle grazing. I hope the stream recovers… : If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop : me a note. Sorry to hear of your loss. Can the tubes be flipped while leaning backwards with one arm extended to the rear and feet out in front of you? Suggestion for discussion: When diving, I wear a large dull knife strapped to my leg. This is mostly to impress the tourons. However, after having managed to get all tangled up in a monoline fishing net once, there is now a small, double-edged, very sharp, serrated (sp?) edged knife fastened to my shoulder strap. Next time I’ll leave all that equipment down there with a few quick strokes of that knife when the release buckles are all tied up. Maybe it is just me, but after a couple of emergency situations, you go prepared. When upside down in a tube, can an escape be managed with a slash to the tube and a couple cuts on shoulder straps? I know, like you don’t have enough junk hanging on your vest already. Also, there are ankle weights for divers that don’t like diving upside down. I assume tubers have these also to help paddle around? Bill

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On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died…

Rich: My sincerest condolences to you and your family… very sorry to hear this tragic news.

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As a last resort he started to dog paddle,and managed to get enough air (and a bit of water)in his lungs to keep going.He managed to make it to shore.

I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ last restort: a wet exit.  I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), pull my feet out, and exit the tube.  Anyone see a problem with this assumption? Wet exits are the one and only facet of kayaking I’m proficient at, having had lots of practice while trying to learn to roll. — -Wayne Trzyna

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I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ last restort: a wet exit.  I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), pull my feet out, and exit the tube.  Anyone see a problem with this assumption? Wet exits are the one and only facet of kayaking I’m proficient at, having had lots of practice while trying to learn to roll.

The panic factor and 35 degree water might be a problem with this assumption.  Keeping your wits about you would be difficult.  I assume you practiced rolling your kayak under somewhat controlled conditions.  I never practiced flipping my tube. Does a PFD really help if you are flipped over.  Will it keep your head up when the tube is flipped over and your legs are pointed to the sky, or will it keep you from flipping in the first place?.  Just curious if anyone has experienced a flip while wearing a life jacket. John

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: I have spent many an hour in a float tube ,and I must tell you : that I am amazed that anyone has had one flip over on them????? It _CAN_ be done!!  I have not managed to do so yet, but there have been times where I leaned way over the side of tube to reach for a snagged line. I would have the opposite side of the tube lift out of the water and start to roll. I am only about 175#, but I used to flip truck tire tubes in the pool when I was a kid by leaning on one side of them. The trick is to stay reasonably centered and keep your butt in the water. Even when I get a big wake from a boat, I easily stay upright and ride it out. Wheee! Jon Porter

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: I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ : last restort: a wet exit.  I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), : pull my feet out, and exit the tube.  Anyone see a problem with this : assumption? You should be able to _drop_ out of a tube. I can get into my Caddis with the seat strap buckled while wearing fins. I figure that getting out (even upside down) should not be much harder. The trick is to keep your wits about you when the thing flips! Jon Porter

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I have spent many an hour in a float tube ,and I must tell you that I am amazed that anyone has had one flip over on them?????

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First for safety I would say we need to wear PFD’s of some type.  Second we should never be without a good readily available knife.  Third it isn’t a bad Idea to try to flip one with a friend present and try a water exit. Not panicing is probably the key.  Neoprene waders are very bouyant and can hinder a water exit plus they are cumbersome.

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If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop me a note.

I find that the lower I set my self in the tube the better control I have over it  This may take away some of my casting ability but I feel safer. Condolences on your loss

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On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago,  was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing…..

   First of all, let me say I’m very sorry for your loss.    This should be a heads-up for float-tubers and anyone thinking about buying one.  A friend of mine flipped his in the Green River and fortunately was able to right himself in shallow water while I watched helplessly from fifty yards away.  He is 6′2" and 250 lbs and was in a Browning tube which is way too small and carries you way too high, especially if you are his size.  He will never use that tube again.  In the same year a boy drowned in that river when his tube flipped.  Tubing in rivers is especially dangerous because the current can make it even more difficult than it already is to free yourself from a flipped tube, not to mention hazards like rocks.  If you flip, don’t try to right yourself.  Try to remain calm and just swim out.    For what it’s worth, I have a Caddis tube.  It is about the largest diameter tube I have ever seen and I sit quite low in it.  I am 6′ and 170 lbs. and I don’t think I could flip it if I tried unless I was standing in very shallow water.  I also always wear a lifevest. -alan

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On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago,  was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing. I hope the stream recovers… If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop me a note.

Tragic.  Deepest, deepest condolences. You did not mention the use of a life jacket.  Was your brother wearing one ? TW

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On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon.  

        (Snip) Sheesh: you write a post like that to a group consisting of thousands of

lunatics who by definition sit around staring at their $2000 and up computertoys and fairly regularly drop $300-$500 on flyrods, $100-$400 on reels, take fly-in trips around the world, etc., etc., and you don’t tell us if the boys’ mother and you and whatever other family is involved could use a hand with the expenses of raising the boys and whether a trust fund has been set up for them and the address….? Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. if there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer?) but if they do why don’t you let us know? Geez, I mean I might have to put off buying that new   reel I want for a whole month or so but I think I could swing it….

        Well, . very crass, but I think your heart is in the right place. I think its a super idea. If, after they recover some from the shock of their loss, the family would accept some help from others who shared your brothers passion, I for one would be very willing to help.  

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Question:

Does anyone know a mail-order outfit (name, phone num) that carries the velco-tie style of felt-sole wading shoe?

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Does anyone know a mail-order outfit (name, phone num) that carries the velco-tie style of felt-sole wading shoe?

I got a velcro-cloe pair from Hook and Hackle (in NY) a couple of years ago.  They have held up just fine.  They have an 800 #, but its at home and I’m not….  They usually advertise in the fly fishing magazines…. Nat Davis Virginia Tech.

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Path:

msuinfo!uwm.edu!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!new s.du
ke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!usenet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: dulcimer.ee.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-NUPop-Charset: English Does anyone know a mail-order outfit (name, phone num) that carries the velco-tie style of felt-sole wading shoe? I got a velcro-cloe pair from Hook and Hackle (in NY) a couple of years ago.  They have held up just fine.  They have an 800 #, but its at home and I’m not….  They usually advertise in the fly fishing magazines…. Nat Davis Virginia Tech.

The brand of velcro-ties I have is Pro-Line; they have held up for two seasons, and are great to have with cold, gloved hands. Mine are one size larger than my normal shoe size for the neoprenes. I bought mine at a store in Kalamazoo, but I have seen them in Bass Pro and other catalogs. Jim Johnson Michigan State University

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Does anyone know a mail-order outfit (name, phone num) that carries the velco-tie style of felt-sole wading shoe? I got a velcro-cloe pair from Hook and Hackle (in NY) a couple of years ago.  They have held up just fine.  They have an 800 #, but its at home and I’m not….  They usually advertise in the fly fishing magazines…. Nat Davis Virginia Tech.

Hook and Hackle’s number is 1-800-552-8342.  The shoes in question are made by Pro-Line and cost $32.25.  I bought Pro-Line’s 44mm neoprene stocking-foot waders from H&H for $65 and have been reasonably satisfied with the product. Hook and Hackle respond efficiently and have good prices. Peter Just

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Question:

There are two things I’ve heard wrt keeping bugs at bay:  1) Vitamin B6 when consumed gives one an odor distasteful to bugs  2) Bugs prefer dark colours especially blue Has anyone out there heard concrete evidence to support or refute these statements? Should I ditch my navy blue shirt and buy a white one? Should I start popping B6 supplements?

Scottish midges come out when the light intensity drops below a certain value.  Thus dark clothes will attract them more quickly than light clothes. Exact value of this intensity, and many other interesting facts are given in ‘The Highland Midge’ a little booklet, which is, I believe, a shortened version of the author’s dissertation.  It is available in touristy shops. (I have no financial or other interests in this book.)  There are a lot of different types of midges, with wildly varying lifestyles and habitats. Kees PS For those in Edinburgh: there is a midge genus/type/model called    midge duddingstonii, or something to that effect, called after    Duddingston Loch.  A lot of repellent tests were done around    Achnashellach, prime midge country.  DEET still seems to be recognised    to be the most effective. — Kees Goossens                       Keep in Touch with the Dutch: University of Edinburgh, Scotland   UUCP:  ..!mcsun!uknet!dcs!kgg Wiskunde is bouwen in de geest. — Luitzen Egbertus Jan Brouwer.

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I have heard that if you eat garlic, it will help keep bugs away,   A few years ago, some friends and I decided to test the garlic theory.   There were 4 of us, and each evening I would grind up a dozen or so cloves for the soup.  

WHAT! NO CONTROL GROUP? ——- Ed.

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|If I remember correctly, "The Complete Wilderness Paddler" cites |actual scientific research on the clothing color question. |According to this book (an excellent book by the way), dark |colors attract mosquitoes more than light/bright colors.  Orange is |the best color to wear, followed by colors like yellow, green, white. Unfortunately orange is not the best color to wear when trying to catch that spooky german brown during the evening hatch.  Also, unfortunately when a #14 mosquito might be the best pattern, orange clothing might be the only thing you could where that would allow tolarable fishing conditions. There is this place in the southern part of Sequoia National forest where the mosquitos aren’t as bad as these little biting flies that come out around dusk.  If tying on a fly during failing light isn’t hard enough having a fly intrigued by the batting of your eyelashes makes it almost impossible. I’ve resigned to wearing a head net on such occasions.  That last time I was there we had just hiked out after a few days and were talking with a couple of guys that were waiting for it to cool off a little more before hiking in.  After one of them slapped his arm about the third or fourth time and said, "son of a bitch!",  I said, "you`ll be calling them worse than that before the trips over." — | John Fereira            "Is that all you ever think about?"                |

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According to this book (an excellent book by the way), dark colors attract mosquitoes more than light/bright colors.  Orange is the best color to wear, followed by colors like yellow, green, white.

   So that explains why all those hikers dressed like a flower are grinning so much.  And I thought it was ignorance.  (I guess it was ignorance – mine).  Still, I’m too macho to look like a spring garden. I’ll just wear my long-sleeved, dark-colored clothing, light up a stinking stogy (works on hikers too!) and head off into the forest. Woody

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Wasn’t there an article in one of the mags recently about backcountry etiquette with regards to bright clothing and equipment?  I guess I’m not suprised that bugs have better taste than some people. Scott Herod

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I have heard that if you eat garlic, it will help keep bugs away, but I eat a fair amount of garlic and it doesn’t seem to help.

   A few years ago, some friends and I decided to test the garlic theory.   There were 4 of us, and each evening I would grind up a dozen or so cloves for the soup.  In addition, I ate it raw with lunch (I like garlic).  Since our canoe trip lasted 14 days, we each consumed a good deal of the stuff.   It’s a good thing we never met anybody on the way.    Well, the bugs paid no attention at all; they were as vicious as ever. By 9 pm, the only thing to do was retreat to the tent and listen to the monsters buzz around.    Maybe you’re supposed to rub it on the skin … —        Computing and Communications Services                Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada K1S 5B6

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I have heard that if you eat garlic, it will help keep bugs away, but I eat a fair amount of garlic and it doesn’t seem to help.   Well, the bugs paid no attention at all; they were as vicious as ever. By 9 pm, the only thing to do was retreat to the tent and listen to the monsters buzz around.   Maybe you’re supposed to rub it on the skin …

This is the conclusion you were supposed to draw. The rumor was started by a gourmet bug club. — The fickleness of the women I love is only equalled by the infernal constancy of the women who love me.–George Bernard Shaw

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There are two things I’ve heard wrt keeping bugs at bay:  1) Vitamin B6 when consumed gives one an odor distasteful to bugs  2) Bugs prefer dark colours especially blue Has anyone out there heard concrete evidence to support or refute these statements? Should I ditch my navy blue shirt and buy a white one? Should I start popping B6 supplements?

If I remember correctly, "The Complete Wilderness Paddler" cites actual scientific research on the clothing color question. According to this book (an excellent book by the way), dark colors attract mosquitoes more than light/bright colors.  Orange is the best color to wear, followed by colors like yellow, green, white. Ed

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There are two things I’ve heard wrt keeping bugs at bay:   1) Vitamin B6 when consumed gives one an odor distasteful to bugs   2) Bugs prefer dark colours especially blue Has anyone out there heard concrete evidence to support or refute these statements? Should I ditch my navy blue shirt and buy a white one? Should I start popping B6 supplements?

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There are two things I’ve heard wrt keeping bugs at bay:  1) Vitamin B6 when consumed gives one an odor distasteful to bugs  2) Bugs prefer dark colours especially blue

My experience growing up in a rice-growing region indicates that mosquitoes definitely prefer dark colors.  I don’t know if blue is particularly more attractive to them than other colors.  Loose fitting light outer garments seem best.  Wear a light-colored hat. I have heard that if you eat garlic, it will help keep bugs away, but I eat a fair amount of garlic and it doesn’t seem to help. — *  Jean Ezell                 *  University of Illinois   * *                             *  Coordinated Science Lab  * *  (217) 244-5536             *  Urbana, IL  61801        *

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