Question:

<SNIP Errr . . .  this is why I posed it as a question, not a statement. Someone once said, I believe on this newsgroup, that punctuation was something to which particular attention should be paid. Therefore, by using a question mark, I was not giving a glimpse into the future, but was asking for one. Tim It’s STILL just a NG – sheeeesh PS: You can call me Tim.

Yes, well Tim, an excellent point, in retrospect. Although you intimated that you detected something. I do wish you would make up your mind, are you a detective? A detector? a fortune teller? or maybe even a cape seller?   I would like "Horn", if its still available, although perhaps "of Good Hope" might be more appropriate. If I could give glimpses into the future, I would know the names of the horses already, and this whole conversation would be as superfluous as a cape. The importance or otherwise of any particular thing, is in the eye of the beholder.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIP Errr . . .  this is why I posed it as a question, not a statement. Someone once said, I believe on this newsgroup, that punctuation was something to which particular attention should be paid. Therefore, by using a question mark, I was not giving a glimpse into the future, but was asking for one. Tim It’s STILL just a NG – sheeeesh PS: You can call me Tim. Yes, well Tim, an excellent point, in retrospect. Although you intimated that you detected something.

I also remember someone, I believe on this NG, saying that people shouldn’t infer intent. I do wish you would make up your mind, are you a detective? A detector? a fortune teller? or maybe even a cape seller? I would like "Horn", if its still available, although perhaps "of Good Hope" might be more appropriate.

Since this is a fishing NG, "Cod" is the going commodity. C’mon, MC, stay on topic.  ;-) Tim

Response:

<SNIP Since this is a fishing NG, "Cod" is the going commodity. C’mon, MC, stay on topic.  ;-) Tim

Just be grateful I don

Question:

Does anyone know of any flyfishing spots in Spain around Granada? Thanks. Al

Response:

Does anyone know of any flyfishing spots in Spain around Granada? Thanks. Al

Try the Rio Frio, west of Granada near Loja. JR

Response:

Al: Drop Tino an email and see ifhe can help you. He’s somewhere up in the mountains in Spain.

Response:

Havve a look at http://www.cybertrout.com./spain.htm http://usuarios.futurnet.es/m/marlin/index.htm http://www.caldea.com/fish/andfishi.html

Does anyone know of any flyfishing spots in Spain around Granada? Thanks.

Al

Response:

Question:

That says it all George, that says it all…… well done. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – _____  In the world of fly fishing, which R.O.F.F. really is basically about, the subjects involved in this world that really belongs to trout, waver like some kind of stellar magnetic field.  First you feel it and then you don’t.  Some plunge into black holes or abyss’s never seeming to be able to return to the art form again. Not that long ago, back in January the journey began.  With nothing but the promises offered by roff and the dares, I stood up to be counted . . . and I performed the dance of a monkey on strings.  I listened, I pouted, I reprimanded, I took and applied all sorts of advice that to this day are in the signature of each BastardBamboo.   I had stated that Bamboo Fly Rods were much too expensive for the common layman to afford.  I said that there were more people without a bamboo fly rod then those who had them and that, in my opinion ~ this was wrong.  I said, I could make a bamboo fly rod for only $150 (not including tax we overlooked at the time) that the majority COULD afford.  $300 plus excise was the goal.  That goal is alive and active. The promise has been kept. There are still the expensive fly rods ranging from well over this low, lowest commercial price to a range that touches $7,000.  Charges of between $1,000 to $3,000 is still unmoved.  This is good and these fly rods are certainly worth it to those that can afford them. No matter what, there are those who are watching the Bastard project in abstract interest.  When they ‘think’ there is money involved, they will enter this challenge thinking they can do it better then I.  The result, I promise, because of my willingness to try will be a drastic down spiral in Bamboo Retail Prices. Now, we all realize there are many that would love to see me fail.  So? I’ve failed before.  I have lots of experience in that arena.  Win or lose, this is going to end up being a win/win result for all of fly fishing in the entire world.  Wait and see.  The day may very well arrive when some of you will be fishing a "Sapphire Fly Rod,"  or a "Sweet Thing Fly Rod" or a "Presidential Fly Rod," but you will all be wrong.  No matter what, every one of them will really be "A Bastard Fly Rod."  I was there first.  I will always be there. Mr. G.

Response:

[dribble snipped]

A short note on the fine art of sarcasm: dribble:   To move a basketball down the floor by bouncing it repeatedly on that floor while walking or running.  May also be done while standing in one spot. dribble:  To allow saliva to escape from one’s pie hole while dribbling a basketball….or not. The nonsense which you accuse George of disseminating and which is also exemplified by endless repetition of SPAM SPAM SPAM…….is DRIVEL!!

Response:

_____  In the world of fly fishing, which R.O.F.F. really is basically about, the subjects involved in this world that really belongs to trout, waver like some kind of stellar magnetic field.  First you feel it and then you don’t.  Some plunge into black holes or abyss’s never seeming to be able to return to the art form again. Not that long ago, back in January the journey began.  With nothing but the promises offered by roff and the dares, I stood up to be counted . . . and I performed the dance of a monkey on strings.  I listened, I pouted, I reprimanded, I took and applied all sorts of advice that to this day are in the signature of each BastardBamboo.   I had stated that Bamboo Fly Rods were much too expensive for the common layman to afford.  I said that there were more people without a bamboo fly rod then those who had them and that, in my opinion ~ this was wrong.  I said, I could make a bamboo fly rod for only $150 (not including tax we overlooked at the time) that the majority COULD afford.  $300 plus excise was the goal.  That goal is alive and active. The promise has been kept. There are still the expensive fly rods ranging from well over this low, lowest commercial price to a range that touches $7,000.  Charges of between $1,000 to $3,000 is still unmoved.  This is good and these fly rods are certainly worth it to those that can afford them. No matter what, there are those who are watching the Bastard project in abstract interest.  When they ‘think’ there is money involved, they will enter this challenge thinking they can do it better then I.  The result, I promise, because of my willingness to try will be a drastic down spiral in Bamboo Retail Prices. Now, we all realize there are many that would love to see me fail.  So? I’ve failed before.  I have lots of experience in that arena.  Win or lose, this is going to end up being a win/win result for all of fly fishing in the entire world.  Wait and see.  The day may very well arrive when some of you will be fishing a "Sapphire Fly Rod,"  or a "Sweet Thing Fly Rod" or a "Presidential Fly Rod," but you will all be wrong.  No matter what, every one of them will really be "A Bastard Fly Rod."  I was there first.  I will always be there. Mr. G.

Response:

[dribble snipped] Mr. G.

SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM AND MORE SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM

Response:

Jeff has the right idea.

[The rantings of a pompous old windbag snipped] Mr. G.

SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM AND MORE SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM

Response:

BTW, I used nothing but Albolene at the Fall Ball.   In the words of George G, "It works!" Louie

Just out of curiousity, how well did it work? Better? Didn’t notice any difference?  Can you say without any bias that it works on par or better than what I use already? There are several products out there that work, some better than others.  I am always open to one of the "better than others."  Until I find a better, I will continue using what I am currently using. Warren Remember, men will come and men will go, but the streams and mountains go on forever. -Bob Carmichael

Response:

Warren F: <<BTW, I used nothing but Albolene at the Fall Ball.   In the words of George G, "It works!" Louie

Just out of curiousity, how well did it work? Better? Didn’t notice any difference?  Can you say without any bias that it works on par or better than what I use already? I am not a great proponent of floatants.  I like drying crystals and was just recently introduced to amadou, but on occasion I do use a floatant.  I have had a jar of Albolene for a couple of years and have used it off and on.  It works as well as *anything* I have tried.  Use very little of it (sound familiar?) and it does the job well. Louie

Response:

There are several products out there that work, some better than others.  I am always open to one of the "better than others."  Until I find a better, I will continue using what I am currently using.

Warren; Over the last fifteen years I have fished with many people.  When I lived in central Wisconsin some years ago there were 15 or 20 I fished with on a more or less regular basis.  Among us we tried every brand of floatant that any of us ever heard of and a great many home made concoctions as well.  Eventually everyone I knew used Albolene exclusively.  There were and are a number of others that seems to work about as well but none were found to be better and nothing except a few of the bathroom chemistry projects could touch Albolene for price. One other factor to consider:  Albolene is marketed as a skin cream, makeup remover, etc.  In our litigious society I suspect the manufacturers have taken some care to formulate a product that’s relatively safe to handle.  No telling what’s in some of the commercial floatants out there. Keep your bug on the meniscus!

Response:

Question:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi again Actually I have a very nice picture of a longhaired blond girl fishing for salmon in nothing but boots, but I will have to get some permissions first. I will see what I can do.

        you sure as hell have *my* permission, torben, ol’ chum!                 wayno the lustful – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       Torben Meldgaard have to check with the better half, eh? also….although this is a text ng, you have my ok to post the jpg here Happy Holidays, –Wataugan Walt

Response:

Hi again        Torben

  vcard.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi again Actually I have a very nice picture of a longhaired blond girl fishing for salmon in nothing but boots, but I will have to get some permissions first. I will see what I can do.       Torben Meldgaard

have to check with the better half, eh? also….although this is a text ng, you have my ok to post the jpg here Happy Holidays, –Wataugan Walt

Response:

Hi again Actually I have a very nice picture of a longhaired blond girl fishing for salmon in nothing but boots, but I will have to get some permissions first. I will see what I can do.        Torben Meldgaard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Torben, A very nice site. To generate interest and flow with the popular perception of Scandinavia, try posting pictures of tall, beautiful, blonde Scandinavian women rushing from the sauna to plunge in the cold trout and salmon infested waters. Even consider posing one of these young ladies with fly vest and rod while exploring the depths of the river with her streamer. Wayne Hart To Fish is Human….To Release Divine

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< 1K Download

Response:

Torben, A very nice site. To generate interest and flow with the popular perception of Scandinavia, try posting pictures of tall, beautiful, blonde Scandinavian women rushing from the sauna to plunge in the cold trout and salmon infested waters. Even consider posing one of these young ladies with fly vest and rod while exploring the depths of the river with her streamer. Wayne Hart

I must say Wayne you are perfectly right. A couple of really good tall beautiful naked Scandnavian blondes always compensates me for catching nothing on Scandinavian rivers.  My wife is of the opinion that the Salmon are in fact secondary, ridiculous idea of course. But I bet you know just exactly what I mean ! Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

Hi there I just want to tell you the address of my new home page about fly fishing in Scandinavia. Please take a look at it and give me some constructive criticism, I promise You I won’t cry.   Here goes:               http://www.imf.au.dk/~tmm/flyfish.html     Yours truly    Torben Meldgaard

  vcard.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

Torben, A very nice site. To generate interest and flow with the popular perception of Scandinavia, try posting pictures of tall, beautiful, blonde Scandinavian women rushing from the sauna to plunge in the cold trout and salmon infested waters. Even consider posing one of these young ladies with fly vest and rod while exploring the depths of the river with her streamer. Wayne Hart To Fish is Human….To Release Divine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there I just want to tell you the address of my new home page about fly fishing in Scandinavia. Please take a look at it and give me some constructive criticism, I promise You I won’t cry.   Here goes:               http://www.imf.au.dk/~tmm/flyfish.html     Yours truly    Torben Meldgaard Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Torben Meldgaard Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin:          vcard fn:             Torben Meldgaard n:              Meldgaard;Torben org:            Institute of Biology, Aarhus, Denmark title:          Stud.Scient x-mozilla-cpt:  ;14432 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version:        2.1 end:            vcard

Response:

Question:

Bob,      Thanks.  I use the old pliers technique with no trouble.  Was just wondering if I could find lures (rather than flies) that came ready-barblessed.  But thanks for the reply!!                                             Hal

Response:

Anyone know if barbless hooks are available in US?  (Chinese and Japanese fishing is done with them.)                                Hal Kahn

Response:

Anyone know if barbless hooks are available in US?  (Chinese and Japanese fishing is done with them.)                                Hal Kahn

Hal: I believe you will find that barbless hooks are READILY available if you are tying flies or building tackle.   Also, this may be a very silly case of pointing out the obvious, but you can also make any hook barbless by simply smashing down the barb with a pair of pliers.  If you do, be careful to smash the barb only and don’t dull the point of the hook, but it’s real easy. Good luck, Bob

Response:

Anyone know if barbless hooks are available in US?  (Chinese and Japanese fishing is done with them.)

                                Hal Kahn Orvis sells them.  Any good flyfishing shop should carry them. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

Question:

   I only suggest Mike lawson’s if you have 1000 dollars to spend…. they are rude and won’t give you the time of day.  Try Jimmy’s All seasons angler in Idaho Falls…you will get just as good information…better in my opinion and no attitude.

Hi Peter I also suggest the boys at the Hyde Drift Boat Shop in Idaho Falls 208-529-4343. They are also great and very helpful. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

Need up to date info on the Henry’s Fork.  Will be there Aug. 15, 16 & 17.  Can anyone help?

Response:

I was just out in July. I suggest you go see Mike Lawson’s fly shop and ask for HELP!  You will NEED IT !! rm

Response:

        I only suggest Mike lawson’s if you have 1000 dollars to spend…. they are rude and won’t give you the time of day.  Try Jimmy’s All seasons angler in Idaho Falls…you will get just as good information…better in my opinion and no attitude.

Response:

I am planning on fishing the Island Park area next week and wondered if anyone has any recent reports as the fishing and water conditions.  At this point I have plans to fish the Henry’s Fork and Warm River.  Anyone have any info please let me know Thanks in advance Robert Warren –

Response:

I am planning on fishing the Island Park area next week and wondered if anyone has any recent reports as the fishing and water conditions.  At this point I have plans to fish the Henry’s Fork and Warm River.  Anyone have any info please let me know

I have been maintaining a WWW Page that tracks both the flows and fishing reports for the area you are going to be in.  Point your browser to: http://www.nicoh.com/flyfish/reports Matt — NICOH Net Internet Access Provider for Eastern Idaho

Response:

Question:

I operate a Cortland Pro Shop and Stock over 300 DIFFERENT Cortland Fly Lines. I also build custom rods and have lots of other neat stuff.  If I can help out anyone with anything let me know. George E. Hoskin/Hoskin Enterprises RFD 1, Box 841 West Bath, Maine 04530 1-207-443-6064 1-800-244-7744

Response:

Question:

hmmmmm an angleworm… does that work better that a dry fly !!!!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      In his book "How to Fish the Pacific Coast" author Ray Cannon made the following observation:      "The aristocrat of ocean fisherman is the surf angler.  His pride, prestige, and dignity would be shattered if he were caught fishing on a pier, a boat, or off the rocks.  He would no more fish such places than a dry-fly man would use angleworm.      "The surf man’s field is the soft, clean beach, where the foaming white breakers beat to the rhythm of the sea’s pulse and recharge the waters with effervescing oxygen.  There is no other type of fishing that seems to have such a magnetic drag on its followers.  Such is the lure of the laundered sands."     "…the surf man enjoys dealing with nature single handed.  He dislikes being surrounded with manmade contrivances and helpers to give him bait and gaff his fish.  His ideas are exactly opposite to those of the swordfish angler, who fishes from a swivel chair and has almost everything done for him, even to having the boat chase his hooked gamefish.  The surf angler likes being a lone sea wolf."      I am inclined to agree.      Good fishing,

I would be inclined to agree too, except that I like to catch fish :^) Surf fishing is the most aesthetic way to catch surf species, but the pier has it beat all to hell for results.  Plus, I always get leery of the us vs them attitude implicit in the excerpt abobe; as though one kind of fishing is better than another, or one kind of fisherman is better than another.    The line beginning with "There is no other type of fishing that seems to have such a magnetic drag on it’s followers." discounts too easily the fly fisherman on his stream chasing the mighty salmon or trout,  or the river smallmouth wader casting his jigs and plugs for that one bronzeback of a lifetime, or any of the other scenarios that we pick up over a lifetime of fishing.   I have glided across a remote canadian lake at sunset, trolling for lake trout against a background of tall pines and the calls of loons.   Is that any ‘better’ than battling your first big pike, or straining against a slammer blue in the Carolina surf, or seeing an irridescent dolphin (mahi-mahi) leap out of an azure ocean as it tries to shake your hook?     Don’t get too hung up on that beach,  you can miss a lot of great fishing, and miss meeting some good people too. I can agree with the premise though, it is exhilirating to be standing on a beach on a crisp fall morning, with a rising tide, and casting plugs or bucktails for speckled trout in the trough.  Or wading the trough in the summer, casting a strip of squid for a fat summer flounder.  Or casting spoons, bucktails, or even bare hooks with a strip of cloth for rampaging bluefish as they churn the water to a bloody froth.   The only problem is the dry periods between bites, the inability to get to the fish that are beyond the next bar, and having to haul all your stuff onto the beach. Terry —    DoD# 541                           |  no matter how good it looks."                                         |         ‘Poison’ Ivy Rorschach  

Response:

     In his book "How to Fish the Pacific Coast" author Ray Cannon made the following observation:      "The aristocrat of ocean fisherman is the surf angler.  His pride, prestige, and dignity would be shattered if he were caught fishing on a pier, a boat, or off the rocks.  He would no more fish such places than a dry-fly man would use angleworm.      "The surf man’s field is the soft, clean beach, where the foaming white breakers beat to the rhythm of the sea’s pulse and recharge the waters with effervescing oxygen.  There is no other type of fishing that seems to have such a magnetic drag on its followers.  Such is the lure of the laundered sands."     "…the surf man enjoys dealing with nature single handed.  He dislikes being surrounded with manmade contrivances and helpers to give him bait and gaff his fish.  His ideas are exactly opposite to those of the swordfish angler, who fishes from a swivel chair and has almost everything done for him, even to having the boat chase his hooked gamefish.  The surf angler likes being a lone sea wolf."      I am inclined to agree.      Good fishing,      Mark Rosen

Response:

Question:

Among your goals you forgot.. "protect your feet from hazards of the river and trail".   No sandal can do this without neoprene socks, and neoprene boots are less nuisance than neoprene socks plus something else. Since my Patagonia reef walkers (sock top, felt sole, rubber caps for toe and heel) died, I’ve been using neoprene boots all summer.  When my feet get warm I put them in the water.  When it’s very cold I use neoprene socks under neoprene boots … Mary Shaw

Response:

I’m looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear? A couple of people have suggested rock climbing shoes.  Has anyone (anyone who doesn’t work at SGI, that is tried this?  How much do these cost?  How well do they grip both wet and dry rocks?  Are they comfortable enough to wear on long trips (both long days and overnighters)?

As someone who climbs and kayaks, I would highly discourage the use of rock shoes for kayaking.  Rock shoes have almost no traction on wet rocks.  They are tight and uncomfortable, and they would probably disintegrate under the wet conditions encountered on the river. After experimenting with a number of solutions (Aqua Socks, Wetsuit booties, TEVA sandals with neoprene socks) I have settled on the following solution: neoprene booties with felt soles (ala fly fishing waders).  They give good traction on wet rocks, OK traction on dry rocks, and are comfortable to wear all day in a kayak.  They are available from a number of suppliers – I got mine from Nortwest River Supplies without the felt soles, then glued on the felt soles after I found the ribbed rubber soles to not offer enough traction on wet and mossy rocks. Your mileage may vary. Kurt Bittner       ]"It is not Nature-as-Chaos which threatens us, but the

Response:

There was a rather stupid article about this recently in Outdoor magazine. They seemed to favor manufacturers who advertised in the magazine, rather than those with good products.  For example, they liked Timberland sandals, despite leather that wouldn’t survive constant wetting, and flimsy velcro that would come loose even in a class II swim. Whitewater footwear must meet a variety of often contradictory goals:  o Sometimes it must be warm, sometimes it must be cool and dry fast.    Neoprene booties meet the first goal, but are terrible in hot weather,    especially for side hikes.  Soggy sneakers feel awful by end of day.    Only Teva-style sandals with optional neoprene socks meet both goals.  o Easy to put on and take off, but must be secure during a big "swim".    Neoprene booties with side zippers are the best compromise, but the    zipper can fail and cold water penetrates there.  If you can tuck in    the rear velcro, toe-loop Tevas are more secure in a swim than Teva    Universals, which have three velcro sections to come loose.  o Good traction on wet rocks, good traction for climbing on side hikes.    Felt soles are best on wet rocks, whereas tread patterns are best on    side hikes.  A good compromise would be flat stealth rubber.  Sneakers    or light hiking boots with wetsocks are a good choice.  Oddly enough,    Tevas have better all-around traction after the tread wears down.  o Stiffness and lateral support for hiking, flexibility for kayaking.    Neoprene booties are terrible on long hikes, but great for footpegs.    Toe-loop Tevas provide more lateral support than sandals that surround    the foot, but 2-toe wetsocks are neither warm nor comfortable, plus    toe loops are not adjustable. The Teva 5.10 Approach seems to be the best product available, but costs around $80.  Available either toe-loop or around-the-foot. It has buckles instead of velcro, and stealth rubber soles, unfortunately with pattern. Stealth rubber wears out fast.  Cheapskates can always have regular Tevas resoled, and use safety pins on the velcro. Some guides like Alp sandals, but I hate them.  They’re very difficult to put on, and every time I take a swim, the front strap comes off.  The soles are very slippery on sand-covered dry rock.  They’re much better now that the tread has worn off but the nylon straps are badly frayed after only two seasons. Sierra Hi-Trax sandals are worth looking at.  They have buckles instead of velcro, appear to wear longer than any alternative, and cost much less. I haven’t tried them yet.  The soles are patterned rubber.  Several designs are available, including toe-loop and diagonal strap models.

Response:

Best thing I’ve found is neoprene boots with felt soles. The felt is the same stuff fishermen use on the soles of their waders to provide good footing on slippery rocks. For summer, I used to wear the Patagonia one-toed things with felt sole and a sock-like top that came up about as high as an athletic sock.  Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find them since Tevas and the water slippers came out.  Now I wear the neoprene/felt boots all year. Mary Shaw

Response:

Prijon makes a kayaking shoe which I hear is awfully expensive ($150?). They’re red/yellow and look really funny, and I was way jealous of my companions who had them on our last portage fest. cheers, scott smay

Response:

 (Jon Beck) writes:  (David Elliott) writes:

  I’m looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear?    Nothing I’ve ever used comes close to Tevas. I use the original model  with the thong between 1st and 2nd toes, as they’re much more secure  on the foot. I’ve used Tevas for years but just got a pair of Alps at REI.  They stay on better and seem just as sticky.  The price was about the same. bob maccione..

Response:

I’m looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear? Nothing I’ve ever used comes close to Tevas. I use the original model with the thong between 1st and 2nd toes, as they’re much more secure on the foot. In the summer, I wear them alone. In cold weather, I wear one-toed neoprene socks from Northwest River Supply under them. In *cold* weather, I wear them over my sewn-in drysuit feet. Jon Beck, SoRReL Project GRA

        I prefer ALPS sandals, since they have adjustable plastic buckles rather than Velcro.  The Velcro on my Tevas would give up when they got covered in sand or mud (fills up the loops).  Also, the Velcro will pull loose when you rub the foot against something, or have to swim/wade strong currents.  Your mileage may vary. — Brad Whitehurst    |   Aerospace Research Lab

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What about Tevas (or clones)?  Actual Tevas have soles made by 5.10, my clones (Boulder Sandal Company) are still pretty good.

I’ve tried my Tevas in the boat, but I’m not happy with them for two reasons: 1. The soles don’t flex very much (compared to the wetsuit booties I usually use) making it difficult to maneuver my feet around.  It’s not easy to get them off the footbraces and into the "rest" position I use for drifting. But that’s not much of a big deal compared to… 2. I’m concerned that the straps on the Tevas might catch on the footbraces at just the wrong time.  If I had bulkhead-style footbraces, this wouldn’t be an issue; but with the Yakima pegs it could be a problem. —Rsk

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I prefer the neoprene boots.  I understand that the instructors at NOC like the Alps for much of what they do, except for kayaking.  They apparently are concerned with snagging the straps on footbraces, tree limbs, etc.

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David Elliott: I’m looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear? My current favorite is the Deep See zippered boot ..

This is what I use.  They work great.  I have the Coral Kings. If its real slippery rock, go barefoot. A couple of people have suggested rock climbing shoes.

Don’t work when they are wet, and are expensive ~100 clams. Ilana Stern: …and not enough of a sole [rock climbing shoes] to push against footpegs.

This doesn’t wash, I kayak barefoot all the time. What about Tevas (or clones)?

Soles don’t bend very well to fit into kayaks.  I find them uncomfortable in kayaks, but wear them all the time otehrwise. –Chris

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I’m looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear? A couple of people have suggested rock climbing shoes.  Has anyone (anyone who doesn’t work at SGI, that is tried this?  How much do these cost?  How well do they grip both wet and dry rocks?  Are they comfortable enough to wear on long trips (both long days and overnighters)?

Ack!  Expensive, uncomfortable, and not enough of a sole to push against footpegs.  I suppose Five-Tennies would be a possibility — they’re snug sneakers made by the climbing shoe company 5.10, and they have a sole made of climbing-shoe rubber.  Dry rocks they grip fine, wet rocks…a bit better than sneakers, but not great.  They are about $58-$70 depending on sales.  By way of contrast, climbing shoes, which strike me as being the ultimate in inappropriate footwear for rafting or kayaking, are rarely less than $100.   Any other suggestions?  It might be useful to put together a chart based on weather and river conditions, so include that type of information.

What about Tevas (or clones)?  Actual Tevas have soles made by 5.10, my clones (Boulder Sandal Company) are still pretty good. I wear them over Ragg socks when it’s cold (I have the kind that don’t stick something between toes).   — /        Ilana Stern DoD#009 | Whoever first said, "Things are seldom as they

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I’m looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear? My current favorite is the Deep See zippered boot (similar to the Ocean Edge, but better for us folks with wide feet), which is great until you need to scout in slippery gorges.  I even have a larger pair of these that I can use in the colder season when I need to wear extra socks. I’ve also tried standard athletic shoes with various types of socks (from polyester to neoprene), and these are no better for me on rocks or in the river, and aren’t as warm to me. A couple of people have suggested rock climbing shoes.  Has anyone (anyone who doesn’t work at SGI, that is tried this?  How much do these cost?  How well do they grip both wet and dry rocks?  Are they comfortable enough to wear on long trips (both long days and overnighters)? Any other suggestions?  It might be useful to put together a chart based on weather and river conditions, so include that type of information.

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There may be less people doing overnight backpack trips, but I bet there are more people in the backcountry overall and doing a much more diverse set of activities. Which is very good news for us that do like to backpack: less people in the backcountry.  There might be more people in the woods but they all leave at dark.  I was talking to a fellow the other day who said he did quite

Oops! Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply we’re not in the backcountry after dark.  Many times I’m bivouaced on a ledge while climbing or camping in sagebrush near a remote desrt cave in Wyoming. So what I meant to imply is that besides the diversity of day trips many of us pack gear into remote places during mountaineering, caving, and whitewater trips that backpackers normally don’t visit. I’ve never seen backpackers on the East Ridge of the Grand Teton, or in the desert near Bighorn caverns, or along some of the remote stretches of whitewater in central Idaho, so there ARE more people in the backcountry overnight far from trailheads and vehicles, but in different places than backpackers normally go. I think what I’m getting at is, we are using backpacking as a mode of trasportation for some other goal, and not an end in itself. I’m not a "backpacker", yet backpacking is a critical part of getting to a lot of remote activities where I do spend the night. I’ve probably spent 300 night camped in backcountry far from roads in the past 6 or 7 years and only 3 of those night were on what I would call a backpacking trip. Steve —

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Eugene Miya: What worries me more are the borderline Wilcox’s out there reading the net (you can quote me on that).  I know a few in everyday life, and I lost one a couple of years back.  That is evolution in action. –eugene Steve Reiser:   Hi Eugene, I read your posting on "In the Hall of the Mountain King" and "White Winds", both of which I’ve read and have copies of.  Snyder indicated a lot of bad judgement by Wilcox.  Wilcox tries to be objective in his book, but one can’t help but notice his omissions. He seemed to cover up his errors not by arguing with Snyder’s account, but by ignoring them altogether. His book seemed somewhat defensive, especially at the end when he talks about all the grief he went through in the press afterword. I think Snyder probably gave an honest account, which arouses some wrath toward Wilcox, in most readers.  I didn’t like the way Wilcox covered his errors, but I was convinced that he suffered enough condemnation afterword to make me feel a bit sorry for him. I think his response was a bit overly defensive to the media, the Park Service, and the relatives of those who died. I would imagine that Wilcox’s attempt to gloss over his errors may have been part of the inspiration for Snyder to write his book in the first place. Hence, if Wilcox would have been more honest in the first place, it’s possible that neither book would have ever been written. It’s hard to read both books and not come up with mixed feelings toward Wilcox.  It’s tempting to feel some anger toward him for lack of good judgement, especially on their summit day for the second group, and at the same time feeling some sympathy for the weight of blame layed on him, since he was the expedition leader. (Snyder was better qualified to be the leader of the group.) Steve Reiser P.S – Seven friends of mine left yesterday for the Denali. I wish them well. (They’re more experienced than most in the books discussed above). If this appears twice, I first posted without a subject. —

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I think what I’m getting at is, we are using backpacking as a mode of trasportation for some other goal, and not an end in itself. I’m not a "backpacker", yet backpacking is a critical part of getting to a lot of remote activities where I do spend the night. I’ve probably spent 300 night camped in backcountry far from roads in the past 6 or 7 years and only 3 of those night were on what I would call a backpacking trip.

Maybe we have a problem with semantics here.  I think if you hike off into the woods with a backpack, you’re backpacking, no matter what the end result is.  I pack in to climb mountains, do caves, search for minerals, etc. and consider that backpacking.  Cripes, those packs are heavy – I’m not doing it for fun. Well, maybe I am.  Either way, I’m still pleased that there are less people out there when sunset finishes and the stars come out.

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There may be less people doing overnight backpack trips, but I bet there are more people in the backcountry overall and doing a much more diverse set of activities.

Which is very good news for us that do like to backpack: less people in the backcountry.  There might be more people in the woods but they all leave at dark.  I was talking to a fellow the other day who said he did quite a bit of backpacking in the early 70’s.  He said that he would hike 10 miles into the backcountry and see several groups of people back there too and think nothing of it.  Other than my group of friends, I don’t know anyone at all that backpacks and I almost never see anyone else in the backcountry (outside of hunters, that is).  One would think that there would at least be trail bikers back there but they seem to be more into ‘day-biking’.  I’m not complaining, of course, I’m happy.

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I thought some might find this article interesting – DH [some deleted] ON THE DECLINE   Overnight and longer backpacking trips are a sport on the decline, said Christy Metz, public information specialist for Rocky Mountain National Park. In their place, the number of day hikers and campground campers are growing. Backpacking began increasing in the early ’70s, peaked in the late ’70s, and has been falling ever since.  In 1977, Rocky Mountain National Park issued 62,708 back-country permits; in 1989, 32,792.

However, if you look at statistics for many other backcountry activities, you’ll find a drastic increase. Mountaineering, technical rock climbing, kayaking, mountain biking, spelunking, and many other backcountry sports are experiencing nearly exponential growth.  I see more people specializing in specific sports in the backcountry and less who are out strictly backpacking. DIVERSIFY   Some salespeople at moutaineering shops, however, are a bit hesitant to see their lines diversify too much.  Many tempered their enthusiasm for expansion with a note of service to the true back country lover.

This hesitation to diversify has cost many local stores business in specialized gear, more of which is sold through mail order companies.  I probably buy 50% of my outdoor gear through mail order due to this hesitance in local store.  I’m into all of the sports I listed above and the diversity of gear required is far more than most outdoor shops are willing to carry. My point here in comparison to the original article is to note that even though outdoor gear is fashionable on the streets, day hikes, and campgrounds, and with backpacking on the decline, there is still an exploding market for specialized backcoutry sports. There may be less people doing overnight backpack trips, but I bet there are more people in the backcountry overall and doing a much more diverse set of activities. Steve —

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I thought some might find this article interesting – DH Backpacking Outlets Expand Bottom Line    by Susan Simmons Eustes Boulder Business Report – May 1990    Despite a dramatic drop in number of campers and tourists trekking into the back country, area mountaineering stores say their sales are growing every year.    The day when the Vasque hiking boots were the "casual" loafer for many Boulderites has long disappeared.  Today, lighter and brighter are in demand and traditional mountaineering stores are expanding product lines to include gear for every sport from kayaking to mountain biking.    Like it or not, the mountaineering "look" continues to be fashionable in Boulder.  "You always want the ‘in’ look, whether you are hiking the mall or hiking Flagstaff," said John Whitbeck, manager at the north face in Boulder. "People want to wear clothing that identifies them as outdoorsy." ON THE DECLINE    Overnight and longer backpacking trips are a sport on the decline, said Christy Metz, public information specialist for Rocky Mountain National Park. In their place, the number of day hikers and campground campers are growing. Backpacking began increasing in the early ’70s, peaked in the late ’70s, and has been falling ever since.  In 1977, Rocky Mountain National Park issued 62,708 back-country permits; in 1989, 32,792.    … In 1985, the first year permits were issued for Indian Peaks [Wilderness Area], 2,134 were requested.  In 1989, 1,550 permits were requested.    So what does this mean for the people who sell camp stoves, sleeping bags, and hiking shoes?    It means even more business, said Whitbeck.    "In our 15 retail stores, without exception, business has been up a mile." The selling point for The North Face, and other mountain stores, is the dramatic shift in outdoor gear lines from the products carried 15 years ago. The traditional business of boots, packs and tents has mushroomed to include equipment for outdoor sports as varied as cross-country skiing or fly fishing. DIVERSIFY    As baby boomers married and began to raise children, more chose day hikes or more convenient overnight stays in campgrounds, say Jim Wilson of the back- country office at Rocky Mountain National Park. …    … (examples of stores diversifying) …    Dan Hare, manager of The Boulder Mountaineer, said his sales of backpacks and sleeping bags continues to increase, but "lots of people buy backpacks that never go into the back country," he added.    Shannon Long, manager at the Boulder Army Store, has noticed more of his customers are car camping and buying more for convenience.  Such campers, however, often opt for the more expensive lines.    "Ten years ago, people weren’t buying high-tech stuff.  They weren’t into buying brand names.  They were more concerned about getting a good product for a low price."    Clothing is a big seller for most outdoor shops.  Color are big, as are brand names and high fashion, mountain store owners agree.    Everybody likes rugby shirts and cotton shorts, said Phil Hollman, salesman at The North Face.  "Colors and style – people are really taken with that as much as we like to think they weren’t," Hollman said.  "Everything is getting more specialized: new technologies, new fabrics, lighter weight and very colorful."    Wools and cottons are taking a back seat to newer, more durable and comfortable fabrics such as Goretex, Dudley said.  And with the newer fabrics come higher prices.    The "tech heads" want the best, Noel added.  People want the fiberglass tent poles, the lightweight backpacks and the warmer, more water repellant clothing even if it means higher prices.    Some salespeople at moutaineering shops, however, are a bit hesitant to see their lines diversify too much.  Many tempered their enthusiasm for expansion with a note of service to the true back country lover.    Image and brand names mean more to people than store managers care to admit, [Mountain Sports buyer Scott] Lee said.  "We’re not quite as trendy a store as some …  We don’t want to lose our image as a mountaineering shop."

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