Question:

And, there are plenty of obnoxious people who aren’t wealthy. Snoop

Is it really necessary or proper to talk about me behind my back in a public forum? Op

Response:

Nothing funny about that IMO.

I didn’t say *you* would think it was funny. <g But I do. Kind of like moving to a whorehouse to be around pretty girls – you have to put up with the occasional customer. — Charlie…

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  I fished the Bighorn on Wed & Thurs.

I’m jealous! Usually, I get over there for a few days this time of year, but it doesn’t look like I’ll make it this spring. I have no idea how one would go about fishing a dry with all of the stuff on the water.

I’ll occassionally use a parachute-style with a flourescent orange post. You might be surprised. There were some dirty orange scuds and one black leach about 3 inches long.

Streamers. Big, ugly, heavy streamers… on a sink-tip…swinging and stripping….swing and stripping (could be new lines for another song, Warren) We saw a few sports at the cafe that were really decked out.

You gotta love Polly’s! A great place to eat…..and probably the only place in the state where they’d look at you funny if you WEREN’T wearing waders. I’ll bet the pressure is on the guides to get these high rollers some fish. Kevin and I derived some perverse pleasure in catching fish right in front of the high rollers while the guide was trying to help them get a cast out at least 10 feet:)

There is NOTHING more frustrating than to have fish slurping away in front of you and your people just CANNOT put it together to get the fly past the oar. AAARRRGGGHHH! On a side note: Did they all have on the big "hair ball" "bazooka blobs" "exploding fireworks" kinda strike indicators that you can see for a gazillion feet??? — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022

Response:

I’ll occassionally use a parachute-style with a flourescent orange post. You might be surprised.

  Good idea.  I should have thought of that.  I did have one fish come close to taking my flor. green strike indicator.  I’ll give it a try next time I go. You gotta love Polly’s! A great place to eat…..and probably the only place in the state where they’d look at you funny if you WEREN’T wearing waders.

  I like it because it’s a cheap place to stay in the off season.  The food’s pretty good, too, but a little overpriced.  I had the steak sandwich Wed. night.  It was really good but didn’t "sit well" and I was up half the night.  Meat tenderizer?  The really cheap rooms at the cafe were booked so Kevin and I got the trailer.  That costs $36.00/head but it was nice and roomy.  I think you could sleep 8 or 9 people there but I’ll bet they close it up and winterize for the off season. On a side note: Did they all have on the big "hair ball" "bazooka blobs" "exploding fireworks" kinda strike indicators that you can see for a gazillion feet???

  Yes, there were quite a few of those on the river.  I tried them once and didn’t like them.  I use the larger foam floats with the slit down the side and a piece of rubber through the center.  They seem to cast better for me, are easily adjustable and always float.  What’s the deal with the giant fluff balls?  No wonder so many people have trouble casting in the wind.  Wouldn’t they get along better with the more streamlined floats?   Also, as a guide, do you have any humorous stories to tell?  I think most guides must earn every penny.  Looks like a tough life to me.  Also looks like a good way to turn an enjoyable hobby into drudgery. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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I didn’t say *you* would think it was funny. <g But I do. Kind of like moving to a whorehouse to be around pretty girls – you have to put up with the occasional customer.

Well, whatever floats your boat there Charlie.

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Well, whatever floats your boat there Charlie.

I don’t think it’s my boat that’s bothering you… — Charlie…

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Nothing funny about that IMO. I didn’t say *you* would think it was funny. <g But I do. Kind of like moving to a whorehouse to be around pretty girls – you have to put up with the occasional customer.

As one of the very people you described (first visited here for the fishing and camping, then moved here for the fishing and camping), I agree with you that it’s funny.  What’s even funnier is that we don’t really mind the tourists, despite our griping, as long as they remain tourists.  What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did. JR

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As one of the very people you described (first visited here for the fishing and camping, then moved here for the fishing and camping), I agree with you that it’s funny.  What’s even funnier is that we don’t really mind the tourists, despite our griping, as long as they remain tourists.  What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did.

You should see how annoyed the whorehouses get under similar circumstances ! TL MC

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As one of the very people you described (first visited here for the fishing and camping, then moved here for the fishing and camping), I agree with you that it’s funny.  What’s even funnier is that we don’t really mind the tourists, despite our griping, as long as they remain tourists.  What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did.

That’s funny. How about it, Warren? Do you have a come back? (I’m saying that as an unapologetic, recent, fair-weather Idaho transplant.) Where do you live, JR? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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 What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did.

Yep. I hope to share that feeling about someplace, someday. <g — Charlie…

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Where do you live, JR?

Bend, Oregon, which was a wonderful place before I arrived, became a true paradise on earth for a while after I got here, and is now a stinking hell hole, altogether a far, far less attractive place than many I can think of in Idaho and Montana. JR

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As one of the very people you described (first visited here for the fishing and camping, then moved here for the fishing and camping), I agree with you that it’s funny.  What’s even funnier is that we don’t really mind the tourists, despite our griping, as long as they remain tourists.  What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did. You should see how annoyed the whorehouses get under similar circumstances !

I dunno, amateur night at the local is always an " uplifting " experience. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TL MC

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That’s funny. How about it, Warren? Do you have a come back? (I’m saying that as an unapologetic, recent, fair-weather Idaho transplant.)

Yeah I have a come back.  You got to draw the line somewhere so I move that we start with RW. ~ Seriously though, JR is right to some degree.  When you move somewhere and become accustomed to a certain quality of living, you have to do what you can to protect it.  If I moved to an area because it was remote, had everything that I wanted and the very reasons why I moved here were threatened due to overcrowding, you better believe I am going to bitch when things start getting crowded. Most of it isn’t so much the number of people but the quality around here. Californians are equated as being liberal tree huggers who want their 20 acre "ranch" along the river and despise the stream access laws.  It is somewhat true, but there are a lot of people from back East who are far worse in my experiences.  It is a more a quality of the people coming issue. Natives don’t give me any crap for being an ex resident of California because I hold many of the same views as they do and am not a threat to the quality of life. Now that I am a resident and have been for several years, am bound to this valley by blood that I cannot leave, I am somewhat trapped.  I do not make any money off tourism and never have.  Tourists decend in hoards upon the rivers that I fish year around and force me to either brave the masses or fish somewhere else.  It doesn’t bother me too much because I don’t go the rivers where I feel like I can’t fish.  I have plenty of places to fish, even on the crowded rivers, that see fewer people. In some areas it is a problem and that isn’t just me saying that.  That is the opinion of users of the resources when polled by the DFW.  The Beaverhead is a prime example of that.  I think I told the story about how I was there opening day last year and the place was so crowded you couldn’t even find a campsite.  Two Montana plates, the rest from out of state. My take on this, and Charlie can laugh if he wants to, is that I am a resident.  I pay taxes here, I live here, the water was deeded over to the state by the federal government (if you need legal citings, I can provide them).  It is property of the state, not the union.  Our state Constitution is not applicable to residents of other states in regards to property.  Just like you don’t go by Montana property laws if you live outside of Montana and we don’t go by other state’s laws.  Being a resident and being governed by the state Constitution and the laws of Montana, I should have a greater right to the water than someone from out of state.  It is a right under our Constitution, BTW. I am not calling for an outright ban on out of state anglers or anything like that, just some limits so that residents of this state can enjoy what is theirs once in a while.  I was hoping they were going to either give river permits on a limited basis on crowded waters to out of state anglers, or set aside certain days for residents.  There is only one river that I have fished where this is necessary and that is the Beaverhead.  The Big Horn is a much larger river and even when crowded, I have never felt like I was lacking water to fish.  Same thing on the Madison.  I find there is plenty of water to fish and only a few areas that are really crowded to the point where there are problems and the quality of the experience is diminished due to the crowds.  The whole issue of crowds is a seasonal case anyways.  I always have the winters to enjoy being one of the few people on a river, if not the only person. That’s my story and I am sticking to it. <g — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

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Bend, Oregon, which was a wonderful place before I arrived, became a true paradise on earth for a while after I got here, and is now a stinking hell hole, altogether a far, far less attractive place than many I can think of in Idaho and Montana.

That’s just an outright lie.  Idaho is the best place to be.  Montana is scorched Earth, whirling disease desimated trout streams, New Zealand mud snail infested, and dirt poor.  Idaho on the other hand isn’t as bad off. Oregon is the best place in the world to be though.  They have good paying jobs, excellent hunting and their fishing is one of the best kept secrets in the lower 48. HTH — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

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Bend, Oregon, which was a wonderful place before I arrived, became a true paradise on earth for a while after I got here, and is now a stinking hell hole, altogether a far, far less attractive place than many I can think of in Idaho and Montana. That’s just an outright lie.  Idaho is the best place to be.  Montana is scorched Earth, whirling disease desimated trout streams, New Zealand mud snail infested, and dirt poor.  Idaho on the other hand isn’t as bad off. Oregon is the best place in the world to be though.  They have good paying jobs, excellent hunting and their fishing is one of the best kept secrets in the lower 48. HTH

Well, there’s another damnable lie (about Oregon, the Calcutta of the West), but at least it’s offset by the God’s honest truth about Idaho: the new Jerusalem, brothers, an Elysian utopia with trout the size of snowmobiles and blissful citizens (of the very highest ethical standards, mind you) ready to welcome their fellow sportsmen with open arms.  Every fishing and hunting guide a nubile ex-cheerleader who makes Angie look like Howard Stern.  Every publican and shopkeeper a source of freely shared information– earned over a lifetime–about honey holes where the steelhead chase each other off in order to be the first to impale themselves on your hook. Fishing in Oregon?!?!  Oh, my.  A long time ago, maybe.  Now you could catch more fish out of the average toilet bowl in New York City, son.  And even that was before the Terrible Drought of 2001, a sure harbinger of impending ecological collapse.  These days, before you can tie on a fly in Oregon you have to file an environmental impact statement.  Hell’s bells. Everyone *here* is moving to Idaho! JR

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It’s also funny to see people who live in states that make a bunch of money from tourism bitch about tourists, especially the ones who were tourists there once themselves. <g

I don’t make any money off of tourism either directly or indirectly and haven’t been any tourist related industries.  I moved to Montana without ever coming as a tourist.  I got accepted to school out here, had relatives who used to live out here and moved based on pictures, school, and their opinion of the place, and the promises of good fishing and hunting.  I am now a legal resident, have been for 5 years, I was married here, my daughter was born here and I am trapped here until my daughter gets older.  Nothing funny about that IMO. — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

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A few more trips and you will have a new definition of crowded.  Glad you caught lots of fish, always makes the trip more enjoyable.  I hear you on the high rollers who can’t cast.  Catching fish in front of them is always a blast and I am happy you got that experience

  Oh, yeah, you have some experience being in a boat with a tyro who couldn’t cast, don’t you?  Did your "line welts" heal up?   I’m afraid I came off anti elitist.  It’s not any of my business how much someone wants to spend on their hobby.  They aren’t any different from you or me.  They just want to have fun.  Of course, they can buy a lot more fun than a lot of us:)  Still, I can’t help suffering from some smug satisfaction when I catch fish on my $40.00 Three Forks while they flail away with their $2,500 bamboo rods.  (Heck, I’m still trying to save money for one of G’s moderately priced bamboo rods.)  Once I get my last daughter out of college I may be able to splurge a bit.  My goal in life is to end up like Charlie—-80 rods with a deluxe reel for each one.  But, I won’t take it as far as he does.  You know, long finger nails, long gray beard and hair, sleeps with all his rods, wears a white gown and sprays everyone and everything with disinfectant spray and designs large, wooden airplanes:) Snoop —

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The ones that crack me up are those that think their money will get them fish.  My buddy that guided in Idaho last summer had some stories about several rich, stuck up people who didn’t want to learn how to do things the right way, but thought that the gear they bought and the money they spent on a trip guaranteed them success.  Money does not equate with skill or success and it is hard for these people to realize that.  When I see them out there flailing the water into a froth giving dirty looks to their guides as if it is his fault, I get a laugh.  Especially after I pull out fish right in front of them.  It isn’t that I am against people with money who fish, hell I fish with RW don’t I?

  Anyone, wealthy or not, who goes to the expense and time to travel to fish with a guide and doesn’t take local advice gets what they deserve. I have a good friend who guided in Alaska for 20+ years.  Had a couple of jet boats and a Cessna 180 on floats.  He guided hunters and fishermen.  We’ve sat around a few campfires and listened to his stories.  Very interesting.  The hunters were the worst.  Generally, the fishermen were easier to be around.  The bear stories were hair raising and I don’t think I care to fly with any Alaska bush pilots.  (Well, actually, I don’t like flying with anyone else but my friend who’s a retired 747 pilot.) It is the attitude of the rich, stuck up snobs that I enjoy tweaking.  I have met several people who had tons of money out fishing and were actually very eager to learn and asked lots of questions.  Those types of people I like, very down to earth and just willing to learn because they love fly fishing.  It is the ones who have to announce to an entire fly shop that they need to use their Platinum card to buy half dozen flies as if we should be impressed that they have a Platinum card that piss me off, the ones like Peter posted about at one of the fly shops he goes to with the guy’s buddy looking at a reel, etc.  I enjoy watching them suffer when they go fishless because they are too stubborn and stuck up to listen to the "hired help" or "riff raff".  They are out there and certainly do exist.  I have found the Big Horn to have a high concentration of those types of people.

  Yep, those are the people who rub me the wrong way.  But, they’re not necessarily rich.  A lot of those clowns are up to their necks in credit card debt and are one pay check away from losing cars, houses and their mistresses.  And, there are plenty of obnoxious people who aren’t wealthy. Snoop —

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 I enjoy watching them suffer when they go fishless because they are too stubborn and stuck up to listen to the "hired help" or "riff raff".  They are out there and certainly do exist.  I have found the Big Horn to have a high concentration of those types of people.

It’s also funny to see people who live in states that make a bunch of money from tourism bitch about tourists, especially the ones who were tourists there once themselves. <g — Charlie…

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My goal in life is to end up like Charlie—-80 rods with a deluxe reel for each one.  But, I won’t take it as far as he does.  You know, long finger nails, long gray beard and hair, sleeps with all his rods, wears a white gown and sprays everyone and everything with disinfectant spray and designs large, wooden airplanes:)

    That’s my late uncle Howie you’re describing. I helped him write his will, but I don’t want to be like him.

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  Oh, yeah, you have some experience being in a boat with a tyro who couldn’t cast, don’t you?  Did your "line welts" heal up?

Yeah, the line welts went away and the lump from getting nailed by split shot and bead heads eventually went away also.   I’m afraid I came off anti elitist.  It’s not any of my business how much someone wants to spend on their hobby.  They aren’t any different from you or me.  They just want to have fun.  Of course, they can buy a lot more fun than a lot of us:)  Still, I can’t help suffering from some smug satisfaction when I catch fish on my $40.00 Three Forks while they flail away with their $2,500 bamboo rods.

The ones that crack me up are those that think their money will get them fish.  My buddy that guided in Idaho last summer had some stories about several rich, stuck up people who didn’t want to learn how to do things the right way, but thought that the gear they bought and the money they spent on a trip guaranteed them success.  Money does not equate with skill or success and it is hard for these people to realize that.  When I see them out there flailing the water into a froth giving dirty looks to their guides as if it is his fault, I get a laugh.  Especially after I pull out fish right in front of them.  It isn’t that I am against people with money who fish, hell I fish with RW don’t I? It is the attitude of the rich, stuck up snobs that I enjoy tweaking.  I have met several people who had tons of money out fishing and were actually very eager to learn and asked lots of questions.  Those types of people I like, very down to earth and just willing to learn because they love fly fishing.  It is the ones who have to announce to an entire fly shop that they need to use their Platinum card to buy half dozen flies as if we should be impressed that they have a Platinum card that piss me off, the ones like Peter posted about at one of the fly shops he goes to with the guy’s buddy looking at a reel, etc.  I enjoy watching them suffer when they go fishless because they are too stubborn and stuck up to listen to the "hired help" or "riff raff".  They are out there and certainly do exist.  I have found the Big Horn to have a high concentration of those types of people. — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

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  I fished the Bighorn on Wed & Thurs.  It was a great trip.  I caught 9 fish on Wed. and 18 on Thursday.  That’s more like it!  

Thanks for the report. I also find larger rivers more difficult to fish (and less fun) than smaller waters. It is more like lake fishing to me. Since they are so large and usually so deep, fish holding and feeding areas often must be inferred rather than observed. A low gradient river like the Bighorn is even more difficult. Willi

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Thanks for the report. I also find larger rivers more difficult to fish (and less fun) than smaller waters. It is more like lake fishing to me. Since they are so large and usually so deep, fish holding and feeding areas often must be inferred rather than observed. A low gradient river like the Bighorn is even more difficult. Willi

  One of the biggest problems I face is the amount of weight needed to fish deeper holes and/or fast current. Slinging all that weight with an indicator and dropper fly all day in the wind is not my idea of great fun. Snoop —

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A few more trips and you will have a new definition of crowded.  Glad you caught lots of fish, always makes the trip more enjoyable.  I hear you on the high rollers who can’t cast.  Catching fish in front of them is always a blast and I am happy you got that experience

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I fished the Bighorn on Wed & Thurs.  It was a great trip.  I caught 9 fish on Wed. and 18 on Thursday.  That’s more like it!  As I said in another post, I couldn’t believe the number (tons ?) of midges on the water and in the air.  With all of the midges available, we saw very little surface action.  I have no idea how one would go about fishing a dry with all of the stuff on the water.  Perhaps an unrelated, larger fly like a Royal Wulff?   All of the action for us was on nymphs, scuds or midge pupa.  One of the hottest flies was the brown/tan thread body, black thread head that I learned about at the San Juan clave tied on size 20 & 22 hooks.  The guy that I was fishing with (Kevin) kept a few Browns and checked stomach contents.  Most of the contents were the little brown/gray midge pupa.  There were some dirty orange scuds and one black leach about 3 inches long.  We caught about half browns and half bows.  No whitefish this time.   We floated from 3 mile to Bighorn both days.  The river was crowded but I guess I’m getting more used to it. We did fish one side channel that was too shallow for drift boats and spent a lot of time there both days.  We had no one else fish through so it was quite enjoyable.  This was probably the best area we fished on this trip.  I think this kind of water is easier to fish.  The main river just seems so big and intimidating and I have a hard time knowing where to start to fish. There’s just so many choices.  It seems like a lot of places I think are "fishy" don’t have any fish that I can catch.   I spent a lot of time watching other fishermen and the guides.  Kind of a fun pastime but probably responsible for a lot of missed fish.  We saw 2 beautiful wood drift boats that looked like they came off the showroom floor.  It was interesting watching all of the different experience levels of fishermen.  It seemed like there were a lot of novices on the stream these 2 days.  We saw a few sports at the cafe that were really decked out.  Looked like they just fell off the cover of a LL Bean catalog.  Some of those guys had more money invested in one rod that I have in all my fishing gear.  I guess a few of the resorts up there are $500/day.  I’d like to visit with a few of those guys just to see what they think about the whole deal.  I imagine flying into Billings from big cities in the east or west would be kind of a mind blower.  Wonder what they thought when they traveled through the "beautiful" town of Lodge Grass or finally arrived at Ft Smith?  I’ll bet they felt like they were at the end of the world.  I’ll bet the pressure is on the guides to get these high rollers some fish.  Kevin and I derived some perverse pleasure in catching fish right in front of the high rollers while the guide was trying to help them get a cast out at least 10 feet:)  Of course, we were all the style what with our North Dakota drift boat (20 year old John boat) and our flashy dress (we looked like all of the roffers I’ve met at claves with the exception of Charlie who is always spiffed up to a "T", I suppose in case he runs across a high class book store or brothel).   I suppose that’s my last trip to the Horn until late fall.  We should be thawing at the higher elevations shortly around here and I’ll be going to work in a couple of weeks which will really raise hell with fishing for awhile:( Snoop —

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  I fished the Bighorn on Wed & Thurs.  It was a great trip.  I caught 9 fish on Wed. and 18 on Thursday.  That’s more like it!  As I said in another post, I couldn’t believe the number (tons ?) of midges on the water and in the air.  With all of the midges available, we saw very little surface action.  I have no idea how one would go about fishing a dry with all of the stuff on the water.  Perhaps an unrelated, larger fly like a Royal Wulff?   All of the action for us was on nymphs, scuds or midge pupa.  One of the hottest flies was the brown/tan thread body, black thread head that I learned about at the San Juan clave tied on size 20 & 22 hooks.  The guy that I was fishing with (Kevin) kept a few Browns and checked stomach contents.  Most of the contents were the little brown/gray midge pupa.  There were some dirty orange scuds and one black leach about 3 inches long.  We caught about half browns and half bows.  No whitefish this time.   We floated from 3 mile to Bighorn both days.  The river was crowded but I guess I’m getting more used to it. We did fish one side channel that was too shallow for drift boats and spent a lot of time there both days.  We had no one else fish through so it was quite enjoyable.  This was probably the best area we fished on this trip.  I think this kind of water is easier to fish.  The main river just seems so big and intimidating and I have a hard time knowing where to start to fish. There’s just so many choices.  It seems like a lot of places I think are "fishy" don’t have any fish that I can catch.   I spent a lot of time watching other fishermen and the guides.  Kind of a fun pastime but probably responsible for a lot of missed fish.  We saw 2 beautiful wood drift boats that looked like they came off the showroom floor.  It was interesting watching all of the different experience levels of fishermen.  It seemed like there were a lot of novices on the stream these 2 days.  We saw a few sports at the cafe that were really decked out.  Looked like they just fell off the cover of a LL Bean catalog.  Some of those guys had more money invested in one rod that I have in all my fishing gear.  I guess a few of the resorts up there are $500/day.  I’d like to visit with a few of those guys just to see what they think about the whole deal.  I imagine flying into Billings from big cities in the east or west would be kind of a mind blower.  Wonder what they thought when they traveled through the "beautiful" town of Lodge Grass or finally arrived at Ft Smith?  I’ll bet they felt like they were at the end of the world.  I’ll bet the pressure is on the guides to get these high rollers some fish.  Kevin and I derived some perverse pleasure in catching fish right in front of the high rollers while the guide was trying to help them get a cast out at least 10 feet:)  Of course, we were all the style what with our North Dakota drift boat (20 year old John boat) and our flashy dress (we looked like all of the roffers I’ve met at claves with the exception of Charlie who is always spiffed up to a "T", I suppose in case he runs across a high class book store or brothel).   I suppose that’s my last trip to the Horn until late fall.  We should be thawing at the higher elevations shortly around here and I’ll be going to work in a couple of weeks which will really raise hell with fishing for awhile:( Snoop —

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Question:

I snuck out of the room a bit before 4am today, 400 miles and 6 hours later I was home, and now am at work. I don’t have time to write a report now, but will do so soon. We all had a great time and lot’s of nice fish to go around…it was real cool to meet all the people who showed up. More will follow, JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

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Sometimes life just aint fair. They get to fish and miss muskie’s posts as well.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I snuck out of the room a bit before 4am today, 400 miles and 6 hours later I was home, and now am at work. I don’t have time to write a report now, but will do so soon. We all had a great time and lot’s of nice fish to go around…it was real cool to meet all the people who showed up. More will follow, JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

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….More will follow…..

Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button

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Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button

Forty…I know its Forty.  Now, who am I supposed to collect that dozen flys from? — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

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Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button Forty…I know its Forty.  Now, who am I supposed to collect that dozen flys from?

If they actually got into it, I suspect the real winner had the iodine and BandAid concession.  My guess it never came to anything, so it’d be who ever had closest to "415" in the "How many times will each one say ‘no, you first’ before _everyone_ falls asleep" pool. TC, R

Response:

I wish I had time to recount the activities in question, but I’m late….. Danl (the white rabbit) PS Lots of nice fish, great company, and a great job by Bruce Hopper on the organizational side. Y’all shoudda been dere!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ….More will follow….. Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button

Response:

I wish I had time to recount the activities in question, but I’m late….. Danl (the white rabbit)

thought…..wonder if we should call the arlo…….    :( Wolfgang

Response:

: More will follow, Sorry, still busy, I thought I might have time today, but hopefully tomorrow morning…as for what this thread morphed into, I will not address that ’cause clave reports ought to be about the positives, not some imaginary negatives that people are playing up… JonCook.

Response:

: More will follow, Sorry, still busy, I thought I might have time today, but hopefully tomorrow morning…as for what this thread morphed into, I will not address that ’cause clave reports ought to be about the positives, not some imaginary negatives that people are playing up…

Curses, abashed again!    :) Wolfgang comfortable in the assumption that the blood letting was restricted to cold blooded species

Response:

: More will follow, Sorry, still busy, I thought I might have time today, but hopefully tomorrow morning…as for what this thread morphed into, I will not address that ’cause clave reports ought to be about the positives, not some imaginary negatives that people are playing up… JonCook.

        wtf, jon, are you *really* the incarnate soul of tinker bell?         just curious.  my kids might want a couple autographed photos. wayno

Response:

: More will follow, Sorry, still busy, I thought I might have time today, but hopefully tomorrow morning…as for what this thread morphed into, I will not address that ’cause clave reports ought to be about the positives, not some imaginary negatives that people are playing up… Curses, abashed again!    :) Wolfgang comfortable in the assumption that the blood letting was restricted to cold blooded species

Well, we’ve heard from Forty… /daytripper (rw? hallooooooo rw?)

Response:

Well since there were four of us that made predictions (myself, Petah, Tripper and Wayne) I’ll ante up 1/3 the flies. Wayne, email me your address and I’ll tie some for you. Petah, Tripper, We fucked up we trusted Louie. Louie, tell us you at least got wet. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button Forty…I know its Forty.  Now, who am I supposed to collect that dozen flys from? — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

Response:

Jon, You got back a little before I did and beat me to it.  Now are you going to say just who was it that: 1.  Had horrible plane connections coming and going because of the mid-western (read Chicago) weather? 2.  Whose luggage was lost; at least overnight? 3.  Whose commode got stopped up? 4.  Who fell in the river and got completely wet? 5.  Who buried a hook in their hand?  Yes, it was a #24 6.  Whose beer still had active yeast in it? days. 8.  What the average daily temperature was? 9.  Whose looking forward to the next Clave? 10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we really should have been fishing) group is really looking forward to the next Clave? Need I go on? Bob in El Paso – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I snuck out of the room a bit before 4am today, 400 miles and 6 hours later I was home, and now am at work. I don’t have time to write a report now, but will do so soon. We all had a great time and lot’s of nice fish to go around…it was real cool to meet all the people who showed up. More will follow, JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

Response:

10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we really should have been fishing) group is really looking forward to the next Clave?

A ha! So there *was* a fight!! –Steve

Response:

10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we really should have been fishing) group is really looking forward to the next Clave? A ha! So there *was* a fight!! –Steve

Yeah, but wuz there any sissy boys sighted? Frank (muy bueno tutu senior!) Church —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Frank (muy bueno tutu senior!) Church

my beans wear frilly little dresses old man? Joe (monolingual) F.

Response:

Me too Joe, I tried to say "very pretty tutu senior" but I’m lacking a way to put that little ~ in there.  I should stick to pig latin I guess. Frank (knoi knoi) Church Frank (muy bueno tutu senior!) Church my beans wear frilly little dresses old man? Joe (monolingual) F.

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Sunday morning Willi, Danl, and I piled into Danl’s rent-a-car and drove up to the Texas Hole parking lot, where everybody agreed to start that day. Willi announced he was going to fish dries all day (though allowing for an emerger dropper), and brought only the beautiful Zimmerman "Troutmaster" rod to fish with. When we got out and started setting up, Willi couldn’t find his sunglasses, so he drove back to get them. Danl and I made our way to the river, set up and started fishing. 20 minutes pass and neither of us has had a hit, even though you could see some fish feeding. About then Willi steps out of the brush, walks into the river, and says, "Hey there, how’s it goin — Oh, got one!". No kidding, Willi is the Troutmaster. Willi did fall prey to the sunglasses thief that morning, and had to buy new ones. I fell prey the next morning, but had a backup pair. Willi and Danl headed down while I stayed on trying to catch the fish working in front of me, quite unsuccessfully I might add. Oh I caught a couple of smaller ones (13" or so), but the larger ones refused my offerings. One lesson I learned is that I don’t give up as soon as I should. There are so many fish up there that if you’re on some that are refusing everything, you might as well move. I finally moved downstream and met Danl and Ken coming back up to break for lunch. Ken had just taken a nice fish in a backwater, and Danl had taken one earlier with Willi. I passed them and caught a couple more small ones when Willi saw me he called out "Come down here, I found some big fish rising". I went down and sure enough right there were some nice fish rising fairly often. I think I had a foam wing emerger on, and on my first cast one of them took it, but it wasn’t a good hookup and I lost him. I kept fishing for that group, but they’d inspect my fly and refuse it every time. I finally concluded that Willi had already caught all those, because when I first walked up he said he had taken a half dozen nice fish from there (or was it a dozen?). He was below me during this and regularly hooking some smaller fish, and I was doing the same but about 1/2 as often (up to about 14"). He finally hooked a nice one and I was going to get a picture of the Zimmerman rod in fighting position, but he lost it before I could get the camera out. I’m sure he caught more nice ones but after that I didn’t try to get pictures. I must be skipping some part of Sunday, because I did land a couple of nice ones somewhere — I remember because one had a length of leader coming out of its butt. Yes, the fish do pay a price for our fun… The big lesson I learned Sunday (other than moving more often) was that yes, size does matter (for non-Troutmasters). Charlie’s jokes about #62 parameciums are spot on, and that night I bought a pack of #24’s for the evening’s tying session… JonCook.

Response:

I can guess at a few of these 1.  Had horrible plane connections coming and going because of the mid-western (read Chicago) weather?

KEN 5.  Who buried a hook in their hand?  Yes, it was a #24

BOB S, and i’m blaming his big fish, which was in my net 6.  Whose beer still had active yeast in it?

CHARLIE

TAKE YOUR PICK 8.  What the average daily temperature was?

ZERO 9.  Whose looking forward to the next Clave? 10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we

YES AND YES was great Bob, see you in the Jemez. bruce h — bare your soul let your spirit burn out along the road to no return – r.e. keen

Response:

Well, we’ve heard from Forty… /daytripper (rw? hallooooooo rw?)

I’m somewhat disappointed to report that Fortenberry didn’t talk to me at the San Juan Clave in the same style that he uses in ROFF while sitting in front of his computer at home drinking Laphroig, or however the hell you spell it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jon, You got back a little before I did and beat me to it.  Now are you going to say just who was it that: 1.  Had horrible plane connections coming and going because of the mid-western (read Chicago) weather? 2.  Whose luggage was lost; at least overnight? 3.  Whose commode got stopped up? 4.  Who fell in the river and got completely wet? 5.  Who buried a hook in their hand?  Yes, it was a #24 6.  Whose beer still had active yeast in it? days. 8.  What the average daily temperature was? 9.  Whose looking forward to the next Clave? 10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we really should have been fishing) group is really looking forward to the next Clave? Need I go on?

Who lost his net, his lead, and some other damn thing (gloves?). BTW, LaPlac, I have a good photo of you fishing the Kiddie Pool. Just wait. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I’m somewhat disappointed to report that Fortenberry didn’t talk to me at the San Juan Clave in the same style that he uses in ROFF while sitting in front of his computer at home drinking Laphroig, or however the hell you spell it.

Wow, who would have ever figured that one out . . . . — Warren

Response:

Someone sent me an email, I believe under this thread’s subject, and I accidentally deleted it before reading it while I was throwing out the morning spam. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

rw,    Ken may be an asshole but he isn’t stupid.  I,am glad you two didn’t tangle and spoil the Clave fellowship.  I would think you had enough excitement with all the good fishing and meeting new ROFFian’s.  Count your blessings. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m somewhat disappointed to report that Fortenberry didn’t talk to me at the San Juan Clave in the same style that he uses in ROFF while sitting in front of his computer at home drinking Laphroig, or however the hell you spell it.

Response:

Zimbo dreaming writes: A ha! So there *was* a fight!!

Yeah!  I kicked Fortenberry’s ass!  I enjoy it by closing my eyes and thinking Louie, alive and well in Yankeeville…..

Response:

Still having that little identification problem, eh?  Perhaps a google search on "poor people"? Hey that helped clear it up, thanks. http://www.creativeworks.ch/musicians/pw2.htm

wow.  major zinger. In two years on the usenet, I cannot think of a single time I have been so deeply or so deftly cut.  You got a real gift there!  I had wondered whether you really came back because you weren’t getting enough opportunities to whine wherever else it is you hang out, but now I see that your real agenda was simply to unload some of your heavy munitions!  I find myself, somewhat paradoxically, both humbled and proud that you consider me worthy of such herculean efforts.  Might I be so bold as to suggest that a stunning career in satire awaits you, should you decide to pursue it?  Of course, careless readers might be left behind by the subtlety of cross born by every great artist.     Wolfgang tag, your it!

Response:

Wolfgang snivelled: In two years on the usenet, I cannot think of a single time I have been so deeply or so deftly cut.

You’ll get over it.  I’m glad you got a chance to talk to me again.  As always, a pleasure playing your little games, and as always, I tire of it.  But don’t feel sad – you’re a cunning linguist and a master baiter (*), so you have a halfway decent chance of goading me into another argument someday.  In the meantime, you and Ken will have to find something else to stroke each other over.  And do try to stop obsessing over me, ‘kay?  TTFN Schattenjaeger. (*) Could it have been you who emailed me the pointer to your own Nazi propaganda just for fun? Regards, Jeff

Response:

You’ll get over it.  I’m glad you got a chance to talk to me again.  As always, a pleasure playing your little games, and as always, I tire of it.  But don’t feel sad – you’re a cunning linguist and a master baiter (*), so you have a halfway decent chance of goading me into another argument someday.  In the meantime, you and Ken will have to find something else to stroke each other over.  And do try to stop obsessing over me, ‘kay?  TTFN Schattenjaeger.

You’re showing modest signs of improvement, Jeff –Steve

Response:

Wolfgang snivelled: In two years on the usenet, I cannot think of a single time I have been so deeply or so deftly cut.

Rats!  Saw right through my pathetic attempt at bravado.      :) ……do try to stop obsessing over me, ‘kay?

Yeah, I’ll try.  But it’s going to be tough! (*) Could it have been you who emailed me the pointer to your own Nazi propaganda just for fun?

Nah, secret communiqu

Question:

2 months?  Lucky bastard. Don’t go anywhere near Cherokee, especially this time of year (unless you enjoy being  overwhelmed with tourist-trap garbage). Trout are going to be iffy through the summer, but if you keep trying, you will catch some.  Get advice at the nearest bait seller as to how and where.  You’d be suprized at the size of the trout that are pulled from the slimmest streams. Got a boat?  Fontana offers trout, smallmouth, musky, etc.   Catch or not, relax and enjoy yourself.  You’ll be staying in one of the most spectacular regions in the country.  Avoid the crowds, find a trail up a remote mountainside, and breathe.

Response:

What types of successful fishing is available on this river?  Are small mouth apt to be caught any time?  Are trout happening here?  I will be in the area where the river empties into Lake Fontana for about 2 months.  Thanks for the advice. Before you buy.

Response:

I believe it is regularly stocked with rainbow trout.  Also, just north of there, on the Cherokee Indian Reservation, the Tribe regularly stocks their streams with trout.  You can pay them a fee and probably catch your limit of brownies and rainbows.  Take a fly rod if you have one. What types of successful fishing is available on this river?  Are small mouth apt to be caught any time?  Are trout happening here?  I will be in the area where the river empties into Lake Fontana for about 2 months.  Thanks for the advice. Before you buy.

– To e-mail me, remove the "d"

Response:

Question:

One of the best ways to share the world with a child, is through books. Read about it, then go do it. Your child will do the same with his children.

Response:

My son and I just got finished reading "Blackberries in the Dark" by Mavis Jukes.  It’s about a young boys first experience fly fishing. I’ll skip the reviews. However, my eight year old loved it and wants to me to read it to him again tomorrow night. It’s 60 pages and was under $4.00. Paul

Response:

Paul I don’t ever consider introducing a young one to fly fishing, even if only in a book, as off topic.  How many of us grew up reading adventures into space with Heinlein or the like.  We grew up looking to the astronauts as heros.  Perhaps if some of those adventures had involved fly fishermen, I would have looked on my father as the true hero that he was just that little bit earlier.  Thank you for helping us find some thing that we can start that sharing process with our young ones.               Frank Reid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My son and I just got finished reading "Blackberries in the Dark" by Mavis Jukes.  It’s about a young boys first experience fly fishing. I’ll skip the reviews. However, my eight year old loved it and wants to me to read it to him again tomorrow night. It’s 60 pages and was under $4.00. Paul

Response:

My son and I just got finished reading "Blackberries in the Dark" by Mavis Jukes.  It’s about a young boys first experience fly fishing. I’ll skip the reviews. However, my eight year old loved it and wants to me to read it to him again tomorrow night. It’s 60 pages and was under $4.00.

Thanks.   I’ll check it out. Joe F.

Response:

Paul I don’t ever consider introducing a young one to fly fishing, even if only in a book, as off topic.  How many of us grew up reading adventures into space with Heinlein or the like.  We grew up looking to the astronauts as heros.               Frank Reid

Heinlein, Asimov, and others!  "Oh Those Golden Ships"! So many dreams, all of great value even if unrealized. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

If you like to watch fishing on the Outdoorlife network then goto the following site and vote for fishing/hunting or all we will be seeing is horses bicycles and kayaks http://www.greatoutdoors.com/oln/yes.html Thanks Rob

Response:

just want to let you know that i wrote a java program to constantly vote for fishing.  you should have already noticed the rapid increase in percentage points luke

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you like to watch fishing on the Outdoorlife network then goto the following site and vote for fishing/hunting or all we will be seeing is horses bicycles and kayaks http://www.greatoutdoors.com/oln/yes.html Thanks Rob

Response:

Unfortunatly someone must have noticed and wrote a program of their own to vote for conservation…which i also like, but still want to keep fishing first. (looks like i’m just going to have to span 5 more copies of my program luke

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-no-archive: yes just want to let you know that i wrote a java program to constantly vote for fishing.  you should have already noticed the rapid increase in percentage points Now that explains why the numbers increased faster than I could vote. Great stuff luke.

Response:

(looks like i’m just going to have to span 5 more copies of my program

For cryin’ out loud, it’s bad enough that you engage in such puerile bullshit but to come here and brag about it reveals all the social skills of a twisted teenager and the emotional maturity of a juvenile delinquent. Go away and grow up or better yet, just go away. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

well thanks for the kind words. i just happen to like fly fishing on OLN.  Sorry you disagree. Luke. p.s. not a teenager.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (looks like i’m just going to have to span 5 more copies of my program For cryin’ out loud, it’s bad enough that you engage in such puerile bullshit but to come here and brag about it reveals all the social skills of a twisted teenager and the emotional maturity of a juvenile delinquent. Go away and grow up or better yet, just go away. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

well thanks for the kind words. i just happen to like fly fishing on OLN.  Sorry you disagree.

I don’t give a damn how many ballot boxes you can stuff. It’s not particularly clever or cute and the programming decisions of OLN, whatever the hell THAT is, really don’t have anything at all to do with flyfishing anyway. p.s. not a teenager.

Then quit acting like one. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I apologize if i pissed anyone else off.  For those of you who don’t get OLN, its a wonderful network that has many fly fishing shows.  I just wanted to make sure fly fisherman (including myself) didn’t lose that.  This will be my last post. Again, sorry to all of those that i annoyed.  That was not my intention. Luke

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well thanks for the kind words. i just happen to like fly fishing on OLN.  Sorry you disagree. I don’t give a damn how many ballot boxes you can stuff. It’s not particularly clever or cute and the programming decisions of OLN, whatever the hell THAT is, really don’t have anything at all to do with flyfishing anyway. p.s. not a teenager. Then quit acting like one. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I apologize if i pissed anyone else off.  For those of you who don’t get OLN, its a wonderful network that has many fly fishing shows.  I just wanted to make sure fly fisherman (including myself) didn’t lose that.  This will be my last post. Again, sorry to all of those that i annoyed.  That was not my intention.

As Fortenberry carves another notch in his belt. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Then why get on your self-appointed high horse (yet again) and demand that he leave roff?

Because I don’t like smarmy punks bragging about doing something stupid and dishonest in the name of flyfishing. Bite me Powlesland and note the date. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I apologize if i pissed anyone else off.  For those of you who don’t get OLN, its a wonderful network that has many fly fishing shows.  I just wanted to make sure fly fisherman (including myself) didn’t lose that.  This will be my last post. Again, sorry to all of those that i annoyed.  That was not my intention. Luke

The problem being, you’ve invalidated the survey results.  It won’t take a genius at OLN to figure somebody has spiked their results. BTW, judging by the amount Conservation went up, your little java thingy was probably doing both.   Peter

Response:

As Fortenberry carves another notch in his belt.

Always happy to be of service to honest flyfisher folk the world over. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

X-no-archive: yes Because I don’t like smarmy punks bragging about doing something stupid and dishonest in the name of flyfishing. And who appointed a pompous, pretentious, ass like yourself to be the defender of flyfishing’s "name"?

Whoa, I think ‘pretentious’ might be a little strong there… <g — Charlie…

Response:

And who appointed a pompous, pretentious, ass like yourself to be the defender of flyfishing’s "name"?

Golly, what an honor. Insults and name calling from ROFF’s premier stalker. I am humbled, sweetums. I don’t want to replace TBone in your heart of hearts but please, do think of me in your latex fantasies. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

If Jim actually does have dreams, I’d guess they involve untanned leather. 8^) RalphH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Golly, what an honor. Insults and name calling from ROFF’s premier stalker. I am humbled, sweetums. I don’t want to replace TBone in your heart of hearts but please, do think of me in your latex fantasies. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Because I don’t like smarmy punks bragging about doing something stupid and dishonest in the name of flyfishing. And who appointed a pompous, pretentious, ass like yourself to be the defender of flyfishing’s "name"?

I did, in point of fact. And your defense of less-than-honest methods has been noted in the Great Book of Karma. BMPIA. Opt out == cop-out. What’s so hard to understand?

Response:

As for "stalking", why do *you* persist on sending me private email?

Why thank you for asking, my email to you verbatim: Do you EVER post an opinion on flyfishing equipment, a trip report, an answer to a query or ANYTHING save contentious bullshit ? Seriously, Jim, I think you need to seek help, your animosity and stalking behavior is a symptom of an illness. I wish you the best, — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Do you EVER post an opinion on flyfishing equipment, a trip report, an answer to a query or ANYTHING save contentious bullshit ?

FWIW, since deja doesn’t archive ‘no archive’ posts there’s no way to answer this question to your satisfaction, but in my recollection he actually does do those things on occasion and probably more often than ‘your pal’. Just what is a ’stalker stalker’ called, anyway<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Ken Fortenberry! snipped ravings: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Seriously, Jim, I think you need to seek help, your animosity and stalking behavior is a symptom of an illness. I wish you the best,  (NOT!)

Response:

Do you EVER post an opinion on flyfishing equipment, a trip report, an answer to a query or ANYTHING save contentious bullshit ? Yes I do. In fact I was posting quite civilly in roff for the past few months until you decided to barge in and throw insults around.

Gotta give credit where credit is due.  Jim’s been eerily civil lately.      - Ken

Response:

Yes I do. In fact I was posting quite civilly in roff for the past few months until you decided to barge in and throw insults around.

I must’ve missed all that civility, and for the record, I wasn’t insulting you, hell, I wasn’t even talking to you. I was flaming "Brown Trout" to hell and back for the twit script ballot stuffing bullshit. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-no-archive: yes Why thank you for asking, my email to you verbatim: So why bother emailing it to me in the first place? Harassment? Do you EVER post an opinion on flyfishing equipment, a trip report, an answer to a query or ANYTHING save contentious bullshit ? Yes I do. In fact I was posting quite civilly in roff for the past few months until you decided to barge in and throw insults around. Seriously, Jim, I think you need to seek help, your animosity and stalking behavior is a symptom of an illness. This is rich coming from roff’s resident bully. I wish you the best, And I fully intend to stand up to your abusive bluster.

______  Jim you’re welcome to slap him silly when he does become abusive.  His kind of nonsense has to stop.  It is not good for ROFF as he baits the other bottom dwellers when he behaves like this, using his daughter as an excuse to do so, behind the scenes.  He thinks he has rights!  Let’s not buy his personal problems as that excuse to behave badly here.  So far, I dread the first day he showed up here.  I wish he would just go away or get counciling at the University.  He has NOT made this news group any better after all his New Year wishes to everyone. Pathetic.  Truly pathetic and the soon everyone helps stop this kind of conduct will ROFF have a chance of becoming a pleasant place again. We will talk more about it tonight because ROFF has been a regular conversation at the chat site lately. George Gehrke   — http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

You don’t get OLN, you didn’t even know what it was.  You just saw it and decided to be an asshole.  People who do get OLN wrote to thank me.  The reason i did it in the first place was because the ballot was already stuffed (someone else had a program running voting for something else).  We just want to keep our damn fly-fishing shows.  Since you don’t get OLN, and didn’t know what it was, why didn’t you keep your mouth shut?  Couldn’t resist the temptation to be an asshole. I don’t give a damn how many ballot boxes you can stuff. It’s not particularly clever or cute and the programming decisions of OLN, whatever the hell THAT is, really don’t have anything at all to do with flyfishing anyway.

Nothing to do with fly fishing eh?  You are an idiot. Luke

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes I do. In fact I was posting quite civilly in roff for the past few months until you decided to barge in and throw insults around. I must’ve missed all that civility, and for the record, I wasn’t insulting you, hell, I wasn’t even talking to you. I was flaming "Brown Trout" to hell and back for the twit script ballot stuffing bullshit. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

… why didn’t you keep your mouth shut?  Couldn’t resist the temptation to be an asshole.

I’m not tempted to be an asshole, I AM an asshole and one of the things that really peeves me is too clever, punk twits bragging about how cute their little scams are. It’s not cute, fool. It’s dishonest, it’s stupid and bragging about it is even stupider. Take your juvenile nonsense and stick it where the sun don’t shine. Decent, honest people want nothing to do with it. Nothing to do with fly fishing eh?  You are an idiot.

If you think sitting on your twit ass in front of the boob tube has something to do with flyfishing why are you calling ME an idiot ? Here’s a clue, free of charge, TV flyfishing is about selling stuff. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I’m not tempted to be an asshole, I AM an asshole and one

Enough said.

Response:

This is .. how shall I put this politely .. low. Go chat on your nice private ginkspot, but below-the-belt attacks like this don’t belong here. And if you think they do, _you_ don’t belong here. Herman, p.o.’d – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ______  Jim you’re welcome to slap him silly when he does become abusive.  His kind of nonsense has to stop.  It is not good for ROFF as he baits the other bottom dwellers when he behaves like this, using his daughter as an excuse to do so, behind the scenes.  He thinks he has rights!  Let’s not buy his personal problems as that excuse to behave badly here.  So far, I dread the first day he showed up here.  I wish he would just go away or get counciling at the University.  He has NOT made this news group any better after all his New Year wishes to everyone. Pathetic.  Truly pathetic and the soon everyone helps stop this kind of conduct will ROFF have a chance of becoming a pleasant place again. We will talk more about it tonight because ROFF has been a regular conversation at the chat site lately. George Gehrke — http://www.gink.com/chat

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Question:

Hello Ken, I kinda expected that I would get some mail from an asshole like you. I appreciate the fact that you stepped forward to accept the blame that was anticipated from your weak end of the gene pool. Too bad you didn’t want to share that with everyone else who might know you. Well, I have taken care of that for you  by posting your email to me. Now that I have expressed my displeasure with an ignorant person like you it should be known that I have had no similar difficulties with fly fishing, for what reason I do not know and that is why I posted here. I have fly fished most of the well kinown places in the state and have never experienced the like of you, Perhaps you are one of the bait casters that inhabit Tippy Dam or some other aluminum hatch place of origin as that. I really thank you for stepping forward to help others stereotype the great sport of fly fishing  that I have enjoyed for many , many years Most fly fishermen have been gracious in sharing their resources once they found that I was sincere. They didn’t do much of this sport in Georgia either but I was exposed to it and spent considerable money and time learning how to master it like a native Michigander. ! I was taught to tie flies by Charlie Fogel, a tier of over fifty years who I chanced to meet. Old Charlie only asked that I do what I asked others in my original post. He said he would teach me to tie if I only promised to share this gift with others. I have done this many times over. This is just the same promise I have made to others in asking to hunt with them. Perhaps you are special in that you grew up here. You seem very proud of yourself but I am not in anyway a loser. Actually you seem like that sort of person to me. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that you have never served your country and that you’d likely shit your pants if you ever met someone like me face to face alone in the woods! Next time be a man and put your liberal democratic words where everyone else can experience them instead of hide them in shame and embaresment. Clay I apologize to each of you offended by my response. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —–Original Message—– Ken Fortenberry Sent: Saturday, September 25, 1999 1:53 PM The first thing I must say is that I am somewhat sad and a little embarrassed to write something like this. … Well, no shit. You’ve been living in Michigan for 14 years and the people that know you best refuse to share their hunting grounds with you so you post an off-topic whine to a flyfishing newsgroup full of complete strangers. What a lame excuse for a loser. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Hello Ken, I kinda expected that I would get some mail from an asshole like yo

Diatribe snipped OK, let me get this straight…. you post a whiny *off topic*, lengthy, "nobody loves me, everybody hates me, I’m gonna go eat worms" type of post to a group of strangers. A valued regular contributor flames you privately via email. You decide to go public with your reply. #1. If you have lived in Michigan for 14 years and haven’t figured out where to hunt by now, I wouldn’t consider you as a hunting companion. (as apparently your acquaintances in MI also feel) #2. Ken Fotenberry is no one you want to f**k with, as you will likely find out shortly. #3. Please go back to lurking…life was much more pleasant then. George Adams

Response:

Saturday Night Live is holding a 25 year reunion this Sunday at first time you heard, "Jane you ignorant slut?" This is the first time I have laughed that had since, and I know it’s the first good laugh I have had in three years……I just want to thank

Response:

Ken, I have to admire your convictions, but you are one shitty diplomat. Oh, don’t I know it. I blame it on my education. I was taught by the Benedictines and all the good diplomats are Jesuits. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

        forty, the only thing you and the jesuits have in common is a mindset which has its logical conclusion in activities such as the spanish inquisition.         wayno the candid

Response:

        forty, the only thing you and the jesuits have in common is a mindset which has its logical conclusion in activities such as the spanish inquisition.         wayno the candid

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is suprise… surprise and fear…fear and surprise…. Our two weapons are fear and surprise…and ruthless efficiency…. Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise and ruthless efficiency…and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope…. Our *four*… no… *Amongst* our weapons…. Amongst our weaponry…are such elements as fear, surprise…. I’ll come in again. Anyway, was never much fond of the Jesuits, they’re smart enough but mostly quibblers, dissemblers & nit pickers. They make great lawyers. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

Response:

I should also add that I did anticipate this but not from this group of educated and responsible people.

If you anticipated it, then what’s your bitch? This is a fishing newsgroup, not rec.hunting. And it’s hard to take seriously a man who purports to have lived in one place for over a decade and still can’t get permission to hunt somewhere. "Denver, Colorado, may be the best argument for above- ground nuclear testing that I’ve ever seen" -me.

Response:

My first response from this newsgroup to my heartfelt request to each of you in my outdoors world. I will reply to this individual publicly as soon as I finish climbing down from my great room ceiling. I should also add that I did anticipate this but not from this group of educated and responsible people. Sincerely embarrassed by this person, Ranger Clay The first thing I must say is that I am somewhat sad and a little embarrassed to write something like this. …

Well, no shit. You’ve been living in Michigan for 14 years and the people that know you best refuse to share their hunting grounds with you so you post an off-topic whine to a flyfishing newsgroup full of complete strangers. What a lame excuse for a loser. — Ken Fortenberry —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To my fellow sportsmen, The first thing I must say is that I am somewhat sad and a little embarrassed to write something like this. Three years or so ago I considered something like this but did not have the courage to do it then. I don’t know why. Since the time I first considered an approach like this, many things have changed. The person who gave me the greatest gift of my life, the spirit of the hunter, has now passed away and another hunting season is upon me. My father succumbed to cancer last January. He was a man who loved the outdoors and spent every chance he had there. He taught me to hunt and fish and only asked me to pass this heritage on to my children so that it would not be lost. He taught all of his children the skills of survival and how to hunt and fish. He even owned a gun store in Georgia that my brother still manages today. Before I continue, I must tell you something about myself so that perhaps you will know that I am sincere in my request to my fellow outdoorsmen. I am an avid outdoorsman. I grew up in South Georgia during the sixties. My Daddy gave me my first rifle when I was five and my first shotgun when I was eight years old. While this may seem young to some, it was not uncommon during this era. Even before I could read well, I was taught how to handle a weapon safely. That old Browning Automatic Shotgun knocked my glasses and my hat off every time I shot it, my Daddy only gave me one shell at a time, but I didn’t care since I was taught that only one shell was needed, I rarely missed. I loved the outdoors and I would stalk a bird or deer for hours for that one clear, sure shot. He never allowed me to hunt squirrels or rabbits with nothing other than my .22 rifle. While I sometimes disagreed with his methods, this would become very important in my future life as it taught me the skills of an expert marksman. I spent the early years of my life learning about nature and how to hunt and fish. One day I told my Dad that I was ready to be a "man" and what would I have to do to prove this. He said that I had to spend a week in the "Grand Bay Swamp" near where we lived with only a knife and some matches to prove I was ready! Well, I did it at age fourteen. I almost starved (at least in my young mind) but he never said he knew about that! I decided that the out-of-doors was my calling and I made my life’s goal to be a soldier in the Army like my Dad had been.  I enlisted when I was 17, just after high school, and went to many Army schools. I was Infantry, Airborne, a long-range recon scout and I even graduated from the coveted sniper school at Fort Benning. I have never fired less than expert on any military weapon system and I have also competed on military pistol and rifle teams during the seventies and eighties. I learned to hunt man, the greatest game of all and became competent at hitting the silhouettes out to over 1000 yards. I taught marksman ship skills to many young soldiers. During my military days, I usually spent nine months out of the year in th e woods doing my duty to my country. I was very fortunate to have never spent a minute in combat; those who have been there understand my relief at never having to kill another human being. While I eventually became disillusioned with the military due to the liberal democratic politics of the eighties and the fear of death or dismemberment in the Middle East, I loved my skills and I still maintain them today. I married a wonderful woman from Michigan in 1985 and moved there to begin my career as a Controls Engineer. I currently am the Senior Plant Engineer at a General Motors Plant in Flint. I program robots and the automation that manufactures the Chevy and GMC trucks that many of you use to carry you to the great outdoors. When I moved to Michigan, I left my hometown where I had hunting privileges all over the county. As a boy and a young man, I knew many of the farmers and landowners that knew I was a true sportsman and would use their land respectably. They always let me hunt their land and I always shared my bounty with them when they wanted it. When I moved to Michigan, I knew virtually no one and I was forced to spend my fall days hunting on state land that was over hunted and full of novice hunters. For years, I have tolerated this. I knew that the city people were lazy and that when the first gun was fired, all of the game would head to the swamps and hard to access locations. I used my field skills to identify these spots and I would spend hours walking to the remote locations where the smart game would go and hide. While I have been moderately successful over the past years with this plan, I now find my time is short and my son is of the age that it is time he learn how to hunt and safely enjoy the world we have been given without the hassle of long walks into the woods on his young, short legs. I am writing this to those of you who have taken the time to read this monologue up to this point and sympathize with my frustration. I know that accessible hunting land does exist in Michigan. My coworkers successfully hunt these lands and when I have hinted (and even come out and asked) of my desires and abilities, they selfishly guard them like they own them and never ask me to experience them with them. I want to hunt and share this experience with my children. This request is without shame or embarrassment. Do not do this because I mentioned my fathers death, but for my son’s future. I am asking that anyone with a sizable hunting property in the lower at (810) 236-1172 and tell me that you are willing to share our resources with my family and me. I am a responsible sportsman with many years of experience and commitment to our natural resources. I have been a member of the Michigan United Conservation Club since the middle eighties. I am a safe hunter and intend for my family to be as well. I would love to share my skills learned as a young man and as a professional soldier with anyone willing to give me a chance. I can still fire a shotgun or rifle with the accuracy many people dream of. When I go to the skeet range, I still keep the shotgun lowered and I face away from the trap to give the "clays" a sporting chance until I hear the trap release, hunters and shooters of many, many years ask me how I do this and I really don’t know. I can’t even explain this to my wife of fourteen years who loves to hunt as much as I do! I can shoot and I can teach others this skill and I would be willing to trade this service for the privilege of hunting with them. I love hunting small and large game with rifle, shotgun and archery. I am willing to share my bounty with the landowner and all I am respectably asking of you is to give me the opportunity to share this with my family so that it will not be forgotten to the future generations. With sincere thanks, Clay Copeland — —

Response:

To my fellow sportsmen, The first thing I must say is that I am somewhat sad and a little embarrassed to write something like this. Three years or so ago I considered something like this but did not have the courage to do it then. I don’t know why. Since the time I first considered an approach like this, many things have changed. The person who gave me the greatest gift of my life, the spirit of the hunter, has now passed away and another hunting season is upon me. My father succumbed to cancer last January. He was a man who loved the outdoors and spent every chance he had there. He taught me to hunt and fish and only asked me to pass this heritage on to my children so that it would not be lost. He taught all of his children the skills of survival and how to hunt and fish. He even owned a gun store in Georgia that my brother still manages today. Before I continue, I must tell you something about myself so that perhaps you will know that I am sincere in my request to my fellow outdoorsmen. I am an avid outdoorsman. I grew up in South Georgia during the sixties. My Daddy gave me my first rifle when I was five and my first shotgun when I was eight years old. While this may seem young to some, it was not uncommon during this era. Even before I could read well, I was taught how to handle a weapon safely. That old Browning Automatic Shotgun knocked my glasses and my hat off every time I shot it, my Daddy only gave me one shell at a time, but I didn’t care since I was taught that only one shell was needed, I rarely missed. I loved the outdoors and I would stalk a bird or deer for hours for that one clear, sure shot. He never allowed me to hunt squirrels or rabbits with nothing other than my .22 rifle. While I sometimes disagreed with his methods, this would become very important in my future life as it taught me the skills of an expert marksman. I spent the early years of my life learning about nature and how to hunt and fish. One day I told my Dad that I was ready to be a "man" and what would I have to do to prove this. He said that I had to spend a week in the "Grand Bay Swamp" near where we lived with only a knife and some matches to prove I was ready! Well, I did it at age fourteen. I almost starved (at least in my young mind) but he never said he knew about that! I decided that the out-of-doors was my calling and I made my life’s goal to be a soldier in the Army like my Dad had been.  I enlisted when I was 17, just after high school, and went to many Army schools. I was Infantry, Airborne, a long-range recon scout and I even graduated from the coveted sniper school at Fort Benning. I have never fired less than expert on any military weapon system and I have also competed on military pistol and rifle teams during the seventies and eighties. I learned to hunt man, the greatest game of all and became competent at hitting the silhouettes out to over 1000 yards. I taught marksman ship skills to many young soldiers. During my military days, I usually spent nine months out of the year in the woods doing my duty to my country. I was very fortunate to have never spent a minute in combat; those who have been there understand my relief at never having to kill another human being. While I eventually became disillusioned with the military due to the liberal democratic politics of the eighties and the fear of death or dismemberment in the Middle East, I loved my skills and I still maintain them today. I married a wonderful woman from Michigan in 1985 and moved there to begin my career as a Controls Engineer. I currently am the Senior Plant Engineer at a General Motors Plant in Flint. I program robots and the automation that manufactures the Chevy and GMC trucks that many of you use to carry you to the great outdoors. When I moved to Michigan, I left my hometown where I had hunting privileges all over the county. As a boy and a young man, I knew many of the farmers and landowners that knew I was a true sportsman and would use their land respectably. They always let me hunt their land and I always shared my bounty with them when they wanted it. When I moved to Michigan, I knew virtually no one and I was forced to spend my fall days hunting on state land that was over hunted and full of novice hunters. For years, I have tolerated this. I knew that the city people were lazy and that when the first gun was fired, all of the game would head to the swamps and hard to access locations. I used my field skills to identify these spots and I would spend hours walking to the remote locations where the smart game would go and hide. While I have been moderately successful over the past years with this plan, I now find my time is short and my son is of the age that it is time he learn how to hunt and safely enjoy the world we have been given without the hassle of long walks into the woods on his young, short legs. I am writing this to those of you who have taken the time to read this monologue up to this point and sympathize with my frustration. I know that accessible hunting land does exist in Michigan. My coworkers successfully hunt these lands and when I have hinted (and even come out and asked) of my desires and abilities, they selfishly guard them like they own them and never ask me to experience them with them. I want to hunt and share this experience with my children. This request is without shame or embarrassment. Do not do this because I mentioned my fathers death, but for my son’s future. I am asking that anyone with a sizable hunting property in the lower (810) 236-1172 and tell me that you are willing to share our resources with my family and me. I am a responsible sportsman with many years of experience and commitment to our natural resources. I have been a member of the Michigan United Conservation Club since the middle eighties. I am a safe hunter and intend for my family to be as well. I would love to share my skills learned as a young man and as a professional soldier with anyone willing to give me a chance. I can still fire a shotgun or rifle with the accuracy many people dream of. When I go to the skeet range, I still keep the shotgun lowered and I face away from the trap to give the "clays" a sporting chance until I hear the trap release, hunters and shooters of many, many years ask me how I do this and I really don’t know. I can’t even explain this to my wife of fourteen years who loves to hunt as much as I do! I can shoot and I can teach others this skill and I would be willing to trade this service for the privilege of hunting with them. I love hunting small and large game with rifle, shotgun and archery. I am willing to share my bounty with the landowner and all I am respectably asking of you is to give me the opportunity to share this with my family so that it will not be forgotten to the future generations. With sincere thanks, Clay Copeland — —

Response:

Question:

Stop the line while the fly is still in the air and let it drop to the surface.

Response:

Pauls idea is right on. I sometimes slam the water and I correct it by casting to an imaginary point above the water. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been in a little funk casting lately, it seems my fly has been skipping the water and I can’t seem to correct it. I have been fly fishing for about 5 years now. Any suggestions? I’m all ears…

Response:

I have been in a little funk casting lately, it seems my fly has been skipping the water and I can’t seem to correct it. I have been fly fishing for about 5 years now. Any suggestions? I’m all ears…

Hit trooch, As Paul said you need to stop your rod high enough in the air that the line straghtens out in the air and then falls to the water.  Ideally you want the entire line to land on the water first (presuming you are fishing drys) and then have your fly flutter down softly afterwards.  This distributes the weight of the line over the largest amount of water and allows a nice delicate presentation.   One of the things that people often do that causes them to slam flies down on the water, is  to either cast using mostly wrist with their arm extended in front of them, or to cast with their elbow pulled back slightly behind their back.  If you are doing the first, pull your elbow back in and let it just hang at your side and then use more forearm in your stroke when you’re casting.  If you find your elbow is back behind you, push it forward slightly and let it just hang at your side comfortably centered when you’re casting.  This should get your rod tip to travel in a fairly parrallel path to the water and allow your line to straighten out before your fly hits.  Give it a try.                              Hope this helps,                                       Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

Response:

I have been in a little funk casting lately, it seems my fly has been skipping the water and I can’t seem to correct it. I have been fly fishing for about 5 years now. Any suggestions? I’m all ears…

Response:

Question:

Heading for the Salmon River next week. Any info on the fishing would be appreciated. Thanks Mike

Response:

Mike writes: Heading for the Salmon River next week. Any info on the fishing would be appreciated. Thanks Mike

I can’t speak for all the Salmon Rivers of the world, but the one in New York is covered by a call to 315-298-2993 to either Dave Patrick or Malinda Barna who also keep as update under the FFBN AOL fishing conditions section.   They run the excellent Altmar Smokehouse fly shop right on the river.   Also Bill Fling keeps an excellent page updated at http://www.salmon-river.com Was there 2-4 May and had poor water (Very high) conditions, but with a few steelies produced on flies after a great deal of very hard work.   Am returning next week.  The fish are clearly in the water and nice fish too… But with 2000 cfs flowing were scattered badly and very difficult to get close to or find.   Corkers are highly recommended as is a good wading staff.  Small nymphs and small bright, Eztaz type flies on 5 pound long tippets … Water may be high but is exceedingly clear.  Tightlines, Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*

Response:

Mike writes:

Water on the Salmon River has been high 1700 cfs or better. Fish have been difficult but some have been taken. Four fish were taken at DSR yesterday. I’d try big, egg imitations and others in bright colors. We do have a minor stonefly hatch on currently. Bill — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

Response:

Anyone have anything good or bad to say about the Orvis DXR anti-reverse reels??

Response:

Question:

Previous posts on breathable waders have mentioned their durability and some problems that have developed. I wondered if there was more personal experience out there on this topic. How durable have the different breathable wader brands been in your experience (Simms microfibers, Hodgmann wadelite, LL Bean Gore-Tex, Orvis Gore-Tex and any others you know of)?

Response:

Previous posts on breathable waders have mentioned their durability and some problems that have developed. I wondered if there was more personal experience out there on this topic. How durable have the different breathable wader brands been in your experience (Simms microfibers, Hodgmann wadelite, LL Bean Gore-Tex, Orvis Gore-Tex and any others you know of)?

Hi Jonathan, I guided 83 trips and several personal trips as well in my Simms and they worked very well. I developed one pin hole leak after charging through some wild roses but the leak was very easy to repair. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

Question:

    On the 19th of this month we will be taking a trip to the Green River in Utah.  If anyone’s been there recently could you tell me what the hatches have been like and what times.  Also any other suggestions that might help us out.  THANKS                           Fryman P.S.  Would someone give me a good definition of what a yuppie is, and        why does everyone talk about them.  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Path: news.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!usenet.ee.pdx.edu!cs.uoregon.edu!reuter.cse .ogi.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ne ws.cs.utah.edu!news.provo.novell.com!nntp.et.byu.edu!news.byu.edu!news Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: Brigham Young University, Provo UT USA Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: pc18.et.byu.edu    On the 19th of this month we will be taking a trip to the Green River in Utah.  If anyone’s been there recently could you tell me what the hatches have been like and what times.  Also any other suggestions that might help us out.  THANKS                          Fryman P.S.  Would someone give me a good definition of what a yuppie is, and       why does everyone talk about them.  

I was just at the Green in late March.  It’s funny but all the hatch charts I found made it look like the BWO’s would be out in March.  When I got there (with a healthy selection of my favorite BWO ties) all the locals told me, "yeah, the charts are wrong…"  they all claimed that the BWO’s should be out in mid April.  So…   According to Larry Tullis (hatch chart in RIVER JOURNAL: GREEN RIVER) April shoud have: midges, BWO, Scuds, Redworms, Eggs, Minnows Leeches, & Crane flies.  For the midges I’d focus on Griffiths Gnats (20-24), and Brassies (18-20), and WD-40’s (20-22, local tie) – oh yeah, your magnifier…  The midges were good to me – numerous 16"-20" fish on 20 Griffiths.   anthony  

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