Question:

Actually, flyrods are more since that was quoted correctly.  Secondary part costs have increased dramatically since the Clinton defascoes and Greenspan screw ups with the economy.

So until you give me a new figure let’s work with a  100% increase on costs over the past four years (although I can’t beleive it should be this high). That still implies a helathy profit of several 100%. You have not used the correct price at all.  Most of the fly rods are around $500 – $700.  

Check your own website. I clearly stated I was using the MSRP which is quoted at $1620 to $3000. This is the price you expect a retailer to charge for your rods. or did you post a hugely inflated MSRP in order to make your rods appear to be worth more tahn they really are. Surely that would be unethical… George Gehrke "bamboosan" http://www.gink.com George Gehrke "lowest priced bamboo fly rods regardless"

And this is wrong too. Your MSRPs for your product line rods are higher (and in some cases considerably higher) than the price of most handmade rods which, as you have admitted yourself in the past, have higher quality.

Response:

The Cortland "444 Clear Camo" is the most popular here in California, USA, planet earth.

For those in the know (such as my cat) the inter-galactic postal service now requires both "Galaxy" AND "ZIP + AZ + RA" for speedy delivery… K

Response:

  Where the fuck are those guys in white coats when you need them? Playing Poker over at Wayne Harrison’s house:  Joker’s Wild? Glad to see you’re not brain dead yet by responding to my troll of vulgarity. My apologies for the civilized language. Mr.G. "back to regular casting"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, flyrods are more since that was quoted correctly.  Secondary  part costs have increased dramatically since the Clinton defascoes and  Greenspan screw ups with the economy. So until you give me a new figure let’s work with a  100% increase on costs over the past four years (although I can’t beleive it should be this high). That still implies a helathy profit of several 100%. You have not used the correct price at all.  Most of the fly rods are  around $500 – $700. Check your own website. I clearly stated I was using the MSRP which is quoted at $1620 to $3000. This is the price you expect a retailer to charge for your rods. or did you post a hugely inflated MSRP in order to make your rods appear to be worth more tahn they really are. Surely that would be unethical… Whoa, right here ass hole.  You don’t know for jack shit the quality of our fly rods.  Admit it!  Where is your source of knowledge derived from?? Other assholes?

You should learn to read and comprehend and control your infamous short-temper. You are supposed to be a mature adult, so why not start acting like one. I did not say your rods are of bad quality. I asked if they were really worth $1600 to $3000, which are prices commanded by top quality, hand made rods, constructed by gentlemen with many years of craftmanship behind them. You have often commneted yourself that your rods are of porduction line quality, and, while they may or may not be the best production line rods in the world, I find it hard to believe they are of the same quality level as the handmade rods, and therefore worth an equivalent amount. So, I ask you, would you put your rod with a MSRP of $3000 (note, I said MSRP, not "special online price") up against a hand-made rod charged at $3000? Would you gurantee your rod to be of the same quality and standard as that handmade rod? I’ll tell you what.  I dare you, if you wish to see a beautiful bamboo to order one and in your case you will pay in advance for a Bastard for a bastard.  I will defy you to  be able to find fault with it compared to any other bamboo fly rod in the world. Okay, you chicken shit son of a bitch.  What say you? George Gehrke bamboosan

I have no wish whatsoever to do business with a man who uses such language and shows such obvious contempt for his "customers". I am very choosy about who I give my money to. Sorry.

Response:

Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here…

Is there money to be made smuggling Albolene to NZ? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Clark

You can always order factory direct as ours don’t sell for that there Clark. Even the cost of postage would be cheaper than what it takes you to drive to the store. Your Pal, George

Response:

Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Clark

Um, isn’t that about 8.00USD?  Granted, more expensive than in the US, but considering the costs involved versus the market, that doesn’t, on the face of it, sound so outrageous.  Of course, if it’s Ginkle’s Gunk, I can see the basis for your confusion… TC, R

Response:

Rusty?  I did an extensive article with drawings on how fly lines are made. The engineering has been paid for long ago and that deals with line tapers mainly.  What does change are coatings and finishes.  That is all. The process is so simple as to boggle the mind and the cost of making a fly line is indeed one of the lowest in American Manufacturing in the industry. This is why one can readily appreciate HOW a company like Cortland can afford full page ads in magazines.  The profit margin is so vast as to be literally obnoxious and unfair.  Just like Frog Butt, the fly fishermen of America are NOT getting a square or honest deal when it comes to fly lines. No joke.  Fly lines from all the manufacturers are over priced.  I mean, WAY over priced! Consider this.  A Cortland 333 or 444 could be bought in Wal-Mart here in Lewiston Idaho just a week ago and  for several years for the low, Low, LOW price of only $11.57.  Would you like to hear the rest of the story? The new (and I wonder about this term as a hype bite) 555 Cortland costs no more to make than any other Cortland Fly Line.  If they cost more, okay; I’ll let you increase that factor about what this article is worth.  How about .02 Cents? George Gehrke Each of these fly lines all cast the same, believe it or not.  It’s nothing to get excited about.  Fly lines are expendable and as far as I’m concerned, the 555 should sell for LESS THAN Twenty dollars per line. You know everyone?  I keep saying this time and time again.  The packaging costs more than what it takes to make a fly line and the labor required is not much at all, but for some odd reason this fact just doesn’t soak in. Fly line companies need to be boycotted if you want to get them back into the honesty game, like it or not.  Thing is, it’s all I mainly fish with is Cortland Fly Lines but I use only the fairly priced ones and always will. George Gehrke "Inside Trade Secrets"

Response:

Yep! Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Is there money to be made smuggling Albolene to NZ? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Yep basically but my point was, even at $8.00 US, for what it is some people just are not in a position to be bitching about how Cortland prices its lines, apart from the obvious factors already pointed out about the engineering and development and manufacture of new lines. Cortland didn’t just find a material used to keep ladies knickers up and repackage it as an expensive fly line. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Clark Um, isn’t that about 8.00USD?  Granted, more expensive than in the US, but considering the costs involved versus the market, that doesn’t, on the face of it, sound so outrageous.  Of course, if it’s Ginkle’s Gunk, I can see the basis for your confusion… TC, R

Response:

Yep basically but my point was, even at $8.00 US, for what it is some people just are not in a position to be bitching about how Cortland prices its lines, apart from the obvious factors already pointed out about the engineering and development and manufacture of new lines. Cortland didn’t just find a material used to keep ladies knickers up and repackage it as an expensive fly line.

My article on how easy it is to put some PVC plastic on a string apart from engineering which has been done years ago and paid for ten thousand times over, machinery that hasn’t changed in fifty years in making the web core and the automated ejection dies that cost a dime a dozen, is long ago paid for. It is just the change of plastic advances.  Cortland or S.Anglers all buy the plastics by the thousand pound box lots and it’s cheap.  The cost of the plastic coating the fly line you’re using today is about a 1/20th of a cent worth, if that. I know what a fair price for a fly line is and you don’t Clark.  I’m telling you that you can make it sound extravagant but it isn’t.  The art work on a fly line box is more extravagant than the line, believe that.  My point is simple.  Fly lines are over priced. George Gehrke The exchange rate where you are is indeed just numbers.  You have the same buying power and that is not America’s fault now, is it?  How much money is good wages per hour there?  A hundred dollars an hour or three dollars an hour?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rusty?  I did an extensive article with drawings on how fly lines are made. The engineering has been paid for long ago and that deals with line tapers mainly.  What does change are coatings and finishes.  That is all. The process is so simple as to boggle the mind and the cost of making a fly line is indeed one of the lowest in American Manufacturing in the industry. This is why one can readily appreciate HOW a company like Cortland can afford full page ads in magazines.  The profit margin is so vast as to be literally obnoxious and unfair.  Just like Frog Butt, the fly fishermen of America are NOT getting a square or honest deal when it comes to fly lines. No joke.  Fly lines from all the manufacturers are over priced.  I mean, WAY over priced! Consider this.  A Cortland 333 or 444 could be bought in Wal-Mart here in Lewiston Idaho just a week ago and  for several years for the low, Low, LOW price of only $11.57.  Would you like to hear the rest of the story? The new (and I wonder about this term as a hype bite) 555 Cortland costs no more to make than any other Cortland Fly Line.  If they cost more, okay; I’ll let you increase that factor about what this article is worth.  How about .02 Cents? George Gehrke Each of these fly lines all cast the same, believe it or not.  It’s nothing to get excited about.  Fly lines are expendable and as far as I’m concerned, the 555 should sell for LESS THAN Twenty dollars per line. You know everyone?  I keep saying this time and time again.  The packaging costs more than what it takes to make a fly line and the labor required is not much at all, but for some odd reason this fact just doesn’t soak in. Fly line companies need to be boycotted if you want to get them back into the honesty game, like it or not.  Thing is, it’s all I mainly fish with is Cortland Fly Lines but I use only the fairly priced ones and always will. George Gehrke "Inside Trade Secrets"

"I assure everyone here, you can build the finest bamboo fly rod in the world for less then $50 – $65 dollars. " George Gehrke, 31 December 1998 Quoted _retail price_ on www.gink.com  = $1620 Profit = 1620 – 80  = $1540  (allowing for some inflation!) % Profit = almost 2000 %.  That’s quite some markup! Note: This is not the "special offer if you buy via the internet price", but the manufacturer’s suggested retail price for a Blonde model. If you want a Black Raven at MDRP of $3000, the markup is closer to 3650 %. It is up to the reader to decide whether these are the "finest bamboo" in the world. What should we think about such high markups? "The more commercial you become the lower the manufacturing costs UP to a CERTAIN point. Then things average out to around $49.95 each. THAT rod is now being sold for $2500! Which is such a con job as to require all of us to march upon Orvis and other Overpricing Fly Rod Manufacturers who are "Over-Charging" and we should slap them silly. " George Gehrke,  31 December 1998 What can we do but agree with this sage advice. The line forms on my right…

Response:

"Rapscallion"   YOU!  You chickenshit sonofabitch, who doesn’t have the balls to present your own real name dares to challenge me, the God and Ruler of Roff?  I’m George Gehrke, the one and only.  Who are you.  Nothing? George Gehrke "a somebody" And proud of it.

Where the fuck are those guys in white coats when you need them?

Response:

"Rapscallion"   YOU!  You chickenshit sonofabitch, who doesn’t have the balls to present your own real name dares to challenge me, the God and Ruler of Roff?  I’m George Gehrke, the one and only.  Who are you.  Nothing? George Gehrke "a somebody" And proud of it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, flyrods are more since that was quoted correctly.  Secondary part costs have increased dramatically since the Clinton defascoes and Greenspan screw ups with the economy. So until you give me a new figure let’s work with a  100% increase on costs over the past four years (although I can’t beleive it should be this high). That still implies a helathy profit of several 100%. You have not used the correct price at all.  Most of the fly rods are around $500 – $700. Check your own website. I clearly stated I was using the MSRP which is quoted at $1620 to $3000. This is the price you expect a retailer to charge for your rods. or did you post a hugely inflated MSRP in order to make your rods appear to be worth more tahn they really are. Surely that would be unethical…

Whoa, right here ass hole.  You don’t know for jack shit the quality of our fly rods.  Admit it!  Where is your source of knowledge derived from?? Other assholes? I’ll tell you what.  I dare you, if you wish to see a beautiful bamboo to order one and in your case you will pay in advance for a Bastard for a bastard.  I will defy you to  be able to find fault with it compared to any other bamboo fly rod in the world. Okay, you chicken shit son of a bitch.  What say you? George Gehrke bamboosan

Response:

For just about any manufactured goods, the cost of raw materials is minor compared to the costs incurred in research and development, manufacture, distribution, and promotion. Basing the "fair price" of a flyline on the cost of bulk PVC is about the same as saying that split-cane flyrods shouldn’t cost any more than 20 or 30 dollars because they are made of little more than bamboo, cork, steel, and nickel. Besides that, there is currently enough competition in the fly line market that I seriously doubt that an artificially high price would last for very long.

This is very true, but misleading and not entirely correct.  The general rule of thumb that I have found is that wholesale is roughly half of retail and wholesale is over two times the cost of production.  You are basically paying for the manufacturer to make a profit and then the retailer to make a profit.  My friend was signed up with several business that had guide programs and I got to see some of the price sheets for Orvis and others.  What was costing me $5 (brass beads), he was getting for $1.50 or so.  If you knew the mark up on stuff like hackle, fly rods, etc you would shit your pants, which wouldn’t be a problem if you were paying wholesale because you could afford a pair just to crap in.  The glasses I wanted that were $150, he could get for $45.  Unlike other industries, the mark ups on fly fishing gear is huge.  Those that are able to afford it do so.  Those that can’t afford it but still want it sacrifice and buy it anyways.  Those that can’t afford it buy something that is a good substitute but within their price range.  I think the fly fishing industry has basically nickled and dimed us over the years to find the upper limits of what we are willing to pay as consumers and have been very effective at doing so.  The few manufacturers that start off at discounted prices eventually join up with the rest and start charging the same as everyone else.  Look at rod prices for instance. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

Actually, flyrods are more since that was quoted correctly.  Secondary part costs have increased dramatically since the Clinton defascoes and Greenspan screw ups with the economy. You have not used the correct price at all.  Most of the fly rods are around $500 – $700.  Just the ferrules which are all American Made  usually are nearly $200 worth.  That is not my idea of fair pricing either.  Then there are the Agate Guides, snake guides, reel seat, cork, labor. No, we don’t over charge but you sure do know how to blue sky and put things out of context.  As a Roffian, you fit right in. George Gehrke "bamboosan" http://www.gink.com George Gehrke "lowest priced bamboo fly rods regardless"

Response:

I know what a fair price for a fly line is and you don’t Clark.  I’m telling you that you can make it sound extravagant but it isn’t.  The art work on a fly line box is more extravagant than the line, believe that.  My point is simple.  Fly lines are over priced.

For just about any manufactured goods, the cost of raw materials is minor compared to the costs incurred in research and development, manufacture, distribution, and promotion. Basing the "fair price" of a flyline on the cost of bulk PVC is about the same as saying that split-cane flyrods shouldn’t cost any more than 20 or 30 dollars because they are made of little more than bamboo, cork, steel, and nickel. Besides that, there is currently enough competition in the fly line market that I seriously doubt that an artificially high price would last for very long. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know what a fair price for a fly line is and you don’t Clark.  I’m telling you that you can make it sound extravagant but it isn’t.  The art work on a fly line box is more extravagant than the line, believe that.  My point is simple.  Fly lines are over priced. For just about any manufactured goods, the cost of raw materials is minor compared to the costs incurred in research and development, manufacture, distribution, and promotion. Basing the "fair price" of a flyline on the cost of bulk PVC is about the same as saying that split-cane flyrods shouldn’t cost any more than 20 or 30 dollars because they are made of little more than bamboo, cork, steel, and nickel. Besides that, there is currently enough competition in the fly line market that I seriously doubt that an artificially high price would last for very long. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

You make a compelling point and I bow to it. George

Response:

Any opinions on the best full sinking line for stillwater applications? steve haun sioux falls

Response:

Any opinions on the best full sinking line for stillwater applications?

Depends what you require of it. We do a lot of reservoir fishing from boats here in the U.K. We use everything from neutral density (barely breaks through the surface) through to some fairly scary high density fly lines (e.g. Airflo DI7 and DI8). Note that these last named are proper casting tapers, not just lengths of lead core trolling line. If I were to pick only one sinking line, I’d probably choose a 3M Scientific Anglers WetCel 1 intermediate – popularly known here by its colour: the ‘Kelly Green’. It’s a nice line to cast and generally useful. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill?  I went to my favorite or nearest Fly Shop and looked at the Cortland 555 and for $60 Cortland isn’t offering much for something that only cost them .87 Cents to make.  Hell, the packaging cost more! I just wish there was more honesty in fly line pricing than what is taking place in America today.  These fly lines should not be retailing for any more than about $15 each and this is the truth… The 555 is a new line, and the people who developed it, advertise it, distribute it, etc, all need to get paid. If they sold for only $15, the engineers (and others) currently in the flyfishing industry would move on to greener pastures, or the companies would go out of business. Maybe both. With the kind of fishing I do, and the kind of budget I’m currently living with, the budget lines made by Cortland and SA suit me just fine. OTOH, it’s nice to know that they (and others) are constantly innovating. There is a price to pay for having the newest, slickest line, but judging by the sales of high-end fly tackle, there are plenty of customers who are willing to pay for it, just as there are plenty of others who are willing to stay with the older-generation lines in order to save money for other things. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

Bill?  I went to my favorite or nearest Fly Shop and looked at the Cortland 555 and for $60 Cortland isn’t offering much for something that only cost them .87 Cents to make.  Hell, the packaging cost more! I just wish there was more honesty in fly line pricing than what is taking place in America today.  These fly lines should not be retailing for any more than about $15 each and this is the truth…

The 555 is a new line, and the people who developed it, advertise it, distribute it, etc, all need to get paid. If they sold for only $15, the engineers (and others) currently in the flyfishing industry would move on to greener pastures, or the companies would go out of business. Maybe both. With the kind of fishing I do, and the kind of budget I’m currently living with, the budget lines made by Cortland and SA suit me just fine. OTOH, it’s nice to know that they (and others) are constantly innovating. There is a price to pay for having the newest, slickest line, but judging by the sales of high-end fly tackle, there are plenty of customers who are willing to pay for it, just as there are plenty of others who are willing to stay with the older-generation lines in order to save money for other things. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

Hi Steve, We sell most the full sinking weight forward slow sinking clear lines for a lakes. The Cortland "444 Clear Camo" is the most popular here in California, USA, planet earth. Years ago the WF6S type 2,  SA or Cortland was the most popular lake line. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any opinions on the best full sinking line for stillwater applications? steve haun sioux falls

Response:

Bill?  I went to my favorite or nearest Fly Shop and looked at the Cortland 555 and for $60 Cortland isn’t offering much for something that only cost them .87 Cents to make.  Hell, the packaging cost more! I just wish there was more honesty in fly line pricing than what is taking place in America today.  These fly lines should not be retailing for any more than about $15 each and this is the truth. I walked into Lewiston’s Wal-Mart to buy some Cortland 444 fly lines for about the same low price of around $15 and this store said that Wal-Mart pulled not only the Cortland Fly Lines and ALL Fly Line brands but the leaders.  I no sooner got outside to my electronics center (Pick Up) and called 1-800-Wal-Mart and we had a serious discussion about this issue. Seems their light bulb may have come back on.  We will see. George

Response:

Question:

1. Nothing, I do it all the time. 2. Nothing, if it helps to catch fish…it has worked for me. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED ASST. OLD FART OF ROFF OLD, GRAY, TIRED SWAPMEISTER TIRED OF THIS POLITICAL BULLSHIT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, I hope no one reports me for going OT, but I’ve decided we’ve had enough dilly dallying; it’s time to talk serious politics and try to raise a little debate in this group for once. What’s wrong with fishing downstream? and What’s wrong with fishing a dropper rig with an indicator? Shell away. — "Q: May I ask why this crap is on a flyfishing newsgroup??" "A: This is a flyfishing people newsgroup.  It’s a bunch of people who happen to flyfish talking about various topics that they might talk about while fishing." -Ken Janik (who keeps winding up in my signature files)

Response:

I’m with Frank on this one!  Hell I’ll even cast some bait, if it will catch me a prize winning young (female) divorcee.  Frank’s da man! Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. Nothing, I do it all the time. 2. Nothing, if it helps to catch fish…it has worked for me. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED ASST. OLD FART OF ROFF OLD, GRAY, TIRED SWAPMEISTER TIRED OF THIS POLITICAL BULLSHIT OK, I hope no one reports me for going OT, but I’ve decided we’ve had enough dilly dallying; it’s time to talk serious politics and try to raise a little debate in this group for once. What’s wrong with fishing downstream? and What’s wrong with fishing a dropper rig with an indicator? Shell away. — "Q: May I ask why this crap is on a flyfishing newsgroup??" "A: This is a flyfishing people newsgroup.  It’s a bunch of people who happen to flyfish talking about various topics that they might talk about while fishing." -Ken Janik (who keeps winding up in my signature files)

Response:

I’m with Frank on this one!  Hell I’ll even cast some bait, if it will catch me a prize winning young (female) divorcee.  Frank’s da man!

Just remember, Opie, that the big fish usually don’t bite on small baits… Kevin

Response:

What’s wrong with fishing downstream?  Nothing at all my friend.  I do all the time on my favorite rivers.  The fish don’t seem to mind and I actually get some very entertaining strikes by letting my fly loop downstream and then stripping it down and across as it drags. I will say that there are situations where casting upstream is required to do well but most of the time, walking down the stream works fine. Mike Wilson

Response:

fishing downstream can be particularly effective…try fishing a softhackle normally upstream then letting it tail out behind you as it goes downstream….caught alot of fish this way…kindof simulates and emerging nymph….try it….youll be surprised… roy

Response:

You been peeping into my window at night Kevin? — Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m with Frank on this one!  Hell I’ll even cast some bait, if it will catch me a prize winning young (female) divorcee.  Frank’s da man! Just remember, Opie, that the big fish usually don’t bite on small baits… Kevin

Response:

Question:

All Rounder with many extras. 10 ft.  1 or 2 people.  600 lb capacity.

Response:

 we can pic up a pail of lard for jeff to cook the eggs in,

actually, after careful study of the fly dressing thread, i’m ordering a barrel of albolene…understand it has a thousand uses… jeff

Response:

a thousand and one…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  we can pic up a pail of lard for jeff to cook the eggs in, actually, after careful study of the fly dressing thread, i’m ordering a barrel of albolene…understand it has a thousand uses… jeff

Response:

Mail by several of the members of that group to request that I ask you guys to stay at home. Their group has many fine ladies and gentlemen involved who like to discuss the finer points of technical points of fishing  , cigar smoking, and didigal camera without the necessity of deleting  a bunch of messages fro  a bunch of drunken rowdies planning another meeting in the woods.  I of course replied -something here inside cannot be denied- when smoke gets in your eyes.             We will have plenty of food for the  spring clave, lots of wild weeds to make Ken"s meetless lasanga,  tomatoes will be in season so Dave an juswt drop whole big ones   in his tacos, I sill have a half gallon of Wall Mart special red,  we can pic up a pail of lard for jeff to cook the eggs in, and I know Walt has a couple of jars of spaghetti sauce. God I’m getting as silly as the rest of you jackasses.  Indian Joe3 ied

Response:

Question:

Hi, Is there a good flyfishing spot for trouts, salmon or steelhead near Portland, Oregon?  I will be visiting Portland at the end of October. Thanks in advance. Kang

Response:

Is there a good flyfishing spot for trouts, salmon or steelhead near Portland, Oregon?  I will be visiting Portland at the end of October.

Closest would be the Clackamas and Sandy, both of which run through the metro area. Closest for world class fly fishing would be the North Santiam, about an hour south of PDX

Response:

Hi, Is there a good flyfishing spot for trouts, salmon or steelhead near Portland, Oregon?  I will be visiting Portland at the end of October. Thanks in advance. Kang

Go to the Deschutes river.   You’ll have a chance to catch trout and steelhead.   Check at a couple of the fly shops in Portland.   One other fishery that will be going on is the Tillomook bay/river.  You can go for the BIG chinook in the Trask or Wilson rivers.   There are other rivers on the coast that have this same fall chinook run going on.  When you get into town call Fisherman’s Outdoor at 503-283-8310 or Great American Tackle at 503-650-2662 they can direct you in the right direction. Sharp Hooks, Pat Holdzit Fishing Products Inc. http://www.holdzit.com Before you buy.

Response:

Wow, I surely wouldn’t call the N. Santiam a "world class flyfishing river." I floated it yesterday and saw lots of big October Caddis flys hatching, but nary a rise. My vote would be for the Deschutes/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there a good flyfishing spot for trouts, salmon or steelhead near Portland, Oregon?  I will be visiting Portland at the end of October. Closest would be the Clackamas and Sandy, both of which run through the metro area. Closest for world class fly fishing would be the North Santiam, about an hour south of PDX

Response:

Wow, I surely wouldn’t call the N. Santiam a "world class flyfishing river." I floated it yesterday and saw lots of big October Caddis flys hatching, but nary a rise. My vote would be for the Deschutes/

Guess that just goes to show you…. I floated the section around Mill City/Lyons last weekend. Caught and released well over 30 fish in 4 hours. Waded one bar and caught at least 10 in 20 minutes. Most in the 10"-12" range, a few dinks and one truly huge cut. Maybe the river isn’t the problem….

Response:

Well, good for you! I didn’t have my flyrod along on Sunday, but was keeping a watchful eye for rising fish, and saw none. Guess we have different opinions on what constitutes a "World Class river." I like the N. Santiam, but have never seen it given that kind of status. Also, never have seen it listed in any "top rivers" articles. I didn’t see my experience as a "problem" as I wasn’t fishing. If I was and I heard about your success the prior day, I would readily admit that it was my problem! Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow, I surely wouldn’t call the N. Santiam a "world class flyfishing river." I floated it yesterday and saw lots of big October Caddis flys hatching, but nary a rise. My vote would be for the Deschutes/ Guess that just goes to show you…. I floated the section around Mill City/Lyons last weekend. Caught and released well over 30 fish in 4 hours. Waded one bar and caught at least 10 in 20 minutes. Most in the 10"-12" range, a few dinks and one truly huge cut. Maybe the river isn’t the problem….

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Wow, I surely wouldn’t call the N. Santiam a "world class flyfishing

river." Someone responsed: Caught and released well over 30 fish in 4 hours.

The North Santiam can be excellent for trout and steelhead until they start dumping lots of water out of Detroit Reservoir.  For bank fishers I would rank it behind the Deschutes, but for float fishers, there are some outstanding areas. Thomas Gilg

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Question:

Hello Ken, This is something I’ve been doing quite a bit in the last couple of years. I’m certainly no expert, but here are a few thoughts.. For tackle I recommend a fairly stiff 8 weight rod with a Lamson reel.  You can get away with Pfleuger or a Scientific Angler but they’ll require more care and aren’t as smooth.  Use 20 lb. dacron backing.  Nothing your going to hook is going to run that far.  Even a big red usually stays within 100 yds of where he was hooked so you don’t need Bonefish gear. This rig will handle bass, redfish, speckled trout and the occasional flounder.  You’ll have to deal with wind.  Just the way it goes.  Try the Scientific Anglers Mastery series Wind Cheater line.  Helps a bit.  I also use a slow sinking line a lot and it’s a bit easier to cast into the wind.  I’d go with the Wind Cheater to start with.  Takes some of the edge off of being a beginner. The single most effective lure for me is a chartreuse/white Clouser minnow. Works on Reds and Specks under most circumstances.  Later you can go with some crab patterns for Reds and some Seaducers and Leftys Deceivers for Specks. Don’t discount Crazy Charlies either.. great under the lights for Specks. There are other patterns.. Roadkills, different shrimp imitations, but if you head out with half-a-dozen Clousers and a couple or lighter streamers, you’ll handle most of what you encounter. Is this what you wanted to know? Andy Schreckenghost Houston TX – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to fly fishing and in need of information for fishing in the coastal bend.  For instance reel and rod recommendations.  I hear that the wind is a consideration when fishing in the bay. I would appreciate any information. Thank you, Ken Clay

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I am new to fly fishing and in need of information for fishing in the coastal bend.  For instance reel and rod recommendations.  I hear that the wind is a consideration when fishing in the bay. I would appreciate any information. Thank you, Ken Clay

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Question:

As with anything having to do with this sport, get the best you can afford. Metz, Spencer, and a half-dozen other growers often sell half capes for about the same price as the next grade down. Unless you are tying up to professional prodution a good #2 grade half will last through several seasons. Everyone resents the initial outlay of $$$ for a good cape, but the payoff is you don’t purchase them very often. Cabela’s and other supply houses also sell decent genetic necks that are quite useful, if limited in size and color.

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how bout finding some fishin’ buddies to split some necks with….that how I started out. some times stores will sell you split necks, if you take classes from them…they can always use the other half in class or for production tying. i agree with the other respondent, however, buy the best you can..you’ll be disappointed with the #3’s for drys size 14 and smaller. happy tying,….and DON"T GIVE UP!! there aren’t enuff of us out there! #:)#  Larry Medina

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Hoffman Super Saddle. Tons of real long feathers 10 down to 18 or so. Can tie two or three flies per feather.

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I need some new hackle, I’m getting better at tieing, and the hackle from the kit sucks.  I would like to hear some opinions on which Hackle to buy.   I am leaning towards Metz grade #3 in Grizzly from Orvis (29 bucks), anyone know of a better deal let me know.  Thanks. Scott

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I thought that a grade three hackle would be better for tying wet flies than dry, but I just read an article that said that they rate the hackle by the count of usable feathers, the main size, and length. I thought that a grade 3 hackle would be softer hackle than a grade 1 or 2 is this true or are there just more usable feathers on a grade 1. Can you tye as good a dry with a grade 3 hackle as you could with grade 1.  I am simply a begginer I dont know grade 3 hackles are softer by expierience I just thought that was how it was THANKS! The factors that determine a hackle grade are numerous.  A neck or saddle are graded on the number of usable hackles, length of hackle, color, webbiness, stem diameter and uniformity of barbule lengtht. Now the problem arises when you compare hackles from two different companies.  A #2 Hoffman  may be better than a #1Metz metz.  Will a #3 be "softer"?  Well yes it may have a little, or a lot, more web depending on the company.  A #3 Hoffman will tie a good dry fly, but some of the other companies it may not.   The best thing to do is to inspect it carefully before you buy it.  Generally it can be said that you will get what you pay for. About 7 years ago I bought my first Hoffman saddle and now I am hooked.  I have currently 5 Hoffman saddles and 3 necks.  They are the only ones I use for my dries.  I know they are kinda expensive and I have a tight budget, but they are worth it.  There is nothing more frustrating to me than trying to tie a good fly with a shitty feather.   Good Luck, Marty

Hi Marty, I agree. Hoffman is only company that has saddle hackle that is small and stiff for trout dries. In the old days, we always used rooster saddles for wets and rooster necks for dries. Henry Hoffman changed that. Metz saddles are better for wet flies as they don’t seem to be stiff enough for dries. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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  <big snip   Then Metz started to become available and Henry started to bring over some of his first "super grizzly".  This is one area where materials have only gotten better.

  Amen to that. Several months ago a guy came into the local shop carrying grampa’s tying kit. Grampa must have been a serious tyer, the kit had a lot of really nice stuff (jungle cock cape, etc), the tools and thread were all top quality from that era. The dry fly hackles were a different story altogether; the individual feathers were all tapered, the stems were thick (compared to modern hackle), and none of the feathers would tie smaller than about sz 10. Charlie

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writes: Amen to that. Several months ago a guy came into the local shop carrying grampa’s tying kit. Grampa must have been a serious tyer, the kit had a lot of really nice stuff (jungle cock cape, etc), the tools and thread were all top quality from that era. The dry fly hackles were a different story altogether; the individual feathers were all tapered, the stems were thick (compared to modern hackle), and none of the feathers would tie smaller than about sz 10.

I’m not yet as old as grandpa, but a size 16 would be the smallest you could find on a neck, they would be less than an inch long, and you would need to use at 3 or 4 feathers to tie one fly.  Thought I’d died and gone to heaven when I got my first Metz #2 brown neck.  I still have it but there are no feathers left smaller than #10.                                                         Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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writes:    Hi! I thought that a grade three hackle would be better for tying wet flies than dry, but I just read an article that said that they rate the hackle by the count of usable feathers, the main size, and length. I thought that a grade 3 hackle would be softer hackle than a grade 1 or 2 is this true or are there just more usable feathers on a grade 1. Can you tye as good a dry with a grade 3 hackle as you could with grade 1.  I am simply a begginer I dont know grade 3 hackles are softer by expierience I just thought that was how it was THANKS!

Hi Dolph, As others have said here, none of the growers grade on the same standards.  But within a particular brand, there is a big difference between a #1 and a #3. Historically (this is all subject to change), the #1 necks had higher feather counts, smaller sizes, less webbing, longer length feathers (more useable feather), more flexible stems,  rounder stems, and denser barb counts on the feather (more barbs per inch).  Usually the biggest difference between 1 and 2’s is the quantity of small sizes – more of the 20 through 24 sizes on the #1’s.  Often the #1’s don’t have useable size 10 or 12 feathers because the stems are too thick.  #3 necks often have more webbing than 1’s or 2’s but not always.  Most often the biggest difference between 2’s and 3’s is that the stems on the 3’s are stiffer, and sometimes oblong instead of round.  This makes them very tough to wind. The grading system is hardly perfect and you can often look through a batch of #2’s and find some that are as good as the #1’s and #’3s that are as good as 2’s.   Nothing compares to the Hoffman’s necks.  Their #2’s are comparable to just about anyone elses #1’s.  The saddles make great dry fly tying feathers but primarily have only 2 sizes on them.  The necks have a wide assortment of sizes.  Haven’t seen any saddles that will compare with the Hoffman’s for dry flys. For wet flies I still use hen neck feathers.  They are shorter and have more rounded tips.  These are always webby and fold easily for that swept back look on wets.  Used to be able to find them easily and they were cheap.  Haven’t seen many in recent years.  Get them if you can find them, they are a far better choice for wet flies than rooster necks. We are spoiled today with the necks available.  I remember when indian capes were all that you could get.  I would take a trip over to Tigard, OR once in a while just to paw through Kaufmann’s capes.  Lance and Randall would go over to India each year, select their own stock, and bring it back.  Then Metz started to become available and Henry started to bring over some of his first "super grizzly".  This is one area where materials have only gotten better.                          Good Tying,                               Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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When you use TWO on a dry fly, you need to take a size 16 (for example) feather from the right side of a cape and the left side.   Mr. G.

Good post.   I’m curious about your left/right suggestion.  I never make any effort to use feathers from opposite sides of the cape when double wrapping. Could you elaborate more on why this is useful? Regards, Joe.  

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        Hi! I thought that a grade three hackle would be better for tying wet flies than dry, but I just read an article that said that they rate the hackle by the count of usable feathers, the main size, and length. I thought that a grade 3 hackle would be softer hackle than a grade 1 or 2 is this true or are there just more usable feathers on a grade 1. Can you tye as good a dry with a grade 3 hackle as you could with grade 1.  I am simply a begginer I dont know grade 3 hackles are softer by expierience I just thought that was how it was THANKS!                                         Dolph

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DEAR BUZZARD:  You happen to ask a question that I must rise too.  It is an excellent question.  May I add a few thoughts to get this discussion going? The observation is keen that different hackle manufacturers are indeed grading their hackles differently.  In fact, I doubt the lot of them ever got together and came up with a standard that rates necks from different companies to the same matching-game.  Everyone should give this some thought. Frankly Buzzard, you’re going to have to become a good judge of hackle/necks yourself.  There are certain things you must always pay attention too and I’m not about to cover them all here and now.  But each tier has certain patterns that require different advantages from feathers.  They can be softness, hardness, webbing, lack of webbing, short feathers, long feathers, narrow and wide, the combinations are endless and all feathers have a use in fly tying in one fly or another. Remembe this.  Never throw them away. Besides colors (any color) A feather for DRY FLY FISHING is different in desired aspects than hen feathers for wet flies, nymphs, streamers, etc. BUT!  A hen feather doesn’t necessarily mean it is a feather of less worth. I (personally) won’t settle for a number two neck when for a few dollars more I will be happier with a number one (1)!  The difference between a two and a one can be miles apart even though the numbers are next to each other.  Numbers mean different values to different people.  In grading feathers (Cock necks) throw the number system out the window. Waste it.  It means nothing between manufacturers, BUT with a specific manufacturer such as Hoffman necks, it can be a very reliable numbering system because of one factor.  Hoffman Products (now raised in Grand Junction Colorado) are CONSISTANT and TIGHT in quality.  Whereas; Metz Necks vary with the wind and each chicken season.  Quality always suffers when production increases beyond supervisory abilities.  Hate to say it, but its true. A DRY FLY FEATHER must have certain factors for each tier.  Length, evenly wide hackles, very little webbing, barbel stiffness, sharp tips (not curled on the ends, etc.) flexiable (not brittle) stems, maturity, (in look and feel)  and when you inspect a neck, make sure the skin isn’t brittle so it will crack when bent a little.  (Use some gink on the skin back to keep it from drying out.  Excellent for this, incidently.  And please everyone, don’t slam me for offering a friendly fact) So, basically, today . . .  because of neck retail prices, the trend is splitting a Hoffman neck.  When you buy a split, you are getting only right handed or left  handed bends in feathers.  When you use TWO on a dry fly, you need to take a size 16 (for example) feather from the right side of a cape and the left side.  So, what I’m saying, is . . . if at all possible, always buy the complete neck if its financially comfortable or possible. I’ll let everyone take it from here. Mr. G.         Hi! I thought that a grade three hackle would be better for tying wet flies than dry, but I just read an article that said that they rate the hackle by the count of usable feathers, the main size, and length. I thought that a grade 3 hackle would be softer hackle than a grade 1 or 2 is this true or are there just more usable feathers on a grade 1. Can you tye as good a dry with a grade 3 hackle as you could with grade 1.  I am simply a begginer I dont know grade 3 hackles are softer by expierience I just thought that was how it was THANKS!                                         Dolph

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Question:

Greetings! I am interested in discussing saltwater flyfishing techniques with anyone who has tried it in the Pacific Northwest.  I’m especially interested in talking to folks who may have tried flyfishing for cod, seabass, or salmon species. Thanks! Best Wishes, Tim Wittman

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Greetings! I am interested in discussing saltwater flyfishing techniques with anyone who has tried it in the Pacific Northwest.  I’m especially interested in talking to folks who may have tried flyfishing for cod, seabass, or salmon species. Thanks! Best Wishes, Tim Wittman

     i have tried, been fairly successful, and had a great time.  i really enjoy fishing for seabass (black rockfish).  it is more difficult without a boat, but casting flies from a jetty is very challenging fishing, from casting to landing fish.      as for tackle, i use a 9.5 ft. 9 wt.  with a ten foot section of cortland quick descent 425 or 325 grain sink tip.  i use a short leader, with 10 or 12 lb. maxima leader.  the flies i use are tube flies, mostly baitfish patterns from 2-5 inches long. the coolest thing about jetty fishing is when you happen to hook one of the big lings, i haven’t landed one yet (they swim into and under the jetty), but they sure can pull.      as for salmon, a boat helps in puget sound, although there is some beach access for resident coho.  look at the new regs for the strait this year, a 2 week, catch and release, surface flies only coho fishery this summer.  i would like to know if anybody in computer land has had any success fishing pink salmon in the strait of juan de fuca, especially flies and fly lines?       as for cod, i just do not know.  the local paper ran an article a couple days ago on the need for saltwater sanctuaries to bring back bottomfish(cod included) in puget sound. good luck, chris

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings! I am interested in discussing saltwater flyfishing techniques with anyone who has tried it in the Pacific Northwest.  I’m especially interested in talking to folks who may have tried flyfishing for cod, seabass, or salmon species. Thanks! Best Wishes, Tim Wittman

There are plenty of folks around here doing this; you might want to contact The Northwest Angler in Poulsbo, they specialize in saltwater. They aren’t on line yet, we’re working on it. Fish on, Allen

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings! I am interested in discussing saltwater flyfishing techniques with anyone who has tried it in the Pacific Northwest.  I’m especially interested in talking to folks who may have tried flyfishing for cod, seabass, or salmon species. Thanks! Best Wishes, Tim Wittman

Tim, You might want to try the WaFlyfishers, an email list I maintain.  Send email to:   Subject line.   Activity on the list is sporadic, but there a couple of avid salt-water fly fishers, including myself, that will try to keep you posted. Let me know if you have any problems with the list or if you have any other questions.  BTW, where abouts do you hail from?? -Wes Wes Neuenschwander Seattle, WA, US * Notice:  Email address modified to foil SPAMMERS!!  * *          Delete "cut-it-out" from my email address  * *          to reply.  Sorry for the inconvenience.    *

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are very pleased to announce the all new, FISHINTERNET AUSTRALIA http://www.fishnet.com.au/ This internet service is dedicated to the Australian recreational fishing scene. Sections cover all aspects of fishing in Australia with excellent information resources, fishing reports from around the country, full directory of all tackle shops, marine dealers, charters, guides, resorts etc. Please let us know what you think of this new service. Regards, David Dryden         Fishinternet Australia         http://www.fishnet.com.au/ I checked your page. It looks good. Can you help me with advice on fly-fishing for Barramundi in the Cairns / Port Douglas area, or even further north into Cape York. I’ve heard this is something of a new frontier in salt water fly fishing and that the Barramunid is excellent quarry. I will be in the area for 2 weeks in September. I’d like to know about seasons, flies, techniques, guides, etc. Thanks. Christopher Payne. Can you assure me of the availability of that nectar of the gods known

as Crown Lager Beer, its to die for. CL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are very pleased to announce the all new, FISHINTERNET AUSTRALIA http://www.fishnet.com.au/ This internet service is dedicated to the Australian recreational fishing scene. Sections cover all aspects of fishing in Australia with excellent information resources, fishing reports from around the country, full directory of all tackle shops, marine dealers, charters, guides, resorts etc. Please let us know what you think of this new service. Regards, David Dryden         Fishinternet Australia         http://www.fishnet.com.au/

I checked your page. It looks good. Can you help me with advice on fly-fishing for Barramundi in the Cairns / Port Douglas area, or even further north into Cape York. I’ve heard this is something of a new frontier in salt water fly fishing and that the Barramunid is excellent quarry. I will be in the area for 2 weeks in September. I’d like to know about seasons, flies, techniques, guides, etc. Thanks. Christopher Payne.

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We are very pleased to announce the all new, FISHINTERNET AUSTRALIA http://www.fishnet.com.au/ This internet service is dedicated to the Australian recreational fishing scene. Sections cover all aspects of fishing in Australia with excellent information resources, fishing reports from around the country, full directory of all tackle shops, marine dealers, charters, guides, resorts etc. Please let us know what you think of this new service. Regards, David Dryden          Fishinternet Australia          http://www.fishnet.com.au/

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Question:

<snip but it also has these heavy nylon cord loops on both sleaves and on the back.  What are these used for?  I think it’s some kind of fly-fishing kind of thing.<snip

The loops are for little cable retracter thingys to attach to, which in turn attach to yer fly floatant and nippers, etc…. (:-) Jim

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I just bought a really coool Columbia shirt with all kinds of niffty pockets with Velcro closures and stuff, but it also has these heavy nylon cord loops on both sleaves and on the back.  What are these used for?  I think it’s some kind of fly-fishing kind of thing. We don’t know much about fly-fishing down here in Texas.  In fact, our idea of fishing is to set a tub of clean water down by a muddy creek and wack the fish on the head with sticks as they wiggle up on the bank trying to get to the clean water. Thanks, Gary Joe

Gary,         Those are called ’stringers’, and are used to ’string up’ the guy wearing the shirt for being an elitist, yuppie flyfisherperson.  You’ll notice that the location of the loops prevents the wearer of the shirt from reaching the attaching harness to get loose.  Once the elitist, yuppie flyfisherperson (EYF) is strung up the rest is like shooting fish in a tub of clean water!  :^) Charley

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I just bought a really coool Columbia shirt with all kinds of niffty pockets with Velcro closures and stuff, but it also has these heavy nylon cord loops on both sleaves and on the back.  What are these used for?  I think it’s some kind of fly-fishing kind of thing. We don’t know much about fly-fishing down here in Texas.  In fact, our idea of fishing is to set a tub of clean water down by a muddy creek and wack the fish on the head with sticks as they wiggle up on the bank trying to get to the clean water. Thanks, Gary Joe      <Opinions expressed and/or implied are not necessarily those of UPR         "I don’t know why I do stuff…I just do it."  - Bart Simpson

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Question:

Sorry about the subject error, but does anyone know of any WWW sites about fly fishing

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The only ones I know of are: http://www.geo.mtu.edu/~jsuchosk/fish/fishpage http://www.indirect.com/ftplink/jshannon.indirect.com.html http://www.unm.edu/pub/flyfish/flyfish.html http://www2.ecst.csuchico.edu/~jschlich http://oeonline.com/~rmarsh/fishpg.html http://www.mind.net/vmt http://www.getnet.com/salmoart http://rmii.com/~flyshop/flyshop.html http://zebu.uoregon.edu/cgi-bin2/Mckenzie/Mckfrontend.pl http://www.peak.org/~robertr/fishing.html http://eagle.dfw.or.gov I hope it is appropriate to publish these.  I started to just email them to you, then decided others might be interested.  I make no guarantees on the effectiveness of these addresses.   If my typing skills don’t get you, some are untested, some are just dated.  I haven’t actually tried all of these since I generally get into this group before getting on the WEB and then I run out of time after reading all the posts on how we hate YUPs.  I need to start a thread on Lawyers…… Have fun, Charley

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