Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver?

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Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver?

Deer Lake and Pacific Ocean donaldduck

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Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver?

Deer Lake and Pacific Ocean. donaldduck

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Granville Island Market

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver? Deer Lake and Pacific Ocean donaldduck

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Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver?

Vancouver Island renee

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http://www.predatorcharters.com http://www.thefishingclub.com/ http://www.guidebc.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver? Deer Lake and Pacific Ocean. donaldduck

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Try Fred’s Fishing Adventures out of Chilliwack.  Outstanding for Sturgeon, Salmon and Steelhead.  Fished with him last Sunday, great trip.  Fly fishing for Pinks a little later in the summer should be outstanding!!! http://www.freds-bc.com/ — <*))))< Paul Phillips Director of Operations Fintastic Fish Mounts http://www.fintastic.com/ spam block x

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver?

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early June is prime but many lakes offer good fishing into the 1st half of July. Mid to late June into the 1st week of July is prime time for travelling sedges. The merrit area about 1 hour south west of Kamloops is also good and there is a very nice looking golf course just east of the town with a large modern resort. Salmon Lake, Glimpse, Peterhope, Plateau, the Lakes of the Douglas Lake Ranch and also Roche Lake and it’s many nearby lakes are all close by. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Prime time out of Kamloops for fly fishing is May/June as it is not very high elevation. July can be too late for the good fishing. For golf and fishing, I would pick a week in early June. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com What time of year? Can’t advise much on golf as I don’t. The Kamloops area is a good bet. My ex boss retired up there a few years back to engage his interest in both pursuits. It’s best known for it’s still water fishery with dozens of lakes within an hour or two’s drive. There is some fine stream fishing as well. Wanting to put together a fishing/golfing trip to BC. Any suggestions on an area we might find good prospects for both activities?

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Great! Thanks much.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve golfed a lot in Kamloops and they have some real good courses. Dunes, Rivershore and one up on the plateau on the south side of #1 going east.  Forget the name but it’s a nice one as well.  Good fishing just south of Kamloops in the Logan lake area.  About 1 hour gets you to lots of fishing lakes. Wanting to put together a fishing/golfing trip to BC. Any suggestions on an area we might find good prospects for both activities?

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Prime time out of Kamloops for fly fishing is May/June as it is not very high elevation. July can be too late for the good fishing. For golf and fishing, I would pick a week in early June. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What time of year? Can’t advise much on golf as I don’t. The Kamloops area is a good bet. My ex boss retired up there a few years back to engage his interest in both pursuits. It’s best known for it’s still water fishery with dozens of lakes within an hour or two’s drive. There is some fine stream fishing as well. Wanting to put together a fishing/golfing trip to BC. Any suggestions on an area we might find good prospects for both activities?

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Thanks for the additional information. k

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Prime time out of Kamloops for fly fishing is May/June as it is not very high elevation. July can be too late for the good fishing. For golf and fishing, I would pick a week in early June. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com What time of year? Can’t advise much on golf as I don’t. The Kamloops area is a good bet. My ex boss retired up there a few years back to engage his interest in both pursuits. It’s best known for it’s still water fishery with dozens of lakes within an hour or two’s drive. There is some fine stream fishing as well. Wanting to put together a fishing/golfing trip to BC. Any suggestions on an area we might find good prospects for both activities?

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I’ve golfed a lot in Kamloops and they have some real good courses. Dunes, Rivershore and one up on the plateau on the south side of #1 going east.  Forget the name but it’s a nice one as well.  Good fishing just south of Kamloops in the Logan lake area.  About 1 hour gets you to lots of fishing lakes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wanting to put together a fishing/golfing trip to BC. Any suggestions on an area we might find good prospects for both activities?

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Wanting to put together a fishing/golfing trip to BC. Any suggestions on an area we might find good prospects for both activities?

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What time of year? Can’t advise much on golf as I don’t. The Kamloops area is a good bet. My ex boss retired up there a few years back to engage his interest in both pursuits. It’s best known for it’s still water fishery with dozens of lakes within an hour or two’s drive. There is some fine stream fishing as well. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wanting to put together a fishing/golfing trip to BC. Any suggestions on an area we might find good prospects for both activities?

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We’re thinking June or July.  Will check out Kamloops. Thanks. karen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What time of year? Can’t advise much on golf as I don’t. The Kamloops area is a good bet. My ex boss retired up there a few years back to engage his interest in both pursuits. It’s best known for it’s still water fishery with dozens of lakes within an hour or two’s drive. There is some fine stream fishing as well. Wanting to put together a fishing/golfing trip to BC. Any suggestions on an area we might find good prospects for both activities?

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We’re thinking of calling the lodge "The Royal Humpy", but that conjures up all sorts of double entendres, especially to an Aussie.  

I know you Aussies are tennis fans. So am I. In the US we "root" for our favorite players, and we "pull for them" too. I understand there term have different connotations in Oz. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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We’re thinking of calling the lodge "The Royal Humpy", but that conjures up all sorts of double entendres, especially to an Aussie.  

I know you Aussies are tennis fans. So am I. In the US we "root" for our favorite players, and we "pull for them" too. I understand these terms have different connotations in Oz. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Pete, I’ll bring the lawers, they’re much preferred over politicians. Politicians will drink your Scotch, steal your money, dispoil your land, leave cigar burns on the upholstery, and screw your women. Lawyers……bring their own Scotch. Send the pair of tickets on ahead, I’ll arrive with a bus load of paying customers next February for the GRAND OPENING.  Getting a group together to fly to warm climates in the middle of our winter to catch large trout should prove little enough of a challenge. — Wayne

Well, as long as they bring their own Scotch, the other things are almost forgiveable I guess We’re thinking of calling the lodge "The Royal Humpy", but that conjures up all sorts of double entendres, especially to an Aussie.  In case you’re not familiar with it, a ‘humpy’ is a rather rough and ready bush dwelling, which the lodge definitely won’t be!  Of course apart from being a trout fly, another meaning for humpy could only be imagined, but as for a busload of lawyers being involved, well….. — Pete, Brisbane, Australia To reply by email, remove the "DAMNSPAM" from the address in the header.

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We’re thinking of calling the lodge "The Royal Humpy", but that conjures up all sorts of double entendres, especially to an Aussie.   I know you Aussies are tennis fans. So am I. In the US we "root" for our favorite players, and we "pull for them" too. I understand there term have different connotations in Oz.

maybe that’s why so many Americans wear spectacles…… didn’t do QUITE enough to send you blind Sorry – couldn’t resist it. But seriously – if anyone is genuinely interested in a holiday to the Tasmanian highlands next year, let me know.   The lake we’re building on is 280 acres, and is part of the London Lakes complex, which many will have heard of.   The lake is called Highland Waters, and is part of a 586 acre property.   The trout are big, plentiful, and a bugger to catch – a real challenge.   Oh, and did I mention that the scenery is beautiful?  And the lodge will be very comfortable, with a deck overlooking the lake, and plenty of room for the barbecue on which to cook the big rainbows you’ll catch there too.  The browns are catch-and-release (that’s how they come to be so big and so smart) but the rainbows are catch-and-barbecue — Pete, Brisbane, Australia To reply by email, remove the "DAMNSPAM" from the address in the header.

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Damn forgot to proof read or use spellcheck!.fter should have An a – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well Wayne. fter the dust settles we wont have enough left to Buy a bus ticket in Mexico city .However I will offfer one nights free accomodation to all ROFFIANS.How you get there is up to you.saltwater Fly fishing for salmon is getting quite popular these days. Hope this is not considered spam.After 2.5 years of retirement my wife and I have purchased a small fishing lodge in a remote corner of B.C. Its near Night inlet water access or air only.At present there are two rental cabins.We plan on a few more.It is called Chatham channel lodge.Among the various fishing activities are whale and bear watching hiking kayaking Eagles and shellfish.I have no idea how we are going to market our opportunities but hopefully we will see some of you at the Vancouver or Seattle sportsman’s show.We may or may not have email depending on cost etc..If we do I will continue to correspond with all ROFFians. Congratulations on the purchase.  Marketing is a make or break necessity.  What you need is a representative near the lucrative Washington DC market with access to top Pentagon brass and a number of politicians.  Boondoggles to the "North Country" are quite popular. For an "all expense paid trip for 2" I will be happy to promote the hell out of your lodge in ALL the right places in a top money producing market.  With proper incentive I might even be cajoled into an annual trip with a bus load of paying (top dollar) influential customers in tow. — Wayne BOONDOGGLES-ARE-US To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Congratulations on the purchase.  Marketing is a make or break necessity.  What you need is a representative near the lucrative Washington DC market with access to top Pentagon brass and a number of politicians.  Boondoggles to the "North Country" are quite popular. For an "all expense paid trip for 2" I will be happy to promote the hell out of your lodge in ALL the right places in a top money producing market.  With proper incentive I might even be cajoled into an annual trip with a bus load of paying (top dollar) influential customers in tow. — Wayne BOONDOGGLES-ARE-US To fish is human….To release Divine!

As a long-time lurker but infrequent poster here, can I push my own little barrow too? We are building a "little" lodge on one of Tasmania’s highland lakes, a fully private fishery with monster wild brown trout up to 10 lbs or more.  Sight-fishing to tailing brownies in the Tasmanian highlands is really something special.   We are looking at rentals on a weekend or weekly basis, and would be keen to know if there is any significant interest on ROFF. Building should be finished by December/January.  Closed season is the winter 3-months from June through August.  Rental prices not yet figured out. Wayne – you could always come out on a ‘freebie’ as long as you brought a busload of paying punters with you. )  Mind you – I’m not sure which would be worse – a busload of politicians or a busload of lawyers…. heheh — Pete, Brisbane, Australia To reply by email, remove the "DAMNSPAM" from the address in the header.

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Well Wayne. fter the dust settles we wont have enough left to Buy a bus ticket in Mexico city .However I will offfer one nights free accomodation to all ROFFIANS.How you get there is up to you.saltwater Fly fishing for salmon is getting quite popular these days. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hope this is not considered spam.After 2.5 years of retirement my wife and I have purchased a small fishing lodge in a remote corner of B.C. Its near Night inlet water access or air only.At present there are two rental cabins.We plan on a few more.It is called Chatham channel lodge.Among the various fishing activities are whale and bear watching hiking kayaking Eagles and shellfish.I have no idea how we are going to market our opportunities but hopefully we will see some of you at the Vancouver or Seattle sportsman’s show.We may or may not have email depending on cost etc..If we do I will continue to correspond with all ROFFians. Congratulations on the purchase.  Marketing is a make or break necessity.  What you need is a representative near the lucrative Washington DC market with access to top Pentagon brass and a number of politicians.  Boondoggles to the "North Country" are quite popular. For an "all expense paid trip for 2" I will be happy to promote the hell out of your lodge in ALL the right places in a top money producing market.  With proper incentive I might even be cajoled into an annual trip with a bus load of paying (top dollar) influential customers in tow. — Wayne BOONDOGGLES-ARE-US To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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As a long-time lurker but infrequent poster here, can I push my own little barrow too? We are building a "little" lodge on one of Tasmania’s highland lakes,

a fully private fishery with monster wild brown trout up to 10 lbs or more.  Sight-fishing to

tailing brownies in the Tasmanian highlands is really something special. We are looking at rentals on a weekend or weekly basis, and would be

keen to know if there is any significant interest on ROFF. Building should be finished by December/January.  Closed season is

the winter 3-months from June through August.  Rental prices not yet figured out. Wayne – you could always come out on a ‘freebie’ as long as you

brought a busload of paying punters with you. )  Mind you – I’m not sure which would be worse –

a busload of politicians or a busload of lawyers…. heheh Pete, Brisbane, Australia

Pete, I’ll bring the lawers, they’re much preferred over politicians. Politicians will drink your Scotch, steal your money, dispoil your land, leave cigar burns on the upholstery, and screw your women. Lawyers……bring their own Scotch. Send the pair of tickets on ahead, I’ll arrive with a bus load of paying customers next February for the GRAND OPENING.  Getting a group together to fly to warm climates in the middle of our winter to catch large trout should prove little enough of a challenge. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Hope this is not considered spam.After 2.5 years of retirement my wife and I have purchased a small fishing lodge in a remote corner of B.C. Its near Night inlet water access or air only.At present there are two rental cabins.We plan on a few more.It is called Chatham channel lodge.Among the various fishing activities are whale and bear watching hiking kayaking Eagles and shellfish.I have no idea how we are going to market our opportunities but hopefully we will see some of you at the Vancouver or Seattle sportsman’s show.We may or may not have email depending on cost etc..If we do I will continue to correspond with all ROFFians.

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Hope this is not considered spam.After 2.5 years of retirement my wife and I have purchased a small fishing lodge in a remote corner of B.C. Its near Night inlet water access or air only.At present there are two rental cabins.We plan on a few more.It is called Chatham channel lodge.Among the various fishing activities are whale and bear watching hiking kayaking Eagles and shellfish.I have no idea how we are going to market our opportunities but hopefully we will see some of you at the Vancouver or Seattle sportsman’s show.We may or may not have email depending on cost etc..If we do I will continue to correspond with all ROFFians.

Congratulations on the purchase.  Marketing is a make or break necessity.  What you need is a representative near the lucrative Washington DC market with access to top Pentagon brass and a number of politicians.  Boondoggles to the "North Country" are quite popular. For an "all expense paid trip for 2" I will be happy to promote the hell out of your lodge in ALL the right places in a top money producing market.  With proper incentive I might even be cajoled into an annual trip with a bus load of paying (top dollar) influential customers in tow. — Wayne BOONDOGGLES-ARE-US To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Hi I am off pretty soon for Spring break also, I live just outside of Spokane Wa. for a while I lived in Grangeville ID, Where is a good place to go around here? I moved here about a year and a half ago, but worked it mostly, so I didn’t get out much… I know the canyons at Hell’s gate, or Pittsburgh landing, near White bird ID, should be warming up just a touch, like 65-70, which to me is real warm.. at this point. Or go to Lewiston ID or the S.E. Or side of the Snake river.. I can’t decide… What’s going on now? I mean hatch wise… I also heard the Henry’s Fork was good also in the middle of to end of march.. Any body have any info? Thanks!  R.J. Baynum ICQ 29449252

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<<Hi I am off pretty soon for Spring break also, I live just outside of Spokane Wa. for a while I lived in Grangeville ID, Where is a good place to go around here? I moved here about a year and a half ago, but worked it mostly, so I didn’t get out much… I know the canyons at Hell’s gate, or Pittsburgh landing, near White bird ID, should be warming up just a touch, like 65-70, which to me is real warm.. at this point. Or go to Lewiston ID or the S.E. Or side of the Snake river.. I can’t decide… What’s going on now? I mean hatch wise… I also heard the Henry’s Fork was good also in the middle of to end of march.. Any body have any info? Thanks!  R.J. Baynum ICQ 29449252 Hey R.J.  We need to hook up and go flyfishing together.  I too live about 20 minutes South of Spokane and am always looking for new fishing buddies. The best bet for this time of year is the St. Joe by St. Maries, ID.  Call Propps Fly Shop or the Silver Bow for water conditions and hatch information. They can also direct you to what else is hot right now. There is also some tremendous lake fishing starting to happen in the Columbia Basin.  If  you want to get into some fish over the 20 inch mark the Lake Lenice or Lenore are the places to be. Email me and let’s plan a trip. Mike Wilson

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HI, has anyone built a whitewater dory from plans.  I have found some Mckenzie Drift boat plans, and these seam very similat to what I want. Any help appreciated. Steve Gubser Johnson City, TN

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There are a number of suppliers for your project. Check out a fly fishing magazine in the classified.  Don Hill  in Springfield Oregon  puts out plan, partial kit, and full kit.  (www.driftboats.com)  or Driftboat plans from Montana, www.montana-riverboats.com/boats/index.html,  Tracy Obrian at www.calacess.com/tracy/boatpage.htm or Greg Tatman Wooden boats  at www.gregboats.com .  Also John’s  page if useful, www.cyber-dyne.com/jkohnen/nautical.html  Have fun.  I’m currently working on a highsided 18′  for GrandCanyon and Salmon/Snake waters.

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I picked up a habit from other hobby, jogging:  I never go out in the woods without pepper spray.  The stuff sold under the name "Halt" is made for dogs. Any dog that is not on a leash and within range of the spray is fair game.  A

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So people like me who carry a sidearm can have a target if the fishing gets slow (OR THE FISH GET PUT DOWN!) Bob _____ Robert?  I can’t believe you said this or that you really mean it. sigh.

Absolutely tongue-in-cheek, Mr. G.!  I love dogs.  (If prepared properly…) No, really… I love dogs and cats.  My last dog was a constant companion, except for fly fishing trips.  He did get to go to the streams on walks though, and LOVED the water.  My favorite behavior of his was "dipping for smelt."  When the smelt would run up the tributaries of Lake George, NY, I’d take old Elmo to a nearby stream.  He’d wade in, trap one of the thousands of smelt against the bottom with his paw, stick his head under to grab it, then wade out of the stream to eat it.  Then back in, etc. etc.  I could never figure out why he wouldn’t eat it while in the stream…. He was known to jump out of the boat into the water after a jumping smallmouth or landlocked salmon.  He also was caught several times in the process of stealing fish from other ice fishermen in the winter.   His  bear ancestry came out in his appetite for fish.  He’d empty a minnow bucket in no time if you left the lid off.  (Bobbing for snacks). I miss him as much as any person I ever knew. Bob Scott

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I have seen some very well behaved dogs at the waterside but you should only take your dog if you can guarantee it’s behaviour.

I have a 5 month old black labrador(Gwilym)…….I’ll say no more! He’s bloody gorgeous! — Bill

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Bill, Labradors are the most loving and gentle dog I have ever seen.  They are quick learners and I am certain you can train it so it will be no trouble to any one on the stream.  Be careful around West Coast Salmon Rivers when the Salmon are Spawning.  A dog that eats dead salmon will get poisoned and die from it.  The vet has medication for this.  Once he has been Salmoned and recovers it will not bother him again. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen some very well behaved dogs at the waterside but you should only take your dog if you can guarantee it’s behaviour. I have a 5 month old black labrador(Gwilym)…….I’ll say no more! He’s bloody gorgeous! — Bill

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Bill I am sure that your pup will be the very model of Welsh decorum — Regards, Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen some very well behaved dogs at the waterside but you should only take your dog if you can guarantee it’s behaviour. I have a 5 month old black labrador(Gwilym)…….I’ll say no more! He’s bloody gorgeous! — Bill

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I am sure that your pup will be the very model of Welsh decorum

He’s at the stage when he’s teething and wants to mouth everything. People tell me this will pass, but will my hands and arm last that long? Come to think of it will my kitchen last that long?…:-) But he’s bloody gorgeous! — Bill

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Went to local outdoors show recently and some idiot had a puppy about 6 mos. old on a leash walking around for everybody to trip on.  STUPID and VERY INCONSIDERATE OF OTHERS! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So people like me who carry a sidearm can have a target if the fishing gets slow (OR THE FISH GET PUT DOWN!) Bob

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My friend Karen invited me on her family’s annual steelhead trip to the Klamath. Her dad had gone with his dad too, a fifty year tradition. I had never caught an adult steely on the fly in years of trying, never really knew what I was doing; this was my chance. She brought her Cocker Spaniel, Tio. It managed to keep up with us scrambling over boulders and cliffs with his short little legs, swimming valiantly where we’d wade across. He never barked, and kept us laughing all week after he rolled around in the fireside embers staying warm in the drizzle, singeing his tan coat with spots of brown burn and black charcoal. Karen and I were fishing a nice looking riffle where her dad had caught one the day before when Tio started a long low plaintive howl. By the end of the howl Karen was into a good fish. A few minutes later Tio howled again and I was into my first steelhead. Karen dunked herself landing it. There can never be payback for these kind of gifts, but I made a painting of it for her birthday and inscribed it "Howl me up a Steelhead Tio." Tio is blind now and hasn’t made the trip the last couple of years. We never know anymore when the fish will bite. Mark Vinsel www.vinsel.com

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Piere writes: <sniped nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre Some of us have the sense to teach our dogs the *down* and *stay*.  My Shepard will lie quietly on the bank until given permission to roam.  That may be a minute or it may be 2 hours, it’s up to me.  A good dog is one of God’s finest gifts. Patrick

  ______ Amen

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Maybe if they do, the Western Ettiquite thing won’t kick in…. I mean, the dogs will chase off anyone within 100 feet (or 200 feet on the water, in the case of Lewellyns) and wiith the exception of George’s dogs..most of em can’t fish, so you’ll have no competition….and from some of the assinine posts here lately (this one included…=8^)) I’d bet the majority of folks here couldn’t get another HUMAN to fish with them!!! HAR HAR HAR…..

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(lots of stuff previously posted deleted here) .  Do you own a dog by the way?

        well, george, now that you ask:  i don’t presently own a dog. i have often heard it said around piedmont n.c. that a man will be lucky with his women or lucky with his dogs, but never lucky with both.  thank god, i number myself among the former.  i have only owned two dogs.  the first, rachel, supposedly a high dollar english setter, ate two bobwhites i killed the first day i hunted her, and began to choke.  she crawled backwards (no lie) all the way back to the house, and damn near died.  i gave her away that weekend.  the next dog was a brittany named "rascal"; again, i was assured of the high quality breeding behind the noble animal.  papers, the whole nine yards, as we say in rowan county.  what i ended up with was a manic/depressive maddog that lived only to attack my two toddlers.  to this day they refuse to watch "lassie come home".  so, i guess i fall on the side of the anti-fishing dog argument.  anyway, thanks for all the good floating you have given my royal wulffs.         a. wayne harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have five Llewellyn Setters.  You should come fish with us sometime. Keep smiling.

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IF…the dog does not bark at the slightest provocation….does not urinate on the tires of my Jeep….does not continually have to be watched because he’s wandered down to where I’m fishing and in the way of my backcast…then, perhaps, the dog is okay.  But, in fairness, there are some people that should be barred from the rivers along with the untrained dog. Barry P.S.  As an aside….something to be really careful about is allowing your dog to wander freely in a heavily fished area…where he may find the remains of a cleaned fish and eat it.  I’ve been told that such a lunch can poison a dog.  Maybe the biology experts in the Group can verify this one way or the other. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hehehe…my dog loves to fish! and I love having him along…..if someone "downstream" is bothered by this then the "downstream" person is fishing to close to me and should feel lucky to be in our presence.     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! [deleted] Unless’en ya gotchersef a gud fishin’ dog Pierre… …but perhaps you will not understand this… Hmmm…. Go watch the adventures of Yellow Dog.  Not Old Yeller….Yellow Dog, and chime back in afterwards. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! This person was whistling and calling for his damn mutt every time he disappeared from view ..he was probably afraid that the thing would get killed by another fisherman. Between running and diving into the water nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

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    I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!!

[deleted] Unless’en ya gotchersef a gud fishin’ dog Pierre… …but perhaps you will not understand this… Hmmm…. Go watch the adventures of Yellow Dog.  Not Old Yeller….Yellow Dog, and chime back in afterwards. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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hehehe…my dog loves to fish! and I love having him along…..if someone "downstream" is bothered by this then the "downstream" person is fishing to close to me and should feel lucky to be in our presence. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! [deleted] Unless’en ya gotchersef a gud fishin’ dog Pierre… …but perhaps you will not understand this… Hmmm…. Go watch the adventures of Yellow Dog.  Not Old Yeller….Yellow Dog, and chime back in afterwards. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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So people like me who carry a sidearm can have a target if the fishing gets slow (OR THE FISH GET PUT DOWN!) Bob

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i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

Pierre,   Don’t judge all dogowners by one bad experience. Generally, I have found a good dog to be a better partner on the stream than most of the humans available…..when we ban animals from our rivers, do we just stick to the banks on back? Also, where are we going to put all the deer and bears and all? You may want to re-think this idea.                                                 Tom Littleton

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i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

Please don’t make sweeping generalizations, a well trained dog can be a wonderful fishing companion.  If anything, at least attack the root of the problem.  Start a club that bans clueless humans (who bring untrained and unleashed dogs fishing) from the rivers. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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Piere writes:

<sniped nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

Some of us have the sense to teach our dogs the *down* and *stay*.  My Shepard will lie quietly on the bank until given permission to roam.  That may be a minute or it may be 2 hours, it’s up to me.  A good dog is one of God’s finest gifts. Patrick

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I fished next to someone whose dog was an absolute pain in the ass. It stood on my line when casting, got in the way every time I hooked a fish and the last straw was that it jumped into the water on top of a fish I was about to net, fish and fly departed leaving an empty net, bare leader and livid ptk!! I have seen some very well behaved dogs at the waterside but you should only take your dog if you can guarantee it’s behaviour. — Regards, Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! This person was whistling and calling for his damn mutt every time he disappeared from view ..he was probably afraid that the thing would get killed by another fisherman. Between running and diving into the water nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

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It’s the same with dogs as it is with people, it only takes a few bad ones to give them all a bad name. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre Please don’t make sweeping generalizations, a well trained dog can be a wonderful fishing companion.  If anything, at least attack the root of the problem.  Start a club that bans clueless humans (who bring untrained and unleashed dogs fishing) from the rivers. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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okay I understand that I have raised a hornets nest here and my intention was to get things off my chest..I have two golden retrievers and they will come with me when I go fishing but they STAY when I go and move when I move.. All I wanted to make mention of was that a good dog and ao good owner go together .. I am not a dog hater in any way but sheesh think of others.. I was at the river and the hole first!!! If yoiu have a good hole be considerate Pierre

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okay I understand that I have raised a hornets nest here and my intention was to get things off my chest..I have two golden retrievers

[deleted] Golden Retrievers should make EXCELLENT fishing dogs in the sierras. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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So people like me who carry a sidearm can have a target if the fishing gets slow (OR THE FISH GET PUT DOWN!) Bob

_____ Robert?  I can’t believe you said this or that you really mean it. sigh.

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     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! This person was whistling and calling for his damn mutt every time he disappeared from view ..he was probably afraid that the thing would get killed by another fisherman. Between running and diving into the water nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

_____ Well gee, Pierre.  My dogs take me fishing all the time.  One (Bogey) will pick up my fly rod and try and cast it by slowly shaking his head from side to side AFTER he drags it to the river’s edge (believe it or not). Moral?  Don’t set your fly rod down.  It seems you ran into a dog that was having more fun than an otter.   I always move on when I run into a river otter.  They will put fish down every time, the same as this guy  did to me one day on the San Juan, who waded  right through my pool.  I knew I had a problem as soon as I saw he was wearing a base ball hat on backwards!  I do believe he bought a hat that didn’t come with instructions.  Then again, if you had been attacked by a rabid cougar or black bear, you would have had that dog to fake them out while you ran for your bloody life.  Naturally, this is something that triggers predators.  Something that runs.  (Or bitches a lot). Well, it was sad to hear how upset  you were  with this "other fellah’s dog."  Then again, I hate kids that throw rocks in the water, or the shrill sound of a woman screaming at her husband to get out of the river and come on in and EAT!  Or, you could have been distracted by a kayaker, a inner tuber high on grass, or worse yet (and God forbid) a game warden. Yah, life is tough.  City life is tough.  Dogs that don’t get out much is tough on them too.  I’m sure the owner of the dog was distracted by catching so many fish he failed to notice a problem existed.  Do you own a dog by the way? I have five Llewellyn Setters.  You should come fish with us sometime. Keep smiling.

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it was likely the intent to drive you off the run. I’ve experienced the same. Two or three fishing buddies think they can intimidate you off the water. Best thing to do is leave.

But Ralph….. If you leave, haven’t they just accomplished what they set out to do? I know that discretion is the better part of valour and he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day, but dammit there are times when you just gotta say "I was here first" (it works for the natives) With one above and one below I think I’d just camp there for a while. If they really are fishing buddies, its gonna cramp their style to have me in between them and that’s just what I’d do! Tough Sh*t if they don’t like it

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200 feet on Yellowstone Lake is pretty damned close….was the lake calm ?

Tim, I’ve agreed with you most of the time but 200′ anywhere is not close. Joel Axelrad

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P.S. I had some marvelous fishing on scenic small streams (in solitude) in the Park.

Right. I grew up fishing small streams, and I’ve never gotten over the notion that "real" fly fishing is conducted in the quiet ofwilderness and the company of one or two like-minded friends. I also believe that the best fishing is usually found right between your ears and not in some exotic, faraway place on a map. Dennis Smith Loveland, CO

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It is annoying when you are on a lake as big as Yellowstone and some guy driving by sees you catch a fish and the next thing you know you are standing in a crowd of fishermen. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 200 feet on Yellowstone Lake is pretty damned close….was the lake calm ? Tim, I’ve agreed with you most of the time but 200′ anywhere is not close. Joel Axelrad

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t was likely the intent to drive you off the run. I’ve experienced the same. Two or three fishing buddies think they can intimidate you off the water. Best thing to do is leave.

Sometimes I wonder, when I’m in this situation. Maybe if I were to just be a clumsy, noisy fisherman for a while, put all the fish down, then *they* would leave. It might take a while for the pool to settle out again, but it might be worth it. FlyFisherRay

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t was likely the intent to drive you off the run. I’ve experienced the same. Two or three fishing buddies think they can intimidate you off the water. Best thing to do is leave. Sometimes I wonder, when I’m in this situation. Maybe if I were to just be a clumsy, noisy fisherman for a while, put all the fish down, then *they* would leave. It might take a while for the pool to settle out again, but it might be worth it. FlyFisherRay

now I like that! Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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First, there is no such thing as Western etiquette… The South prety much controls the market on regional etiquette (although there it’s known as "hospitality"). Second, if there was such a thing as Western etiquette, the first rule would be: If you’re in a float tube, and you’re (justly or unjustly) rebuffed by a bank fisherman, politely smile and quickly move on. You’ve no idea what he’s got back in his pickup, and you’re worse than a sitting duck, so you don’t want to escalate the conflict. Glad to see you followed rule #1. -chuck o. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just spent a week in Yellowstone Park and am rather confused about etiquette.  Fishing a run on Soda Butte Creek, someone got in at the head of the run, at most 100 feet away, and then his friend got in below me on the same run.  I thought this was very rude, so I drove upstream to another section. The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?     – Offended in Ohio P.S. I had some marvelous fishing on scenic small streams (in solitude) in the Park.  It occurred to me however, that outside of the occasional 15" cutthroat,  I can have just as much fun fishing scenic small streams in Pennsylvania with much lower travel costs.

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Pretty hard to say where this etiquette originated.  This time of year you won’t find many locals fishing the popular tourist places.  In August on Yellowstone Lake, the fisherman in question could have been from damn near any place on the planet. Da? Parochially Yours, Don Kelly Butte, MT

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And of course you assumed he was a "Westerner" ???? A true Westerner would not have called you a bad name – he might just have pulled out his gun and let you have it . A transplanted Pennsyltuckian. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just spent a week in Yellowstone Park and am rather confused about etiquette.  Fishing a run on Soda Butte Creek, someone got in at the head of the run, at most 100 feet away, and then his friend got in below me on the same run.  I thought this was very rude, so I drove upstream to another section. The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?     – Offended in Ohio P.S. I had some marvelous fishing on scenic small streams (in solitude) in the Park.  It occurred to me however, that outside of the occasional 15" cutthroat,  I can have just as much fun fishing scenic small streams in Pennsylvania with much lower travel costs.

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Hell – at that distance you would have trouble figuring out which one of my "Western" fingers I was showing you. My rule of thumb – I assume you got a heavy surf rod and 3 ounces of lead. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 200 feet on Yellowstone Lake is pretty damned close….was the lake calm ? Tim, I’ve agreed with you most of the time but 200′ anywhere is not close. Joel Axelrad

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How about boaters/rafters giving a wide berth to waders? I think that is fairly common Western etiquette. It comes to mind because last year I was wading downstream while nymphing on the Big Hole. A guy and his girl float down right next to me, then pull in not 100 ft. below. I was incensed. I said: "can’t you see I’m heading downstream." They call *me* an asshole and then move on. -CB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First, there is no such thing as Western etiquette… The South prety much controls the market on regional etiquette (although there it’s known as "hospitality"). Second, if there was such a thing as Western etiquette, the first rule would be: If you’re in a float tube, and you’re (justly or unjustly) rebuffed by a bank fisherman, politely smile and quickly move on. You’ve no idea what he’s got back in his pickup, and you’re worse than a sitting duck, so you don’t want to escalate the conflict.

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Hey I’m from Wyoming, and the last place you’ll find me is where all them damn tourists who drive 2000 miles to fish some of the published waters in the state. Seems to me that since they drove all that way, they own the water, Well, I’ll just let them have it. I’ll go where the good fishing is and avoid the crowds, the hassel and the small fish.  And yes, my friend avoid the big waters too, makes more since to go for big fish, Don’t ask, I’m not telling

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I just spent a week in Yellowstone Park and am rather confused about etiquette.  Fishing a run on Soda Butte Creek, someone got in at the head of the run, at most 100 feet away, and then his friend got in below me on the same run.  I thought this was very rude, so I drove upstream to another section.   The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?     – Offended in Ohio P.S. I had some marvelous fishing on scenic small streams (in solitude) in the Park.  It occurred to me however, that outside of the occasional 15" cutthroat,  I can have just as much fun fishing scenic small streams in Pennsylvania with much lower travel costs.  

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Given that Yellowstone is the "magnet" that it is for fishermen, it may be an incorrect assumption that these were "Westerners" you were fishing with/against  =) ….. after all, you were from the "East", right???? 8^) It seems that the "bigger" the water) in name and reputation, the bigger the head of the people fishing it… it’s sort of the "Well, dammit…I came x hundred/thousand miles to fish this water and I’m gonna do as I DAMN WELL PLEASE" so, in the middle of the summer…you can expect some of this. As for the scenery to size ratio….personally, I’d take Wyoming over Pennsylvania ANY DAY!! Now, if you wanna REALLY experience some Western Streamside lack of hospitality…try gettin into a Steelhead or Salmon run in California when the bait and metal fishers are out……say on the American or Feather Rivers….maybe the Lower Sacramento or Klamath…..your choice!! Larry #:)#

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just spent a week in Yellowstone Park and am rather confused about etiquette. Fishing a run on Soda Butte Creek, someone got in at the head of the run, at most 100 feet away, and then his friend got in below me on the same run.  I thought this was very rude, so I drove upstream to another section.   The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?    - Offended in Ohio P.S. I had some marvelous fishing on scenic small streams (in solitude) in the Park.  It occurred to me however, that outside of the occasional 15" cutthroat, I can have just as much fun fishing scenic small streams in Pennsylvania with much lower travel costs.   </PRE</HTML

The guys 100′ up and 100′ down were a little close.  Given the crowded condition of Yellowstone, this time of year, you just have to put up with it. Personally I would enter 200-250 yards up or down from another fellow fisher.  The guy that called you an asshole on the lake was the asshole.  200′ away – what was he using for a fishing rig – a cannon? If you want a great Yellowstone experiance – plan to go 2 weeks after Labor Day.  The crowds are reduced by more than half. The fishing pressure is greatly reduced. The traveling around is twice as fast.  You might run into some rough weather but the fishing, in the park,  is great in bad weather. Joel Axelrad

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I knew a Steelhead fisherman that painted an X on a rock and would get so mad when he found someone standing on it that he started taking it home. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Given that Yellowstone is the "magnet" that it is for fishermen, it may be an incorrect assumption that these were "Westerners" you were fishing with/against  =) ….. after all, you were from the "East", right???? 8^) It seems that the "bigger" the water) in name and reputation, the bigger the head of the people fishing it… it’s sort of the "Well, dammit…I came x hundred/thousand miles to fish this water and I’m gonna do as I DAMN WELL PLEASE" so, in the middle of the summer…you can expect some of this. As for the scenery to size ratio….personally, I’d take Wyoming over Pennsylvania ANY DAY!! Now, if you wanna REALLY experience some Western Streamside lack of hospitality…try gettin into a Steelhead or Salmon run in California when the bait and metal fishers are out……say on the American or Feather Rivers….maybe the Lower Sacramento or Klamath…..your choice!! Larry #:)#

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I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?

 Very ignorant, but then he probably felt safe at this distance! — Bill

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When fishing any of the popularcrowdedfamous waters in the West, you’re sure to run into A**H****.  Fly fishing is not a social or team sport and there are no rules or "etiquette" (whatever that is). Ob these pubilicized waters, it often more like going to a Mall on dollar day and trying to fight the crowds for a "bargain." This is ONE of the reasons I personally avoid these waters. The West has alot of lesser known rivers and streams that provide some great fishing away from the crowds. However, these waters are getting harder and harder to find and most are kept "secret."  (See post about To Tell Or Not To Tell) These are very hard to find when travelling unless you do some homework before you go. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just spent a week in Yellowstone Park and am rather confused about etiquette.  Fishing a run on Soda Butte Creek, someone got in at the head of the run, at most 100 feet away, and then his friend got in below me on the same run.  I thought this was very rude, so I drove upstream to another section. The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?     – Offended in Ohio P.S. I had some marvelous fishing on scenic small streams (in solitude) in the Park.  It occurred to me however, that outside of the occasional 15" cutthroat,  I can have just as much fun fishing scenic small streams in Pennsylvania with much lower travel costs.

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I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this? Very ignorant, but then he probably felt safe at this distance!

Very good point Bill… offensiveness is so often directly proportional to distance or percieved invulnerability.  Witness the sad characters who use terms such as ‘pig-headed twit’, ‘eat sh.. and die’ etc in what is supposed to be a sociable forum such as this.  One wonders if they would use the same school-yard insults face to face?  Probably not, as a hearty smack in the mouth can be pretty offensive too, in its own way. We can be nasty little characters, safely closeted away with our computers, or at the other side of a raging river.  Schoolboys even make faces at gigantic ’silverback’ male gorillas – from the other side of the bars, of course. Just the opinion of this birtish ninny. — Stuart Nuttall (Replace ‘nospam’ with ‘warboyz’ to reply by e-mail)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very good point Bill… offensiveness is so often directly proportional to distance or percieved invulnerability.  Witness the sad characters who use terms such as ‘pig-headed twit’, ‘eat sh.. and die’ etc in what is supposed to be a sociable forum such as this.  One wonders if they would use the same school-yard insults face to face?  Probably not, as a hearty smack in the mouth can be pretty offensive too, in its own way. We can be nasty little characters, safely closeted away with our computers, or at the other side of a raging river.  Schoolboys even make faces at gigantic ’silverback’ male gorillas – from the other side of the bars, of course. Just the opinion of this birtish ninny. — Stuart Nuttall (Replace ‘nospam’ with ‘warboyz’ to reply by e-mail)

Thanks for some back-up Stuart. Hey, us birtish ninnies have to stick together! No, seriously though, it just isn’t worth the effort. Ever fish Bewl? Aye, Tony

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Here in New York State, we have some of the most reprehensible streamside behavior there is on the Salmon River.  Enormous crowds will snag fish, litter, blare radios, cut in on spots or even individual fish, pick fistfights or even exchange gunfire.  It is a world class fishery swarmed by bottom class humanity. Let the occasional insult just roll right off you.  It could be far worse. Pete C

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I just spent a week in Yellowstone Park and am rather confused about etiquette. Fishing a run on Soda Butte Creek, someone got in at the head of the run, at most 100 feet away, and then his friend got in below me on the same run.  I thought this was very rude, so I drove upstream to another section.

it was likely the intent to drive you off the run. I’ve experienced the same. Two or three fishing buddies think they can intimidate you off the water. Best thing to do is leave. The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?

the accepted protocol is don’t come  any closer than 2 maximum cast lengths or about 150 feet (give or take) – so the fella’ in question was likely suffering from a mild case of caffine poisoning. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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[deleted] The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.

[deleted] 200 feet on Yellowstone Lake is pretty damned close….was the lake calm ? Was it clear ? You probably *did* spook his fishing to some degree….was it necessary to pass that close ?  Why ?  Remember, this guy was on vacation too man. But, you asked…is there a western ettiquette ? If there is one, it would have to be that we haven’t quite given in to the notion of fishing in a crowd. What seems like a lot of room to you is ‘butt-buddy’ close out here.  Like I said…Lake Yellowstone is HUGE (how many miles of shoreline…? How many anglers on the shore ?) You come flippin through within a couple of hundred feet and it ‘feels’ like you’re crawling up ‘em. And then there *is* the current politics.  Many bait and lure anglers out here feel (VERY JUSTIFIED IMO) that the flyfishing/float tubing/Orvis Wearing/Jeep Driving/Catch and Release Angling contingent is the bassmaster ruination of the sport (Western Flyfishing).  These guys just took it out on you. There it is.  Unabashed support for the shore angler and a Western etiquette. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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I knew a Steelhead fisherman that painted an X on a rock and would get so mad when he found someone standing on it that he started taking it home.

at least he knew what mattered most to him … or perhaps he wanted to cook up a good "Stone Soup"? Is there a bridge here between the endless c&r c&k dialectic? Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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My rule of thumb: if possible, Two of my casts plus one of his casts distance between me and him. Using this rule, you would both have to cast 60 – 70 feet. Not likely. FlyFisherRay

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Does anyone have any information on the actual fishing conditions (hatch, water temp. water level…) for the rivers in the northern part of New York state (Chateauguay, Salmon Marbel, Ausable, Saranac, Chasy…..). Or better phone numbers where I could get these information on a daily basis.

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Does anyone have any information on the actual fishing conditions (hatch, water temp. water level…) for the rivers in the northern part of New York state (Chateauguay, Salmon Marbel, Ausable, Saranac, Chasy…..). Or better phone numbers where I could get these information on a daily basis.

Check out Francis Betters’ site… I think it’s called the Adirondack Fisherman, or something like that.  Do a search with his name and fly fishing.  I believe he posts a hatch report for the Ausable, and will give really up-to-date info by phone. Bob Scott

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Being fairly new to fly fishing (3 year only)  I wonder what to use up at Invermoriston at the end of May for salmon. Any suggestions angela

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You might be better posting this on uk.rec.fishing.game as well, there should be someone with local knowledge. — Regards Peter (Remove "nospam"to email)

:Being fairly new to fly fishing (3 year only)  I wonder what to use up at :Invermoriston at the end of May for salmon. Any suggestions :angela : :

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I maybe taking a job in Deerfield, IL (Lake county) and will probably live in Northern Illinois or Souther Wisconsin.  Can Anyone tell me what to expect in the way of Fishing.  I am currently Living in CT where there is fishing aplenty.  Any info would be greatly appreciated. Jon

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I maybe taking a job in Deerfield, IL (Lake county) and will probably live in Northern Illinois or Souther Wisconsin.  Can Anyone tell me what to expect in the way of Fishing.

The only fly fishing in Northern Illinois is for bass, crappie, blue gill, and other pan fish.  At times it can be very good. Wisconsin is another story.  South-west Wisconsin is loaded with some of the finest spring creeks around.  They are teaming with browns, rainbows, and brookies.  South-east all along Lake Michigan has many streams with runs of steelhead, and salmon. There is a lot of great fly fishing in Wisconsin. Joel Axelrad

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