Question:

Hi All, October is the month you want to take off from work so you can fish for everything we have in the state. With the kids back in school and hunting season started there are less people fishing. Many trout streams pick up with the cooler fall temperatures. Flows are low and there are fall hatches. Brown trout are moving upstream to spawn.(Upper Sac, McCloud, Pit, Hat Creek, Fall River, East Carson, East Walker….) Lakes are cooling off so the trout are coming back to the surface to feed up for winter. ( Davis, Frenchmans,Almanor, Eagle, Crowley….) There are steelhead and salmon in all the rivers open to the ocean. (Klamath, Trinity, Lower Sac, Lower Feather, Lower Yuba, Lower American….) The stripers are schooling in the Sacramento Delta and the black bass have become active with the cooler water temps of fall. I guess the only fisheries that is not going in the fall is the American shad ? Try to plan a good trip this October so you can enjoy some good fly fishing. With the cooler temps you can fish all day too. If you need help planning a good trip or need the name of a good FF guide just let me know. It is pretty hard to have a bad trip in October in California. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com Toll free USA 1-800-400-0359

Response:

It is pretty hard to have a bad trip in October in California.

If this was from *anywhere* but CA, it wouldn’t have been near as funny. <g — TL, Tim

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Question:

Whom’s Never read or heard that one before!

That’s the sound of things going right by him. — Charlie…

Response:

On the way home from some errands, I stopped in at a local pawn shop. I like pawn shops and have purchased quite a few things from them in the past. They strangely, had a very large assortment of boxes of fly tying hooks in various sizes, styles and manufacturers in a large bag. After some haggling, I purchased them. There were about forty boxes of hooks. Some boxes had a couple hundred hooks and some as few as twenty or so. Lots of hooks. It was a collection made over time with a wide range of manufacturers: TMC, Dai Rikki, DaiChi, Mustad, Partridge, Tiemco, and a couple others. I decided to try and consolidate these hooks with the hooks I already had on hand so I wouldn’t have some many boxes of hooks. I thought it would be easy, for example a size 12 standard dry will be the same, or at least very close, for all manufacturers. Not even close. Even comparing hooks that were the same in terms of size, wire weight, shaft length, bend style etc., the differences were striking. The thing that was most enlightening to me was the difference between the sizes among the different manufacturers. I always thought that hook size was standardized and was based on the hook gap. This doesn’t seem to be so. For example, there was a size 22 hook from one manufacturer that had the same hook gape as an 18 from a different manufacturer, even though the styles were identical. Length of shaft and wire weight also varied widely among the manufacturers even with the same description. This is something I should have noticed in my years of tying but until I directly compared various manufacturers’ hooks to each other, I didn’t notice it. It seems that the differences between the manufacturers’ hooks was most pronounced in the smaller sized hooks. I was disappointed that the pawnshop didn’t have any of the person that pawned the hooks, tackle or fly tying materials. I did get a few other things in the bag with the hooks. Most of it was junk but I did get several carded and snelled Pott’s Hand Woven Hair Flies. Since there was a discussion on them recently I scanned them and posted them to ABPF. Willi

Response:

[snipped] I was disappointed that the pawnshop didn’t have any of the person that pawned the hooks, tackle or fly tying materials.

Apparently, the broker wouldn’t meet his price. Maybe he wasn’t quality material? /daytripper (Wondering what you’d tie up with a piece of "deadbeat"

Response:

[snipped] I was disappointed that the pawnshop didn’t have any of the person that pawned the hooks, tackle or fly tying materials. Apparently, the broker wouldn’t meet his price. Maybe he wasn’t quality material? /daytripper (Wondering what you’d tie up with a piece of "deadbeat"

A Ginkles Special…..(?) TC, R

Response:

[snipped] I was disappointed that the pawnshop didn’t have any of the person that pawned the hooks, tackle or fly tying materials. Apparently, the broker wouldn’t meet his price. Maybe he wasn’t quality material?

I was thinking he must be used to pretty tough pawn shops. <g — Charlie…

Response:

[snipped] I was disappointed that the pawnshop didn’t have any of the person that pawned the hooks, tackle or fly tying materials.

Odd, I heard they invariably ask for an arm and a leg. TL MC

Response:

  There were about forty boxes of hooks. Some boxes had a couple hundred hooks and some as few as twenty or so. Lots of hooks. It was a collection made over time with a wide range of manufacturers: TMC, Dai Rikki, DaiChi, Mustad, Partridge, Tiemco, and a couple others. I decided to try and consolidate these hooks with the hooks I already had on hand so I wouldn’t have some many boxes of hooks. I thought it would be easy, for example a size 12 standard dry will be the same, or at least very close, for all manufacturers. Not even close.

    I keep my hooks the drawer of an old dresser. For the most part, they are still in the original packaging, so there are several hundred packages and maybe fifteen different types of packages. The drawer is usually a mess and it’s quite difficult to find what I’m looking for, even though I periodically tidy everything up and arrange them according to size and style. (It seems like it only stays tidy for a week or so)This mess is to blame for a huge amount of duplication, in that I frequently buy hooks I thought I was out of, only to later find out I had a couple hundred left. Anyhow, last weekend I figured I’d get everything organized, so I went out and bout a bunch of Spirit River 21 compartment storage containers. I carried all of my hooks down to the dining room table and laboriously arranged them by type and size, with the intention of dumping different brands of the same size/type in the same compartment. I ran up against the same problem Willi described, and decided to just forget about it.     Willi- do you want to swap some hook containers for hooks? I can bring them by tomorrow.

Response:

I was disappointed that the pawnshop didn’t have any of the person that pawned the hooks, tackle or fly tying materials.

It was interesting the way you worded that – what part of the body did you want to haggle for ? Well, that is a sad situation you point out.  How are we supposed to figure out what someone means when they say the fish are taking size 22 BWOs?

Response:

I dunno Willi. Gaining from someone else’s misfortune would seem to me to be bad fishing mojo….and looking for more gain in the form of some destitute brother of the angle’s hocked hackles would be courting skunking, or worse. Your best bet would be to give them all away to a kid and replace them immediately at full price. Your pal, — TBone Walker The Halfordian Golfer

Response:

I dunno Willi. Gaining from someone else’s misfortune would seem to me to be bad fishing mojo….and looking for more gain in the form of some destitute brother of the angle’s hocked hackles would be courting skunking, or worse. Your best bet would be to give them all away to a kid and replace them immediately at full price.

Just shi…er, pull that out of your ass, did ya…? HTH, R

Response:

 It seems that the differences between the manufacturers’ hooks was most pronounced in the smaller sized hooks.

I noticed this when looking to buy some 24’s for griffith gnats. The shop had Tiemco 24’s that were definitely bigger than Mustad 22’s. IIRC the hook gaps were the same, but the shaft on the Tiemco 24’s was longer (I could have the 2 manufacturers reversed, though). I thought it strange, but having worked in software standards I know the slippery slope of what a ’standard’ is Rob

Response:

[snipped] I was disappointed that the pawnshop didn’t have any of the person that pawned the hooks, tackle or fly tying materials. Apparently, the broker wouldn’t meet his price. Maybe he wasn’t quality material?

Oops. That didn’t come out too well. I’m not a dealer, or user, of used body parts. That’s the stuff of cyberpunk science fiction. Willi

Response:

 It seems that the differences between the manufacturers’ hooks was most pronounced in the smaller sized hooks. I noticed this when looking to buy some 24’s for griffith gnats. The shop had Tiemco 24’s that were definitely bigger than Mustad 22’s. IIRC the hook gaps were the same, but the shaft on the Tiemco 24’s was longer (I could have the 2 manufacturers reversed, though). I thought it strange, but having worked in software standards I know the slippery slope of what a ’standard’ is Rob

And WHO (?) or Whom’s Standard should it be you compare with Rob? — George Gehrke  

Question:

In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup.  This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.)  I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since.  It’s here merely as an FYI.  However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post.  end of my msg. After some informal discussions in private email with a few regulars here, I have decided the time has come to request a full Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) against the most obvious and antagonistic trolls in [newsgroup]. This UIP is, of course, fully voluntary; each of you is encouraged to do your own thinking and follow your own conscience on this matter. However, I am convinced that a coordinated UIP is the surest way to restore a higher signal:noise ratio to this group. What do I mean by "ignore?"  It goes beyond killfiling, or resisting the impulse to reply to outrageous or inflammatory statements.  We must take the next steps, as well:  We must not even mention these trolls in passing, in humor, or in contempt.  We must not mention them *at all*.  In a properly executed UIP, the recipients of that UIP essentially cease to exist, even as a memory, except possibly insofar as the data packets carrying their unread posts faintly rattle around the network.  They cease to exist.  The group merely goes on about its business as if the trolls never showed up. Who are the trolls in question?  In the spirit of the UIP, I would prefer not to name names.  However — and I speak just for myself here — I would be less than honest not to name [our pest] as the prime example and motivator behind this effort.  Most of you are probably well acquainted with [their] favored techniques.  They include the making of allusions to a hostile old guard, or "clique," in this group; repeated complaints about smear tactics being used by their adversaries; a simultaneous plea to "just talk [hobby]" while continuing to engage in inflammatory accusations unrelated to [hobby]; and quickly embracing certain unpopular (but not trollish) contributors to the group as a way of demonstrating "mob mentality" among those who dislike those contributors. Other trolls might have their own methods.  My belief is that anyone who shows up making inflammatory statements with the apparent intent of drawing attention to himself is probably a troll.  There are others, besides [our pest], who are on my personal list, but I won’t mention them here.  The point is that I encourage you always to ignore trolls as completely as possible.  (My intent, btw, is for this to be my last ever mention of [our pest], in [newsgroup].) Finally, to make this a coordinated effort, I would like for anyone who agrees to participate in this UIP to followup to this post, quote only the paragraph that follows, and write, "I agree," where others can clearly see it.  (You may wish to add specific further comment after that, as I have.)  This henceforth will be referred to as the "2002 RSG Pledge."  If you agree to it, prepare to get grief from me if you break it!  :)  But remember: I respect that the degree to which you participate in this is entirely your decision.  Some of you may prefer to silently participate without publicly embracing the pledge.  I respect that choice, too. —cut here if you agree— "In the interest of preserving the usefulness of [newsgroup] as a forum for discussion of the game as well as a place for friends to affiliate in a collegial manner, I agree not to respond in [newsgroup] to any posts made seemingly solely to disrupt that atmosphere, regardless of their inflammatory or even defamatory nature. Further, I agree that those who habitually post in such a fashion are not worthy of any discussion or even mention in [newsgroup], and that therefore I will not make any specific mention of any of these individuals in any post to this newsgroup."

Response:

Hey, Fishreeler, I’ll see you at Penns.  I will show you a lovely stretch of water called Frank’s Pool, found by your friend Frank Reid.  Of course, Peter Charles and I cleaned out the pool before Frank could land a fish, but that’s another story.  And, much to the disgust of other roffians, I’ll make a nympher out of you.  <g Dave

Response:

     As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World.

Believe it or not, that is sometimes the exact perspective needed.   Your early experiences and lessons learned can be valuable advice to another just staring out.   Not everybody here is an expert, nor is everyone who comes through the door.   Even the jaded and experienced will take joy in your progress.   Post what you know, what you learn, what you experience.   It’s as valuable and welcome here as any of the esoteric baloney the experts post. Welcome to the nuthouse. Joe F.

Response:

fishreeler welcome! Look, as long as you avoid words like "meniscus" and the "the Kreh Effect" [  : - ) ], and try not to blatantly sell things [  ]. you can pretty much say what you want without fear of too much in the way of reprisals.  Most of the group is interested in discussions relating to our mutual interest in fly fishing.  I personally have never been flamed for asking a dumb question, and I think that if you ask  begineer type questions that are interpreted as sincere you’ll be fine.  Periodically, someone will take umbrage to a question if they believe there is some ulterior motive to the question- like a potential spammer trying to get a sales op for instance. I butted in to my first clave at Ennis 2 years ago after being a lurker for a only a few months.  Met some great people with a wide variety of fishing, and other, experiences.  I believe this is the real fun of this group.  I can wander down to the local fly shop and BS about fishing the Blackfoot whenever I want- but to hear about North Carolina, or the San Juan, or Wisconsin is pretty interesting- to me.  The claves are fun too because you can put a name to a face and a real person and learn something from some damn fine fisherman – sometimes even fishing related stuff. As with all groups, there is a tremendous variety of knowledge and experience present.  Take advantage, have fun, and be responsible about what you post. john

Response:

Ken,      I would hope that all who read my post understood that I took no sides in the matter. I was just stating my personal opinion on the whole matter as the new guy. Being that everyone has been in the realm of ROFF for a while, I believed that maybe, just maybe, my opinion would breath a breathe of fresh air into the room.      There are no sides for me, you enjoy fishing, I enjoy fishing, everyone in here enjoys fishing. I say that that puts me on the winning team overall. I may not be as eloquant in writing in my posts as others, but nonetheless, the point is given.      Thanks for the reply, and I cant wait to go to Penns! Fishreeler——<< "Danno Mattice"

Response:

Fishreeler?  Strange name. It’s easy to not get involved in flame wars – if somebody flames you, walk away.  If somebody really pisses you off, killfile ‘em. Make sure Frank brings a warm sleeping bag this year, but tell him to leave the tutu at home.  You’ll have fun at Penns… –Stan

Hmmmm!!! Frank never told me about that. But I could always find a soft tree out by the creek and fall asleep by the sounds of the water instead of listening to the rustling of a tutu. Fishreeler came about when I was trying to find a screen name on AOL. That is when I was with AOL. So, I have adopted the name as my own now. Seems that all you other fisherman and women took all the good names at the time. However, I kinda like the name and it grows on me. Not to say that I am an expert, but have been doing it for a while. Thanks to all for the warm reception. Fishreeler—–<< Danno Mattice "Cant think of anything quippy to put at the end of my post yet, I havent seasoned enough in ROFF yet"

Response:

… I was just stating my personal opinion on the whole matter as the new guy.

As a new guy, your opinions on "the whole matter" are not likely to be well received, inasmuch as they’re not only negative but uninformed. Your opinions and observations about our shared avocation, on the other hand, are most welcome and may very well be a breath of fresh air for some. See you on the stream. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post,     As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else. And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info.

And another note to new readers.  You do NOT have to read rdean’s posts in their entirety.  In fact, none of us have.

Response:

<whole buncha stuff snipped      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. Fishreeler?  Strange name.

made me think of trolling…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post,     As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else. And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info. And another note to new readers.  You do NOT have to read rdean’s posts in their entirety.  In fact, none of us have.

Something I am not only grateful for, but that I count on and plan for, I assure you.  That way, I can say any damned thing I wish – Jeff C. secretly yearns for TBone’s rather unusual sex life, for example – and by the time those who read only various parts attempt to get their stories straight, no one can remember what it was that I claimed or denied to have said… TC, R …that’s my story and I’m sticking to it…unless you can prove otherwise, in which case, google made a mistake…

Response:

To George’s Post,     As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering.

First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else.   And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info.  Where I have addressed "you," it’s more addressing the point raised than _you_ specifically, but as your post inspired it, take what you will from it, too.  It’s all IMO, YMMV. As to Ginkles, read his posts and responses to and regarding Frank Church and the fly swap, if none other, to see just a portion of what he is all about.  I rarely advise others against anyone, preferring to allow them to discover and choose for themselves, but regarding Ginkles, I’ll make an exception.  However, if you do choose to befriend him, I’d not hold that decision against you. That said, a few things, all IMO and, of course, YMMV:  First, you seem to be lumping every slight you may have observed, real and what you perceive as real, into the same pile, and IMO, that’s not correct. Of course, there are, um, (generally good-natured) debates where the language may get heated and sarcastic, but likely as not, the apparent "combatants" would drop the debate and go fishing, drinking, whatever together at that very second were it possible.  That is a far cry from attacks by and on Ginkles and others who do or attempt to do real damage.  FWIW, there are only two people, on all of ROFF, past and present, who I would not associate with, Ginkles being one.  As I’ve said it publicly before, so I feel nothing wrong in restating the obvious.  The other, who shall go unnamed, I’d be willing to give the benefit of the doubt should we ever be faced with that situation as the "rift" is, IMO, strictly a difference in personality, not me thinking them as being truly warped.  I suspect that most, if not all, here on ROFF would say a very similar thing. Secondly, any of the, er, debating that takes place is strictly voluntary, and I’ve not seen anyone "attacked" as some seem to imply without the "attackee" getting involved, either by diving in, suggesting that those doing so are wrong, offering opinions on why they are wrong, tips on how to be right, etc.  The best rule on these "debates" is to get in or stay out, because wading in the shallows is still in the water.  If you do wade in the shallows and still get bit, remember that damned little of it is personal, and don’t take it as such. This brings us to a cause of some real problems – getting personal. Don’t do it.  What I mean is going beyond the person on ROFF.  No family members, job/career, etc. unless you are DAMNED sure of what you are doing and willing to deal with the sometimes-dire consequences of making a mistake.  For example, there are several lawyers here, and while a general humorous remark about lawyers is likely OK, "jokingly" accusing one of malpractice is likely gonna get your head torn off, and rightfully so.     As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy.

Then you’d never post anything, and that’s a pity.  There will _always_ be someone more knowledgable than _everyone_ , and they may or may not even participate on ROFF.  So who cares?  99.99 percent of FF’ing and the related info, on or off ROFF, is opinion, guesses, observations, and other highly subjective things.  Heck, the rankest newbie might be the only one in a group with 100 experienced FF’ers to guess, opine, observe, etc., correctly.  As to asking questions, of course, sometimes, someone will have a bad day, not had sex with their wife, been forced to have sex with their wife, gotten up on the wrong side of the bed, or a host of other things that leads to teeing up on someone for no apparent reason.  That ain’t ROFF, USENET, or anything computer-specific, that’s life, and if _that_ is what worries a "newbie," they are screwed before they start.  If you take that sort of thing personally, IMO, ROFF ain’t the problem.   So ask away, and if someone tees up, either ignore it or give it back in spades, but remember that pissing and moaning about it will just invite more.  Again, that isn’t ROFF-specific, that’s life.  As to ROFF itself, go back and look through some threads – when it does happen, it isn’t the "feeding frenzy" some imply, it’s generally one person who, for whatever reason, got their back up, while others either gave the requested info or called the person on their conduct (or both). Which brings us to the next tip: there is a "pecking order," and again, this isn’t ROFF-specific.  There is no real "clique" in that newcomers are excluded simply for being newcomers, but there is a core of people who have been around awhile.  People who have been around awhile do develop a sort of "seniority," most come to "know" each other over the years, and many have actually met or have met in a "7 degrees of separation"-kinda way, and so, can get away with personal liberties, such as chastising, that newcomers (An aside – ya know, I think I like "newcomer" more than "newbie") cannot expect to be able to do.  And yet again, this factor isn’t ROFF-specific, you’ll find it on just about any NG, because that’s the way all of life seems to be. Remember that although this is, to a large extent, not a "face-to-face" medium, and that creates a new, and for some, odd, context.  There are people here who "know" each other, care about each other, know details that only friends would know, share things only friends would share, talk regularly as friends do, etc.  The only "new" thing about some of these friends is that they’ve never _all_ physically met.  But they are friends, nonetheless, and so, act just as two/several friends would act if in the same physical space as opposed to the same electronic space.  And just as with them being in the same physical space, a newcomer can’t expect to simply walk up and be treated as one who has a history with the group.  That doesn’t mean he can’t walk up and begin the process.  So, then, what’s stopping you, or any other potential new friend, from "walking" on up? I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field.

Fuck ‘em. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner.

Basically, other than the tackle differences, and the delivery of same, it’s all just attempting to fool fish with stuff that, amazingly, actually manages to sometimes fool them.  Nobody lives or dies based on FF’ing knowledge, so a newcomer is as welcome to be wrong as the rest. A bunch of good stuff snipped, because it didn’t seem to warrant comment. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Respectfully submitted,

Response:

 Lying, cheating or stealing for personal benefit I can understand, if not respect.  These characters, though…. it’s like cheating yourself.  It’s like inflicting self-abuse. It defies understanding.

These are the kind of people who cheat at solitaire and then are happy that they won.  Weird. — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

fishreeler, i’m looking forward to wetting a line with you in may. fer gawd’s sake, don’t take wading lesson’s from frank <g –waldo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post,      As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering.      As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy. I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner. However, I thought that there are always those who would be out there that enjoy spoilling it for others who love the sport so much. To make themselves inferior of that person. Somehow they get grattification out of making others miserable, and if they succeed, it is a good days work.      I know that most people in this arena are here out of love and respect for the art of fly fishing and tying. Otherwise, if they did not get that simple pleasure of just talking about it, they wouldnt be here. We wouldnt be here. Right?      I feel that I have more of a love for the sport than a disgust for those who would try to spoil it for me. Therefore, I will be around for a while with this group and I will enjoy the information that is passed here so that I can become a better fly fisherman, more informed and better equipped to go after the end result, getting out on the water and using what I have learned to catch fish.      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. I will probably be the newest newbie there too, but that doesnt matter. I know that there will be some fine fisherman there who will be more than happy to take me under their wing and teach me what I came there for. It will be a total learning experience for me and I am very excited. I wish that we were in April making final preperations. They all come together in a brotherhood out of the goodness and simplicity of just getting back to the water. A migration, just as with the trout. This is the impression that I get from Frank.      In final, we must all take the good with the bad, and make our own decisions if that is the type of person that we would want to hang with, or even talk with. Noone is any different than the next person, only in perception from the recipient of the criticism or the person who dishes it out. I know that I for one have my own opinions on certain people in here. Some are fishing Gods, and others are fishing Dogs. I know who I will be talking to.       THis is all in my own opinion, I just felt, that as the newbie here, I would get my opinion in while I can. Fishing is a learning experience for me, however, life has been with me for much longer.      Thank you both for posting what you did. I know that I feel much better about being here, especially when most of you know how I feel.      Thank you very much, once again. Bravo! Respectfully submitted,

– Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

Response:

To George’s Post,      As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. …      Thank you both for posting what you did. …

Oh yeah, chiming in on a hypocritical screed from the village idiot is the perfect way to win friends and influence people around here. Looking forward to meeting you at Penns. You’ll find this place a lot more entertaining when you put some real faces with the screen names. The flyfishing info itself around here is unmatched anywhere I’ve ever seen, it’s a very rare case when a politely posed (and I mean that in the context of netiquette) query goes unanswered. The "entertainment" is admittedly an "acquired taste". Hang in there and wait til after Penns before going all judgmental on us. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

<whole buncha stuff snipped      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed.

Fishreeler?  Strange name. It’s easy to not get involved in flame wars – if somebody flames you, walk away.  If somebody really pisses you off, killfile ‘em. Make sure Frank brings a warm sleeping bag this year, but tell him to leave the tutu at home.  You’ll have fun at Penns… –Stan

Response:

To George’s Post,

<newbie’s views snipped for brevity Respectfully submitted,

   Dan, hang in with us.  It not all pissin’ into to wind.  This is a Jeckyl and Hyde kinda place, one moment its the Weakest Link on Jerry Springer and the next its linking arms with Barney the Purple Sauropod, singing Kum By Ya while we try to conjure the spirits of Lee Wulff and the Grand Dame.    As I told you this a.m.  Post some trip reports, ask a few salient questions and hang on for the ride.  Don’t be afraid to get flamed. An insult is like a shot of scotch, it only affects you if you accept it.    You will be welcome at the clave (hey, you don’t snore do you?). Oh, the things you will see; lawyers in horizontal striped longjohns, Pirates’ BVDs (best veiwed from a distance), flaming MBA’s juggling boxes (did I get that word order right?), druidic clavemeisters praying to the river Gods, old lech’es luring young mothers into the water for a back rub, naked coed volleyball teams and Amish strippers.     You will also see some of the best fishermen and fisherwomen (I’ve just used up my PC quota for the year) in the world.  Not only are they good at what they do, but they are great at teaching.  The Pirate and Makela on nymphing, Littleton on fly selection, Petah on streamers, Fleischman on cigars, and I’ve even heard that one or two folks can teach you about scotch.     By the way, the price for use of the spare bunk in my tent is a week’s supply of Yeungling.         Good luck and welcome to ROFF.                 Frank The Younger (and better looking) Reid

Response:

Lemme guess, Jeff. Was this over on RSG? I recall some real jewels over there. Wasn’t there some gal that made herself the self-appointed leader of the group. I may be wrong on that, but one things for sure. every circus has it’s own freaks.

Yes.  But coincidentally there is also a George there who has also spammed unashamedly, and trashed the reputation of his "business" (such as it is) virtually beyond repair.  He refused to see the wisdom of participating like a Walt, Bill, Brian, Al, etc. who all have enriched both their personal lives and their businesses, no doubt, at the same time.  Rather, he chose the path of the fool (he "chose poorly" to quote "IJ and the Last Crusade"), and suffered equally in both areas of his life.  It’s always fascinated me when someone chooses self-destruction.  Lying, cheating or stealing for personal benefit I can understand, if not respect.  These characters, though…. it’s like cheating yourself.  It’s like inflicting self-abuse. It defies understanding.

Response:

Lemme guess, Jeff. Was this over on RSG? I recall some real jewels over there. Wasn’t there some gal that made herself the self-appointed leader of the group. I may be wrong on that, but one things for sure. every circus has it’s own freaks.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup.  This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.)  I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since.  It’s here merely as an FYI.  However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post.  end of my msg. — After some informal discussions in private email with a few regulars here, I have decided the time has come to request a full Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) against the most obvious and antagonistic trolls in [newsgroup]. This UIP is, of course, fully voluntary; each of you is encouraged to do your own thinking and follow your own conscience on this matter. However, I am convinced that a coordinated UIP is the surest way to restore a higher signal:noise ratio to this group. What do I mean by "ignore?"  It goes beyond killfiling, or resisting the impulse to reply to outrageous or inflammatory statements.  We must take the next steps, as well:  We must not even mention these trolls in passing, in humor, or in contempt.  We must not mention them *at all*.  In a properly executed UIP, the recipients of that UIP essentially cease to exist, even as a memory, except possibly insofar as the data packets carrying their unread posts faintly rattle around the network.  They cease to exist.  The group merely goes on about its business as if the trolls never showed up. Who are the trolls in question?  In the spirit of the UIP, I would prefer not to name names.  However — and I speak just for myself here — I would be less than honest not to name [our pest] as the prime example and motivator behind this effort.  Most of you are probably well acquainted with [their] favored techniques.  They include the making of allusions to a hostile old guard, or "clique," in this group; repeated complaints about smear tactics being used by their adversaries; a simultaneous plea to "just talk [hobby]" while continuing to engage in inflammatory accusations unrelated to [hobby]; and quickly embracing certain unpopular (but not trollish) contributors to the group as a way of demonstrating "mob mentality" among those who dislike those contributors. Other trolls might have their own methods.  My belief is that anyone who shows up making inflammatory statements with the apparent intent of drawing attention to himself is probably a troll.  There are others, besides [our pest], who are on my personal list, but I won’t mention them here.  The point is that I encourage you always to ignore trolls as completely as possible.  (My intent, btw, is for this to be my last ever mention of [our pest], in [newsgroup].) Finally, to make this a coordinated effort, I would like for anyone who agrees to participate in this UIP to followup to this post, quote only the paragraph that follows, and write, "I agree," where others can clearly see it.  (You may wish to add specific further comment after that, as I have.)  This henceforth will be referred to as the "2002 RSG Pledge."  If you agree to it, prepare to get grief from me if you break it!  :)  But remember: I respect that the degree to which you participate in this is entirely your decision.  Some of you may prefer to silently participate without publicly embracing the pledge.  I respect that choice, too. —cut here if you agree— "In the interest of preserving the usefulness of [newsgroup] as a forum for discussion of the game as well as a place for friends to affiliate in a collegial manner, I agree not to respond in [newsgroup] to any posts made seemingly solely to disrupt that atmosphere, regardless of their inflammatory or even defamatory nature. Further, I agree that those who habitually post in such a fashion are not worthy of any discussion or even mention in [newsgroup], and that therefore I will not make any specific mention of any of these individuals in any post to this newsgroup."

Response:

To George’s Post,      As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering.      As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy. I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner. However, I thought that there are always those who would be out there that enjoy spoilling it for others who love the sport so much. To make themselves inferior of that person. Somehow they get grattification out of making others miserable, and if they succeed, it is a good days work.      I know that most people in this arena are here out of love and respect for the art of fly fishing and tying. Otherwise, if they did not get that simple pleasure of just talking about it, they wouldnt be here. We wouldnt be here. Right?      I feel that I have more of a love for the sport than a disgust for those who would try to spoil it for me. Therefore, I will be around for a while with this group and I will enjoy the information that is passed here so that I can become a better fly fisherman, more informed and better equipped to go after the end result, getting out on the water and using what I have learned to catch fish.      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. I will probably be the newest newbie there too, but that doesnt matter. I know that there will be some fine fisherman there who will be more than happy to take me under their wing and teach me what I came there for. It will be a total learning experience for me and I am very excited. I wish that we were in April making final preperations. They all come together in a brotherhood out of the goodness and simplicity of just getting back to the water. A migration, just as with the trout. This is the impression that I get from Frank.      In final, we must all take the good with the bad, and make our own decisions if that is the type of person that we would want to hang with, or even talk with. Noone is any different than the next person, only in perception from the recipient of the criticism or the person who dishes it out. I know that I for one have my own opinions on certain people in here. Some are fishing Gods, and others are fishing Dogs. I know who I will be talking to.       THis is all in my own opinion, I just felt, that as the newbie here, I would get my opinion in while I can. Fishing is a learning experience for me, however, life has been with me for much longer.      Thank you both for posting what you did. I know that I feel much better about being here, especially when most of you know how I feel.      Thank you very much, once again. Bravo! Respectfully submitted,

Response:

It simply takes discipline   Peter

I’m on your side Pete.  But for Pete’s sake, Pete, you know most of these guys smoke and drink and quit doing anything takes real discipline, which they don’t have . . . so that thesis goes right down the toilet.  These guys just don’t have will power. Thing is Pete, I’m more addictive than cigarettes, alcohol, or even women.   Life sucks, but it sure is better with you in it Pete. Hang tough padre, keep up the good ideas; George Please note the equal opprotunity response I returned to you? You’re welcome Pete.

Response:

So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf?  Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls.  Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll.  He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away.  He probably increased his posting.  That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.

I would expect that anyone who indulges in this behaviour and is subjected to this consequence, would escalate his/her trolling in an effort to break the discipline of the group.  If the group cracks, things go back to normal.  If group discipline holds, the posts *will* disappear.  People who indulge in this behaviour abhor silence. It simply takes discipline and the willingness to stick with it over the long haul.  If some people continue to indulge the troll for their personal enjoyment or out of a warped sense of fair play, they weaken the effect.  Whether a diminished chorus would remain sufficient amusement for the troll, is difficult to say.  100% compliance is a practical impossibility and it is not needed.  The group replies have to drop below the threshold of the individual’s need for attention. Once that need is not being met at a sufficient level, the individual will move one. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Well, I choose to go to tools, options, send and uncheck the send immediately box. this allows me to respond vigorously, vent my feelings and get a load off my mind. then the next day I can re-read the stuff in my outbox and see if I still want to send it… Is something like that what you are talking about Jeff…..? john

Response:

So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf?  Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls.  Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll.  He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away.  He probably increased his posting.  That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.

Frankly Stan, with a little cooperation of mature debating and without having a need to throw rocks, it is easy to agree with you because you just said it better than I ever could. As I had posted, most sincerely to Jeff’s opinion, I’m only a barometer of Roff.  I had explained so many times, talk nice to me and we and many others will talk nice to you.  I am surprised about rec.sports.golf has the same problem because personally, I cannot suffer fools and I see you are the same because you are not the foolish kind nor are you in roff to prove anything, as I am.  I just happen to be a fighter.  I may not be tactful because that only works with gentlemen.   I believe this will all tone down once roff realizes that darwinian isn’t a license to act like the wild west.  I, like you enjoy learning new things and roff does have some mighty smart people in it.  It also behooves many of my email determines how some college graduates who are now in the white collar trades can lose their cool so quickly in roff with each other and so often? For sake of good order, it would make no difference in roff if I left, which I did for four weeks recently.  Roff STILL found others to feed upon and there is no denying this fact.  Roff is like the snake that always has to bite someone because it is its nature.  That old saying is in fact very true as it applies to this group in general. I have observed that on the side, there are men in roff which I regard as top drawer.  That they must try and communicate in such a beehive of raging maniacs of false, insulted sensibilities (or any other excuse they deem fit) to exposes their frustrations, short of hitting on their wives or daughters, is frankly . . . so amazing!  Roff, in so many ways is but the mirror of those who deal daily with bad bosses, supervisors, duel personalities in the social scheme of things that they come to roff to "dump on anyone" they can, just to get even.  Frankly, what I don’t know about Roffian behavior and why people such as Ken Fortenberry, David LaCourse, and his ilk like Charlie Choc behave as they do is much greater than any of us know.  Which means, they can’t help being the way they are!  They are just pissed at the world in general. Frankly, I’m really a very funny guy in person and I have a great sense of humor Stan.  Venting hostilities with humor would serve a good many in roff a lot better then swearing at each other.  There is a knack at putting down anyone cleverly, if that is their need but it is my opinion it takes a better man to lift someone’s spirits rather than jumping on a Newbies just to show off one’s intellectual dominance. I have always said that when you put two people in a room, as in roff, one mind will always try and dominate the other.  When it comes to two gentlemen who respect each other, that is seldom the case.  They simply enjoy talking to each other.  Roff has forgotten how to enjoy talking with each other. I notice the fondness in general of the folk in North Carolina have for each other and it is gentle jousting but it is intended in friendship. Outside that area, it doesn’t generally extend to the west coast, have you noticed?  Those who play together get along better together has merit and that is why I’ve always thought a Conclave would be a good idea and they have proven to be just that. Now then, since I’m on a roll here, I should explain that the reason I have yet to want to attend any Conclave is I don’t believe in trying to be comfortable with anyone that in person, they smile at each other as if they never attacked each other then go home and be so vicious with each other when they are gone.  This Jeckle/Hyde persona just doesn’t wash with me.  It is  two faced, it is cowardly, and it doesn’t allow my nature to trust such people away and/or in person.  A man should be exactly as he seems here as he should be in person.  Understanding, reason, giving allowances, benefit of the doubt, all go a long ways. Certain Roffians could care less how reasonable someone tries to be with them.  They don’t want that.  They want the chaos to continue and they will do anything to keep it going. Roff has some professional trollers who’s job it is to influence public opinion and I will leave it at that.  They have that writing style that points to them like a flashing red light. They are somewhat knowledgeable but they are also totally predictable.   Over a good period of time Stan, we all get a sense of where we want to be in Roff.  I know there are several hundred fly fishing people who watch and read roff periodically and they leave in disgust.  They leave and won’t post not because they did anything disgusting, but because Roff is its own best enemy.  People want to visit friendly people, and when ROFF as a whole allows the type of personal demeaning behavior of people like Ken Fortenberry, or any of the others that talk the same way to others to continue, it simply is not the place they want to be.  Roff is just poorer for it and it behooves me and many others how so many in roff are fearful of correcting what they think are their friends? Possibly, you don’t agree Stan, but you’ve written me in private before and your messages have always been on a high plain and enjoyable.  Why can’t all the others talk to each other with the same respect and interest?  Take me out of the picture, the banter never stops.  It is time to stand up and be counted and I sure know I can stand up as reasonable as anyone else in roff. As they will say in Utah . . . "let the games begin." Just don’t change Stan, because I sure haven’t. ; ) Your pal, George Gehrke "the house pest"

Response:

So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf?  Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls.  Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll.  He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away.  He probably increased his posting.  That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.

Response:

In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup.  This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.)  I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since.  It’s here merely as an FYI.  However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post.  end of my msg.

You know Jeff?  This is so full on nonsense I can’t believe you actually believe this stuff?  Case in point. Just recently, a gentleman asked a question about whether he should weight his nymphs or not.  To the last man in ROFF, EVERYONE said yes. Okay.  Fine and good. I Post in Roff my opinions and experiences gathered in over 50 years in fly fishing partner.  I was the only one to say, "No, you don’t want to do that," and I proceeded to explain the "why of it." Seems, according to the responses to "George’s Post" how hard everyone tried to tear the years of experience I had with Nymphing, apart.  Now then, do you care to deny this? I wrote a very intelligent, factual, informative piece in which I’d wager my life upon, everyone had received "food for thought," because they never heard this "stuff" before.  Do you care to deny this also? Just because I am the mirror of ROFF, doesn’t mean I’m a Village Idiot at all. The idiots are those who stoop to lower levels because "they didn’t think about or know what I know" and it galls them to listen to a winner.  Big dang deal.  Ask me if I care? All you guys should realize I haven’t changed one bit since the first day I arrived to help out in Roff.  What you all haven’t learned is that I’m my own man.  You talk to me nasty and like the mirror I am, you will get back exactly the same in return.  The worse you give the same about you receive.  Haven’t any of you learned this yet?  You talk nice to me and others and you get exactly the same in return.  But you know what? A lot of you are too stupid to have figured this out in several years now. LaCourse goes back and pulls out a nasty piece of response but he doesn’t bring up the post it was responding to, does he.  Roff’s whole history, is one of the Key Board Colt .45  The great equalizer.  So if some of you will start reading this post with a little open mindedness, you might get insight not into me so much as much as you will about yourselves.   Case in point:  Every one of you go back and match YOUR POSTS to me. The good get good and serious responses.  The Ugly get slapped right back in the face.  Simple as that. Now then, I will admit to past "trolls, or baiting roff," which isn’t hard to do, but I haven’t done that for a while.  When I do this, I put in this:  ; ) cast . . . mend, etc. and this some of you know is my way of stirring some fun up, but I can’t remember ever starting something in a hateful or mean manner.  Outside that, I’m the same "George the Fly Fisherman" you have always known. The problem with ROFF is never have I seen the truth exploited as well where "Familiarity Breeds Contempt."  Some of you would do well to stop and read this carefully because I’m not pulling any punches with you now.  I have had many well know fly fishermen, and all of you know I am close to many of them, who have said to me . . . "I have seen what a bunch of jerks are in Roff George and if I were to come there to help, sooner or later they would start the same things with me."  Well, this is TRUE!  Not all, those who have ever piled upon my back are the same ones that would do it to others, no matter what the famous fly fisherman was.  Why?  Because deep down, some of you bastards have an insatiable need to demean people who have made it up the ladder of success. I see the same thing happen yearly with the qualified gentry of fly fishing.  One was in a bar having evening cocktails with me.  Before long, our table was filled with fly fishermen horning in.  They weren’t invited to join us, but it comes with the territory.  So here I am, letting you guys in on what goes through our heads because we ARE human.  We don’t say anything, and soon all the chairs are full, others are pulled up and then there is a standing crowd.  It isn’t long, someone makes a wise crack to my well known friend, where upon, without comment . . . (not much) he gets up and quietly leave for his room. I do the same. Why is it, some of you guys simply are jerks?  This isn’t MY opinion but it is the common thread I receive from all around this world about YOU GUYS!  I didn’t say, "about me," but YOU GUYS!   A bunch of you think you’re righteous because you have a common bond of being a bunch of junk yard dogs who dare anyone to come in here and invade your domain.  This is nonsense. There is a lot of talent watching your every thread and I’m talking fly fishing talent that would bury Roff!  BURY IT!  They don’t come here because they hate your guts and that is the truth.  However; these same people are writing me behind your back saying one common thing.  "Hang in there George.  Don’t quit.  I love everything you write regarding fly fishing, etc."  Now this is the truth.  You Sludge Slugs of Roff can feed on your own hateful nature, fill your egos by trying to demean others and as I said before, you really are only demeaning yourselves. What you see with me is what you’re going to get.   I’m not going anywhere gentlemen.  I’m staying right here.  If you don’t want to read my stuff, go party somewhere else because this is "MY SANDBOX" and your here talking to me because you’re invited.  What I mean by that is, you talk nice to me and if I respond, that is the invite.   That’s the way its going to be.  Take it or leave it, and frankly I’d prefer if some of you simply leave it because you do nothing but waste good air. So you do have a choice.     George Gehrke "Fly Fisherman" http://www.gink.com A Site full of bastards

Response:

Question:

Hey Louie, How about a Labrador Clave in 2003?

I’ve been dreaming of going to Labrador for years now, and I have made unfirm plans to do it in 2002 or 2003 – need that long to save up the $3000 for a week. My goal was to fish for Arctic Char, the hell with the brook trout. but a clave? hmmm…. Flyfish

Response:

I’ve been dreaming of going to Labrador for years now, …

Me too, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before I spend one, red US penny (that’s $49.95 Canadian) in a province that requires non-residents to have a guide. I don’t mind hiring a guide for a day or two or paying a rather substantial amount for a fishing license, but I’ll be damned if I’ll travel to fish somewhere where I can’t wet a line by myself. My goal was to fish for Arctic Char, the hell with the brook trout.

I suppose that’s because you live in Maine, but for me a 6 lb brookie would be a trophy of a lifetime. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout?? Tim Lysyk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been dreaming of going to Labrador for years now, … Me too, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before I spend one, red US penny (that’s $49.95 Canadian) in a province that requires non-residents to have a guide. I don’t mind hiring a guide for a day or two or paying a rather substantial amount for a fishing license, but I’ll be damned if I’ll travel to fish somewhere where I can’t wet a line by myself. My goal was to fish for Arctic Char, the hell with the brook trout. I suppose that’s because you live in Maine, but for me a 6 lb brookie would be a trophy of a lifetime. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout??

That sounds like New Brunswick. Newfoundland/Labrador requires guides for non-residents all the time and everywhere except right next to the highway on the Churchill River if I’m not mistaken. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Guys;   If Ken F. doesn’t like the "guide" idea–and I certainly agree–how about going to northern Quebec?. Same general area–just across the border–and Quebec doesn’t require "guides". I’m going to fish the Caniapisceau this summer–without guides. I’ve fished in Newfoundland with "guides"–and if you’ve ever flyfished there–you KNOW why I’ve put the word "guides" in quotes. The "guides" are simply "babysitters" so the sport won’t get lost. They do absolutely nothing that the word guide means to us. This is –to put it rather bluntly–a way to get foreigners to pay welfare for those "guides".    Dave M

Response:

Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout??

Here’s the (somewhat hard to find) URL, Tim; http://www.gov.nf.ca/forest/wildlife/licences/information.htm#Fishing To hell with the Newfies, I’ll never fish Labrador till these laws are changed, even at the risk of cutting my nose off to spite my face. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Talk about confusing regulations. I remembered something about being able to fish without a guide, but had forgotten about the part that limited you to within 800 m of a provincial highway. A number of years ago my wife and I had a pair of free airplane tickets. We comnsidered going to Nfld. to fish, but got turned off by the regulations. We went to Victoria instead. Tim Lysyk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout?? Here’s the (somewhat hard to find) URL, Tim; http://www.gov.nf.ca/forest/wildlife/licences/information.htm#Fishing To hell with the Newfies, I’ll never fish Labrador till these laws are changed, even at the risk of cutting my nose off to spite my face. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Tim Lysyk: Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout??

Labrador (Canada?) requires 1 guide for every two people above a certain lattitude.  Having fished in Labrador for the past five years, I can understand why they would have that rule.  I sure as hell would not be on the Atikonak River without a guide, even though I know the river well.  You can fish in Labrador without a guide as long as you stay within a certain distance (a mile?) of a road.  Things change very quickly — water level, temperature, rain to snow.  In the five years I have been going to Labrador, I know of 6 or 7 deaths — folks that got into trouble when they were alone.   I would be willing to set up something, a mini clave if ya wanna call it that. It would have to be for only 8 people, and would cost about $2700 for a week, plus air fare. Most lodges/outfitters only have room and facilities for 8 rods.  I would stay away from eastern Labrador, areas near Happy Valley, and concentrate on places in the north, central, or northeast.  There are a number of lodges/outfitters in these areas, and fishing is wonderful, be it for brookies, arctic char (limited water), pike or lake trout. Land locked salmon are also available later in the season (late Aug-Sept), or very early in the season (June).   Air fare from Boston is about $600. But, you can drive to Lab City/Wabush (western Labrador) in two days from Boston.  You would take a float plane (Otter or Beaver) to fly from Wabush to the lodge.  That flight is usually included in the price of your stay. Dave

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dnsmartel writes: If Ken F. doesn’t like the "guide" idea–and I certainly agree–how about going to northern Quebec?. Same general area–just across the border–and Quebec doesn’t require "guides". I’m going to fish the Caniapisceau this summer–without guides. I’ve fished in Newfoundland with "guides"–and if you’ve ever flyfished there–you KNOW why I’ve put the word "guides" in quotes. The "guides" are simply "babysitters" so the sport won’t get lost. They do absolutely nothing that the word guide means to us. This is –to put it rather bluntly–a way to get foreigners to pay welfare for those "guides".   Dave M

Not true of the Labrador guides I have used.  They are good boatsmen, outdoorsmen, and fishermen.  The difference between a good guide in Labrador and a bad one is the number of fish you catch.  Also, a good one will keep you out of trouble — one did just that with my grandson two years ago.  The water I fished was treacherous and even though I know that river very well (been going there for five years), I would not want to do it without a guide.   I believe you can fish in Canada below a certain lattitude without a guide. Friends of mine have done that and in the long run, they spent as much for food, gas, and air fare getting to their digs as I did going to a lodge with experienced guides.  And, I caught more and bigger fish.  Plus someone cooked for me, I had electricity, and indoor plumbing.  <g   Dave

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dnsmartel writes: … This is –to put it rather bluntly–a way to get foreigners to pay welfare for those "guides". Not true of the Labrador guides I have used. …  Also, a good one will keep you out of trouble — one did just that with my grandson two years ago.  The water I fished was treacherous and even though I know that river very well (been going there for five years), I would not want to do it without a guide. …

Bah. Dave M is right Louie. The Newfoundland/Labrador non-resident guide laws are not on the books to protect decrepit geezers and young teenagers. They are on the books to inject out-of-province dollars into a moribund economy. I don’t mind the bucks, I’d gladly pay whatever the province wants to charge for the opportunity to fish, but I really resent having to have a guide. — Ken Fortenberry

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I suppose that’s because you live in Maine, but for me a 6 lb brookie would be a trophy of a lifetime.

For me it would too. That said, as I understand it the Arctic Char is like a brook trout on steriods, kind of like the difference between a rainbow and a steelhead. I had a line on a set of camps that specialized in sea run char up there someplace, I’ll have to see if the guy comes back to the Maine Sportman’s show later this month as that was my intended trip Flyfish

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It would have to be for only 8 people, and would cost about $2700 for a week, plus air fare. Air fare from Boston is about $600.

That’s probably a couple of years fishing expenses for me. Willi

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Ken Fortenberry writes: Bah. Dave M is right Louie. The Newfoundland/Labrador non-resident guide laws are not on the books to protect decrepit geezers and young teenagers. They are on the books to inject out-of-province dollars into a moribund economy. I don’t mind the bucks, I’d gladly pay whatever the province wants to charge for the opportunity to fish, but I really resent having to have a guide. —

Oh, without a doubt it is to put dollars into the provincial cash register. Labrador is a very poor province.  But, even if it was legal to fish *without* a guide, I would still hire one.  So, now I’m a decrepit old geezer?  I love your liberal intolerance.   BTW, all the folks I know that died were young, healthy, fit, know-it-all fishermen.   Dave

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… So, now I’m a decrepit old geezer?  …

Now ? What do you mean "now" ? You’ve been a decrepit geezer since the Johnson administration. <pregnant pause The ANDREW Johnson administration ! <rimshot Luv ya, Louie — Ken Fortenberry

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BTW, all the folks I know that died were young, healthy, fit, know-it-all fishermen.

Dammit Louie!  I haven’t said anything in this thread so why are you bringing me into it?!?!?  I know you weren’t using the above to describe Ken, he hasn’t been young since the Nixon administration — Warren Findley

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I hate to reiterate, but once again I think this is a key word issue.  The key word in Dave’s post was "know-it-all".  That compound word or phase, if you please, certainly wouldn’t fit in your case warren, at least not in a sarcastic sense.  Just MMHO. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, all the folks I know that died were young, healthy, fit, know-it-all fishermen. Dammit Louie!  I haven’t said anything in this thread so why are you bringing me into it?!?!?  I know you weren’t using the above to describe Ken, he hasn’t been young since the Nixon administration — Warren Findley

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Ken Fortenberry writes: The ANDREW Johnson administration ! <rimshot Luv ya, Louie — Ken Fortenberry

I knew Andy, and you, sir, are not Andy. On a more serious note:  Each year when I returned to the Atikonak, I would hear stories about who got killed and how.  They were all Canadians, usually from Labrador.  They didn’t know  where they were going or what they were doing, and it cost them their lives.  You don’t have to be in your 60s with a couple of gimpy legs and no feeling in your feet to need a guide.  I understand your wanting to get away from it all and be on your own.  That’s fine in Maine, Michigan and Montana, but in Labrador it could get you killed.  Quickly. OG

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  I understand your wanting to get away from it all and be on your own.  That’s fine in Maine, Michigan and Montana, but in Labrador it could get you killed.  Quickly. OG

The same goes for Lenoir, NC and most other major cities. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

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I hate to reiterate, but once again I think this is a key word issue.  The key word in Dave’s post was "know-it-all".  That compound word or phase, if you please, certainly wouldn’t fit in your case warren, at least not in a sarcastic sense.  Just MMHO.

Well, Dave sure as hell wasn’t talking about Ken because he said "young".  Ken isn’t so as old as to be farting dust yet, but he isn’t a spring chicken either Hey Ken, preemptive SPLORK! <g — Warren Findley

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  Dave;   Are you referring to Umiakovic Char Camp? That’s run by Harvey Calden–he also runs Tim Pond Camps in Eustis. I’ve seen the video’s and brochures–the fishing is suppossed to be unbelieveable for big sea-run char–but it’s a very pricey camp. Of course the price of a gal. of gas was over $17 dollars/gallon–two years ago before the prices went out of sight. I have no idea what aviation fuel costs that far up north now–but it’s got to be considerably more than $17 dollars/gallon.    Dave M

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On a more serious note:  Each year when I returned to the Atikonak, I would hear stories about who got killed and how.  They were all Canadians, usually from Labrador.  They didn’t know  where they were going or what they were doing, and it cost them their lives.  You don’t have to be in your 60s with a couple of gimpy legs and no feeling in your feet to need a guide.  I understand your wanting to get away from it all and be on your own.  That’s fine in Maine, Michigan and Montana, but in Labrador it could get you killed.  Quickly. OG

Dave speaks the truth.  I doubt there’s any part of the lower 48 that resembles Canada’s North for true remoteness.  Just like in a remote area of the lower 48, fly over the lower half of Northern Ontario and you’ll see at least some signs of human presence, rail lines, roads, hydro towers, cottages, harbours, floatplane bases, microwave relays, airstrips, logging roads, fire towers,  trails, etc.  I have no fear of getting lost as a straight walk in any direction will have me bumping into something man-made sooner or later.  But Canada’s real north, NWT, Nunavut, Labrador, Yukon, – once you’re away from the cities and towns there’s absolutely nothing plus the landscape is incredibly rugged and unforgiving.  I went for a walk out from the camp in NWT and I realized as a trudged north that there was probably nothing man-made between me and the Arctic ocean, 130 miles away. Even just 15 minutes out of camp, one slip and I was done for – nobody would ever find me.  And don’t rely on our armed forces for rescue either – the crews are willing but the equipment is virtually non-existant. If you’re going to the real North – hire a guide.  If you don’t, your beneficiaries will thank you. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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… If you’re going to the real North – hire a guide.  If you don’t, your beneficiaries will thank you.

There’s nothing inherently dangerous about traveling the "real North" other than relying on Her Royal Majesties Cartographers. An experienced backcountry outdoorsman would have no problem whatsoever traveling, camping and fishing in Labrador. — Ken Fortenberry

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dang warren, they raised you in montana.  what do you want??? hee hee hee fishworship wayne

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This evening the venerable old pirate and myself went to a local TU chapter fund raiser. We were supposed to be joined by another but he was too tired. We got to see A.K. Best talk about Labrador Brookies and char. Holy shit are there some big fish up there. There was shot after shot of big brookies decked out in some pretty spectacular colours. Then we saw some pretty awsome char at the end. One thing I did notice is all the rods in the pictures were cane. Not a single graphite in any of the photos. Then there was the raffle after the show. Unfortunatly neither one of us won the two night stay for two people at Lakewood Camps on the Rapid River  but we both came out ahead for the night. Hey Louie, How about a Labrador Clave in 2003? Paul

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Hey Louie, How about a Labrador Clave in 2003?

Funny you should mention that, I have been telling my parents that is what I want for a graduation gift <g  Of course, they will probably buy a shit load of toys for my daughter instead. . . . — Warren Findley

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Question:

Hi, Can anybody recommend a good quality, sturdy tackle box. It needs to be large as I have a big collection of lures and trolling paraphernalia. At the moment I end up dragging two or three smaller boxes around with me. Many thanks, Nick

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shin real hard on the hitch receiver and jump around. Steve

Sorry, that was Bill Dance, "dancin" around the end of his truck. — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

"Nick C"

asks: Hi, Can anybody recommend a good quality, sturdy tackle box. It needs to be large as I have a big collection of lures and trolling paraphernalia. At the moment I end up dragging two or three smaller boxes around with me. Many thanks, Nick

I like Plano.  You can get them in sizes big enough to carry the contents of a one bedroom apartment. But, I do like two or three smaller boxes.  I fish for different species of fish, and bringing along a ton of bass stuff to fish for trout is just too much.  Now, I may keep the bass box in the car or RV, just in case, but hauling everything you own to go catch a few bluegills doesn’t work for me. I even like the little ones about as big as two packs of cigs to carry when I go for a short hike.  Big enough to carry some extra hooks, sinkers, lures, flies, etc, and go in a pocket. But I do like Plano, and for a couple of bucks, send in the deal and get your name on a real brass plate for the top.  Makes you look like Like Roland Martin.  And to really look like Roland, bang your shin real hard on the hitch receiver and jump around. Steve Illigitimi non carborundum.

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"Steve Huber"

Sorry, that was Bill Dance, "dancin" around the end of his truck.

I’ll bet that Roland has done it at least once.  Maybe not on camera. Steve Illigitimi non carborundum.

Response:

Hi, Can anybody recommend a good quality, sturdy tackle box. It needs to be large as I have a big collection of lures and trolling paraphernalia. At the moment I end up dragging two or three smaller boxes around with me. Many thanks, Nick

This doesnt relate much to what youre talking about, but If you take advice from the guys on TV and have like 5 small boxes for each kind of fish, you will end up going fishing and sure enough there will be people catching 20lb cats all around you when you only have your bass equipment with you.  or you take a bunch of topwater stuff and the bass are biting on the bottom……man that pisses me off so buy a big box, be ready for anything…..I even carry in my little firebird 4 different fishing poles….a fly rod & reel, a spinning reel w/ rod, a baitcasting reel w/ rod, and a bug surfrod with a huge spinning reel just in case the huge carp happen to be biting.

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so buy a big box, be ready for anything…..I even carry in my little firebird 4 different fishing poles….a fly rod & reel, a spinning reel w/ rod, a baitcasting reel w/ rod, and a bug surfrod

One of those shopping carts works good to haul all the stuff. Be sure to remove the market’s name. Steve  ;-) Illigitimi non carborundum.

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Cant remember the brand..but i saw one at wal-mart ,pretty big with removable clear boxes you could fit in a pocket for hiking,quick trip etc..

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Let’s see tackle boxes … you got Kevin Van Dam on TV with a tractor-trailer load of tackle, you got Mark Sosin on TV with little Plano tackle boxes for all occasions …. sometimes a dozen boxes for some occasions, you got foot locker-sized, cig-pack-sized,  you got worm boxes, leader boxes, fresh … salt …. fly …. surf … spinning …. bait casting … I secretly suspect your question was designed to stir up this bunch of smelly ol’ anglers … and hook em good … Mission accomplished. Unless of course, you work for Plano, Flambeau or any of the other tackle box makers. By the way, I’ve been fishing for 44 years, and I only have a dozen tackle boxes … not counting the little ones.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cant remember the brand..but i saw one at wal-mart ,pretty big with removable clear boxes you could fit in a pocket for hiking,quick trip etc..

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Let’s see tackle boxes … you got Kevin Van Dam on TV with a tractor-trailer load of tackle, you got Mark Sosin on TV with little Plano tackle boxes for all occasions …. sometimes a dozen boxes for some occasions, you got foot locker-sized, cig-pack-sized,  you got worm boxes, leader boxes, fresh … salt …. fly …. surf … spinning …. bait casting … I secretly suspect your question was designed to stir up this bunch of smelly ol’ anglers … and hook em good … Mission accomplished. Unless of course, you work for Plano, Flambeau or any of the other tackle box makers. By the way, I’ve been fishing for 44 years, and I only have a dozen tackle boxes … not counting the little ones.

I mostly freshwater fish, so I have two tackle boxes, one for fresh and a smaller one for salt. When I get too much freshwater gear and outgrow my box, I transfer all my saltwater stuff into it and give the smallest one to Goodwill. I’ve gone through about 4, and my freshwater box is now at the largest size Plano you can get without having dual side opening trays. I think I’m going to be keeping my current one for awhile Cant remember the brand..but i saw one at wal-mart ,pretty big with removable clear boxes you could fit in a pocket for hiking,quick trip etc..

Mega Man fans visit alt.games.megaman Quint’s page of Rockman manga scans: http://www.crosswinds.net/~sakugarne

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Question:

Has anyone had any experience with the Winston and Sage 5 piece rods that they would like to share, characteristics / advantages of one over the other, etc.?  I’m specifically interested in the 6W as I’m planning a trip to New Zealand where I’m told the wind blows fierce and the fish are big enough to warrant it.  I’m living overseas (Japan) traveling a lot, and having a rod I can toss into a suitcase or duffel with a reel and a box of flies could make the difference between fishing and not on a given trip.  Please answer via direct e-mail as I do not get a chance to go through the forum as often as I would like.  Thanks in advance. Dean Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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My first home rolled rod was built on a 3-piece Winston blank. To my way of thinking, the 3pc. broken-down length was ideal… not quite a suitcase rod, but small enough to fit into the overhead compartment on an airplane. & it was a Winston… Unfortunately, I slipped on an icy rock while attempting some winter fishing and shattered the butt section beyond repair. I’ve made a couple of other 2pc. fly rods since, but they don’t hold a candle to the Winston. my  $.20 Robert Hudson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone had any experience with the Winston and Sage 5 piece rods that they would like to share, characteristics / advantages of one over the other, etc.?  I’m specifically interested in the 6W as I’m planning a trip to New Zealand where I’m told the wind blows fierce and the fish are big enough to warrant it.  I’m living overseas (Japan) traveling a lot, and having a rod I can toss into a suitcase or duffel with a reel and a box of flies could make the difference between fishing and not on a given trip.  Please answer via direct e-mail as I do not get a chance to go through the forum as often as I would like.  Thanks in advance. I have a Sage 5-piece, 5-weight. SP and all I can say is that it’s one sweet MF. I needed a pack rod, and I tried various 3-piece and 4-piece rods, but none was better than this one. — Those who say do not know; those who know do not say. — Lao Tsu, who must have been a fisherman. something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Has anyone had any experience with the Winston and Sage 5 piece rods that they would like to share, characteristics / advantages of one over the other, etc.?  I’m specifically interested in the 6W as I’m planning a trip to New Zealand where I’m told the wind blows fierce and the fish are big enough to warrant it.  I’m living overseas (Japan) traveling a lot, and having a rod I can toss into a suitcase or duffel with a reel and a box of flies could make the difference between fishing and not on a given trip.  Please answer via direct e-mail as I do not get a chance to go through the forum as often as I would like.  Thanks in advance.

I have a Sage 5-piece, 5-weight. SP and all I can say is that it’s one sweet MF. I needed a pack rod, and I tried various 3-piece and 4-piece rods, but none was better than this one. — Those who say do not know; those who know do not say. — Lao Tsu, who must have been a fisherman. something bogus to avoid spam)

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Question:

tell me where to get them and i will do it thanx Andrew         What should i put on my website.  I have an outdoor Oriented site and was         wondering what you guys like in a website. Please let me know.         Andrew Fulton     Andrew,     Being the presumptious sob that I can be, I’ll speak for the group….     nude flyfishing women     that should about cover it…..     –Wataugan Walt

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If you can tell me where to get them i will do it.  Thanx Andrew         What should i put on my website.  I have an outdoor Oriented site and was         wondering what you guys like in a website. Please let me know.         Andrew Fulton     Andrew,     Being the presumptious sob that I can be, I’ll speak for the group….     nude flyfishing women     that should about cover it…..     –Wataugan Walt

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What should i put on my website.  I have an outdoor Oriented site and was wondering what you guys like in a website. Please let me know. Andrew Fulton Andrew, Being the presumptious sob that I can be, I’ll speak for the group…. nude flyfishing women that should about cover it….. –Wataugan Walt

—

Question:

When I was ready for the purchase I brought my own reel with 6 wt. line.  I brought both rods out and cast them using the same line and reel setup.  I actually tried 3 models of Sage rods.  After the Sage I tried the Scott.  I bought the Scott.  BTW, I had also tried Loomis, Redington, Orvis, and Diamondback that day and Fenwick, Cortland, and St. Croix earlier.  It boiled down to what worked best for my casting style and preference.  There are two big fly fishing shows in Maryland in two weeks and a better place to compare virtually all the manufacturers could not be found.  Bring your own reel and line setup so you can compare apples. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Which rod is better – Scott or Sage? Why? Thanks for your time. G Wilson

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My old man was a cabinet maker who said a poor workman always blames his tools. In the right hands (appropriate skills and experience) probably almost any reputable manufacturer’s rod would be good, so pick the one YOU prefer. I personally use one Orvis and one Sage rod. Both have served me well. regards from Montreal John Brkich

Response:

    Which rod is better – Scott or Sage? Why? Thanks for your time. G Wilson

I’d agree with all the comments to the effect that it is a matter of individual casting style. I would point out though, that Scott and Sage appear to be at opposite ends of the fast/slow spectrum, based on my modicum of experience. There are shop owners here who can probably comment further on this issue. For a novice, basically the Sage would seem really stiff in comparison to the Scott. The Sage would probably seem easier to cast, at least at first. Personally, I fish a Winston IM6 4 weight most of the time. Scotts were too slow for me, Sages too fast. Good Luck Rick

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     Which rod is better – Scott or Sage? Why? Thanks for your time. G Wilson

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    Which rod is better – Scott or Sage? Why? Thanks for your time. G Wilson

Very Simple. Whichever one fits your casting style. Years ago, my flyshop sent me a LL 9 footer to try when I was looking for a 4wt. Fished it on a Pa Spring creek. When the dealer called to ask how I liked it, I told him I had good news and bad news. life. Took 2-1/2 hours to do what should have taken 2-1/2 minutes. Bottom line: ordered a 4 wt Scott and never looked back. All my rods are now Scotts (Harry, SF vintage) and I love them, but that is because they suit my casting/fishing style. Don’t let someone tell you which to buy. Fish them both and buy the one that fits you. The Scott does have one real advantage though. The line weight specified really is the correct line weight. With the Sage, no way (unless they’ve changed recently) Good Luck, BP

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Which rod is better – Scott or Sage? Why? Thanks for your time. G Wilson Very Simple. Whichever one fits your casting style. Years ago, my flyshop sent me a LL 9 footer to try when I was looking for a 4wt. Fished it on a Pa Spring creek. When the dealer called to ask how I liked it, I told him I had good news and bad news. life. Took 2-1/2 hours to do what should have taken 2-1/2 minutes. Bottom line: ordered a 4 wt Scott and never looked back. All my rods are now Scotts (Harry, SF vintage) and I love them, but that is because they suit my casting/fishing style. Don’t let someone tell you which to buy. Fish them both and buy the one that fits you. The Scott does have one real advantage though. The line weight specified really is the correct line weight. With the Sage, no way (unless they’ve changed recently) Good Luck, BP

Hi BP, I think you pretty well hit it on the head. We all don’t need the same length, line size or action because of our different casting styles and different fishing conditions. I agree that the old original G series Scott and also the Winston IM6 series rods are a little softer than the Sage LL series. The softer rods will work in a little closer, but might not cast as well in longer places or the wind. It is always a compromise. I see trout stream fly fishers going to softer, light rods as they get better and more experienced. The softer and light rods will allow you to land bigger fish on lighter tippets too. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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Question:

Does anyone know of any programs etc etc or web pages that talk about fly hatches… when they start etc..for pacific northwest or b.c. canada….any info would be appreciated…thanks.

Response:

I have a page listing general hatch info for western Montana. go to http://www.montana.com/dno/info.htm to view it. Hope this helps. Does anyone know of any programs etc etc or web pages that talk about fly hatches… when they start etc..for pacific northwest or b.c. canada….any info would be appreciated…thanks.

– Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm

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Last weekend, I went to Wales near river Usk  and try to play fry fishing for  salmon. At that time  I heard that spring salmon don’t try to eat  flys, just try to bite being gotten angry. Is it true ?

Response:

Last weekend, I went to Wales near river Usk  and try to play fry fishing for  salmon. At that time  I heard that spring salmon don’t try to eat  flys, just try to bite being gotten angry. Is it true ?

Spawning salmon don’t have much of an appetite, but will strike at annoyances, like a crazy bug darting in front of its snout every 10 seconds or so… B

Response:

Last weekend, I went to Wales near river Usk  and try to play fry fishing for  salmon. At that time  I heard that spring salmon don’t try to eat  flys, just try to bite being gotten angry. Is it true ?

Not many Spring (ie early-running) Salmon in the Usk these days – runs are getting later.  Any that do enter the river this early are likely to be 10-12 lbs and they won’t spawn until December.  There just isn’t enough food for them to "feed" for 8 months. There are lots of reasons why Atlantic Salmon might take.  Hugh Falkus, the best UK salmon fisherman / writer for me, suggested: feeding habit, aggression, curiosity, irritation, inducement and playfulness. He gives a brilliant description of playfulness, observed from a high bank, when a fish intercepted a worm, did a quick figure-of-eight around it and then drifted downstream with the worm in its open mouth, never touching it, whilst doing swivels and tail-stands like a seal with a ball…! — Phil Jones Swansea, South Wales

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Question:

I am driving from Boise ID. to Hamilton, then Butte, MT and then back to Boise in September.  I am looking for suggestions for fly fishing spots that are reasonably accessible, yet have decent action. I will be stopping in Stanley and Salmon. Thanks in advance. Mark.

Response:

I am driving from Boise ID. to Hamilton, then Butte, MT and then back to Boise in September.  I am looking for suggestions for fly fishing spots that are reasonably accessible, yet have decent action. I will be stopping in Stanley and Salmon. Thanks in advance. Mark.

If you are at all into Still water, try Henry’s lake in eastern Id. BIG Trout this year, and Sep. is when the moss goes down.

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If you drive the Skalkaho road from Hamilton,  you will cross the Rock Creek Drainage and pass by Georgetown Lake.  Both should be very good in September (weather pemitting).  The Big Hole is usually good in fall also.

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