Question:

Think caddis flies in June, Frank.  Green Rock Worm, tan LaFontaine caddis emerger, throw in a few small PTs (they always work) and a few Goddard Caddis, and voila, you’re there. Dave Well, I’ll start tying now if I can find my vise.  Now, wasn’t that on top of the truck?

What girls did you "visit" while in Coburn? Sounds like you were in a real hurry to get out of town. — TL, Tim

Response:

I forgot to add: I took a ful Reid (without water).  My rock hopping days are surely limited. My feet went out from underneath me like I was on an icy slope.  Smashed by back up pretty good (or is that pretty bad?).  The same shit I suffered through a few months back.  If I bend over, I have trouble getting back up.  (No smart-ass remarks either!) d;o)

Response:

I forgot to add: I took a ful Reid (without water).  My rock hopping days are surely limited. My feet went out from underneath me like I was on an icy slope.  Smashed by back up pretty good (or is that pretty bad?).  The same shit I suffered through a few months back.  If I bend over, I have trouble getting back up.  (No smart-ass remarks either!) d;o)

hey, take care Louie, you’ve got an important fishing date coming up. Hey Dave, if it hurts when you bend, don’t bend.  You have to come and see us soon.  I’m practicing on my new stove.   This is the Jag of all Jags.   The Thanksgiving turkey, the meat pies will all be waiting for you. Did I mention the pumpkin pie? Love Suzie XOXOXO

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…   The Thanksgiving turkey, …

Canadian Thanksgiving makes WAY more sense than the American version. The second Monday of October is a great time to have a real fall harvest fest. The end of November sucks, and besides it’s too close to Xmas. — Ken Fortenberry- left in disgust at the start of the 4th quarter

Response:

Suzie Homemaker writes: he Thanksgiving turkey, the meat pies will all be waiting for you. Did I mention the pumpkin pie? Love Suzie XOXOXO

You’re too much, Jo.  Is it any wonder Petah loves you so.  My Jo says hi.  See you in a week.  Pumpkin pie, eh? Dave

Response:

Suzie Homemaker writes: he Thanksgiving turkey, the meat pies will all be waiting for you. Did I mention the pumpkin pie? Love Suzie XOXOXO You’re too much, Jo.  Is it any wonder Petah loves you so.  My Jo says hi.  See you in a week.  Pumpkin pie, eh? Dave

Can’t wait to see you both on the 13th. Love Suzie

Response:

 Smashed my back up pretty good (or is that pretty bad?).

Enjoyed your TR but sorry to hear about your bad luck. You reminded me that some years ago, an announcer at a Penn State football game announced that a player who had been hurt, and was coming off the field, was "limping pretty good."  I wondered if that was the opposite of "limping pretty bad," or if it meant he was doing it in an accomplished and artistic manner. Hope you get well soon. vince

Response:

Vince Norris writes: You reminded me that some years ago, an announcer at a Penn State football game announced that a player who had been hurt, and was coming off the field, was "limping pretty good."  I wondered if that was the opposite of "limping pretty bad," or if it meant he was doing it in an accomplished and artistic manner. Hope you get well soon. vince

Fortunately I wasn’t hurt badly.  A friend (in his early 70s) saw it, and thought I had to be hurt bad (good?), so he got on his rather sophisticated radio and called his son fishing downriver at Harbeck Pool.  His son started back to help in the "rescue", but when my friend saw me up and about, he called and told the son I was ok.  Nice to know someone was watching out for me. Dave

Response:

ok.  Nice to know someone was watching out for me. Dave

Hey, I worry about you big guy.  With all the luck you’ve had, a wonderful wife, trips to Lakewood left, right and center, that land yacht of yours, I figure your lucks gotta run out sometime. Good report.  I can’t wait to get up there next year.  Ya gotta give me an idear as to what those flies were and if you tinks dayums would work in June. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

Frank Reid writes: Ya gotta give me an idear as to what those flies were and if you tinks dayums would work in June.

Think caddis flies in June, Frank.  Green Rock Worm, tan LaFontaine caddis emerger, throw in a few small PTs (they always work) and a few Goddard Caddis, and voila, you’re there.   Dave

Response:

Think caddis flies in June, Frank.  Green Rock Worm, tan LaFontaine caddis emerger, throw in a few small PTs (they always work) and a few Goddard Caddis, and voila, you’re there. Dave

Well, I’ll start tying now if I can find my vise.  Now, wasn’t that on top of the truck? — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

The boat was waiting for us when we arrived at South Arm.  It is always amusing to see Henry jump from the car, run down to the dock and get aboard Lakewood’s boat.  (Lakewood owns the boat, so the apotrophe is correct)   After a quick lunch, I headed to the dam.  No one in sight.  I picked one of the good spots and started with Bruiser’s #20 PT, tied on a scudd hook.  Second cast and I had a decent brookie, dressed to the nines in her fall colors.  A few casts later, another brookie.  It went on like this until I lost the fly. %, I only had one.  Fortunately I brought along the fly box that Bruiser gave me at the SJ clave two years ago.  It was filled with little size 20 – 24 jewels.  I selected something similar, and it was *better*.  What an outstanding afternoon.  The catch of brookies to salmon was about 5 to 1.  I can remember when it was 10 to 1 salmon to brookies.  And it wasn’t that long ago.  C & R works (sorry Timbo) On Monday morning I went to Pond in the River – not much happening with the standard stuff.  However, an old stand-by, the Jail Bird tied on a size 20 dry fly hook brought two very nice brook trout from the wing dam pool.  That fly has never failed me!  Very simple tie, too.  After a sumptuous lunch, I was a bit tired, so I napped until mid-afternoon and then hit the dam.   As before, Bruiser’s tiny SJ flies did their magic.  I dredged Zimbo’s Run and landed several nice (+14 inch) brookies, as well as some  salmon about the same size.  The fish looked to be in remarkable condition, especially the brookies. Only a couple of salmon that I caught (the entire week) had sores on their jaws from being hooked.  There was a team of biologists surveying the river for the power company.  I had a conversation with them at dinner and asked about the mortality of C&R.  Although they didn’t give me a percentage, their feelings were that the brookies are very strong and their mortality is very, very low, whereas the salmon, dumber and not as strong, still have a low mortality.  With the number of fish I caught that looked healthy, I’d say they were spot on in their estimation. Tuesday was a repeat of Monday, with the exception of a 19 inch brookie taken on one of Bruisers #20 nymphs.  I also worked some rising salmon.  There was a hatch on, and I cast a tiny little black fly.  In general, they were small fish – in the 8 to 12 inch range, and no brookies.  So, I switched back to the little nymphs and continued to have luck at any spot at the dam.  Again, the brookies were ferocious with Bruiser’s flies. Wednesday, Thursday and Friday were the same, except Friday it rained harder than it did at Henry’s Fork (if that is possible).  We got about 4 inches of water in less than 24 hours.  Fishing remained fairly good, however, and I finally got a chance to wear my SST jacket.  Kept me dry and warm.  Sleeping in one of Lakewood’s cabins is always a treat, but when it is cold and raining, it is extra sweet.   The season ends on Tuesday.  I’ve been home three hours and I’m ready to go back.  It is gonna be a long winter……. Dave

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Question:

P&P has a small bonefishing lodge on the other end of the island. http://www.peaceandplenty.com/resorts/bonefish.htm there is a dock, unsure if you could rent though, i think the idea is to provide you with a guide and boat. no night life though, you would have to go into georgetown for that, too far to walk or bicycle. to follow up whoever mentioned Stocking island, taking the ferry from the main hotel in town and walking accross stocking island to the exposed side is well worth the effort. the view from the top is quite nice as well. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Surfnturf, I have heard of the place, ran across it somewhere on the internet. Sounds very beautiful, maybe a bit too remote for me this trip. I want just a little bit of  "Bahamian culture" and night life to spice things up for me and the lady. Are you familiar with the Staniel Cay Yacht Club? That looks like it would be a trip worth investigating sometime too. Rich

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I know this is a boat newsgroup, but I presume many of you have cruised the Bahama out islands and Exuma. A lady friend and I are planning a vacation to George Town, Exuma in April. I would like to be close to town and plan on renting a boat. I’m looking for reasonable accommodations close to the water near a dock or marina where I can keep a boat. I prefer a place that is not too crowded, commercial, i.e. NOT Club Peace and Plenty unless someone can convince me otherwise. Any suggestions appreciated. Anyone familiar with Minns Cottages, Coral Gardens Bed & Breakfast Inn, Two Turtles Inn, Marshall’s Guest House, Flamingo Bay Hotel and Villas, Coconut Cove Hotel, Mount Pleasant Hotel? I would like to do some fly fishing on the flats for bonefish and offshore light tackle fly fishing too. Any good guide recommendations or charters? Sincerely, Rich Lamanna

Response:

In the 80’s we had only 3 choices. Peace & Plenty, two Turtle Inn ( across the street for P&P) and another resort type place but I can’t remember the name. We really enjoyed the P&P really quaint. There wasn’t much of a town and P&P was in it. But on our second visit went to the resort type place because P&P didn’t have a beach. They own an absolutely great, private beach about a 5 minute ride across the bay called stocking island. P&P was the hotel that all boaters got their mail delivered to. They catered to boaters needs. But remember this was in the 80’s. I would go back to P&P in a minute, no hesitation. That’s my 2 cents FWIW. Joe Sand Dollar Noank, CT  

Response:

Joe, thanks for the reply. I have some friends who spent their honeymoon at P&P. They thought it was great too. What did you think of Two Turtles Inn? Did you have a chance to check it out? I realize it was a long time ago but any recollection would be appreciated. Sincerely, Rich

Response:

Are you set on going to Georgetown? I have another suggestion -very remote – very beautiful – fantastic!!!  Check out Compass Cay on the Internet.  Just south of the Land and Sea Park and about 10 miles north of Staniel Cay where there is an airport.   ADVANTAGES: Remote Most beautiful beach in the Exhumas 1 mile crescent shapped beach Beach "busy" if anyone else there 10 slip marina 1 lodge and 2 rental apartments friendly native owner no bars – no restaurants- no people rental boats and motors Bone fish galore DISADVANTAGES Remote No bars – no restaurants 10 miles by boat to store and restaurant Didn’t make it there last winter but spent several months there on our boat in 1999 and 2000.  Fantastic if you want to get away from civilization.  Fantastic if you want to bone fish.  Fantastic if you like to snorkel and explore.

Response:

Surfnturf, I have heard of the place, ran across it somewhere on the internet. Sounds very beautiful, maybe a bit too remote for me this trip. I want just a little bit of  "Bahamian culture" and night life to spice things up for me and the lady. Are you familiar with the Staniel Cay Yacht Club? That looks like it would be a trip worth investigating sometime too. Rich

Response:

The SCYC is 10 miles south of Compass.  It is located near the airport for the area.  Great conch burgers at the bar.  Also have had good dinner there. Colorful cabins on the water for guests.  Bahamian culture – yes night life – no.  Staniel Cay has a couple of local bars and restaurants, the SCYC and Thunderball restaurants and a couple of grocery stores (with most of the "sell by" dates on merchandise erased).  Still serviced once a week by mail boat for supplies and mail.  Airport makes it convenient but not a place where I would take a lady for a fun visit.  Less remote than Compass but activities primarily boating, fishing and water oriented.  If both of you are not really into that, it would be a mistake.  Have you looked at the Abacos and Eluthera.  Spanish Wells, Harbour Island and Hope Town get a strong recommendation from my wife. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Surfnturf, I have heard of the place, ran across it somewhere on the internet. Sounds very beautiful, maybe a bit too remote for me this trip. I want just a little bit of  "Bahamian culture" and night life to spice things up for me and the lady. Are you familiar with the Staniel Cay Yacht Club? That looks like it would be a trip worth investigating sometime too. Rich

Response:

Question:

Remember Herters? The case that finally dove them into bankruptcy was importing flies and fly tying material from India (and other countries).   I would think customs inspectors would see a red light when any thing like a feather showed up in the baggage of a traveler just back from India.  I don’t think the money saved would be worth the trouble.

I got the impression he was bringing a kit to tie with while he was *in* India which is why I recommended looking there for materials instead of bringing them *into* India. FWIW — Charlie…

Response:

I think your right.  It just sounded like the tread was evolving to the point where the guy was going to bring a cotton sack full of feathers back with him. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got the impression he was bringing a kit to tie with while he was *in* India which is why I recommended looking there for materials instead of bringing them *into* India. FWIW — Charlie…

Response:

Yes,  I was just after the most basic materials to take,  just in case I couldn’t find them there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think your right.  It just sounded like the tread was evolving to the point where the guy was going to bring a cotton sack full of feathers back with him. I got the impression he was bringing a kit to tie with while he was *in* India which is why I recommended looking there for materials instead of bringing them *into* India. FWIW — Charlie…

Response:

Remember Herters?  The case that finally dove them into bankruptcy was importing flies and fly tying material from India (and other countries).   I would think customs inspectors would see a red light when any thing like a feather showed up in the baggage of a traveler just back from India.  I don’t think the money saved would be worth the trouble. There are shops around here that sell crafts from third world countries.  I have not checked them out because they are mostly "pottery and useless things that women buy"..  If they sold fly I would consider buying from them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Assuming that space is drastically limited  (i.e. business trip overseas), what limited flytying materials would you recommend? I’m off to southern India (Bangalore), What kind of fish? Since a good percent of the worlds commercially tied flies come from India there may be plenty of materials available there. — Charlie…

Response:

Assuming that space is drastically limited  (i.e. business trip overseas), what limited flytying materials would you recommend? I’m off to southern India (Bangalore),  and I’m taking 2 rods 9′ #6 & 9′ #10 (both 4 piecers to go on plane with me).  I shall be taking a small travellers’ flytying kit with me,  and some crucial materials plus the hooks (large and small).  Space & weight is really limited (after all,  this is supposed to be a business trip),  so perhaps a black silk thread,  some fine copper wire, ~ but what else? What would you guys take?  I have semi made up my mind on the materials, but would like to hear some recommendations.

Response:

What species of fish will you be fishing for? How long will you be there? Are we talking fresh or salt water? George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Mike, I would definitely take some marabou and chenille as this is relatively light and flat so is easily packed. Are you still up for the fly swap. E-mail me if any problems. Chris

Response:

Assuming that space is drastically limited  (i.e. business trip overseas), what limited flytying materials would you recommend? I’m off to southern India (Bangalore),  

What kind of fish? Since a good percent of the worlds commercially tied flies come from India there may be plenty of materials available there. — Charlie…

Response:

Are you Richard Cook ("RC")? I received an email from RC about a fly-swap, 12 contesters or something;  is this the fly swap you mention? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, I would definitely take some marabou and chenille as this is relatively light and flat so is easily packed. Are you still up for the fly swap. E-mail me if any problems. Chris

Response:

What species of fish will you be fishing for? How long will you be there? Are we talking fresh or salt water?"

I really don’t know what I’ll be after.  In fact it is a perfect mystery for me.  I have once stumbled over some writings by a British Army officer whilst posted in Bangalore.  He did in fact catch some tiny brownies in the streams in the hills there.  However,  I shall also be in Madras (Chennai) for a while,  and that is by the seaside.  I have only ever spent 1 week in India.  I saw the most numerous and humongous rats in Bombay; I enjoyed the relative leafy calm of Bangalore,  and I withered in the August heat of Delhi. My first day in Bangalore saw some kites from my car window in the suburbs/rural fringes.  I asked my agent what they were,  and he said that they were large predatory birds looking for "things" in the waterways.  We soon came across a bridge over one of these waterways.  Naturally I was keen to take a peek over the bridge walls.  I’ve never seen such pollution ever in my life; the water was literally a flowing mass of human waste.  God only knows what the kites were after.  There certainly were no fish in this particular stream. I will be in India on and off for some time to come.  I have already given instructions to my agent to research the topic of "fly fishing in southern India".  A topic on my agenda for "taxi from airport talk" will most definitely be "where are we going fishing then?"  "what will we be after", and (hopefully) so on. Anyway,  I’ve opted for: pheasant tail hare’s mask peacock herl starling breast feathers some seal’s fur some badger cock hackles ginger too tinsel small amount of yellow bucktail 2 starling secondaries (one from either wing) french partridge breast feathers duck flank What else should I take?

Response:

Michael, yes this is the fly swap. You sent me a message saying you wantyed to participate in the fly swap, sorry if this is not you. Please advise if you will be participating in the swap. Thanks Chris

Response:

Must have been a while ago,  as I obviously must have forgotten.  Either that or bad memory.  Did I really mail a message saying I would?    Mmm, I’m getting to the point wherefrom  I forget how bad my  memory really is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Michael, yes this is the fly swap. You sent me a message saying you wantyed to participate in the fly swap, sorry if this is not you. Please advise if you will be participating in the swap. Thanks Chris

Response:

You should be able to obtain more than sufficient tying supplies in India. Quite a lot of stuff is on offer there for tying.  A friend of mine brought back several hundred quite excellent capes from India, but that was over twenty years ago.  Might be worth having a good look around though. Be careful about CITES regulations if you bring anything back with you. I would probably take along a hares mask, a starling skin, and get the rest there.  I assume you will be fishing in hill streams for brownies, I vaguely remember reading something about this a long time ago, but I have forgotten where. I also recall reading that many rivers in India are so badly polluted that fishing is more or less a waste of time. Might even be worth while to concentrate on getting some good tying materials, and forget the fishing.  I recall my friend telling me he only fished twice while he was there, once for trout, and once for something like perch, the rest of the time he wandered around collecting materials. Got some magnificent stuff too. Whatever, hope you have a nice time there. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Assuming that space is drastically limited  (i.e. business trip overseas), what limited flytying materials would you recommend?

Response:

Check import of natural materials.  For example, I think Japan bans peacock. Don’t know anything about India.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Assuming that space is drastically limited  (i.e. business trip overseas), what limited flytying materials would you recommend? I’m off to southern India (Bangalore),  and I’m taking 2 rods 9′ #6 & 9′ #10 (both 4 piecers to go on plane with me).  I shall be taking a small travellers’ flytying kit with me,  and some crucial materials plus the hooks (large and small).  Space & weight is really limited (after all,  this is supposed to be a business trip),  so perhaps a black silk thread,  some fine copper wire, ~ but what else? What would you guys take?  I have semi made up my mind on the materials, but would like to hear some recommendations.

Response:

<< What species of fish will you be fishing for? How long will you be there? Are we talking fresh or salt water?"

I really don’t know what I’ll be after.  In fact it is a perfect mystery for me.  I have once stumbled over some writings by a British Army officer whilst posted in Bangalore.  He did in fact catch some tiny brownies in the streams in the hills there. << Michael"   A quick search under Mahseer, a species I remember from reading books by colonial British sportsmen, found the following, among 80 other sites.  I have no connection to this or any other fishing site and relay it only as a possible source of info. "Mahseer Fishing Holidays in India with Chandertal Tours The finest freshwater fighting fish in the world? The Mahseer is regarded by many anglers as simply the best sport available, and the first time you hook a sizeable one you will discover why! Today, it can be found mostly in India and Burma." http://www.adventure-mag.com/Default.asp?Adventure=14 I think I recall that Mahseer are the largest members of the minnow family, running well past 100 lbs.  Legendarily, one needs deep sea gear to land them. Probably horsehooey; in Indian rivers today you probably are casting for Coney Island Whitefish.  The Mahseer in the picture at that site is pretty impressive though. Keep us posted. Glenn GKT

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<< What species of fish will you be fishing for? How long will you be there? Are we talking fresh or salt water?"

I really don’t know what I’ll be after.  In fact it is a perfect mystery for me.  I have once stumbled over some writings by a British Army officer whilst posted in Bangalore.  He did in fact catch some tiny brownies in the streams in the hills there.   << Michael"   Forget my last post about a web site on Mahseer.  Look at the picture at this site http://www.indianwildlife.com/angling_mahseersouth.htm It would take a fish like that to convince me to stand half-naked in a river in India, and the sucker had better have fought like a tarpon.  Anyway, this site was under "southern" India and Bangalore.  Good luck. Maybe there are still exotic species tucked away in corners where people haven’t completely crapped up the world. GKT

Response:

Assuming that space is drastically limited  (i.e. business trip overseas), what limited flytying materials would you recommend? I’m off to southern India (Bangalore),  and I’m taking 2 rods 9′ #6 & 9′ #10 (both 4 piecers to go on plane with me).  I shall be taking a small travellers’ flytying kit with me,  and some crucial materials plus the hooks (large and small).  Space & weight is really limited (after all,  this is supposed to be a business trip),  so perhaps a black silk thread,  some fine copper wire, ~ but what else? What would you guys take?  I have semi made up my mind on the materials, but would like to hear some recommendations.

Penicillin. And plenty of it.

Response:

Question:

Not being a fish I can’t say for certain but… Just because the fly in you hand looks to the angler like the fly that is hatching doesn’t mean that the fish sees it the same. I bet that there was something that the fish saw that was different enough that it ignored the imitation and went after the real thing. The caddis was something familiar but without something to compare it to. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Took the recently acquired 2 wt. out to my favorite stream yesterday for some mid summer midging.  When I arrived, I observed trout feeding on the surface but couldn’t see what they were feeding on.  When I got on the water I saw tiny, cream colored insects hatching and flying off the waters surface.  This is exactly what I had hoped for.  I was prepared with a handy selection of cream colored midges ranging in size from 20-24 and was eager to use the 2wt. in this setting.  After watching my presentations be ignored for over 45 minutes in every size category,  I  decided that if I was going to fish dry and not catch anything, I may as well fish with something I could darn well see. So, I tied on a size 16 elk hair caddis and on the first cast was hooked onto a nice rainbow.  I proceeded to catch 3 more bows in a 30 minute span.  Much to my dismay, the skies had turned dark and the boomers were signaling that I should exit the stream. I still can’t figure it out…..there was absolutely nothing on the water the size of the caddis I was fishing.  In fact, it looked like a darn freighter among canoes where the hatch is concerned. Could it be that it was just so big and juicy looking the fish couldn’t turn it away?  Ideas, thoughts welcome and appreciated.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On some heavily fished waters, especially where the fish are highly educated, this technique is not quite as successful, as the fish are often simply too wary, but it will still work often enough.  Tactics for use on specific waters vary, but one thing is certain, now matter how wary a fish becomes, it has to eat to survive, and if you find the right fly in this case, and present it properly, you will invariably be successful. In my experience, and in that of many others, as is well documented in the literature, you may catch at least ninety percent of the trout you find on any reasonable fly,  correctly served.  The other ten per cent will prove more difficult, and may require other more specific prescriptions. Often this ten per cent includes the larger fish. They got large because they are naturally more wary than their brethren, or because they live in "impossible" places, which can not be reached suitably with a fly.  In some cases, most especially with some big browns, the fish are almost entirely piscivorous, and a normal dry fly or nymph is seldom taken.  A streamer or a large bug like a hopper may prove useful for such fish.  Or even something like a large woolly bugger, fished deep near a known lie. Or it may be necessary to fish for them at night.  These fish rarely have anything but fish in their stomachs. An inspection of the stomach contents of practically any trout, will invariably show that the fish has taken all sorts of things, ( the piscivorous fish excluded of course ),  even when a specific hatch is in progress, and though these insects ( often the nymphs especially), may dominate, there are always other insects in there as well. This is also one reason why even more or less hopeless anglers, using awful technique and equipment , terrible presentation, and more than likely lousy flies as well, still manage to catch a few fish. None of the above applies to sea-trout or salmon, or indeed to other anadromous fish which normally cease to feed in fresh water.  They do not take the flies in order to survive, and indeed in many cases can not digest them properly anyway.  Here it is basically a case of finding a fly which will annoy them enough to grab it, or for some other reason, reflex, feeding memory etc etc. There is no way to know why these fish take a fly at all. Logical considerations, as in the case of normal freshwater fish, do not apply here. Just a few thoughts on the matter. TL MC — "If you have tried everything you know, and nothing works, then perhaps it is time to accept that you don

Question:

ROFL.  You got it, Bob.  Good advice.  However, you forgot goats, trees, lawyers, and boiled peanuts!  <g

Response:

BASTAARRRDDD!!!

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Boiled Peanuts, what the hell are boiled peanuts??

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ROFL.  You got it, Bob.  Good advice.  However, you forgot goats, trees, lawyers, and boiled peanuts!  <g

Response:

Boiled Peanuts, what the hell are boiled peanuts??

Well, not to put too fine a point on it but, they are peanuts that have been boiled.      

Response:

Hello everyone, I have decided to try this thing called Fly fishing.  I live in Northeast Ohio and will be fishing for Smallmouth, Steelhead and a stray Salmon most of the time. I don’t have a small fortune to spend, so I need some input on what I need and what size.     I have been doing some reading on fly fishing and I understand some of the termanology that goes along with it. There is a hell of alot to learn and I don’t even own a rod yet  HELP Thanks Jim Vonderau

Response:

Hello everyone, I have decided to try this thing called Fly fishing.  I live in Northeast Ohio and will be fishing for Smallmouth, Steelhead and a stray Salmon most of the time. I don’t have a small fortune to spend, so I need some input on what I need and what size.     I have been doing some reading on fly fishing and I understand some of the termanology that goes along with it. There is a hell of alot to learn and I don’t even own a rod yet  HELP Thanks Jim Vonderau

Uh, oh… Get ready James… You’ve just called in an artillery strike at your chair!! INCOMING!!! — Michael Era

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And I thought I wouldn’t *ever* get my own thread. Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC "If you’re not the lead dog, the view never changes." Tom Browns Bastard is causing ROFF to rave, a thread has been engendered, the results of this are grave, but he can go casting on ! casting over seventy feet, with a quick flick of the wrist, will cause most Orvis owners here to shake an angry fist, but  he will go casting on ! His spouse is not quite certain, what the ruckus is about, all this talk of Bastards, is causing her some doubt, but he will go casting on ! the waiting and the hoping now has not been all in vain, Tom at last is getting his awaited fighting cane, and he will go casting on ! Now Tom is the lead dog, and the view has changed for him, he is getting the first Bastard, with a special coloured trim, and he will go casting on ! lets hope he catches plenty, and enjoys his fishing too, perhaps he will be kind enough to give us a review, as he goes casting on ! TL MC

Thanks for the smile Mike…. –Walt To fish is soliloquy.

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George,  You sending this to yourself? David NB – when the rods really make an impact you can put the price up to include a ‘doubters’ premium"! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snipped) Trust me.  I couldn’t have picked a better Bastard to send the proto type to.  It was made with great care and it is a casting delight. Couldn’t have picked a better man. I’m gone. — Mr. G. ‘all’s fair with fur or feather’ http://www.gink.com http://www.rodbuilding.com http://www.xink.com 509-243-4100 or 5500

Question:

it was likely the intent to drive you off the run. I’ve experienced the same. Two or three fishing buddies think they can intimidate you off the water. Best thing to do is leave.

But Ralph….. If you leave, haven’t they just accomplished what they set out to do? I know that discretion is the better part of valour and he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day, but dammit there are times when you just gotta say "I was here first" (it works for the natives) With one above and one below I think I’d just camp there for a while. If they really are fishing buddies, its gonna cramp their style to have me in between them and that’s just what I’d do! Tough Sh*t if they don’t like it

Response:

200 feet on Yellowstone Lake is pretty damned close….was the lake calm ?

Tim, I’ve agreed with you most of the time but 200′ anywhere is not close. Joel Axelrad

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P.S. I had some marvelous fishing on scenic small streams (in solitude) in the Park.

Right. I grew up fishing small streams, and I’ve never gotten over the notion that "real" fly fishing is conducted in the quiet ofwilderness and the company of one or two like-minded friends. I also believe that the best fishing is usually found right between your ears and not in some exotic, faraway place on a map. Dennis Smith Loveland, CO

Response:

It is annoying when you are on a lake as big as Yellowstone and some guy driving by sees you catch a fish and the next thing you know you are standing in a crowd of fishermen. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 200 feet on Yellowstone Lake is pretty damned close….was the lake calm ? Tim, I’ve agreed with you most of the time but 200′ anywhere is not close. Joel Axelrad

Response:

t was likely the intent to drive you off the run. I’ve experienced the same. Two or three fishing buddies think they can intimidate you off the water. Best thing to do is leave.

Sometimes I wonder, when I’m in this situation. Maybe if I were to just be a clumsy, noisy fisherman for a while, put all the fish down, then *they* would leave. It might take a while for the pool to settle out again, but it might be worth it. FlyFisherRay

Response:

t was likely the intent to drive you off the run. I’ve experienced the same. Two or three fishing buddies think they can intimidate you off the water. Best thing to do is leave. Sometimes I wonder, when I’m in this situation. Maybe if I were to just be a clumsy, noisy fisherman for a while, put all the fish down, then *they* would leave. It might take a while for the pool to settle out again, but it might be worth it. FlyFisherRay

now I like that! Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

First, there is no such thing as Western etiquette… The South prety much controls the market on regional etiquette (although there it’s known as "hospitality"). Second, if there was such a thing as Western etiquette, the first rule would be: If you’re in a float tube, and you’re (justly or unjustly) rebuffed by a bank fisherman, politely smile and quickly move on. You’ve no idea what he’s got back in his pickup, and you’re worse than a sitting duck, so you don’t want to escalate the conflict. Glad to see you followed rule #1. -chuck o. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just spent a week in Yellowstone Park and am rather confused about etiquette.  Fishing a run on Soda Butte Creek, someone got in at the head of the run, at most 100 feet away, and then his friend got in below me on the same run.  I thought this was very rude, so I drove upstream to another section. The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?     – Offended in Ohio P.S. I had some marvelous fishing on scenic small streams (in solitude) in the Park.  It occurred to me however, that outside of the occasional 15" cutthroat,  I can have just as much fun fishing scenic small streams in Pennsylvania with much lower travel costs.

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Pretty hard to say where this etiquette originated.  This time of year you won’t find many locals fishing the popular tourist places.  In August on Yellowstone Lake, the fisherman in question could have been from damn near any place on the planet. Da? Parochially Yours, Don Kelly Butte, MT

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And of course you assumed he was a "Westerner" ???? A true Westerner would not have called you a bad name – he might just have pulled out his gun and let you have it . A transplanted Pennsyltuckian. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just spent a week in Yellowstone Park and am rather confused about etiquette.  Fishing a run on Soda Butte Creek, someone got in at the head of the run, at most 100 feet away, and then his friend got in below me on the same run.  I thought this was very rude, so I drove upstream to another section. The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?     – Offended in Ohio P.S. I had some marvelous fishing on scenic small streams (in solitude) in the Park.  It occurred to me however, that outside of the occasional 15" cutthroat,  I can have just as much fun fishing scenic small streams in Pennsylvania with much lower travel costs.

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Hell – at that distance you would have trouble figuring out which one of my "Western" fingers I was showing you. My rule of thumb – I assume you got a heavy surf rod and 3 ounces of lead. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 200 feet on Yellowstone Lake is pretty damned close….was the lake calm ? Tim, I’ve agreed with you most of the time but 200′ anywhere is not close. Joel Axelrad

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How about boaters/rafters giving a wide berth to waders? I think that is fairly common Western etiquette. It comes to mind because last year I was wading downstream while nymphing on the Big Hole. A guy and his girl float down right next to me, then pull in not 100 ft. below. I was incensed. I said: "can’t you see I’m heading downstream." They call *me* an asshole and then move on. -CB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First, there is no such thing as Western etiquette… The South prety much controls the market on regional etiquette (although there it’s known as "hospitality"). Second, if there was such a thing as Western etiquette, the first rule would be: If you’re in a float tube, and you’re (justly or unjustly) rebuffed by a bank fisherman, politely smile and quickly move on. You’ve no idea what he’s got back in his pickup, and you’re worse than a sitting duck, so you don’t want to escalate the conflict.

Response:

Hey I’m from Wyoming, and the last place you’ll find me is where all them damn tourists who drive 2000 miles to fish some of the published waters in the state. Seems to me that since they drove all that way, they own the water, Well, I’ll just let them have it. I’ll go where the good fishing is and avoid the crowds, the hassel and the small fish.  And yes, my friend avoid the big waters too, makes more since to go for big fish, Don’t ask, I’m not telling

Response:

I just spent a week in Yellowstone Park and am rather confused about etiquette.  Fishing a run on Soda Butte Creek, someone got in at the head of the run, at most 100 feet away, and then his friend got in below me on the same run.  I thought this was very rude, so I drove upstream to another section.   The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?     – Offended in Ohio P.S. I had some marvelous fishing on scenic small streams (in solitude) in the Park.  It occurred to me however, that outside of the occasional 15" cutthroat,  I can have just as much fun fishing scenic small streams in Pennsylvania with much lower travel costs.  

Response:

Given that Yellowstone is the "magnet" that it is for fishermen, it may be an incorrect assumption that these were "Westerners" you were fishing with/against  =) ….. after all, you were from the "East", right???? 8^) It seems that the "bigger" the water) in name and reputation, the bigger the head of the people fishing it… it’s sort of the "Well, dammit…I came x hundred/thousand miles to fish this water and I’m gonna do as I DAMN WELL PLEASE" so, in the middle of the summer…you can expect some of this. As for the scenery to size ratio….personally, I’d take Wyoming over Pennsylvania ANY DAY!! Now, if you wanna REALLY experience some Western Streamside lack of hospitality…try gettin into a Steelhead or Salmon run in California when the bait and metal fishers are out……say on the American or Feather Rivers….maybe the Lower Sacramento or Klamath…..your choice!! Larry #:)#

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just spent a week in Yellowstone Park and am rather confused about etiquette. Fishing a run on Soda Butte Creek, someone got in at the head of the run, at most 100 feet away, and then his friend got in below me on the same run.  I thought this was very rude, so I drove upstream to another section.   The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?    - Offended in Ohio P.S. I had some marvelous fishing on scenic small streams (in solitude) in the Park.  It occurred to me however, that outside of the occasional 15" cutthroat, I can have just as much fun fishing scenic small streams in Pennsylvania with much lower travel costs.   </PRE</HTML

The guys 100′ up and 100′ down were a little close.  Given the crowded condition of Yellowstone, this time of year, you just have to put up with it. Personally I would enter 200-250 yards up or down from another fellow fisher.  The guy that called you an asshole on the lake was the asshole.  200′ away – what was he using for a fishing rig – a cannon? If you want a great Yellowstone experiance – plan to go 2 weeks after Labor Day.  The crowds are reduced by more than half. The fishing pressure is greatly reduced. The traveling around is twice as fast.  You might run into some rough weather but the fishing, in the park,  is great in bad weather. Joel Axelrad

Response:

I knew a Steelhead fisherman that painted an X on a rock and would get so mad when he found someone standing on it that he started taking it home. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Given that Yellowstone is the "magnet" that it is for fishermen, it may be an incorrect assumption that these were "Westerners" you were fishing with/against  =) ….. after all, you were from the "East", right???? 8^) It seems that the "bigger" the water) in name and reputation, the bigger the head of the people fishing it… it’s sort of the "Well, dammit…I came x hundred/thousand miles to fish this water and I’m gonna do as I DAMN WELL PLEASE" so, in the middle of the summer…you can expect some of this. As for the scenery to size ratio….personally, I’d take Wyoming over Pennsylvania ANY DAY!! Now, if you wanna REALLY experience some Western Streamside lack of hospitality…try gettin into a Steelhead or Salmon run in California when the bait and metal fishers are out……say on the American or Feather Rivers….maybe the Lower Sacramento or Klamath…..your choice!! Larry #:)#

Response:

I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?

 Very ignorant, but then he probably felt safe at this distance! — Bill

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When fishing any of the popularcrowdedfamous waters in the West, you’re sure to run into A**H****.  Fly fishing is not a social or team sport and there are no rules or "etiquette" (whatever that is). Ob these pubilicized waters, it often more like going to a Mall on dollar day and trying to fight the crowds for a "bargain." This is ONE of the reasons I personally avoid these waters. The West has alot of lesser known rivers and streams that provide some great fishing away from the crowds. However, these waters are getting harder and harder to find and most are kept "secret."  (See post about To Tell Or Not To Tell) These are very hard to find when travelling unless you do some homework before you go. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just spent a week in Yellowstone Park and am rather confused about etiquette.  Fishing a run on Soda Butte Creek, someone got in at the head of the run, at most 100 feet away, and then his friend got in below me on the same run.  I thought this was very rude, so I drove upstream to another section. The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?     – Offended in Ohio P.S. I had some marvelous fishing on scenic small streams (in solitude) in the Park.  It occurred to me however, that outside of the occasional 15" cutthroat,  I can have just as much fun fishing scenic small streams in Pennsylvania with much lower travel costs.

Response:

I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this? Very ignorant, but then he probably felt safe at this distance!

Very good point Bill… offensiveness is so often directly proportional to distance or percieved invulnerability.  Witness the sad characters who use terms such as ‘pig-headed twit’, ‘eat sh.. and die’ etc in what is supposed to be a sociable forum such as this.  One wonders if they would use the same school-yard insults face to face?  Probably not, as a hearty smack in the mouth can be pretty offensive too, in its own way. We can be nasty little characters, safely closeted away with our computers, or at the other side of a raging river.  Schoolboys even make faces at gigantic ’silverback’ male gorillas – from the other side of the bars, of course. Just the opinion of this birtish ninny. — Stuart Nuttall (Replace ‘nospam’ with ‘warboyz’ to reply by e-mail)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very good point Bill… offensiveness is so often directly proportional to distance or percieved invulnerability.  Witness the sad characters who use terms such as ‘pig-headed twit’, ‘eat sh.. and die’ etc in what is supposed to be a sociable forum such as this.  One wonders if they would use the same school-yard insults face to face?  Probably not, as a hearty smack in the mouth can be pretty offensive too, in its own way. We can be nasty little characters, safely closeted away with our computers, or at the other side of a raging river.  Schoolboys even make faces at gigantic ’silverback’ male gorillas – from the other side of the bars, of course. Just the opinion of this birtish ninny. — Stuart Nuttall (Replace ‘nospam’ with ‘warboyz’ to reply by e-mail)

Thanks for some back-up Stuart. Hey, us birtish ninnies have to stick together! No, seriously though, it just isn’t worth the effort. Ever fish Bewl? Aye, Tony

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Here in New York State, we have some of the most reprehensible streamside behavior there is on the Salmon River.  Enormous crowds will snag fish, litter, blare radios, cut in on spots or even individual fish, pick fistfights or even exchange gunfire.  It is a world class fishery swarmed by bottom class humanity. Let the occasional insult just roll right off you.  It could be far worse. Pete C

Response:

I just spent a week in Yellowstone Park and am rather confused about etiquette. Fishing a run on Soda Butte Creek, someone got in at the head of the run, at most 100 feet away, and then his friend got in below me on the same run.  I thought this was very rude, so I drove upstream to another section.

it was likely the intent to drive you off the run. I’ve experienced the same. Two or three fishing buddies think they can intimidate you off the water. Best thing to do is leave. The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.  Is there some widely accepted protocol on this?

the accepted protocol is don’t come  any closer than 2 maximum cast lengths or about 150 feet (give or take) – so the fella’ in question was likely suffering from a mild case of caffine poisoning. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

[deleted] The next day I float-tubed Yellowstone Lake.  I gave adequately wide berth to a shore fisherman, passing him 200 feet out and not even casting, and he called me an asshole.

[deleted] 200 feet on Yellowstone Lake is pretty damned close….was the lake calm ? Was it clear ? You probably *did* spook his fishing to some degree….was it necessary to pass that close ?  Why ?  Remember, this guy was on vacation too man. But, you asked…is there a western ettiquette ? If there is one, it would have to be that we haven’t quite given in to the notion of fishing in a crowd. What seems like a lot of room to you is ‘butt-buddy’ close out here.  Like I said…Lake Yellowstone is HUGE (how many miles of shoreline…? How many anglers on the shore ?) You come flippin through within a couple of hundred feet and it ‘feels’ like you’re crawling up ‘em. And then there *is* the current politics.  Many bait and lure anglers out here feel (VERY JUSTIFIED IMO) that the flyfishing/float tubing/Orvis Wearing/Jeep Driving/Catch and Release Angling contingent is the bassmaster ruination of the sport (Western Flyfishing).  These guys just took it out on you. There it is.  Unabashed support for the shore angler and a Western etiquette. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

I knew a Steelhead fisherman that painted an X on a rock and would get so mad when he found someone standing on it that he started taking it home.

at least he knew what mattered most to him … or perhaps he wanted to cook up a good "Stone Soup"? Is there a bridge here between the endless c&r c&k dialectic? Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

My rule of thumb: if possible, Two of my casts plus one of his casts distance between me and him. Using this rule, you would both have to cast 60 – 70 feet. Not likely. FlyFisherRay

Response:

Question:

Would any of you out there in ff-land help me with an address, email, URL for an artist who has published ff art on the chat group and elsewhere.  He has done a number of pieces which are very interesting.  His last name begins with "Whitar….".  If you know of this artist, please send me his email address, WWW URL address, etc.

Response:

Would any of you out there in ff-land help me with an address, email, URL for an artist who has published ff art on the chat group and elsewhere.  He has done a number of pieces which are very interesting.  His last name begins with "Whitar….".  If you know of this artist, please send me his email address, WWW URL address, etc.

The only person that I can think of that has a web site with flyfishing art is Mark Vinsel (sp?). John Fereira

Response:

Question:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?   Really ?

What would anyone do with a ’starving’ fish –  bury it in their garden to fertilize the tomatoes? Feed it to the cat? Cat might not eat it! Ralph H

Response:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?   Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO.

Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask? Frankly I’m surprised you have any time left to actually fish – if you actually *do* fish… /dave

Response:

For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul Marriner

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW.

Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

Response:

Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation.

But… When you’re fishing a hatch, you play the fish buring one of those *brief* periods when food is abundant.  If the sprint around the block is always at diinertime, and the food is gone by the time you return, it can add up. I’m not saying, "don’t fish," I’m just saying that there are impacts involved in c&r, just like any style of fishing.   (Besides, during a heavy hatch, it can be a lot of fun to lean the rod against a tree and watch the fish work, without trying to catch them. Can improve your fishing, too.) CQ

Response:

A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you?  

Not when a hatch is on.  High country fish can be very selective then. It makes sense for a trout to become selective when mayflies are hatching because it’s a temporary abundance.   The nymphs, baitfish, et al, will still be there after the hatch is over. CQ

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

Sorry Tim I think this little bit of work from your imagination is a clunker. But then nobody bats 100. I posted my reponses previously so won’t repeat them. hope you don’t mind me asking but did you base this on any study or work that shows fish in those alpine streams you fish are so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have shrunken concave bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

Sorry time but IMO this work from your imagination is a clunker. I’ve posted my responses elsewhere and won’t repeat them. However let me ask did you base this post on any kind of study on the alpine streams in your area that indicated the fish were so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving; it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have concave shrunken bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H

Response:

: That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish.   : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?   I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.

Response:

A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours.  I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds.  Slightly less than a

Good Grief!  What kind of rod could he have been using.  I have landed steelhead this size on a 4 wt. rod in less than 20 minutes.  Three and a half hours is torture! -Burton

Response:

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW

 Nah…I just wanted to remind you that there are bigger fish to fry.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways.

Ok then.  What I am hearing… Our [flyfishermen's] definition of the ethics of catch and release… "We may cause indiscriminate harm to a wild animal, so long as the animal does not normally  die as a result, in our search for happiness.  Our metric will only include mortality and  will not include incidental suffering or non-fatal injury" Or, something like that… I laugh at our free usage of the term ‘respect’ for a wild animal.  It is really, really laughable (if it weren’t so sad).   Wham !!! Set the Hook !!!! Wham, Lay the rod into it !! she’s runnin’ for the rapids…then this thoughtful ‘respectful’ release…sometimes with an accompanying little kiss on the lips.  Respect ?  I don’t think so.  Cause for self-congratulation, perhaps. TimW

Response:

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…

Finally the real meat of the issues. Isn’t it time we humans get a little more ,NO! a lot more involve with the issues of rectifying and push for the preservation of our current watersheds. When their all gone who will be there to make new ones? The issues may vary from state to state, but they are the sum of all the parts. Trout are a good indicator for water quality and the quality of life to which we an ultimately attached. Seems to me that a new thread needs to be started here. Our fingers are dancing on the very tools that could start a very positive movement. What do you say guys? How about it, Tim, George, and Al? On another sad note, my ISP really sucks and I only receive less than half of the news posting and feel like a mushroom on lost thread portions. If anybody felt like CC me on your postings I would sure appreciate it. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ? Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask?

I’ll be happy when the popularity of the sport subsides by say, 80%.  I’ll be patting myself on the back all the way down to the deep run behind Pat’s rock, which will be devoid of people and clogged with fish. TimW

Response:

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW

OK Tim, You were reading my mind. What are we playing with here, threads, fish, or environmental action? Isn’t it time we all get involved. Where do I sign up? It’s time to give something back. Please make note to CC, my ISP really sucks. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

Tim pardon me but this is vapour ware to the nth degree. You’re expounding proifically on a hypothetical situation about which nothing is known. Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation. If you’re going to fabricate something please at least make it credible and believable. from Your Biggest fan Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae.  What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW

Response:

The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  

A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you?   Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ?

(I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?

It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been.  It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What?   If it was an overcrowded stream, you’re right.  If there are so many fish in the creek that the one you just caught is starving, kill and eat it.   That population sounds like it needs to be thinned, in my no-expert opinion.  A lot of the higher streams I’ve fished have what seem to be normal numbers of fish – they are healthy, active, and not swarming all over each other.  I’d imagine that at least some of them have native fish, and they *are* all wild fish.  There seems to be plenty of food. The only fish I’ll take out of a small, highish creek around here are brook trout or the rare brown; no cutts or rainbows.  I don’t feel bad about that, because these fish aren’t monsters and they are generally not starving.  The fight is quick and one-sided, and they are undoubtedly more stunned than exhausted when it’s over.  Of any trout, these are the ones I like to lay eyes on the most.  C&K seems like a bad idea to have catch on when it comes to these streams.   If you fish a heavier rod while practicing C&R, you release a healthier fish but probably shouldn’t call it ’sport.’  If you fish a really light, sporting rod; play the trout for ten minutes; kill, keep, and eat it, you have a fish that tastes bad. I don’t call what I do with those little cutts and redsides ’sport,’ and the brook trout I keep are delicious. The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc.   Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most.  In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TimW

Response:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?

No.

Response:

The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. I don’t get it.  Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one?

because the midges are abundant thr fish gains more calories than it expends by feeding exclusively on midges and ignoring the sculpin. It’s a hypothesis used to explain selectivity Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water?  Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from?  You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!?

It’s not my idea. No I don’t mean they are confused. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. You’re right, that didn’t make any sense.  It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast.  The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less.   So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip.  They don’t have to budget their energy, really.  I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it.

Salmon don’t always make a one way trip. Atlantics and steelhead usually return to the sea. Also salmon don’t stare to death they are genetically programed to die after spawning. Some stocks that are as sea fat as other go only a few yrds above tide water. Pacific salmon die of multiple organ failure that can’t simply be explain by starvation. Also genetically they can make the switch from salt to fresh water only once. The die off could be an adaption to transfer rich ocean nutrients to their native streams and enhance their offsprings chances for survival. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. That’s true.  It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow.  If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. Ralph H

Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No.

You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?  Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…

Response:

The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom.

I don’t get it.  Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one?  Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water?  Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from?  You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!? (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying.

You’re right, that didn’t make any sense.  It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast.  The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less.   So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip.  They don’t have to budget their energy, really.  I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it. if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out.

That’s true.  It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow.  If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ralph H

Response:

Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  

A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours.  I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds.  Slightly less than a half hour a pound… Phil

Response:

A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  

The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. You’re right a starving fish is unlikley to be selective. (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.)

what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out.

if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been.  It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What?   [snip] The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc.

This bugs me too and I think many have pushed the light tackle envelope too far, way too far. Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most.  In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

Ralph H

Response:

The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae.  What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW

Response:

Question:

Does anyone have any experiance with them? I am in the process of building a Thomas and Thomas 8wt 3 piece and I was thinking about what guides to use. You say T&T doesnt make those blanks? Yeah I know, but a buddy of mine pulled a few strings and it is going to be a special item. Anyway, I need some advice on the Titanium Nitride guides, are they worth the money? Are the a pain in the ass the put on? Any problems? Thanks….. -Mike

Response:

Does anyone have any experiance with them? I am in the process of building a Thomas and Thomas 8wt 3 piece and I was thinking about what guides to use. You say T&T doesnt make those blanks? Yeah I know, but a buddy of mine pulled a few strings and it is going to be a special item. Anyway, I need some advice on the Titanium Nitride guides, are they worth the money? Are the a pain in the ass the put on? Any problems? Thanks….. -Mike

I put a set of PacBay TN guides on an 8 weight I built on a Powell blank. Aesthetically very nice, the the finish is now wearing off the tip (after 4 yrs.). I can’t really tell you I noticed a big performance difference, not like going from snake guides to single foot SICs. They are more corrosion resistant, though IMO if you clean your rod properly this shouldn’t be a huge deal. They go on the same as any guide :- I think if I were to build myself a real top of the line designer rod I’d use TN guides as well a TN reelseat (Clemens and Orvis have them) because I think they look pretty slick. There are many brands of TN guides now, you want to check as many as possible. The cheaper ones may wear off faster. I believe one of the saltwater ff mags had a review on titanium components a few months ago. I’ll try to find it tonite…                                                 jc

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   any experiance with them? I am in the process of  building a Thomas and Thomas 8wt 3 piece and I was thinking about what  guides to use.  Anyway, I need some advice on the Titanium Nitride guides, are they worth  the money? Are the a pain in the ass the put on? Any problems?  Thanks…..  -Mike  Hi  If your design includes gold hardware; reelseat, guides, tiptop, etc.  you’ll get a beauty of a rod. I use T/N stuff on my rods and notice  appreciative stares from others.  Haven’t got any bad news about ‘em either. – six years later.  –  Thanks,  J.P.Erwin – System Tech – Network Surveilance  Views expressed here are MINE – nobody else dares to open their yap!

Hello Mike,  I used TN guides on a Sage RPL I did last year.  I used the guides along with a gold Powell reel seat and got a nice look.  The gold appearance is not that gaudy.  I’m hoping for good durability. Jeff

Response:

Does anyone have any experiance with them? I am in the process of building a Thomas and Thomas 8wt 3 piece and I was thinking about what guides to use. You say T&T doesnt make those blanks? Yeah I know, but a buddy of mine pulled a few strings and it is going to be a special item. Anyway, I need some advice on the Titanium Nitride guides, are they worth the money? Are the a pain in the ass the put on? Any problems? Thanks….. -Mike There is also a black TN guide set (at least I think it is TN) that is

really hard and looks good.  I use them for the stealth factor.  Have em on two rods and they appear to be pretty good.  Have only used them for about a season at this point, but they got hard use.  No grooving to date, unlike the set they replaced.

Response:

If TiN coating is used as a wear preventative on so many drills, reamers and carbide metal cutting tools, I would think it would be an excellent finish for guides.

Response:

: -Mike There is also a black TN guide set (at least I think it is TN) that is : really hard and looks good.  I use them for the stealth factor.  Have em What exactly is the stealth factor?  Are we now involved in all out war? In order to combat the fisherman with radar and motors on their float tubes, the trout have established hidden "listening posts" to detect the presence of fisherman topside?   Titanium nitride has a low radar cross section, so the stealthy fisherman goes undetected? Just wondering.

First, I lied.  They’re not TiN, they are DLC guides from Hopkins and Holloway.  They’re still good. By stealth factor, I mean that they are black, so they reflect less light and thus spook fewer fish.   Now, I do have composite wrapping on the drift boat to keep the radar signature down…

Response:

I’m looking for any comparisons between the Sage RPL in 4 and 5 weight and the Orvis PM 10 in 4 and 5 weight. If you’ve tried either one or both, give me your thoughts on what they do best, advantages, disadvantages and any other thoughts. I’ll be trying them both real soon to build up from the blank.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : -Mike There is also a black TN guide set (at least I think it is TN) that is : really hard and looks good.  I use them for the stealth factor.  Have em What exactly is the stealth factor?  Are we now involved in all out war? In order to combat the fisherman with radar and motors on their float tubes, the trout have established hidden "listening posts" to detect the presence of fisherman topside?   Titanium nitride has a low radar cross section, so the stealthy fisherman goes undetected? Just wondering. First, I lied.  They’re not TiN, they are DLC guides from Hopkins and Holloway.  They’re still good. By stealth factor, I mean that they are black, so they reflect less light and thus spook fewer fish.   Now, I do have composite wrapping on the drift boat to keep the radar signature down…

May I suggest an inflatable for total stealth ? As far as low reflection guides go, I had pretty good luck with the Perfection ‘EZ Flow’. Oversized and a nice grey color. Think I gotta do something about my chartreuse fishing hat though…

Response:

First, I lied.  They’re not TiN, they are DLC guides from Hopkins and Holloway.  They’re still good. By stealth factor, I mean that they are black, so they reflect less light and thus spook fewer fish. Now, I do have composite wrapping on the drift boat to keep the radar signature down… May I suggest an inflatable for total stealth ? As far as low reflection guides go, I had pretty good luck with the Perfection ‘EZ Flow’. Oversized and a nice grey color. Think I gotta do something about my chartreuse fishing hat though…

I hope those aren’t the same grey guides I got some time back form Anglers Workshop.  They were supposed to be teflon coated and real slick.  Well, they were, until they got all grooved up.  They were way soft.  That’s why I got the DLC guides I referred to.   Bear in mind I’m tough on guides.  I fish from a boat most of the time, and sand and grit gets all over the line.  A better recipe for destroying guides could not be found.

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I’m looking for any comparisons between the Sage RPL in 4 and 5 weight and the Orvis PM 10 in 4 and 5 weight. If you’ve tried either one or both, give me your thoughts on what they do best, advantages, disadvantages and any other thoughts. I’ll be trying them both real soon to build up from the blank.

Kevin, I built an Orvis PM10 4pc 4wt last year, and unfortunately I’ve been pretty disappointed with it’s performance. The rod throws nice tight loops for casts out to about 60′ (using a Cortland 444 Lazerline WF4W) but for anything beyond 60′ the rod just feels overloaded and "mushy" (i.e. not crisp). I also built an Orvis PM10 4pc 8wt and can throw it about 90′ before the same "mushy" feeling sets in, so I’m sure that some of my impression is biased by the lighter line weight. I’m now in the process of building a GLoomis IMX 4pc 5wt and have great hopes for it. The rod feels *much* stiffer throug- out it’s length than do any of the Orvis rods I’ve built, but I’m reserving final judgement until I’ve had a chance to finish the project and get the rod out to the local casting ponds. Unfortunately, I have no experience with the Sage RPL in 4 and 5 wt, so I really can’t give any feedback on that series. Best of luck with whatever you decide, Fred

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First, I lied.  They’re not TiN, they are DLC guides from Hopkins and Holloway.  They’re still good. By stealth factor, I mean that they are black, so they reflect less light and thus spook fewer fish. Now, I do have composite wrapping on the drift boat to keep the radar signature down… May I suggest an inflatable for total stealth ? As far as low reflection guides go, I had pretty good luck with the Perfection ‘EZ Flow’. Oversized and a nice grey color. Think I gotta do something about my chartreuse fishing hat though… I hope those aren’t the same grey guides I got some time back form Anglers Workshop.  They were supposed to be teflon coated and real slick.  Well, they were, until they got all grooved up.  They were way soft.  That’s why I got the DLC guides I referred to.   Bear in mind I’m tough on guides.  I fish from a boat most of the time, and sand and grit gets all over the line.  A better recipe for destroying guides could not be found.

Hmm, I’ll have to check them. If they’re teflon coated I didn’t know it when I bought them :- Mine were on a Fisher 10 wgt. used mostly on surf and jetties in N.E., like you I’m rough on tackle (the rod is now broken . I originally had SICs on the rod, but switched to snakes to accomodate the heavy heads I like to throw. On my other rods, my black PacBays on my 11 weight have held up extremely well, fishing surf 3-4 times/week May- Oct. for 2 years. My PacBay TNs have begun to wear after about 4 years. The SICs, though ugly, have held up well for me too. Also, the single foot takes less time to wrap, which is important for me this time ‘cos I have to build the rod between the screams/needs/etc. of a 3 mo. old ! Fast is good, ja. I tend to cycle through rods pretty fast, slipping on jetties, etc. tends to beat them up good, so often the guides don’t get a chance to wear out !                                                         jc

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: I’m looking for any comparisons between the Sage RPL in 4 and 5 weight : and the Orvis PM 10 in 4 and 5 weight. If you’ve tried either one or : both, give me your thoughts on what they do best, advantages, : disadvantages and any other thoughts. I’ll be trying them both real soon : to build up from the blank. Hi Kevin,    I read a follow on post about the Orvis PM 10 and thought I’d mention my thoughts about the RPL (and the LLB) series. I have a 586 RPL and a 790 RPL and love them both. They are what the RPL stands for: Reserve Power Line. Wonderful line throwers. Now on the other hand, My wife has a 4711 LLB and I have just finished a 490 LLB and they are too soft for my arm. I have great difficulty casting with them. My wife, however, wouldn’t give her’s up. It is light and does a great job for her.    Two of my daugherts also have 586 RPL(s) and they swear by them. It is a very easy rod to cast. lukn4fish — Bob San Jose, Ca

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I’m looking for any comparisons between the Sage RPL in 4 and 5 weight and the Orvis PM 10 in 4 and 5 weight. If you’ve tried either one or both, give me your thoughts on what they do best, advantages, disadvantages and any other thoughts. I’ll be trying them both real soon to build up from the blank.

Hi Kevin, I have cast and fished with both the Sage and Orvis 5wt. rods you mentioned. The RPL in my opinion is the all around better of the two.  Both are very fine rods; However,  the Sage has more backbone and will throw a tighter loop.  The chioce is yours as to which rod is better for you.  I prefer a very fast rod.  Some people like to have a slightly slower,  softer rod.  The fast action of the RPL is somewhat unforgiving when you use light tippets. I suggest that you fish with both before purchasing.  A day on the stream with a rod will give you much more information than casting one or the other at a fly shop. Good luck,  let me know what you think of both. Bryan Bonds White River Anglers http://www.ipa.net/~bbonds Fayetteville,  Ar

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I’m looking for any comparisons between the Sage RPL in 4 and 5 weight and the Orvis PM 10 in 4 and 5 weight. If you’ve tried either one or both, give me your thoughts on what they do best, advantages, disadvantages and any other thoughts. I’ll be trying them both real soon to build up from the blank.

Hi Kevin, I’ve tried both before buying the PM-10 9′ 5wt 2 pce. Depending on your preferences in a rod both are very nice rods. The RPL is a somewhat stiffer rod, very nice casting (even beyond 75′) but when you hook a moderate sized trout the PM-10 gives you more pleasure. Recently I bought a Sage LL 590-3 instead of the PM-10. Its casting is about in between the RPL and the PM-10. Above all it gives a lot more fun when playing a moderate sized trout. Finally : When distance is your main goal, buy a RPL 590 or even better SP+ 590. when performance is your goal, buy PM-10, LL 590 (3) or SP 590 (3). Succes,  Ger.

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Kevin, I can’t speak about the Orvis– However, I have fished with a Sage RPL 8ft for a 4 for many years.  I have fished the West Branch of the Ausable to the Madison.  I have never been disapointed with the rod.  I’ve caught everything from  bluegills to landlocked salmon with it and it has been a pleasure.  Tight loops, distance,  and when needed a delicate feel. I also own two Orvis Rods.  A green mountain and a far and fine.  Neither of these rods are worth the money I spent on them.  They hang on my wall while I fish with my Sage rods. In my opinion there is no comparison.  Fish with the Sage! Mike

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You should try these rods yourself and see which ones cast best for you.  We all have different casting styles and preferences.

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I’m looking for any comparisons between the Sage RPL in 4 and 5 weight and the Orvis PM 10 in 4 and 5 weight. If you’ve tried either one or both, give me your thoughts on what they do best, advantages, disadvantages and any other thoughts. I’ll be trying them both real soon to build up from the blank.

Kevin, Can’t help with the Sage rods, but can speak form experience about the PM-10’s.  I personally fish with the PM-10 865-4 (8 1/2 ft. 5 wt. 4 pc.) and the rod fits me perfectly. I love it.  The tip is very delicate and the rod loads and casts easily up close as well as having plenty of power to boom out the entire line if I need to. As you cast more and more line, the rod very smoothly and predictably flexes farther and farther down the blank with no sudden stops or hinges.  It became available this year in a 9ft. version for a little better line control, but I still like the 8 1/2ft.  We use the PM10 905 in our fly fishing schools and it is also superb.  Same light tip with plenty of power but I prefer the way the 4 pc. casts over the 2pc.  One of those things about buying top quality shoes and they’re all good, but this one’s really comfortable.  The PM10 904 is a little smoother IMHO than the 905 but doesn’t have as much power.  If  you