Question:

I really don’t want to jump into this fray, you state in your thread that there are 1/2 a million registered and even more unregistered ORV’s. First, shame on those who don’t register their ORV’s.  I have to subsidize this activity with higher local taxes for lost revenues on their illegal activity.

Hi David,  First, there is absolutely no requirement to register OHVs as far as I know. The only registrations are from new vehicle purchases, where the vehicle is registered to allow warranty recording and for insurance purposes. Some states require registration fees to operate in some riding areas – but that’s all. If I buy a used dirt motorcycle or ATV, which is not street-legal, there is NO requirement to register it, nor is there a place TO register it. So accusing someone of not doing what you are uninformed about is a moot point. Second, 40 million people hike each year, and 24 million camp according to current available data, making hiking the number one outdoor activity and camping number five — these stats add up A LOT more than 1/2 a million and even more than 5 million if I assume that 90% of active ORV’s are unregistered.

First, there are nearly the same number of motorcycles and ATVs in this country as the number of hikers you note. The 1/2 million ORV number is units purchased every year. Second, the camping number would include ORVers, so could not be used as an argument against ORVs as you attempt. Third, when I go riding, I see almost NO hikers, ever. It isn’t that hikers are hiding from me as I go by as Jeff would have you believe, it’s simply that there are not as many people actually hiking as claimed. If many more ORV’s are going unregistered…what does that say about the caliber of character of the owners?  Does this mean I don’t have to register my car anymore?  My boat?

ORVs are not street legal, your car is. ORVs do not operate on the water, therefore no boating registration required. Are you really so uninformed that you don’t know that an ATV does not need a license plate? BTW — I’m not a total moron,

I didn’t say you were, just hard to believe you’d accuse ORVers of "not paying for registrations" when none is required. II am sure some states do not require any registration of ORV’s and I am not for the complete removal of them.

Thanks buddy! Ron

Response:

… Second, 40 million people hike each year, and 24 million camp according to current available data, making hiking the number one outdoor activity and camping number five — these stats add up A LOT more than 1/2 a million and even more than 5 million if I assume that 90% of active ORV’s are unregistered. First, there are nearly the same number of motorcycles and ATVs in this country as the number of hikers you note. The 1/2 million ORV number is units purchased every year.

… You are such a lying sack of shit, Ron! (Oops! Now Ron von Braun, the self-described rocket scientist, is going to call me Jeff Vandeman again, because, when people disagree with me, I call them "liars.") You say above that there are 40 million "(off-road) motorcycles and ATVs in this country," meaning the USA, and you say above that 1/2 million are purchased every year. Right? Right. Read it yourself. So, even if there was no ramp-up to current sales levels, it would have taken 80 years to reach that number of units in the country (40 million / 1/2 million per year = 80 years). That, of course, assumes that every single unit sold since 1920 is still tearing up the trail. Jeez-Louise, Ron! You are the worst liar I have ever seen. The WORST!! You don’t even agree with yourself. Maybe YOU are Ron Vandeman. Dontchano, you could end all of this humiliation and damage to the cause of getting you boys some good sacrafice land, by closing that Wiseguys’ Book of Truths (WBT), and starting to speak English, and with some integrity. However, if you really must tough it out, remember that it isn’t enough to follow:    - "Don’t be modest with your lies," WBT 5:3 at html://home.pacbell.net/orbs/wbt.html#5-3    - "Assert numbers," WBT 5:10 at html://home.pacbell.net/orbs/wbt.html#5-10. You must also observe:    - "Avoid facts and logic," WBT 5:14 at html://home.pacbell.net/orbs/wbt.html#5-14. And, if you check out the ever popular "Never admit to your lie," WBT 5:5 at html://home.pacbell.net/orbs/wbt.html#5-5, I guess you won’t be replying to this 80-year lie, will you, Ron? Yuk yuk yuk. 80 years, indeed. You boys are sooooooooo lame. — Jeff ORBS Classifieds – Free outdoor classified ads     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs ORBS Escrow – Affordable safety for online buyers and sellers     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs/oe-homepage.html

Response:

Jeff the truth-twister again: You are such a lying sack of shit, Ron! and Jeez-Louise, Ron! You are the worst liar I have ever seen. The WORST!!

I cannot type here what I think of you, Jeff, however I can tell you that the absolute biggest untruths are on your page (the "WBT" page), and those of you trying to invent conflicts between trail users. You say above that there are 40 million "(off-road) motorcycles and ATVs in this country," meaning the USA, and you say above that 1/2 million are purchased every year. Right? Right. Read it yourself. So, even if there was no ramp-up to current sales levels, it would have taken 80 years to reach that number of units in the country (40 million / 1/2 million per year = 80 years). That, of course, assumes that every single unit sold since 1920 is still tearing up the trail.

I see. So this, even tho: A person can buy used and it will not be recorded A person can buy more than one OHV per year A person can buy a 4X4 pickup, but you forgot to add those A person can buy a 4X4 SUV, but you forgot to add those For instance, one person – me, owns 17 OHVs, all by myself! I have numerous friends who own as many OHVs as myself, which is kinda the norm (owning more than one OHV per person or household). You just hate the fact that there may be AN AWFUL LOT OF US OHVers, don’t you!?! And more coming every year! But, to prove myself, I’ll dig up some statistics and post ‘em, as I want to find out more precise numbers myself. Your worst enemy, Ron

Response:

… I cannot type here what I think of you, Jeff,

I couldn’t care less what you think of me, Ron. This isn’t about anyone’s hysteria. It’s about facts and logic, and about influencing the backcountry recreation policy of the US Park Service, Forest Service, and Bureau of Land Management. But, if it means that much to you to express yourself, just spit it out. What’s one more count? You have already assaulted me twice, probably three times — they’re in deja.com and the other archiving services for any public prosecutor to read. You probably can plea bargain four counts down to concurrent sentences, anyway. however I can tell you that the absolute biggest untruths are on your page (the "WBT" page)

… Instead of passing the usual gas, why don’t you:      [1] quote just a dozen verses from the Wiseguys’ Book of Truths (http://home.pacbell.net/orbs/wbt.html) with which you disagree,      [2] disavow each of them separately, saying unequivocally that only a real dirtball would employ such democracy-defeating sleaze, and      [3] challenge me to post even one rec.backcountry quote in which you employed the Wiseguy wisdom in each verse which you have disavowed. If what you have said above is true, that should be easy enough. So post it or zip it, Ron. Post it or zip it. Your worst enemy, Ron

I’m not intimidated at all by your would-be bullying,      Ron Brabander, last known address      400 Lakeshore Dr      North Sioux City, SD 57049      Phone: 605-232-8961      (name and address to be confirmed by subpoena to America Online)      (address to be confirmed by subpoena to South Dakota unemployment department) last known employer      Gateway Computers      (photo in personnel file, available by subpoena) You’ve got me confused with someone else, Ron — someone who gives a rat’s ass about your silly opinion of me and someone who can’t return suppressing fire across his front porch until the uniformed police arrive. BTW, Ron Brabander, are you ready to have that gratuitous "Your worst enemy" closing read to your jury? Think about it … then get a grip. Don’t fantasize a personal feud from a backcountry recreation policy discussion. You can’t win the feud either. —— Examples of Ron Brabander’s threats of battery follow —— … Jeff, you are a real loser. Let me know if you want to meet and have me tell you that in person. Ron

Dennis Harris intolerantly says: … and YOU need to get over it, get off the machines, and get some exercise to work off your lard butts.   Lets meet so you can say this to my face. I’ll change your mind about ORV users being lard butts in a big hurry. … Ron

—- End threats —- — Jeff ORBS Classifieds – Free outdoor classified ads     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs ORBS Escrow – Affordable safety for online buyers and sellers     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs/oe-homepage.html

Response:

"…I see, so you feel well over half a million registered (and many more unregistered) ORV…" I really don’t want to jump into this fray, you state in your thread that there are 1/2 a million registered and even more unregistered ORV’s. First, shame on those who don’t register their ORV’s.  I have to subsidize this activity with higher local taxes for lost revenues on their illegal activity. Second, 40 million people hike each year, and 24 million camp according to current available data, making hiking the number one outdoor activity and camping number five — these stats add up A LOT more than 1/2 a million and even more than 5 million if I assume that 90% of active ORV’s are unregistered. If many more ORV’s are going unregistered…what does that say about the caliber of character of the owners?  Does this mean I don’t have to register my car anymore?  My boat?  Paying for those registrations may have made the government backdown on these issues.  Hurt the government in their wallets, they will go for the jugular – no way to enforce registration, ban operation outright on government/public lands.  Seems as through the community is causing it’s own problems. BTW — I’m not a total moron, I am sure some states do not require any registration of ORV’s and I am not for the complete removal of them.  They serve their purpose – and presently there are more miles of ORV trails then roads in the United States…

Response:

Jeff Mick gets mad with: This isn’t about anyone’s hysteria. It’s about facts and logic, and about influencing the backcountry recreation policy of the US Park Service, Forest Service, and Bureau of Land Management.

Yes it is, Jeff. But in your attempts to influence the public through this forum, you have shown nothing but untruths twisted to fit your agenda, which I have taken issue with. What facts? What logic? All you have done is proven you can sink lower than I. Don’t fantasize a personal feud from a backcountry recreation policy discussion. You can’t win the feud either.

Then why haven’t you trotted out for discussion even one "fact" that shows ORV use really is harmful? Because I would win? Then Jeff threatens me with: assaulted public prosecutor subpoena police jury

So, Marshall Dillpickle, will I be hung by the neck until dead, dead, dead? Ron

Response:

Following up my own post. Then Jeff threatens me with: assaulted public prosecutor subpoena police jury

After worrying about this overnight, I’ve decided that this is scary. Posting my info on the internet is too. Bailing out of this newsgroup like a big chicken, Ron

Response:

I’ve decided that this is scary. Posting my info on the internet is too. Bailing out of this newsgroup like a big chicken,

Yea, but trip reports, gear opinions and other moderate brief discussions on BC topics shouldn’t be a concern for any of us.  I’m adding ORV to my filter list for r.b.  Some of us will never agree, and that’s fine, life goes on as we pursue our own favorite activities and support our own special interest groups. — Breathe in deep powder, exhale bad turns. -Victor’s Stony Yoga kknisely at parkcity dot com

Response:

Following up my own post. Then Jeff threatens me with: assaulted public prosecutor subpoena police jury After worrying about this overnight, I’ve decided that this is scary. Posting my info on the internet is too. Bailing out of this newsgroup like a big chicken, Ron

The criminal justice process SHOULD be threatening and scary to someone like Ron. He is both easy to find and a slam dunk conviction for any brand new assistant district attorney. Considering the repeated threats of physical beatings which he has made to me and others on rec.backcountry in the last several days, being scared is an unexpected flash of good judgement by Ron. If anyone cares to see the post which Ron’s self-serving editing boiled down to the quote above, check deja com at    - In the subject  box, paste the subject of this thread, <Re: Action alert -ORVs are the best!,    - in the Forum box, paste the name of this newsgroup, <rec.backcountry    - click the Search bar    - click on Thread (near the upper left corner)    - open the message from me dated 02/01/00 (Msg 6), and there you have it. Ron’s total lack of integrity when quoting and replying to newsgroup messages is the one of his many character defects which I will miss least. On the matter of (me, Jeff) "Posting (Ron’s) info on the internet is (scary) too.", let’s be clear about the facts:    [1] I’ve been patient with Ron, because he was the ideal vehicle (no pun intended) for exposing Wiseguy-speak vocabulary and tactics. I couldn’t have fashioned a better sock puppet if sockpuppetry were my style.    [2] Ron introduced the meat space dimension to a previously cyber space discussion, when he repeatedly threatened beatings and shared his fantasy about me being hit by a truck and badly injured (see deja.com thread above, Msg 1, last line).    [3] Having introduced the meat space dimension, Ron apparently balked at including his meat space identity, which he knows is needed by law enforcement to apprehend him.    [4] Ron, not I (Jeff), posted his apprehension info to the Internet. For example, he posted his last name several times (search dated 6/15/99). For another example, look up "Ron Brabander" in Infospace.com at http://www.infospace.com/. (There are a lot of better ways to find meat space info on the Web, but these are a couple of the baby-talk ways.) There is a lot of cross-confirming info which points (almost) conclusively to Ron Brabander as previously identified. IMPORTANT: Of course, there still is a tiny, tiny chance that post, so confirmation is absolutely required before any meat space action, to protect an innocent person. In summary, Ron has shown himself to be a man of zero integrity, a failed bully, a world-class blowhard, and finally a whiner. Until Mel disappears, so we need another gimme to illustrate Wiseguy-speak, I won’t miss Ron at all. YMMV. But, I really doubt that Ron is gone from rec.backcountry. I, for one, expect to see a new poster from AOL within a couple of hours using an AOL screen name including words like share, American, freedom, or similar Wiseguy-speak. A skunk can’t change his stripe. Still, I hope he retreats from rec.backcountry to some Wiseguy newsgroup, thereby simultaneously raising the average intelligence and level of discourse in both newsgroups. — Jeff ORBS Classifieds – Free outdoor classified ads     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs ORBS Escrow – Affordable safety for online buyers and sellers     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs/oe-homepage.html

Response:

I say again, Give this cutesie salutation crap a rest, Ron.

Sure Jeff Vandeman, I’ll get right on that. Heh heh. Well, Dr. von Braun, it looks like you have been under a rocket once too many

times without your hard hat. Gosh, that’s pretty funny Jeff. For you, anyway. That is evidenced by the fact that you are ignoring the Wiseguy’s Book of

Truths’ advice to avoid discussion of facts (because you will certainly lose) at http://home.pacbell.net/orbs/wbt.html#5-8. There are no facts on that site. I checked. The 95% number, which you deny above, is about half way down the Forest Service page at http://www.srs.fs.fed.us/strategicplan/view_and_submit_comment.asp?ID=18. I quote, "Almost 95 percent of the U.S. population that is 16 years old and

older participate in some form of outdoor recreation. The most popular outdoor recreation activities (measured in number of days) are walking, nonconsumptive wildlife activities, biking, sightseeing, nonpool swimming, fishing, family gathering, and picnicking." All of the activities stated by the Forest Service are what you Wiseguys would call "hiking" Swimming is hiking? No. Fishing is hiking? No. You are a nut case? YOU BETCHA! You will note two things in the Forest Service information above: [1] all of

the "most popular outdoor recreation activities" are naturally-quiet, naturally-paced activities (except perhaps some part of the undefined "biking"), and [2] no off-road RVing is included there, though it is explicitly tracked by the Forest Service. Could off-road RVing be a fringe activity for a few sociopathic misfits in search of disapproval from parental figures? Naaaah. I see, so you feel well over half a million registered (and many more unregistered) ORV owners are "sociopathic misfits", because they just won’t do what you want them to do. It’s great that you prove to all that you are truly a wacko, exactly like your brother Mike Vandeman. I don’t expect you to reply to this, Ron, much less with an apology and a

"Thank you for the education." BWAA HA HA HA! Speaking of funny stuff, I heard where Jeff used to be a girl, until she had the operation. You know, an "Addadicktome". But I do expect you to sooner or later realize that Wisguy-speak doesn’t fly

here or at the Forest Service. I see, you speak for the entire US Forest Service, now. Um, do they know that? Have a nice day, rocket scientist.

Watch out for that truck Jeff! Ooh, too late. What a mess. Ron

Response:

Question:

Chris,    It is difficult to tail a member of the trout family because their tail is not rigid.  Members of the salmon family are easy to tail. Ernie for all my advice, you should have seen me in practice this morning <G.  had a difficult time tailing a fish and when i finally did, it broke me off right there and shot away.  the way things go sometimes.

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – chris

Response:

Landing steelhead with a double-handed rod has always troubled me. ..

Just break the rod in half – always works for me! RalphH

Response:

I have found that just a plain pair of wool glove allows you to grip the fish’s tail much easier.  Hope this is of help. Kevin

Response:

Chris,    It is difficult to tail a member of the trout family because their tail is not rigid.  Members of the salmon family are easy to tail. Ernie

well, we’ll have to agree to disagree.  i find steelhead much easier to tail than some of the pacific salmon, although they are in the same family as trout and steelhead, maybe you meant the salmo genus. btw, another way to get a handle on the fish is to first grab the leader… yes, sometimes you get cuts on your fingers from doing it.  of course, with all the benfits of a 2-handed rod, landing fish on them without beaching them is one of the drawbacks. chris

Response:

I wouldn’t worry about tailing steelhead I’ve found that they roll on their side and don’t trash. If you back out of the water and lay your rod down and keep tension on the line you can get a hold of the tail and then get your fly out.It’s much easier to release a steelhead than a small trout I haven’t seen anything used to tail a steelhead.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Landing steelhead with a double-handed rod has always troubled me. I have tried to tail them, but my hand is often too small and/or weak to do so. Besides, it seems to take too much time to sufficiently weaken them before trying to tail them. I don’t want to exaust them. So I tend to force the issue as quickly as possible and try to beach them as soon as possible. Most of the time I have been successful in doing so although I have lost a few feisty ones that seemed to hate to touch the beach. I don’t mind losing some; I let all of them go any way afterwards. However, I wonder if beaching them might hurt them. Does anyone have any factual information regarding beaching and health of relatively large fish? Could anyone give me lessons about how to tail them? As much as I love to hook them, I would like to release them safely. Shinji on the Sky well, i don’t think it’s good for a big fish to flop around on rocks and sand, you really want to keep the fish in the water and not have the rocks and sand remove the fish’s slime layer or scales.  i haven’t seen any studies on it, but i believe all info on releasing fish recommends not bringing the fish out of water. what i do is make sure i have some loose line off the reel so that once i tail the fish i can illeviate the line pressure so i don’t break the rod.  i haven’t found that it takes much more time to tire a steelhead out to tail it than to beach it.  if it’s a problem with your hands, i think there are some tailing devices out there… most seem to be fairly long handled, but i’m sure you could cut back the handle.  i know cabelas sells them.  you could also make sure to fish with someone else, who can tail your fish and vice-versa, but that’ll probably decrease fishing days if you must have a partner.  look into some sort of tailing device if you can’t use your hands, because it is better for the fish you plan on releasing. chris

Response:

for all my advice, you should have seen me in practice this morning <G.  had a difficult time tailing a fish and when i finally did, it broke me off right there and shot away.  the way things go sometimes. i agree that it’s not that big of a deal to lose a fish once you’ve touched the leader or made a grab for the tail… but it truly is nice to get ahold of a steelhead every once in awhile just to get a real good look at one and technically land a steelhead <G. chris

Heartily I agree. That’s why I was trying to beach them. I’d like to thank and say good-bye to them in a proper manner. Shinji on the Sky

Response:

______  I always just slip my free under the fish and lift just a little without taking the fish out of the water and I turn it (being on the edge of the river now) into what current there may be.  Usually, I can slip the hook out very easily.  When I want the fish to simply swim off, I lower its weight back off my hand and they will almost surely swim off casually rather then darting off, which confirms the calming affect lifting a fish just a little has on them while still letting them stay in the water. This works especially well when using barbless hooks because they come out much easier without upsetting a fish as will most barbed hooks will.  Barbed hooks go in easy but come out with more difficulty unless you pay attention to the angle of the little slit one should try to back such hooks out.  Barbed hooks are easier to remove with a large pair of forceps.  A secret I use is to use a pair of dikes.  Powerful cutting and pointed pliers that I can snip the hook in half (large hooks with large barbs) just behind the barb if its all the way through.  The barb comes out instantly and the fish is free. Yes, it cost me a fly but when you’ve caught a 12 pound or large Steelhead, the cost of a fly you’ve tied yourself is a small price to pay for such great entertainment.  It always amazes me when watching television fishing shows the great amounts of effort the ‘Pros’ will go to to save a fly at the greater expense and stress and damage to the fish.   Hope these suggestions are somewhat useful gentlemen. Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

Chris,   It is difficult to tail a member of the trout family because their tail is not rigid.  Members of the salmon family are easy to tail.

ARRGH! It’s that Salmonid Taxonomy problem again. Trouts and salmons are all in the family Salmonidae. One of the major genera with in that family is _Salmo_, which includes the Atlantic Salmon and the Brown Trout. Another major family is _Onchorynchus_, which includes the Cutthroat, Rainbow, Golden, Gila, Apache trout and all of the Pacific salmons (pink, king, coho, et cetera). The Lake and Brook Trout are in yet two more genera. (Brookies are technically chars, but I still like them anyway. They’ve got spirit.) At any rate, there is no "trout family" that is distinct from the "salmon family." The criterion that I use is based upon tracing evolutionary relationships. The other criterion may be based upon reproductive migrations or on freshwater vs. saltwater, which leaves us screwed in describing sea-run Cutts or Browns or Steelhead. (Genetically, Steelhead are Rainbows. Bigger and migratory, but rainbows none the less.) Opt out == cop-out. What’s so hard to understand?

Response:

The WDFW gives away a nifty little device at most of the sportsmens shows that is simply a dowel with a plate hook on the end of it. I think they even had directions on how to make them in the regs pamphlet. If you were to make one of these short enough to put in your vest you wouldn’t even have to touch the fish. Simply hook the line with the tool and slide the tool to the fishes mouth. Lift the tool up and the fish unhooks itself. It’s the same principle as the "CatchemRelease" tool you spend $20 on (I have one I use for trout and love it!).  It’s one of the best devices for fishing I have found. It’s simple and better yet it works! Gary

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Landing steelhead with a double-handed rod has always troubled me. I have tried to tail them, but my hand is often too small and/or weak to do so. Besides, it seems to take too much time to sufficiently weaken them before trying to tail them. I don’t want to exaust them. So I tend to force the issue as quickly as possible and try to beach them as soon as possible. Most of the time I have been successful in doing so although I have lost a few feisty ones that seemed to hate to touch the beach. I don’t mind losing some; I let all of them go any way afterwards. However, I wonder if beaching them might hurt them. Does anyone have any factual information regarding beaching and health of relatively large fish? Could anyone give me lessons about how to tail them? As much as I love to hook them, I would like to release them safely. Shinji on the Sky

well, i don’t think it’s good for a big fish to flop around on rocks and sand, you really want to keep the fish in the water and not have the rocks and sand remove the fish’s slime layer or scales.  i haven’t seen any studies on it, but i believe all info on releasing fish recommends not bringing the fish out of water. what i do is make sure i have some loose line off the reel so that once i tail the fish i can illeviate the line pressure so i don’t break the rod.  i haven’t found that it takes much more time to tire a steelhead out to tail it than to beach it.  if it’s a problem with your hands, i think there are some tailing devices out there… most seem to be fairly long handled, but i’m sure you could cut back the handle.  i know cabelas sells them.  you could also make sure to fish with someone else, who can tail your fish and vice-versa, but that’ll probably decrease fishing days if you must have a partner.  look into some sort of tailing device if you can’t use your hands, because it is better for the fish you plan on releasing. chris

Response:

Landing steelhead with a double-handed rod has always troubled me. I have tried to tail them, but my hand is often too small and/or weak to do so. Besides, it seems to take too much time to sufficiently weaken them before trying to tail them. I don’t want to exaust them. So I tend to force the issue as quickly as possible and try to beach them as soon as possible. Most of the time I have been successful in doing so although I have lost a few feisty ones that seemed to hate to touch the beach. I don’t mind losing some; I let all of them go any way afterwards. However, I wonder if beaching them might hurt them. Does anyone have any factual information regarding beaching and health of relatively large fish? Could anyone give me lessons about how to tail them? As much as I love to hook them, I would like to release them safely. Shinji on the Sky

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well, i don’t think it’s good for a big fish to flop around on rocks and sand, you really want to keep the fish in the water and not have the rocks and sand remove the fish’s slime layer or scales.  i haven’t seen any studies on it, but i believe all info on releasing fish recommends not bringing the fish out of water. what i do is make sure i have some loose line off the reel so that once i tail the fish i can illeviate the line pressure so i don’t break the rod.  i haven’t found that it takes much more time to tire a steelhead out to tail it than to beach it.  if it’s a problem with your hands, i think there are some tailing devices out there… most seem to be fairly long handled, but i’m sure you could cut back the handle.  i know cabelas sells them.  you could also make sure to fish with someone else, who can tail your fish and vice-versa, but that’ll probably decrease fishing days if you must have a partner.  look into some sort of tailing device if you can’t use your hands, because it is better for the fish you plan on releasing. chris

Thanks. Reading your posting, I realize what a fool I was. Why do I have to worry about losing fish while trying to tail them? After all, I am tailing them in order to release them! Shinji on the Sky

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well, i don’t think it’s good for a big fish to flop around on rocks and sand, you really want to keep the fish in the water and not have the rocks and sand remove the fish’s slime layer or scales.  i haven’t seen any studies on it, but i believe all info on releasing fish recommends not bringing the fish out of water. what i do is make sure i have some loose line off the reel so that once i tail the fish i can illeviate the line pressure so i don’t break the rod.  i haven’t found that it takes much more time to tire a steelhead out to tail it than to beach it.  if it’s a problem with your hands, i think there are some tailing devices out there… most seem to be fairly long handled, but i’m sure you could cut back the handle.  i know cabelas sells them.  you could also make sure to fish with someone else, who can tail your fish and vice-versa, but that’ll probably decrease fishing days if you must have a partner.  look into some sort of tailing device if you can’t use your hands, because it is better for the fish you plan on releasing. chris Thanks. Reading your posting, I realize what a fool I was. Why do I have to worry about losing fish while trying to tail them? After all, I am tailing them in order to release them! Shinji on the Sky

for all my advice, you should have seen me in practice this morning <G.  had a difficult time tailing a fish and when i finally did, it broke me off right there and shot away.  the way things go sometimes. i agree that it’s not that big of a deal to lose a fish once you’ve touched the leader or made a grab for the tail… but it truly is nice to get ahold of a steelhead every once in awhile just to get a real good look at one and technically land a steelhead <G. chris

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know about fly fishing in the Copper Mountain Colorado area? I am planning a trip in August, ‘99. Thanks. Al Carlton

Response:

Al, the Blue river is only about 12 miles east of Copper while the Eagle river and Gore Creek around Vail are about 20-25 miles west.  All of these have outstanding fishing.  Best bet is the Blue in and around Dillon.  There is good access and fishing can be great.  In the town right behind the factory outlet from the just below the dam to the I 70 bridge holds some really large fish. Use mysis shrimp flies thats about all that works.  Good luck.

Response:

Does anyone know about fly fishing in the Copper Mountain Colorado area? I am planning a trip in August, ‘99. Thanks. Al Carlton

Try www.fishcolorado.com – great site and helpful owner/staff.  I was in the area too early this summer (last week).  Water should be great in August.  Good luck!

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Question:

…[I] would like to be able to lie about my exploits with at least a grain of truth.  This is an admirable start to a fly fishing life.  When you learn to lie without the slightest speck of truth you will have arrived as an "expert."

        right as rain, jeff.  it is an  undertaking which can take decades to perfect.  however, one can seize a considerable advantage by attending a good law school.         wayno         l.l.b., unc ‘69

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I love flyfishing. I’ve been out 6 or 7 times as there are not many trout steams in North Texas.

No kidding! I’ve taken lessons on casting but have a very difficult time reading the stream and presenting the fly. I do plan to retain a guide late this summer

… Good idea. When you are shoppng for a guide, be sure to tell the guide or outfitter that you want to learn how to read a stream and present a fly. Their response should indicate that they are able to focus the trip on your interest in learning those things in particular. You will get a lot more from your guide when your objectives are clear. If they don’t want to tailor the trip to your needs, keep shopping. And don’t worry about the "truth in lying" issue. In the first place, they aren’t going to believe you anyway so it doesn’t matter what you tell them. <g In the second place, a good story is generally more entertaining than the truth. Regards, Ken Clark Ft. Lupton, CO

Response:

I love flyfishing. I’ve been out 6 or 7 times as there are not many trout steams in North Texas. I am not obsessed with catching fish, but I would like to experience the fight a little more often than I have. (I’ve caught 2 small rainbows and released them) I’ve taken lessons on casting but have a very difficult time reading the stream and presenting the fly. any recommendations on videos, books or other resources I might benefit from. I do plan to retain a guide late this summer in Colorado, but I have an opportunity to do some fishing in northern Arkansas in two weeks and would like to be able to lie about my exploits with at least a grain of truth. thanks,

Response:

I do plan to retain a guide late this summer in Colorado, but I have an opportunity to do some fishing in northern Arkansas in two weeks and would like to be able to lie about my exploits with at least a grain of truth.

The guide is a great idea, but you’re gonna have to loosen up on the lying. I realize you’re relatively new to the sport but grains of truth are not expected, assumed or even desired. As far as north Arkansas, fly fisherman are the minority. Most use eggs, corn kernels etc. with spinning rigs. My recommendation would be to skip the White and go straight for the Norfolk. Better, safer wading and more fly fisherman, most of whom are more than willing to share advice (but remember what I said about loosening up). You’ll want sow bugs, 12, 14 & 16 and sculpins 4, 6 & 8. Hardly ever anything on the surface, unfortunately. There’s a great fly shop in Mountain Home, stop in, spend a buck or two and ask questions. Reading water takes time, lots of it. That’s why most of us enjoy this sport so. Always something to learn, to be in tune with, to be surprised by. Good luck ! — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

…[I] would like to be able to lie about my exploits with at least a grain of truth.

  This is an admirable start to a fly fishing life.  When you learn to lie without the slightest speck of truth you will have arrived as an "expert."

Response:

TMac wrote I love flyfishing. I’ve been out 6 or 7 times as there are not many trout steams in North Texas. I am not obsessed with catching fish, but I would like to experience the fight a little more often than I have. (I’ve caught 2 small rainbows and released them) I’ve taken lessons … [snip]

Try searching for a fly fishing club in your area.  Even if trout aren’t too plentiful in your neck of the woods, there still might be a fishing club  (I live in San Diego where stream trout are few, but we have a good size club where I’ve learned a hell of a lot), and such clubs are generally very supportive of neophytes.  Good luck. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

I’ve taken lessons on casting but have a very difficult time reading the stream and presenting the fly. any recommendations on videos, books or other resources I might benefit from.

I read Tom Rosenbauer’s "Reading Trout Streams", and found it very helpful early on. Michael

Response:

I love flyfishing. I’ve been out 6 or 7 times as there are not many trout steams in North Texas. I am not obsessed with catching fish, but I would like to experience the fight a little more often than I have. (I’ve caught 2 small rainbows and released them) I’ve taken lessons on casting but have a very difficult time reading the stream and presenting the fly. any recommendations on videos, books or other resources I might benefit from. I do plan to retain a guide late this summer in Colorado, but I have an opportunity to do some fishing in northern Arkansas in two weeks and would like to be able to lie about my exploits with at least a grain of truth. thanks,

Start with panfish!!!! then bass!!!, Poppers(small) wooly buggers, streamers, cricket(flys), crawdad(flys). You’ll have stories to tell.                                                          John Popp                                                      in Sanford Fl.

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Question:

I hear Monica Lewinsky is an established "fly" fisher . Geez do I need to go fishing . Rain , rain go away , come back when I have to go to work Monday !!!

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I understand she is a catch and release ‘fly fisher’! — Good fishing, and may your fish be as big as your tales!

Response:

I understand she is a catch and release ‘fly fisher’! — Good fishing, and may your fish be as big as your tales!

For the most part Bob , although Kenn Starr found a bunch of little fishes in one of her dresses that she took home . But that was probably an isolated incident .

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Bassndood: You and Bob realize that Ken Starr & Linda Tripp are the same person don’t you? See http://members.aol.com/scarien/rockford.htm Cliff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I understand she is a catch and release ‘fly fisher’! — Good fishing, and may your fish be as big as your tales! For the most part Bob , although Kenn Starr found a bunch of little fishes in one of her dresses that she took home . But that was probably an isolated incident .

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I have made a new page about fishing. At this site can you find tips, trics and much more. And now I wanna start about flyfishing. Has someone tips or trics for my page at http://fishingsite.mypage.org You can e-mail me too.

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Question:

i need help with rigging leadcore line! how do you it? i know downriggers are the better way to go, maybe next season. am taking my boat to the sierras this weekend…reply direct!

Response:

i need help with rigging leadcore line! how do you it? i know downriggers are the better way to go, maybe next season. am taking my boat to the sierras this weekend…reply direct!

Hi Joe, I would recommend a level wind reel like a Penn 9 or Penn 109 for 100 yards of lead core. A Penn 209 will hold 200 yards of lead core for real deep fishing. After you install the lead core on the reel, I would pull out about 1 inch of lead from the inside of the braided line. Put a needle about 1 inch up inside the line an push it out through the side making a hole. After this you can take a 30 foot piece of 15 pound mono and put it up inside the braided skin of the lead core and then out through the side. Then make a barrel, blood or snell knot over the outside of the line. On the end of the 30 feet of 15 pound mono you then attach you trolling blades. Then attach about 2 to 3 feet of 6 to 8 pound mono with you fly, worm or spoon on the end. Get two rigs the same so they will both be rotating together at the same speed. The fish are shallower in the morning and evening and deeper in the daytime. They are also shallower in the fall, winter and spring and deeper in the mid summer. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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i need help with rigging leadcore line! how do you it? i know downriggers are the better way to go, maybe next season. am taking my boat to the sierras this weekend…reply direct!

Exactly what is your question? How to fish with it? load it on the reel?

Response:

i need help with rigging leadcore line! how do you it? i know downriggers are the better way to go, maybe next season. am taking my boat to the sierras this weekend…reply direct!

Typically you rig lead core with a 50 foot leader of mono, Spiderwire, or Fireline.  On a trolling reel or large baitcaster, you spool up enough leadcore for your needs then you can tie the leadcore to your 50 foot leader.   Rather than just tying the two together, many people like to tie the two together wil a small barrell swivel.  Just make sure the barrell swivel is strong enough. If your looking to run your lines deeper and don’t want to use downriggers yet, there are other options besides using leadcore. Leadcore certainly works and has it’s place.  However  another option is to use Dipsey Divers or similar devices.  A second option is to use the Snap Weights from Off Shore Tackle that clip onto your line.  It all depends on the fishing your doing, however, if it was myself, I’d prefer using Dipseys or Snap Weights over lead core in most cases. If you want any more info feel free to send me some e-mail. Good Fishin’ Don Mutsch

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Question:

C’mon you people, admit it, let share some carp on the fly stories.  These stalwart fighters have been much maligned over the decades regarding their worth as a worthy adversary. I know some of you have forsaken the Trout for the coarseness of what’s still considered in Europe as a noble Fish. The Carp.  Philosophical retorts as well as pragmatic advice on how to catch the suckers is welcome.   (Have tried steelhead type egg flies with little success for starters).

Response:

C’mon you people, admit it, let share some carp on the fly stories.

These stalwart fighters have been much maligned over the decades regarding their worth as a worthy adversary. I know some of you have forsaken the Trout for the coarseness of what’s still considered in Europe as a noble Fish. The Carp.  Philosophical retorts as well as pragmatic advice on how to catch the suckers is welcome.   (Have tried steelhead type egg flies with little success for starters). Danezen,  A friend and I caught a number of carp of 3 to 5 pounds on #14 GRHE in clear quiet water.  Fished the fly with a slow finger winding retrieve.  They make a lot of noise splashing as the hook is set and the first 3 minutes are a good fight…. then it is a down and dogged pull without much character to it until you bring them to net… Seem to lack the stamina of a salmonid. Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*

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I know some of you have forsaken the Trout for the coarseness of what’s still considered in Europe as a noble Fish. The Carp.  Philosophical retorts as well as pragmatic advice on how to catch the suckers is welcome.  

In the absence of other fish, Carp is King. In the presence of other fish, carp is an abomination.

Response:

I have had some success using maribu jigs with hackle bodys, fished off docks and presented like you would to a trout. them buggers can be alfull picky. lots of fun on 2 pound line. The guy crappie fishing next to me about had a heart attack when I landed a 6 pounder on 2 pound line. bright colors seem to help. crashawk

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A number of years ago, I was fishing 11 Mile Reservoir for Pike. I was casting a large black Bunny Fly that had been very successful for me netting me a number of Pike up to twenty pounds. I was fishing a wind swept shoreline from a belly boat & was casting into the roiled water near the bank, retrieving the fly back into the clear. The Pike I had been catching were sitting right at the edge of this line. I made a cast very near the shore & thought that I had snagged. Then all hell broke loose. Following a huge swurl, the fish took off like a freight train running toward the middle of the lake. With an eight weight & a heavy leader, I was unable to slow the fish. When I reached my backing, I turned around, held my rod above my head, & kicked as hard as I could to keep the fish from taking all the line. I followed the fish as well as I could, without being able to gain any line. Finally just when the spool was nearly empty, it stopped. I regained some line by getting right over the fish. Then the work began. For what seemed to be a half hour, I followed the fish, got towed by him, gained line, lost line. I felt I had hooked a CO record pike.I finally gained enough line that I saw the fish. I was *VERY* dissappointed when I saw it was a carp. When I finally landed it, I guestimated it at over twenty pounds, similar in weight to some of the bigger pike I had caught. Over the next few days, my mind kept going back to the battle with this fish. I was probably the most exciting, hard fought battle I’d had with a fish. This turned around my thinking about carp. I now fish for them with dries when they’re surface feeding, & will fish for them with nymphs etc. I find that small flies, as a whole, fish better.   Willi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – C’mon you people, admit it, let share some carp on the fly stories.  These stalwart fighters have been much maligned over the decades regarding their worth as a worthy adversary. I know some of you have forsaken the Trout for the coarseness of what’s still considered in Europe as a noble Fish. The Carp.  Philosophical retorts as well as pragmatic advice on how to catch the suckers is welcome.   (Have tried steelhead type egg flies with little success for starters). There is a story in the current California Fly Fisher about sneak fishing for large carp in ponds in Golden Gate Park, San Francisco. Written by Seth Norman with photos by Valentine Atkinson. He scored on egg flies. The fish were spooky. The proper camoflage would be to dress as a bum and cast a short rod from a park bench.

Laugh.  I really miss my subscription to that magazine but I no longer live in California.  If you (the generic you) live in California, and you flyfish,  I highly recommend a subscription to the magazine. -Mark Vinsel BTW, in case this rare willingness to write on your favorite quarry inspires you to want to subscribe, Cal FFer can be reached at: P.O. Box 40429 San Francisco, CA,  94140 (415) 284-0313

At one time they had an email address as well but were having trouble with their service provider and I haven’t seen anything from them in a long time.  I had a good feeling about them when I first subscribed to the magazine and they apologized for not getting back so soon because the staff was out fishing. John Fereira

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Question:

I hate to burst anyones bubble, but yuppification is passe, out, history. The term is now about as happening as preppies. The real trend in flyfishing, as in life and especially music, is alternative. While we obsess about the coming invasion of Eddie Bauer Explorers to our secret spots our sport is slowly being infiltrated and destroyed by the angst generation.         It happened quietly, on streams most flyfishers would never frequent, but that’s just the thing with alternative. Bored with their pierced noses and pawn shop Sears guitars these lost souls now prowl the carp fisheries of the world dressed in oversized waders they wear backwards, torn flannel shirts and stocking caps. Kicking aside old shopping carts they cast their alternative flies to the bottom feeders of the piscatorial world because they see it as a projection of their own bleak so called life. One of the pioneers in alternative flyfishing is known as "Mr. Black". His anti-innovation sets the pace for the movement. Mr. Black has modified many of Joe Brooks’ Blonde patterns for use by his followers, coming up with such patterns as Suicide Blonde, Throat Slashed Blonde, No Reason To Even Bother Blonde and Black Blonde (a Dennis Rodman tribute fly). "Yeah, I cast them out on this old Philipson parabolic glass rod I found at the dump, sometimes I catch a fish. I guess the ultimate would be to snag a carp, pierce it’s anal fin, then slash my wrists" he told me when I met him in the outflow of a local tannery.         Much of what the alternative flyfishers indulge in; casting without rhythm, using 10 weight lines on 4 weight rods, using butt sections lighter than the tippet, doesn’t really bother anyone, but the practice of piercing may become an issue. The Charles River in Boston is rumored to have a huge population of carp boasting pentangle studs in ther anal fins. There is much concern that these impromtu piercings will result in infections that will endanger other populations. Mr. Black doesn’t see this as a big problem, however, "Well like everything is pretty much doomed anyways so at least the carp get to feel pretty while descending into the inevitable depths of hell." Thus far the alternative flyfishers have ignored such species as trout, salmon, etc., but it’s only a matter of time before we start pulling in fish wearing earrings. When this happens we’ll see the yuppies as ‘the good old days’. Be afraid, be very afraid.                                                                 jc

Response:

Frikken Preppies, ruinin’ flyfishin… TimW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hate to burst anyones bubble, but yuppification is passe, out, history. The term is now about as happening as preppies. The real trend in flyfishing, as in life and especially music, is alternative. While we obsess about the coming invasion of Eddie Bauer Explorers to our secret spots our sport is slowly being infiltrated and destroyed by the angst generation.         It happened quietly, on streams most flyfishers would never frequent, but that’s just the thing with alternative. Bored with their pierced noses and pawn shop Sears guitars these lost souls now prowl the carp fisheries of the world dressed in oversized waders they wear backwards, torn flannel shirts and stocking caps. Kicking aside old shopping carts they cast their alternative flies to the bottom feeders of the piscatorial world because they see it as a projection of their own bleak so called life. One of the pioneers in alternative flyfishing is known as "Mr. Black". His anti-innovation sets the pace for the movement. Mr. Black has modified many of Joe Brooks’ Blonde patterns for use by his followers, coming up with such patterns as Suicide Blonde, Throat Slashed Blonde, No Reason To Even Bother Blonde and Black Blonde (a Dennis Rodman tribute fly). "Yeah, I cast them out on this old Philipson parabolic glass rod I found at the dump, sometimes I catch a fish. I guess the ultimate would be to snag a carp, pierce it’s anal fin, then slash my wrists" he told me when I met him in the outflow of a local tannery.         Much of what the alternative flyfishers indulge in; casting without rhythm, using 10 weight lines on 4 weight rods, using butt sections lighter than the tippet, doesn’t really bother anyone, but the practice of piercing may become an issue. The Charles River in Boston is rumored to have a huge population of carp boasting pentangle studs in ther anal fins. There is much concern that these impromtu piercings will result in infections that will endanger other populations. Mr. Black doesn’t see this as a big problem, however, "Well like everything is pretty much doomed anyways so at least the carp get to feel pretty while descending into the inevitable depths of hell." Thus far the alternative flyfishers have ignored such species as trout, salmon, etc., but it’s only a matter of time before we start pulling in fish wearing earrings. When this happens we’ll see the yuppies as ‘the good old days’. Be afraid, be very afraid.                                                                 jc

– TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

I hate to burst anyones bubble, but yuppification is passe, out, history. The term is now about as happening as preppies. The real trend in flyfishing, as in life and especially music, is alternative. While we obsess about the coming invasion of Eddie Bauer Explorers to our secret spots our sport is slowly being infiltrated and destroyed by the angst generation….

Busted! Ya nailed us, dude! "Get the hell out of my drift, you BOOMER sonofabitch, or I’ll send Trent Reznor to your house to collect your pets!" Piercing carp….I’ll be laughing about that for days. Maybe now that style is a factor, I won’t bother getting the guides replaced on my old Simpsons-Sears fibreglass POLE after all… As a proud member of Generation X (Douglas Coupland’s definition — he’s 36 now), I salute you Mr. Cloyd for accurately identifying the next big fishing demographic! — K.G. (Kat) Cruickshank, Slacker. Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

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more snip Not to worry about the GenXers.  They aren’t going to have time to fish or the money to do it.  They are all going to be too busy scrambling to keep their jobs at McDonalds and Burger Chef.  Yuppie as a "hip" term in popular culture may be passe’, but their sure as hell are a lot of ‘em showing up at my favorite fishing holes these days.  I prefer the GenXers, earrings or no.   — Indy http://realindy.com

I almost never see "yuppies" fishing, and wonder how one identifies them in the field. A "Field Guide to Yuppies" thereya go. I see people out there who are my age (41) and people older and younger, but have never seen any blatantly obnoxious behavior from any of them, so tell me Indy how I can tell. Anyways, IMO earrings are cool but my faith in the GenXers was shaken when I heard Slash playing on "adult contemporary radio (muzak)". What the hell is this world coming to….

Response:

I hate to burst anyones bubble, but yuppification is passe, out, history. The term is now about as happening as preppies. The real trend in flyfishing, as in life and especially music, is alternative. While we obsess about the coming invasion of Eddie Bauer Explorers to our secret spots our sport is slowly being infiltrated and destroyed by the angst generation.

snip,snip,snip  Thus far the alternative flyfishers have ignored such species as trout, salmon, etc., but it’s only a matter of time before we start pulling in fish wearing earrings. When this happens we’ll see the yuppies as ‘the good old days’. Be afraid, be very afraid.                                                                 jc

Not to worry about the GenXers.  They aren’t going to have time to fish or the money to do it.  They are all going to be too busy scrambling to keep their jobs at McDonalds and Burger Chef.  Yuppie as a "hip" term in popular culture may be passe’, but their sure as hell are a lot of ‘em showing up at my favorite fishing holes these days.  I prefer the GenXers, earrings or no.   — Indy http://realindy.com

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Question:

<SNIP are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit. I would be real surprised if Montana planted any fish.  Because of the good population of brown trout, which are resistant to WD, they still have fish in the infected rivers.  Besides,wasn’t Montana the first state to figure out that people will travel long distances to catch "wild" fish?  

   I don’t mean to change the subject, but the original question has recently become even more intriguing than when I originally posed it.  The Yellowstone is the last wild river in the lower 48, but that doesn’t seem to be so important now that a few springcreeks have succumbed to what wild rivers naturally do on occasion (flood and change that is).  Stocking wild rivers when the rainbows disappear is similar to damming wild rivers when the largely man-made springcreeks disappear.  They are both justified with tourist dollars.  Of course it remains to be seen what they will actually do on the Yellowstone.  I am a cynic but I hope I am wrong. -al

Response:

<SNIP are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.

I would be real surprised if Montana planted any fish.  Because of the good population of brown trout, which are resistant to WD, they still have fish in the infected rivers.  Besides,wasn’t Montana the first state to figure out that people will travel long distances to catch "wild" fish?   Do you think people would travel long distances to catch hatchery planters??  I can see the ads now: "Come to Big Sky Country to catch our imitation rainbows reared in concrete runways by the thousands and behaviourly modified with regular feedings of Purina Trout Chow (floating variety – a reddish brown color).  The "hot" fly this week (and every week) – either a brown Goddard Caddis with the hackle and antenna removed or a size10 brown beetle.  If the fish aren’t rising just throw out a handful of pea gravel (sounds like PTC hitting the water).  Guaranteed to make them rise (and since your fly is the only thing floating they’ll hit it thinking it’s PTC).  Come on down!"  I guarantee you I wouldn’t and I don’t think very many people would – and they know that.                                         Just my .02                                                 Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never? Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?  Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.   Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.   I hope this initiates some useful discussion. -al

I am not an expert, but I have read that whirling disease has been around for over 200 years since it was first discovered in Europe.  So our environment has been successfully dealing with it for quiet a while. It can be spread by man and animals, so if fishing were banned, it would still migrate to new streams. I was fortunate enough to talk to a very experinced guide in Montana a few weeks ago.  His opinion on the disease is that its effects are minimal, and that the low count of frey is due to the extended fishing season ( to bring in the tourist bucks) and the trampling of the spawning beds by well intentioned fishermen. H.Payne

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The spring creeks aren’t largely man made…they had allways existed and had fallen into disrepair from years of neglect and cattle grazing…they have been rehabilitated by man…veggitation restored, silt removed, etc…I will be very surprised if Montana increases it’s stocking program…there is no need…it’s so ironic that EVERYONE is SO concerned with whirling disease when the biggest threat to our Montana fisheries remains water quality….stop the Seven-Up Pete mine on the Blackfoot…restore the pre 1994 water quality standards!!!

Response:

These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion…

I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch

Response:

Al,    The discussions I’ve monitored predict that a certain percentage of the population will be resistant to WD.  These fish will reproduce, passing on their resistance.  After a few generations, equilibrium will be restored.  If we leave nature alone, she’ll do what she has done for million of years– repair and improve herself. But then, my boss calls me a stary-eyed optomist! Tight lines, Charley

Jonathan Cook’s response has indicated -and there is evidence from several Eastern and Western states to substantiate this- that the presence of the parasite does not immediately lead to the symptoms of infections, eg skeletal deformations, ‘whirling’, black tail.  Whether or not this means that a resident population has developed an immune response to the parasite is still debatable.  Published reports indicate that there is some antibody response to the presence of the parasite, however this may or may not lead to removal of the parasite by known immune response pathways. The primary reason whirling disease is so devastating is the attack on skelatal material that has not ossified.  So survival/morbidity depends on the presence of the parasite, its apparent mandatory passage through the intermediate host, the Tubifex worm, the release of the infectious stage of the parasite, and attachment to the host fish–all at a time when the fish has not undergone ossification of the site of attack (the spine and some head skeleton regions).  So survival is dependent on the life histories of the parasite, its intermediate host and the main host. All of the fish so far discussed are at risk, although there is a gradation that increases from browns to cutts to rainbows.  Someone rightly pointed out that the primary target for the present are rainbows which are the progeny of planted fish – I believe but am not sure that Montana stopped planting fish in rivers in the late 70’s, but continue to do so in lakes in the state.  I am more concerned on the fate of native, wild fish (eg the cutts) than those that have been moved from other locations (the rainbow and brown). Don

Response:

I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? My guess is that yes, this is a big factor in susceptibility. A high gradient stream doesn’t play good host to the tubifex worm, and is less fertile in general. Thus, the WD spore concentration will be less during the ossification period of the young trout’s skeleton. More trout live, and the overall affect is less. I’d say a good example of this is the Big Thompson. Very little effect.

Or the Roaring Fork ? TimW

Response:

These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion… I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch

One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away. Darryl Hayashida

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion… I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away.

Does this latter posit a positive argument for catch and kill ? TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion… I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away. Does this latter posit a positive argument for catch and kill ? TimW

Not really.  ’Cuz the fish killed by WD are fry that you wouldn’t catch anyway.  ’Course, I suppose larger fish could be host to it without being killed by it.  But, taking all the fish out of the system to save the system, somehow, seems short-sighted to me. Tight lines and straight fish, Charley

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. Most hard-hit waters are tailwaters — no runoff, constant temps, and lots of moss and mud for tubifex worms (the other host).

Hi Jon, and now Gas Bubble disease can be added to the list of problems in tailwaters. A recent study on the Colorado River states:         …Trout sampled exhibited higher symptoms of both whirling disease         and gas bubble trauma in stream sections with high saturation levels         than those with lower saturation levels. These results indicate a         combined effect of whirling disease and gas bubble trauma is affecting         young -of-the-year rainbow and brown trout in the study area. regards, Mike

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Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida

how do you distinguish a hatchery fish from a wild one ? just curious (i’m a strict C&R guy) — phone +303-492-3504       |  Dept. of Chemistry & Biochemistry fax +303-492-5894         |  University of Colorado at Boulder

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never? Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?  Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.    Are steelhead susceptible?    Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.    I hope this initiates some useful discussion. -al

Al,         The discussions I’ve monitored predict that a certain percentage of the population will be resistant to WD.  These fish will reproduce, passing on their resistance.  After a few generations, equilibrium will be restored.  If we leave nature alone, she’ll do what she has done for million of years– repair and improve herself. But then, my boss calls me a stary-eyed optomist! Tight lines, Charley

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida how do you distinguish a hatchery fish from a wild one ? just curious (i’m a strict C&R guy) In the area I fish in, a stocker is a 10 to 12 inch rainbow with tattered fins and a dark almost black back.They all look the same, as if they were cranked out by an assembly line. The fins are tattered because they grow up packed into a concrete pen where their fins rub against the walls and each other. The hatchery fish also tend to nip each others fins. Probably out of irritation or maybe lack of anything else to do. Their backs are black because the have no way to get out of the sun and fish skin reacts to strong sunlight just like human skin does – increased melanin, or in other words, a suntan. Darryl Hayashida

Here in Oregon, the hatchery workers clip the adipose fin (the one located on the back behind the main (dorsal?) fin). Andy Clark Albany, OR

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Text deleted… In the end it will be the hatchery raised WD exposed fish that has the best chance of survival and passing on resistance to its offspring. regards, Mike

We are talking about two different animals here. In my disscusions with fishery biologists in the area I fish in, I found out that the hatchery fish have a very low survival rate. On the order of 2 to 3 percent. One of the reasons is that the "catchable" size stocked is 10 to 12 inches. Any fish raised for the better portion of a year on Purina Trout Chow isn’t going to recognize a caddis or mayfly or a nymph as food. All I’m saying is in my area stockers are going to die anyway, so you might as well keep them. This is probably different in your area. Also, the area I fish in has had WD for decades. It still has wild trout. They seem to be resistant, and C&R seems to be a positive factor, preserving resistant fish to breed, not a cause of spreading WD. Go ahead and post your rebuttal, and I will read it, but this debate will probably go on for years and we, at least I, can’t do a darned thing about WD. So, if you don’t mind, I respectfully bow out of this discussion. I only entered into it again to answer the question on why it appears steep stream gradients don’t have a WD problem. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida how do you distinguish a hatchery fish from a wild one ? just curious (i’m a strict C&R guy)

In the area I fish in, a stocker is a 10 to 12 inch rainbow with tattered fins and a dark almost black back.They all look the same, as if they were cranked out by an assembly line. The fins are tattered because they grow up packed into a concrete pen where their fins rub against the walls and each other. The hatchery fish also tend to nip each others fins. Probably out of irritation or maybe lack of anything else to do. Their backs are black because the have no way to get out of the sun and fish skin reacts to strong sunlight just like human skin does – increased melanin, or in other words, a suntan. Darryl Hayashida

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As far as a hatrchery fish goes, if the fish was raised in a WD negative hatchery  (or born in the wild) and placed in a WD positive stream it would never exhibit  signs of WD but could carry millions of spores until its death. But a fish raised in a "lightly infected" WD positve hatchery may only be exposed to a few spores,  at which time the fish becomes immune to WD, and the spore load never increases. Which fish should is the healthiest? In the end it will be the hatchery raised WD exposed fish that has the best chance of survival and passing on resistance to its offspring. regards, Mike

Now, Mike.  Building strawmen arguments and then knocking them down is a crude and not very supportable method of proving your point.  Yes, if I accept that only the two scenarios you’ve outlined exist, your choice is superior.  However, it is possible that a wild trout, or one introduced from a hatchery, may inhabit a "lightly infected" WD positive stream and provide an immunity to WD that is commensurate with your hypothetical Hatchery Fish.  After all, this is Mother Nature we’re discussing here.  She’s anything but linear! I believe that hatcheries have their place, as do wild runs. I believe that catch and release is a tools, and should be used with an awareness of the appropriate application of that tool and its potential short-comings. I believe Flyfishing, much like Monday Night Football, has become much too popular, and in its popularity has suffered from many individuals trying to define it to fit into their paradigm.  It’s still just fishing. Tight Lines, Charley

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No, because if you have just caught a fish that appears healthy, then it either has WD or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t then put it back. If it does, then it might be one of the few fish that are resistant to WD, and if it lives to reproduce, the resistance will be passed on to its offspring. Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it.

There is absolutely no way to tell if a fish has WD or not, except for the very young fish who were exposed before ther cartilage had formed. These young fish will have deformed spines, heads, and blackened tails. However they do not live very long as they are easy prey, poor competitors, or die as a result of WD.  On the other hand an older fish that is exposed my carry millions of spores and never show any signs. When they die they release these spores that invade the Tubifex worm (intermediate host) that later releases the spores that harm the very young fish. As far as a hatrchery fish goes, if the fish was raised in a WD negative hatchery  (or born in the wild) and placed in a WD positive stream it would never exhibit  signs of WD but could carry millions of spores until its death. But a fish raised in a "lightly infected" WD positve hatchery may only be exposed to a few spores,  at which time the fish becomes immune to WD, and the spore load never increases. Which fish should is the healthiest? In the end it will be the hatchery raised WD exposed fish that has the best chance of survival and passing on resistance to its offspring. regards, Mike

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<snip A recent study on the Colorado River states:..Trout sampled exhibited higher symptoms of both whirling disease      and gas bubble traum=

a in stream sections with high saturation levels than those with lower saturation levels. <snip What exactly is gas bubble trauma? Is this an effect in aerated hydraulics on ??? gills, body surface, or ???? Please elucidate. Jon

Response:

One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away. Does this latter posit a positive argument for catch and kill ? TimW

No, because if you have just caught a fish that appears healthy, then it either has WD or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t then put it back. If it does, then it might be one of the few fish that are resistant to WD, and if it lives to reproduce, the resistance will be passed on to its offspring. Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida

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     Just my $0.02, and I expect I’ll get a flame or two for this.      Rainbows are native to Pacific coast streams.  Sure they grow to a large size, but anytime you transplant fish from their place of origin to a new area, you’re taking a big risk.  Not only are the organisms not adapted to all the vagaraties of the new habiat, even if the populations do thrive, but the other organisms in the new habitat are also not adapted to the imported species.      Cutthroats are native to the Rocky Mountain streams.  They evolved there, in consort with all of the other organisms in the ecosystem.  It would make more sense to revitalize the cutthroat populations, especially with all of their interesting subspecies, than to keep relying on alien species.  Likewise I would rather see more brook trout in eastern streams. Jesse M. Purvis

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   I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never? Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?  Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.    Are steelhead susceptible?    Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.    I hope this initiates some useful discussion. -al

Response:

These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion. However, I did attend the WD conference in Denver back in Feb, and have read alot of the papers that were discussed there, so I think I’m reasonably well-informed.   I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never?

No one knows – can be any of the above. Depends on what you mean by recover, and on what it is recovering from. However, keep reading, the news isn’t that bad. Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?

Apparently, yes. Utah killed off a river counting on this. CA has seen watersheds go from testing positive for WD to negative over several years, too. Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It

Yes, a significant portion can survive. It depends on how saturated the water is with WD; and that depends on river conditions. My bet is that many rivers in the west will not support heavy concentrations of WD (ie, enough to drastically affect the rainbow population). Most hard-hit waters are tailwaters — no runoff, constant temps, and lots of moss and mud for tubifex worms (the other host). seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.

I am pretty sure that fish spawn all of their adult life. In fact, the older and bigger they are, the more eggs they produce. They just keep getting better!   Are steelhead susceptible?

Probably.   Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  

Yeah, but don’t worry about it. I don’t think it’ll spread as fast as in the past, and, as above, there are many rivers that probably won’t see population crashes, due to the nature of the river itself. Besides, the rainbow isn’t native in much of the west anyways. Its just the CA$H fish — maybe ol’ T-Bone will get his wish of less-crowded waters, after all. Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.

I don’t think they’ll need to stock. Remember, the Madison was already over 50% browns, so its not like there’s no fish left. Probably Henry’s Fork too. But who knows, I could be wrong. There are many states and many rivers already infected. Overall, it has been very few rivers that have seen population crashes. And these rivers ARE NOT NATURAL. The upper Colorado, the Madison, others in Colorado, do not have natural flows. I don’t think WD will devastate the west. Jon.

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Question:

The Santa Cruz Fly Fishermen are often found on the Monterey Bay in CA. Most of them do quite well , usually  much  better than the bait fishermen. We enjoy many species of rockfish  as well as shark on a fly, also stripped bass.

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The Santa Cruz Fly Fishermen are often found on the Monterey Bay in CA. Most of them do quite well , usually  much  better than the bait fishermen. We enjoy many species of rockfish  as well as shark on a fly, also stripped bass.

I have fished the Santa Cruz marine area for many years using fly. I find that the rockcod fishing is very productive at this time of year. I use a 7-8 wt. rod with 18 feet of lead core. I use 15 lb. leader with a two fly setup. For shark (mostly Blue shark) I use a cheap 10-11 wt. rod with a very good reel and lots of backing. I use a floating line with 20 lb. tipit with a foot long piece of single strand wire (58 lb. strength) as a shock leader. Also, for both rockcod and shark I make sure that the barb is flattened on my flies. This is for everyone’s good (including the fish). Last year was a very successful year for rockcod and shark. This year, it has been only fair, but some outstanding fish days did occur. John

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