Question:

  Hi everyone, just thought I’d introduce myself.  I’ve been lurking for a while and this group seems to be a pretty good bunch of guys (and gals).  I’ve learned quite a bit.  I’m a newbie fly fisherman (only been out once in horrible windy conditions).  I’ll be fishing the Upper Deerfield this weekend.  Does anyone familiar with the river have any suggestions regarding fly selection this time of year, useful tips, etc. that might enable a poor newbie to catch a few trout?  I’m aware of the dam, water levels, etc.  I was thinking of getting a guide for a day, but it’s kind of expensive.  TYIA for the help, and I hope to contribute to the group in the future.  Tom Zebrowski

Greetings, Tom. I’ve not fished the area, but there’s a pretty decent map and hatch information at this website: http://tinyurl.com/20mq According to this information, it looks like you should be fishing midge imitations #20 or smaller. I’ve had a bit of success lately in Southern Mass. with small, white spinner patterns and Griffiths Gnat for dry flies, and #16 and smaller nymphs. — TL, Tim

Response:

  Hi George, thanks for the welcome.  I’ll be fishing the two catch and release areas below the Fife Brook Dam.  I should have been more specific.  Are you familiar with that area?  Regards, Tom

Response:

Welcome to the group, Tom. If , by Upper Deerfield, you mean the Vermont section below Searsburg Dam, I have never fished it, so I can’t be of much help. I only know a few people who have fished that area, and they regarded it as overrated. Good luck, anyway, and please submit a TR. George Adams "All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of youth that doth not grow stale with age."                                                           —- J.W Muller

Response:

  Hi everyone, just thought I’d introduce myself.  I’ve been lurking for a while and this group seems to be a pretty good bunch of guys (and gals).  I’ve learned quite a bit.  I’m a newbie fly fisherman (only been out once in horrible windy conditions).  I’ll be fishing the Upper Deerfield this weekend.  Does anyone familiar with the river have any suggestions regarding fly selection this time of year, useful tips, etc. that might enable a poor newbie to catch a few trout?  I’m aware of the dam, water levels, etc.  I was thinking of getting a guide for a day, but it’s kind of expensive.  TYIA for the help, and I hope to contribute to the group in the future.  Tom Zebrowski

Response:

Question:

Sounds damn good to me Joe! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On Sat Feb  16  Joe Humphreys  will will demonstrate his casting  for catching fish then he and around 30 other -tiers will show you beginners how to tie something the fish might like. I plann to attend and spend saturday nigtht in Morganton and fish somewhere Sunday if temp is 42 or above. Walt, Opie any of you locals  interested. Jeff I will share a motel with you if you can stay  in bed till at least 5 in morning. But I will not get up and start driving at 2:30 AM to beat the traffic!       Joe-/*

Response:

joe – i wouldn’t travel to charlotte even if nicole kidman offered to suck my wanker there…so, i trust you’ll understand if i decline your generous offer.  now, if you can get joe or nicole to demonstrate their ability in hyde county, i’d happily reconsider… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On Sat Feb  16  Joe Humphreys  will will demonstrate his casting  for catching fish then he and around 30 other -tiers will show you beginners how to tie something the fish might like. I plann to attend and spend saturday nigtht in Morganton and fish somewhere Sunday if temp is 42 or above. Walt, Opie any of you locals  interested. Jeff I will share a motel with you if you can stay  in bed till at least 5 in morning. But I will not get up and start driving at 2:30 AM to beat the traffic!       Joe-/*

Response:

On Sat Feb  16  Joe Humphreys  will will demonstrate his casting  for catching fish then he and around 30 other -tiers will show you beginners how to tie something the fish might like. I plann to attend and spend saturday nigtht in Morganton and fish somewhere Sunday if temp is 42 or above. Walt, Opie any of you locals  interested. Jeff I will share a motel with you if you can stay  in bed till at least 5 in morning. But I will not get up and start driving at 2:30 AM to beat the traffic!       Joe-/*

Joe, no can do….. I have show/shop duties…. walt

Response:

On Sat Feb  16  Joe Humphreys  will will demonstrate his casting  for catching fish then he and around 30 other -tiers will show you beginners how to tie something the fish might like. I plann to attend and spend saturday nigtht in Morganton and fish somewhere Sunday if temp is 42 or above. Walt, Opie any of you locals  interested. Jeff I will share a motel with you if you can stay  in bed till at least 5 in morning. But I will not get up and start driving at 2:30 AM to beat the traffic!       Joe-/*

Response:

Question:

B-run slow and far in-between but large when you hook up.  A few 30 + inchers have been caught and released.  Ron Fudge released a 33 inch Buck but had to work two/three days for it.  Very slow fishing.  Run up the Snake is in cloudy water and the fish just aren’t interested in doing anything in this dry weather.  We need some rain to scent the water.  The mud is from the clear cutting up river as it continues to do excessive erosion damage in the cliffs and mountains. Today I pulled the big jet boat out and took it to town for a set of all new brakes, two new matching tires so all four are alike, and for all new wheel bearings.  We spent an hour in the power wash cleaning and waxing "The Professional" Jet Guide Boat.  I was surprised how dirty the boat was just sitting in storage and out of the sun all summer.  Of course we’ve been away a lot for the last three months. We will be taking pictures to post on the web site as soon as we get her into the water.  Some boaters are picking up six to eight fish a day using shrimp bait but they aren’t fly fishermen either.  These individuals are fishing at night and it seems the new battery lighted lures are catching more fishermen then fish anyhow.  Maybe next year the new lures will be playing Mozart underwater? Mr.G.

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

        (blather snipped out of concern for the honor of the newsgroup)         it is perversely fascinating that anyone, even you, george, would think that any other human being on the planet could possibly give a damn about the matters proffered in the preceding post. wayno  (ok, so me and willi loehman read it)

Response:

   (blather snipped out of concern for the honor of the newsgroup)    it is perversely fascinating that anyone, even you, george, would think that any other human being on the planet could possibly give a damn about the matters proffered in the preceding post. wayno  (ok, so me and willi loehman read it)

Heck, I read ‘em.  You never know what material might lurk.  Sorta like the kid and the barn full of horseshit, just certain there’s a pony under it all.  Actually, considering that Admiral Ginkstinks (hey, I think Gink Stinks – so sue me) is the source, a "full of horseshit" analogy is particularly apropos. For example, this one makes me wonder what kind of strange boat uses 4 matching (or even mis-matched) tires, new wheel bearings, or new (or old) brakes.  The only thing I can think of is that now that he’s without air support and de-Sabered – hmm, does that mean he’s "out of plane?" – he’s plotting to go capture a warm water port in Afghanistan to keep it out of the hands of them there godless commies….or them there ragheads….or somebody else that done him wrong….uh-oh…’tripper, better scratch parking your aircraft carrier in the Port of Kabul without battling a greasy little muppet and his lawyer, …and watch out for those flaming bamboo torpedoes….wait – damn the torpedoes, full stream ahead… TC, R

Response:

Question:

Tracey <rbranc…@mediaone.net> wrote in message

news:3A96A46C.45DF0E68@mediaone.net… > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it > >would cause marital problems. > If *both* are involved (and are devoted to it), it doesn’t seem > like it’s a cause of problems. > — > Tracey

My mistake…I suppose there could be occasions where this would not cause problems.  (shudders) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Indigo: What sailors do when they see a bar >                      —Funky Winkerbean—

Response:

Jadelee111512 <jadelee111…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010223130358.05491.00000364@ng-co1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >From: "B and B" > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > >> Just a fishing question here. > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > >> Kevin > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage. Amway > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > a relationship. > jadelee

Being a phone sex operator can grate on a marriage too.  And so can just about any occupation where a lot of travel is involved.

Response:

I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? momalot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jadelee111512 wrote: > >From: "B and B" > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > >> Just a fishing question here. > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > >> Kevin > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage.  Amway > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > a relationship. > jadelee

Response:

Tracey wrote: > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it > >would cause marital problems. > If *both* are involved (and are devoted to it), it doesn’t seem > like it’s a cause of problems.

That would be tres cool, if you think about it.  They could sell each other stuff ad nauseam and be filthy rich in no time, right? Ponzi 1, do you take Ponzi 2 to be your lawful wedded… Drew

Response:

> I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? > momalot

www.amway.com shepette  (who used to like momalot’s posts, too bad we’ve now lost her to the underworld of amway…)

Response:

Ahhh, I see what it is now. Thanks for the link, btw. In my area we have "Stanley" , I think it’s a lot like Amway. Not my cup a tea. momalot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Shepette wrote: > > I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? > > momalot > www.amway.com > shepette  (who used to like momalot’s posts, too bad we’ve now lost her to > the underworld of amway…)

Response:

ROFLOL ISIS "momalot" <dadalotmoma…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:3A96B436.6E33A6DB@hotmail.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? > momalot > Jadelee111512 wrote: > > >From: "B and B" > > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > > >becoming one. > > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > > >marital problems. > > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > > >> Just a fishing question here. > > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > > >> Kevin > > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage. Amway > > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > > a relationship. > > jadelee

Response:

Run fast and far. — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a fishing question here. > Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > Kevin

Response:

I agree with that, but Amway is in a class by itself. Amway’s just……… creepy — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "Jadelee111512" <jadelee111…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010223130358.05491.00000364@ng-co1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >From: "B and B" > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > >> Just a fishing question here. > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > >> Kevin > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage. Amway > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > a relationship. > jadelee

Response:

On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:11:14 -0500, "B and B" <baboonnliz…@prodigy.net> wrote: >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not >becoming one. >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause >marital problems.

Nitpick Dept:  Most Borg vessels are cubes, not spheres.

Response:

>From: "B and B" >Being a phone sex operator can grate on a marriage too.  And so can just >about any occupation where a lot of travel is involved.

Those are examples of a few.  Any high stress job has a potential to effect a marriage. Too many to name.  We are not well prepared to handle the stressors of jobs and marriage. jadelee

Response:

"B and B" wrote: >Being a phone sex operator can grate on a marriage too.  And so can just >about any occupation where a lot of travel is involved.

I could see how a lot of travel could grate on a marriage. Mom, for example, got more than just a bit fed up being home alone with the kids while dad was always out on the road selling insurance. He finally had to give it up, trading it in for teaching highschool and regular home hours. On the other hand, a tiny bit of work travel can be good for a marriage. For example, I’m happy for the time I have with my wife, but for the three or four times a year she’s off to trade shows, I enjoy that solitude time as well. As well, there have also been at least a few of her work trips where I’ve come along, we’ve extended our stay, and made a vacation of the situation more economically than if we had to pay the full shot for travel ourselves. So to my own family experiences at least, a lot of occupational travel can add to marital stress, where as a bit of occupational travel can actually be more beneficial to a marital relationship than none at all. CJ

Response:

Our relationshio has various small problems ie… insistence on using only Amway products (even if I don,t like that particular product) Granted Amway has some good products, But as any Company does they also have some bad ones or just plain some too expensive ones. I love my wife with all my heart, sometimes tho it seems that the Amway brainwashing borders on the ridiculous. By the way I am a former Amway brainwashee so I do know the other side and underrstand how they think. I was pretty disturbed by the way the marketing was carried out and the type of person I was turning out to be when I was involved. Thanks for all the response, keep it coming Kevin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– From: CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> Newsgroups: alt.support.marriage Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:36 AM Subject: Re: Amway > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked >  (and leave off the "potatoes" CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> wrote in message news:3aa09f57.22892148@news.nac.net… > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked >  (and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

I’ve always had the belief that Amway will ruin a relationship unless both partners are in it 100%. Let me guess – your wife makes next to nothing in real profit, but "will… someday" — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9frefdafcame5@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Our relationshio has various small problems ie… insistence on using only > Amway products (even if I don,t like that particular product) Granted Amway > has some good products, But as any Company does they also have some bad ones > or just plain some too expensive ones. I love my wife with all my heart, > sometimes tho it seems that the Amway brainwashing borders on the > ridiculous. By the way I am a former Amway brainwashee so I do know the > other side and underrstand how they think. I was pretty disturbed by the way > the marketing was carried out and the type of person I was turning out to be > when I was involved. > Thanks for all the response, keep it coming > Kevin > —– Original Message —– > From: CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> > Newsgroups: alt.support.marriage > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:36 AM > Subject: Re: Amway > > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > way > > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > >  (and leave off the "potatoes" > CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> wrote in message > news:3aa09f57.22892148@news.nac.net… > > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > way > > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > >  (and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

Hi Kevin, I’m not a distributor, but I do know a few.  A co-worker was married 16 years when "they" got started in "the business".  That was about 6 years ago.  Their divorce was final last summer.  W said he was never home and found someone to fill in the gap.  Another co-worker says it ruined her daughter’s first marriage for the same reason – one of the two of them was always chasing a sale or going off to one function or another.  Another couple  that I know make it work, but that’s because they literally do it side by side.  As I understand the way that it’s structured, it’s together….on NOT.  Figuratively and literally. I hope this is somewhat of an answer for you. — – First Light     @——-We are each of us angels with only one wing; and it’s when we embrace each other that we can fly.—-/—@ "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a fishing question here. > Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > Kevin

Response:

The company as a whole is successful. But the people in it, overwhelmingly, are not. They get you in for a year or two, the suckers buy *everything* they use/own through amway, then they realize they are making *zero* monry, and they drop out. They seem to recruit from the lower-middle / middle class mostly. The people easiest to sell "the good life" to, as those people will believe it. The poor usually won’t, and generally won’t have the ambition the follow through (and afford the initial "kit"). But the middle class will put the kit on the credit card, charge a few suits (for the weekly "pump me ups"), and generally feel proud for awhile that they have a "business". They get nice little business cards made, and listen to Zig-Zigler tell them how great life can be. Most of them are smiling on the outside and putting up a successful "front" (wearing clothing and taking trips they cannot afford, so they can "keep up"…. really. I had several friends in Amway. They would charge a new suit, and fly to Florida for a three hour meeting, and fly home the same day. stuff they could hardly afford to do – but Amway made them feel like they couldn’t afford NOT to – it’s a bizzare company). Anyway, I’ve rambled enough. I’ve seen this company close up, and see what it does to people. It’s sad. — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "IgOr" <ignora…@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message

news:slrn99h3mt.4j4.ignoramus@nospam.invalid… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > * Our relationshio has various small problems ie… insistence on using only > * Amway products (even if I don,t like that particular product) Granted Amway > * has some good products, But as any Company does they also have some bad ones > * or just plain some too expensive ones. I love my wife with all my heart, > * sometimes tho it seems that the Amway brainwashing borders on the > * ridiculous. By the way I am a former Amway brainwashee so I do know the > * other side and underrstand how they think. I was pretty disturbed by the way > * the marketing was carried out and the type of person I was turning out to be > * when I was involved. > That’s interesting. So, what kind of brainswashing do they do? What > kinds of people do they recruit? Why are they successful? > igor > * Thanks for all the response, keep it coming > * > * Kevin > * —– Original Message —– > * From: CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> > * Newsgroups: alt.support.marriage > * Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:36 AM > * Subject: Re: Amway > * > * > * > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > * > > * > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > * way > * > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > * > > * > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > * > > * > > * > > * >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > * >  (and leave off the "potatoes" > * CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> wrote in message > * news:3aa09f57.22892148@news.nac.net… > * > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > * > > * > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > * way > * > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > * > > * > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > * > > * > > * > > * >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > * >  (and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail) > * > * > — > Don’t sweat the petty things and don’t pet the sweaty things. – George

Carlin

Response:

As I’ve seen it described here and as I’ve seen it out here in RL, Amway is a religion of sorts.  It’s things like this that make me jest the concept of religion. ISIS "IgOr" <ignora…@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message

news:slrn99j39n.jm9.ignoramus@nospam.invalid… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dan Kegel <d…@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote: > * First Light wrote: > * > I’m not a distributor, but I do know a few.  A co-worker was married 16 > * > years when "they" got started in "the business".  That was about 6 years > * > ago.  Their divorce was final last summer.  W said he was never home and > * > found someone to fill in the gap.  Another co-worker says it ruined her > * > daughter’s first marriage for the same reason – one of the two of them was > * > always chasing a sale or going off to one function or another. Another > * > couple  that I know make it work, but that’s because they literally do it > * > side by side.  As I understand the way that it’s structured, it’s > * > together….[or] NOT.  Figuratively and literally. > * > * Yep.  Amway is a lot like a charismatic church… > * there are plenty of fine people in it, but they believe weird things > I have yet to see a "fine" person in MLM. Fine people tend to not like > lying constantly. > — > Don’t sweat the petty things and don’t pet the sweaty things. – George

Carlin

Response:

Larry Kessler <l_k_e_s_s_l_e_r@w_t_._n_e_t> wrote in message

news:4cee9tksrq1jrfqniogd52t0emakba5sn3@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:11:14 -0500, "B and B" > <baboonnliz…@prodigy.net> wrote: > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > Nitpick Dept:  Most Borg vessels are cubes, not spheres.

Depends on which star trek you are watching.

Response:

"John Kendricks" <jd…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:3a99948c.245820765@news.cis.dfn.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Everything you have said is true.  Amway (also now known as Quixtar) > preys on people who cannot afford the things or the lifestyle they > want, and brainwashes them to believe that if they will attend > frequent seminars, spend all their time listening to brainwashing > tapes, buy exclusively from amway or quixtar, and pester their > friends, relatives, coworkers, aquaintances,  people in malls, etc. > nonstop, they will become fabulously wealthy. > Here are some good amway-info links: > http://www.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/amway.html > http://skepdic.com/amway.html > http://www.apollowebworks.com/amway/ > http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/amway/amo_qmo.htm > If anyone reading this is planning on getting involved with amway or > quixtar, or is already involved with them, reading the above links > could be the single most important thing you ever do to save yourself > much suffering, misery and agony.

I’ve found that these people who are ‘Quixtar/Amway Critics’ have no credibility at all on the subject, they are usually the most screwed-up-broke-done-nothing-in-life people I’ve ever met. Why on earth would I want to fill my head with a bunch garbage from people who have no credibility in the area of success?  I seriously doubt that these people ‘got in’ then ‘quit’ (actually quit something they probably didn’t put hardly any effort toward) and then when on to be successfull fathers, husbands, entreprenuers, race car drivers or anything.  I bet the the only good things they end up being good at is: justification & rationalization of why they are where they are finanically, complaining, remote control operation and butt print formation (in couch cushions). I’ve seen all sorts of different levels of success in this business opportunity and I’ve seen it actually pull dozens (probably 100s) of marriages together, and these are indirect benefits from any kind of prosperity.  For postive results like these, it requires to a certain amount of effort just like any kind of  business opportunity, job, church, etc. and if a person is too busy (translates to lazy) to apply himself  and put forth effort than he is going to fail. This IS the best business opportunity I have ever seen it provides a level playing field for everyone.  It is structured to make money and the business plan works only if you work it.  Depending upon where you are personally, mentally and emotionally, you may need to learn and develop some personal and business skills that will enable you to build a successful business.  So in order to succeed learn how to learn from someone who has already done what you want to do.  The main goal of business is to make money and this opportunity is a great way to get the money obstacle hurdled in your life unlike most jobs out there.  Jobs are simply not structured to create any kind of wealth for the employee. It IS NOT a religion, if any body tries to enforce their beliefs on you concerning your faith in your creator, they are off base.  This applies to anywhere in life including your boss at your job. Good business is never built on deception and if someone is using any kind of deceptive tactics then you should address this issue directly don’t give up until you are satisfied.  I’ve found that the truly successfull people in this business are very direct, honest and trustworthy; the business is structured so that success is based upon success and it is in nobody’s interest to decieve anybody. If you’re checking out this business, remember to consider the credibility of the person who is providing the information. And make sure to check it out for yourself and don’t listen to broke people or negative attitudes. Good Luck to you in what ever you decide to do -but decide to do something!

Response:

First Light wrote: > I’m not a distributor, but I do know a few.  A co-worker was married 16 > years when "they" got started in "the business".  That was about 6 years > ago.  Their divorce was final last summer.  W said he was never home and > found someone to fill in the gap.  Another co-worker says it ruined her > daughter’s first marriage for the same reason – one of the two of them was > always chasing a sale or going off to one function or another.  Another > couple  that I know make it work, but that’s because they literally do it > side by side.  As I understand the way that it’s structured, it’s > together….[or] NOT.  Figuratively and literally.

Yep.  Amway is a lot like a charismatic church… there are plenty of fine people in it, but they believe weird things – Dan

Response:

Everything you have said is true.  Amway (also now known as Quixtar) preys on people who cannot afford the things or the lifestyle they want, and brainwashes them to believe that if they will attend frequent seminars, spend all their time listening to brainwashing tapes, buy exclusively from amway or quixtar, and pester their friends, relatives, coworkers, aquaintances,  people in malls, etc. nonstop, they will become fabulously wealthy. Here are some good amway-info links: http://www.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/amway.html http://skepdic.com/amway.html http://www.apollowebworks.com/amway/ http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/amway/amo_qmo.htm If anyone reading this is planning on getting involved with amway or quixtar, or is already involved with them, reading the above links could be the single most important thing you ever do to save yourself much suffering, misery and agony.

Response:

Just a fishing question here. Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? Kevin

Response:

Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! Stay away!  Stay away!!!! Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not becoming one. Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause marital problems. Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a fishing question here. > Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > Kevin

Response:

>of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it >would cause marital problems.

If *both* are involved (and are devoted to it), it doesn’t seem like it’s a cause of problems. — Tracey Indigo: What sailors do when they see a bar                      —Funky Winkerbean—

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->From: "B and B" >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not >becoming one. >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause >marital problems. >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… >> Just a fishing question here. >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? >> Kevin

At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage.  Amway is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within a relationship. jadelee

Response:

Question:

Had a long trip to the back of beyond.Davis creek in the Yukon-Koyukuk Alaska region.The only artificials I took were DuPont spinners.Mining is such a bore compared to fly fishing.But the 4th was memorable.I shot down about 1000 yds3 of secondary and tertiary gravels for the guys to ash.( someone has to get the gold to plate hooks with )

Thank god you are back.  Finally these environuts will get off the timber industry and start in on the mining. <g   Welcome back to a working man’s hell. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

 Had a long trip to the back of beyond.Davis creek in the Yukon-Koyukuk Alaska region.The only artificials I took were DuPont spinners.Mining is such a bore compared to fly fishing.But the 4th was memorable.I shot down about 1000 yds3 of secondary and tertiary gravels for the guys to ash.( someone has to get the gold to plate hooks with ) —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

Response:

Question:

Hi all, I’m new to flyfishing and trying to learn as much as possible. This newsgroup is a great source…thanks to all who contribute. I was hoping that some of the group experts could take a look at a web page that I’ve set up with about 9 pictures of what I’m sure are very common dry flies (one nymph is included). A flyfishing guide purchased them for me some time back and now I’m interested in knowing more about them.  Also, if anyone knows of any color reference books or web pages that I can use to identify flies (many books are B&W <sigh…it would be most appreciated…thanks in advance everyone! The web address is http://members.aol.com/kraftshoot/flys.jpg

Response:

Hi all, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to flyfishing and trying to learn as much as possible. This newsgroup is a great source…thanks to all who contribute. I was hoping that some of the group experts could take a look at a web page that I’ve set up with about 9 pictures of what I’m sure are very common dry flies (one nymph is included). A flyfishing guide purchased them for me some time back and now I’m interested in knowing more about them.  Also, if anyone knows of any color reference books or web pages that I can use to identify flies (many books are B&W <sigh…it would be most appreciated…thanks in advance everyone! The web address is http://members.aol.com/kraftshoot/flys.jpg

The photos are a bit dark, and it is extremely difficult to analyse fly patterns just from photos anyway, but here goes. Flies one and two are "Compara duns" these are flies with split tails, a dubbed body, no hackle as such, and elk or deer hair "wings" tied in a specific fashion. Namely spread in a half circle over the upper part of the hook and tilted slightly forward.These are remarkably successful flies, and the tying materials and style are more important as recognition points than any specific patterns or colours. The flies shown are imitations of olives. Fly three is a spinner imitation with what looks like antron wings. Again an olive. I would prefer smoke blue antron as wings on such a fly, but the "transparent" antron works as well. Flies four and five are parachute style dry-flies, with what looks like calf tail post wings, standard cock hackle wound horizontally around the post, and again seem to be olives. Fly six is a more or less standard hackled dry fly with a relatively short hackle, and this is tied over about a third of the body, probably designed for rough water fishing. Once again an olive. Flies seven and eight  are once again Compara duns, and again olives. Fly nine is an emerger pattern, tied with a trailing shuck of hackle fibre The  bead head nymph, which could be used to imitate almost anything, but this again looks like it was tied to represent an olive nymph. Trying to learn the names of all these flies is a waste of time. As long as you know what you use it for, that is really all that matters. Whether it has a name, or is just a reasonable imitation is quite immaterial.  All of the flies shown look like good fish catchers, and could in fact be used in various sizes to imitate a whole host of naturals. But the range shown here are practically all olive imitations. For lists of various patterns etc try : http://www.virtualflyshop.com/ for info on Olives etc try : http://www.fishing-in-wales.co.uk/wildlife/insects/upwing/bwolive.htm You might also like to look at : http://www.virtualflybox.com/ http://freespace.virgin.net/fly.fishing/index.htm   for colour photos of many flies http://www.sea-ex.com/recreational1/fly1.htm In the meantime there are thousands of sites on the web with info on patterns and tying and fly-fishing generally. The best thing to do is use a good search engine, such as http://www.google.com   and start searching for some of them. You will soon find plenty which you can use. The sites above also have links to many others, which you can try. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

You were asking for someone to identify the flies – I don’t know if you were asking for specific names or not.  Mike gave you the *styles*, which I think is a good idea.  I saw a book recently that looks really good – it helps sort out these kinds of flies by style, and helps you organize them in your head.  There are color pictures of all, and it’s not real long or expensive (under $20 US). "Essential Trout Flies" by Dave Hughes.  He identifies the major styles (Comparadun, parachute, traditional Catskill, spent spinner, thorax, etc.) and tells under which conditions each would be best, and how to fish them, and how to tie them.  Check it out http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811727483/qid=963285608/sr=1-… -4362007-9744861 Good luck Regards, Jeff

Response:

Question:

While a Battenkill can be used in the Salt successfully, the Tibor and Abel are lifetime investments that are made by people who are going to use these reels many times a year over a period of years. Even with perfect care the Battenkill IMHO will not hold up to the continued stresses applied by Tarpon, Bonefish and especially Permit. My 2CW.

Response:

Hi, I had a Ross Colorado II go bad on me (defective click-pawl from that year’s model which they promptly fixed at my local flyfishing store).  My buddy, who I recommended the reel to, had a spring break in his Colorado while on the river.  Since he didn’t have a backup reel, he had to hike back to the car and drive to town to get it fixed.  When he contacted Ross later, they told him that it shouldn’t have broken if taken care of properly.  However, the reel was under a year old so that is really no excuse at all.  They eventually sent him another replacement spring just in case, but I would have second thoughts about purchasing another Ross reel because of his experience. Tom BTW, my friend eventually did buy another Ross Colorado I reel for his 3 wt. outfit.  I guess he wasn’t as bothered by the experience as I was. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi: I have Ross reels (a gunnison and a saltwater) and have been happy with them, but recently someone pointed out that the way the reels connect to the drag is a a big weak point with the reel design.  Specifically, there are two thin pins from the spool that lock on to the drag mechanism.  It was pointed out that the weakness lies in that these two pins locking into the drag system seem to be a rather flimsy way of putting things together.  Any comments as I am considering another Ross saltwater.  By the way, Ross claims that they have only had one reel go sour while in use. Thanks, Adam

Response:

It is sad that a reel manufacturing company can’t afford to mail a stupid spring to a customer who already was overcharged for an item made on a fanuc, computercized 3 axis sytem.  The reel took exactly 1 minute and 28 seconds to make, the housing, if they know what they are doing might take 1 minute 14 seconds.  Get the point? I have the Grand American Reel on the back burner Tom and I wish I was in production making the fnest single action reel in the world.  My plans are to be able to offer a $500 dollar reel for $75 bucks.  I just don’t have the machinery anymore. I am simply stating if you  were a customer of mine, you would never be unhappy.  This reel business is so full of shit I can’t believe it. It saddens me to see how these other reel manufacturers are still so arrogant with their customers.  I just might get involved again.  I invented the Marryat, and the Grand American . . . I’m just about ready to make a positive move if any more of this nonsense continues. I’m gone.  I’m listening. George Gehrke Fished hard this eveing for Ironheads, one bump, no fish. rats. But the evening was beautiful.  High cliffs and when the owls started to fly, I went home.

Response:

Hi: I have Ross reels (a gunnison and a saltwater) and have been happy with them, but recently someone pointed out that the way the reels connect to the drag is a a big weak point with the reel design.  Specifically, there are two thin pins from the spool that lock on to the drag mechanism.  It was pointed out that the weakness lies in that these two pins locking into the drag system seem to be a rather flimsy way of putting things together.  Any comments as I am considering another Ross saltwater.  By the way, Ross claims that they have only had one reel go sour while in use. Thanks, Adam

Response:

Hi: I have Ross reels (a gunnison and a saltwater) and have been happy with them, but recently someone pointed out that the way the reels connect to the drag is a a big weak point with the reel design.  Specifically, there are two thin pins from the spool that lock on to the drag mechanism.  It was pointed out that the weakness lies in that these two pins locking into the drag system seem to be a rather flimsy way of putting things together.  Any comments as I am considering another Ross saltwater.  By the way, Ross claims that they have only had one reel go sour while in use. Thanks, Adam

Hi All, I have never seen that part of a Ross reel fail. Many reel manufactures wish they had the dependability record of  Ross. We are talking about reels under $350, so we can’t compare them to an Abel or Tibor that are over $500 and well worth their price. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

Hi All, I have never seen that part of a Ross reel fail. Many reel manufactures wish they had the dependability record of  Ross. We are talking about reels under $350, so we can’t compare them to an Abel or Tibor that are over $500 and well worth their price.

I wonder how the Able or Tibor compares to the Orvis Battenkill reels? From what I have seen the drag system seems very good on these reels – especially for the price (around $100)! -Greg

Response:

Question:

Now, what did you expect making a comment like that n a jeep ng…. What a weenie…

Response:

 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".

You don’t understand its a Jeep thing. — Its a Jeep thing..You would’t understand. URL: http://the-threshold.org/gallery/jeep                   OR Its an Anoraks thing.. You don’t want to understand URL: http://the-threshold.org/Anorak-Offroad

Response:

 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting… " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

  that was funny. Sorry guys and gals. I have to be a traitor on this one. I live in a college town. And here the average Jeep driver’s values and experiences have very little in line with me. Unless it’s clearly built or restored, it’s just another car. -ejs

Response:

 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". You don’t understand its a Jeep thing.

Is this anything like "alternative music" ? —

Response:

Wow! If it isn’t Muskie the Wonder Troll returning to haunt our newsgroups!   Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"

You still can’t get it right:  "It’s a Jeep thing… you wouldn’t understand" is the phrase. Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow. What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.

Those that I have seen who have actually bestowed the phrase on their vehicle are generally those who actually take the vehicles off-road, go camping, lead an active life style, toss on a trailer of jet-ski’s or dirt bikes and actually have a life.  These people go to the Jeep Jamboree’s, the Trail Runs, etc.  They are far from ’sheep’ though a few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

Response:

How much would an Old Man Emu lift cost on an 86 cherokee?  I am looking for ball park estimates on the ~3" lift reviewed on off-road.com (i think). Also, are there web sources for Old Man Emu ordering? Thanks, jeremiah — 86 cherokee – soon to be a 3.4 L V6!!!!

Response:

Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"

If your idiotic flame bait bothered me at all, you might be right… Motorcycles have the same cadre relationship.  When you’re on a bike or a harley, almost *everybody* waves.  It is no different, and I think anybody who buys a jeep or a bike only for the waves is going to be sorely disappointed. Besides, it IS a JEEP thing, and you CLEARLY DO NOT understand.  at all… jeremiah — 86 cherokee – soon to be a 3.4 L V6!!!!

Response:

few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer.

I for one appreciate all the Yuppie’s buying new cherokees and TJs… I see it as fodder for myself in 5 or 6 years when I’ll be buying a used 99… just think of all those Yuppie jeeps as replacement parts.  never seen the mud, never been bashed over rocks or seen any real duty.  I think its just great. jeremiah — 86 cherokee – soon to be a 3.4 L V6!!!!

Response:

few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer. I for one appreciate all the Yuppie’s buying new cherokees and TJs… I see it as fodder for myself in 5 or 6 years when I’ll be buying a used 99… just think of all those Yuppie jeeps as replacement parts.  never seen the mud, never been bashed over rocks or seen any real duty.  I think its just great.

hehe, I must admit I never thought of it that way.. but I have thought of it as a way to keep the vehicles in production and to keep the prices somewhat down.. on the other hand the high demand has surged what should be an $18-22k vehicle up to nearly $40k.. almost a full half of which is profit for Chrysler. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

Response:

HUH?! Where the hell is your point? Meanwhile, if you don’t understand – don’t bother trying.  Obviously, you don’t own a Jeep, so there’s your first obstacle.  The next is being a brand-loyal four-wheeler, where everybody who doesn’t drive you’re particular make of vehicle is pond-scum.  And finally, you’re a little dissatisfied with whatever make of vehicle you’re driving (and a little envious of a Jeep) to take issue with something you don’t or want to understand.  Get a life. I do think that we, as four-wheelers, need to recognize all makes and models as brethren and form an even larger following with a much more accurate motto:  "It’s a 4×4 thing…you asphalt-bound grocery-getters certainly wouldn’t understand."  Anybody with a purpose-built, fill-tilt-boogie off road rig (no matter what it is) gets a wave and nod-of-approval from me. Until then, it’s just us Jeepers… Eric ‘80 CJ-7 – 4" Pro Comp, 33×15.50 Swampers, and way too many other things to mention, ‘85 Nissan King Cab 4×4 – 31×10.50 AT’s, no lift, gets me to work and pulls the boat. — Opinions, everybody’s got one of those, too. You know how to Reply…

Response:

Muskie,        Just when we thought Mr. Troll himself had finally gone away it slithers back in… I have a jeep because I always wanted one and I could care less who else has one. The jeep wave is a tradition, not really a club thing.  I know, you don’t get it. What does "It’s a jeep thing" mean?  It’s a diverse cultural association.  I think you exemplify a jeep cultural disassociation when you wrote "it’s just a d*** car."  That’s the difference.  I doubt you’re bright enough to figure it out though. Don To avoid a flame war I must add.  I am biased to jeeps but there are other manufacturers that build excellent vehicles.  This retort is aimed specifically at Muskie and not other vehicle afficianados. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people. <really long boring story snipped   Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds.  " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.   " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

Response:

Well, when I see somebody in a 90-96 300ZX I certainly wave… Alex

[big snip]

Response:

No that would be a RAV4, CRV, etc… No one knows what the hell it is and what purpose it serves!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". You don’t understand its a Jeep thing. Is this anything like "alternative music" ? —

Response:

 The only so called "jeepers" who really know what the "jeep thing" is, are the one’s who actually see the logic behind driving in the rain with a bikini and no doors as everyone looks at you thinking "you idiot, youre getting wet"!  I’ll share that logic with you too……It’s FUN!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!" Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow. What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people. Here comes Barbi Anne, driving her new pink Jeep onto the gravel national forest road. Ken is heading her way in his new blue Jeep, and he waves the "jeep wave" to Barbi. Barbi waves back, smiling and giggling.  "I really belong" , thinks Barbi. " I really belong to a group of people that like me for my automobile purchase.  I feel really good about that."   Barbi Anne smiles a faint smile and continues down the road.  A few seconds later, Outback Johnny passes Barbi Anne in his new green Jeep, and waves. Barbi Anne waves back. Continuing down the road, Barbi Anne responds to 34 waves from Jeepers.  " It’s a Jeep thing!"  they all yell at her. " It’s a Jeep thing!" Further down the road, Barbi Anne’s progress is temporarily halted by a herd of sheep crossing the road to greener pastures. She listens to their bleating and babbling, and observes how they all huddle together. "baaaaa…..baaaaaaaaa…bleeeeeeeet…….baaaaaaaaa".  The sheep huddle even closer across the road. " baaaaaaaa…its a jeep thing….. ……bleeeeeettttt."   The sheep babble even louder, then slowly pass over a low hill on the horizon.   Barbi Anne drives her Jeep down the road, glad that she was pressured by friends to belong to the "Jeep Thing".  Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds. " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.  " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

Response:

Wow, I guess you don’t understand.  I for one have always loved the Wrangler, and I just bought my 98 TJ in June(having no knowledge of the "Jeep Thing" or the waves I would get from fellow Jeepers)  I actually had to ask a friend who owns a YJ about the wave….he told me H wasn’t sure about it either.  As soon as I hit 1500 miles, I was off the pavement, with the top and the door removed.  I have no problem with any brand of 4X4, although I like some less than others  But honestly, I have never seen another group of drivers as friendly with those they don’t know or as willing to help out when someone needs it.  I’ve taken my stock(so far) jeep a few places a little above the level I should, and the one time I got stuck, I was still amazed how well it did. Ok, no more rambling…..I’m sure you’re sick of me by now

Response:

I had a jeep and I loved it thy are good for mud raceing and for what ever ** HAVE A NICE DAY LARRY & KAREN **

Response:

The jeeps I drove for many years were OD, that’s a different thing. The only thing now is Jeeps have become another temporary fad for the brtaibnless yuppies. This too soon will pass and jeeps will go back to being driven by real people who like them for what they are instead of a phoney status symbol. I can wait. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.  Here comes Barbi Anne, driving her new pink Jeep onto the gravel national forest road. Ken is heading her way in his new blue Jeep,  and he waves the "jeep wave" to Barbi. Barbi waves back, smiling and giggling.  "I really belong" , thinks Barbi. " I really belong to a group of people that like me for my automobile purchase.  I feel really good about that."   Barbi Anne smiles a faint smile and continues down the road.  A few seconds later, Outback Johnny passes Barbi Anne in his new green Jeep, and waves. Barbi Anne waves back.  Continuing down the road, Barbi Anne responds to 34 waves from Jeepers.   " It’s a Jeep thing!"  they all yell at her. " It’s a Jeep thing!"  Further down the road, Barbi Anne’s progress is temporarily halted by a herd of sheep crossing the road to greener pastures. She listens to their bleating and babbling, and observes how they all huddle together.  "baaaaa…..baaaaaaaaa…bleeeeeeeet…….baaaaaaaaa".  The sheep  huddle even closer across the road. " baaaaaaaa…its a jeep thing….. ……bleeeeeettttt."   The sheep babble even louder, then slowly pass over a low hill on the horizon.   Barbi Anne drives her Jeep down the road, glad that she was pressured by friends to belong to the "Jeep Thing".   Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds.  " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.   " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

Response:

few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer. I for one appreciate all the Yuppie’s buying new cherokees and TJs… I see it as fodder for myself in 5 or 6 years when I’ll be buying a used 99… just think of all those Yuppie jeeps as replacement parts.  never seen the mud, never been bashed over rocks or seen any real duty.  I think its just great.

I agree with this.  The only problem is that it seems a number of the new Jeeps are automatics.  Frankly, that’s sacrilege! — Cheers…Craig — Good manners and bad breath get you nowhere – Elvis Costello — It’s no use to blame the looking glass if your face is awry – S.J. Perelman — People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don’t realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world – Calvin (& Hobbes)

Response:

The only so called "jeepers" who really know what the "jeep thing" is, are the one’s who actually see the logic behind driving in the rain with a bikini and no doors as everyone looks at you thinking "you idiot, youre getting wet"!  I’ll share that logic with you too……It’s FUN!!!

I often get asked if my Miata is a rental since I usually leave the top down unless it is absolutely pouring or I’m in stop/go traffic. Others don’t understand that Jeeps are waterproofed from the get-go, right down to a pair of drain holes in the floorboards! Ever wonder why most CJ and Wrangler variants didn’t even come with carpetting on the floors? Too bad it’s a hassle to take the doors off and front window down now.. (sigh) Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve only had my ‘90 YJ for about 2years but …….here’s my two cents….about the "Its a jeep thing" motto I was a Boy Scout growing up, did alot of camping every summer, I was taught to respect nature, be resourceful, prepared, efficient while also being simple and functional. IMHO jeeps fit in very smoothly w/ my yuppie who only buys a jeep for the "image", and never takes it off roading….what a waste….. I dont remember where I read it, but another jeep owner made the observation that when cruising down the road/trail jeep owners inevitably always nod/wave/check out each others jeep, but you hardly ever/never see other people check out each others Metro/Toyota/Caprice/whatever……Jeeps have a tradition and jeep owners who humbly acknowledge this are the coolest. People who live by the "Its a Jeep thing motto", stop to help others out, dont drive recklessly, etc…..I think I’ll quit my rambling now……

Thank you for stating so eloquently what a lot of us are all about! Btw, I’m lucky enough to be a member of two very distinct ‘families’, the Jeep Family (by way of a lightly modded ‘93 ZJ V8 which has nearly 1/3rd of it’s 62,000 miles off road!) and the Miata club which, at least in off-road deprived Florida, is the more active and certainly more friendly of the two.  I also fall under the helping hand column. Heck, it was only Friday afternoon that I helped a poor lady push her out of gas car half a mile down the road to get it off of the worst part of the freeway.  :) You’re right.. some people just don’t get it. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

Response:

damn muskie that was good. i haven`t had such a good laugh in a long time . the thoughts of you playing on the floor with your barbie & ken dolls in jeeps cracked me up. could you entertain us with something about " its a 4×4 thing "  or  " its a harley thing "  or maybe a tough one like " its a man thing " ?  but please dont use your ken & barbie dolls again, i couldn`t stand the laughter. Jim

Response:

<excellent commentary snipped Some Jeep drivers understand that.  Nothing against Toyotas or Chevys or any other vehicle or the people that driver them…it’s just a Jeep thing.

Here’s one hint: Why does everyone in a CRV, Rav-4, Tracker, Sidekick, Samurai, etc. always say "We’ll take my Jeep" but no one in a Jeep would ever say "We’ll take my CRV, etc."? There is only one Jeep. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

Response:

   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.

No, it’s true that you don’t understand but that’s okay. The sheep that you’re referring to might be the demographic majority of Jeep drivers, but those are not the people who wave at each other and say "It’s a Jeep thing."  The "Jeep thing" element, you might find, has more disdain for "sorority Jeeps," "college Jeeps," "soccer mom Jeeps," "street jeeps" and "yuppie Jeeps" than anybody. Some people like F-14s and others would rather ride a P-38 or a P-51. Some people don’t know what a P-38 is, but they’ve seen Top Gun so they think they’re aviation enthusiasts. There are those that want to belong to a group of rugged individualists, and there are those that just do.  (I’ll be modest here as I can, but as a pilot, rock singer, writer, computer geek, civil war reenactor and active environmentalist, I might not be rugged but I’m individualist…) Jeep was the first word I learned to spell, and I promised by grandfather when I was three that I would buy him a Jeep.  Image had nothing to do with it.  My oldest toy, a 1960s Tonka Jeep CJ3B, sits on my desk at work. Raise your hand if you had an infatuation with Nissan when you were three. The thing is, if you go over to the Jeep newsgroup, you’ll see that I’m not an exception…I’m average.  Probably less that average if you pay attention to the complexity of knowledge of their vehicle that some people there have.  You’ll also notice their head spin to look when they see a Willys other other vintage Jeep.  It has nothing to do with the driver. Don’t think about the guy behind the wheel…think of the Jeep. Regardless of the year, a Jeep stripped of its hard top and doors is a classic.  If you’ve ever driven through the country, tackled an ominous "intermediate" 4×4 trail with a stock Jeep or even just cruised the highway with the top off on a sunny day, you understand.  If you’ve ever pulled off the side of the road on an August evening and looked straight up at a meteor shower, you’re getting there.   If you’ve ever yanked a built-up vehicle out of a mudhole or driven your stock Jeep around a 4×4 bogged down on a snow-covered hill, you’re there. Not to trash other 4×4s…I’ve seen old Landcruisers and a heavily-modified Samurai command respect where lesser drivers in Jeeps failed…but why drive a flimsy, overpriced derivative when you can drive the real thing?   There’s just nothing like climbing up into an old CJ and staring down the short nose.  It has the feel of an old warbird…the sound of the engine, the smell of the Jeep, the feeling that you’ve strapped on wheels. It’s not the fault of Jeep drivers that these sturdy classics appear to have gone soft, but while middle America drives around the suburb in the Jeep equivalent of a sports car, those of us die-hard Jeep fans who have driven the new TJs have come to appreciate that under the cloth and plastic interior there is still a bad-ass trail truck that isn’t laden down with mystery parts and strange devices that prevent us from getting under them and making our own modifications. Some Jeep drivers understand that.  Nothing against Toyotas or Chevys or any other vehicle or the people that driver them…it’s just a Jeep thing. Chris Gattman              |  "..And the sky is humming,

Response:

I’ve only had my ‘90 YJ for about 2years but …….here’s my two cents….about the "Its a jeep thing" motto I was a Boy Scout growing up, did alot of camping every summer, I was taught to respect nature, be resourceful, prepared, efficient while also being simple and functional. IMHO jeeps fit in very smoothly w/ my yuppie who only buys a jeep for the "image", and never takes it off roading….what a waste….. I dont remember where I read it, but another jeep owner made the observation that when cruising down the road/trail jeep owners inevitably always nod/wave/check out each others jeep, but you hardly ever/never see other people check out each others Metro/Toyota/Caprice/whatever……Jeeps have a tradition and jeep owners who humbly acknowledge this are the coolest. People who live by the "Its a Jeep thing motto", stop to help others out, dont drive recklessly, etc…..I think I’ll quit my rambling now…… –jason

Response:

 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.  Here comes Barbi Anne, driving her new pink Jeep onto the gravel national forest road. Ken is heading her way in his new blue Jeep,  and he waves the "jeep wave" to Barbi. Barbi waves back, smiling and giggling.  "I really belong" , thinks Barbi. " I really belong to a group of people that like me for my automobile purchase.  I feel really good about that."   Barbi Anne smiles a faint smile and continues down the road.  A few seconds later, Outback Johnny passes Barbi Anne in his new green Jeep, and waves. Barbi Anne waves back.  Continuing down the road, Barbi Anne responds to 34 waves from Jeepers.   " It’s a Jeep thing!"  they all yell at her. " It’s a Jeep thing!"  Further down the road, Barbi Anne’s progress is temporarily halted by a herd of sheep crossing the road to greener pastures. She listens to their bleating and babbling, and observes how they all huddle together.  "baaaaa…..baaaaaaaaa…bleeeeeeeet…….baaaaaaaaa".  The sheep  huddle even closer across the road. " baaaaaaaa…its a jeep thing….. ……bleeeeeettttt."   The sheep babble even louder, then slowly pass over a low hill on the horizon.   Barbi Anne drives her Jeep down the road, glad that she was pressured by friends to belong to the "Jeep Thing".   Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds.  " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.     " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know some good small streams around portland?

Response:

Yeah, this is a hard question to get an answer to.   I THINK the best tactic is to look southeast of Portland, in the foothills of Mt Hood, but the locals don’t weant to talk much.  E-mail one of the flyshops up there and see what they say.  All else fails, try the streams around Breitenbush. — Ken Brown Satis elequontiae, sapientiae parum.

Response:

Question:

: What are the pros and cons of the expensive fly lines vs. the lower end : lines.  For example the Cortland 444 lazer vs the 333 lines.  Thanks   There are differences when you compare these two lines. The Cortland 444 is the industry standard fly line. It is offered in many more types and configurations than the 333. The 333 is the predecessor to the 444. The 444 is more supple, longer lasting, and slick than the 333. It also comes with a one year warrenty against failure. My experience with Cortland is that any 444 line returned will be replaced for free. This happened one year at the shop where we had many customers come back with defective lines. We had instructions from Cortland to take back all lines at that time. Their testing showed that they had a bad batch!   There is also a higher performance level with the more expensive lines. I find that they float higher and are easier to cast. The best line Cortland currently has is the 444 LazerLine. It has a textered finish. This line is the most supple, easiest mending, and farthest shooting line of any "general purpose" trout line I have used. Both 333 and 444 are good lines Jon Porter

Response:

What are the pros and cons of the expensive fly lines vs. the lower end lines.  For example the Cortland 444 lazer vs the 333 lines.  Thanks

In my opinion there aren’t many differences between lines that make a huge difference.  Higher priced lines are usually made from better materials(tougher, stronger, self lubricating, Uv resistant, etc.) but the taper really isn’t a measure of "quality".  It all depends on your casting style and requirements.  Some line may better match your technique and give better results (i.e. some people may perfere the same line in double taper vs. weight forward or vice versa).  Your fishing requirements (if they are very specific)  may demand that you must spend the extra money for a higher   end line but that is sometimes the nature of the beast!  Good luck,                         Joshua Haddock

Response: