Question:

I like Outbacks, but at 6′3" (not overly tall) I found they have a serious lack of legroom.  I don’t see how you can say they have way more interior space than an average SUV, as my smallish 2-door Explorer is roomier.

If the Outback is too small for you, look at the Forester.  It has more room in all ways, but still isn’t a gas hog or road-warrier. — David L. Johnson    __o   | I don’t believe you, you’ve got the whole damn thing all wrong.  _`(,_  | He’s not the kind you have to wind-up on Sundays.  –Ian (_)/ (_) | Anderson   — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof.

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out. A 4 runner towed me out – for a case of beer. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out. A 4 runner towed me out – for a case of beer.

20 PSI is generally too high. Try 15 or even 10 PSI next time and you can probably go anywhere. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

in rec.autos.4×4, Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out.

Down to 20psi? For sand try more like 5-8 psi…. I run 2-3 psi in the snow/sand. ~Brian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot

I thought those fancy modern "All Wheel Drive" systems are supposed to power the wheels that DO get traction. I guess I’ll stick with my old assumption, that AWD is good for cars on less-than-perfect roads / weather, and not much else. Maybe different AWD systems from different manufacturers are better or worse. — Rick Onanian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot I thought those fancy modern "All Wheel Drive" systems are supposed to power the wheels that DO get traction. I guess I’ll stick with my old assumption, that AWD is good for cars on less-than-perfect roads / weather, and not much else. Maybe different AWD systems from different manufacturers are better or worse.

  There is a small difference between the AWD system on   cars like the Porsche Turbo, Audi S6, Lamborghini,   Porsche Cayenne, and the considerably less expensive   ones found on lesser vehicles.

Response:

I’ve driven my Jeep Wrangler on the NC outer banks beaches.  It’s actually pretty tough conditions getting over the dune trails.  I saw a Subaru getting pulled out of the deep sand – he was buried up to his frame, and two really big 4wd trucks were having trouble getting him out.  Depending on recent weather, you might have to drive quite a distance through the softest, driest sand you can imagine, with really deep tracks that require good clearance.  On the beach I see mostly 4WD trucks and "normal/large" size SUVs, not the small ones.  You need to lower your tire pressure to 15-10 psi.  Once you clear the really soft sand you can drive easily.  There’s nothing like the outer banks beaches – sometimes you can drive till you can barley see another vehicle, and have a mile of beach all to yourself.  Other times it’s like a parking lot of 4×4s.  Not sure why.  You can also ride a mountain bike along the hard sand at the water’s edge, but the sand and salt are really bad for the bike… Brad — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

This past April I had my GMC Sarfari AWD van on the beaches in Hatteras… deflate the air pressure in your tires to 20psi and off you go!!! Everything fits in, or, or behind the van. — Marty S. Baltimore, MD  USA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

– rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

James, If I had the money to blow on a new car, I’d probably buy a Honda Element. This seems to meet all of your criteria, and is available in four wheel drive. We (wife and I) have considered buying one but have decided to wait a couple of years for a Hybrid gasoline/ electric vehicle. (Toyota Highlander, Ford Escape, and Saturn VUE hybrids will all available within the next couple of years, as will a Toyota Sienna Hybrid AWD (a real wallet-buster, no doubt.) Until then, we’re still cramming all of our stuff into our Saturn Wagon! The bikes go on a receiver hitch rack in the back. Dave Wissenbach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

– rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

I guess for the beach you need wide tires and 4 wheel drive? I am sure that down around Corpus Christi they have some favorite vehicles? I think I have seen Chevy Suburbans in some articles? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA www.kiene.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

– rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof.

I like Outbacks, but at 6′3" (not overly tall) I found they have a serious lack of legroom.  I don’t see how you can say they have way more interior space than an average SUV, as my smallish 2-door Explorer is roomier.  Maybe more cargo space than a CRV or RAV 4, but those are quite a bit smaller than average size and still have more legroom. Nice vehicles though if you can fit in them. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

Be wary of the Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape twins (they are mechanically identical, built by Ford).  They are good vehicles on paper, but have fairly poor reliability and resale value. The Jeep Liberty also has shown poor reliability and resale.  It is more capable off road than the Tribute/Escape but rides rougher, doesn’t drive as nice, is less roomy and gets poorer fuel economy. A well used Toyota 4-runner would be a better vehicle than either the Escape/Tribute or the Liberty are new.  But it is probably more than what you need. Take a long look at a Subaru Outback or Forester.  Also a Honda CRV and Toyota RAV4 would probably meet your needs.  The CRV is especially nice for kids as it has a minivan-like passthough to the back seats. The Hyundai Santa Fe is also a nice vehicle and comes with a great warranty. Do your research and be sure to look at total cost of ownership, including resale value and maintenence costs.  You will find Ford, GM, and Chrysler products really struggle there, while Honda is typically the best. Check out this article: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-08-15-carcosts_x.htm The "cute-utes" are not real off road vehicles only if you plan to rock hop with the Jeeps. They should do fine for what you described. If you had any heavy towing to do I would say differently.  It would be silly to get a more capable 4×4 you would rarely if ever need, and you may get annoyed with the "truckyness" that comes with the bigger 4×4s.  I sure do.  Then again, I really don’t know how serious your off-road plans are.  But I’m guessing not as serious as you think. When I was in high school, my dad had a 2-wheel drive 4-cylinder Ranger.  You may be surprised where I took that thing.  It made a fine hunting vehicle. I can tell you with absolute certainty to stay away from Ford Explorers.  I have one and it is the biggest piece of junk I have ever owned.  And it doesn’t even have 60,000 miles on it yet.  The initial price made it seem like a good value.  But it’s been anything but. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof. Barry — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Is it necessary to post again? Well, I’ll reply to a couple other points… we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are

Only if you want one. good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

I’ve never seen a campground or park that requires a real 4×4 to get to the site. The worst I’ve seen is the Winterhawk bluegrass festival, which requires you to get up a big, steep hill; if it’s muddy, 2-wheel drive vehicles have a tough time. Some campgrounds do have rather rough paths, but all that’s required is a little extra ground clearance. we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use.

This is when you’ll use it most, on the road. You should probably make that a priority. road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way..

Compact SUVs, as well as larger ones built on a car platform, are not off-road vehicles, no matter what the manufacturer claims. They can handle grass, the path to the campground, etc; but tough stuff like deep in the woods or in deep sand, you need quite the ballsy off-road pickup (or SUV built on a pickup truck platform). Do you expect to drive on the beach? I’ve only ever seen vehicles allowed on the beach on TV shows like Baywatch; nowhere I’ve been, have I seen vehicles permitted to drive onto the sand, or anywhere out of the parking lot. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE?

The Ford Escape is a car-based SUV. It will do anything spectacular. It probably gives a pretty good ride on the road. how is the Jeep liberty?

Reportedly, the Liberty is okay. Never driven one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess

I don’t drive anything on the beach. For fishing/camping/biking, I drove a 1997 Pontiac Grand Am for 5 years; a 1987 Cadillac Sedan Deville for a couple years before that; and now I drive a full size pickup, specifically, a 2002 GMC Sierra 4×4, extended cab, etc. The Caddy and the Pontiac did fine for all sorts of off-road situations, although I did bend a wheel by going too fast in the Caddy on a very rough trail. People who think a low-slung, 2wd car can’t go off road, either have never done it, or are unskilled off-road drivers. They can’t do really gnarly off road stuff; but car-based SUVs can’t either, except that they can deal with a little bit slipperier conditions and a little bit higher clearance issues. ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget

My GMC Sierra, which does NOT have any sort of off-road package, and has lame-looking road tires, is the most comfortable vehicle I’ve ever driven. The tires, which look lame, provide ample grip in all sorts of snow, mud, etc. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute?

I can’t imagine why not. can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james

– Rick Onanian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

You might want to look at the Suzuki XL-7 (4 wheel drive version).  You could get the third row seat version and still stay close to the upper limit of your price range.  Even an ‘02 model would be good, and most (those sold after August last year) have a transferable 7 year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.  It might be worth looking at. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Question:

… my current batch of hiking pals are dropping fast or becomin a mite surly.

Well, not surly so much…. Wolfgang who misses ya sorely    :)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – get in shape zimbo.  i’ve still got a few places i’d like to prospect for ol’ mr. trout in graham and swain co… my current batch of hiking pals are dropping fast or becomin a mite surly. It’s a deal, Jeffie. I just bought me a Garmin eTrex Vista so’s I’ll be able to remember how to get back to all these beauty-filled streams Waldo’s taken me to over the last year. As for getting in shape, well I’m still a young-un and not old enough to know that fishing isn’t supposed to be a workout. You show me the trail and I’ll stay with ya. –Steve

well alrighty then… bring the digital camera too.   all too soon, as you’ll discover, with increasing age the mental pictures don’t last as long as they once did… let me know when you’d like to go… jeff

Response:

…it was the best of times… looking forward to the next of times.  it hurts so good, gotta do it again soon… there’s another nc mountain paradise to visit.  it’s a short boat ride and a bit of a walk… but it’s sure to fill up your soul for a while. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … my current batch of hiking pals are dropping fast or becomin a mite surly. Well, not surly so much…. Wolfgang who misses ya sorely    :)

Response:

…none of us knew when you were coming in or where you were staying. sorry we missed you. i was the last one out this afternoon. hope the rain let up for you…

How much rain did you get? Please lie and tell me it was the singular greatest fishing event of your entire life. That would sure help me sleep better at night. –Steve

Response:

I lived in West Virginia where I taught school for one school year.

Did you ever happen to catch "The Dancin’ Outlaw" on PBS? Seriously surreal piece documenting the life and strange times of one Jesco White, the self-proclaimed "Last of the True Mountain Dancers." Guaranteed to make you laugh exactly at the same time you’re cringing (and if you like that feeling, check out the short fiction of George Saunders). You can get a small taste of Jesco at http://www.pelsor.com/jesco_white.htm, though a Google search will give you plenty of options to sample. – Sid not even sure you miss WV, but thought a kick was in the offing

Response:

How much rain did you get? Please lie and tell me it was the singular greatest fishing event of your entire life. That would sure help me sleep better at night. –Steve

…well, this one is for you zimbo… the weather was great (til yesterday – my birthday, of course) and the fishin was incredible – the catchin, well… i haven’t been doin this as long as most around here, but if catching brookies and rainbows in nearly every pool promotes your sleep, i’ll wake you next week. …wolfgang has captured the essence of the week in his post, sorta.  he missed the boat trip across fontana lake to wayno’s "memento", but i made sure his hiking socks made it. i think they gave me a blister… get in shape zimbo.  i’ve still got a few places i’d like to prospect for ol’ mr. trout in graham and swain co… my current batch of hiking pals are dropping fast or becomin a mite surly. jeff

Response:

get in shape zimbo.  i’ve still got a few places i’d like to prospect for ol’ mr. trout in graham and swain co… my current batch of hiking pals are dropping fast or becomin a mite surly.

It’s a deal, Jeffie. I just bought me a Garmin eTrex Vista so’s I’ll be able to remember how to get back to all these beauty-filled streams Waldo’s taken me to over the last year. As for getting in shape, well I’m still a young-un and not old enough to know that fishing isn’t supposed to be a workout. You show me the trail and I’ll stay with ya. –Steve

Response:

Is that you George? Is that you Skunked?

Nice going Warren! Opie read this just before we went fishing on yet another stream no one would tell me the name of and was so depressed he jumped off the top of a 400 foot waterfall.  Nice pool at the bottom (I caught a beautiful 14 inch brown out of it a bit later) but he missed it by about 6 feet.  I am trying to console his mother while enjoying not only my own, but also Opie’s portion of the spaghetti she made for us. Wolfgang trying to save just a little room for dessert

Response:

Trust me Opus.  What I don’t know about fly fishing is infinitely greater then what I know,

HAH! A fig for those who say you are incapable of telling the truth! and no, that wasn’t me Opus.  

And no, Georgie, it ain’t ME Opus either. I’m just a Ghost of Fly Fishing Past.   My name hangs on the winds of time.  

Your name has broken the wind of time. You know me, you just don’t understand the whispered words.

You know me.  You just cain’t figgur it out (the words are in English, unless I’m badly mistaken). Not Pete

Response:

  Nice going Warren! Opie read this just before we went fishing on yet another stream no one would tell me the name of and was so depressed he jumped off the top of a 400 foot waterfall.  Nice pool at the bottom (I caught a beautiful 14 inch brown out of it a bit later) but he missed it by about 6 feet.  I am trying to console his mother while enjoying not only my own, but also Opie’s portion of the spaghetti she made for us. Wolfgang trying to save just a little room for dessert

Sounds like you are making due there Wolfie <g  Tell Opie he can catch fish tomorrow because I will say a small prayer to Norm, the god of fishing and luck, tonight asking him to watch over Opie. — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

Who asked you anything guy? And this is Pete.

  george.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

 I lived in West Virginia where I taught school for one school year. Fall was immensely beautiful, but the rest of my experience there left much to be desired. Willi

        god made west virginia long before he came up with north carolina.  obviously, practice makes perfect. your friend in the old north state wayno

Response:

…none of us knew when you were coming in or where you were staying. sorry we missed you. i was the last one out this afternoon. hope the rain let up for you… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    don’t know where them boys are at exactly, but I’ve got a Tracker comin up from Georgia and goin to meet me at Popeye’s Restaraunt in Robbinsville and we’re goin to find them…. Probably won’t get there until Fri or Sat nite…….they me have all left by then….Fri Sat and Sun I’ll be at http://www.atcampground.com/index.html john

Response:

   don’t know where them boys are at exactly, but I’ve got a Tracker comin up from Georgia and goin to meet me at Popeye’s Restaraunt in Robbinsville and we’re goin to find them…. Probably won’t get there until Fri or Sat nite…….they me have all left by then….Fri Sat and Sun I’ll be at http://www.atcampground.com/index.html john

Response:

  don’t know where them boys are at exactly, but I’ve got a Tracker comin up from Georgia and goin to meet me at Popeye’s Restaraunt in Robbinsville and we’re goin to find them…. Probably won’t get there until Fri or Sat nite…….they me have all left by then….Fri Sat and Sun I’ll be at http://www.atcampground.com/index.html

I just got back from there, not sure how many are staying into the weekend. Just head up towards the Snowbird back country area and you should find Opie and Wolfgang’s tent city encampment. Back down towards the paved road is IJ and Big Dales cabin (just across the bridge from the road and up to the left, 2nd or 3rd cabin). Before you get to the back country turnoff you will see a bed and breakfast sign on the left. Turn in there and keep left and you will find Jeff, Walt and Tom’s cabin. Wayno is in the luxurious San Ran Motel in Robbinsville. The weather was great the two days I was there, and fish were being caught (some wild, some native, some just passing through<g). — Charlie…

Response:

Opie and Wolfgang have broken camp and just arrived back in Lenoir.  We will be fishing’s Upper Creek in the morn.  Tom has left, wayno and Walt will leave in the morn, but I think IJ, Big D, and Jeff will be stayin’ thru Sat. I won’t bore anyone with a piss poor TR, as I was the only one there that didn’t catch a fish! Op

  don’t know where them boys are at exactly, but I’ve got a Tracker comin up from Georgia and goin to meet me at Popeye’s Restaraunt in Robbinsville and we’re goin to find them…. Probably won’t get there until Fri or Sat nite…….they me have all left by then….Fri Sat and Sun I’ll be at

http://www.atcampground.com/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got back from there, not sure how many are staying into the weekend. Just head up towards the Snowbird back country area and you should find Opie and Wolfgang’s tent city encampment. Back down towards the paved road is IJ and Big Dales cabin (just across the bridge from the road and up to the left, 2nd or 3rd cabin). Before you get to the back country turnoff you will see a bed and breakfast sign on the left. Turn in there and keep left and you will find Jeff, Walt and Tom’s cabin. Wayno is in the luxurious San Ran Motel in Robbinsville. The weather was great the two days I was there, and fish were being caught (some wild, some native, some just passing through<g). — Charlie…

Response:

I won’t bore anyone with a piss poor TR, as I was the only one there that didn’t catch a fish!

It’s okay Opie!  I am here for you!  It seems that another difference between us is that my mentors know how to fish and help me catch fish! Perhaps you can borrow one of mine like Willi, Brian Nelson, RW,  etc. Or even George might be able to teach you something! <bseg — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

Is that you George? Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I won’t bore anyone with a piss poor TR, as I was the only one there that didn’t catch a fish! It’s okay Opie!  I am here for you!  It seems that another difference between us is that my mentors know how to fish and help me catch fish! Perhaps you can borrow one of mine like Willi, Brian Nelson, RW,  etc. Or even George might be able to teach you something! <bseg — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

Well, looks like I’ll have some rain…..what were you fishin with? john

Response:

Well, looks like I’ll have some rain…..what were you fishin with?

Mostly yellow humpies and parachute adams were what I used, not real sure about the others. Yellow typically works well there. My fall back fly up there is an orange stimulator but I didn’t try one this trip. — Charlie…

Response:

Is that you George?

Is that you Skunked?

Response:

Well, looks like I’ll have some rain…..what were you fishin with?

        a chemist from kansas by way of hotlanta, mostly.  tent shaped body and white hackle.  :)         naw, really, stimulators in both orange and royal style met with success on the beautiful little wild rainbows over on hazel. wolfgang, jeffie, and waldo slayed em (literally) on my former secret honey hole.         wayno         and if you don’t think carolina is just as pretty as colorado, come drive the cherohala skyway in mid october.

Response:

        wayno         and if you don’t think carolina is just as pretty as colorado, come drive the cherohala skyway in mid october.

People in Colorado drive to the mountains to see the changing Aspen. The scene is nice but it is a shadow of fall’s spendor back east. I lived in West Virginia where I taught school for one school year. Fall was immensely beautiful, but the rest of my experience there left much to be desired. Willi

Response:

   a chemist from kansas by way of hotlanta, mostly.  tent shaped body and white hackle.  :)

Certainly you meant to type "chiseled" and accidently typed "tent shaped". <g — Charlie…

Response:

Trust me Opus.  What I don’t know about fly fishing is infinitely greater then what I know, and no, that wasn’t me Opus.  I’m just a Ghost of Fly Fishing Past.  My name hangs on the winds of time.  You know me, you just don’t understand the whispered words. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is that you George? Op I won’t bore anyone with a piss poor TR, as I was the only one there that didn’t catch a fish! It’s okay Opie!  I am here for you!  It seems that another difference between us is that my mentors know how to fish and help me catch fish! Perhaps you can borrow one of mine like Willi, Brian Nelson, RW,  etc. Or even George might be able to teach you something! <bseg — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

  george.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

Question:

Alaska River Adventures ( George Heim out of Kenai) is a great operation with a website http://www.alaskariveradv.com/. Katmai Fishing Adventures (Nanci Morris) runs flyfishing trips out of Bristol Bay area but fishes S. Alaska frequently. Katmai is at 907 246 8322 (sorry no web address yet except through http://www.worldangler.com/nmorakad.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Contact The Alaska Expidition Co.  1-800-572-0980 or 903-463-7112.  They have a lodge on the Tsiu river and September is a good time to go.  Lots of silvers, few bears.   Look and the latest fly-fisherman mag.    Scott Hi Gang, Been gone for a while but had nothing but great advice from this newsgroup in the past. I got the nod for an Alaska fishing adventure this Summer around the first of September.  I’d do either a float trip or lodge in the panhandle around Ketchican or Juneau…I’d like some wilderness maby float plane jet boat or raft and lots of wild salmon and trout. Less bears is better but this is Alaska…what can you do. Can anyone suggest a friendly lodge on the budget side that can give you the flyfish trip of a lifetime? Thanks, -John

Response:

Hi Gang, Been gone for a while but had nothing but great advice from this newsgroup in the past. I got the nod for an Alaska fishing adventure this Summer around the first of September.  I’d do either a float trip or lodge in the panhandle around Ketchican or Juneau…I’d like some wilderness maby float plane jet boat or raft and lots of wild salmon and trout. Less bears is better but this is Alaska…what can you do. Can anyone suggest a friendly lodge on the budget side that can give you the flyfish trip of a lifetime? Thanks, -John

Response:

You might look into Alaska Rainbow Adventures for a float trip. Web site at  http://www.akrainbow.com. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gang, Been gone for a while but had nothing but great advice from this newsgroup in the past. I got the nod for an Alaska fishing adventure this Summer around the first of September.  I’d do either a float trip or lodge in the panhandle around Ketchican or Juneau…I’d like some wilderness maby float plane jet boat or raft and lots of wild salmon and trout. Less bears is better but this is Alaska…what can you do. Can anyone suggest a friendly lodge on the budget side that can give you the flyfish trip of a lifetime? Thanks, -John

Response:

        Contact The Alaska Expidition Co.  1-800-572-0980 or 903-463-7112.  They have a lodge on the Tsiu river and September is a good time to go.  Lots of silvers, few bears.   Look and the latest fly-fisherman mag.         Scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gang, Been gone for a while but had nothing but great advice from this newsgroup in the past. I got the nod for an Alaska fishing adventure this Summer around the first of September.  I’d do either a float trip or lodge in the panhandle around Ketchican or Juneau…I’d like some wilderness maby float plane jet boat or raft and lots of wild salmon and trout. Less bears is better but this is Alaska…what can you do. Can anyone suggest a friendly lodge on the budget side that can give you the flyfish trip of a lifetime? Thanks, -John

Response:

Question:

If it inhaled it deep and you had to fight him a long time, make it dinner. 2 weeks ago, had a trout inhale the Mepps deep, and was bleeding.  Cleaned and Bar-B-Qued, he was tasty.  If is not bleeding and looks like it will survive, just cut the line as close to the hook as possible. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello.  I went fishing this past week and had a problem 2 times…the dang fish inhaled the hook. What is the best thing to do in this circumstance?  I feel it is akin to shooting and wounding a deer but not killing it.  I tried unsucesfully both times to remove the hook, and ended up cutting the line and releasing the fish. Any suggestions? Thanks. AC

Response:

FWIW, I use barbless hooks only, which makes hook removal simple. Also, you won’t lose fish if you keep you line tight during the battle. In the event that a fish has swallowed the hook deeply, I don’t even bother trying to remove it. I just snip the line as close as possible to the hook itself. The fish can survive with a hook in it. I once caught a small trout that swallowed my hook. I kept it figuring it would die if I released it. When I cleaned it, I found a treble hook stuck in it’s throat. Even with that hook in there, it was still eating. Also, I feel it’s important to not have a fish out of the water for longer than say 30 or 40 seconds. I also "handle" fish after I wet my hands with water so as no to remove the slime coat. Obviously, these are just my opinions. Good fishing to you! Bry — "My worst day at work is still better than my best day steelhead fishing"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello.  I went fishing this past week and had a problem 2 times…the dang fish inhaled the hook. What is the best thing to do in this circumstance?  I feel it is akin to shooting and wounding a deer but not killing it.  I tried unsucesfully both times to remove the hook, and ended up cutting the line and releasing the fish. Any suggestions? Thanks. AC

Response:

: Hello.  I went fishing this past week and had a problem 2 times…the dang : fish inhaled the hook. : What is the best thing to do in this circumstance?  I feel it is akin to : shooting and wounding a deer but not killing it.  I tried unsucesfully both : times to remove the hook, and ended up cutting the line and releasing the : fish. : Any suggestions? I have been catching some small catfish and panfish lately and I have been using a technique that has helped with swallowed hooks.  I started using short shanked hooks and bending the barbs down.  I use forceps to carefully go in though the gills and a little twist easily gets the hook loose.  Then the hook can be removed though the mouth with the forceps. Forceps are cheaper at "Headshops" than at tackle stores.

Response:

Most hooks are made of low grade metal and actually rust quite quickly.  Depending on how far down the hook is, often very little damage or harm ensues. Several years ago, I caught a little brookie.  When I removed my hook from the fish’s mouth, I discovered that there was another hook in the fish’s throat.  It was obviously too low for the previous angler to safely remove it, so I guess he cut his line as close as possible to the hook.  The interesting thing was that most of the shaft of the hook had actually rusted away.  There was just a small length remaining above the curve of the hook.   It obviously did not interfere with the fish’s ability to eat or survive.  It put up a fiesty fight, typical of brook trout! Ian Scott http://flyfishing.about.com/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello.  I went fishing this past week and had a problem 2 times…the dang fish inhaled the hook. What is the best thing to do in this circumstance?  I feel it is akin to shooting and wounding a deer but not killing it.  I tried unsucesfully both times to remove the hook, and ended up cutting the line and releasing the fish. Any suggestions? Thanks. AC

Response:

If the hook was bronze, the acids in the fish will disolve the hook. You did the right thing V.B.

: Hello.  I went fishing this past week and had a problem 2 times…the dang : fish inhaled the hook. : What is the best thing to do in this circumstance?  I feel it is akin to : shooting and wounding a deer but not killing it.  I tried unsucesfully both : times to remove the hook, and ended up cutting the line and releasing the : fish. : Any suggestions? : Thanks. : AC —

Response:

Hello.  I went fishing this past week and had a problem 2 times…the dang fish inhaled the hook. What is the best thing to do in this circumstance?  I feel it is akin to shooting and wounding a deer but not killing it.  I tried unsucesfully both times to remove the hook, and ended up cutting the line and releasing the fish. Any suggestions? Thanks. AC

Response:

+AD4- and ended up cutting the line and releasing the +AD4-fish. +AD4- I think you just answered the question yourself. Sometimes you have to cut your losses and pay the price. You only do dammage by trying to retreive a swallowed hook. If the hooks are swallowed but visible as a rule, you could try flattening the barb, but some would argue this to be detrimental. Others won’t. I have no opinion as I have never tried barbless fishing myself. Just a suggestion. Dan in the bush……

Response:

I used to catch wraases with hook and line that were sold live for saltwater aquariums. About 50% of the fish would swallow the hook so deep you couldn’t even see it. I just cut the line and put them in the live well. At the end of the day, usually all the hooks were laying in the bottom of the well. Capt. Jeff Kona, Hawaii http://home1.gte.net/jfrogers

+ADw-7t6ds0+ACQ-l86+ACQ-1+AEA-fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net+AD4-… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -+AD4- and ended up cutting the line and releasing the +AD4-fish. +AD4- I think you just answered the question yourself. Sometimes you have to cut your losses and pay the price. You only do dammage by trying to retreive a swallowed hook. If the hooks are swallowed but visible as a rule, you could try flattening the barb, but some would argue this to be detrimental. Others won’t. I have no opinion as I have never tried barbless fishing myself. Just a suggestion. Dan in the bush……

Response:

My suggestion is to gaff it, bring it onboard and have the deckhands fillet it. If it’s gut-hooked, and it fought, that would seem to really screw up the innards. I know when I catch an albie that swallowed the bait, blood gushes out of the mouth. Hard to believe that the fish would survive. Just keep reasonable limits, and respect the resource. It’s a sport, not a subsistance. RD Hello.  I went fishing this past week and had a problem 2 times…the dang fish inhaled the hook. What is the best thing to do in this circumstance?  I feel it is akin to shooting and wounding a deer but not killing it.  I tried unsucesfully both times to remove the hook, and ended up cutting the line and releasing the fish. Any suggestions? Thanks. AC

– Caltees – Home of Guy Harvey, Al Agnew, Habitat and Military Printed Tees http://www.caltees.com

Response:

One way that helps in releasing fish is to use a barbless hook.  As long as you keep the line tight the fish will hardly ever come off!   Tight Lines Lorne — If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there’d be a shortage of fishing poles. -Doug Larson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello.  I went fishing this past week and had a problem 2 times…the dang fish inhaled the hook. What is the best thing to do in this circumstance?  I feel it is akin to shooting and wounding a deer but not killing it.  I tried unsucesfully both times to remove the hook, and ended up cutting the line and releasing the fish. Any suggestions? Thanks. AC

Response:

Hello.  I went fishing this past week and had a problem 2 times…the dang fish inhaled the hook.

This happens to me quite often during the fishing season.  There is no way to avoid this, if you fish, you have to accept the fact that occasionally, fish WILL swallow th hook. What is the best thing to do in this circumstance?  I feel it is akin to shooting and wounding a deer but not killing it.  I tried unsucesfully both times to remove the hook, and ended up cutting the line and releasing the fish. Any suggestions?

Yes, what you did is exactly the correct thing.  You should try to quickly remove the hook, if unsuccessful, then either cut the line or in the case of large lures, use a sidecutter pliers or a small bolt cutter and cut the hook.  I have caught many apparently healthy fish with a leader or a section of line hanging out of their mouth.  Just today, while out with my editor from http://www.lake-link.com I caught a small northern pike with a section of line going down into his gullet.  There was nothing wrong with the fish and he was released again. One thing’s for certain, the survival rate for fish that are kept and filleted is zero, so release, there is always a chance that they will make it.

Response:

Question:

Hi I’m new this year to both fly fishing and fly tying.  i live in Edmonton Alberta and am trying to find people around here who are also starting out. Anyone who qualifies, please e-mail me. Ashman

Response:

Check for local Trout unlimited chapters…….good place to start networking so to speak…….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi I’m new this year to both fly fishing and fly tying.  i live in Edmonton Alberta and am trying to find people around here who are also starting out. Anyone who qualifies, please e-mail me. Ashman

Response:

Hi I’m new this year to both fly fishing and fly tying.  i live in Edmonton Alberta and am trying to find people around here who are also starting out. Anyone who qualifies, please e-mail me.

Edmonton eh?   You lucky dog; you get to listen to CKUA all the time.   I only get the Real Audio feed when I’m at my computer. Joe

Response:

Question:

Being fairly new to fly fishing (3 year only)  I wonder what to use up at Invermoriston at the end of May for salmon. Any suggestions angela

Response:

You might be better posting this on uk.rec.fishing.game as well, there should be someone with local knowledge. — Regards Peter (Remove "nospam"to email)

:Being fairly new to fly fishing (3 year only)  I wonder what to use up at :Invermoriston at the end of May for salmon. Any suggestions :angela : :

Response:

Question:

Greetings, Wow, I’ve been monitoring this newsgroup for a couple of weeks and never knew how many of my fellow flyfishers were on the net.  I’ve been a computer professional for most of my adult life, but never though much about computers and flyfishing until recently.  Well, anyway, here’s my question. 1) Are there any members of this group who are interested in FFing West Virginia?  If so, I have info, etc. 2) Are there any members who live or fish WV regularly that might like to provide info about WV FFing to fellow members of this newsgroup? 3) Is there interest in seeing a West Virginia FFing Web Page?  I have the technical skills to put it up(at my cost-this is no solicitation!), but before going to the trouble, would like to try to gauge interest. 4)  Is anyone aware of any other pages, etc. that deal with West Virginia fishing.  I have spent a lot of time on Yahoo, et al with no results. 5)  If anyone has info on guides & lodging in WV, I would also be interested in that. Thanks, Keith Comstock

Response:

2) Are there any members who live or fish WV regularly that might like to provide info about WV FFing to fellow members of this newsgroup? 3) Is there interest in seeing a West Virginia FFing Web Page?  I have the technical skills to put it up(at my cost-this is no solicitation!), but before going to the trouble, would like to try to gauge interest.

Hi Keith, I live in Montana and still would be interested in a WV Web Page. Keep us posted on your progress. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

Does anyone know the web address for the West Virginia Trout Unlimited page? Thanks in advance for any help

Response:

The address for the West Virginia Council of Trout Unlimited and our fantastically good web page (for a non-profit) is: http://members.aol.com/WVTU/wvtu.html I hope this helps. PS- I am the currrent pres of the Cherrry River Chapter.  We’ve been bad and don’t have our own page yet. Keith Comstock Cranberry Wilderness Outfitters web – http://www.wvoutfitters.com

Response:

I think you can  get the WVTU link from the TU homepage.   John W. Kramer                           Clearwater Outfitters                   WE ENDORSE CATCH AND RELEASE (717) 938-3423

Response:

Question:

I purchased  9′ #6  4- piece rod early this summer and have loved it….however  it not a sage or an orvis…but at a  better price…

Response:

Check the reel seat. I purchased 2 rods for my grandsons a few years ago, and the reelseats failed in 6 months. the metal formed ring that holds the reel broke on both rods had to tape the reels on. While they don’t cost as much as a Sage, or Orvis, if you do a lot of flyfishing buy a rod that will give you years of service not 6 months. I have been flyfishing for 50+ years and have seen them all. Buy good blanks, build your own. Use snake guides, rather than single foot, as single foot bend, and snake guides don’t. Tight lines Art

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I purchased  9′ #6  4- piece rod early this summer and have loved it….however it not a sage or an orvis…but at a  better price…

Response:

Check the reel seat. I purchased 2 rods for my grandsons a few years ago, and the reelseats failed in 6 months. …While they don’t cost as much as a Sage, or Orvis, if you do a lot of flyfishing buy a rod that will give you years of service not 6 months.

You could have returned the rods to Bean for repair or refund;Bean has a 100% guarantee on everything.  So really a Bean rod should be able to give you years of service. You might also take the time (if you can) to visit the Bean store in Freeport, and check the workmanship on their different rods.  The $400+ rods are nicer than the $100 ones.  You get what you pay for, eh?  On the other hand, *all* their rods are guaranteed, no matter the price. BTW, I agree that the best value is in building your own. Russell Gelinas

Response:

Question:

It looks like I’m going to be heading to Manchester, VT. next weekend and was wondered if anyone had any suggestions for places to try.  Is there anything hatching or should I just rely on nymphs and terrestials? The other part of the subject line refers to a book I just read.  The author is a guy named Lietz that used to produce T.V. commercials before becoming an author and moving to a small town in Vermont.  He has written two mysteries that are centered around a Flyfishing resort in Vermont.   "Dying To Flyfish" is both a good mystery and a pretty good book about flyfishing as well.  Check it out. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fishing is limited to 2 fish over 14 and less then 16 inches. Fishing is permitted only when the water temperature is less then 70 degrees. I was going to add: Fishing by special use permit only between may and august ? And would consider: Closed during November/December (Browns ?) Take some work, but it would be worth it. TimW Tim, I generally don’t pay too much attention to your rants, but It seems that you probably hit the nail on the head here.

He does make an interesting suggestion, that is, the use of special user permits.  In order to even enter many wilderness areas a "wilderness permit" must be aquired (though I’ve yet to see any enforcement of this personally).  One of the goals is to be able to track someone down if they somehow got lost or injured but in many places they also serve as a quota system.  Wouldn’t the use of a similar quota system, and enforcing it, such that a limited number of anglers are allowed on wild streams (along with enforced slot limits) result in a similar reduction of the impact on these resources? — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Battenkill sucks…*you* can fish the catch and release section if you like…if you enjoy catching the occasional 8" trout….30 years ago before the tubbers, and the canoeist…before the live bait fisherman hauled the larger breeder fish out of the river…the Battenkill was a pretty spectaculer river…back then my dad and I fished the river quite a bit…after a warm summer rain if you knew how to fish streamers, or bucktails it would not be unusual to catch a 3 or 4 pound brown or two…evennings, rising trout were plentiful…ah well…if people had the guts to do what needs to be done the fishing got come back…but no one will stand up to the "local experts" and put some serious catch limits on the river…no one will shutdown the two operations that put 50 or 60 canoes on the river every summer day…this kind of pressure, low water and warm water temps. stresses fish…it’s sad to see a "classic" stream like the ‘kill abused and deprived of it’s fish. Tough, tough multi-use call… I wonder about your assessment that the canoers really change the fish counts ? I honestly do not know the answer. Low/Warm water ? Better not have ANY C&R regs here.  Really pulling one out of the butt, I’ll take a stab at a set of regs for the Kill. Fishing is limited to 2 fish over 14 and less then 16 inches. Fishing is permitted only when the water temperature is less then 70 degrees. I was going to add: Fishing by special use permit only between may and august ? And would consider: Closed during November/December (Browns ?) Take some work, but it would be worth it. TimW

Tim, I generally don’t pay too much attention to your rants, but It seems that you probably hit the nail on the head here. Randy

Response:

John,  THE largest hatch on the Kill’ at this time of year is the Grumman hatch …sorry to say, the Mettawee is nice.  Early & late is correct for the Battenkill, Isonychias, Tricos, BW Olives….but there is one reason NOT to pass up the Kill’ ..the browns can be literally Anywhere..IN the current, OUT of the current..in some dark secluded pocket(many on the stream…) the river is loaded with pockets/undercut banks..although not readily noticeable at first.  The Battenkill in Vermont is more of a stream…and slowly becomes more of a river once in NY, so you also have somewhat of a choice of what size water you want to fish. steve d.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Battenkill sucks…*you* can fish the catch and release section if you like…if you enjoy catching the occasional 8" trout….30 years ago before the tubbers, and the canoeist…before the live bait fisherman hauled the larger breeder fish out of the river…the Battenkill was a pretty spectaculer river…back then my dad and I fished the river quite a bit…after a warm summer rain if you knew how to fish streamers, or bucktails it would not be unusual to catch a 3 or 4 pound brown or two…evennings, rising trout were plentiful…ah well…if people had the guts to do what needs to be done the fishing got come back…but no one will stand up to the "local experts" and put some serious catch limits on the river…no one will shutdown the two operations that put 50 or 60 canoes on the river every summer day…this kind of pressure, low water and warm water temps. stresses fish…it’s sad to see a "classic" stream like the ‘kill abused and deprived of it’s fish.

Tough, tough multi-use call… I wonder about your assessment that the canoers really change the fish counts ? I honestly do not know the answer. Low/Warm water ? Better not have ANY C&R regs here.  Really pulling one out of the butt, I’ll take a stab at a set of regs for the Kill. Fishing is limited to 2 fish over 14 and less then 16 inches. Fishing is permitted only when the water temperature is less then 70 degrees. I was going to add: Fishing by special use permit only between may and august ? And would consider: Closed during November/December (Browns ?) Take some work, but it would be worth it. TimW

Response:

The Battenkill sucks…*you* can fish the catch and release section if you like…if you enjoy catching the occasional 8" trout….30 years ago before the tubbers, and the canoeist…before the live bait fisherman hauled the larger breeder fish out of the river…the Battenkill was a pretty spectaculer river…back then my dad and I fished the river quite a bit…after a warm summer rain if you knew how to fish streamers, or bucktails it would not be unusual to catch a 3 or 4 pound brown or two…evennings, rising trout were plentiful…ah well…if people had the guts to do what needs to be done the fishing got come back…but no one will stand up to the "local experts" and put some serious catch limits on the river…no one will shutdown the two operations that put 50 or 60 canoes on the river every summer day…this kind of pressure, low water and warm water temps. stresses fish…it’s sad to see a "classic" stream like the ‘kill abused and deprived of it’s fish. cds

Response:

writes: It looks like I’m going to be heading to Manchester, VT. next weekend and was wondered if anyone had any suggestions for places to try.  Is there anything hatching or should I just rely on nymphs and

terrestials? John, The obvious place is the Battenkill, probably the most famous place to fish in the NE.  Check out the orvis store there, they also have a fly-fishing/cathrelease only area that probably has some good fishing. THe folks there are quite nice and helpful. Mac

Response:

John, I would avoid the Battenkill – overrated. Try the Mettawee.  White Mayflies, Caddis and caddis pupa.  Terrestrials are still a viable option.  I do not mean to get down on the Battenkill, but unless you are there very early or very late it will be a parade of canoes and float tubes. There are some good "holes" but you would need a guide.  I do not say this because I am a guide because I do not guide the Battenkill.  I say it because I have fished the Battenkill extensively in the past.  Enjoy your trip and let me know if you need more help. Cheers, James Ehlers Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service LIC#2298 Underhill, VT

Response:

It looks like I’m going to be heading to Manchester, VT. next weekend and was wondered if anyone had any suggestions for places to try.  Is there anything hatching or should I just rely on nymphs and terrestials? John, I was there last weekend 8/16, we fished the Ottaquichee up north

of Ludlow VT.  The Battenkill is best on the NY side (5 or 6 miles from MAnchester), and only before 10 am or after 7 pm when the float tubers and kyackers are not on the water.  This was the advice from the guys at Orvis – and it proved correct.  PMD’s, sulphers and tricos were the recommended and used patterns, and adams worked well too. jg

Response:

REMEMBER Eddie Murphy ! Don’t Get MURPHED ! Go Fishing !!! TimW

Response:

It looks like I’m going to be heading to Manchester, VT. next weekend and was wondered if anyone had any suggestions for places to try.  Is there anything hatching or should I just rely on nymphs and terrestials? John, I was there last weekend 8/16, we fished the Ottaquichee up north of Ludlow VT.  The Battenkill is best on the NY side (5 or 6 miles from MAnchester), and only before 10 am or after 7 pm when the float tubers and kyackers are not on the water.  This was the advice from the guys at Orvis – and it proved correct.  PMD’s, sulphers and tricos were the recommended and used patterns, and adams worked well too.

Okay, but what size?  Size *is* important in this case. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

Question:

We’re pleased and excited to announce the birth of a brand new and very different quarterly publication covering the woods and waters of the Salmon River/Eastern Lake Ontario area. As a logical extension of our popular WEB site ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’ we’ll be visiting "The Fly Zone" with Fran Verdoliva, checking out "The Tackle Box" with Jim Dence, following Peter’s wanderings in his "Thompson At Large" column, getting "A View from the Treestand" with yours truly, locating and evaluating country real estate with Christine Nixon, finding out what’s hot and what’s not with Fred David, locating cool new fishing links compliments of Jim Walker, snow sledding the Tug Hill Plateau, visiting with DEC biologists, local taxidermists, antique shops, our salmon and trout hatchery, state forests and parks, and so much more! We plan to hit the presses in late June, and be available free at local and out-of-state sport shops by July 1. Yours in the Outdoors, Bill — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

Response:

As a logical extension of our popular web site ‘http://www.salmon-river.com, we’re excited to announce the beginnings of our print publication "The Salmon River/Lake Ontario Experience." Scheduled to be in selected sport shops on July 1, SRLOE has been designed to be different. Upbeat, in-depth, accurate and professional coverage of the area’s woods and waters is what you’ll find from cover to cover. Visit Fran Verdoliva’s ‘Fly Zone’ Follow artist, guide and author Peter Thompson in ‘Thompson At Large" Master Angler Bill Ferman will show you his "Rivers and Creeks" I’ll share my "View From The Treestand" with you hunting folks Herald Journal columnist, Fred David, will tell you what’s hot and what’s not Sample some wild turkey recipes at "Laurie’s Smokehouse" Check out some cool fishing and hunting links courtesy of Jim Walker See what’s new in Jim Dense’s "Tackle Box" Visit some back country real estate with Christine Nixon Hit the trails on your snowsled or X-country skis, jig some perch through the ice, call in your first tom, check out the trout and salmon hatchery at Altmar or hear what our DEC personnel have to say. You get the picture. EVERYTHING our area has to offer-year round. If your favorite sport shop doesn’t have copies by July 1, ask them to have us send them some. Yours in the outdoors, Bill — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

Response: