Question:

Thanks very much to everyone for he responses. We’re now saturated with new information. :=) –David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Especially interested in the tricks of the route, such as ferry experience, RV campgrounds, diesel fuel availabililty, road conditions, URLs, and any quirks you can think of that the newcomer to that area should know. Rig is 33′ fiver and one-ton pickup. I’m a dejanews fan but Google has gobbled it. –David

Response:

Wallace McLean writes: Yes there is, from Blanc Sablon to St. Barbe.

Technically, you are correct; Blanc Sablon is in Quebec.  But there is only, what, 50 miles of road into Labrador.  It is very beautiful country.  My meaning was that there is no ferry from any place in Quebec you can travel to by car.  Last I knew, you can not drive to Blanc Sablon. Dave

Response:

When we took the ferry in 1984, my understanding was that the ferry ended in Blanc Sablon, only because it was therefor an inter provincial ferry, and consequently was eligible for Federal subsidies!  Of course, the fact that there were only about four miles of road before entering Labrador was conveniently overlooked, as that sort of thing usually is here in the states. Norm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wallace McLean writes: Yes there is, from Blanc Sablon to St. Barbe. Technically, you are correct; Blanc Sablon is in Quebec.  But there is only, what, 50 miles of road into Labrador.  It is very beautiful country.  My meaning was that there is no ferry from any place in Quebec you can travel to by car.  Last I knew, you can not drive to Blanc Sablon. Dave

Response:

Wallace McLean writes: Yes there is, from Blanc Sablon to St. Barbe. Technically, you are correct; Blanc Sablon is in Quebec.  But there is only, what, 50 miles of road into Labrador.  It is very beautiful country.  My meaning was that there is no ferry from any place in Quebec you can travel to by car.  Last I knew, you can not drive to Blanc Sablon.

You can, however, take another ferry to Blanc Sablon from teh Quebec highway network at Natashquan. — http://members.xoom.com/labradorian

Response:

Forgot to add: There is a ferry service twice a week from Lewisporte (NF) to Goose Bay, but it is a long trip and (I imagine) expensive.  It says "car", but nothing about RVs. If I was going to "do" New Foundland with an RV, I would do Nova Scotia first. It is much more interesting than Labrador.  Labrador does not have much from Baie Coumo to Lab City, and only Churchill Falls from Lab City to Goose Bay.  I am talking *nothing*.  But, Nova Scotia has much to do and see and would be less expensive.  Plus, ya don’t have to worry about gravel roads and lumber trucks.  <g  Go to the web site I’ve quoted or call the 1-800 number and they should be able to get a book to you before you leave.   Dave

Response:

We drove to Newfoundland (from the west coast of Canada) in the summer of 1999. We took the ferry from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia to Port Aux Basques, Newfoundland. We drove the 900 kilometres to St. John’s. Just outside St. John’s is Cape Spear which is the most easterly point in the continent. The ferry from Nova Scotia had no problem with even the largest of RVs. You’ll pay quite a bit for such a long load but considering the exchange on the US dollar, it probably won’t hurt that much. By the way, how can you pull a huge fifth wheel with a 1 ton truck? I had the idea that Newfoundland was just a big rock with fishing villages on the edge. Was I wrong! The interior of the province reminded me a lot of my own province BC. We camped at a site on a lake near Pasadena, just north of Cornerbrook, which could have been almost anywhere in BC. It was gorgeous. The people are wonderful. They are very friendly and helpful. The roads are not a problem at all. I can’t speak about the availability of diesel but there are certainly lots of trucks around so it must be relatively easy to find. Coming back we took the ferry from Argentia (about 100 kilometres southwest of St. John’s) back to Nova Scotia. This ferry runs only in the summer months (starts June 22 this year) and takes about 14 hours under normal circumstances. It saves having to backtrack the 900 kilometres to Port Aux Basques. When we went there was quite a wind so they took several hours removing chains from the vehicles on the car deck and then putting chains on our rigs. That turned the trip into almost 24 hours. Be sure to make reservations for the ferry. Check out the Marine Atlantic web site at http://www.marine-atlantic.ca We haven’t been to Labrador but I see there is a ferry service from Newfoundland to Labrador. Check out http://www.gov.nf.ca/ferryservices/ for the routes. There seems to be one that goes from St. Anthony but it looks like it doesn’t start until July 1 and it doesn’t seem to take vehicles. The other route seems to be from St. Barbe in Newfoundland and it starts May 1 and takes vehicles. The long option would be to come through Quebec of course. Have a wonderful trip. Allan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Especially interested in the tricks of the route, such as ferry experience, RV campgrounds, diesel fuel availabililty, road conditions, URLs, and any quirks you can think of that the newcomer to that area should know. Rig is 33′ fiver and one-ton pickup. I’m a dejanews fan but Google has gobbled it. –David

Response:

Hi Jay, I was wondering if your the average troll or just another attention whore, It seems to me judging from your responses to people asking legitmate questions that your more of an attention whore, So which is it? (Both maybe) Regards,  Boats

Response:

Hi Jay, I was wondering if your the average troll or just another attention whore, It seems to me judging from your responses to people asking legitmate questions that your more of an attention whore, So which is it? (Both maybe) Regards,  Boats

So – another WebTVer has all the answers!  NOT!! Tom J

Response:

In ‘84, we went across from North Sidney, NS to Port aux Basques, and on up the West coast of Newfoundland to At. Anthony.  While up in that area, we took the ferry from St. Barbe over to Blanc Sablon, QUE.  At that time the only road from there went about 50 miles up to Red Bay, and the first thirty was even paved!  We only spent one night (Pinware River) due to the huge number of black flies (in August).  At that time, there was a lot of archeological activity going on in Red Bay.  We had an F250 pickup with a tent trailer, and there was not problem at all on the ferries. Norm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Especially interested in the tricks of the route, such as ferry experience, RV campgrounds, diesel fuel availabililty, road conditions, URLs, and any quirks you can think of that the newcomer to that area should know. Rig is 33′ fiver and one-ton pickup. I’m a dejanews fan but Google has gobbled it. –David

Response:

Now Tom. If you really knew anything about us "webtvers" you would know we’re called "Webbies", but since your a newbie I guess we’ll let it slide, Good luck with yor new computer, Regards "Boats"

Response:

We went to Newfoundland in 1997 for three weeks.The island is large.It is about 500 miles across.You can see Labador when you are in the north end of the island.I would check it out but I am sure you can cross from there to Labrador by a ferry in that area.We had a great 3 weeks on the island and spent most of the time on the coast .I would say it as nice as BC coast with out the mountains. No problems finding a cg to stop for the night and the price was about 10 -25$ Most things cost more on the island but I would go again any time.The ferry cost me 450$ Canadian. This was for a return trip so that is why we stayed 3 weeks. I hope this helps some and have a good trip.. Lyle. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Especially interested in the tricks of the route, such as ferry experience, RV campgrounds, diesel fuel availabililty, road conditions, URLs, and any quirks you can think of that the newcomer to that area should know. Rig is 33′ fiver and one-ton pickup. I’m a dejanews fan but Google has gobbled it. –David

Response:

Rosemary Catherwood writes: You can see Labador when you are in the north end of the island.I would check it out but I am sure you can cross from there to Labrador by a ferry in that area.

What you see fron the northwest coast of New Foundland is indeed Labrador and Quebec.  A ferry runs from St. Barbe to Blanc Sabon, Quebec.  However, once there, you have only about 40 miles of road.  The ferry to Goose Bay, Labrador leaves Lewisporte, NF twice a week and is very expensive.  If it cost you $450 Canadian from Nova Scotia to NF, I should think the trip from Lewisporte to Labrador would be twice that – it is twice as far.  And, unlike New Fourndland, there is little to see/do in Labrador — except fish for big brook trout.  <g Dave

Response:

Now Tom. If you really knew anything about us "webtvers" you would know we’re called "Webbies", but since your a newbie I guess we’ll let it slide, Good luck with yor new computer,

Sonny boy, I have had a computer continuously since 1974.  How long have you been a WebTVer?  There are some great people using WebTV but there are a great many more horses rear ends – like you!! — Tom J http://www.geocities.com/aviontravelcade/ http://www.geocities.com/tomj_ga/ Are we having fun yet?

Response:

Hi Dave, This is a trip that we enjoyed very much from coast to coast and would go again even if it cost a lot to get there.But I said I would fly there next time from Ont Canada and rent a car and do B& B when in Newfoundland and see a lot of things we had missed the first time.You will find everyone there is very helpful. and I am sure you will have a good time. Please let us know when you return what you think of the trip after your visit to the island. PS one thing I will tell you that we did not know is that before you return to the main land they wash down your rig and you are not allowed any potatoes on the return trip.I do not know  to this day why? Have a good trip . Lyle in South Ont CA. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rosemary Catherwood writes: You can see Labador when you are in the north end of the island.I would check it out but I am sure you can cross from there to Labrador by a ferry in that area. What you see fron the northwest coast of New Foundland is indeed Labrador and Quebec.  A ferry runs from St. Barbe to Blanc Sabon, Quebec.  However, once there, you have only about 40 miles of road.  The ferry to Goose Bay, Labrador leaves Lewisporte, NF twice a week and is very expensive.  If it cost you $450 Canadian from Nova Scotia to NF, I should think the trip from Lewisporte to Labrador would be twice that – it is twice as far.  And, unlike New Fourndland, there is little to see/do in Labrador — except fish for big brook trout.  <g Dave

Response:

Rosemary Catherwood writes: Hi Dave, This is a trip that we enjoyed very much from coast to coast and would go again even if it cost a lot to get there.

(snip for brevity) Hi, Rosemary.  Actually I was answering someone else that had plans on making the trip.  I have been to NF and you are correct — it is a wonderful place to spend lots of time.  I have driven to Labrador from Quebec to Labrador City/Wabush for a float-plane flyout with my grandsons to fish for enormous brook trout.  There really is not much in Labrador, but NF is an entirely different story.  We are new to RVing, but I am planning on NF as a destination in the future.  Can’t beat the $ exchange rate either.  <g Dave Dave

Response:

Whoops, when I mentioned that it cost $450.00(Canadian) for the ferry trip between North Sydney,Nova Scotia, and Port au Basques,Newfoundland, I neglected to say that was the price of 2 passengers,in a 26 ft. motorhome,and that we sailed from Argentia,Newfoundland on the return trip.(twice the distance on the return trip) Lyle Catherwood – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Especially interested in the tricks of the route, such as ferry experience, RV campgrounds, diesel fuel availabililty, road conditions, URLs, and any quirks you can think of that the newcomer to that area should know. Rig is 33′ fiver and one-ton pickup. I’m a dejanews fan but Google has gobbled it. –David

Response:

In ‘84, we went across from North Sidney, NS to Port aux Basques, and on up the West coast of Newfoundland to At. Anthony.  While up in that area, we took the ferry from St. Barbe over to Blanc Sablon, QUE.  At that time the only road from there went about 50 miles up to Red Bay, and the first thirty was even paved!  We only spent one night (Pinware

It is paved all the way east to Red Bay, and all the way west to St. Paul’s River. From St. Paul’s River west is a gravel road under reconstruction to Old Fort Bay; NE of Red Bay the gravel highway continues to Mary’s Harbour (from where you can go to Battle Harbour National Historic District by boat), and will be extended as far as Cartwright within two years. River) due to the huge number of black flies (in August).  At that time, there was a lot of archeological activity going on in Red Bay.  We had an F250 pickup with a tent trailer, and there was not problem at all on the ferries.

– http://members.xoom.com/labradorian

Response:

We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Especially interested in the tricks of the route, such as ferry experience, RV campgrounds, diesel fuel availabililty, road conditions, URLs, and any quirks you can think of that the newcomer to that area should know. Rig is 33′ fiver and one-ton pickup. I’m a dejanews fan but Google has gobbled it. –David

Response:

Well, personally, I’ve had good luck with Labradors, indeed any retriever makes a fine pet.  They’re loyal, smart (for a dog), and good companions.  Newfoundlands I haven’t had any experience with, sorry. HTH Jay — * Jay Denebeim  Moderator       rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *

Response:

Dave Ellis writes: We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area.

Uh, you are talking two different places.  Labrador is on the main land (north and east of Quebec), while New Foundland is an island off of the Lab coast. Labrador has one road leading in and out, and that is Rt380 from Baie Comeau to Lab City.  I would NOT recommend this route with an RV.  It is mostly gravel and the lumber trucks are very treacherous.   For info on New Foundland, e-mail addes: and phone number 1-800-563-NFLD You may find this helpful also: http://public.gov.nf.ca/tourism They will send you a nice book about the province.  Good luck. HTH.  d;0 Dave

Response:

I have friends who drove the road in Labrador with an RV. The entered from Quebec then took the Ferry over to Newfoundland Isle’s. They went with friends who had a fifth wheel. They had no problems with the gravel road. I’ve talked to their tourist bureau and they indicate that TT’s/RV’s should not have a problem. Al

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave Ellis writes: We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Uh, you are talking two different places.  Labrador is on the main land (north and east of Quebec), while New Foundland is an island off of the Lab coast. Labrador has one road leading in and out, and that is Rt380 from Baie Comeau to Lab City.  I would NOT recommend this route with an RV.  It is mostly gravel and the lumber trucks are very treacherous. For info on New Foundland, e-mail addes: and phone number 1-800-563-NFLD You may find this helpful also: http://public.gov.nf.ca/tourism They will send you a nice book about the province.  Good luck. HTH.  d;0 Dave

Response:

Al Rolle writes: I have friends who drove the road in Labrador with an RV. The entered from Quebec then took the Ferry over to Newfoundland Isle’s. They went with friends who had a fifth wheel. They had no problems with the gravel road. I’ve talked to their tourist bureau and they indicate that TT’s/RV’s should not have a problem. Al

There is only one road that leads into Labrador and that is Rt. 389 from Baie Comeau, Quebec.  Most of the road is gravel and you will constantly be traveling with or against lumber trucks that throw up big stones when they are in front of you or when they pass you.  I have driven it three times — I go fly fishing in Labrador every July.  Rt. 389 ends in Lab City/Wabush.  If you want to go farther, you use the trans-labrador highway (#500) which ends at Goose Bay/Happy Valley.  ALL of Rt 500 is gravel, and although picturesque, it is a rough drive.  Taking a ferry (actually it is  called the iceberg cruise) from Goose Bay to New Foundland (the island) would be very expensive.  There is no ferry from Quebec to New Foundland; all the ferries run from Nova Scotia. The reason there is no ferry service to/from Quebec is that there are no roads much past Sept Isles which is way the hell away from New Foundland. From the Tourist Bureau’s book: "Marine Atlantic’s modern car ferries also accommodate RVs all year round from North Syndney, Nova Scotia to Port Aux Basques in south western New Foundland. Throughout the summer, a second ferry sails from North Sydney to Argentia, bringing you to within an hour or two of St. Johns." Dave

Response:

want to go farther, you use the trans-labrador highway (#500) which ends at Goose Bay/Happy Valley.  ALL of Rt 500 is gravel, and although picturesque, it is a rough drive.  Taking a ferry (actually it is  called the iceberg cruise) from Goose Bay to New Foundland (the island) would be very expensive.  There is no ferry from Quebec to New Foundland; all the ferries run from Nova Scotia.

Yes there is, from Blanc Sablon to St. Barbe. The reason there is no ferry service to/from Quebec is that there are no roads much past Sept Isles which is way the hell away from New Foundland.

The road goes about 300km east of Sept-Iles to Natashquan, paved the whole way. From Natashquan there is a passenger/freighter to isolated ports as far as Blanc Sablon, on which you can ship certain sized vehicles (inc. campervans) as freight. — http://members.xoom.com/labradorian

Response:

Forgot to add: There is a ferry service twice a week from Lewisporte (NF) to Goose Bay, but it is a long trip and (I imagine) expensive.  It says "car", but nothing about RVs.

Yes, you can. All types of vehicles travel on this ferry. If I was going to "do" New Foundland with an RV, I would do Nova Scotia first.

Newfoundland is one word. It is much more interesting than Labrador.  Labrador does not have much from Baie Coumo to Lab City, and only Churchill Falls from Lab City to Goose Bay.  I am talking *nothing*.  But, Nova Scotia has much to do and see and would be

Depends on your definition of "nothing". There is plenty of great hiking, canoeing, etc. less expensive.  Plus, ya don’t have to worry about gravel roads and lumber trucks.  <g  Go to the web site I’ve quoted or call the 1-800 number and they should be able to get a book to you before you leave.   Dave

– http://members.xoom.com/labradorian

Response:

Rosemary Catherwood writes: You can see Labador when you are in the north end of the island.I would check it out but I am sure you can cross from there to Labrador by a ferry in that area. What you see fron the northwest coast of New Foundland is indeed Labrador and Quebec.  A ferry runs from St. Barbe to Blanc Sabon, Quebec.  However, once there, you have only about 40 miles of road.  The ferry to Goose Bay, Labrador

Actually, you have 80km west to Old Fort Bay on the Lower North Shore; 70km paved east to Red Bay, and another 80 or 90 gravel to Mary’s Harbour beyond that. leaves Lewisporte, NF twice a week and is very expensive.  If it cost you $450 Canadian from Nova Scotia to NF, I should think the trip from Lewisporte to Labrador would be twice that – it is twice as far.  And, unlike New Fourndland,

Here are the most recent fares for the Sir Robert Bond, which connects Lewisport Nfld with Cartwright and Goose Bay, Labrador:  http://www.gov.nf.ca/ferryservices/schedules/E-bond.htm there is little to see/do in Labrador — except fish for big brook trout.  <g

Depends on your definition of "little". If you have done "little" research, and have "little" energy, imagination, or interests, you will find little to do in Labrador. You’ll find the same thing in New York or Paris. — http://members.xoom.com/labradorian

Response:

Question:

I wouldn’t think of hassling Dave!  He’s quite the fine gentleman.  I was just interested in his thoughts on the subject.  I didn’t get into the URL, but from the gist of the statement posted I gathered that out-of-staters were less than welcome under the bill. Could pose serious difficulties for ‘clavers, if all states pursue such a practice.  Like Ken said, kind of hard to discuss a subject–intelligently– with so little info.  Not that I could do so with all the facts. — Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The man’s angry, Mark. It’s all right. He has a right to his feelings. He’s usually a reasonable fellow. He’ll calm down. Let him be. Maybe it’s my glasses. Some people just get pissed of about my glasses… Just curious Dave, but what outraged you about this post.  Seriously. — Opie  –Planning for the Past–

Response:

damn. you were one of the ’some’. Lennie writes: Warmest regards to some of you, To "some" of us?  How about bitin’ me, Lennie. Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

O.K., then BLOW ME. Wolfgang

Response:

To "some" of us?  How about bitin’ me, Lennie. O.K., then BLOW ME.

Man am I embarrassed!! To think that I’ve forgotten the obvious history behind these responses. I feel so stupid! Or, perhaps it was before my time. Hmmm… Anyone wanna fill me in or am I going to have to do a Deja search to find the source of this latent hostility? –Steve

Response:

To "some" of us?  How about bitin’ me, Lennie. O.K., then BLOW ME. Man am I embarrassed!! To think that I’ve forgotten the obvious history behind these responses. I feel so stupid! Or, perhaps it was before my time. Hmmm… Anyone wanna fill me in or am I going to have to do a Deja search to find the source of this latent hostility?

I don’t think there’s any latent hostility. Lennie had a bit of a troll going on in his closing remark, Dave gave him a short but sweet swat for his troubles, and Wolfgang – well, that’s just Wolfgang doing his part to keep the rest of the group from sleeping… /daytripper (ie: same shite/different day

Response:

Some people are unable to distinguish between an event happening NEAR them and happening TO them. If they saw the movie "Back to School" they probably got pissed off when Rodney Dangerfield told his secretary to hold *some* of his calls. I didn’t wake up yesterday with an agenda to piss anybody off and if I had known that what I was going to write would have that effect I wouldn’t have done it. But some folks see perceive everything as a slight. They act like a few words on a computer display is the equivalent of trying to set their fucking house on fire. I find the prevailing mindset of this group to be so contentious and adversarial that it’s not worth my time. Wolfgang and Dave, LIGHTEN UP, for Pete’s sake.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To "some" of us?  How about bitin’ me, Lennie. O.K., then BLOW ME. Man am I embarrassed!! To think that I’ve forgotten the obvious history behind these responses. I feel so stupid! Or, perhaps it was before my time. Hmmm… Anyone wanna fill me in or am I going to have to do a Deja search to find the source of this latent hostility? I don’t think there’s any latent hostility. Lennie had a bit of a troll going on in his closing remark, Dave gave him a short but sweet swat for his troubles, and Wolfgang – well, that’s just Wolfgang doing his part to keep the rest of the group from sleeping… /daytripper (ie: same shite/different day

Response:

Wolfgang and Dave, LIGHTEN UP, for Pete’s sake.

Who the hell is this Pete guy? What makes him think he’s better than anyone else? <g — Charlie…

Response:

than anyone else? <g — Charlie…

I don’t know why anyone is getting their panties iin a tightwad. Telling someone to blow me is the way I have talked since I was about six years old. I think this kind of talk is why South Park is so popular; the kids talk the same way we all have for all of our lives. There ain’t no reason to lighten up. We are just having a good time. Don’t take all this shit so serious, just enjoy it. Big Dale

Response:

Don’t take all this shit so serious, just enjoy it.

Me? Serious? <g — Charlie…

Response:

— Charlie…

Not you Charlie weknow you better than that. I meant the jerk that had his panties in a tightwad. Big Dale

Response:

Some people are unable to distinguish between an event happening NEAR them and happening TO them. If they saw the movie "Back to School" they probably got pissed off when Rodney Dangerfield told his secretary to hold *some* of his calls. I didn’t wake up yesterday with an agenda to piss anybody off and if I had known that what I was going to write would have that effect I wouldn’t have done it. But some folks see perceive everything as a slight. They act like a few words on a computer display is the equivalent of trying to set their fucking house on fire.

Look, asshole – are you threatening to burn my house down?  Sheesh, some people….  And just why are calling some school secretary and telling her to hold my calls?  And don’t pull any of that coy, "Oh, I didn’t mean you" bullshit.  I may be paranoid, but I can read between the lines (well, I can when I have on my thick glasses and can see my monitor)….. I find the prevailing mindset of this group to be so contentious and adversarial that it’s not worth my time.

Well, yeah, there’s that, of course.  This contentiously adversarial attitude is slyly hidden from those who read ROFF before posting, therefore insuring a fresh supply of concerned citizens for Wolfgang and Dave to eat for lunch…. Wolfgang and Dave, LIGHTEN UP, for Pete’s sake.

It’s the rich diet and winter inactivity – typing, apparently, ain’t exercise… R

Response:

Big Guy writes: Not you Charlie weknow you better than that. I meant the jerk that had his panties in a tightwad.

I didn’t know Peter wore panties!   Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

Not you Charlie weknow you better than that. I meant the jerk that had his panties in a tightwad.

Oh, you mean LaPlac… <G — Charlie…

Response:

Uh Dave, can you move me out of *that* cabin? Frank (no crossdresser here) Church

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Big Guy writes: Not you Charlie weknow you better than that. I meant the jerk that had his panties in a tightwad. I didn’t know Peter wore panties! Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

Some people are unable to distinguish between an event happening NEAR them and happening TO them. If they saw the movie "Back to School" they probably got pissed off when Rodney Dangerfield told his secretary to hold *some* of his calls.

Actually, I liked the hot tub scene better: RD:"So, what’s your major?" Girl: "Literature" RD: "Great.   Maybe you can help me straighten out my Longfellow." Joe F.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some people are unable to distinguish between an event happening NEAR them and happening TO them. If they saw the movie "Back to School" they probably got pissed off when Rodney Dangerfield told his secretary to hold *some* of his calls. I didn’t wake up yesterday with an agenda to piss anybody off and if I had known that what I was going to write would have that effect I wouldn’t have done it. But some folks see perceive everything as a slight. They act like a few words on a computer display is the equivalent of trying to set their fucking house on fire. I find the prevailing mindset of this group to be so contentious and adversarial that it’s not worth my time. Wolfgang and Dave, LIGHTEN UP, for Pete’s sake.

Some people are unable to distinguish between an event happening NEAR them and happening TO them. If they saw the movie "Back to School" they probably got pissed off when Rodney Dangerfield told his secretary to hold *some* of his calls. I didn’t wake up yesterday with an agenda to piss anybody off but if I had known that what I was going to write would have that effect I probably would have done it anyway. But some folks perceive everything as a slight. They act like a few words on a computer display is the equivalent of trying to set their fucking house on fire.  Life is a two way street Lennie.  Lighten up, for your own sake. Wolfgang back at ya

Response:

Big Guy writes: Not you Charlie weknow you better than that. I meant the jerk that had his panties in a tightwad. I didn’t know Peter wore panties!   Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Don’t worry sweetiekins, I’m not bringing any of the ones with knots in them. Peter (who is really touched by all of the concern over his feelings.)

Response:

I wouldn’t want to side with the flyshops and the outfitters on this one without being much more informed on the issues.

I asked my Dad, who is the outdoors columnist for the Montana Standard in Butte, MT, about this, and this is part of his response: <begin quote The FOAM people have also been among the most difficult people to deal with every time someone tries to put a lid on outfitting.  They’ll be invited to work on committees, and they’ll be disruptive on the committee, and after the committees try to come up with something all can agree on, they’ll renege on the deal.  Their total goal is growth of the outfitting industry and to hell with the ordinary guy from Butte–or anywhere else. My recommendation is to send Judy Martz an email to do the opposite of what Robin Cunningham says. <end quote

Response:

The man’s angry, Mark. It’s all right. He has a right to his feelings. He’s usually a reasonable fellow. He’ll calm down. Let him be. Maybe it’s my glasses. Some people just get pissed of about my glasses… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just curious Dave, but what outraged you about this post.  Seriously. — Opie  –Planning for the Past–

Response:

Sorry about that URL. I tried the damned thing again and they’ve put some password protection on it. Hm. Interesting what you said about Robin Cunningham and his constituency. Makes good sense.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … If you would like to help defeat this bill … Robin Cunningham represents the interests of the Fishing Outfitters Association of Montana, FOAM. The interests of the fishing outfitters do not necessarily coincide with the interests of the fishery or even with the interests of out-of-state fishermen. I discussed this issue at length with Robin this past summer and I can see where he’s coming from in representing his constituency but the URL http://laws.leg.state.mt.us:8000/laws01_pref/plsql/law0203w$.startup doesn’t work for me so I can’t see what form this most contentious legislation has finally taken. I wouldn’t want to side with the flyshops and the outfitters on this one without being much more informed on the issues. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

… If you would like to help defeat this bill …

Robin Cunningham represents the interests of the Fishing Outfitters Association of Montana, FOAM. The interests of the fishing outfitters do not necessarily coincide with the interests of the fishery or even with the interests of out-of-state fishermen. I discussed this issue at length with Robin this past summer and I can see where he’s coming from in representing his constituency but the URL http://laws.leg.state.mt.us:8000/laws01_pref/plsql/law0203w$.startup doesn’t work for me so I can’t see what form this most contentious legislation has finally taken. I wouldn’t want to side with the flyshops and the outfitters on this one without being much more informed on the issues. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Sorry. Did I write "some"? I meant "several".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lennie writes: Warmest regards to some of you, To "some" of us?  How about bitin’ me, Lennie. Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

Lennie writes: Warmest regards to some of you,

To "some" of us?  How about bitin’ me, Lennie. Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

Just curious Dave, but what outraged you about this post.  Seriously. — Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lennie writes: Warmest regards to some of you, To "some" of us?  How about bitin’ me, Lennie. Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

damn. you were one of the ’some’.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lennie writes: Warmest regards to some of you, To "some" of us?  How about bitin’ me, Lennie. Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

This was forwarded to me by the owner of a fly shop in Missoula: If you would like to help defeat this bill there is a phone number below you can call and leave a message. To email Governor Martz, go to http://www.discoveringmontana.com:88/gov/mailform3.htm. Warmest regards to some of you, LR below is a msg I received from the fishing outfitters association of Montana regarding a move to limit non-resident fishing license — make no mistake – the fish and game commision of Montana doesn’t give a damn about what is best for the resource; they are only concerned that someone from Butte can go to the river without seeing someone not from Montana, and they have no business deciding this huge economic question for the state…. what can you do? read the memo below – if you are from Montana, please contact the proper legislators and let them know that if MT is ever to move from an extractive economy this is no way to go about it, and let the new governor, Judy Martz, know the same (at the same #)– if you live out of state please let the Governor know the amount of $ you pour into the local economy every year and also mention the amount of donations you’ve made toward conservation efforts in MT, because of folks just like you the fishing here is as good as it is!! Thank you for your time John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - —–Original Message—– To: FOAM outfitter : ; <FOAM outfitter : ; Folks: On Tuesday, Jan. 16, in room 152 of the Capitol building in Helena, Rep. Dan Fuchs (R), Billings, will introduce his HB 228 intended to authorize the FWP Commission to make rules to control the number of nonresident anglers who may fish on a river subject to an FWP management plan.  The nonresidents may be required to purchase one of a limited number of annual "trophy water permits" via a drawing.  The commission will be authorized to determine the number of permits, the cost, and must "document" the need for limits on angling use on "designated waters" during "some part of a license year."  You can get a copy of the bill at: http://laws.leg.state.mt.us:8000/laws01_pref/plsql/law0203w$.startup Communities around the state that depend on nonresident angler dollars are upset about this idea.  And, for outfitters, a drawing would spell slow death to our regular customers.  Please contact your legislator on TUESDAY (Monday’s a state and fed. holiday) by calling 406-444-4800 and leaving a message.  Key legislators are those on the House Fish & Game Committee: Dan Fuchs (Billings) Joe Balyeat (Bozeman) George Golie (Great Falls) Keith Bales (Otter) Debby Barrett (Dillon) Paul Clark (Trout Creek) Ron Devlin (Terry) Tom Facey (Missoula) Steve Gallus (Butte) Gail Gutsche (Missoula) Larry Jent (Bozeman) Jeff Laszloffy (Laurel) Diane Rice (Harrison) Nancy Rice Fritz (Missoula) Rick Ripley (Wolf Creek) Allen Rome (Garrison) Jim Shockley (Victor) Don Steinbesser (Sidney) Bill Thomas (Hobson) Brett Tramelli (Great Falls) Let these people hear from you!  Start leaving messages after 7:30 a.m. at 406-444-4800.  Just tell the operator which legislator you want the message to go to and keep it brief. Thanks. Robin

Response:

Question:

Trip Reports Soon: It has taken a lot just to get back on the saddle again business wise. Our trip was amazing in so many ways and we have a few pictures to post on our web site soon.  Just digitizing them into the computer takes effort as most know.  It will be a few more days before we are able to post them.  I will keep everyone posted as this is fly fishing at its’ finest. — Mr.Gink "the saga continues"   http://www.gink.com/

Response:

I will keep everyone posted as this is fly fishing at its’ finest.

Actually, that was over at the ROFF clave, sorry you missed it.  But a notch down from the ROFF clave could still have been pretty good. Regards, Jeff

Response:

Trip Reports Soon: Our trip was amazing in so many ways and we have a few pictures to post on our web site soon.

Looking forward to it, I’ve always wanted to see a picture of someone casting a fly while their head was up their ass.

Response:

Is the Gink Conclave anything like the Winston Cup or the Nokia Sugar Bowl? <snip "Goddamn, well I declare! Their walls are built from  cannonballs;  their motto is ‘don’t tread on me’" -Uncle Jerry

Response:

Is the Gink Conclave anything like the Winston Cup or the Nokia Sugar Bowl?

I think it’s something that happens on occasion in public restrooms<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Question:

<SNIP IT’S OVER.  LET IT DIE. This Rupe thing is ripping up apart.  There are ROFFians on both side of the fence and each group will never totally agree with each other.  That’s okay. We can either continue bickering back and forth with nothing ever being resolved or we can just decide to be silent on the issue.  I choose silence. There are so many other things to talk about.

<SNIP Vern, you were a little over-zealous in your support of this action, and I did warn you that it might get ugly, and to be perhaps a little more circumspect. I am not censuring you in any way, you did what you believed was right, and in a good cause.  You stood up for something you believed in, and you have every right to be proud of it.  Do not let anybody else try to persuade you otherwise.  ROFF is made up of a lot of people, the vast majority are perfectly well aware that what was done was the correct thing to do, irrespective of any hair-splitting debates which may occur as an aftermath. I assume the fact that some of your letters are being touted as "hate-mail" etc is unsettling you. Don’t worry about it, there is nothing in those letters which could upset anybody at all with any sense. Simply the request to the sponsors to withdraw their support. You should see my mail !  I did not realise there were so many dangerous nutcases supporting the killing of Indians, I even got mail from some people claiming to be Indians, saying they supported old Rupe.  They really must be nuts. It will take more than something of this nature to "rip ROFF apart".  Try to calm down a bit.  Go fishing ! Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

I look at it a little different.  Yes, I was one of the more loud voices. However, I don’t believe anyone wanted FAOL to disappear.  I know I didn’t. Additionally, they don’t have to.  No one’s asking for that.  FAOL is a good web-site that has a lot of good information on it.  We only wanted the last article from Rupe removed.  That’s all.  It was a moral issue.  We took action regarding a possible resolution.  The longer FAOL resisted the more public anger grew.  That’s just normal. Now that the life of FAOL is in question, it’s like dancing on a dying friend.  I don’t see any glory or pride in this.  Furthermore, it’s not necessary.  With the new information about the possible demise of FAOL, the continued debate that has no resolution becomes meaningless.  If a resolution was possible, that would be different because the debate would have purpose.  There is no resolution and there will never be a resolution to the continued treads.  I then ask, why do the threads continuing?  What does everyone want from continuing the debate? Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I totally agree.  I’ve even thought about leaving ROFF for a week or two until all the Rupe threads die out. IT’S OVER.  LET IT DIE. This Rupe thing is ripping up apart.  There are ROFFians on both side of the fence and each group will never totally agree with each other.  That’s okay. We can either continue bickering back and forth with nothing ever being resolved or we can just decide to be silent on the issue.  I choose silence. There are so many other things to talk about. There’s nothing you, I, or anyone can do at this point.  What FAOL chooses to do from here on out is up to themselves.  Everything up to this point is history.  I exhort you, let’s just continue with the ffing.  Please. I must say I’m a little bit disappointed in you on this one Vern.  In the first place, the Rupe thing is hardly ripping us apart.  There have been many threads on ROFF which generated a lot more fireworks than this one.  In fact, I’ve found the debate on this one to be remarkably civilized.  This is nothing compared to what goes on in the ubiquitous C&R vs C&K threads.  Hell, even a debate about the definition of ‘meniscus’ can get uglier than this. Secondly, if I’m not mistaken, yours was one of the first and loudest voices calling for action against FAOL.  Mind you, I don’t disapprove of your action; I quite agree that something needed to be done and heartily commend you for taking a lead in informing the sponsors of what was happening.  But it seems to me at this late date that for you to call an end to the whole process, when you were so instrumental in initiating it is a bit disingenuous, especially in light of the fact that Mike has been taking the vast majority of the heat. Again, I don’t have a problem with the action you took, but I am surprised at how little any of the critics had to say to you directly about it.  Now it looks as though you’re trying to duck out while everyone is still focused on Mike’s role and you have escaped unscathed. In short, you were instrumental in stirring up this hornets’ nest, it doesn’t look good for you to be too critical of those who pay attention to the hornets.

Response:

Hi Guys, I have read with interest many of the posts regarding Ole Rupe.  I also read his article.  I have also participated in many free speech arguments in my day.  Some included very competitive national moot court competitions during law school.  I felt it was unnecessary for me to add another $.02 worth of opinions since arguments on the many faceted side of this issue have already been made and made and…..  I just did not want to continue to perpetuate this NON FLY FISHING discussion.  I have seen, heard and made many of these arguments in the past.  (So, I started this non fly fishing discussion with a dab of fishing included) <g. Just FYI, at the present time of approximately 10:35 AM in California, there were 114 and counting posts in the To Whom it may Concern thread and 41 and counting on the FAOL Closure thread.  Whew, what passion! I have read many with interest, and it has been an education for me to see how many articulate and passionate individuals are out there in the fishing world.  I applaud you all for your stands on all sides of the issue. Continue to enjoy those threads, but I have a different motivation regarding the time I spend in ROFF notwithstanding my Mea Culpa re email postage stamps.  Oops, there goes my credibility! To give you a flavor of what we are usually discussing, the fly fishing out here in California is wonderful!  In the Central Valley, we are having a very late autumn.  The leaves on the trees are turning to their fall time brilliant yellows, reds and fire oranges.  I am fishing in light Orvis breathable waders and a light shirt under my fly vest.  The Kings River is producing with reluctance, but it does not matter one iota to me.  Being there is enough for me.  For the first time in my short fly fishing ‘career’ I have tied and caught fish on a size 24 Trico Spinners.  Who would have thunk it?  I still can’t believe my eyes when a 16" fish is caught on such a small bug! Nymphing has been my passion of late though.  I broke off 2 good fish using 6X tippet with a Prince Nymph due to my lack of skill in working fish.  I learned fishing in the early ’90’s going for bass.  I can’t seem to lighten up.  I sometimes still have want to SET THE HOOK.  Hopefully, time and practice will correct this fault. The best part is that I did not consider Old Rupe while I was there on the Kings River. Pete

Response:

I totally agree.  I’ve even thought about leaving ROFF for a week or two until all the Rupe threads die out. IT’S OVER.  LET IT DIE. This Rupe thing is ripping up apart.  There are ROFFians on both side of the fence and each group will never totally agree with each other.  That’s okay. We can either continue bickering back and forth with nothing ever being resolved or we can just decide to be silent on the issue.  I choose silence. There are so many other things to talk about. There’s nothing you, I, or anyone can do at this point.  What FAOL chooses to do from here on out is up to themselves.  Everything up to this point is history.  I exhort you, let’s just continue with the ffing.  Please. Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Guys, I have read with interest many of the posts regarding Ole Rupe.  I also read his article.  I have also participated in many free speech arguments in my day.  Some included very competitive national moot court competitions during law school.  I felt it was unnecessary for me to add another $.02 worth of opinions since arguments on the many faceted side of this issue have already been made and made and…..  I just did not want to continue to perpetuate this NON FLY FISHING discussion.  I have seen, heard and made many of these arguments in the past.  (So, I started this non fly fishing discussion with a dab of fishing included) <g. Just FYI, at the present time of approximately 10:35 AM in California, there were 114 and counting posts in the To Whom it may Concern thread and 41 and counting on the FAOL Closure thread.  Whew, what passion! I have read many with interest, and it has been an education for me to see how many articulate and passionate individuals are out there in the fishing world.  I applaud you all for your stands on all sides of the issue. Continue to enjoy those threads, but I have a different motivation regarding the time I spend in ROFF notwithstanding my Mea Culpa re email postage stamps.  Oops, there goes my credibility! To give you a flavor of what we are usually discussing, the fly fishing out here in California is wonderful!  In the Central Valley, we are having a very late autumn.  The leaves on the trees are turning to their fall time brilliant yellows, reds and fire oranges.  I am fishing in light Orvis breathable waders and a light shirt under my fly vest.  The Kings River is producing with reluctance, but it does not matter one iota to me.  Being there is enough for me.  For the first time in my short fly fishing ‘career’ I have tied and caught fish on a size 24 Trico Spinners.  Who would have thunk it?  I still can’t believe my eyes when a 16" fish is caught on such a small bug! Nymphing has been my passion of late though.  I broke off 2 good fish using 6X tippet with a Prince Nymph due to my lack of skill in working fish.  I learned fishing in the early ’90’s going for bass.  I can’t seem to lighten up.  I sometimes still have want to SET THE HOOK.  Hopefully, time and practice will correct this fault. The best part is that I did not consider Old Rupe while I was there on the Kings River. Pete

Response:

Take it easy, Vern. We’ve had similar blow-ups here before, but eventually everyone chills out… About a week ago – at least a couple of days before Mike’s first post wrt RAOL, I responded to someone (I think it was Jon Cook) that the extended period of Peace On ROFF "was just the calm before the next storm". I had no idea I’d be THAT correct! /daytripper (ROFF is cyclical ;^) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I totally agree.  I’ve even thought about leaving ROFF for a week or two until all the Rupe threads die out. IT’S OVER.  LET IT DIE. This Rupe thing is ripping up apart.  There are ROFFians on both side of the fence and each group will never totally agree with each other.  That’s okay. We can either continue bickering back and forth with nothing ever being resolved or we can just decide to be silent on the issue.  I choose silence. There are so many other things to talk about. There’s nothing you, I, or anyone can do at this point.  What FAOL chooses to do from here on out is up to themselves.  Everything up to this point is history.  I exhort you, let’s just continue with the ffing.  Please.

Response:

I totally agree.  I’ve even thought about leaving ROFF for a week or two until all the Rupe threads die out. IT’S OVER.  LET IT DIE. This Rupe thing is ripping up apart.  There are ROFFians on both side of the fence and each group will never totally agree with each other.  That’s okay. We can either continue bickering back and forth with nothing ever being resolved or we can just decide to be silent on the issue.  I choose silence. There are so many other things to talk about. There’s nothing you, I, or anyone can do at this point.  What FAOL chooses to do from here on out is up to themselves.  Everything up to this point is history.  I exhort you, let’s just continue with the ffing.  Please.

I must say I’m a little bit disappointed in you on this one Vern.  In the first place, the Rupe thing is hardly ripping us apart.  There have been many threads on ROFF which generated a lot more fireworks than this one.  In fact, I’ve found the debate on this one to be remarkably civilized.  This is nothing compared to what goes on in the ubiquitous C&R vs C&K threads.  Hell, even a debate about the definition of ‘meniscus’ can get uglier than this. Secondly, if I’m not mistaken, yours was one of the first and loudest voices calling for action against FAOL.  Mind you, I don’t disapprove of your action; I quite agree that something needed to be done and heartily commend you for taking a lead in informing the sponsors of what was happening.  But it seems to me at this late date that for you to call an end to the whole process, when you were so instrumental in initiating it is a bit disingenuous, especially in light of the fact that Mike has been taking the vast majority of the heat.  Again, I don’t have a problem with the action you took, but I am surprised at how little any of the critics had to say to you directly about it.  Now it looks as though you’re trying to duck out while everyone is still focused on Mike’s role and you have escaped unscathed. In short, you were instrumental in stirring up this hornets’ nest, it doesn’t look good for you to be too critical of those who pay attention to the hornets.

Response:

snip<

No sweat, Vern.   This is just one of those discussions that helps bring another dimension to the faceless names here.   Nobody really gets too pissed off, and we get to learn a little bit about each other.   It’s not really a bad thing; it’s what we seem to be.   And after it’s over, we’re still friends (mostly <g).   Nobody would put any of this ahead of a day on the water.   Aside from a waste of bandwidth, it’s harmless, and sometimes fun. Joe F.

Response:

In short, you were instrumental in stirring up this hornets’ nest, it doesn’t

look good for you to be too critical of those who pay attention to the hornets.< As I said initially, I was out of town, missed the start.   Hmmm, Vern, eh?   Should I start all over again?  <g

Response:

Ah, yes, fishing!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIP IT’S OVER.  LET IT DIE. This Rupe thing is ripping up apart.  There are ROFFians on both side of the fence and each group will never totally agree with each other.  That’s okay. We can either continue bickering back and forth with nothing ever being resolved or we can just decide to be silent on the issue.  I choose silence. There are so many other things to talk about. <SNIP Vern, you were a little over-zealous in your support of this action, and I did warn you that it might get ugly, and to be perhaps a little more circumspect. I am not censuring you in any way, you did what you believed was right, and in a good cause.  You stood up for something you believed in, and you have every right to be proud of it.  Do not let anybody else try to persuade you otherwise.  ROFF is made up of a lot of people, the vast majority are perfectly well aware that what was done was the correct thing to do, irrespective of any hair-splitting debates which may occur as an aftermath. I assume the fact that some of your letters are being touted as "hate-mail" etc is unsettling you. Don’t worry about it, there is nothing in those letters which could upset anybody at all with any sense. Simply the request to the sponsors to withdraw their support. You should see my mail !  I did not realise there were so many dangerous nutcases supporting the killing of Indians, I even got mail from some people claiming to be Indians, saying they supported old Rupe.  They really must be nuts. It will take more than something of this nature to "rip ROFF apart".  Try to calm down a bit.  Go fishing ! Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

You’re my man, Ken. I got your back.

Ditto.  In spades.

Response:

To Debate is interesting and often educational, to Argue, name call and belittle is not…

Is so.   Ignorant Twerp.      

Response:

Wolfgang the bully, writes:

<<Is so.   Ignorant Twerp.       Boy, I’m glad you did tell ol Jim to BMAIAL.  I have that one.  Even use it in my address for anti-spam.  Don’t know what I would do without it.  <g Dave L.

Response:

David, This is so off the mark that I really got a good laugh out of your post.  One thing I have never been accused of is to be a closet anything, or to hide behind anyone.  My wife would really get a kick out of this (BG).  We have a good friend living on Bainbridge Island, and my impression of the place is that a lot of spoiled aging yuppies lived there.  I’m afraid that you have reinforced that image in my mind. Ken, I expected more from someone with an edu address.  "Frogboy"??  (LOL).  I guess it fits that the edu address goes with living in a very sheltered environment. You want to use the word fuckin and you have to use ***’s??  As far as hard-earned flyfishing dollars, you should try to make your living in the real world (G). Kermit – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken Oh they take it seriously. They’re the closet racist’s who provide a respectable chorus line to guys like Rupe, and love to hide behind well meaning folks who honestly wonder where the free speech line is, or who are honest political conservatives. The dead giveaway is that they have no bottom line. Ive run into them before here in the NW,  home of the Aryan Nations. They know that murderous remarks like Rupe’s are important because they intimidate minorities from participation in many activities and forums. Its very effective and a lot less risky that acting out their bullshit at work, bombing a church or killing someone on a dark road. They are gutless. They are wacko’s. But they are not stupid. Dave I am bothered by the article, but I would not have taken it seriously anyway.  But I am much more bothered by the pc mob mentality that I witnessed here.  I don’t feel that there is anything to be very proud off here. Blow it out yer ass, frogboy. Just because you’re too f***in’ stupid to take seriously the most vile and vicious racial epithet that can be hurled at Native Americans is no reason to demean the many good people of ROFF that are QUITE proud that this little piece of racist garbage is no longer sponsored by good companies competing for our hard earned flyfishing dollars. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Now I just have to figure out how to suspend a reference line over my head next time out on the pond or a lake… Michael Era

Question:

I made a three day trip of the Halloween weekend and went up to Northern California to fish Hat Creek and the Sacramento River.  I got away at 4:30 am Friday and was on Hat Creek at the Power House Riffle by 10.  I actually had it to myself for the first half hour or so.  There were a few BWO’s hatching, but not much surface action.  I fished very small soft hackles, 18’s and 20’s and took a few small fish.  Then all was quiet until late afternoon.  Several people came and fished the riffles, setting up homestead sites in prime locations, swinging their weighted, indicatored nymphs hour after hour.  The motion reminded me of nothing so much as one of those oilfield grasshopper pumps. I didn’t see them catch much, and I don’t have the patience to stand in one spot that long, so I didn’t indulge. Then about 4:30 the fish turned it on.  There had been sporadic BWO’s all day long, but the fish finally got interested.  I fished "under the hatch" swinging a small green bodied soft hackle in the water just below the riffle.  At one stage I was getting at least a bump on every cast.  I brought a number of good fish to hand, and several other strong pullers got loose.  I didn’t break any of them off.  I have taken a hint from Sylvester Nemes’ books on soft hackles and use quite strong tippets with even the smallest flies–4x with #20’s.  The notoriously picky fish of Hat Creek don’t seem to be leader shy to flies presented this way.  The only concession I made to size was to tie the fly on inside a surgeon’s loop for a bit freer action. The action continued until it got too dark to fish.  I had arranged to stay at a place I had just recently heard of–Pit River Lodge.  It’s only a couple of miles east of where Hat Creek crosses state route 299.  It was originally the work camp for the construction of the Pit River #1 Power House in the 20’s.  It became an executive retreat for Pacific Gas and Electric until they sold it a couple of years ago.  It’s a fine piece of craftsman gothic wooden architecture.  They have a restaurant on the premises but no liquour license yet–you’re welcome to byo.  A bottle of Bowmore’s Islay single malt in my luggage was a comfort.  The folks that run it are still learning the business and parts of it could be improved, but it’s nice and quiet, no TV’s, and the rates are quite reasonable.  Check it out if you are fishing the area.  There’s a web site http://www.pitriverlodge.com The next day, Saturday, on Hat Creek was pretty much a repeat of the first. Sunday I drove route 89 over to the upper Sacramento near the town of Mt. Shasta.  It was a beautiful hour drive over there with fall color being about as good as it gets for California. Take note though, the red stuff is mostly poison oak.  The weather was clear and the 14000 foot volcano of Mt.   Shasta had a dusting of snow.  I got on the river near the Cantara loop, site of the notorious herbicide spill in 1991.  October caddis were quite in evidence, but in three hours fishing I got only one fish.  But this was tourist fishing intended as a timekiller befor the main event which was to get on the lower Sacramento near Redding in the afternoon. I had been there three weeks ago for the first time and fished there all day.  Nothing but nothing happened until late afternoon that time so I didn’t see much point in being there in the morning.  Even then except for a couple of bumps I got skunked.  Those who caught fish got them on caddis pupa imitations which I didn’t have.  Going to the pattern books, I didn’t find anything that quite appealed to me, but I got some inspiration for a soft hackle.  It was pretty simple–orange thread, a body of tannish brown ostrich herl twisted into a chenille with a dubbing loop, gold crystal flash rib and partridge hackle.  The herl chenille has the appearance but not the effect of bulk. I got on the lower Sac at Cascade Park in Redding about 2:30.  It was very quiet until about 4.  The Redding Fly Shop suggested BWO and caddis imitations.  I went with my little green soft hackle that worked so well on Hat Creek.  I hooked up with an small but suprisingly strong fish on that fly.  By this time there were getting to be a lot noisy rises around me, but I stuck with that fly.  A bit later I got into a good fish, about a 15 inch rainbow.  This started the Pfleuger music–a couple of good runs and some minutes of bulldogging to bring him to hand.  He was actually snagged in the lower jaw, but soundly enough to be brought in.  By this time the snapping rises were going on all around me and the air was full of caddises fluttering about.  I decided it was now or never to try my new fly.  The first cast and swing got a real hard hit but no hookup.  It was hard enough that I retrieved to see that I still had a fly, even with the stout tippet I favor.  It was ok.   I cast again–nothing.  Third cast…a couple of mends…the fly is about to turn the corner and swing across…bang!  Rrrrrrrrrr–that beautiful sound, and that was all the testing that fly got.  By the time I got that fish in, revived and released, it was too dark to fish.  I got multiple runs with that lovely music including the last one when I got her in the net the first time and she jumped out.  She taped 24" of prime lower Sac Rainbow, biggest fish I’ve caught yet.  I plan more testing of this fly… Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

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Good trip Mike,    The last time I was at Hat Creek during the day and things were quiet, I took a nice Rainbow just below the bridge to the power house by casting a Western Coachman across the stream and swimming it slowly back along the edge of the rocks. Ernie Harrison Have you tried a Blood Knot Machine?  http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2 I made a three day trip of the Halloween weekend and went up to Northern California to fish Hat Creek and the Sacramento River.  I got away at 4:30 am Friday and was on Hat Creek at the Power House Riffle by 10.  I actually

<snip Mike

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Question:

Dumb question: Does anyone know where I can find stainless steel flagpole mounts in 3/4" dia.?  I can only find stainless in 1" and above. Bill

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Bill Smith" asks: Does anyone know where I can find stainless steel flagpole mounts in 3/4" dia.?  I can only find stainless in 1" and above.

Get a 1" long section of clear hose, slice it, place it on the rail or whatever and mount the 1" stainless flagpole atop it. -Bruce

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Dumb question: Does anyone know where I can find stainless steel flagpole mounts in 3/4" dia.?  I can only find stainless in 1" and above.

That’s gonna be a special order item. It’ll be cheaper to buy a larger flag pole. And while we’re on the subject of flags: The biggest mistake most people make is under-flagging their boats. The correct size flag is 1" of fly (length of the stripes) to 1′ of boat length. Since flags only come in 18" x 30", 24" x 36" etc…if your boat length falls ANYwhere in the middle, go UP to the next larger size, not down to the smaller one. IOW, the correct flag size for my 32′ boat is 24" x 36", not 18 x 30. Peggie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dumb question: Does anyone know where I can find stainless steel flagpole mounts in 3/4" dia.?  I can only find stainless in 1" and above. That’s gonna be a special order item. It’ll be cheaper to buy a larger flag pole. And while we’re on the subject of flags: The biggest mistake most people make is under-flagging their boats. The correct size flag is 1" of fly (length of the stripes) to 1′ of boat length. Since flags only come in 18" x 30", 24" x 36" etc…if your boat length falls ANYwhere in the middle, go UP to the next larger size, not down to the smaller one. IOW, the correct flag size for my 32′ boat is 24" x 36", not 18 x 30. Peggie Bill

Hmmmm. Maybe I need a stars and stripes fishing kite… — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - I’d love to, but I’m teaching my parrot to yodel.

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Hi, A different way to get those strippers! Eh! — Regards and God Speed, Gary Gary W. Sandvik 309-676-0224 (fax)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dumb question: Does anyone know where I can find stainless steel flagpole mounts in 3/4" dia.?  I can only find stainless in 1" and above. That’s gonna be a special order item. It’ll be cheaper to buy a larger flag pole. And while we’re on the subject of flags: The biggest mistake most people make is under-flagging their boats. The correct size flag is 1" of fly (length of the stripes) to 1′ of boat length. Since flags only come in 18" x 30", 24" x 36" etc…if your boat length falls ANYwhere in the middle, go UP to the next larger size, not down to the smaller one. IOW, the correct flag size for my 32′ boat is 24" x 36", not 18 x 30. Peggie Bill Hmmmm. Maybe I need a stars and stripes fishing kite… — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - I’d love to, but I’m teaching my parrot to yodel.

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Stripers! Eh! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, A different way to get those strippers! Eh! — Regards and God Speed, Gary Gary W. Sandvik 309-676-0224 (fax) Dumb question: Does anyone know where I can find stainless steel flagpole mounts in 3/4" dia.?  I can only find stainless in 1" and above. That’s gonna be a special order item. It’ll be cheaper to buy a larger flag pole. And while we’re on the subject of flags: The biggest mistake most people make is under-flagging their boats. The correct size flag is 1" of fly (length of the stripes) to 1′ of boat length. Since flags only come in 18" x 30", 24" x 36" etc…if your boat length falls ANYwhere in the middle, go UP to the next larger size, not down to the smaller one. IOW, the correct flag size for my 32′ boat is 24" x 36", not 18 x 30. Peggie Bill Hmmmm. Maybe I need a stars and stripes fishing kite… — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - I’d love to, but I’m teaching my parrot to yodel.

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Hi, A different way to get those strippers! Eh! — Regards and God Speed, Gary

Strippers are easy to get; stripers are more difficult.

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Question:

Cal  Harvey, has been making & selling custom fly rods since 1940. He uses Sage blanks & Struble reel seats.Cal doesn’t have internet access,  for more info contact him at 806-385-4298 ,Littlefield,Tx  I’ve put up a web page for Cal at http://members.tripod.com/~BradBanner/flyrod.html  It has many fishing links.

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He makes a darn nice rod from what I hear. How’s it goin Brad? Jerry http://www.jerryhadden.com

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Going great except for this blasted respiratory crud everyone around here,including me, has. Good to hear from you Jerry. Brad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He makes a darn nice rod from what I hear. How’s it goin Brad? Jerry http://www.jerryhadden.com

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Question:

Do you really think that selling fly reels is the "public welfare"?< Well, it’s in MY welfare and last time I checked, I was a member of the great unwashed public.

THIS IS NOT MY POST!!!!!   I DID NOT POST THIS Check for your self.  I might be a lot of things-  but I would NEVER post under anyone else’s name.  Look Ken F.  I’m laughing like a dawg at a lot of this,  but YOU were cool to me when a few others dogged my ass…   Don’t you let this fool you. I can play games w/ the best of’em-  but the bastards better play fair-  ’cause  I sure as hell know how to fight dirty-   You see for your self.   I am nothing if not loyal to my own ethic.  You may not understand that ethic-  BUT  look around and see…   I made one hell of a mark fer a new scum bag.   Do I EVER not sign my posts? The primary concern of the individual should be that of becoming ‘diluted’, more specifically- Delusion. That shit is NOT RIGHT!!!!] The real BRUCE post Outta be 200 lbs of low grade CHUM!!!!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – THAT wasn’t the question Bellows.  The question was, why aren’t the shop carrying all our other products because the are so good. Now THAT, is a good question. Finally, this isn’t a question of me/us/ making money to pay many people their rightful wages and livelihood.  It is a question of "SERVICE" being provided at the retail level.  We make more money for Distributors and Retailers then what we profit by at the lower food-chain level of capitalism.  I hope you remember that in your regard Mr. Bellows.  I’m not the injured party here.  It is the retail shop owner and the American Fly Fisherman that are the injured party because the Retailer isn’t looking out for your interests and finally, not his own.

george, get over yourself.  there are plenty of other products that compete with your products that are just as good, if not better.  while it’s all well and good that you are proud of your products, and i would expect nothing less from a business owner, you must realize that other people’s products are damn good… and that if a fly shop decides to carry them instead of your products, they are doing what they feel is best for THEIR customers.  i frequent a shop that doesn’t sell many of your products… do i feel short shafted?  HELL NO.  if i thought i’d gain by using your flyfuzz (or whatever the hell it is) vs. the naturals and synthetics i allready use… i’d let the owner know and have him order me some.  i’m not losing out on diddly, no matter how much you think so.  same with your dubbing wax.  if i thought i absolutely had to have it, i would.  george, it’s friggin wax for christ’s sake.  i can’t imagine my tying would be so much better with a different kind of wax, no matter what gerke propoganda you choose to use. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you for your comments.  If you haven’t tried a NEW tube of FLY-MAKER’S WAX then you may not know what you are missing as a fly tier, for instance, nor any of our other products. George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s Outdoor Fly Fishing Products. Visit: http://www.gink.com MAY I SUGGEST THAT THOSE WHO cannot get our products at their local fly shop MAY ORDER FACTORY DIRECT at the same retail level (and sometimes less).  WE want to get any or all of our products into everyone’s hands, no matter what it takes. Please visit the capitalistic pig’s WEB SITE ABOVE.  or here : http://www.gink.com/ Read about what we can do for you.  If you want to truly protect your fly lines for instance, TRY our PZ fly line dressing and cleaner.  It is the best in the world.

when you call everything you make "the best in the world" my bullshit alarm starts screaming. EVERYTHING is guaranteed.  I defy everyone not to like anything we make.  

well, i’m not a huge fan of gink.  it’s allright, but not divine.  i enjoy trying out lots of different products… some work well, some don’t.   We happen to have the world’s best Guarantee also.  It seems to never end – this quality of products we make.  We are in a very Special Field of this Industry.

blah, blah, blah, propoganda, blah, blah, blah….lol chris

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THAT wasn’t the question Bellows.  The question was, why aren’t the shop carrying all our other products because the are so good. Now THAT, is a good question. Finally, this isn’t a question of me/us/ making money to pay many people their rightful wages and livelihood.  It is a question of "SERVICE" being provided at the retail level.  We make more money for Distributors and Retailers then what we profit by at the lower food-chain level of capitalism.  I hope you remember that in your regard Mr. Bellows.  I’m not the injured party here.  It is the retail shop owner and the American Fly Fisherman that are the injured party because the Retailer isn’t looking out for your interests and finally, not his own. Thank you for your comments.  If you haven’t tried a NEW tube of FLY-MAKER’S WAX then you may not know what you are missing as a fly tier, for instance, nor any of our other products. George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s Outdoor Fly Fishing Products. Visit: http://www.gink.com MAY I SUGGEST THAT THOSE WHO cannot get our products at their local fly shop MAY ORDER FACTORY DIRECT at the same retail level (and sometimes less).  WE want to get any or all of our products into everyone’s hands, no matter what it takes. Please visit the capitalistic pig’s WEB SITE ABOVE.  or here : http://www.gink.com/ Read about what we can do for you.  If you want to truly protect your fly lines for instance, TRY our PZ fly line dressing and cleaner.  It is the best in the world. EVERYTHING is guaranteed.  I defy everyone not to like anything we make.  We happen to have the world’s best Guarantee also.  It seems to never end – this quality of products we make.  We are in a very Special Field of this Industry. Very Special. gg

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Otherwise  L.R.  I don’t know what else to do.  Every fly shop that carries all our products grosses several thousand dollars a year or more.

george, you’re the only one making lots of money of gink, xink, and your wonderful wax… how many bottles of gink must a shop sell to make thousands of dollars<G?

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_______ Everyone needs to have a heart to heat with their local pro shop.  Each Pro Shop that orders some of our other products they don’t carry, gets free samples of everything we carry that they can sell at full retail which is around thirty – $50 dollars worth of pure profit. Take this into your local retail outfitter and show them this offer.  If anyone has any other idea, I’m for it.  I’ll donate a whole box full of products for your favorite fly fishing club or person in need.  Each person that gets a fly shop to order two or more new products they haven’t tried with us yet, gets a complete set of FISH-FUZZ.  This is around $66 worth of free, deadly, streamer, wet fly, tying material in dazzling colors. Otherwise  L.R.  I don’t know what else to do.  Every fly shop that carries all our products grosses several thousand dollars a year or more. We move a lot of product that takes care of the majority of most fly fisherman’s needs world wide, but we could do a lot better Mr. Trout. You are certainly correct about this. Thanks for your support.  It is an excellent fly tying wax at that. Sincerely, george gehrke Used your fly tying wax for the first time this evening tying up some Golden Ribbed Hare’s Ears.  Best wax I’ve ever used.  How come so many places only carry Gink and not your other stuff? L. Baird

–

Question:

Anyone out there have experience fishing for muskie on this Vilas County lake?  Traveling there next week.  Any info would be helpful. Thanks.

Response:

(Sorry guys, not using my fly rod on this trip, though maybe I should bring it anyway?  Meant to post inquiry to general fishing ne ws group.)  TH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out there have experience fishing for muskie on this Vilas County lake?  Traveling there next week.  Any info would be helpful. Thanks.

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Not fish with a fly rod ?!? Must not be a family relation. Wayne Hart To fish is human…to release devine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Sorry guys, not using my fly rod on this trip, though maybe I should bring it anyway?  Meant to post inquiry to general fishing ne ws group.)  TH Anyone out there have experience fishing for muskie on this Vilas County lake?  Traveling there next week.  Any info would be helpful. Thanks.

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Question:

Will be in Colorado Springs area the 2nd week of May. Some of the literature on the subject seems to suggest that the run-off will be in full swing at that time, and that it will be much more severe than I had assumed it to be. Is this gonna be a "wash-out"?

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Will be in Colorado Springs area the 2nd week of May. Some of the literature on the subject seems to suggest that the run-off will be in full swing at that time, and that it will be much more severe than I had assumed it to be. Is this gonna be a "wash-out"?

If the runoff is high…GO FISHING ! 1) Put some rocks in your pockets (to keep from being swept away). 2) Put on a big ugly bug with eyeballs and rubber legs. 3) Keep the BB sized shot close at hand. Use a lot. 4) Fish the banks. 5) Rid yourself of the mental block that all flyfishing is done in    clear waters. 6) Enjoy the river in its swollen glory.   7) Avoid tailwaters as the crowds and attitudes eventually will ruin it for you. TW

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If the runoff is high…GO FISHING ! 1) Put some rocks in your pockets (to keep from being swept away). 2) Put on a big ugly bug with eyeballs and rubber legs. 3) Keep the BB sized shot close at hand. Use a lot. 4) Fish the banks. 5) Rid yourself of the mental block that all flyfishing is done in   clear waters. 6) Enjoy the river in its swollen glory.   7) Avoid tailwaters as the crowds and attitudes eventually will ruin it for you. TW

Excellant advise T-bone!!  I like someone who can find a reason to fish no matter what.  As my grandfather used to say: "… which would you rather do… or go fishing?" Jack Wheeler

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o  What are the major rivers/other opportunities

You’ll be nearest the upper Colorado River in the Kremmling/Hot Springs area. o  How far are they from Winter Park

Roughly 30 or 45 minutes. o  What are the likely conditions

Runoff varies from year to year.  If the rest of the Winter’s mild, late June should be OK.  Check river conditions at: http://www.infosphere.com/rof/yp/RFAnglers/rfa.htm That’s Glenwood Springs, but it should give you some idea (there are other river flow sources on the Web). o  Who’s the leading outfitter/guide service

Sorry, I’m not familiar with outfitters in that area. o  What’s worth traveling to for an overnight

Again, check out the website above… M

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