Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would rate line control as the most difficult, especially when nymphing. When the fish are rising, you don’t have to be able to read water. There are other satellite skills worth mentioning: fly tying rodbuilding photography writing story telling teaching tree/plant/bird/animal identification map reading bullshitting/evasiveness sleuthing/gleaning info from other fishermen Any others?

ROFF survival skills are in need if one is not internet impaired. Flyfish

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to achieve proficiency ? A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes: Casting Line control Reading water Wading without doing a "Reid" Fly selection Convincing SWMBO to let you go fishing in the first place Of all these "skills" I believe reading water is the most difficult to become proficient at. And casting, I would rate casting as the easiest. Give me 20 minutes and I can teach someone to cast well enough to fish.

I agree that the reading of the water (& fish within) is the most challenging (and rewarding) aspect of fly angling, though I won’t necessarily concur that it is the most "difficult".  Reading the water is more or less an experience related thing, and you have to have experienced the occasion to be able to learn from it.  However, that being said, some people are more observant than others,  and will learn something about a specific thing from a singular exposure to the observation of whatever that thing might be.  The slower learners might have to observe the phenomena many times before fully understanding it.  Perhaps "difficult" should encompass the degree of pure ability of  eyesight  that is required to master the reading of the water & fish, as that is the key limiting factor of the human body & its application to flyfishing?  Keen sight and observation and a willingness to learn are the key elements in reading a water  (for me that water is a troutstream). Regards, Michael.

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Patience was a worthy addition, which would go hand in hand with memory – remembering past lessons learned and forgotten. …after that I would go into fly selection which is greatly tied to entomology and presentation..perhaps a dash of line control. ….but then I don’t know squat, I just like to fish…john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to achieve proficiency ? A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes: Casting Line control Reading water Wading without doing a "Reid" Fly selection Convincing SWMBO to let you go fishing in the first place Of all these "skills" I believe reading water is the most difficult to become proficient at. And casting, I would rate casting as the easiest. Give me 20 minutes and I can teach someone to cast well enough to fish. — Ken Fortenberry

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Patience. Steve

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I would add . . . Accepting that the fish are doing what the fish are doing, and not what I would want them to be doing, AND then. . . using appropriate rig and technique accordingly. …

Exactly correct. If the fish are not taking dry flies I accept that and use the appropriate rig, a can of cold Budweiser and a spliff. The "technique" is called "listening to the river sing sweet songs". I am not, as our esteemed correspondent from Sweden would suggest, totally clueless about nymphing. I will confess to having done it, as recently as on the Muskegon and on the San Juan, to provide ROFFian references. But anymore, fishing is more important than catching fish, and I’ll stick to dries if it’s OK with ya’ll. — Ken Fortenberry

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A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to achieve proficiency ? A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes: Casting Line control Reading water Wading without doing a "Reid" Fly selection Convincing SWMBO to let you go fishing in the first place

Line control, aka presentation. George Adams "All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of youth that doth not grow stale with age."                                                           —- J.W Muller

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Casting

    Nope, you can teach a monkey how to cast a fly line. Line control

    That’s the winner. I can’t believe how many avid ff’ers just don’t get it. I fish with lots of guys who’ve mastered all the other skills mentioned, but they just don’t seem to comprehend "dead drift". Reading water

    Important, but most guys seem to learn how to read the water years before they can make a proper presentation. Wading without doing a "Reid"

    Anybody with normal bipedal skills should be able to wade well enough to catch fish, but on a heavily fished river, a better wader has more opportunities. Fly selection

   A close second. Willi is often called the "troutmaster" and I believe this is why. The guy always has the right pattern; sometimes I’ll wade over to see what he’s using and I’m usually amazed, when I’m wading back to my spot I say to myself "Why didn’t I think of that?"     Not as important as line control, however. Unless it’s a "moving pattern" (streamers, skittering caddis, et al) the fish won’t bite it if it’s dragging. Convincing SWMBO to let you go fishing in the first place

    Got rid of beta version. Current wiff says I don’t fish enough.

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A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to achieve proficiency ?

As a newbie to fly fishing who has recently completed his first full season, the skill that most eludes me is line control, particularly where multiple and conflicting currents are involved.  While it isn’t pretty, I can cast well enough—as Ken writes—to catch fish.  I am able to read water well enough to locate the most obvious lies, and fly selection is an area in which I am improving.  Line control, though?  Good God!  I was badly humbled on the Owens River a couple of weeks ago while casting little caddis dries to rising fish.  Enough said. While I can practice some of the other "skills" away from the water, I need to have my line laying across the current in a real river to really be able to understand everything that comes into play with controlling the line. As an aside that might be more appropriate for ROFFT, the next skill I want to start learning is tying my own flies.  I’m leaning towards an inexpensive vise and tool kit (Thompson A plus tools), picking up materials as I go.  If somebody wants to enlighten me as far as other options go, I’m more than willing to listen.  Many thanks. Cheers, Bill

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A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes:

knowing when to check the hook point on yer yella humpy <g jeff and wolf should be pullin’ in any time now, on the road to snowbird… yabbba, dabbbba, dewwwwwwww . –waldo

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A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to achieve proficiency ? A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes: Casting Line control Reading water Wading without doing a "Reid" Fly selection

    i have a funny feeling that the responses will be conditioned to a large extent by the kind of water one usually fishes.  for example, my first choice is "line control", both in and out of the water.  that selection is driven because, as you well know, one must be able to cast in very confined conditions above the water, and mend like a magician *on* the water, to catch good fish in the mountains of north carolina.  tangentially, one’s wading abilities (including agility, strength, and stamina) are very, very important on streams such as snowbird, hazel, and the nanty.  the two talents bisect at some point, since the ability to acquire a position from which a particular run or pocket can be accessed more easily than a point at which one merely steps off the bank may reduce the need for difficult mending chores.     finally, the least important for me is fly selection.  where i come from, if you read water (which has always, strangely, come easy for me) well, and can achieve a drag free float, it usually doesn’t make a damn bit of difference what is on the end of the tippet. yfitons wayno

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Charlie Wilson writes:

<snip I totally agree.  I can’t cast worth a damn, but I can present a fly well in most situations.  I recently learned another way to "swing" a fly, and I wouldn’t have caught anything if I didn’t learn the technique. Missed you at HF.  Hope all is ok. Dave

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to achieve proficiency ? A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes: Casting Line control Reading water Wading without doing a "Reid" Fly selection Convincing SWMBO to let you go fishing in the first place Of all these "skills" I believe reading water is the most difficult to become proficient at. And casting, I would rate casting as the easiest. Give me 20 minutes and I can teach someone to cast well enough to fish. — Ken Fortenberry

Im my case, I think casting is the most difficult. I find that line control becomes easy when I am casting accurately and well.

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I would add . . . Accepting that the fish are doing what the fish are doing, and not what I would want them to be doing, AND then. . . using appropriate rig and technique accordingly. Its existential. And common, I suspect, to folks addicted to surface strikes. Dave

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<snip As an aside that might be more appropriate for ROFFT, the next skill I want to start learning is tying my own flies.  I’m leaning towards an inexpensive vise and tool kit (Thompson A plus tools), picking up materials as I go. If somebody wants to enlighten me as far as other options go, I’m more than willing to listen.  Many thanks. Cheers, Bill

You’re on the right track… The key is picking the flies you want to tie, and buying that material. Even more important is to actually learn some basic techniques: starting the thread, whip or half hitch finish, basic dubbing, and proportions.  You can get that from books, but it’s better to actually watch somebody.  Your local flyshop, TU or FFF chapter probably runs formal or informal classes during the winter.  Now is the time to check!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to achieve proficiency ? A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes: Casting Line control Reading water Wading without doing a "Reid" Fly selection Convincing SWMBO to let you go fishing in the first place Of all these "skills" I believe reading water is the most difficult to become proficient at. And casting, I would rate casting as the easiest. Give me 20 minutes and I can teach someone to cast well enough to fish.

For myself, I’d vote line control.  I regularly fish "big" water that requires casting beyond the main channel into pockets.  In these scenarios the fly often is presented on near still water, while the line is drifting in rapid water.  I find it difficult to mend 20′ of line in a current without pulling the fly out of the still water.

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 Have to agree with you.  I will hopefully fish till the day I get to old cast a fly and still not be able to know what is under the surface.  Tried reading books and it just doesn’t seem to be retained.  I think that it is probably only learned over time, or at the side of an experienced teacher.  The rest of the list is relatively easy to learn, especially the ‘Reid’ reference, turns out I only fell twice (this year) but did it with style.  :)        jim An hour on the river adds a day to your life. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to achieve proficiency ? A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes: Casting Line control Reading water Wading without doing a "Reid" Fly selection Convincing SWMBO to let you go fishing in the first place Of all these "skills" I believe reading water is the most difficult to become proficient at. And casting, I would rate casting as the easiest. Give me 20 minutes and I can teach someone to cast well enough to fish. — Ken Fortenberry

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Reading water Wading without doing a "Reid" Of all these "skills" I believe reading water is the most difficult to become proficient at. And casting, I would rate casting as the easiest. Give me 20 minutes and I can teach someone to cast well enough to fish. — Ken Fortenberry

I’ve been Reiding the water for years.  It is indeed a difficult skill to master unless you are born to it (What?!  You think you just fall into like a lottery winner?). Seriously, I do agree that reading the water is up there, but it is second to fly selection.  Yeh, when the rain is holding the slate drakes on the surface and you could cast a chunk of charcoal out there and get a 26" fish, its easy.  When the sun is high, no wind, no hatch, but you see the fish rolling deep and trying to figure them out is definately a knack. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

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Of all these "skills" I believe reading water is the most difficult to become proficient at. And casting, I would rate casting as the easiest. Give me 20 minutes and I can teach someone to cast well enough to fish.

Well enough to catch _some_ fish, anyway.  There will always be other fish in difficult locations, and you could spend a lifetime refining your casting skills to the point where you can make the perfect presentation to every fish in the stream. Likewise, tying on a Wooly Worm and just letting it drift in the current will almost always catch _some_ fish, but a more refined approach will usually get more fish.  Again, you could spend a lifetime trying to improve your skills. This, I think, really goes to the heart of what makes fishing interesting.  Almost anybody can succeed at it to some degree, but you can always improve.  If you could ever really _master_ it, it wouldn’t be any fun anymore.  The game of Tic-Tac-Toe is amusing for children, but after a while they realize that there is only a small number of possible strategies, and then the game isn’t any fun to play anymore.  Chess has finitely many possible strategies as well, but it the number is so large and the game so complex that probably no human will ever completely master the game. Kevin

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to achieve proficiency ? A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes: Casting Line control Reading water Wading without doing a "Reid" Fly selection Convincing SWMBO to let you go fishing in the first place Of all these "skills" I believe reading water is the most difficult to become proficient at. And casting, I would rate casting as the easiest. Give me 20 minutes and I can teach someone to cast well enough to fish. — Ken Fortenberry

"Reading the water"-skill is something that comes with spending a lot of time fishing and as such should be ranked high. Apart from that I would add correct presentation of different flies. Seeing that you may be a master dry fly fisherman and know absolutely nothing about nymphing, I would say that learning to present a fly correctly in any streamside situation takes a lot of different knowledge and experience. — Tight lines! / Roger Daytime engineer Lifetime flyfisherman If you feel like it, visit http://home.bip.net/angler/ for info on flyfishing in Sweden

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to achieve proficiency ? A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes: Casting Line control Reading water Wading without doing a "Reid" Fly selection Convincing SWMBO to let you go fishing in the first place Of all these "skills" I believe reading water is the most difficult to become proficient at. And casting, I would rate casting as the easiest. Give me 20 minutes and I can teach someone to cast well enough to fish.

Agreed, although I certainly would rank myself as "proficient". I’d rank "Line control" as number two. — TL, Tim

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A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to achieve proficiency ? A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes: Casting Line control Reading water Wading without doing a "Reid" Fly selection Convincing SWMBO to let you go fishing in the first place Of all these "skills" I believe reading water is the most difficult to become proficient at. And casting, I would rate casting as the easiest. Give me 20 minutes and I can teach someone to cast well enough to fish. — Ken Fortenberry

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I would rate line control as the most difficult, especially when nymphing. When the fish are rising, you don’t have to be able to read water. There are other satellite skills worth mentioning: fly tying rodbuilding photography writing story telling teaching tree/plant/bird/animal identification map reading bullshitting/evasiveness sleuthing/gleaning info from other fishermen Any others?

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  A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the   skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to   achieve proficiency ?     A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes:     Casting   Line control   Reading water   Wading without doing a "Reid"   Fly selection   Convincing SWMBO to let you go fishing in the first place     Of all these "skills" I believe reading water is the most difficult   to become proficient at. And casting, I would rate casting as the   easiest. Give me 20 minutes and I can teach someone to cast well   enough to fish.   I think what we define as proficient in casting is very different. I think that casting is an integral part of presentation which IMO is the most difficult and complex of any of the skills. Willi

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I vote for setting the hook / striking (not listed). My success rate would skyrocket if I hooked 1/2 the fish that "take" or rise. Seems I’m either too slow or too fast most of the time. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to achieve proficiency ? A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes: Casting Line control Reading water Wading without doing a "Reid" Fly selection Convincing SWMBO to let you go fishing in the first place Of all these "skills" I believe reading water is the most difficult to become proficient at. And casting, I would rate casting as the easiest. Give me 20 minutes and I can teach someone to cast well enough to fish. — Ken Fortenberry

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A discussion in another thread got me to thinking. Which of the skills involved in angling with a fly requires the most effort to achieve proficiency ? A (incomplete, feel free to add your own) list of skills includes: Casting Line control Reading water Wading without doing a "Reid" Fly selection Convincing SWMBO to let you go fishing in the first place Of all these "skills" I believe reading water is the most difficult to become proficient at. And casting, I would rate casting as the easiest. Give me 20 minutes and I can teach someone to cast well enough to fish.

Well, the two with the ";-)" aren’t really FFing skills per se (probably indicated by the ";-)" ) and wading isn’t a universal requirement of FFing, even taking it as a "skill" of FFing – however, if one wades, do so safely is important.  I’d agree that "reading water" (or "fishing in the right place at the right time," or whatever one wishes to call it) is the most difficult because it is the only one over which the angler has only limited control in the time one fishes, and no control over the "water" itself (well, other than on private water, and even then, the control is not complete).  With casting, the angler has the control, and "casting well enough to fish," if defined as getting a fly in the general area one wishes, isn’t that difficult, esp. with shorter casts. I would add to the list three more skills, with first being perhaps the most important skill: learning how to fight and release a fish, even if you rarely release.  It, like casting, is very easy to learn, yet is probably the most-neglected skill for most anglers.  If angling is a sport, learn to be sporting first and foremost – this relates, IMO, to my third addition, below. The second is presentation – "casting well enough to fish," again, if defined as getting a fly to the general area desired, is not all there is to FFing, and an "ugly" cast with a delicate presentation is often more effective than a "textbook" (aerial/distance portion) cast that finishes by landing like a cinder block on a logging chain tossed from a truck.  Granted, that is a bit extreme as a "perfect" cast should present fairly well, but the point remains that "casting" involves a number of "steps" that 20 minutes of instruction won’t teach completely for all situations. The third "skill" (admittedly stretching "skill" a bit, but…) being that of the ability to select appropriate tackle: heavy enough for the quarry while remaining enjoyable – no 3-wt. trout setups after salmon, etc., appropriate to the angler in terms of need, budget, experience, skill, etc. – going into debt for a 1000.00-plus USD setup will not make you a better angler, and anyone who tries to convince you otherwise has more problems than fishing – you CAN catch many species on any number of 100.00USD or less setups, be they new "X-Mart Specials," Cabela’s "kits," tag sale/flea market finds, etc.  OTOH, if the only thing that limits your purchasing ability is an outfitter’s inventory and your skill and experience is such that you wish to take advantage of the diminishing returns of "better" tackle, then getting whatever you wish is completely understandable, and, appropriate to the quarry and location – under-lined, under-backed Martin "X-Mart" specials are inappropriate when bonefishing, etc. TC, R

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Question:

I’m looking for recommendations for Tarpon fly fishing in mid December.

Belize. Tarpon there aren’t huge (to around 100# mostly) but are plentiful. I like the Ambergris Caye area, but they got hit pretty hard by a hurricane this fall so you want to make sure they’ve got everything back up and running. — Charlie…

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I’m looking for recommendations for Tarpon fly fishing in mid December. Glen

I’ve fished Belize for Tarpon and had a great time, never caught one but did get a Permit and lots of Bone fish.   The area that I would recommend is the Florida Keys.   Talk to the people at Florida Keys Outfitters at:  1-305-664-5423   This is Sandy Moret’s school and FF shop.  They have the top guides… Sharp Hooks, Pat Holdzit Fishing Products Inc. http://www.holdzit.com Before you buy.

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I’m looking for recommendations for Tarpon fly fishing in mid December. Glen

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Question:

Being somewhat of a vest freak, (along with several alternatives, the best of which is a chest halter with a couple of packs on it), at the last count, which was about five minutes ago, I owned 31 separate purpose built vests, jackets, halters, creels, and related equipment.

31 vests, etc., indeed. Take a look at: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/page1/connor/con… Mike looks like a desperate deserter from the Vietnam War. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Whiner. I wear a Columbia Sportswear vest I bought at the outlet center for under $20. It has zip-off fleece sleeves, so when it’s cool I can wear a fairly tight fleece vest under the fishing vest, then zip on /zip off/add/remove layers all I want. My .02. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Guys.  Thanks for the (fewer than I’d hoped) opinions on vests. Somehow, I thought the thread would have generated a lot more discussion.

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I wear an Orvis Battenkill Pro Guide Vest.   It was one of the few vests available in my size, XXXL  (I’m 6′4+ and 300Lbs+)  It is also big enough that I can layer clothing under it, and light enough that it doesn’t bother me wearing it all day long.  There’s plenty of space for everything I carry with me including some bulkier items such as a rain poncho, bottled water, a spare reel and spare spools. Of course the fact that I have no other vests, nor have I ever worn another,  I can’t comment on how it compares to any others…..  but it has worked thus far for this (large) newbie. Joshua – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Guys.  Thanks for the (fewer than I’d hoped) opinions on vests. Somehow, I thought the thread would have generated a lot more discussion. Generally, everyone here has strong opinions on damn near everything.  I’m surprised everyone was so quiet about vest opinions.  I guess I should have said I was going to wear the vest in a burned wilderness area and wanted to look good when pilots checked me out with their binoculars:) Bob Skinner    Buffalo, WY —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Being somewhat of a vest freak, (along with several alternatives, the best of which is a chest halter with a couple of packs on it), at the last count, which was about five minutes ago, I owned 31 separate purpose built vests, jackets, halters, creels, and related equipment. Most of it is really excellent for one specific purpose, and just about useless for all others, or is at the best a severe compromise, for a whole variety of reasons. On reflection, the inevitable result is that no matter what I put on, it has some disadvantage owing to the  weather, water depth, ease of access, tackle carrying capacity, weight, lack of pockets, surfeit of pockets, etc, etc, or simply personal comfort, at the venue where I eventually arrive, after hours of agonising what to wear, and extremely difficult decisions about what I absolutely have to take along. This unfortunate situation is considerably exacerbated when I visit a new venue, and do not know what I might need, mainly because there are not many pockets big enough to accommodate a kitchen sink. My best overall fishing clothing is a GoreTex SAS camouflage jacket, but this is not suitable for use in very warm weather, when "full", ( the relatively little known "Connor

Question:

as my abused feet thaw, i thought i’d share a trip report with ya’ll. jeff arrived at the predetermined time, and i was damn near ready. we eventually loaded my gear in the truck and made our way off to the elk. we stopped at a convenience store for ice but it really wasn’t needed— we could have just as well laid the beer out in the truck bed and it would have been properly chilled upon our return. we walked the snow packed trail down and reached our favorite put-in spot. as we had rigged up at the truck, we were ready to fish. aberrantly, i cockily asked jeff if he wanted to see a fish out of the first hole. i dropped my bhhe into the water..and lordy…a rainbow made me look like a laughing prophet. jeff just shook his head and laughed. i knew we were in for one hell of a special day. nymphing in the blue cold of winter is wonderful. the air is crisp and fresh, the river is changed, yet gorgeous in it’s white blanket. i’d finish this story for ya’ll…but sweet smells are wafting down here from marie’s cooking and i’m starved… just let it be known that it really doesn’t get any better than to be astream with a good friend, no matter how friggin cold it is! waldo..prince of pilsner

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<good report snipped Nice sounding report Walt.  One time fishing the Upper Provo, my friend was not having any luck. I asked to see his rig.  He was using a gold ribbed hare’s ear.  I laid a cast using his fly rod in some ripples just before a pool and hooked up to a nice 12" rainbow.  Handed the rod back to him and told him, seems to be working fine.  It was pure luck and great timing on my part. bc. — Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt — Izaak Walton

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Blackcat writes: Nice sounding report Walt.  One time fishing the Upper Provo, my friend was not having any luck. I asked to see his rig.  He was using a gold ribbed hare’s ear.  I laid a cast using his fly rod in some ripples just before a pool and hooked up to a nice 12" rainbow.  Handed the rod back to him and told him, seems to be working fine.  It was pure luck and great timing on my part. bc.

LOL.  That has happened to all of us, I belief.  The best one that happened to me concerned a registered Maine Guide.  He was "trying out" a new 3 weight he had just made.  I sat for about 10 minutes watching him cast a size 20 emerger into a particular pool.  He asked me to try the rod.  I made several false casts, sort of getting the feel of things.  When I presented the fly, it must have landed right in front of a 17 inch land locked salmon, for he came up and slashed at the fly.  The rest is a pleasant memory.  When I released the fish, I told him it not only cast well, but landed well too.  <g Dave L.

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Question:

I can’t take credit for this bit of wisdom, I read it somwhere. But I live by it. " The fishing is always good, it’s the catching that is sometimes bad." Tim Apple

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This is an article which was rejected by several magazines etc, after they had specifically requested it. I think the tone of the article upset a few people on the editorial staff. I thought perhaps a few ROFFIANS might enjoy it. When is the best time to go fishing ? I get lots of questions from people at my classes and elsewhere about  when is the best time to go fishing.  They often tell me they have read lots of books, watched films, listened to experts etc, which advise certain times of the day, certain periods of the moon, certain combinations of weather, cloud cover, rain, sunshine, etc etc etc. Many people take careful temperature measurements of the water, air etc, and presumably decide not to fish if these are not within certain ranges, others even measure oxygen content or Ph  values as well, to aid their deliberations. This method has the decided secondary advantage that if you dont catch anything  you are then able to justify this failure with a lot of pseudo-scientific gobbledygook  guaranteed to have any normal person reeling with admiration for your angling knowledge and general perspicacity, this is in fact sometimes far more impressive than actually presenting a large well conditioned fish ! The fish in the Photo below was caught by my next door neighbour the first time in his life he went fishing. This memorable event occurred exactly two weeks after  our moving into our present house, and after we had spent four hours on the lawn at the back teaching him to cast. When we arrived at the water conditions were impossible, several anglers we met on the water told us quite emphatically that we were wasting out time, and that catching Pike on flies in this water was impossible anyway as there were too many bait fish and the fish were sated, and anyway there were only small jacks in  etc etc etc,  My neighbour got quite depressed with all this well meant information, and was rather surprised to see me blithely ignoring it. We commenced fishing and on his third cast he connected with the fish in the picture. After a raging battle which I will not bother going into now, where he nearly went overboard a couple of times, nearly strangled himself on the anchor rope, and nearly had a heart attack the first time he saw the fish

Question:

Reed (yes, I work for 5.10)

Hey, give it a rest reed.  5.10 is just another 85 buck a pair bunch of low volume bullshit.  Feed a kid in Guetemala for 2 years or help save the Blackfoot with your money.  Wear a worn out pair of keds.  Tell it to rec.boats.consume     — TJS Spokane, WA

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking through the threads it seems lots of people are seeking an excellent kayak shoe.  Gary Mekan in Salt Lake City has just the ticket, a neoprene upper based on a climbing shoe design. It provides a tight-to-your- foot fit for the close tolerances of a kayak, and excellent foot protection and support for scouting missions.  In an early prototype he even stiffened up the midsole for me so I could use it as a rafting shoe.  Truely excellent.  Worth the $$. Kayak scouting missions would be less demanding than canoe portages. Any idea how they would perform on a portage — especially a long, rocky, hilly one? — JB

Just got a peek at the new Salomon water shoe (ok,so it was a rep’s catalogue and not the real thing..) called the Exhydra or something like that.It looked pretty good.Colors to match your boat and it looked like a cross between an approach shoe and a jogger,kinda.Mesh and neoprene and a decent sole for those who need to shlep their boats. FWIW, I bought a pair of the Columbia watershoes for a whitewater trip in Ontario last summer and promptly returned them after the trip.The stitching was poor and blew out the webbing for the laces the first day…then the drainage hole things popped out…you get the picture.Salomon has more experience with feet so they should know what works and they also incorporated feedback from paddlers who tested them.There should be some shoes at Canoe Expo in Pickering,Ont. in March and I’ve been told they’ll probably cost in the neighbourhood of $100 Cdn give or take , and Trailhead will have them. Cheers, Fred

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If you hear, I’d like to know.  I’d love to have personalized paddling shoes.    Sonny Salomon

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Yeah, so where can we get’em and how much are they??

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Yeah, so where can we get’em and how much are they??

A local, independent water sports retailer, Mountain Gear, REI, or Campmor. http://www.campmor.com         "         rei.com I forget Mountain Gear’s page…something with "mgear" in it. My guess in price from low to high: Campmor, REI, Mountain Gear.  And of course, quality usually changes from those places as well.

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Looking through the threads it seems lots of people are seeking an excellent kayak shoe.  Gary Mekan in Salt Lake City has just the ticket, a neoprene upper based on a climbing shoe design. It provides a tight-to-your- foot fit for the close tolerances of a kayak, and excellent foot protection and support for scouting missions.  In an early prototype he even stiffened up the midsole for me so I could use it as a rafting shoe.  Truely excellent.  Worth the $$.

Kayak scouting missions would be less demanding than canoe portages. Any idea how they would perform on a portage — especially a long, rocky, hilly one? — JB

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In about a month, Five Ten will have their new water shoe on the market.  It is designed to be low volume so it will fit into small cockpits, yet have enough support so that you can use it for difficult portages.  Of course, it will have Five Ten’s excellent rubber on the bottom, which you should be familiar with from some of Teva’s and Chaco’s top of the line sandals.  It will retail for $85.  You should be able to check them out at a local paddling shop.  Also check out the NOC and NRS catalogs, as they will both be carrying them. Reed (yes, I work for 5.10)

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In about a month, Five Ten will have their new water shoe on the market.  It is designed to be low volume so it will fit into small cockpits, yet have enough support so that you can use it for difficult portages.  Of course, it will have Five Ten’s excellent rubber on the bottom, which you should be familiar with from some of Teva’s and Chaco’s top of the line sandals.  It will retail for $85.  You should be able to check them out at a local paddling shop.  Also check out the NOC and NRS catalogs, as they will both be carrying them. Reed (yes, I work for 5.10)

  I saw these at the outdoor retailer show last month, and was not impressed.  Yes they’re flexible and low volume to fit in a kayak cockpit, but they look and feel like they have about the same amount of support and sole stiffness as a pair of neoprene booties – maybe enough for a short scout, but certainly not anything I’d want to use on a 1/4 mile portage.  Basically, they’re like a pair of Nike aqua socks with a five-ten rubber sole, and at $85 the price is exorbitant.

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Has anyone seen anything of the paddling footwear that is rumored to be available from Salomon this year?  I checked their web site to no avail. Thanks! Mike

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Looking through the threads it seems lots of people are seeking an excellent kayak shoe.  Gary Mekan in Salt Lake City has just the ticket, a neoprene upper based on a climbing shoe design. It provides a tight-to-your- foot fit for the close tolerances of a kayak, and excellent foot protection and support for scouting missions.  In an early prototype he even stiffened up the midsole for me so I could use it as a rafting shoe.  Truely excellent.  Worth the $$. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On the same vein, a pair of Converse Chucks do a similar job.  Get em a half size large and put on a pair of neo booties/sox over poly-something sox. such a deal! and warm enough for me.  I’ll wear ‘em over my drysuit booties too. More such a deal. Rob — Rob Molyneaux, PA-C I took so many rescue classes, now my wife teases me. remove "nospam" from address to return mail Would be very reluctant to recommend converse-type boots. Tried a pair of old Airwalk canvas "skatin’ shoes" for paddling (soon after they ceased to be cool). Had a big problem that there is a stiff plastic support bit at the heel which really dug in to my ankle when bent appropriately for insertion into my boat. Never tried with the Cons, but would assume that they would have a similar structure. tim

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this re Re: river footwear??: Would be very reluctant to recommend converse-type boots. Tried a pair of old Airwalk canvas "skatin’ shoes" for paddling (soon after they ceased to be cool). Had a big problem that there is a stiff plastic support bit at the heel which really dug in to my ankle when bent appropriately for insertion into my boat. Never tried with the Cons, but would assume that they would have a similar structure.

Vasque (Portege) and 1 other boot manufacturer (can’t remember name) now make shoes soecifically for this use.  I’ve also seen "wet climbing shoes" and can’t imagine anything so described biting a bent ankle. Scott A. Miller Have a new Java product? Annouce it @ www.javalobby.org/javawire Incoming fire has the right of way

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On the same vein, a pair of Converse Chucks do a similar job.  Get em a half size large and put on a pair of neo booties/sox over poly-something sox. such a deal! and warm enough for me.  I’ll wear ‘em over my drysuit booties too. More such a deal. Rob — Rob Molyneaux, PA-C I took so many rescue classes, now my wife teases me. remove "nospam" from address to return mail

Would be very reluctant to recommend converse-type boots. Tried a pair of old Airwalk canvas "skatin’ shoes" for paddling (soon after they ceased to be cool). Had a big problem that there is a stiff plastic support bit at the heel which really dug in to my ankle when bent appropriately for insertion into my boat. Never tried with the Cons, but would assume that they would have a similar structure. tim

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I must have missed/not gotten Joshs original post,  but I’ve been using Teva "sandlehikers".  They are not really sandles as they have a full rand around the foot, and the top is a nylon mesh, with the regular teva like strap.  They drain/dry quickly, are not super heavy, work well in water, and have enough support and sole for portaging.  Much easier than having to change for rough portages.  However, as you can tell I’m a wilderness tripper, have never been in a kayak, so I don’t know what kind of room problem you might have with shoes.   Keep your stick on the ice — and your paddle wet!! Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This subject came up a few months ago and someone suggested going to one of those used sporting goods shops and picking up some wrestling shoes. Well, thats what i did. Got a pair for $7.00. The outsoles are very thin and have great traction and are very flexible. The only thing they lack is the insulative property of a neoprene material. Overall they are the best kayaking footware I’ve had. Also they don’t dry as quickly. : I’m looking to get some decent paddling shoes.  HAs anyone got any : comments about any non-sandal, non-neoprene booties??  I’ve seen ads for : the Patagonia CFS and the water tennie from 5.10 and they look cool, but : will they do the job AND fit inside my Hammer?? : PLease email me any comments, thanks a bunch. : Josh — J West

– CANOE NORTH! Rick Etter http://www.bright.net/~retter Step outside.  The graphics are AMAZING!!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This subject came up a few months ago and someone suggested going to one of those used sporting goods shops and picking up some wrestling shoes. Well, thats what i did. Got a pair for $7.00. The outsoles are very thin and have great traction and are very flexible. The only thing they lack is the insulative property of a neoprene material. Overall they are the best kayaking footware I’ve had. Also they don’t dry as quickly. : I’m looking to get some decent paddling shoes.  HAs anyone got any : comments about any non-sandal, non-neoprene booties??  I’ve seen ads for : the Patagonia CFS and the water tennie from 5.10 and they look cool, but : will they do the job AND fit inside my Hammer?? : PLease email me any comments, thanks a bunch. : Josh — J West

On the same vein, a pair of Converse Chucks do a similar job.  Get em a half size large and put on a pair of neo booties/sox over poly-something sox. such a deal! and warm enough for me.  I’ll wear ‘em over my drysuit booties too. More such a deal. Rob — Rob Molyneaux, PA-C I took so many rescue classes, now my wife teases me. remove "nospam" from address to return mail

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This subject came up a few months ago and someone suggested going to one of those used sporting goods shops and picking up some wrestling shoes. Well, thats what i did. Got a pair for $7.00. The outsoles are very thin and have great traction and are very flexible. The only thing they lack is the insulative property of a neoprene material. Overall they are the best kayaking footware I’ve had. Also they don’t dry as quickly.

: I’m looking to get some decent paddling shoes.  HAs anyone got any : comments about any non-sandal, non-neoprene booties??  I’ve seen ads for : the Patagonia CFS and the water tennie from 5.10 and they look cool, but : will they do the job AND fit inside my Hammer?? : PLease email me any comments, thanks a bunch. : Josh — J West

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Akona makes a wrestling type of shoe for watersports.  My friend has a pair, and loves them.  I got him some 5-10 rubber climbing shoe resoling kits, and now he has super sticky soles, super light shoes to fit in his Kinetic.

I just got the new NRS catalog over the weekend and they have a new 5.10 Water Tennie that looks pretty good.  I’ve got a pair of their felt soled "kickers" that I really like.  They hold wll on slippery rocks and I use them for when I’m flyfishing and wet wading. John Fereira

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Akona makes a wrestling type of shoe for watersports.  My friend has a pair, and loves them.  I got him some 5-10 rubber climbing shoe resoling kits, and now he has super sticky soles, super light shoes to fit in his Kinetic.

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I find that a cheap pair of Asics wrestling shoes work the best out of anything.  They have the lowest bulk and the best grip.  Drainage can get annoying but I just cut some holes in them.   justmy .02 cents Matt Matt Young

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I’m looking to get some decent paddling shoes.  HAs anyone got any comments about any non-sandal, non-neoprene booties??  I’ve seen ads for the Patagonia CFS and the water tennie from 5.10 and they look cool, but will they do the job AND fit inside my Hammer?? PLease email me any comments, thanks a bunch. Josh

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I like Pataguchi, but I have to say the CFS shoes suck.  My $20 booties grip better than the super hype CFS rubber.  Gave up on mine.

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I like Pataguchi, but I have to say the CFS shoes suck.  My $20 booties grip better than the super hype CFS rubber.  Gave up on mine.

I stick with my 10$ (sale) thick soled linnen schoes. They are the model that has these army-type thick soles, sturdy multi-layer linnen top and laces. The rubber of the soles is also used to create a protective layer over the toe-section. They float, are cheap, very strong and after a year the only wear I can spot is where the side of the shoe has been in touch with my boat. If they get damaged, I’ll buy a new pair You can get them everywhere around here, seems like some fashion thing. I is a bit hard to get sizes over 45 (is that 11 US?) though. Bye, — Sociology Student  at the Tilburg University,  The Netherlands Whitewater Kayaker                         AD&D Dungeon Master Secretary  of  the  Eindhoven  Canoe Club  "De Genneper Molen"   No man is wise enough, nor good enough                                      to be trusted with unlimited power.                                       Charles Colton P.S. Spammers, be informed of the installment of a spam-filter on my account.   It functions in the same way insect repellent does: It makes sure that vermin like you can’t reach me.

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I’m looking to get some decent paddling shoes.  HAs anyone got any comments about any non-sandal, non-neoprene booties??  I’ve seen ads for the Patagonia CFS and the water tennie from 5.10 and they look cool, but will they do the job AND fit inside my Hammer??

I use some Teva Wet Climbers.  They are a tennis shoe, with drain holes, and rubber soul which reach up an inch high.  So if water goes over that inch height, your foot gets wet, yet the water will drain, and the materials dry quicker than most shoes.  There is little, if any, padding so they are not the best for wearing several days.  The bottom of the soul is nearly flat with just a bit of tread, and it’s hard to get them to slip when wet.

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Question:

Anybody know of decent kitchenette/condo accomodations close to the quality water on the San Juan River in New Mexico?  Looking for a place with a kitchen and a separate bedroom. John F

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Anybody know of decent kitchenette/condo accomodations close to the quality water on the San Juan River in New Mexico?  Looking for a place with a kitchen and a separate bedroom. John F

Hi John You might try Abe’s Motel & Fly Shop at Navaho Dam. I’ve never been there but they are sure nice to talk with on the phone. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products On line catalog – tips & tricks at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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        Does anybody know a good place to stay near the quality water on the San Juan, where they have units with two rooms?  Like a kitchenette with a bedroom and a sofabed in the main room?  The only place I’ve stayed there, is Abe’s, and I don’t recall they had any rooms like that.         Also, is the fishing usually good there in late September/early October?

The Best Western in Farmington!  I’m getting soft, but the hot tub and pool!! Not to much of a drive to the river. Doug — Doug & Tammy Stephens Paris, Idaho

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        Does anybody know a good place to stay near the quality water on the San Juan, where they have units with two rooms?  Like a kitchenette with a bedroom and a sofabed in the main room?  The only place I’ve stayed there, is Abe’s, and I don’t recall they had any rooms like that.         Also, is the fishing usually good there in late September/early October?

each passing year with the competition.  Best to take a camper.  Stay as independent as you can be here.  We pull a camper, can sleep four, cook ourselves, wax away near the river.  Several other places are available but buyer beware.  Your money can go fast here. — George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s World’s Best Fly Fishing Products Snake River – Hell’s Canyon Asotin, WA 99402 / 509-243-4100  FAX 4644

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        Does anybody know a good place to stay near the quality water on the San Juan, where they have units with two rooms?  Like a kitchenette with a bedroom and a sofabed in the main room?  The only place I’ve stayed there, is Abe’s, and I don’t recall they had any rooms like that.         Also, is the fishing usually good there in late September/early October?

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Question:

Hi all: I am a newbee flyfisherperson and I want to go fishing.  I just don’t know a good spot to go this weekend.  I would like to get some input  on some decent fishing spots for a beginner to go to in the Vancouver area.  I only have waders, so I guess that stream fishing is what I am limited to for the time being. Thanks in advance Jon

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I Salmon runs have been hammered all along the Coast, but I’m sure there is still some action out there.

this is a big exaggeration! Coho fishing on the west coast of Vancouver ISle was great this year. Chinook fishing in many areas including the Charlottes and the Strait of Georgia (between Mainland and Van Isle) was also the best in years! Fear was that Fraser Sockeye were in trouble; they were not. Also closures on chinook were inplace to protect some stocks that have been mammered by the Alaskan commercial fishery but overall salmon runs were good and 97 is expected to be better!

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If fishing is your primary interest, you’ll want to be there in fall and early winter when salmon/steelhead/searun cutthroat are running. Things can be good up along the Sunshine coast and even at mouth and up Fraser River in August and September. It’s been about 9 years since I’ve worked this area but I hear there is still good bottomfishing, searun cutthroat fishing, and steelhead fishing. Salmon runs have been hammered all along the Coast, but I’m sure there is still some action out there.

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I am planning a trip to Vancouver and am curious if anyone knows the best time of yesr to go? JT

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I am planning a trip to Vancouver and am curious if anyone knows the best time of yesr to go? JT

Vancouver isn’t a high quality destination for flyfishing. However there is some sort of fishing available year round. Some possibilities; Aug-Sept Fraser river will have lots of Pinks and Sockeye available (we’re talking millions of fish)  as 97 is expected to be a high cycle year.. The river is likely to be muddy at this time and is very large; I recommend a guide. Mid Oct for coho on the Chilliwack, Chehalis and Harrison River; plan to fish weekends to avoid crowds. Use Vancouver as a jump off point to the interior of BC or Vancoucer Island; some oufits do helicopter trips to Alpine Lakes. Email me for more info Ralph H

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Question:

The Entomological Society of America sells various slide libraries for eductatinal purposes. I am sure they would include aquatic insects. You — Tim Lysyk http://www.agt.net/public/cnangler/html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am searching for individuals or company that has 35mm slides of aquatic insects of high quality.  These slides will be used in educational and

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I am searching for individuals or company that has 35mm slides of aquatic insects of high quality.  These slides will be used in educational and

There is a fellow in Colorado Springs that has a bug identification company. Can’t remember the address. Might try web search..Yahoo…entomology. I’ve got links to Mayfly Central on my web site which is at Purdue University. Might alos try contacting some of the other sites I have listed.If you e-mail them they might have something for you. My web page is http://www.commonlink.com/~Midwestflytying — Visit my web site:http://www.commonlink.com/~Midwestflytying

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I am searching for individuals or company that has 35mm slides of aquatic insects of high quality.  These slides will be used in educational and

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Question:

Can any of you kind folks give me some tips for "power baits" for fishing in SW Ontario?  We’ll be on Clay Lake along the Wabigoon R. fishing mostly for Walleyes, Pike and Bass. I know the basics, Rapalas, yellow jigs, but what type of fishing is interesting and different? What rigs & colors etc. can be sucessful? I’ll be trying to impress/outfish the curmudgeon fatherinlaw so I am truly in need! Thanks Chad

If you really want something "interesting and different" and impress your "curmudgeon fatherinlaw" try fly fishing. When I started fly fishing, it was in similar circumstances. I knew nothing about it, just bought a cheap sporting goods store outfit and a book. When we arrived at the rental house we were staying at in the Sierra Nevadas, I sat down with the book to setup the outfit, tie the knots, etc., taking flak all the time ("You’ll never catch anything","You don’t know what you’re doing", etc.). To make a long story short, I caught a modest (10 in.) brown trout on my second cast. In this case it was my father who was with me, but was he impressed! Fly fishing has become my life long pursuit ever since. Darryl

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snip.. different? What rigs & colors etc. can be sucessful? I’ll be trying to impress/outfish the curmudgeon fatherinlaw so I am truly in need! Thanks Chad If you really want something "interesting and different" and impress your "curmudgeon fatherinlaw" try fly fishing. When I started fly

snip.. my father who was with me, but was he impressed! Fly fishing has become my life long pursuit ever since. Darryl

No chance there. The man built me my fly rod! A splendid 4 wt. for the panfish and scattered trout that can be had here in the Midwest. Meanwhile he "flies" into Central American looking for Bonefish and Tarpon.  I love the magical energy of a fine rod and an artful cast, not to mention the explosion of fishy energy after that minute fly floats down to kiss the water’s surface. — chad

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Stuff Deleted… No chance there. The man built me my fly rod! A splendid 4 wt. for the panfish and scattered trout that can be had here in the Midwest. Meanwhile he "flies" into Central American looking for Bonefish and Tarpon.  

Sounds like your trip should be to a fly fishing lodge, then. Not to a place where you would be looking for hot colors for jigs, etc. Seriously, there are so many opportunities for quality fly fishing where you are going, why waste time on anything else? I love the magical energy of a fine rod and an artful cast, not to mention the explosion of fishy energy after that minute fly floats down to kiss the water’s surface. — chad

Couldn’t have said it better myself! Darryl

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  raps.   But in 3 weeks I will be on my anual trip to Kenora (dryden)   and shall give it a fair shot,..I’ll let you know how it goes there,   but right now I will mainly using my power baits  :)

I too will be heading up there in now about just approximately 11 days, 2 hours and some 55 minutes (moreorless). Can any of you kind folks give me some tips for "power baits" for fishing in SW Ontario?  We’ll be on Clay Lake along the Wabigoon R. fishing mostly for Walleyes, Pike and Bass. I know the basics, Rapalas, yellow jigs, but what type of fishing is interesting and different? What rigs & colors etc. can be sucessful? I’ll be trying to impress/outfish the curmudgeon fatherinlaw so I am truly in need! Thanks Chad

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DS Hello Marv (fellow BBS member here On Rose)  :)    I would have to agree 100%, I first saw the spoons in Cabelas   catalogue and thought they would be the ‘cats as*’ BUT upon buying one   (silver/blue/red) my hopes went WAY DOWN, plastic body, THICK/DULL   hook, not like the normal gamagatsu that are on normal rapala’s   I have yet to fish with one, so how knows, but if a lure does not   ‘feel’ good chances are I will not tie it on.    what I was hoping it   would be good for was in the Fall at Port Hope (ganaraska) at the pier   as the slamon and trout go crazy for the silver/blue/red rattling   raps.   But in 3 weeks I will be on my anual trip to Kenora (dryden)   and shall give it a fair shot,..I’ll let you know how it goes there,   but right now I will mainly using my power baits  :)   It’s close to a Johnson Silver Minnow but the body shape is slightly different. With the Johnson always used a Pork trailer, think the addition might change the "action" of said spoon (just a guess).  My Salmon Fishing Partner is going to open his swimming pool next weekend, alas I won’t be able to wet the Rap. Minnow as I’ll be on the water for the opening weekend of Walleye this coming Saturday with my Bassin’ Partner.  The Polaroid is loaded and hopefully will get some go pictures, and if we hit into the "deuce" sized Walleyes then a Shore Lunch might be on the Schedule.   Regards    Marv  *   —    RoseReader 2.10  P001256 Entered at [ROSE]    RoseMail 2.50 : RoseNet<=Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285

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