Question:

Today I took the day off work and decided to head out to Loch Lomond in Santa Cruz California to get in some flyfishing. Loch Lomond is a beautiful lake for being so close to an urban center. It’s a reservoir in a mountain valley… and if you squint just a little and ignore all of the picnic tables and hiking paths, you would swear you’re at a lake in the high sierra. It has resident populations of bass, catfish, panfish, and is planted in the spring with rainbows.  Of course, the trout is my fish of choice. Since the lake doesn’t allow wading or float tubes, your only choice is to bring or rent a boat if you want to flyfish… renting is cheap, and they rent only rowboats, so I get a free workout thrown in. I didn’t get on the lake until 11am (had to drop my daughter off at school, etc), so I did get a late start.  Thanks to the fog, though, conditions were cool and the fish were still near the surface.  One after one, I try all the dries in my flybox.. but they’re not hitting. Strange, because they are ocassionally rising (though not very often)… to what?  That’s the big question, and one I still don’t know the answer to.  Maybe there are emergers, but I can’t see any. I also try nymphing a little bit… but no luck there either. Of course, I notice the trollers and the bait dunkers at the shore aren’t having any better luck.  A couple people had good luck earlier, before I arrived, but nobody is catching. Anyway, it was a GREAT day, even if I didn’t catch a damn thing.  I was off the water by 2pm, just when the fog burned off and the air started to heat up a little.  I WILL go back soon, it was great! Now, here’s the request for knowledge section of this post: HOW does one fish nymphs in a lake?  I’ve fished dries in high sierra lakes, and dries and nymphs in rivers, but never nymphs in lakes.  Do they need movement?  The current is moving a little in the lake.  Any advise you can give me? Also, what do you think they were rising for?  Yea, I know you weren’t there, but if you had to guess…. Thanks for the help…

Response:

HOW does one fish nymphs in a lake?  

Buy and read Gary LaFontaine’s Fishing the High Mountain Lakes. You might try dangling a small brassie (chironomid imitation) below an indicator, especially if there’s a little ripple on the surface. Works for me. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

<SNIP Also, what do you think they were rising for?  Yea, I know you weren’t there, but if you had to guess….

Chironomids. ( Midge pupa). Have a look here; http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/angling/protalk/chan/confession…. The rest of the site is worth a good look as well. TL MC

Response:

Try this one as well; http://www.fishbc.com/adventure/angling/flies/chironomid/pupa.phtml TL MC

Response:

Thanks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HOW does one fish nymphs in a lake? Buy and read Gary LaFontaine’s Fishing the High Mountain Lakes. You might try dangling a small brassie (chironomid imitation) below an indicator, especially if there’s a little ripple on the surface. Works for me. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Thanks and thanks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have a look here; http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/angling/protalk/chan/confession…. The rest of the site is worth a good look as well. TL MC

Response:

 Chironomids, all various colors coming off lakes or any other hatch you can identify are difficult to fish on lakes.  The trout are many times large and they are cruisers.  The difficulty in fishing for cruising trout feeding on emerging Chironomids is timing.  Timing is everything. Pick a fish out that you see break the surface one, two, cast, three!  The fish are taking Chironomids just under the surface, not on top of it.  They cruise about a foot or two under looking up.  They come up and take the food in an arch, their backs breaking the water.  This means you may have to try dangling about six to eight inches of tippet "under the water" and float the rest of the tippet and leader on top.  Lead the fish, and then twitch about an inch or two.  Dress the first few inches of leader with Xink and that includes the nymph or Chironomid pattern of your choice.  Float the rest of your leader and fly line. "The Take," is one of perpetual motion and a cruiser will hook themselves for obvious reasons.  The initial response is one of surprise.  Make sure you lower your rod tip level and sideways to the first run because it will be a duzzie! Hope this helps.  You WILL catch fish. George Gehrke "Chironomids are Cillers"

Response:

Question:

Hi My sentiments are similar to Christian’s first posting. I prefer a slightly stiffer rod when Spey casting, I started with a so called "Spey" but found it difficult to achieve distance without perfect timing. You need to slow down your whole casting action, wait for the rod to load before applying the power. Timing is everything when using a traditional Spey actioned rod. They are not suitable for using with any kind of sinking line, the action is just too slow and this gives the line time to sink between the "back cast" and forward cast. I soon changed to a 15′ 1" Sage with a stiffer action and found this to be near perfect for me, with both floating and sinking lines. It can be used with shooting heads as Christian mentions (12 meters of #12 line is perfect) and casts of 40+ yards are fairly routine with this method. It is tireing though having to strip in nearly 30 yards of line every cast. As for breakages, the more expensive the rod the better the guarentee (usually), my Sage has a lifetime guarentee, the Diawa doesn’t have any guarentee. As usual it all comes down to "how much you want to spend". Bruce & Walker rods are a range I can recommend – buy the "Walker" rods they have the stiffer action. The Norway or Speycaster range are excellent rods. The Diawa Amorphous is a good range. At the top of the tree are the Sage and the Hardy Ultralite/Elite range. Only my opinions. Chris

Response:

Hi Chris

Hi Chris I would like to make a couple of small but very important points here regarding your change from one rod to another. It is my humble opinion  your first rod didn’t quite suit your casting style and or body shape. With the greatest respects that doesn’t mean that particular rod is not suitable for somebody else. Just as your move to a Sage doesn’t mean that a Sage will suit everybody. My point is that the individual must buy a rod that suits/fits him or her. Two of my mates fish and cast perfectly well with 19ft (yes 19 feet) B&W’s but I cannot cast very well with them. I can cast however the same amount of line (as them) with a 15ft B&W, I can also cast a few of the other available rods, including almost all of the Daiwa rods, equally well. Other rods that I cannot come to grips with are the B&W Hexograph the Sage (Chris’s rod) and some of the Walkers although I think with practice I could master the Walkers. My point is that someone buying a new rod must try a few out first and choose the one that they think suits them. I fish regularly with a stiff rod the B&W 15ft heavy duty Expert, but this rod has a very fast action, unlike the slower action of the ones I cannot use. As mentioned before there are many X’s in the equation and here are some of them. A stiff rod with a fast action A stiff rod with a slow action A soft rod with a slow action ( I can’t think of a soft rod that’s got a fast action) The size of line you choose to fish with your chosen rod, (normally rods are rated for three sizes, but there is a tremendous difference between a 9 and an 11. This will also has an impact on how soft the rod feels and casts) Floating etc…etc…etc…. Okay I’m off the pedastal ) Regards Lawr, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi My sentiments are similar to Christian’s first posting. I prefer a slightly stiffer rod when Spey casting, I started with a so called "Spey" but found it difficult to achieve distance without perfect timing. You need to slow down your whole casting action, wait for the rod to load before applying the power. Timing is everything when using a traditional Spey actioned rod. They are not suitable for using with any kind of sinking line, the action is just too slow and this gives the line time to sink between the "back cast" and forward cast. I soon changed to a 15′ 1" Sage with a stiffer action and found this to be near perfect for me, with both floating and sinking lines. It can be used with shooting heads as Christian mentions (12 meters of #12 line is perfect) and casts of 40+ yards are fairly routine with this method. It is tireing though having to strip in nearly 30 yards of line every cast. As for breakages, the more expensive the rod the better the guarentee (usually), my Sage has a lifetime guarentee, the Diawa doesn’t have any guarentee. As usual it all comes down to "how much you want to spend". Bruce & Walker rods are a range I can recommend – buy the "Walker" rods they have the stiffer action. The Norway or Speycaster range are excellent rods. The Diawa Amorphous is a good range. At the top of the tree are the Sage and the Hardy Ultralite/Elite range. Only my opinions. Chris

Response:

My fishing buddy and I have obseved a few people Spey casting up here on the Miramichi.  It looks like fun.  They cast a mile-long line.  But, we have always wondered if the method helps them catch more fish?  We cover the same amount of water (or more) by fishing from a canoe.  If there are fish that are out of our reach, we just move the boat into a position so that we get a good swing over them. JB

Response:

Hi Lawr You are right to make these valid points but I thought I had mentioned them in my original posting, I checked and I had. I prefer a slightly stiffer rod when Spey casting Timing is everything when using a traditional Spey actioned rod. I soon changed to a 15′ 1" Sage with a stiffer action and found this to be near perfect for me

I think these snippits confirm that the information I gave was MY preferences, I was not trying to make hard and fast rules that apply to everybody. As for hard and fast rules I still believe the only comment I made against traditional actioned "spey" rods was They are not suitable for using with any kind of sinking line, the action is just too slow and this gives the line time to sink between the "back cast" and forward cast.

and this is something I still maintain. Thanks for keeping us on our toes Lawr. Chris

Response:

I’m sorry Chris!! I wasn’t trying to have a go at your opinions, postings can often come across a bit strong. My intention was to add other considerations to all the other opinions including yours. Don’t mind me I rattle on a bit when it’s a subject I like ) however I can say sorry and I can do a U-Turn if I’m wrong ) Best Regards Lawr, PS Have you checked out the Ness System reports etc…on my website?? www.f-deans.freeserve.co.uk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Lawr You are right to make these valid points but I thought I had mentioned them in my original posting, I checked and I had. I prefer a slightly stiffer rod when Spey casting Timing is everything when using a traditional Spey actioned rod. I soon changed to a 15′ 1" Sage with a stiffer action and found this to be near perfect for me I think these snippits confirm that the information I gave was MY preferences, I was not trying to make hard and fast rules that apply to everybody. As for hard and fast rules I still believe the only comment I made against traditional actioned "spey" rods was They are not suitable for using with any kind of sinking line, the action is just too slow and this gives the line time to sink between the "back cast" and forward cast. and this is something I still maintain. Thanks for keeping us on our toes Lawr. Chris

Response:

Hi, I am interested in buying a double handed salmon rod, It should be quite allround, so I am thinking of a rod of about 14′ for #9/10. I have been casting both (still having to learn a lot) and like the single and double Spey and rollcasts. Should I choose the somewhat softer "old" design Speycastrods or would a modern stiffer design be better ???? I don’t want to start with just a cheap rod, then a fair rod, a good rod and after that buying a realy nice rod. Good advise is welcome……. Regards, Ger.

Response:

It should be quite allround, so I am thinking of a rod of about 14′ for #9/10. [...] Should I choose the somewhat softer "old" design Speycastrods or would a modern stiffer design be better ????

I say go for the modern stiffer design.  Not that you especially need a stiff rod, but because the old design speyrods were designed with traditional speycasting in mind, meaning loading the rod all the way around the spey cast. Nowadays, you would just go with a shooting head and a spiced up roll cast. I’ll happily admit, I’m drawing up two extremes here, and even though your question kinda opened that door, it isn’t particularly useful in terms of fishing. The old style spey casting would enable you to cast a 45 yard DT line in a single casting motion, but it required very good technique and it was also hard work. Rods had to be heavy and slow action to perform such a cast, and I think you need to wear tweed to get it right, as well..   That time has past, basically. — At least here in Norway. ( it seems the time of rivers packed with salmon are gone up here too..)  Lightweight, fast rods are dominating, and shooting heads are getting more popular. Some still use WF-lines or other taperings, in contrast to the now rare, but formerly very popular DT line. Most people tend to retrieve quite a bit of line before making the cast (especially with shooting heads), and the cast isn’t really a jolly old God save the Queen spey cast (Hi there, Brits! , but more like an advanced roll cast. It works, and I’ve found it to be much easier than real spey casting. The distance potential is impeccable, and its only drawback is that you have your fly less in the water than with real spey casting (due to line retrieval between casts). Also, sinking vs. floating line can make a difference in your choice. To handle a sinking line, a light weight, fast tip-action rod might not be sufficient. But for WF or ST floating lines, the faster and lighter rod would excel. So, I think you need to ask yourself, do you want to fish effectively and easily with a two-handed rod, or do you in fact want to learn the traditional spey casting?  Absolutely nothing wrong with the latter. I may be off with my definitions. The last time I responded to a spey cast question, several knowledgeable people objected and offered alternative views, and I can’t guarantee I got it right this time. I just feel that you perhaps shouldn’t go for the heavy, slow action rod, based solely on tradition, without considering more modern applications of two-handed casting (and besides, slow action rods doesn’t have to be heavy – I just made that up.. ). As always when buying a rod, test casting several options is the best way to go. We all have our quirks and preferences. Too fast of an action can be very bad, considering you’re dealing with a 14′ rod here –the longer the rod, the more accuracy is needed in handling it. Personally, I would put great emphasis on weight. I use to have a Bruce & Walker Powerlite 15′, an absolutely wonderful rod, extremely light weight for its size. It broke, and most other rods I’ve tried, made me and especially my back longing for my B&W.. Its successor is the B&W Powerlite Speycaster, and if you have the chance, I’d suggest you have a look at it. — Christian Figenschou – http://figen.com

Response:

Should I choose the somewhat softer "old" design Speycastrods or would a modern stiffer design be better ????

If you plan to use switch, single and double spey casts, then go with a true "spey" rod. If you plan to use casts like one would with a trout rod (i.e. overhand + false casting), then go with a more modern rod. The big difference is that the spey rod flexes for the entire length of the shaft, and it can handle flexing in all directions.  More modern rods have a "progressive taper" where the butt section of the shaft hardly bends and most of the flex occurs in the top 1/3-rd of the shaft.  Modern rods have also been optimized for front-back casting, and may not handle flexing in all directions as well as a spey rod. Finally, don’t confuse stiffness with power.  Modern rods have a quick snappy tip designed to generate high line speed over a short distance.  Older rods, including glass, generate moderate line speed, but over a greater distance. In part because of my decent but not super-powerful wrist and forearm strength, I feel like I can toss a line farther and more accurately with the softer rods. Thomas Gilg

Response:

Thomas and Christian have given you very good advice however it is my humble opinion that you must buy a rod that suits/fits  *you*.  When buying a pair of shoes you do not buy a pair that fits somebody else and this is the case with Spey Rods. When Spey casting/fishing there are many many X’s in the equation and without trying a rod on to see if it *fits* you (and the type of water you are fishing) you will be unaware of them. This is why it takes years to perfect a good Spey cast. You are right however to go for a good quality rod first time round. On the river Ness System Scotland, a great Spey casting area, the most common rod is the Daiwa  Amorphous 15 or 16 ft, I don’t own one at the moment but if buying a new rod I would buy the 15ft. The extra lightweight rods *may* have a tendency to break as Christian pointed out especially if using a sink tip or full sinking line. HTH Lawr, www.f-deans.freeserve.co.uk         "Fishing On The Fly"               :{)< – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi, I am interested in buying a double handed salmon rod, It should be quite allround, so I am thinking of a rod of about 14′ for #9/10. I have been casting both (still having to learn a lot) and like the single and double Spey and rollcasts. Should I choose the somewhat softer "old" design Speycastrods or would a modern stiffer design be better ???? I don’t want to start with just a cheap rod, then a fair rod, a good rod and after that buying a realy nice rod. Good advise is welcome……. Regards, Ger.

Response:

Oh! dear does your friend have a licence ) (only kidding) When you get accustomed to a rod it is difficult to make the transition to another rod. Even two rods from the same maker with exactly the same specifications (i.e. two B&W 15ft heavy duty Experts) can have different actions. Over the years I have seen quite a few Spey rods broken during casting (the noise is a bit like a gun going off) with no particular rod type being the worst case.  IMHO it would be more difficult to break an Expert than say a Powerlight especially if using a sinking line or sink tip coupled with 3 inch leaded waddington. I know the above is an extreme case but you may need a rod that is capable of fishing all the extremes. Regards Lawr, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The extra lightweight rods *may* have a tendency to break as Christian pointed out especially if using a sink tip or full sinking line. In this particular case, I’ve found them to have a tendency of breaking when your friend runs over them with his car..   — Christian Figenschou – http://figen.com

Response:

Question:

Do you really think that selling fly reels is the "public welfare"?< Well, it’s in MY welfare and last time I checked, I was a member of the great unwashed public.

THIS IS NOT MY POST!!!!!   I DID NOT POST THIS Check for your self.  I might be a lot of things-  but I would NEVER post under anyone else’s name.  Look Ken F.  I’m laughing like a dawg at a lot of this,  but YOU were cool to me when a few others dogged my ass…   Don’t you let this fool you. I can play games w/ the best of’em-  but the bastards better play fair-  ’cause  I sure as hell know how to fight dirty-   You see for your self.   I am nothing if not loyal to my own ethic.  You may not understand that ethic-  BUT  look around and see…   I made one hell of a mark fer a new scum bag.   Do I EVER not sign my posts? The primary concern of the individual should be that of becoming ‘diluted’, more specifically- Delusion. That shit is NOT RIGHT!!!!] The real BRUCE post Outta be 200 lbs of low grade CHUM!!!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – THAT wasn’t the question Bellows.  The question was, why aren’t the shop carrying all our other products because the are so good. Now THAT, is a good question. Finally, this isn’t a question of me/us/ making money to pay many people their rightful wages and livelihood.  It is a question of "SERVICE" being provided at the retail level.  We make more money for Distributors and Retailers then what we profit by at the lower food-chain level of capitalism.  I hope you remember that in your regard Mr. Bellows.  I’m not the injured party here.  It is the retail shop owner and the American Fly Fisherman that are the injured party because the Retailer isn’t looking out for your interests and finally, not his own.

george, get over yourself.  there are plenty of other products that compete with your products that are just as good, if not better.  while it’s all well and good that you are proud of your products, and i would expect nothing less from a business owner, you must realize that other people’s products are damn good… and that if a fly shop decides to carry them instead of your products, they are doing what they feel is best for THEIR customers.  i frequent a shop that doesn’t sell many of your products… do i feel short shafted?  HELL NO.  if i thought i’d gain by using your flyfuzz (or whatever the hell it is) vs. the naturals and synthetics i allready use… i’d let the owner know and have him order me some.  i’m not losing out on diddly, no matter how much you think so.  same with your dubbing wax.  if i thought i absolutely had to have it, i would.  george, it’s friggin wax for christ’s sake.  i can’t imagine my tying would be so much better with a different kind of wax, no matter what gerke propoganda you choose to use. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you for your comments.  If you haven’t tried a NEW tube of FLY-MAKER’S WAX then you may not know what you are missing as a fly tier, for instance, nor any of our other products. George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s Outdoor Fly Fishing Products. Visit: http://www.gink.com MAY I SUGGEST THAT THOSE WHO cannot get our products at their local fly shop MAY ORDER FACTORY DIRECT at the same retail level (and sometimes less).  WE want to get any or all of our products into everyone’s hands, no matter what it takes. Please visit the capitalistic pig’s WEB SITE ABOVE.  or here : http://www.gink.com/ Read about what we can do for you.  If you want to truly protect your fly lines for instance, TRY our PZ fly line dressing and cleaner.  It is the best in the world.

when you call everything you make "the best in the world" my bullshit alarm starts screaming. EVERYTHING is guaranteed.  I defy everyone not to like anything we make.  

well, i’m not a huge fan of gink.  it’s allright, but not divine.  i enjoy trying out lots of different products… some work well, some don’t.   We happen to have the world’s best Guarantee also.  It seems to never end – this quality of products we make.  We are in a very Special Field of this Industry.

blah, blah, blah, propoganda, blah, blah, blah….lol chris

Response:

THAT wasn’t the question Bellows.  The question was, why aren’t the shop carrying all our other products because the are so good. Now THAT, is a good question. Finally, this isn’t a question of me/us/ making money to pay many people their rightful wages and livelihood.  It is a question of "SERVICE" being provided at the retail level.  We make more money for Distributors and Retailers then what we profit by at the lower food-chain level of capitalism.  I hope you remember that in your regard Mr. Bellows.  I’m not the injured party here.  It is the retail shop owner and the American Fly Fisherman that are the injured party because the Retailer isn’t looking out for your interests and finally, not his own. Thank you for your comments.  If you haven’t tried a NEW tube of FLY-MAKER’S WAX then you may not know what you are missing as a fly tier, for instance, nor any of our other products. George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s Outdoor Fly Fishing Products. Visit: http://www.gink.com MAY I SUGGEST THAT THOSE WHO cannot get our products at their local fly shop MAY ORDER FACTORY DIRECT at the same retail level (and sometimes less).  WE want to get any or all of our products into everyone’s hands, no matter what it takes. Please visit the capitalistic pig’s WEB SITE ABOVE.  or here : http://www.gink.com/ Read about what we can do for you.  If you want to truly protect your fly lines for instance, TRY our PZ fly line dressing and cleaner.  It is the best in the world. EVERYTHING is guaranteed.  I defy everyone not to like anything we make.  We happen to have the world’s best Guarantee also.  It seems to never end – this quality of products we make.  We are in a very Special Field of this Industry. Very Special. gg

Response:

Otherwise  L.R.  I don’t know what else to do.  Every fly shop that carries all our products grosses several thousand dollars a year or more.

george, you’re the only one making lots of money of gink, xink, and your wonderful wax… how many bottles of gink must a shop sell to make thousands of dollars<G?

Response:

_______ Everyone needs to have a heart to heat with their local pro shop.  Each Pro Shop that orders some of our other products they don’t carry, gets free samples of everything we carry that they can sell at full retail which is around thirty – $50 dollars worth of pure profit. Take this into your local retail outfitter and show them this offer.  If anyone has any other idea, I’m for it.  I’ll donate a whole box full of products for your favorite fly fishing club or person in need.  Each person that gets a fly shop to order two or more new products they haven’t tried with us yet, gets a complete set of FISH-FUZZ.  This is around $66 worth of free, deadly, streamer, wet fly, tying material in dazzling colors. Otherwise  L.R.  I don’t know what else to do.  Every fly shop that carries all our products grosses several thousand dollars a year or more. We move a lot of product that takes care of the majority of most fly fisherman’s needs world wide, but we could do a lot better Mr. Trout. You are certainly correct about this. Thanks for your support.  It is an excellent fly tying wax at that. Sincerely, george gehrke Used your fly tying wax for the first time this evening tying up some Golden Ribbed Hare’s Ears.  Best wax I’ve ever used.  How come so many places only carry Gink and not your other stuff? L. Baird

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?  I know up in the Sierra’s you can still catch Volcano creek and Kern river Goldens in what I think are their ancestral (sp?) waters, but where else?  Are there still some Apache trout swimming where they always have, without the assistance of Man?  Greenbacks?  Lahontans?  Are the Cutts in Yellowstone completely pure?  Or have they been augmented by Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this topic? JE

Try the south fork of the Flathead river. Only has native west slope cutthroats and dolly varden. both are thriving, and are natives.   little hard to reach though…. in the bob Marshall Wilderness…. which is why they are still natives.

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I’m on the other side of the mountains, but there are a few little small streams coming down out of the mountains near my house have have native brookies.  And 8 incher is a lunker, but they’re gorgeous.

Response:

Apache trout are still found in decent numbers in one watershed on the eastern Sierra, but no fishing is allowed and it is patrolled by a back country ranger whose only territory is that particular watershed.

OOOOOOPPPPS!! This was supposed to say Piute Cutthroat, not Apache trout.                                       Sorry ’bout that,                                               Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man? Jon, I don’t know a lot about many places, but wild native Brook Trout are still to be found in a few of the spring creek headwaters in the Appalachians (North Georgia, N.C.) but they are having a real tough time surviving the ever encroaching effects of man. As I’m sure you’re aware, the Brookie needs colder, clearer water than most freshwater species, and this presents a problem as the streams warm due to the activities on or near the various watershed.  Also, they cannot fend for themselves when pitted against Browns and Rainbows for a limited food supply. Sadly, another problem that the little brookies have is that they have a reputation of being too easy, and too small (we’re not talking Labrador here) so they don’t get a lot of attention.

Here in the eastern  part of Tn we still have some native brookies. It looks like they are coming back. I recently caught and released a  10 inch brook trout and caught many more of lesser caliber. Hans

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Fereira) writes: Do you know if the "Eagle Lake" rainbow is considered "native"?

Yes, it is native to Eagle Lake in Northern CA but has also been transplanted to lots of otherwise dead waters or to places where water is too alkaline for other types of trout including more common strains of rainbows .  This particular strain can tolerate higher alkalinity than normal trout.  They also get REAL BIG!                                   Good Fishing,                                        Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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Yep! Terry Weir is right. Every fish I catch is a native, wild fish! Love that salt water biodiversity too! Wayne Marshall

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I think the brookies in Shenandoah NP are native. — Charlie… You weren’t supposed to tell

OOPs<g. They are so pretty though and hard enough to catch that I hope I didn’t do any harm. I can remember hiking back in a couple of miles, suprising a bear or two, and crawling up behind a boulder to make a cast into a pool that couldn’t have been much bigger than the inside of my rental car. What a lot of fun! — Charlie…

Response:

Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?  I know up in the Sierra’s you can still catch Volcano creek and Kern river Goldens in what I think are their ancestral (sp?) waters, but where else?  Are there still some Apache trout swimming where they always have, without the assistance of Man?  Greenbacks?  Lahontans?  Are the Cutts in Yellowstone completely pure?  Or have they been augmented by Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this topic? JE

I think the brookies in Shenandoah NP are native. — Charlie…

Response:

I think the brookies in Shenandoah NP are native. — Charlie…

You weren’t supposed to tell

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man? JE <snip you would like the book "Native Trout of North America" by Robert H. Smith published by Amato Publications.  this book is a search for native, pure strain fish.  lots of searching of the high desert, tiny streams, etc.  pretty good reading too.  he goes after the fish with a fly rod. I second the recommendation for Robert H. Smiths book.  It’s been my resourse for any question that have come up in the group over the past few years.   John Fereira

  Yes; also for a strictly scientific approach to this interesting subject, try Robert J. Behnke’s monograph of western trouts: _Native Trout of Western North America_ pub. by: American Fisheries Society 5410 Grosvenor Lane, Suite 110 Bethesda, MD  20814   Cheers, and tight Lines! – Mark

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: Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the : continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the [snip] : Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this : topic? Read Lewis and Clark’s Journal.  The same fish are still here in this part of the world. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Otherwise thank all your angler fellows introducing brook trout, rainbows, and – even worse- brown trout (of course with WD) into rivers where they outcompete the natives.

[deleted] Then the hypocritical irony of calling these the ‘wild fish’ and not wanting to eat ‘em because they are beautiful wild fish. TimW

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ry the Atlantic ocean. Native Stripers and Blues up to 30 lbs or more on a fly. That’s fishin!                                 Terry Weir         Right on Terry.  I grew up on Long Island sound and looked forward to every autum for a shot at those really BIG Blues.           I was speaking specifically of trout in the post though.  By the way, how is the Bluefish run shaping up this year?  It’s been a long time…… JE

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?  I know up in the Sierra’s you can still catch Volcano creek and Kern river Goldens in what I think are their ancestral (sp?) waters, but where else?  Are there still some Apache trout swimming where they always have, without the assistance of Man?  Greenbacks?  Lahontans?  Are the Cutts in Yellowstone completely pure?  Or have they been augmented by Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this topic? California is loaded with native rainbows.  They are indiginous to the west slope of the sierra and are wide spread with many identifiable strains.

Do you know if the "Eagle Lake" rainbow is considered "native"? The giant Lahontan Cutthroat is gone for good, but some "almost" pure strain can still be found in the Eastern Sierra and in Pyramid Lake in Nevada.  The population in Pyramid Lake is artificially spawned each year by the Indians who control the Lake.  The original strain was wiped out with Bureau of Land Management project #1 which was the Darby Dam on the Truckee River.  

The Piute cutthroat can still be found in it’s native waters in an area a bit further south. Ralph Cutter has some great info on these trout in his book "Sierra Trout Guide".

Agreed. Robert Behnke has a good book out on Native Trout of North America (think that’s the title) but it is hard to find and expensive.

Actually Behnke’s book is called "Native Trout of Western North America".   Robert Smiths book is called "Native Trout of North America".                                  Hope this helps,                                          Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?  I know up in the Sierra’s you can still catch Volcano creek and Kern river Goldens in what I think are their ancestral (sp?) waters, but where else?  Are there still some Apache trout swimming where they always have, without the assistance of Man?  Greenbacks?  Lahontans?  Are the Cutts in Yellowstone completely pure?  Or have they been augmented by Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this topic? JE you would like the book "Native Trout of North America" by Robert H. Smith published by Amato Publications.  this book is a search for native, pure strain fish.  lots of searching of the high desert, tiny streams, etc.  pretty good reading too.  he goes after the fish with a fly rod.

I second the recommendation for Robert H. Smiths book.  It’s been my resourse for any question that have come up in the group over the past few years.   John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

Try the Atlantic ocean. Native Stripers and Blues up to 30 lbs or more on a fly. That’s fishin!                                 Terry Weir

Response:

Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?  I know up in the Sierra’s you can still catch Volcano creek and Kern river Goldens in what I think are their ancestral (sp?) waters, but where else?  Are there still some Apache trout swimming where they always have, without the assistance of Man?  Greenbacks?  Lahontans?  Are the Cutts in Yellowstone completely pure?  Or have they been augmented by Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this topic?

California is loaded with native rainbows.  They are indiginous to the west slope of the sierra and are wide spread with many identifiable strains.  The Shasta rainbow is one strain that is found throughout northern CA, and the McCloud rainbow is still found in its native waters of the McCloud river in CA.  Strange thing, McCloud has the Shasta Rainbow and the McCloud (subspecies) in the same water along with the non-native brown trout (two strains of that one also).  Pure strain McCloud rainbows are easily discerned by their tangerine orange stripe and cheeks along with orange cuts under the chin.  Not often caught, but spectacular fish. There is not a question what it is when you catch one. Specific strains of Steelhead have been all but wiped out in many areas, But some native runs survive.  Skamania Strain (Washington state strain from Skamania River) hatchery replacements were introduced in many of the rivers to mitigate the destruction (and continued destruction) of their habitat.  Poor attempt at a solution. Apache trout are still found in decent numbers in one watershed on the eastern Sierra, but no fishing is allowed and it is patrolled by a back country ranger whose only territory is that particular watershed. Numerous fly fishing clubs have helped with stream reconstruction projects ther to help repair damage from grazing cattle. The giant Lahontan Cutthroat is gone for good, but some "almost" pure strain can still be found in the Eastern Sierra and in Pyramid Lake in Nevada.  The population in Pyramid Lake is artificially spawned each year by the Indians who control the Lake.  The original strain was wiped out with Bureau of Land Management project #1 which was the Darby Dam on the Truckee River.   Although they thought they provided for it, the dam wiped out all of the spawning area and within a few years, the 40 lb. + Lahontan Cutthroat were gone.  Used to be a cannery at the mouth of the Lake that netted fish, canned them, and shipped them throughout the world in the 1800’s.  Was a booming industry until the dam.  They did find some pockets of the Lahontan Cutthroat in some lakes on the east slope of the Sierra and that is what is currently in Pyramid Lake.  There is some controversy as to whether they are pure strain or not, but they don’t grow nearly as large as the native strain that was in Pyramid Lake.  Still catch 8 to 15 lb. Cutthroat there, but not much chance of breaking that 40 lb. record. Goldens can still be found in the Kern drainage (native waters), but few are pure strain as there were hatchery plants again in the 1800’s when rainbow hatcheries were thought to be the best thing since sliced bread. There are some pure strain fish still in there that were geologically isolated from the drainage they dumped the rainbow plants in.  Ralph Cutter has some great info on these trout in his book "Sierra Trout Guide". We also have lots of native squaw fish but they are not much of a gamefish and they predate on salmonids. Robert Behnke has a good book out on Native Trout of North America (think that’s the title) but it is hard to find and expensive.                                   Hope this helps,                                           Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?   snip< JE

 Try Maine, Jon.  There are still places producing  fairly good size native brook trout.   And, the landlock salmon fishing ain’t too shabby either.  However, I believe the landlocks were stocked as fingerlings years ago.  Of course you may have trouble finding *exactly* where to go. ;0) Dave L.

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Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?  I know up in the Sierra’s you can still catch Volcano creek and Kern river Goldens in what I think are their ancestral (sp?) waters, but where else?  Are there still some Apache trout swimming where they always have, without the assistance of Man?  Greenbacks?  Lahontans?  Are the Cutts in Yellowstone completely pure?  Or have they been augmented by Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this topic? JE

Take a look at Ralph Cutters book about the Sierra Nevada. Otherwise thank all your angler fellows introducing brook trout, rainbows, and – even worse- brown trout (of course with WD) into rivers where they outcompete the natives. Look at recent discussions about the reintroduction of native grayling into Yellowstone National Park and all the counterarguments of these f****** stupid fisherman who only want to catch lots of big fish without caring about ecological interconnections. The general agreement of environmental destruction (what else is the deminishing of species variety in a given biotop?) is responsible that you can

Question:

Ask Kiene about Shad. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d love some suggestions for locations to fly fish near Sacramento or Napa….. I’m forced to be in the area in the evenings and have all of my fishing gear, but just don’t have the time to make it to the redding area. Thanks for the help, tight lines. Marc! assistants at 800/4000 FLYor better visit the  Kiene’s Fly Shop, 2654 Marconi Avenue, Sacramento, and they will tell you all you need to know. They are great fellows, they know the area and it’s one of the nicest fly shops i have visited! //Thorsten

Response:

I’d love some suggestions for locations to fly fish near Sacramento or Napa….. I’m forced to be in the area in the evenings and have all of my fishing gear, but just don’t have the time to make it to the redding area. Thanks for the help, tight lines.

Response:

I’d love some suggestions for locations to fly fish near Sacramento or Napa….. I’m forced to be in the area in the evenings and have all of my fishing gear, but just don’t have the time to make it to the redding area. Thanks for the help, tight lines.

Marc! assistants at 800/4000 FLYor better visit the  Kiene’s Fly Shop, 2654 Marconi Avenue, Sacramento, and they will tell you all you need to know. They are great fellows, they know the area and it’s one of the nicest fly shops i have visited! //Thorsten

Response:

I’d love some suggestions for locations to fly fish near Sacramento or Napa….. I’m forced to be in the area in the evenings and have all of my fishing gear, but just don’t have the time to make it to the redding area. Thanks for the help, tight lines.

Marc! Kiene’s Fly Shop, 2654 Marconi Avenue, Sacramento, or call him or his assistants at 800/4000 FLY and they will tell you all you need to know. //Thorsten

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Question:

I’ve built a kayak cart for my Caspia and question that $30 amount.  The wheels alone for mine cost $12 each.  Sure, I could have paid less but I wanted wheels at least 8" to make it easy to roll.    

Mine has 10" wheels that were $7.96 apiece. I’ve posted a picture and description on my Web pages: http://home.earthlink.net/~iadams/ Follow the kayaking link. Ira  Adams

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I’ve built a kayak cart for my Caspia and question that $30 amount.  The wheels alone for mine cost $12 each.  Sure, I could have paid less but I wanted wheels at least 8" to make it easy to roll.     Mine has 10" wheels that were $7.96 apiece. I’ve posted a picture and description on my Web pages: http://home.earthlink.net/~iadams/ Follow the kayaking link.

Whoops! The link in question was messed up on my site. It’s fixed now. Ira  Adams

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You might call Keel Haulers Outfitters 1-800-484-9832 They sell both Perception & Wilderness Systems Kayaks. Check out their WEB page — John Kobak <A <P<A HREF="http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/keelhaul/kh.htm"Keel Haulers Canoe Club</A <P<A HREF="http://pages.prodigy.net/keelhauler/"Outfitters Catalog</A

Response:

I went down that road too just recently. If you plan on using your Kayak solo at any time, consider that a tandem is difficult for one person to use. I was looking at the Pamlico and the Jocassee until this point was made and I relalized that my fishing would be affected. Also there is such a thing as too much togetherness. You know, back seat drivers, speed demons verses the coasters, sightseers verses the goal seekers. It cost a lot more but we now have his and hers kayaks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking to buy a kayak that will be used on lakes and possibly rivers (calm).  I want a tandem kayak and have looked at Perceptions Keowee 2 and Jocassee.  The salesman also mentioned Wilderness Systems Pamlico and Pamlico Excel although he didn’t have any in stock at the time.  I would appreciated any info folks in the group may be able to give me concerning these kayaks.  Is there much maintenance on these rotomolded kayaks?   It has been over 20 years since I went white water rating with a tour group and as I would like to get back into shape and the wife likes water (calm) I figured a tandem kayak would be perfect.  Again thanks for any info you can give a beginner.  

Response:

I went down that road too just recently. If you plan on using your Kayak solo at any time, consider that a tandem is difficult for one person to use. I was looking at the Pamlico and the Jocassee until this point was made and I relalized that my fishing would be affected.

Actually, the Jocassee paddles very nicely as a single (unless you’re silly enough to try paddling it alone without moving the front seat back to the singles position). The only disadvantage to using the Jocassee for flatwater fishing would be that it’s heavy and thus can be awkward to load/unload by oneself. It will require a dolly to move by yourself unless you’re a weightlifter. A dolly can be two wheels & an axle, from the local Wal-Mart – $30, tops. If I’m correct in thinking that the Pamlico is a Jocassee knock-off, then it would probably work just as well. The Keowee 2 would be good also, with the advantages of being lighter, shorter, and easier to handle, and the disadvantages of being slower to paddle and having not quite as much room for gear or friends. Ira  Adams

Response:

I went down that road too just recently. If you plan on using your Kayak solo at any time, consider that a tandem is difficult for one person to use. I was looking at the Pamlico and the Jocassee until this point was made and I relalized that my fishing would be affected.

There is a Pamlico Sport.  It’s a Pamlico equipped with a Motorguide 20 ft/lb. electric trolling motor which can be lowered and raised while sitting in the cockpit and steered with your feet.   Actually, the Jocassee paddles very nicely as a single (unless you’re silly enough to try paddling it alone without moving the front seat back to the singles position). The only disadvantage to using the Jocassee for flatwater fishing would be that it’s heavy and thus can be awkward to load/unload by oneself. It will require a dolly to move by yourself unless you’re a weightlifter. A dolly can be two wheels & an axle, from the local Wal-Mart – $30, tops.

I’ve built a kayak cart for my Caspia and question that $30 amount.  The wheels alone for mine cost $12 each.  Sure, I could have paid less but I wanted wheels at least 8" to make it easy to roll.     BTW, I’ve done a bit of flyfishing from my Caspia since I’ve owned it.  I had a carp on a few weeks ago that was easily over 10 pounds and pulled me all over the river.  After fighting it for almost a half an hour it finally broke me off. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

I am looking to buy a kayak that will be used on lakes and possibly rivers (calm).  I want a tandem kayak and have looked at Perceptions Keowee 2 and Jocassee.  The salesman also mentioned Wilderness Systems Pamlico and Pamlico Excel although he didn’t have any in stock at the time.  I would appreciated any info folks in the group may be able to give me concerning these kayaks.  Is there much maintenance on these rotomolded kayaks?   It has been over 20 years since I went white water rating with a tour group and as I would like to get back into shape and the wife likes water (calm) I figured a tandem kayak would be perfect.  Again thanks for any info you can give a beginner.  

Response:

" As far as Perceptions kayaks, they take a beating and keep on competing. They wear like steel and even with thousands of scratches, still handle like a dream. I have used their kayaks for over ten years in all kinds of conditions. Good Luck on your choice.                                                         DJMK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking to buy a kayak that will be used on lakes and possibly rivers (calm).  I want a tandem kayak and have looked at Perceptions Keowee 2 and Jocassee.  The salesman also mentioned Wilderness Systems Pamlico and Pamlico Excel although he didn’t have any in stock at the time.  I would appreciated any info folks in the group may be able to give me concerning these kayaks.  Is there much maintenance on these rotomolded kayaks?   It has been over 20 years since I went white water rating with a tour group and as I would like to get back into shape and the wife likes water (calm) I figured a tandem kayak would be perfect.  Again thanks for any info you can give a beginner.  

Response:

I am looking to buy a kayak that will be used on lakes and possibly rivers (calm).  I want a tandem kayak and have looked at Perceptions Keowee 2 and Jocassee.  The salesman also mentioned Wilderness Systems Pamlico and Pamlico Excel although he didn’t have any in stock at the time.  I would appreciated any info folks in the group may be able to give me concerning these kayaks.  Is there much maintenance on these rotomolded kayaks?  

I’m far from expert, but after years of mooching off my friend’s canoe I finally sprang for my own boat(s). I just purchased a Pamlico and so far have had it out once on a lake for it’s shakedown cruise. I’m pleased with it so far, it was easily handled as a single and works as a double as long as you don’t plan on packing anything. The load is 325 lbs. My wife and I don’t leave a lot to spare. It’s very nice for an adult and child. However tandem paddling with two double bladed kayak paddles is an art that we’ve not yet mastered. It was suggested and I’m tending to agree that a forward kayak paddle for power and a rear canoe paddle for rudder is an easier way to go. From what I can tell, this load is about average for the doubles; although the Pamlico Excel is about 2 ft longer and should support more weight. If you want substantially bigger loads you might consider a plain canoe. I did say boat(s) plural. We also picked up a Wilderness Systems Rascal. This is a one man kayak (200 lb load). Its design is such that it is not easily rolled. My wife seemed to really enjoy it. I even put my 9-year old in it. I got them at "Appomatox River Company" in Farmville Va. They’re in the middle of nowhere but they were extremely nice and had the biggest selection and best prices I could find. Check them out at : http://www.moonstar.com/~arc/ PGP key available from "http://www.mnsinc.com/moore"                      Dave Moore

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Question:

The talc miner in charge of the operation was reported to have said: "Now this REALLY chaps my ass" As the river was sucked into the abyss. TimW

Response:

Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the stream.  What is the update on that? -Paul

Paul, The fellow who made the original post, Sandy Pittendrigh, played a practical joke, sort of a "War of the Worlds" type deal.  Nothing happened to the Big Hole at all.  I fished it several times this season, and it was in fine shape! — Dave Kumlien Montana Troutfitters 1716 W. Main St. Bozeman, MT 59715 http://www.gomontana.com/Business/Trout/trout.html

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What about the demolition derby?!!! Sure would hate to lose that All-American event as well. Jon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wiped out the town of Dillon as well….no Labor Day rodeo this year Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the stream.  What is the update on that? -Paul

Response:

Wiped out the town of Dillon as well….no Labor Day rodeo this year – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the stream.  What is the update on that? -Paul

Response:

Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the stream.  What is the update on that?

The leak was plugged by the thousands of refugee beavers fleeing Sandy’s Montana estate. — -Wayne Trzyna

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For a few minutes though it sure created a stir.  So much so for me I jumped in the truck and drop two hours to be sure if it was there or not. So, was it still there, and if it is, how much talc is in the water? Have the browns become "whitefish?" Charlie Quinton Laramie, Wyoming

I just fished the Big Hole last weekend and found the sub-terranian section to be especially productive.  The best pattern was a blind cave shrimp imitation. Hell of a boat ride though. Don Kelly Butte  MT

Response:

Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the stream.  What is the update on that? -Paul

Hi Paul, That story was a joke/hoax.  For a few minutes though it sure created a stir.  So much so for me I jumped in the truck and drop two hours to be sure if it was there or not. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

For a few minutes though it sure created a stir.  So much so for me I jumped in the truck and drop two hours to be sure if it was there or not.

So, was it still there, and if it is, how much talc is in the water? Have the browns become "whitefish?" Charlie Quinton Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the stream.  What is the update on that? -Paul

Response:

: Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the : talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the : stream.  What is the update on that? A few weeks ago, it reappeared above ground, forming a new branch of DePuy’s Spring Creek. But I don’t know how the piranhas got in there. — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

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Question:

: Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any non-USCG approved PFD here in : California while boating or watersking, and is likely to be in other states.   I would have to disagree with you on this one, Pat.  If you could point me at some written source of this, I would greatly appreciate it, because it certainly is too bizarre to be true.   I could believe that it is illegal to water ski without an approved life jacket being worn.  But it CANT be illegal to simply wear a PDF that is not approved while boating.   First off, what is the definition of a PFD?  ( I know, it is a personal floatation device).  My bathing suit is not an approved PDF, does that make it illegal to wear?   OK, that was a smart ass answer.  How about a wet suit?  It floats, but is not approved.  Am I breaking your law by wearing my wetsuit while sitting in the ski boat?   How about my SOS suspenders?  Do I really break a law when I put these on?  Does your law really prefer me to wear nothing at all over a non approved floatation device?   I don’t think so.   There are situations that may require a life jacket to be worn. Water skiing may be one of them, but I am not sure.  But there is no requirement for an adult to wear a life jacket in a boat.  There has to be an approved life jacket for him, it doesn’t need to be worn. And putting on a wet suit, or an inflatable device, or even a ski belt shouldn’t be any legal problem.   You might be confusing a rule that was enacted rather recently.  I forget the actual wording, but I believe that it required *children* under a certain age (I think it was 12) to wear an approved life jacket whenever the boat was underway *unless* any of a whole bunch of exceptions.  The exceptions included being in an enclosed cabin or being tethered.   Rod McInnis

Response:

i live on a lake and use skibelts for just swimming around.  i don’t, and don’t allow visitors to swim unless they wear some type of floatation.  since we don’t jump or play any water sports here, the skibelts are nice to just float in the water off of the dock.  i really dislike having vests riding up under my armpits. so i like to keep skibelts around.  but i’m having difficult times finding them too and i suspect soon i won’t be able to find any.  last i looked, E&B Marine still carried some inexpensive ones.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, but there is a misperception here – a very common one, I’m afraid. Whether or not a device is "Coast Guard Approved" has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you can us it as a *recreational* boater. However in order for a personal flotation device to "count" towards fullfilling the number of PFD’s which must be carried on any particular boat, that PFD must be Coast Guard Approved, in good condition, and of the proper size for its intended wearer. It is *not* illegal to carry non-approved pfd’s on your boat, nor is it illegal for you to *wear* them. Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any

non-USCG approved PFD here in California while boating or watersking, and is likely to be in other

states.  You know, Rev. its not a good idea to split hairs on safety devices, particularily one as

dangerous as this one.  You see these belts hold a person face down it the water making them useless on

an unconsciencious or disoriented person.  I could not recommend to anyone where to buy one

nor allow anyone to wear one on my boat.  My comments to the original poster was about these ski

belts only, no other device was mentioned.

<snippers Pat Registered Nurse former Aviation Life Support Equipment maintainance supervisor U.S. Army Reserve — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything"  PH

I’m afraid that I still have to stand by my original statement regarding the legality/illegality of wearing non-USCG approved PFD’s, including ski belts. There are two "sets" of law in California which deal with the wearing of life jackets: the first is the Charter Boat Safety Act, which empowers (and requires) the Captain of commercial vessels to order passengers into life jackets under particular conditions; the second, which is the one with which we are concerned at the moment, is the Harbours and Navigation Code, Section 658.3: "658.3.  (a) No person shall operate a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel that is 26 feet or less in length unless every person on board who is six years of age or less is wearing a type I, II, or III Coast Guard-approved personal flotation device while that motorboat, sailboat, or vessel is underway.    (b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to a person operating a sailboat on which a person who is six years of age or less is restrained by a harness tethered to the vessel, or to a person operating a vessel on which a person who is six years of age or less is in an enclosed cabin.    (c) Subdivision (a) does not apply to a person operating a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel if the operator is reacting to an emergency rescue situation.    (d) The following definitions govern the construction of this section:    (1) "Enclosed cabin" means a space on board a vessel that is surrounded by bulkheads and covered by a roof.    (2) "Operate a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel" means to be in control or in charge of a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel while it is underway.    (3) "Underway" means all times except when the motorboat, sailboat, or vessel is anchored, moored, or aground.    (e) A violation of this section is an infraction punishable as provided in subdivision (a) of Section 668." Nothing in this section can be construed as to forbid the wearing of non-approved floatation devices, as requiring a person to wear an approved device is not the same as forbidding the wearing of an unapproved one, nor is the wearing of PFD’s by anyone over the age of six addressed in any way. An exhaustive search of all current California State Law failed to turn up any other section which would forbid persons aged 21 or under from wearing  non-approved PFD’s. So while these ski belts may, indeed, be dangerous in some situations, it is not illegal for anyone to wear them. Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis

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:Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any non-USCG :approved PFD here in :California while boating or watersking Must be some interesting wording to that legislation. Lets see, my wetsuit offers a little boyancy, is it illegal to wear because its not an approved PFD? I guess its illegal to wear something which isn’t a PFD but *sombody* might think *is* a PFD? — george  

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:To live is to risk harm – some people enjoy taking risks and derive a :great deal of pleasure from putting themselves into harms way. Whether or :not I agree with the wisdom of such risk-taking is irrelevant – to impose :society’s will upon them and declare that they have a duty to avoid all :risk is highly immoral and violates the right of self-determination to :which all people are entitled. you know I agree completely, and I’ve said as much on many ocasions. I dont know what came over me to propose such a thing.. — george  

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snippers : If one follows this argument to its logical conclusion, then PFD’s should : be required by law for *all* water activities, including surfing, : fly-fishing, hot-tubbing and even swimming.   I wouldn’t follow it to that conclusion.  George’s statement was in regards to water skiing, not boating.  I might extend the thinking to any boating type activity where the person can expect to get dumped violently into the water, such as skiing, wind surfing, riding a PWC, etc.     Rod McInnis

But my comment was not directed at the wisdom of wearing PFD’s during any particular activity, rather whether or not such wearing of PFD’s should be a matter of legislation. Is it smart to wear a PFD anytime you go into the water? Of course – you never knows when you might slip and fall, particularly when dealing with slippery wet rocks such as one finds in trout streams. Does this then mean that you should be *forced at gunpoint* (for such is the actual implication of such legisation) to wear a PFD during this activity? The risk of drowning is every bit as real as it is during boating, and possibly even greater than the risk of drowning while waterskiing, since while waterskiing rescue is readily available and one actually expects to fall down from time to time. To live is to risk harm – some people enjoy taking risks and derive a great deal of pleasure from putting themselves into harms way. Whether or not I agree with the wisdom of such risk-taking is irrelevant – to impose society’s will upon them and declare that they have a duty to avoid all risk is highly immoral and violates the right of self-determination to which all people are entitled. Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis

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Sorry, but there is a misperception here – a very common one, I’m afraid. Whether or not a device is "Coast Guard Approved" has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you can us it as a *recreational* boater. However in order for a personal flotation device to "count" towards fullfilling the number of PFD’s which must be carried on any particular boat, that PFD must be Coast Guard Approved, in good condition, and of the proper size for its intended wearer. It is *not* illegal to carry non-approved pfd’s on your boat, nor is it illegal for you to *wear* them.

Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any non-USCG approved PFD here in California while boating or watersking, and is likely to be in other states.  You know, Rev. its not a good idea to split hairs on safety devices, particularily one as dangerous as this one.  You see these belts hold a person face down it the water making them useless on an unconsciencious or disoriented person.  I could not recommend to anyone where to buy one nor allow anyone to wear one on my boat.  My comments to the original poster was about these ski belts only, no other device was mentioned.      We know that USCG until recently had not approved the automatic inflatable type one life vest, but that was due to an argument over how to inspect them for functionality.  These vests are arguably the safest available because they are relatively comfortable and provide the most bouyancy of any vest sold in most stores. If I have two adults on my boat, I must carry two adult size Coast Guard Approved PFD’s (type I, II, or III), plus one type IV. Whatever *else* I carry, whether Coast Guard Approved or not, is entirely up to my discretion. My husband and I both have SOSpenders which are our primary personal flotation devices. While our SOSpenders are superiour to other PFD’s in every respect, they do not count toward fulfilling our requirement. Therefore we have two adult type I PFD’s to cover our personal requirement, four adult type III’s, two small type I’s, and several type IV’s, which brings us up to and beyond the requirements for our boat as we will not sail with an out-of-balance PFD-to-person ratio.

Pat Registered Nurse former Aviation Life Support Equipment maintainance supervisor U.S. Army Reserve — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything"  PH

Response:

 I have been trying to find a source for these types of laws, because I have several questions regarding what is "legal" and what is just strongly recommended.  For example, does the law really say that a life jacket MUST he *worn* while skiing?  If so, I would sure like to see how that is worded.

As best as I can find it is legislated at the state level.  In NC you must wear a CG approved flotation device while skiing, etc only if there is not a designated spotter other than the boat driver.  If you’ve got a spotter then nothing or a belt is ok.  I have both and many of the adults prefer the belt but I tell the kids they have to wear the jacket. As to a source, the discount catalogs have them.  Around here Walmart has them and Boaters Discount World, a boat store chain also have them. They’re $7-$9. Lawrence…….

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|   I wouldn’t follow it to that conclusion.  George’s statement was in | regards to water skiing, not boating.  I might extend the thinking to | any boating type activity where the person can expect to get dumped | violently into the water, such as skiing, wind surfing, riding a PWC, | etc.   … or riding in a boat.  You never know what you’ll run into, or what will run into you.  Many folks where seatbelts in their car, for the same reason. — Bob Wood                                                       ascom Nexion                                                        phone:  508-266-2350

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: : :They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in : :most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and : :should never be used on a human. : : we used one back in the 70’s. At that time they were not CG approved, : which meant they didn’t count in your PFD tally on the boat, : but there was no requirment that a skier wear an approved PFD. : I’ve never heard of a change in that situation, but I wouldn’t : be suprised if there now is a PFD requirement for skiers (possably : by the states) . Obviously there should be..I remember taking spills : and slipping right out of the belts. : : : — : george   : : : If one follows this argument to its logical conclusion, then PFD’s should : be required by law for *all* water activities, including surfing, : fly-fishing, hot-tubbing and even swimming.   I wouldn’t follow it to that conclusion.  George’s statement was in regards to water skiing, not boating.  I might extend the thinking to any boating type activity where the person can expect to get dumped violently into the water, such as skiing, wind surfing, riding a PWC, etc.     Rod McInnis

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: Does anyone know of a source for used (or new) ski belt life : preservers?…I’ve heard that they are no longer "legal?" :   : Don Land   Why on Earth do you want one?   I always enjoyed giving the girls the ski belt because of the increased likelyhood that they would lose their bathing suit top.  :-)   But they are just not a good idea.  I doubt that they would be Coast Guard approved as a life jacket, since they have no tendency to right an unconccious wearer.  In fact, I remember taking a fall wearing one of those and having it slip down to my knees!  Definately not a perferred position!   Rod McInnis

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They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and should never be used on a human. Pat — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything"  PH

Sorry, but there is a misperception here – a very common one, I’m afraid. Whether or not a device is "Coast Guard Approved" has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you can us it as a *recreational* boater. However in order for a personal flotation device to "count" towards fullfilling the number of PFD’s which must be carried on any particular boat, that PFD must be Coast Guard Approved, in good condition, and of the proper size for its intended wearer. It is *not* illegal to carry non-approved pfd’s on your boat, nor is it illegal for you to *wear* them. If I have two adults on my boat, I must carry two adult size Coast Guard Approved PFD’s (type I, II, or III), plus one type IV. Whatever *else* I carry, whether Coast Guard Approved or not, is entirely up to my discretion. My husband and I both have SOSpenders which are our primary personal flotation devices. While our SOSpenders are superiour to other PFD’s in every respect, they do not count toward fulfilling our requirement. Therefore we have two adult type I PFD’s to cover our personal requirement, four adult type III’s, two small type I’s, and several type IV’s, which brings us up to and beyond the requirements for our boat as we will not sail with an out-of-balance PFD-to-person ratio.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in :most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and :should never be used on a human. we used one back in the 70’s. At that time they were not CG approved, which meant they didn’t count in your PFD tally on the boat, but there was no requirment that a skier wear an approved PFD. I’ve never heard of a change in that situation, but I wouldn’t be suprised if there now is a PFD requirement for skiers (possably by the states) . Obviously there should be..I remember taking spills and slipping right out of the belts. — george    

If one follows this argument to its logical conclusion, then PFD’s should be required by law for *all* water activities, including surfing, fly-fishing, hot-tubbing and even swimming. Don’t get me wrong – I think that life vests are extremely useful items and I wouldn’t dream of going sailing without them. But this nanny-state attitude has *really* got to stop. I do not defer responsibility for my own life to the State, nor will I allow that responsibility to be taken from me by force by meddling do-gooders. Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis

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:They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in :most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and :should never be used on a human. we used one back in the 70’s. At that time they were not CG approved, which meant they didn’t count in your PFD tally on the boat, but there was no requirment that a skier wear an approved PFD. I’ve never heard of a change in that situation, but I wouldn’t be suprised if there now is a PFD requirement for skiers (possably by the states) . Obviously there should be..I remember taking spills and slipping right out of the belts. — george  

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: They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in : most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and : should never be used on a human. : Pat   Are you sure that they are "illegal"?   I am pretty sure that they no longer qualify as a type three life saving device.  But that doesn’t make them illegal, they just don’t count.   I have been trying to find a source for these types of laws, because I have several questions regarding what is "legal" and what is just strongly recommended.   For example, does the law really say that a life jacket MUST he *worn* while skiing?   If so, I would sure like to see how that is worded.   Barefoot water skiiers tend to *not* wear the Coast Guard approved life jackets.  Instead, a wet suit is worn (even in warm water).   The reason is simple, taking a fall barefooting will rip most jackets right off your body.  And I can tell you that it doesn’t feel too good to have a life jacket ripped off.   If you wear a wet suit, and keep your body lines smooth, you will skim across the surface of the water.  The special "barefoot" suits have extra padding on the seat (what you try to fall on) and chest (which is what hits when you "trip").   They provide plenty of floatation, but are not an approved life jacket.   Another place where life jackets are rarely worn are trick skiers. The jacket impedes thier motion, and the competition seems to be as much on swim suit fashion as anything else.   Rod McInnis

Response:

They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and should never be used on a human. Pat — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything"  PH

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Does anyone know of a source for used (or new) ski belt life preservers?…I’ve heard that they are no longer "legal?" Don Land

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Question:

As a last resort he started to dog paddle,and managed to get enough air (and a bit of water)in his lungs to keep going.He managed to make it to shore. I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ last restort: a wet exit.  I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), pull my feet out, and exit the tube.  Anyone see a problem with this assumption? Wet exits are the one and only facet of kayaking I’m proficient at, having had lots of practice while trying to learn to roll.

I for one am going to take my tube out in the lake in a controlled situation and flip it until I am comfortable with this "wet exit". I didnt even realize flipping my tube was possible- It’s pretty wide. You got my attention! Jack Jack Wheeler

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Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. is there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer?

You know, it wasn’t till several hours after I read this comment that it occured to me how offensive it is.  Why is it that every time somebody hurts themself we assume it is someone else’s fault? Sue the float tube manufacturer?  Come on.  Do you really think the float tube is to blame? — -Wayne Trzyna

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On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube Sheesh: you write a post like that to a group consisting of thousands of

… paragraph of inappropriate sarcasm deleted … know? Geez, I mean I might have to put off buying that new  reel I want for a whole month or so but I think I could swing it….

You insensitive bastard.  I gather no one will shed a tear when your tube flips. Bob Luneski

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. is there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer? You know, it wasn’t till several hours after I read this comment that it occured to me how offensive it is.  Why is it that every time somebody hurts themself we assume it is someone else’s fault? Sue the float tube manufacturer?  Come on.  Do you really think the float tube is to blame? — -Wayne Trzyna

Wayne has a good point, unless of course the manufacurer designed a tube that would obviously flip under normal operation. i.e. shaped like a kayak.  If an angler choses to forego a PFD and drowns because the tube completely deflated before going ashore, then too bad. (Which is a different circumstance than the subject victim) I personally limit my use of the float tube to calm still waters on small lakes with land very accessible.  I view my tube as the "only" option as a boat on a small pond or lake where a regular boat would be less intimate.  Larger waters require a normal boat or even a pram, a tube is not viewed as my "poor man’s boat".  No white water adventures here because no fish is worth my life. My condolences to the familiy of the unfortunate angler. — Howard

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Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. is there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer? You know, it wasn’t till several hours after I read this comment that it occured to me how offensive it is.  Why is it that every time somebody hurts themself we assume it is someone else’s fault? Sue the float tube manufacturer?  Come on.  Do you really think the float tube is to blame?

If it was a manufacturing or design defect, then yes, there is every right to sue, provided that it was being used as intended. It might very well be a design which places the rider COG too high…the lawsuit might 1) get it fixed and 2) save more lives. Something that seems really ludicrous to me is the price of some of the tubes…like Browning…around $50…imagine that, really, something for $50 that has such serious implications, a $50 boat. Hmmmm…boggles the mind…freaking fly line costs more… TimW

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Wheee!

If you can maintain this attitude, you will survive the flip. — -Wayne Trzyna

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: I have spent many an hour in a float tube ,and I must tell you : that I am amazed that anyone has had one flip over on them????? It _CAN_ be done!!  I have not managed to do so yet, but there have been times where I leaned way over the side of tube to reach for a snagged line. I would have the opposite side of the tube lift out of the water and start to roll. I am only about 175#, but I used to flip truck tire tubes in the pool when I was a kid by leaning on one side of them. There were times when I had to worry about this, but they are several pounds

ago. My COG is pretty safely placed, now.   I did flip once, getting into the water, because I was careless, and tried to walk forward rather than back.  Really scary for about 10 seconds.  I am really careful, now. I have to say, seems like the carrying straps add to the danger.  I don’t use them.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I have spent many an hour in a float tube ,and I must tell you : that I am amazed that anyone has had one flip over on them????? It _CAN_ be done!!  I have not managed to do so yet, but there have been times where I leaned way over the side of tube to reach for a snagged line. I would have the opposite side of the tube lift out of the water and start to roll. I am only about 175#, but I used to flip truck tire tubes in the pool when I was a kid by leaning on one side of them. The trick is to stay reasonably centered and keep your butt in the water. Even when I get a big wake from a boat, I easily stay upright and ride it out. Wheee! Jon Porter

In reflection, my previous post might be considered to be flippant and callous regarding the original incident.  I meant no disrespect, and extend my sympathies to the family and friends of the unfortunate tuber.

Response:

: I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ : last restort: a wet exit.  I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), : pull my feet out, and exit the tube.  Anyone see a problem with this : assumption? You should be able to _drop_ out of a tube. I can get into my Caddis with the seat strap buckled while wearing fins. I figure that getting out (even upside down) should not be much harder. The trick is to keep your wits about you when the thing flips! Jon Porter

Your waders will be tough to pull under water upside down.  You might give it a try (with help nearby) and let us know how it goes.  Sobering thought being upside down with your neoprenes, all snug and airtight, waving around in the breeze.  Perhaps the open-ended tubes have more to recommend them than easy entry. John Porter, I’m truely sorry for your loss and appreciate the warning. Good fishing!  J. Rice

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With regard to an earlier post of mine to the fellow who’s brother drowned a "Bob" [Last name omitted to protect the guilty] apparently skimmed same and, thinking I was being sarcastic/insensitive, submitted a post of his own with a  few of the lines from my post he misconstrued. For the opportunity to restate the point of my original post will gladly forego asking for mea culpa from Bob for wrongful skimming/snipping me to make me sound like a bastard/calling me a bastard/etc., etc. since I also know his heart was in the right place. Thus, again: Here’s hoping the fellow who lost his brother will tell us if his brother’s two boys are in financial straits and, if so, whether and where there’s a trust fund where those of us who are interested can send something. (And oh, Bob, re your calling me a bastard: No hard feelings (Though I hope you didn’t hurt my father’s feelings, whoever he is….)

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On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago,  was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing. I hope the stream recovers… If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop me a note.

Response:

On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago,  was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing. I hope the stream recovers… If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop me a note.

I’m sorry to hear about your brother,I offer my condolences.My brother did the same thing,luckily he survied.I was to far from him to help and I just stood there in disbelief.I think he was trying to get out of the water to take a leek,and tripped on a rock and fell forward. Being a steep dropoff right next to shore he could not reach the bottom with his hand.  As a last resort he started to dog paddle,and managed to get enough air (and a bit of water)in his lungs to keep going.He managed to make it to shore.  I now fish with a floater vest or a floater collar,and so does my brother, we enjoy our fishing trips together and especially float tubing. It’s a very exciting sport and I hope you do not give it up. BTW he is my twin brother,and I don’t want to lose him. Just sharing my experience with everybody and maybe it hits home to some people. Tight lines,Frank

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On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago,  was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing…..

Sheesh: you write a post like that to a group consisting of thousands of lunatics who by definition sit around staring at their $2000 and up computertoys and fairly regularly drop $300-$500 on flyrods, $100-$400 on reels, take fly-in trips around the world, etc., etc., and you don’t tell us if the boys’ mother and you and whatever other family is involved could use a hand with the expenses of raising the boys and whether a trust fund has been set up for them and the address….? Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. is there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer?) but if they do why don’t you let us know? Geez, I mean I might have to put off buying that new  reel I want for a whole month or so but I think I could swing it….

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: On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube : over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what : made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left : two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, : moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he : loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago,  was to take his : class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered : from cattle grazing. I hope the stream recovers… : If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop : me a note. Sorry to hear of your loss. Can the tubes be flipped while leaning backwards with one arm extended to the rear and feet out in front of you? Suggestion for discussion: When diving, I wear a large dull knife strapped to my leg. This is mostly to impress the tourons. However, after having managed to get all tangled up in a monoline fishing net once, there is now a small, double-edged, very sharp, serrated (sp?) edged knife fastened to my shoulder strap. Next time I’ll leave all that equipment down there with a few quick strokes of that knife when the release buckles are all tied up. Maybe it is just me, but after a couple of emergency situations, you go prepared. When upside down in a tube, can an escape be managed with a slash to the tube and a couple cuts on shoulder straps? I know, like you don’t have enough junk hanging on your vest already. Also, there are ankle weights for divers that don’t like diving upside down. I assume tubers have these also to help paddle around? Bill

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On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died…

Rich: My sincerest condolences to you and your family… very sorry to hear this tragic news.

Response:

As a last resort he started to dog paddle,and managed to get enough air (and a bit of water)in his lungs to keep going.He managed to make it to shore.

I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ last restort: a wet exit.  I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), pull my feet out, and exit the tube.  Anyone see a problem with this assumption? Wet exits are the one and only facet of kayaking I’m proficient at, having had lots of practice while trying to learn to roll. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ last restort: a wet exit.  I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), pull my feet out, and exit the tube.  Anyone see a problem with this assumption? Wet exits are the one and only facet of kayaking I’m proficient at, having had lots of practice while trying to learn to roll.

The panic factor and 35 degree water might be a problem with this assumption.  Keeping your wits about you would be difficult.  I assume you practiced rolling your kayak under somewhat controlled conditions.  I never practiced flipping my tube. Does a PFD really help if you are flipped over.  Will it keep your head up when the tube is flipped over and your legs are pointed to the sky, or will it keep you from flipping in the first place?.  Just curious if anyone has experienced a flip while wearing a life jacket. John

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: I have spent many an hour in a float tube ,and I must tell you : that I am amazed that anyone has had one flip over on them????? It _CAN_ be done!!  I have not managed to do so yet, but there have been times where I leaned way over the side of tube to reach for a snagged line. I would have the opposite side of the tube lift out of the water and start to roll. I am only about 175#, but I used to flip truck tire tubes in the pool when I was a kid by leaning on one side of them. The trick is to stay reasonably centered and keep your butt in the water. Even when I get a big wake from a boat, I easily stay upright and ride it out. Wheee! Jon Porter

Response:

: I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ : last restort: a wet exit.  I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), : pull my feet out, and exit the tube.  Anyone see a problem with this : assumption? You should be able to _drop_ out of a tube. I can get into my Caddis with the seat strap buckled while wearing fins. I figure that getting out (even upside down) should not be much harder. The trick is to keep your wits about you when the thing flips! Jon Porter

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I have spent many an hour in a float tube ,and I must tell you that I am amazed that anyone has had one flip over on them?????

Response:

First for safety I would say we need to wear PFD’s of some type.  Second we should never be without a good readily available knife.  Third it isn’t a bad Idea to try to flip one with a friend present and try a water exit. Not panicing is probably the key.  Neoprene waders are very bouyant and can hinder a water exit plus they are cumbersome.

Response:

If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop me a note.

I find that the lower I set my self in the tube the better control I have over it  This may take away some of my casting ability but I feel safer. Condolences on your loss

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On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago,  was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing…..

   First of all, let me say I’m very sorry for your loss.    This should be a heads-up for float-tubers and anyone thinking about buying one.  A friend of mine flipped his in the Green River and fortunately was able to right himself in shallow water while I watched helplessly from fifty yards away.  He is 6′2" and 250 lbs and was in a Browning tube which is way too small and carries you way too high, especially if you are his size.  He will never use that tube again.  In the same year a boy drowned in that river when his tube flipped.  Tubing in rivers is especially dangerous because the current can make it even more difficult than it already is to free yourself from a flipped tube, not to mention hazards like rocks.  If you flip, don’t try to right yourself.  Try to remain calm and just swim out.    For what it’s worth, I have a Caddis tube.  It is about the largest diameter tube I have ever seen and I sit quite low in it.  I am 6′ and 170 lbs. and I don’t think I could flip it if I tried unless I was standing in very shallow water.  I also always wear a lifevest. -alan

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On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago,  was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing. I hope the stream recovers… If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop me a note.

Tragic.  Deepest, deepest condolences. You did not mention the use of a life jacket.  Was your brother wearing one ? TW

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On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon.  

        (Snip) Sheesh: you write a post like that to a group consisting of thousands of

lunatics who by definition sit around staring at their $2000 and up computertoys and fairly regularly drop $300-$500 on flyrods, $100-$400 on reels, take fly-in trips around the world, etc., etc., and you don’t tell us if the boys’ mother and you and whatever other family is involved could use a hand with the expenses of raising the boys and whether a trust fund has been set up for them and the address….? Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. if there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer?) but if they do why don’t you let us know? Geez, I mean I might have to put off buying that new   reel I want for a whole month or so but I think I could swing it….

        Well, . very crass, but I think your heart is in the right place. I think its a super idea. If, after they recover some from the shock of their loss, the family would accept some help from others who shared your brothers passion, I for one would be very willing to help.  

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Question:

: What about Rain-X.  It is basically Silicon based with alcohol.  It works : on winshields and I have seen it use on film projectors for similar purposes : "slickening", etc.  It doesn’t hurt the estar of the films so it might not effect : the fly line.  Any thoughts? It’s your flyline. Go ahead and try it out!  I don’t think it would be a good idea for this product. There are just too many flyline dressings out there for a similar cost. Jon Porter

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Been there, done that, works fine, no guilt (what is 1 gram of Armor-All on my line going to hurt???) Multiply that * a couple of million fly fisherpersons..

OK.  2,000 kg of Armor All in 60 Trillion gallons of water = nothing. I’m not insenstive to the need for environmental responsibility, but like everything else, it can be taken to ridiculous extremes.       Gene

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Re: armor all. I have used it for ten years and it is terrific. It still is. I havent noticed any formula change. Its especially great because its so easy to appy, so you can do it streamside if your line starts to get water logged. GREAT STUFF, and 1/4 the price of commercial dressings, some of which are decidedly "armor all-like". Dale Owens

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Anyone ever tried using Armor-all as a flyline dressing? Seems like it would help reduce the friction of the line passing through the guides…

As I recall, Armor-all is petroleum based? Read the label. If you wouldn’t douse your fly line in gasoline to clean it, don’t use it. -David Buschhorn

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Multiply that * a couple of million fly fisherpersons.. OK.  2,000 kg of Armor All in 60 Trillion gallons of water = nothing. I’m not insenstive to the need for environmental responsibility, but like everything else, it can be taken to ridiculous extremes.

I agree Gene. I posted that I used Armorall a couple of days ago and got a couple flames from the eco-correct crowd. I suppose they all ride their bicycles to get to their fishing holes. And I’m sure none of them use lead split shot, right? Dale

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As I recall, Armor-all is petroleum based? Read the label. If you wouldn’t douse your fly line in gasoline to clean it, don’t use it.

Uh, gee, come to think of it, your fly line is "petroleum based" too. I don’t use armor-all on my fly line for the same reason I don’t use it on my car interior.  It makes it look great for a few days, after which it dries out and looks worse than it did in the first place. — -Wayne Trzyna

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Multiply that * a couple of million fly fisherpersons.. OK.  2,000 kg of Armor All in 60 Trillion gallons of water = nothing. I’m not insenstive to the need for environmental responsibility, but like everything else, it can be taken to ridiculous extremes. I agree Gene. I posted that I used Armorall a couple of days ago and got a couple flames from the eco-correct crowd. I suppose they all ride their bicycles to get to their fishing holes. And I’m sure none of them use lead split shot, right? Dale

        well, dale and gene, add the voice of this southern liberal to your chorus of amazement:  how can these people be real.  the  enemy is their republican congressman, not someone who uses amorall on their fly line, auto, hat, or ass.         a. wayne harrison

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Anyone ever tried using Armor-all as a flyline dressing? Seems like it would help reduce the friction of the line passing through the guides… (may not be too environmental-friendly though) — Lockheed Martin EIS Orlando, FL

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 Armor-all as a flyline dressing? No, Frank, not yet, but I use it on my rods.  It prevents  the ‘grabbing & dragging’ of mono in the rain and seems to improve casting accuracy. Grant

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: Anyone ever tried using Armor-all as a flyline dressing? Seems like it : would help reduce the friction of the line passing through the guides… This stuff is very effective as a flyline dressing. The product is a plasticizer, which is good a filling in minor cracks and scuffing on the line. It also does lube the line and make it very slippery. If you have never dressed the line before, you will see an increase in your casting distance. The line may float higher too. : (may not be too environmental-friendly though) The trick here is to buff off the excess with a clean, dry rag. When I apply the stuff to my lines, I use two coats for the first time. Let it dry, and then run it through a rag. This will remove the excess that you would otherwise see as an "oil slick" on the surface of the water. Jon Porter –If you are concerned about enviromentally friendly fishing, try products put out by Loon Outdoors. All their stuff is  earth friendly!

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Been there, done that, works fine, no guilt (what is 1 gram of Armor-All on my line going to hurt???)

Multiply that * a couple of million fly fisherpersons….. "What is 1 gram going to hurt ?" DuPont and Co. 1976 -Dan-

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Been there, done that, works fine, no guilt (what is 1 gram of Armor-All on my line going to hurt???) Multiply that * a couple of million fly fisherpersons….. -Dan-

Then divide it by 10 million miles of stream dispersing that product and factor it by the amount of gasoline you burn getting to your favorite fishing hole to see that theatrics are not a productive use of your time. Charley

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Frank Hinson) writes: Anyone ever tried using Armor-all as a flyline dressing? Seems like it would help reduce the friction of the line passing through the guides… Used to be good for fly lines, but they changed their formula a number of years ago and you don’t want to use it on your lines now.  They will work great for a short while but will crack prematurely.  With the new coatings on the lines and the new formula for Armour-all, l the plasticisers (which keep the line supple) are prematurely released out of the pvc coating causing cracks and deteriation.  Leeches the life out of your lines. "303 Protectant" is a similar product that will keep your lines slippery longer by adding plasticisers to the coatings instead of leaching them out.  You can get it by the bottle at auto parts places or in single use pads from Orvis.                                                              Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

What about Rain-X.  It is basically Silicon based with alcohol.  It works on winshields and I have seen it use on film projectors for similar purposes "slickening", etc.  It doesn’t hurt the estar of the films so it might not effect the fly line.  Any thoughts?

Response:

(Frank Hinson) writes: Anyone ever tried using Armor-all as a flyline dressing? Seems like it would help reduce the friction of the line passing through the guides…

Used to be good for fly lines, but they changed their formula a number of years ago and you don’t want to use it on your lines now.  They will work great for a short while but will crack prematurely.  With the new coatings on the lines and the new formula for Armour-all, l the plasticisers (which keep the line supple) are prematurely released out of the pvc coating causing cracks and deteriation.  Leeches the life out of your lines. "303 Protectant" is a similar product that will keep your lines slippery longer by adding plasticisers to the coatings instead of leaching them out.  You can get it by the bottle at auto parts places or in single use pads from Orvis.                                                               Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone ever tried using Armor-all as a flyline dressing? Seems like it would help reduce the friction of the line passing through the guides… (may not be too environmental-friendly though) — Lockheed Martin EIS Orlando, FL I think the guides in Florida have been using Armor-all for over 20 years. I have never tried it. I understand that armour all used to be a very popular line cleaner and dressing, however, they have apparently changed their formulation and the new stuff cause fly lines to leach.  It is best if you od not use it. Ian Scott Wishbone Custom Rods http://credit.headwaters.com/wishbone

William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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Anyone ever tried using Armor-all as a flyline dressing? Seems like it would help reduce the friction of the line passing through the guides… (may not be too environmental-friendly though)

Been there, done that, works fine, no guilt (what is 1 gram of Armor-All on my line going to hurt???)       Gene

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Anyone ever tried using Armor-all as a flyline dressing? Seems like it would help reduce the friction of the line passing through the guides… (may not be too environmental-friendly though) — Lockheed Martin EIS Orlando, FL

I understand that armour all used to be a very popular line cleaner and dressing, however, they have apparently changed their formulation and the new stuff cause fly lines to leach.  It is best if you od not use it. Ian Scott Wishbone Custom Rods http://credit.headwaters.com/wishbone

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