Question:

But Tiger had to shoot 2 under (or so it seemed) for 4 holes on Friday to get paid for the week.  Guess who got it done.  The same guy who can’t find a fairway, can’t hit a wedge the right distance, can’t sink an 8 footer, and still gets it around the course under par for the week.  He’s not a winner this week but Tiger is the most determined SOB the sport has seen since Ben Hogan. Your logic is astounding.  Are you a democrat, by any chance? Greg

What has THAT got to do with anything? I’m about as Republican as you can get, and I’ll echo Joseph: Tiger is the most determined SOB the sport has seen since Ben Hogan. Most Republicans are smart enough to realize that Joseph’s point was this: that, despite the fact that Tiger had nowhere near his "A game" this week, he really gritted it out. When it was crunch time late in Friday’s round and he was in danger of missing the cut, he found a way to get the job done. Say, you’re not a Perotista, are you, Greg?  :-) Ray Pezzi

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Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it? I’d like to have seen Tiger on the last green – unfortuantely for him, Phil was 13 strokes better The point was that when Tiger has a chance to win, he usually converts. Winners find a way to win. Losers find a way to lose.

Yse, but first you have to have a chance to win.  My point is that Phil outplayed Tiger and yet somehow Phil is a loser.  Yes, Tiger has had big wins in the past, but this weekend he wasn’t even close to Phil.  Is Tiger a loser for the way he played this weekend or does he get special dispensation due to past victories?  People will say that Lowery played great golf and that Katayama played great golf but that a guy who was better than either of them played crappy golf, is a loser, etc.  Why is it superior to finish at -10 than at -14? They were not good enough to get that close to Toms so therefore they aren’t chokers – they are fine golfers. Let me get this straight – Phil Mickelson is a much better golfer than anybody else and whenever he loses it is because he chokes.  He could have kicked Tiger’s butt in the Masters but he choked.  Tiger is not capable of  outplaying Mickelson, its just that Mickelson cannot summon up his superior talent because he doesn’t have the killer instinct.  Is this what we are supposed to believe? Tiger missed a short put on the back nine in the Masters.  Question:  was that a choke?  Toms missed two short put on Sunday – were they chokes?  Nobody is willing to say it at the time it is made.  Once the tournament is over it is obvious – no, they weren’t chokes because the guy who missed the put won the tournament.  Had he lost, they might then have said that it was a choke.  Lovely standard – let’s wait for the final score and then we will look back at each mishap and refer to it as a choke if it happened to the loser and an obstacle from which the winner battled back heroically.  Phil has 19 victories but everybody harps about the lack of a major.  How does he keep from choking in those tournaments?  I know, they aren’t majors and so they don’t count.  Even if he beats many of the same golfers (including Tiger) he still sucks.  Let’s face it – if Phil had shot a 59 and Toms shot a 60 people would still call Phil a choker because he didn’t win. Maybe he and Monty will get in a playoff in a major then someone will have to win and no matter what happens the loser will be called a choker. (don’t laugh – the Oakland Raiders and the Minnesota Vikings went to a Super Bowl with both of them having the reputation of not being able to win the big one).

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In that case, given Woods’ current level of play, I believe that Woods would have missed the putt. If Woods was playing up to his best level, he may have made the putt. However, we’ll never know, will we? You are probably asking whether it is Tiger or Phil who has more of a killer instinct. If that’s the case, then why don’t you simply find the right words? There is no need to be sarcastic towards me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, my question was what would’ve happened had Tiger been there in Phil’s place.  The fact that Tiger wasn’t there is obvious and irrelevant. If I ask you if you think you could make a 2-foot putt to win The Masters, it makes no sense to answer, "But I’d never have a 2-foot putt to win The Masters." Look up "hypothetical."

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Tiger would have hit the ball closer to the hole from the fairway. That’s the difference between the guy who’s won every major and the guy who hasn’t won one yet but still doesn’t want to be hitting 4 from the other side of the water.  The fact that Phil didn’t hit his approach 6 feet from the hole is the best evidence yet that his mindset has started to change.  Unfortunately he needed the old Phil for that one last full swing today.   -joseph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it? Neither – goes long, but makes the 4 footer coming back.

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But Tiger had to shoot 2 under (or so it seemed) for 4 holes on Friday to get paid for the week.  Guess who got it done.  The same guy who can’t find a fairway, can’t hit a wedge the right distance, can’t sink an 8 footer, and still gets it around the course under par for the week.  He’s not a winner this week but Tiger is the most determined SOB the sport has seen since Ben Hogan.

Your logic is astounding.  Are you a democrat, by any chance? Greg

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Tiger would have put his second shot to within 3 feet. He then would have missed the bird as is his current norm. Before being dumped by women twice in succession he woulda had a better shot.

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I tell ya, it’s in the eyes.  It’s in the mind.  When Tiger is in position to win, and he needs that 30 footer to win, you can see it in his eyes.  You wouldn’t bet against him.  He *knows* its going in.  Call it focus.  Call it determination.  Call it "brining it up a level".  It’s when its all on the line – he *has* no doubts.  *If* he fails, he’s pissed – at himself, at the golf gods.  It would never enter his mind that he might end up in 2nd place. Not that hang-dog defeated "not again" look. Tiger hasn’t had that look in his eyes this year.  The fact that he’s one of the best golfers to ever live has allowed him to win a few, even a major – without that in-the-zone focus for 4 days.  Maybe it’s burn out from last year, or the media hype, or distraction from his million dollar other interests, or fly fishing with Mark.  Or maybe its his plan to just play bad enough to undo the hype for a while… who knows.  But *that* Tiger, the one who stares it down, hasn’t been on the course much. Phil on the other hand, always has that "please God" look when he’s up against it.  I know that look.  I live that look on the course (of course without the raw talent that Phil *does* have). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it? I’d like to have seen Tiger on the last green – unfortuantely for him, Phil was 13 strokes better The point was that when Tiger has a chance to win, he usually converts. Winners find a way to win. Losers find a way to lose.

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Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it? Tiger would’ve made the put on 16 so he would never have gotten in the situation, but saying he didn’t… nothing but the bottom of the cup.

He sure the hell wouldn’t have left that 7-iron 45 feet short on 16 !! And if he had, he wouldn’t have listened to some drunken idiots telling him it was slow coming up the slope….. Annika, was that you ???

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The point was that when Tiger has a chance to win, he usually converts.

Three 3-putts on the first day of a PGA tourney and you find it hard to have any chance to be around on the weekend.  From what I saw of him on Thursday, you could have putted better than Tiger. Also remember that Tiger is quite tough on one-to-one battles when he gets in position.  Remember those USGA titles and last year’s PGA. Winners find a way to win. Losers find a way to lose.

Looks like Phil beat a long list of guys and lost to one.  To me the bottom line is that Duval (and I expect Phil) thought that 16 under would win.  Phil left two strokes out on the course he got the other days – perhaps the course harden up a little. Cheers, Mike

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I agree that visually, Tiger seems to have  more "killer instinct" compared to Phil (and I’d bet money that this is true). However, it’s hard to believe that Phil really thinks in the manner you describe below (but I understand what you are saying based on his facial expressions). I doubt that Phil would not have gotten as far as he has w/o a very strong desire to win. That said, what do I or anyone of us here know. Only Mickelson knows. No matter what we think about this subject, the best arbiter will be the test of time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I tell ya, it’s in the eyes.  It’s in the mind.  When Tiger is in position to win, and he needs that 30 footer to win, you can see it in his eyes. You wouldn’t bet against him.  He *knows* its going in.  Call it focus.  Call it determination.  Call it "brining it up a level".  It’s when its all on the line – he *has* no doubts.  *If* he fails, he’s pissed – at himself, at the golf gods.  It would never enter his mind that he might end up in 2nd place. Not that hang-dog defeated "not again" look. Tiger hasn’t had that look in his eyes this year.  The fact that he’s one of the best golfers to ever live has allowed him to win a few, even a major – without that in-the-zone focus for 4 days.  Maybe it’s burn out from last year, or the media hype, or distraction from his million dollar other interests, or fly fishing with Mark.  Or maybe its his plan to just play bad enough to undo the hype for a while… who knows.  But *that* Tiger, the one who stares it down, hasn’t been on the course much. Phil on the other hand, always has that "please God" look when he’s up against it.  I know that look.  I live that look on the course (of course without the raw talent that Phil *does* have).

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By your definition, Tiger is a loser? I disagree. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Winners find a way to win. Losers find a way to lose.

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But Tiger had to shoot 2 under (or so it seemed) for 4 holes on Friday to get paid for the week.  Guess who got it done.  The same guy who can’t find a fairway, can’t hit a wedge the right distance, can’t sink an 8 footer, and still gets it around the course under par for the week.  He’s not a winner this week but Tiger is the most determined SOB the sport has seen since Ben Hogan.   -joseph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it? But Tiger WASN’T in his place.

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Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it?

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Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it?

But Tiger WASN’T in his place.

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Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it?

Tiger would’ve made the put on 16 so he would never have gotten in the situation, but saying he didn’t… nothing but the bottom of the cup.

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Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it?

I’d like to have seen Tiger on the last green – unfortuantely for him, Phil was 13 strokes better

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Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it?

Or put a putting machine in either of their places and let it make the putt once.  Don’t change anything and see if it goes in again. Joseph

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Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it? But Tiger WASN’T in his place.

No shit.

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Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it? I’d like to have seen Tiger on the last green – unfortuantely for him, Phil was 13 strokes better

The point was that when Tiger has a chance to win, he usually converts. Winners find a way to win. Losers find a way to lose.

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Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it?

Neither – goes long, but makes the 4 footer coming back.

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: Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. : Does he come up short or does he make it? He comes up short, probably, from there. The difference is that Tiger would have snuggled that approach closer. cb

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The way Tiger has played lately…….he misses too, but gets an angry look on his face like it was his caddies fault that he missed it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. : Does he come up short or does he make it? He comes up short, probably, from there. The difference is that Tiger would have snuggled that approach closer. cb

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Put Tiger on the last green in Phil’s place. Does he come up short or does he make it? I’d like to have seen Tiger on the last green – unfortuantely for him, Phil was 13 strokes better The point was that when Tiger has a chance to win, he usually converts. Winners find a way to win. Losers find a way to lose.

Winners find a way to be playing at the last hole when they CAN win.  Losers watch on TV.

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But Tiger WASN’T in his place. No sh**. "Annika", you’ve answered your own question.

No, my question was what would’ve happened had Tiger been there in Phil’s place.  The fact that Tiger wasn’t there is obvious and irrelevant. If I ask you if you think you could make a 2-foot putt to win The Masters, it makes no sense to answer, "But I’d never have a 2-foot putt to win The Masters." Look up "hypothetical."

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"Annika", you’ve answered your own question. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But Tiger WASN’T in his place. No sh**.

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Question:

I snuck out of the room a bit before 4am today, 400 miles and 6 hours later I was home, and now am at work. I don’t have time to write a report now, but will do so soon. We all had a great time and lot’s of nice fish to go around…it was real cool to meet all the people who showed up. More will follow, JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

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Sometimes life just aint fair. They get to fish and miss muskie’s posts as well.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I snuck out of the room a bit before 4am today, 400 miles and 6 hours later I was home, and now am at work. I don’t have time to write a report now, but will do so soon. We all had a great time and lot’s of nice fish to go around…it was real cool to meet all the people who showed up. More will follow, JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

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….More will follow…..

Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button

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Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button

Forty…I know its Forty.  Now, who am I supposed to collect that dozen flys from? — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

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Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button Forty…I know its Forty.  Now, who am I supposed to collect that dozen flys from?

If they actually got into it, I suspect the real winner had the iodine and BandAid concession.  My guess it never came to anything, so it’d be who ever had closest to "415" in the "How many times will each one say ‘no, you first’ before _everyone_ falls asleep" pool. TC, R

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I wish I had time to recount the activities in question, but I’m late….. Danl (the white rabbit) PS Lots of nice fish, great company, and a great job by Bruce Hopper on the organizational side. Y’all shoudda been dere!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ….More will follow….. Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button

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I wish I had time to recount the activities in question, but I’m late….. Danl (the white rabbit)

thought…..wonder if we should call the arlo…….    :( Wolfgang

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: More will follow, Sorry, still busy, I thought I might have time today, but hopefully tomorrow morning…as for what this thread morphed into, I will not address that ’cause clave reports ought to be about the positives, not some imaginary negatives that people are playing up… JonCook.

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: More will follow, Sorry, still busy, I thought I might have time today, but hopefully tomorrow morning…as for what this thread morphed into, I will not address that ’cause clave reports ought to be about the positives, not some imaginary negatives that people are playing up…

Curses, abashed again!    :) Wolfgang comfortable in the assumption that the blood letting was restricted to cold blooded species

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: More will follow, Sorry, still busy, I thought I might have time today, but hopefully tomorrow morning…as for what this thread morphed into, I will not address that ’cause clave reports ought to be about the positives, not some imaginary negatives that people are playing up… JonCook.

        wtf, jon, are you *really* the incarnate soul of tinker bell?         just curious.  my kids might want a couple autographed photos. wayno

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: More will follow, Sorry, still busy, I thought I might have time today, but hopefully tomorrow morning…as for what this thread morphed into, I will not address that ’cause clave reports ought to be about the positives, not some imaginary negatives that people are playing up… Curses, abashed again!    :) Wolfgang comfortable in the assumption that the blood letting was restricted to cold blooded species

Well, we’ve heard from Forty… /daytripper (rw? hallooooooo rw?)

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Well since there were four of us that made predictions (myself, Petah, Tripper and Wayne) I’ll ante up 1/3 the flies. Wayne, email me your address and I’ll tie some for you. Petah, Tripper, We fucked up we trusted Louie. Louie, tell us you at least got wet. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button Forty…I know its Forty.  Now, who am I supposed to collect that dozen flys from? — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

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Jon, You got back a little before I did and beat me to it.  Now are you going to say just who was it that: 1.  Had horrible plane connections coming and going because of the mid-western (read Chicago) weather? 2.  Whose luggage was lost; at least overnight? 3.  Whose commode got stopped up? 4.  Who fell in the river and got completely wet? 5.  Who buried a hook in their hand?  Yes, it was a #24 6.  Whose beer still had active yeast in it? days. 8.  What the average daily temperature was? 9.  Whose looking forward to the next Clave? 10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we really should have been fishing) group is really looking forward to the next Clave? Need I go on? Bob in El Paso – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I snuck out of the room a bit before 4am today, 400 miles and 6 hours later I was home, and now am at work. I don’t have time to write a report now, but will do so soon. We all had a great time and lot’s of nice fish to go around…it was real cool to meet all the people who showed up. More will follow, JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

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10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we really should have been fishing) group is really looking forward to the next Clave?

A ha! So there *was* a fight!! –Steve

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10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we really should have been fishing) group is really looking forward to the next Clave? A ha! So there *was* a fight!! –Steve

Yeah, but wuz there any sissy boys sighted? Frank (muy bueno tutu senior!) Church —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Frank (muy bueno tutu senior!) Church

my beans wear frilly little dresses old man? Joe (monolingual) F.

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Me too Joe, I tried to say "very pretty tutu senior" but I’m lacking a way to put that little ~ in there.  I should stick to pig latin I guess. Frank (knoi knoi) Church Frank (muy bueno tutu senior!) Church my beans wear frilly little dresses old man? Joe (monolingual) F.

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Sunday morning Willi, Danl, and I piled into Danl’s rent-a-car and drove up to the Texas Hole parking lot, where everybody agreed to start that day. Willi announced he was going to fish dries all day (though allowing for an emerger dropper), and brought only the beautiful Zimmerman "Troutmaster" rod to fish with. When we got out and started setting up, Willi couldn’t find his sunglasses, so he drove back to get them. Danl and I made our way to the river, set up and started fishing. 20 minutes pass and neither of us has had a hit, even though you could see some fish feeding. About then Willi steps out of the brush, walks into the river, and says, "Hey there, how’s it goin — Oh, got one!". No kidding, Willi is the Troutmaster. Willi did fall prey to the sunglasses thief that morning, and had to buy new ones. I fell prey the next morning, but had a backup pair. Willi and Danl headed down while I stayed on trying to catch the fish working in front of me, quite unsuccessfully I might add. Oh I caught a couple of smaller ones (13" or so), but the larger ones refused my offerings. One lesson I learned is that I don’t give up as soon as I should. There are so many fish up there that if you’re on some that are refusing everything, you might as well move. I finally moved downstream and met Danl and Ken coming back up to break for lunch. Ken had just taken a nice fish in a backwater, and Danl had taken one earlier with Willi. I passed them and caught a couple more small ones when Willi saw me he called out "Come down here, I found some big fish rising". I went down and sure enough right there were some nice fish rising fairly often. I think I had a foam wing emerger on, and on my first cast one of them took it, but it wasn’t a good hookup and I lost him. I kept fishing for that group, but they’d inspect my fly and refuse it every time. I finally concluded that Willi had already caught all those, because when I first walked up he said he had taken a half dozen nice fish from there (or was it a dozen?). He was below me during this and regularly hooking some smaller fish, and I was doing the same but about 1/2 as often (up to about 14"). He finally hooked a nice one and I was going to get a picture of the Zimmerman rod in fighting position, but he lost it before I could get the camera out. I’m sure he caught more nice ones but after that I didn’t try to get pictures. I must be skipping some part of Sunday, because I did land a couple of nice ones somewhere — I remember because one had a length of leader coming out of its butt. Yes, the fish do pay a price for our fun… The big lesson I learned Sunday (other than moving more often) was that yes, size does matter (for non-Troutmasters). Charlie’s jokes about #62 parameciums are spot on, and that night I bought a pack of #24’s for the evening’s tying session… JonCook.

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I can guess at a few of these 1.  Had horrible plane connections coming and going because of the mid-western (read Chicago) weather?

KEN 5.  Who buried a hook in their hand?  Yes, it was a #24

BOB S, and i’m blaming his big fish, which was in my net 6.  Whose beer still had active yeast in it?

CHARLIE

TAKE YOUR PICK 8.  What the average daily temperature was?

ZERO 9.  Whose looking forward to the next Clave? 10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we

YES AND YES was great Bob, see you in the Jemez. bruce h — bare your soul let your spirit burn out along the road to no return – r.e. keen

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Well, we’ve heard from Forty… /daytripper (rw? hallooooooo rw?)

I’m somewhat disappointed to report that Fortenberry didn’t talk to me at the San Juan Clave in the same style that he uses in ROFF while sitting in front of his computer at home drinking Laphroig, or however the hell you spell it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jon, You got back a little before I did and beat me to it.  Now are you going to say just who was it that: 1.  Had horrible plane connections coming and going because of the mid-western (read Chicago) weather? 2.  Whose luggage was lost; at least overnight? 3.  Whose commode got stopped up? 4.  Who fell in the river and got completely wet? 5.  Who buried a hook in their hand?  Yes, it was a #24 6.  Whose beer still had active yeast in it? days. 8.  What the average daily temperature was? 9.  Whose looking forward to the next Clave? 10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we really should have been fishing) group is really looking forward to the next Clave? Need I go on?

Who lost his net, his lead, and some other damn thing (gloves?). BTW, LaPlac, I have a good photo of you fishing the Kiddie Pool. Just wait. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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I’m somewhat disappointed to report that Fortenberry didn’t talk to me at the San Juan Clave in the same style that he uses in ROFF while sitting in front of his computer at home drinking Laphroig, or however the hell you spell it.

Wow, who would have ever figured that one out . . . . — Warren

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Someone sent me an email, I believe under this thread’s subject, and I accidentally deleted it before reading it while I was throwing out the morning spam. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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rw,    Ken may be an asshole but he isn’t stupid.  I,am glad you two didn’t tangle and spoil the Clave fellowship.  I would think you had enough excitement with all the good fishing and meeting new ROFFian’s.  Count your blessings. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m somewhat disappointed to report that Fortenberry didn’t talk to me at the San Juan Clave in the same style that he uses in ROFF while sitting in front of his computer at home drinking Laphroig, or however the hell you spell it.

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Zimbo dreaming writes: A ha! So there *was* a fight!!

Yeah!  I kicked Fortenberry’s ass!  I enjoy it by closing my eyes and thinking Louie, alive and well in Yankeeville…..

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Still having that little identification problem, eh?  Perhaps a google search on "poor people"? Hey that helped clear it up, thanks. http://www.creativeworks.ch/musicians/pw2.htm

wow.  major zinger. In two years on the usenet, I cannot think of a single time I have been so deeply or so deftly cut.  You got a real gift there!  I had wondered whether you really came back because you weren’t getting enough opportunities to whine wherever else it is you hang out, but now I see that your real agenda was simply to unload some of your heavy munitions!  I find myself, somewhat paradoxically, both humbled and proud that you consider me worthy of such herculean efforts.  Might I be so bold as to suggest that a stunning career in satire awaits you, should you decide to pursue it?  Of course, careless readers might be left behind by the subtlety of cross born by every great artist.     Wolfgang tag, your it!

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Wolfgang snivelled: In two years on the usenet, I cannot think of a single time I have been so deeply or so deftly cut.

You’ll get over it.  I’m glad you got a chance to talk to me again.  As always, a pleasure playing your little games, and as always, I tire of it.  But don’t feel sad – you’re a cunning linguist and a master baiter (*), so you have a halfway decent chance of goading me into another argument someday.  In the meantime, you and Ken will have to find something else to stroke each other over.  And do try to stop obsessing over me, ‘kay?  TTFN Schattenjaeger. (*) Could it have been you who emailed me the pointer to your own Nazi propaganda just for fun? Regards, Jeff

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You’ll get over it.  I’m glad you got a chance to talk to me again.  As always, a pleasure playing your little games, and as always, I tire of it.  But don’t feel sad – you’re a cunning linguist and a master baiter (*), so you have a halfway decent chance of goading me into another argument someday.  In the meantime, you and Ken will have to find something else to stroke each other over.  And do try to stop obsessing over me, ‘kay?  TTFN Schattenjaeger.

You’re showing modest signs of improvement, Jeff –Steve

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Wolfgang snivelled: In two years on the usenet, I cannot think of a single time I have been so deeply or so deftly cut.

Rats!  Saw right through my pathetic attempt at bravado.      :) ……do try to stop obsessing over me, ‘kay?

Yeah, I’ll try.  But it’s going to be tough! (*) Could it have been you who emailed me the pointer to your own Nazi propaganda just for fun?

Nah, secret communiqu

Question:

Does anyone know of any good links or resources for current fishing reports on the Klamath? Thx

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FISH FIRST

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Here’s a few links.  The first one is updated every Wednesday.  The other two are interesting but I’m not sure if there accurate or updated very often.     If you want a good book I recommend  "Fishing Central Oregon" edited by GeofHill  published by Sun Publishing in Bend Oregon. BJC http://www.dfw.state.or.us/ http://www.steelheader.net/home/default.shtml http://www.fishsniffer.com/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know of any good links or resources for current fishing reports on the Klamath? Thx

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So far all the posts are out of date or bait guide ads.  To find out what is really happening on the Klamath, Smith Eel and the Trinity, call Mike Kuczynski at the Eureka Fly shop at 800-435-9546 or e-mail him at Mike has 2-3 guide boats on the water daily and has the scoop.  I went with him in October but conditions are different now.  Lots of bad data put out on these rivers.  Read carefully. Tight lines. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know of any good links or resources for current fishing reports on the Klamath? Thx

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The lower 30 miles of river fishes best with a fly in September. You need a jet boat for most of this water. That is from Klamath Glen to Weitchpec. In October the fishing is usually good from Orleans to Happy Camp. This is walk in fishing or drift boating. In these warmer months you can fish a floating line as long as the sun is not on the water you are fishing. After the sun hits the water, most anglers use a sinktip to get down a little. In November the water gets a little colder so most are using sinking lines and weighted flies. They have fishing all winter if it is a mild one. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know of any good links or resources for current fishing reports on the Klamath? Thx

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try westfly.com great site      

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Question:

Is August trip to Fall River worthwhile and any rcommendations on guides appreciated?

Response:

August is the slow period on Fall River.   Much better in the spring or fall. The highlight for many is the hex hatch usually in June.  Call Ray at Shasta Angler in Fall River Mills for recommended guides. Steve

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is August trip to Fall River worthwhile and any rcommendations on guides appreciated?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is August trip to Fall River worthwhile and any rcommendations on guides appreciated?

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Hi All, I would recommend June and October for the Fall River in northern California. Go to the High Country, Montana or Alaska in August.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is August trip to Fall River worthwhile and any rcommendations on guides appreciated?

Response:

Hi All, I would recommend June and October for the Fall River in northern California. Go to the High Country, Montana or Alaska in August. Is August trip to Fall River worthwhile and any rcommendations on guides appreciated?

Hi Bill, Good advice again.  I know he may be able to book with Doug Swisher at that time when he is in Hamilton, Montana.  There are ready made guided trips on the Big Horn and of course the Yellowstone area can be fished in the park on one’s own.  High Country fishing can be a hit or bust situation and of course hitting the right lake at exactly the right time can be chancy.  High altitude lakes differ in climate at those elevations from spot to spot, it seems more often then not.  Some of those gin clear waters are difficult to fish and they seem to spook more easily then in the lower rivers. Anyhow, there are other western states such as Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, and Washington that have guided trips.  The national parks do not require guides but it helps.   How is the fly tying going Bill?  Did you get any memorable fishing in the last century? George — http://www.gink.com/chat

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Any other options than Rick’s Lodge to fish Fall River?

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Question:

Help, please: Here’s the scenario.  I fish a river that contains a population of wild, anadromous (I think), brook trout.  Most of the fish are in the 8 to 13" size, and they are caught fairly easily on dries.  There’s another size class, about 14 to 18", that can be caught on large dries, muddlers, streamers, etc with fair regularity at dawn and dusk. But the deeper pools also hide another size class.  These fish seem to be in the 5 to 6 lb. class. I’ve only seen them a couple of times, following an 8 or 10" fish in on the end of my line.  One grabbed a trout my son was landing last year, about 6 feet from shore, and tore off line to the far end of the pool before making off with the smaller fish. So, they’re clearly piscivorous.  Never seen one rise for a fly.  I think I need a streamer pattern that represents about  a 6 or 8" brook trout.  Any ideas?  I’d also love to be able to cast it with a #6 rod, but hey, life involves compromises. Thanks in advance to the collective wisdom of the group. brent

Response:

Help, please: Here’s the scenario.

(snip of description of paradise) Thanks in advance to the collective wisdom of the group. brent

        just tell me where you are, brent, and i will supply all the wisdom you will ever need.         you will be covered in streamers. wayno

Response:

Help, please: Here’s the scenario.  I fish a river that contains a population of wild, anadromous (I think), brook trout.  

I’ve never heard of anadramous brook trout. Can this be so? — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

<<So, they’re clearly piscivorous.  Never seen one rise for a fly.  I think I need a streamer pattern that represents about  a 6 or 8" brook trout.  Any ideas?  I’d also love to be able to cast it with a #6 rod, but hey, life involves compromises. Thanks in advance to the collective wisdom of the group. There are a number of streamers that imitate a little brook trout. I think the key is size and depth.  I would tie it in a #2 or #4, 4x to 6x long, and use a sink tip line to get it down.  I would also retrieve very quickly.  You could easily cast it with a 6 wt.  Won’t be pretty <G, but you can get out a good one. Now, if you were to meet me at this little fishing hole, I will supply the correct flies and tackle.  d;0) Dave LaCourse

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I’ve never heard of anadramous brook trout. Can this be so?

Sure can.  In New England they call them "Salters".  Some coastal streams have a fairly good run.  Also some browns. George Adams

Response:

Several strains of brook trout are anadramous. — Nicholas J. Slodki http://trampled.net/Nikolai0/

: : Help, please: : : Here’s the scenario.  I fish a river that contains a population of wild, : anadromous (I think), brook trout. : :I’ve never heard of anadramous brook trout. Can this be so? : :– : :something bogus to avoid spam) :

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Help, please: Here’s the scenario. (snip of description of paradise) Thanks in advance to the collective wisdom of the group. brent         just tell me where you are, brent, and i will supply all the wisdom you will ever need.         you will be covered in streamers. wayno

Wayno: Its the Cains River.  Flows into the Main southwest Miramichi near Blackville, N.B. The stretch under discussion is roughly 15 km. long. Its a stretch of the Crown Angling Reserve Waters managed by NBDNRE. Its fly fishing only, hook and release, barbless.  Beautiful.  Moose, bear, deer, eagle, bobcat, etc.  I think there’s one occupied camp on the whole stretch; no bridges.  Its $10 canadian per day, limit of 6 rods per day. The catch?  Available to NB Residents ONLY.   (On the other hand, the other hundred or so Km. of the Cains is open to fly fishing by non-residents accompanied by a resident guide.) Sorry.  I guess I can’t expect that coat of many streamers, can I? Any chance of a pattern suggestion anyway?  You could fish it vicariously through me. brent

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Help, please: Here’s the scenario. (snip of description of paradise) Thanks in advance to the collective wisdom of the group. brent         just tell me where you are, brent, and i will supply all the wisdom you will ever need.         you will be covered in streamers. wayno

hook. Mr. G. drift* —

Question:

Planning a potential:-) two-week trip to Rockies in..?Feb-March.. sometime…..for skiing.  Are there any relatively shallow waters fishable then…or when….  Including some lightline flyfishing   would definitely add a lot to the trip.  Although judging from the springtime entries…to beat the spring *thaw*:-) seems to be anytime before late june!..?.. out there. feel free to email…. tight_lines, steve d.

Response:

Planning a potential:-) two-week trip to Rockies in..?Feb-March.. sometime…..for skiing.  Are there any relatively shallow waters fishable then…or when….  Including some lightline flyfishing would definitely add a lot to the trip.  Although judging from the springtime entries…to beat the spring *thaw*:-) seems to be anytime before late june!..?.. out there. feel free to email…. tight_lines, steve d.

Hi Steve, You can experience great skiing at Big Sky or Bridger Bowl near Bozeman.  The fishing that time of year on Nelson’s spring creek (not sure about the outcome with Depuys/Armstrongs yet), the Beaver Head, and the Big Horn are all great.  Mid day midges, blue winged olives, etc. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Question:

| Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! [chomp] |  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) | [..] | to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results | were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor Riiiiight! Heard of Craig Shergold?

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[...] : : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. : What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on : GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? : Now we await the long silence…..         Would that we had had to endure YOURS.  Be that as it may, however,         it’s clear that you have never been to a cattle-raising country         in which you actually engaged in observation.  The fact is that         most beef cattle are raised by grazing and, in the U. S. anyway,         only spend the last few weeks of life in a feedlot.  It is my         understanding that many other beef-producing countries dispense         with the feedlot and bring the animals to market directly from         the range (which is why their beef tends to be somewhat less         tender and somewhat more strongly flavored than the rather bland         stuff we’re used to in the U. S.).         How much time does the average beef cow spend in the feedlots,         Seetoh?         [With any luck, we'll now endure a long silence...] — – Rich Young (E-mail will be posted publicly as I see fit.  You have been warned.)

Response:

Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes

text deleted hare krishna, actually i agree with a lot of this post. IF YOU ARE NOT SELF-SUFFICIENT YOU ARE NOT A VEGETARIAN. that’s why i’m learning everything i can about self-sufficiency and sustainable, cruelty-free, organic agriculture. but i must say that the below text is a load of garbage. i’m a hare krishna devotee (please refrain from the cult jokes). i live on a krishna farm community and teach at our elementary school. all the children here have been strict vegetarians since birth. visitors are always commenting on how radiantly healthy they look. some of the older kids who go to public high school are star athletes of every sport. none have EVER eaten meat. bhaktin casey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) In a recent study, a 35 year old male, strict vegetarian of 12 years, went for a checkup at his doctors office.  Thinking he was perfectly fit, the man proceeded out the office right after the checkup. The doctor chased him down the hall, and grabbed him aside then he said, " Im sorry Bob, you have 2 months to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor said he needed meat at least occasionaly, to live. Unfortunately, the problem could not be corrected, it was too late for Bob. he died on 8/21/96. This sad episode COULD have been prevented.  In another related study,  Woman who are pregnant that were vegetarians averaged    babies with a much lower weight than meat-eating pregnant mothers. 50% of the babies of strict vegetarians were considered "weak" and "having birth weights of dangerously low levels". This is sad news, but true. You see people, we need meat to build our strong hearts, and strong muscles. These "weak" babies didnt get a chance to choose if they wanted to be vegetarians, their bodies were forced only veggies by the unsensitive mothers, who, in a way, were already forcing their beliefs on their un-born child. This doesnt need to be the case. Or how about when your child is 16 years old, and is 4 foot 9, with bad bones and bad vision? what do you do when that child asks you , "mommy, why did you take the life away from me? why didnt you feed me the necessary nutrients that meat provides when I was in your womb?" These sad cases are all too often. Meat builds champions, and warriors. We need meat to fight our wars, and to be victorious. We need the feeling of bringing home the meat to our family. A feeling that cant be taken for granted. Come on people, cows are no better than mosquitos. If your a vegetarian, and bugs hit your windshield, and it doesnt bother you, why does it bother you when an old cow gets a bolt through the head? What is the difference? The folks that started our very existence, ate meat and loved it. If it were not for their great meat-eating abilities, we all would not be here. So I ask you to rally your support for our GREAT fishermen and hunters. these caring and bright people continue fine traditions that are responsible for your being here. That great Sportsmen, the breath of fresh air in a smoggy world, is the master of his domain, a true "king" if you will, of his senses and surroundings. Fishing and Hunting are the bright positives in a negative world. And there is nothing like enjoying a big barbeque before a good hunt or fishing outing.  Ribs, chicken wings, drumsticks, meatballs, fish fillets(trout are best served whole), steaks, eggs, chicken breasts, veil, lamb cutlet dripping with grease, juicy, flavourful bratwurst, and best of all, a nice side of ham with some spicey mustard.  these sorts of foods provide oneself with power, nutrition, and the ability to prosper in adverse enviornments. So, I ask you again, support the great fishermen and hunters. Give them a pat on the back when   you see one , and tell him/her, "thanks, thanks for all youve done. Thank you for allowing me the gift of true life. I am forever thankful." Lets not have anymore weak babies and sad stories like the one above. Start supporting meat and our great sportspersons. For these individuals know the essence of life. If you take the time to really know a sportsperson, you might change your life, for the better.——Muskie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life : than hunters or meat eaters. : : This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being : killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced : there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… : it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity : of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals : (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? Now we await the long silence….. seetoh

In California one of our largest crops is rice and the biproduct of rice production consists of millions of mosquito fish and crawdads flushed out of the fields before harvest. Most of these die in the drainage ditches. Since most of the veggies eat rice just think how many animal lives they are responsible for. Harvesting other grains destroys bird nests and draining wetlands to grow these benign grains have destroyed the waterfowl flocks that use to blacken our skies with their flights (do you think that might have been another form of air polution  )   I wish they would enjoy their veggies and leave more good wholesome meat for the rest of us dewayne

Response:

Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes of the hypocrites, once and for all. Alot of vegetarians eat that way because they dont believe in killing animals. Well, guess what? You vegetarians kill many animals by eating corn, beans, turnips and other such vegetables.  When old macdonald is out in his field in planting or harvesting season, he is running over many mice, bird eggs, salamanders, and you name it with his plow and tractor. Ever seen how fast a baby rabbit is when it is two weeks old? Not very. It is also not very likely that a nest of young bunnys could survive a run in with a plow or tractor wheel.   Grouse eggs, plus baby grouse dont stand a chance in the farmers WHEAT fields  when its pickin’ time.  Weasels, baby skunks, baby woodchucks, baby geese, baby oppusom, tucked in their little burrows into the soft dirt of the farmers field dont have a chance in planting or plowing season. Every time you take a bite of that corn, and think to yourself, " Im glad im a vegetarian, I dont kill animals like those stupid hunters do " , you contribute to at least a few senseless animal deaths. For every 200 acre farmers field, think of all the animals that are killed or mamed by the plow or harvester! Animals dont know any better to nest and live somewhere else. They see a nice field to nest up in, not knowing the horrors that lie ahead. Think of all the shrews, all the insects, and all the animal life that is destroyed when old macdonald plants and harvests. It is overwelming. Now, I have seen many farms and met many farmers, and I havent seen ONE farmer without a shotgun, or a gun that he hunts birds and animals with. I have seen many farms that use barb wire fences to keep out deer so they dont eat the vegetable products growing on the farm. If you look at some of those fences, you can see deer hair and   skin stuck to the barbs, and sometimes deer will get stuck in those fences and ultimatley die a slow and horrible death, all twisted and mangled with broken necks. And, most farmers have 22’s they use to pot-shoot groundchucks and groundhogs, to keep them from eating the vegetable products they are growing. Not a pretty picture I am painting here is it veggies?  rabbits are always a nusiance on farms, and hence, many farmers utilize cats and dogs to comb the fields, hoping these pets will keep the rabbit population down. A farmers field yeilding vegetable products is not a animal friendly place as you can see! But wait, theres more!   Many farmers growing vegetable product also use pesticides. These pesticides either annoy or kill tens of thousands of different insect animal life. Not only do the pesticides used kill insect life, when the rains come down, these pestecides wash off into farm creeks, ponds, and lakes. Ever seen a river next to some large corn or lettuce farms? The fish life is pathetic at best. catfish with tumors, and where bass used to live, suckers take over because the runoff has killed the oxygen levels, making it almost impossible for fish to survive. So, even eating corn kills fish!  Pesticide runoff is a common problem where farmers grow vegetable product. It causes the death of thousands of fish, and virtually destroys these freshwater ecosystems, killing turtles, ducks, kingfishers, herons, cranes, mink, otter, racoon, muskrat and so on. I think your getting the picture. How does that guilt-free salad taste now?   and think of the cows, deer, fox, coyote,and other large game that drink form these pesticide creeks and lakes! All so you can have your guilt-free vegetarian life style! How about them veggies! As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life than hunters or meat eaters. I have exposed the double standards and hypocrisy by which vegetarians live, and I hope they stop the high and mighty banter, and the self righteous behaviour they impose on everyone else who chooses to eat meat. All I ask in return is an apology from AR’s (animal rights people) to hunters and meat eaters.  It is as simple as that.——Muskie  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) In a recent study, a 35 year old male, strict vegetarian of 12 years, went for a checkup at his doctors office.  Thinking he was perfectly fit, the man proceeded out the office right after the checkup. The doctor chased him down the hall, and grabbed him aside then he said, " Im sorry Bob, you have 2 months to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor said he needed meat at least occasionaly, to live. Unfortunately, the problem could not be corrected, it was too late for Bob. he died on 8/21/96. This sad episode COULD have been prevented.  In another related study,  Woman who are pregnant that were vegetarians averaged    babies with a much lower weight than meat-eating pregnant mothers. 50% of the babies of strict vegetarians were considered "weak" and "having birth weights of dangerously low levels". This is sad news, but true. You see people, we need meat to build our strong hearts, and strong muscles. These "weak" babies didnt get a chance to choose if they wanted to be vegetarians, their bodies were forced only veggies by the unsensitive mothers, who, in a way, were already forcing their beliefs on their un-born child. This doesnt need to be the case. Or how about when your child is 16 years old, and is 4 foot 9, with bad bones and bad vision? what do you do when that child asks you , "mommy, why did you take the life away from me? why didnt you feed me the necessary nutrients that meat provides when I was in your womb?" These sad cases are all too often. Meat builds champions, and warriors. We need meat to fight our wars, and to be victorious. We need the feeling of bringing home the meat to our family. A feeling that cant be taken for granted. Come on people, cows are no better than mosquitos. If your a vegetarian, and bugs hit your windshield, and it doesnt bother you, why does it bother you when an old cow gets a bolt through the head? What is the difference? The folks that started our very existence, ate meat and loved it. If it were not for their great meat-eating abilities, we all would not be here. So I ask you to rally your support for our GREAT fishermen and hunters. these caring and bright people continue fine traditions that are responsible for your being here. That great Sportsmen, the breath of fresh air in a smoggy world, is the master of his domain, a true "king" if you will, of his senses and surroundings. Fishing and Hunting are the bright positives in a negative world. And there is nothing like enjoying a big barbeque before a good hunt or fishing outing.  Ribs, chicken wings, drumsticks, meatballs, fish fillets(trout are best served whole), steaks, eggs, chicken breasts, veil, lamb cutlet dripping with grease, juicy, flavourful bratwurst, and best of all, a nice side of ham with some spicey mustard.  these sorts of foods provide oneself with power, nutrition, and the ability to prosper in adverse enviornments. So, I ask you again, support the great fishermen and hunters. Give them a pat on the back when   you see one , and tell him/her, "thanks, thanks for all youve done. Thank you for allowing me the gift of true life. I am forever thankful." Lets not have anymore weak babies and sad stories like the one above. Start supporting meat and our great sportspersons. For these individuals know the essence of life. If you take the time to really know a sportsperson, you might change your life, for the better.——Muskie

Response:

Is "dying from lack of meat" the technical definition of "Bob’s" condition; i don’t have a strong medical background.                                         -curious

Response:

Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. [rest deleted]

Well… It *is* the truth, isn’t it ? TimW

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Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts!

Hmm, using my wonderous (almost if I could get it to work properly) new bit of software at home, I can browse the newsgroups whilst also being able to see the newsgroups list. The concept of people on ‘talk.politic.tibet’, ‘rec.animals.wildlife’, ‘rec.backcountry’ etc being ‘fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts’ just doesn’t really ring true. I think the best thing is to assume it is a troll and <snip — David Arno

Response:

As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life than hunters or meat eaters.

This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in many parts of this country. I have exposed the double standards and hypocrisy by which vegetarians live, and I hope they stop the high and mighty banter, and the self righteous behaviour they impose on everyone else who chooses to eat meat. All I ask in return is an apology from AR’s (animal rights people) to hunters and meat eaters.  It is as simple as that.——Muskie

If animals had a voice, they would demand an apology from YOU.

Response:

Is "dying from lack of meat" the technical definition of "Bob’s" condition; i don’t have a strong medical background.                                    -curious

Sounds kind of funny to me, maybe that doctor should face a review board, sounds like s/he doesn’t know what s/he is talking about.  If it were protein deficiency, that’s one thing, but "dying from lack of meat"….sounds like a diagnosis a 3-year old hamburger lover would make. Cynthia S. Smith http://www.sn.no/~csmith http://www.ifi.uio.no/~cynthias

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= =   As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life =   than hunters or meat eaters. = =   This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being =   killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced =   there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… =   it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity =   of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals =   (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the =   animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create =   urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in =   many parts of this country. Hmmm…what if you raise the meat animals on permanent pasture (i.e. rarely if ever plowed)? —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes of the hypocrites, once and for all. Alot of vegetarians eat that way because they dont believe in killing animals. Well, guess what? You vegetarians kill many animals by eating corn, beans, turnips and other such vegetables.  When old macdonald is out in his field in planting or harvesting season, he is running over many mice, bird eggs, salamanders, and you name it with his plow and tractor. Ever seen how fast a baby rabbit is when it is two weeks old? Not very. It is also not very likely that a nest of young bunnys could survive a run in with a plow or tractor wheel.   Grouse eggs, plus baby grouse dont stand a chance in the farmers WHEAT fields  when its pickin’ time.  Weasels, baby skunks, baby woodchucks, baby geese, baby oppusom, tucked in their little burrows into the soft dirt of the farmers field dont have a chance in planting or plowing season. Every time you take a bite of that corn, and think to yourself, " Im glad im a vegetarian, I dont kill animals like those stupid hunters do " , you contribute to at least a few senseless animal deaths. For every 200 acre farmers field, think of all the animals that are killed or mamed by the plow or harvester!   ( the rest deleted)

200 acres?  Not far from here they measure their fields by the section (640 acres)!  And don’t forget all the animals that are no longer with us because of loss of habitat to the plow.

Response:

As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life than hunters or meat eaters. This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian.

As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat.  Rangeland contains a wide variety of animal life, none of which are killed to make room for the growth of human foodstuff (in this case, cattle).  So while it may take 10 times as much grass to make a pound of meat, feeding the grass to the cattle certainly does no harm to the surrounding animals. In addition, the animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in many parts of this country.

More so than was caused by the vast herds of bison and pronghorns in the past? Jessica and the zoo: Kosh (dog), Liza (horse), Nikki, Pixel, and Voodoo (Demon Cats from Hell), Flick (snake) and oh yeah, Keith (husband), who puts up with us all.   "Frogs are generally considered a pretty non-violent species. Unless, of course, you’re a fly".  -Kermit

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[brutally slaughtered text was here] As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat.  

Except in brownies. And I think the original poster has that down just pat. 8^) TimW

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Arendt) writes: = =   As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life =   than hunters or meat eaters. = =   This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being =   killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced =   there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… =   it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity =   of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals =   (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the =   animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create =   urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in =   many parts of this country. Hmmm…what if you raise the meat animals on permanent pasture (i.e. rarely if ever plowed)?

As you can see "Muskies" tick off just as many, if not MORE rec.backcountry posters than hunters or meat eaters. It’s just amazing, but even when he’s being relatively polite, if not particularly well-reasoned, he sounds like he (she, it?) is on a non-stop rant. And Muskie was certainly never one to limit his posting to a single newsgroup at a time (I’ve deleted about 37 zillion groups in the header so I won’t be accused of spamming) Welcome back, Muskie …  I guess!! — Cheers, Paul Weiss Backwater Trails: http://www.netaccess.on.ca/~cpweiss/BWT/BWT.html Personal Home Page: http://www.netaccess.on.ca/~cpweiss/ Quote:"A symposium on time-travel will be held two weeks ago"            "Does anal retentive have a hyphen?"                                                        

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes text deleted hare krishna, actually i agree with a lot of this post. IF YOU ARE NOT SELF-SUFFICIENT YOU ARE NOT A VEGETARIAN. that’s why i’m learning everything i can about self-sufficiency and sustainable, cruelty-free, organic agriculture. but i must say that the below text is a load of garbage. i’m a hare krishna devotee (please refrain from the cult jokes). i live on a krishna farm community and teach at our elementary school. all the children here have been strict vegetarians since birth. visitors are always commenting on how radiantly healthy they look. some of the older kids who go to public high school are star athletes of every sport. none have EVER eaten meat. bhaktin casey  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) In a recent study, a 35 year old male, strict vegetarian of 12 years, went for a checkup at his doctors office.  Thinking he was perfectly fit, the man proceeded out the office right after the checkup. The doctor chased him down the hall, and grabbed him aside then he said, " Im sorry Bob, you have 2 months to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor said he needed meat at least occasionaly, to live. Unfortunately, the problem could not be corrected, it was too late for Bob. he died on 8/21/96. This sad episode COULD have been prevented.  In another related study,  Woman who are pregnant that were vegetarians averaged    babies with a much lower weight than meat-eating pregnant mothers. 50% of the babies of strict vegetarians were considered "weak" and "having birth weights of dangerously low levels". This is sad news, but true. You see people, we need meat to build our strong hearts, and strong muscles. These "weak" babies didnt get a chance to choose if they wanted to be vegetarians, their bodies were forced only veggies by the unsensitive mothers, who, in a way, were already forcing their beliefs on their un-born child. This doesnt need to be the case. Or how about when your child is 16 years old, and is 4 foot 9, with bad bones and bad vision? what do you do when that child asks you , "mommy, why did you take the life away from me? why didnt you feed me the necessary nutrients that meat provides when I was in your womb?" These sad cases are all too often. Meat builds champions, and warriors. We need meat to fight our wars, and to be victorious. We need the feeling of bringing home the meat to our family. A feeling that cant be taken for granted. Come on people, cows are no better than mosquitos. If your a vegetarian, and bugs hit your windshield, and it doesnt bother you, why does it bother you when an old cow gets a bolt through the head? What is the difference? The folks that started our very existence, ate meat and loved it. If it were not for their great meat-eating abilities, we all would not be here. So I ask you to rally your support for our GREAT fishermen and hunters. these caring and bright people continue fine traditions that are responsible for your being here. That great Sportsmen, the breath of fresh air in a smoggy world, is the master of his domain, a true "king" if you will, of his senses and surroundings. Fishing and Hunting are the bright positives in a negative world. And there is nothing like enjoying a big barbeque before a good hunt or fishing outing.  Ribs, chicken wings, drumsticks, meatballs, fish fillets(trout are best served whole), steaks, eggs, chicken breasts, veil, lamb cutlet dripping with grease, juicy, flavourful bratwurst, and best of all, a nice side of ham with some spicey mustard.  these sorts of foods provide oneself with power, nutrition, and the ability to prosper in adverse enviornments. So, I ask you again, support the great fishermen and hunters. Give them a pat on the back when   you see one , and tell him/her, "thanks, thanks for all youve done. Thank you for allowing me the gift of true life. I am forever thankful." Lets not have anymore weak babies and sad stories like the one above. Start supporting meat and our great sportspersons. For these individuals know the essence of life. If you take the time to really know a sportsperson, you might change your life, for the better.——Muskie

    —— Hmmmmmmmmm?—— Nice disertation but you’re boy Bob is the exception, not the rule. Americans have TOO MUCH MEAT in their diet and their Cholesterol Levels and Fat levels are beyond reason.  FAT INTAKE should not exceed 5% of the total calories and Cholesterol should be as close to zero as possible. George Gehrke

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[snip] BACK UP HERE and consider this.  "ALL life comes from the sun".  You figure out for yourself the evidence that plant material sustains flesh.  At least, I hope you do not lack ‘logic’. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink Now then, can we all start talking about fly fishing please?

I hate to be a nit picking buttinsky but using words like "all" and "always" in a statement usually gets you in trouble.  This is no exception.  There have relatively recently been discovered ecosystems that are completely independent of the sun’s energy.  I’m referring to deep sea sulfur vents which exist in total darkness and sulfur reducing bacteria are the primary producers. Regarding cattle etc. being fed grass.  If the doubter ( I’ve lost track of who’s who on this thread) would like to come to Kansas, I’ll show them the largest remaining tract of tallgrass prairie ( and some of the most beautiful scenery in the world ) with all kinds of cattle happily munching the grass and making steak. — Brent L. Brock Kansas State University Dept. Agronomy, Range Science

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life : than hunters or meat eaters. : : This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being : killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced : there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… : it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity : of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals : (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? Now we await the long silence….. seetoh

BACK UP HERE and consider this.  "ALL life comes from the sun".  You figure out for yourself the evidence that plant material sustains flesh.  At least, I hope you do not lack ‘logic’. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink Now then, can we all start talking about fly fishing please?

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Don’t forget all the pollution created when shipping those yummy veggies cross country. todd — "I envy not him that eats better meat than I do, nor him that is richer or wears better clothes than I do. I envy nobody but him, and him only, that catches more fish than I do." Izaak Walton

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: As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat.  Rangeland contains a wide : variety of animal life, none of which are killed to make room for : the growth of human foodstuff (in this case, cattle).  So while it : may take 10 times as much grass to make a pound of meat, feeding : the grass to the cattle certainly does no harm to the surrounding : animals. You are of course referring to buffaloes and wolves when you talk about animals not being killed to make room for cattle.  Then, there are the slash and burn tactics of Brazilian ranchers.  No animals being killed there, eh.  And let us not forget polluted water sources because of animal waste.  Since we are discussing animals, I won’t even go into how many people die early because of the garbage that is passed off on them as meat.                                  -Tom

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: : As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life : than hunters or meat eaters. : : This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being : killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced : there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… : it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity : of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals : (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? Now we await the long silence….. seetoh

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200 acres?  Not far from here they measure their fields by the section (640 acres)!  And don’t forget all the animals that are no longer with us because of loss of habitat to the plow.

Not to mention all the corn and wheat that died so that we could live.  Don’t discount them;  they’re a sight more alive than rocks and minerals, after all.   Just think;  if redwood trees were a culinary treat,  them environmentalists and vegetarians would have a whole new battle to fight. Not that I distance myself from those particular causes;  I’m simply posing as the polemic. Cheers, Jen

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Doug Arendt) writes: = =   As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life =   than hunters or meat eaters. = =   This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being =   killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced =   there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… =   it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity =   of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals =   (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the =   animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create =   urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in =   many parts of this country. Hmmm…what if you raise the meat animals on permanent pasture (i.e. rarely if ever plowed)? And the previous poster is ignoring that all those ‘pollutants’, urine, fecal matter, etc. are actually the main ingredients in organic fertilizer.  Guess they don’t eat organic produce, huh….. Besides, the WORST pollutant of our water ways is run-off from urban and suburban lawns. Sue — ======= Mike Mayer                     (414) 751-3557     Work: Technology Group, Inc. Neenah, WI                 Home:

In the west a real factor is the amount of water it takes to grow a pound of steak. Alfalfa and hay need LOTS of water. It is tremendously inefficient to grow our protein on the hoof.

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<Hundreds of lines of crap deleted Excellent!  Muskie, meet Dr Jai.  Dr Jai, meet Muskie.  Why don’t the two of you bugger off to alt.fan.jai-maharaj and have a cosy chat? — I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did.  I said I didn’t know.                                                 Mark Twain.

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Question:

Checkout Lefty’s outstanding Tips and Techniques for Fly Fishing at: http://www.fred.net/downsouth/lefty.htm

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Checkout Lefty’s outstanding Tips and Techniques for Fly Fishing at: http://www.fred.net/downsouth.lefty.htm

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Question:

Could some one please explain to me the details of rigging for saltwater fly fishing? I have only ever fly fished for Fresh water trout. I’d like to know what a shock tippet is in particular, and where in the rig to put it. Is there any need for a wire leader? A general discription from hook to fly line would be most appreciated (length of leader, tapers, etc.). Many thanks to all of you who responded to my post asking for information about fly fishing for weakies. I’m going to try tying up some of these flies you all recommended. Callum

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Shock tippet is a section of heavy mono next to the fly to prevent cutoffs. Wire only necessary wth toothy fish(Bluefish, etc) No need for fancy leaders. What I do is nail knot a 24" butt section to the line and then loop the rest of the leader to this. It’s easy and works fine.

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I concur with previous post.  I just start with a bass-sized tapered butt (in fact, I save worked-over bass leaders for this purpose) and go straight to a 12 lb flourocarbon tippet.  When throwing shooting heads and Teenys, elegant turnover is not my main goal. As to hook sizes, etc., I tend to larger hooks and flies; most of my clousers are tied on a 1/0.  Specs sometimes want a smaller one.   Rig up a stripping basket.  It is essential in surf or other wading situations; you will be trying for long casts.  I use an 18"x12"x6" tupperware storage box with 1/4" holes drilled in the bottom and 2" lengths of 200# mono (or any other stiff wire or line) sticking up through the bottom, secured by epoxy or some other bulky glue.  Mine is held on by a bungee cord hooked through holed drilled in the handle spaces.  Total cost is about $10; you can buy the same thing at Orvis for about 50$. Good luck with those weakies. D

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First of all, for weakfish you needn’t concern yourself with a shock tippet.  Even though they have a few teeth, they have soft mouths and are not going to be cutting your tippet.   Shock tippets are required only for larger fish with hard mouths or toothsome crittters like bluefish who will bite a light tippet in two.   For that reason a shock tippet should more accurately be called a "bite tippet."   It goes at the very end of the leader, between the class tippet and the fly, and should be no longer than 8-to-10 inches or so.   The idea is simple:  to give toothy fish a heavy section of mono to chew on so they don’t break you off.  For blues you might want a 25-30 pound bite tippet.  For large tarpon you might go as heavy as 80-100 pound test.   Connecting a heavy bite tippet to a light class tippet requires a sophisticated system of knots.  You tie a bimini twist in each end of the class tippet then connect the bite tippet with a huffnagle, or an albright knot.  There’s no way to describe these knots in words.   Find yourself a good illustrated guide like Lefty Kreh’s book on Practical Fishing Knots. Wire leaders are strictly for fish with razor sharp teeth, like barracuda.  Better to buy these ready-tied than to try to make them yourself.  Climax makes saltwater leaders with wire melded to the class tippet in a seamless connection.  As for tying tapered leaders, I use Mason hard-type leader material for the salt.  Because of its stiffness it turns over well in a breeze and isn’t as susceptible to "wind" knots.   A formula for a basic 10 foot saltwater leader might go like this. Connect a leader butt to the fly line with a loop-to-loop connection. (I.e. whip-finish a loop in the end of the fly line, tie a surgeon’s loop or perfection loop in the leader butt, then loop the two together.) Although it sounds complicated, this makes changing leaders a snap.  And don’t worry, the knots will pass through the guides with no problem.   So, anyway, you start with a leader butt of 30-pound test, about five feet long.   Then, using a blood knot, add a twenty-pound section of about 2 1/2 feet.  Then a fifteen-pound section of about  1 1/4 feet.  Finish with a section of class tippet of, say, eight-pound test, about 15-18 inches long.   Such a leader should be more than adequate for weakfish.   All this said, there is a much simpler solution;   Start with a leader butt then add a straight section of 8-pound mono as long as you want.   Tie on fly.  Go fishing. A straight leader might not turn off as deftly as a tapered leader, but unless you’re making precise casts to bonefish or tailing redfish, a straight leader works just fine.   Good fishing

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I use Mason hard-type leader material for the salt.  Because of its stiffness it turns over well in a breeze and isn’t as susceptible to "wind" knots.  

Great info,  but what is Mason hard-type leader material?   Thanks for the tips. rmm

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Question:

 bring and where to go.  I don’t mind traveling an hour to get to a good  fishing spot.

You’ll have to travel more than an hour.  The nearest stream worth fishing is probably the South Branch of the Au Sable, about three hours north, near Roscommon.  I don’t remember what hatches would be proceeding then — standard midsummer stuff.

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I will be in Auburn Hills, Michigan (near Pontiac, MI) on business from July 17 through July 22.  I would like to bring my fly rod with me and do some fishing.  Can someone out there give me some advice on what flys to bring and where to go.  I don’t mind traveling an hour to get to a good fishing spot.

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