Question:

This is mutating the topic somewhat, but here goes: I like the "Trilene knot" quite a bit.  It retains much of the original line strength and is just as easy to tie as a regular clinch knot.  The name irritates me, however.  Can a line company truly lay claim to a knot?  Must we make an advertisement for somebody every time we teach someone this knot?  Is it known by any other name? Pete C

Response:

If you’d be satisfied with a guess, the name could have originated simply because it was a knot initially devised by a surgeon in a fishing club: "Hey, where’d you learn that knot?"   "It’s the surgeon’s knot."

I do hope that this isn’t the case! My researches would really go down the plug hole, were it so. The mind boggles at the possibilities: the ‘bond traders’ hitch for tying up your mule; the ‘gynaecologists twist’ for wire shock tippets; the ‘lawyers loop’ (not safe; too slippery!) ….. the possibilities are endless. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

<all the good stuff snipped (this is going to get confusing).

Funny thing about knots; while I’ve never had any trouble tying them, talking about them has always made my head spin.  Reading back through this thread I find myself getting a bit dizzy. TL!

Response:

Tony; After giving the matter some more thought I believe I can clear up how, if not when, the knot we use to tie on tippet became known as the "surgeon’s knot".

<rest snipped and neatly tied off with a surgeon’s knot… Your description is right Wolfgang.  As a Vascular and Thoracic surgeon, I think I can speak with some knowledge on such things  Basically, a surgeon’s knot is a reef knot, usually tied with one hand against the held-out strand of the other end of the ‘thread’.  The double-throw variant is also used for extra security when needed. By that, I mean TWICE round instead of once per layer as in the simple reef knot.   Usually, the reef knot is extended by several more ‘throws’ however – it is not common to use just the two throws, or layers.  Many surgical suture materials are monofilament and slippery, to aid in passing through tissues without cutting through, so they tend to slip when knotted, therefore most surgeons would tie at least 5 throws in these materials, with perhaps 3 in braided materials that slip less. There are obviously numerous variations also, such as deliberately tying a ‘granny’ knot – both throws in the same direction rather than opposite directions – so that the knot can be ’snugged’ down while still having some friction, then finishing off with a throw in the opposite direction to lock the knot. The "Surgeon’s Knot" as described in the fishing books is nothing like a ‘real’ surgeon’s knot.  I don’t know how it got its name. — Pete, Brisbane, Australia To reply by email, remove the "SPAMLESS" from the address in the header.

Response:

I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers. In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted. My difficulty is that the modern appellation of this knot as the ’surgeons knot’ seems to be relatively modern. Practising surgeons (non-anglers) stare at you blankly when you show them this knot. The great American authority on knots, the late Prof. Cyrus Lawrence Day, shows a completely different knot in his ‘The Art of Knotting and Splicing’. The surgeon’s knot Day shows looks more akin to a ‘reef knot’ (’square knot’), except that there are two turns of the strands on the top and bottom edges of the knot (when viewed as normally tied). At present, I am inclined to think that ’surgeon’s knot’ (for what the term is currently, popularly, understood to mean) is a relatively modern appropriation (misappropriation) of the name. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ordinarily, a square knot is tied by making an overhand knot and then following it with another, making sure that the second is opposed to the first; left over right and then right over left (repeating left over right or right over left twice will result in a granny knot, notorious for slipping).  In making sutures, the suture material is wound once or twice around the needle holder which is then used to grasp the tag end and pull it through the loop.  When the material is wound twice around the needle holder the result is still an overhand knot; the ends merely twist around each other twice rather than the usual once.  In order to finish the square knot a surgeon repeats the process being careful to wind the material in the opposite direction from the first time.

Very interesting Wolfgang. What you have described is exactly the ’surgeon’s knot’, as described by Cyrus Day, as I cited in my original post. That’s good for me, because it supports the current use of the name for that particular knot (i.e., a ’square knot’ with two twists along each edge). Your earlier post, re. the ‘water knot’ you have used in climbing and the method of its construction is exactly that described by Day in his book. I suspect that the single overhand ‘water knot’ was adequate as an angler’s knot in the days of horsehair. The two, three and four turn versions were clearly developed to produce a safe knot when using the slippery synthetic line materials that came along later. Going back to the ’surgeon’s knot’, you mentioned the ‘granny knot’ as being unsafe cf. the ’square knot’ (which in Britain we more usually call the ‘reef knot’). In the 1991 edition of ‘Practical Fishing Knots’, by Sosin and Kreh, the authors describe what they call the ’simple blood knot’. This is nothing like a normal ‘blood knot’, but is slightly similar to the real ’surgeons knot’ as you described (this is going to get confusing). The big difference is that it is in fact a ‘granny knot’, but with seven twists along the two parallel edges of the box. It looks odd, but Sosin and Kreh claim nearly 100% knot efficiency for it. Thanks for the posts: interesting, but doesn’t really get me closer to tracking down when the two turn ‘water knot’ started being called the ’surgeons knot’. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers.

If you’d be satisfied with a guess, the name could have originated simply because it was a knot initially devised by a surgeon in a fishing club: "Hey, where’d you learn that knot?"   "It’s the surgeon’s knot."   Even in that context, it could still have origins in medical usage while not necessarily keeping its surgical configuration.   If you get a real answer, please share it. Joe F.

Response:

Hi Tony :   The Surgeon’s knot is the ones described by the other people in their replies, as a double and then a stacked set of two single throws that is used to close an incision. The knot that we use to tie on leaders etc. that we call a surgeon’s knot is also used to join Rib Stitch cord that is used to hold the cloth covering onto an airplane wing when the stitcher has misjudged the length and needs a bit more to finish the rib correctly.   Just thought that you might find it of interest.    Jim Rahn    Guelph, Ontario,    Canada – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers. In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted. My difficulty is that the modern appellation of this knot as the ’surgeons knot’ seems to be relatively modern. Practising surgeons (non-anglers) stare at you blankly when you show them this knot. The great American authority on knots, the late Prof. Cyrus Lawrence Day, shows a completely different knot in his ‘The Art of Knotting and Splicing’. The surgeon’s knot Day shows looks more akin to a ‘reef knot’ (’square knot’), except that there are two turns of the strands on the top and bottom edges of the knot (when viewed as normally tied). At present, I am inclined to think that ’surgeon’s knot’ (for what the term is currently, popularly, understood to mean) is a relatively modern appropriation (misappropriation) of the name. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Tony; After giving the matter some more thought I believe I can clear up how, if not when, the knot we use to tie on tippet became known as the "surgeon’s knot". In addition to climbing rock and replacing more tippet than I care to think about, I have also done some surgical procedures on rats, and a great deal of woodworking. As a result of the woodworking I have had sutures put into every one of my fingers at one time or another. Having watched the procedure so often I know that the knots surgeons use are the same as the ones I use on rats; they are in fact simple square knots.  A square knot is, or course, simply two stacked overhand knots.  Ordinarily, a square knot is tied by making an overhand knot and then following it with another, making sure that the second is opposed to the first; left over right and then right over left (repeating left over right or right over left twice will result in a granny knot, notorious for slipping).  In making sutures, the suture material is wound once or twice around the needle holder which is then used to grasp the tag end and pull it through the loop.  When the material is wound twice around the needle holder the result is still an overhand knot; the ends merely twist around each other twice rather than the usual once.  In order to finish the square knot a surgeon repeats the process being careful to wind the material in the opposite direction from the first time. When two (or possibly even more) turns are taken around the needle holder before drawing tight it is exactly the same procedure as we perform in tying on tippet material.  The only real difference is that the surgeon performs this procedure on a single strand as opposed to the two that we use in making the "surgeon’s knot."  A casual observer would easily be fooled into thinking that the fisherman and the surgeon are doing exactly the same thing.  The error is almost certainly compounded by the fact that many of us use a hemostat to help tie our knot in the stream.  Not only is the process the same, we even use the same (to the untrained eye) tool. Sound plausible?

Response:

Wolfgang, Your description of how to tie the knot during surgery is correct. The surgeon’s knot is a knot that uses a self-retaining frictional hitch for the first throw. The two wraps in the first throw create more friction between the strands so that tissue layers that want to pull apart are held in apposition while the second throw is placed. A variant on this theme is to do three wraps on the first throw if there is a lot of tension between the tissue edges. However, the subsequent wrap is then two throws instead of one so the knot will not be too assymetric (which creates problems with knot security). The surgeon’s knot is only used when there is sufficient tension to pull the edges you are trying to appose apart while you are doing the second throw, otherwise suturing is done with a square knot (there are some caveats to this generality). I suspect that the flyfishing surgeon’s knot was given that name because it visually resembles the surgeon’s knot used for suturing (even though its structure is totally different). My guess is that it was named by someone with some familiarity with it in the medical context. However, I would be surprised if it was a surgeon since it is a different knot and surgeons are somewhat picky about naming knots and suture patterns. Cheers. Jon McAnulty

Response:

<snip In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted.

<snip I’m not sure I can help you on this one Tony; in fact, I may muddy the waters a bit more.  I’ve done a bit of rock climbing over the years and used what climbers refer to as a water knot to form loops in webbing or to join two pieces of webbing together (webbing is tubular woven nylon which has been pressed flat).  The climber’s water knot starts with a simple overhand knot tied near the end of a piece of webbing.  To make a loop, the other end is pushed back through the overhand knot following (in reverse) the path of the original end. Tying two pieces of webbing together is done in exactly the same fashion.  The only difference is that one uses the ends of two pieces rather than both ends of one piece.  The effect is essentially the same as the fisherman’s ’surgeon’s knot’ except that there is only one turn as opposed to the three or four used in the surgeon’s knot.  So, at bottom, the only real difference between the two knots is the number of turns taken, unless one thinks that the method of tying is significant.  The water knot used by climbers is the same as the surgeon’s knot used by fishermen.  Of course, I don’t know whether the climber’s water knot is the same as the one you made reference to. Hope this helps. TL.

Response:

Question:

John, garlic is good for keeping people away, but doesn’t work on mosquitoes. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

     Sorry, but it does work. Smoking does also. Mosquettos like all other blood sucking insects home in on the carbon dioxide animals exhale, humans included. This is a known fact. It is also known that some perfumes including aftershave cause reactions among stinging insects. I suggest you research the subject a bit more. If you buy honey from a bee keeper ask what after shave he uses before working the hives. I’ve had, on occasion to work hives at night, moving them. Besides the usual precautions such as proper smoking of the hive and easy sure movements: tail lights are used for elumination and a weight on the brake pedal is best. Reason-bees cannot see red light. By the way Before I developed an allergy to bee stings I kept bees and would innoculate myself each spring with 3 or 4 stings. Even after the hives were calmed with smoke I never breathed directly on the frames of bees it would agitate them. I never used perfumed soaps or deoderant or aftershave for the same reason.                                                         John Popp                                                       in Sanford Fl.

Response:

My experience with this goes back about 15 years ago, BC (before children).  My best buddy and I were AVID backpackers, taking two one week trips and at least 4 long weekenders a year in the Sierras, mostly between 8,000 and 10,500 elevations. These were all summer and fall trips, and the mosquitos were brutal- the only saving grace was they were so big, you’d either see their lights or hear the landing gear dropping as they came in on you! =8^) But seriously folks…..when we went out for a week at a time, and KNEW we’d never see anyone else that we cared if we offended or not, we would start taking garlic OIL capsules two days before our trip and take them daily with every meal until two days before we came back out into the real world again.  We had little if any problem with mosquitos on these trips, but did carry Cutter’s or OFF with us in the event of an unusually persistent swarm. Believe you me though, YOU WILL REEK all the while it’s in your system…you sweat it out bigtime and that’s why it keeps them off of you.  When we returned and it was washtime for the trail clothes and sleeping bag…they STUNK of garlic something fierce. I think you may need to experiment with how much to use, everybody’s different, but make sure it’s the kind of garlic oil capsules that have the odor..some of them don’t. Larry #:)#

Response:

[snip] Blood sucking varmits are attracted by carbon dioxide, masking your exhalation with garlic does work as does smoking.

CO2 has no odor, but if you eat enough garlic you can smell it on your skin. As for smoking, I expect it’s the odor on your clothes that does it, not your breath. — Charlie…

Response:

An interesting argument John, you state the fact that mosquitoes are attracted by carbon dioxide as if that proved garlic worked and wind up discussing bees.  I think I will just stick to my Cutter’s mosquito repellent.:-) — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John, garlic is good for keeping people away, but doesn’t work on mosquitoes. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh      Sorry, but it does work. Smoking does also. Mosquettos like all other blood sucking insects home in on the carbon dioxide animals exhale, humans included. This is a known fact. It is also known that some perfumes including aftershave cause reactions among stinging insects. I suggest you research the subject a bit more. If you buy honey from a bee keeper ask what after shave he uses before working the hives. I’ve had, on occasion to work hives at night, moving them. Besides the usual precautions such as proper smoking of the hive and easy sure movements: tail lights are used for elumination and a weight on the brake pedal is best. Reason-bees cannot see red light. By the way Before I developed an allergy to bee stings I kept bees and would innoculate myself each spring with 3 or 4 stings. Even after the hives were calmed with smoke I never breathed directly on the frames of bees it would agitate them. I never used perfumed soaps or deoderant or aftershave for the same reason.                                                         John Popp                                                       in Sanford Fl.

Response:

writes It is recomended to crunch whole garlic cloves however it must be done at the beginning of a long weekend when your wife or girlfriend or both are out of town.

Hi John, why not start chewing on Thursday, that will guarantee the ladies will be out of town at the weekend. No more snakes I hope?  Regards, — Bill

Response:

An interesting argument John, you state the fact that mosquitoes are attracted by carbon dioxide as if that proved garlic worked and wind up discussing bees.  I think I will just stick to my Cutter’s mosquito repellent.:-) — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

      Sorry about the digression, it was offered as other little known facts of insect behavior from personal experience. If cutters works for you that is fine. The question was "does garlic work and why". The answers were "yes" and "through masking of cabon dioxide in the breath." . This is also true of noseeums (sand gnats).                                                           John Popp                                                         in Sanford Fl.

Response:

[snip] Blood sucking varmits are attracted by carbon dioxide, masking your exhalation with garlic does work as does smoking. CO2 has no odor, but if you eat enough garlic you can smell it on your skin. As for smoking, I expect it’s the odor on your clothes that does it, not your breath. — Charlie…

     There is no DETECTED odor (by humans). However the noseeum plague that has recently affected Fl. school yards has prompted studies that concluded "sand ghnates are attracted by carbon dioxide exhalations" a means has been developed whereby a microb emitting carbondioxide is used in traps around school yards to attract and trap the insects. It worked, it was also found that the traps contained mesquitos also, due to the same olfactory stimuli.      It is an asumption on my part that the masking of the breath is the reason garlic or smoking work. It is however a plausable conclusion when if biting insects are bothering me, I light up and they go away as has happened many times as has chewing a few sections of garlic cloves before beginning mowing where I know there are gnats or mesquitos. I’m never bothered and don’t feel like a greased pig.                                                            John Popp                                                         in Sanford Fl.

Response:

John, garlic is good for keeping people away, but doesn’t work on mosquitoes. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh      Sorry, but it does work. Smoking does also. Mosquettos like all other blood sucking insects home in on the carbon dioxide animals exhale, humans included.

I am sorry, but I disagree.  If this is the case, Koreans, Greek, and Italians who love garlic will never get bitten by mosquitos or will never get married. Garlic is not a good repelent.  Smoking, on the other hand is a fairly good method of keeping people and mosquitos away.  If you are not a smoker, however, you should stick to good old chemical repelent. Kanghoon Lee

Response:

[deleted] I am sorry, but I disagree.  If this is the case, Koreans, Greek, and Italians who love garlic will never get bitten by mosquitos or will never get married. Garlic is not a good repelent.

[deleted] Ya don’t eat it Kanghoon…you light it on fire and throw it at the little bastards… — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] I am sorry, but I disagree.  If this is the case, Koreans, Greek, and Italians who love garlic will never get bitten by mosquitos or will never get married. Garlic is not a good repelent. [deleted] Ya don’t eat it Kanghoon…you light it on fire and throw it at the little bastards… — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

You mean, use it just like a stink bomb?  I never thought of that Thanks. Kanghoon

Response:

Anything that deters the moeskeeters must be worth a try — Regards Peter

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -While garlic may well work, anything with  deet works better than any natural repellent etc. deet interfere with the CO2 receptors of the moskeeter’s.

Response:

Do you want Garlic or do you want the best ? While garlic may well work, anything with  deet works better than any natural repellent etc. deet interfere with the CO2 receptors of the moskeeter’s.

Response:

Do you want Garlic or do you want the best ? While garlic may well work, anything with  deet works better than any natural repellent etc. deet interfere with the CO2 receptors of the moskeeter’s.

Its also a known carcinogen. I love the stuff, but if garlic works (and its good for your heart)…. I’ll bite (bad pun)

Response:

It works great for vampires, too.  I’ve been using it for two years now and still haven’t been bitten!! Ed

Response:

It works great for vampires, too.  I’ve been using it for two years now and still haven’t been bitten!!

Ah! but have you been out at night, fishing for sea trout? Bewaaaare! The Vampire Coachman will get you. — Bill

Response:

[snip] Blood sucking varmits are attracted by carbon dioxide, masking your exhalation with garlic does work as does smoking.

Hi All, A friend of mine that lives in BC doesn’t have a problem with mosquitos himself. They bite him and nothing happens?  I guess he is not effected by the anti- coagulants that they inject into you so they can keep the blood flowing. I guess the itchy bumps that we get are a reaction to the anti-coagulants? I like to stop in Williams, CA, just off Hwy I5, about an hour north of Sacramento for a garlic fix! We stop at Luie Ciro’s(sp) in the town of Williams for some of the best Italian food in the area. They have what they call ‘Luie Bread’. It is baked French bread with about a 1/2" of chopped fresh garlic on top. Wow, what a smell! Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

I would welcome information from anyone with views on whether garlic keeps away mosquitoes.  I have heard from several sources that it works, and have read that the British Army give garlic capsules to their troops in Belize.  However, I am always sceptical about these remedies until enough people provide some type of proof.  For a while people said that Vitamin B 12 was effective; but I feel that if it truly was, then we would all know by now.   If someone has had experience of the effectiveness of garlic, then I would be keen to know if they think that the capsules are as effective as the real thing. John www.travelbooks.co.uk www.cheapflights.co.uk —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would welcome information from anyone with views on whether garlic keeps away mosquitoes.  I have heard from several sources that it works, and have read that the British Army give garlic capsules to their troops in Belize.  However, I am always sceptical about these remedies until enough people provide some type of proof.  For a while people said that Vitamin B 12 was effective; but I feel that if it truly was, then we would all know by now. If someone has had experience of the effectiveness of garlic, then I would be keen to know if they think that the capsules are as effective as the real thing. John www.travelbooks.co.uk www.cheapflights.co.uk —

     It is also said to keep away vampires and definatly keeps people out of your private space. Blood sucking varmits are attracted by carbon dioxide, masking your exhalation with garlic does work as does smoking. Here in florida "no seeums" are really bad during dry seasons but I am not bothered by them due to my smoking. Garlic will do wonders for your colesteral count and inhibit the pesky little critters. It is recomended to crunch whole garlic cloves however it must be done at the beginning of a long weekend when your wife or girlfriend or both are out of town.                                                     John Popp                                                   in Sanford Fl.

Response:

John, garlic is good for keeping people away, but doesn’t work on mosquitoes. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would welcome information from anyone with views on whether garlic keeps away mosquitoes.  I have heard from several sources that it works, and have read that the British Army give garlic capsules to their troops in Belize.  However, I am always sceptical about these remedies until enough people provide some type of proof.  For a while people said that Vitamin B 12 was effective; but I feel that if it truly was, then we would all know by now.   If someone has had experience of the effectiveness of garlic, then I would be keen to know if they think that the capsules are as effective as the real thing. John www.travelbooks.co.uk www.cheapflights.co.uk —

Response:

Question:

: Another nice place is when you go into Idaho from Montana over the Lolo : Pass. Yes, but now everybody goes there.  Sheesh, like 2 or 3 people a week. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: Well Rick, I can’t find my map just yet but I would have to believe : that the creek is just north of Galena Summit.  At least I think that : is what it is called.  It is the pass between Ketchum and Stanley.   Nice try, I know the area a little, but it is not the spot I was talking about.  Where would the lake be for the town I said reminded me of Tahoe? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

That would be the place where Jacob’s Ladder and the Golf Course are?   X fork of the Y? — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy  * http://www.avicom.net/sandy  */

Response:

Another nice place is when you go into Idaho from Montana over the Lolo Pass. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail GIVE MY FLY FISHING BOOKS A NEW HOME Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let us all remember there are still amazing and beautiful places we can discover.  The whole damn point of this goofy post is to motivate you to get out a map and go looking. Stop motivating me, please!  I’ve already got a whole pile of maps and books about Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho, BC, Alaska, New Zealand, and Patagonia (along with a collection of books and CDs about self-taught Spanish).  I racked up 1000 miles on my truck last weekend, and 35 miles on my tennis shoes seeking out some of the places on those maps.  The last thing I need is someone motivating me to buy another damned map! Stop it! — -Wayne Trzyna                           Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition Email).  http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna    See http://www.cauce.org/

Response:

: Well Rick, I can’t find my map just yet but I would have to believe : that the creek is just north of Galena Summit.  At least I think that : is what it is called.  It is the pass between Ketchum and Stanley.   Nice try, I know the area a little, but it is not the spot I was talking about.  Where would the lake be for the town I said reminded me of Tahoe?

I guess the Salmon comment must have had me looking South instead of North.  Perhaps I should have been looking more towards Sandpoint. Gotta go, I am headed up to Red Ives and some (hopefully) hungry cutts. Marty P.E.T.A (People for the Ethical Termination of Antihunters)

Response:

20 miles of *the* place where the 2-5 pounders are found. That spot is below a small damn, and is on a river that to my knowledge, was the last river in the US to be successfully rafted [in] 1975. the section of the river I am talking about with the 2-5 pounders is in a

stretch of the river – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -where a canoe can easily navigate and is above the nasty part. Further, this spot is on one of the two major N-S highways in the state. It is not in the part of Idaho I usually write about. It is near a town where I thought, "wow… this is exactly what Tahoe looked like 20 years ago." It is in a valley with its floor at about 5000 feet. Near the spring creek, I was able to step across one of the (former) greatest salmon spawning rivers in the US. This place where I was able to step across this river is at least 600 miles from the ocean. I then drove to a spot on this same river where I was not able to throw a rock across it (because it is over 100 yards wide.) This river collects a *lot* of very pure water on its trip to the ocean.

Lot’s of rich facts, and I’m sure with a little sluething, the location of this spring creek is quite detectable. Of course, in trying to figure out where this gem of a spring creek is, your eyes would be pouring over the locations of more good fishing water than you could possibly cover. Mitch

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: If your route takes you across the Panhandle of Idaho try the Locsha along US : 12.   OK, fish the Lochsa of you must, but stay away from its sister river, the Selway.  That is one crappy river.  In fact, although few know it, it is probably the crappiest trout stream in the US.  It is a looooooser. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: I apologize, I left out some important detail.  By W Idaho I ment Boise, : and the fastest route takes me through East Idaho.  That does take me : past the streams that I mentioned.  The Panhandle route to Boise would : be longer, but more scenic.  Thanks for the information. Boise is south Idaho. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Try the beaverhead in southwest montana just outside of dillon.  Fish near the dam on Clark Canyon resevoir.  Big, Big BIG fish.  Usually crowded but easy access for an afternoon of fishing.  Did I mention big fish? Matthew           Matthew W Kaphan    http://home.sprintmail.com/~mwk            Silverdale, WA

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"THE ROOT!!!" If you are in Helena….. ya better swing down to Hamilton and fish the  "Bitterroot!!" "The most under rated river in Montana" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be making a car trip the week of 7/13 to visit relatives.  We will be driving from Helena MT to W Idaho.  Since I am the only fisherman in my family I won’t have as much time to spend fishing as I would like.  If you had a half a day where would you go?  Henry’s Fork, Gallatin, Beaverhead, Madison, Big Hole?  There are possible routes that take me past all of these.  I will probably avoid YNP (except West Yellowstone), to much out the way.  I would prefer stream fishing to still water and big fish aren’t important, I am an intermediate level FF. Joe Wax If you drive from Helena to Western Idaho you won’t be fishing any of the streams listed above.  I assume you mean eastern Idaha and SW Montana.  If your route takes you across the Panhandle of Idaho try the Locsha along US 12.  If you did mean eastern Idaho go ahead and fish the Madison and the Gallatin.  Both are good this time of year.  The weather has finally warmed up a bit and by the middle of the month it should be perfect.  If you like a challange try the Henry’s Fork.  Any shop in West Yellowstone can give you current conditions. Doug — Doug & Tammy Stephens Bear Lake Valley, Idaho

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Having read many posts from this self-styled non-potato farmer, I read this as high praise for the Selway and I am adding it to my Summer ‘98 itinerary.  Personally, I’ve never done well on the Lochsa. Phil Holt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : If your route takes you across the Panhandle of Idaho try the Locsha along US : 12. OK, fish the Lochsa of you must, but stay away from its sister river, the Selway.  That is one crappy river.  In fact, although few know it, it is probably the crappiest trout stream in the US.  It is a looooooser. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: Having read many posts from this self-styled non-potato farmer, I read this as high praise for the : Selway and I am adding it to my Summer ‘98 itinerary.  Personally, I’ve never done well on the Lochsa. I am no farmer.  That dot at the end is a period, so the sentence should read, "I am no farmer period."  Potatoes or anything else. Having straightened that out… See?  I told you the Lochsa was crummy and now I am telling you the Selway is even crummier. But on another note… I found a new stream today.  (Can anyone really believe it?)  It is a spring creek, comes complete with one of those pipes coming out of the side of a hill where people stop and fill up their water jugs.  I saw it from the road, and simply dropped over the side and walked it aways.  Lots of clearly visible trout is "gin clear" water (added to piss Tim off.)  Big fish too.  Not on a major road, but on a paved road.  (Should be easy to find since Idaho only has about 5.)  Absolutely nobody on the 10 miles of water I checked out. Odd… I thought.  On the road, big, easily spotted fish and no fisherfolk.  While I was standing around, looking like a non-potato farmer, three people on horseback rode up.  (Yep, real people, not dude ranchers or anything like that.  Just normal Idaho people, doing what Idaho people often do on a Sunday.  When they are not growing spuds, that is.)  So I asked, and they answered… nobody fishes that creek they said. And then I realized why.  First, publicity is not our strong suit.  (You probably didn’t even know that the odds are 50% that the McD’s french fry you ate last week is really a Idaho fry.  See, we don’t tell.)  Second, and this is  probably the real reason, I saw a group of people in the town closest  to this creek routinely pulling out 2-5 pounders at a location that *is*  right on a major road.  The folks who want to meat fish, must drive by this location to get to the spring creek I’m not telling you about.  And this ain’t no fish story… 2-5 pounders if they want them.  The third reason is that this is not "fly-fishing" territory.  Slimy wriggly things are the bait of choice. OK, pull out those maps.  One hint is that the spring creek is within 20 miles of the place where the 2-5 pounders are found.  That spot is below a small damn, and is on a river that to my knowledge, was the last river in the US to be successfully rafted.  I mean nobody was able to remain in a watercraft over the entire length of the river until 1975. Can you blieve that?  1975.  It is an amazing river.  (OK, perhaps that clue will help only Jon M.)   One other thing, the section of the river I am talking about with the 2-5 pounders is in a stretch of the river where a canoe can easily navigate and is above the nasty part.  Further, this spot is on one of the two major N-S highways in the state.  It is not in the part of Idaho I usually write about.  It is near a town where I thought, "wow… this is exactly what Tahoe looked like 20 years ago."  It is in a valley with its floor at about 5000 feet. OK, one other clue.  Near the spring creek, I was able to step across one of the (former) greatest salmon spawning rivers in the US.  To my knowledge, it is the farthest an ocean dwelling salmon swims (in the US) to spawn.  This place where I was able to step across this river is at least 600 miles from the ocean.  (Wow!  Some fish.)  I then drove to a spot on this same river where I was not able to throw a rock across it (because it is over 100 yards wide.)  This river collects a *lot* of very pure water on its trip to the ocean.   OK, that is Idaho trivia for today.  If you have an idea of the general location, let me know and I will tell you details if you are correct. I was more moved at finding this creek than I care to admit to you.  It is really amazing if you pause to consider it.  Let us all remember there are still amazing and beautiful places we can discover.  The whole damn point of this goofy post is to motivate you to get out a map and go looking. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Knock it off, Rick.  This is cruel.

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Another reason I made this post was to give a little notice just what a great part of the world Idaho is.  I’ve lived in Colorado, N. California and Washington, all are great places.  But I have not seen the beautiful, rugged, unspoiled and isolated country within the Idaho borders.   Take out a good map and look for yourself.  It is awesome. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

I will be making a car trip the week of 7/13 to visit relatives.  We will be driving from Helena MT to W Idaho.  Since I am the only fisherman in my family I won’t have as much time to spend fishing as I would like.  If you had a half a day where would you go?  Henry’s Fork, Gallatin, Beaverhead, Madison, Big Hole?  There are possible routes that take me past all of these.  I will probably avoid YNP (except West Yellowstone), to much out the way.  I would prefer stream fishing to still water and big fish aren’t important, I am an intermediate level FF. Joe Wax

  Joe Just now got home from the Madison. Last week snowed on my sorry ass , river up and off color. This week, cleared and dropped. Fishing was very good both weeks and the night I was to leave caddis where on the bloom. Firehole fished well  PMD’s. The fork between the falls was Hm  (Rained every day I was there and snowed twice to beat the band. Fish where everywhere …..good trip, wet and cold but good fishing) "You can tell when I’m being facetious because I use subliminal smileys."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -But on another note… I found a new stream today.  (Can anyone really believe it?)  It is a spring creek, comes complete with one of those pipes coming out of the side of a hill where people stop and fill up their water jugs.  I saw it from the road, and simply dropped over the side and walked it aways.  Lots of clearly visible trout is "gin clear" water (added to piss Tim off.)  Big fish too.  Not on a major road, but on a paved road.  (Should be easy to find since Idaho only has about 5.)  Absolutely nobody on the 10 miles of water I checked out. Odd… I thought.  On the road, big, easily spotted fish and no fisherfolk.  While I was standing around, looking like a non-potato farmer, three people on horseback rode up.  (Yep, real people, not dude ranchers or anything like that.  Just normal Idaho people, doing what Idaho people often do on a Sunday.  When they are not growing spuds, that is.)  So I asked, and they answered… nobody fishes that creek they said. And then I realized why.  First, publicity is not our strong suit.  (You probably didn’t even know that the odds are 50% that the McD’s french fry you ate last week is really a Idaho fry.  See, we don’t tell.)  Second, and this is  probably the real reason, I saw a group of people in the town closest  to this creek routinely pulling out 2-5 pounders at a location that *is*  right on a major road.  The folks who want to meat fish, must drive by this location to get to the spring creek I’m not telling you about.  And this ain’t no fish story… 2-5 pounders if they want them.  The third reason is that this is not "fly-fishing" territory.  Slimy wriggly things are the bait of choice. OK, pull out those maps.  One hint is that the spring creek is within 20 miles of the place where the 2-5 pounders are found.  That spot is below a small damn, and is on a river that to my knowledge, was the last river in the US to be successfully rafted.  I mean nobody was able to remain in a watercraft over the entire length of the river until 1975. Can you blieve that?  1975.  It is an amazing river.  (OK, perhaps that clue will help only Jon M.)   One other thing, the section of the river I am talking about with the 2-5 pounders is in a stretch of the river where a canoe can easily navigate and is above the nasty part.  Further, this spot is on one of the two major N-S highways in the state.  It is not in the part of Idaho I usually write about.  It is near a town where I thought, "wow… this is exactly what Tahoe looked like 20 years ago."  It is in a valley with its floor at about 5000 feet. OK, one other clue.  Near the spring creek, I was able to step across one of the (former) greatest salmon spawning rivers in the US.  To my knowledge, it is the farthest an ocean dwelling salmon swims (in the US) to spawn.  This place where I was able to step across this river is at least 600 miles from the ocean.  (Wow!  Some fish.)  I then drove to a spot on this same river where I was not able to throw a rock across it (because it is over 100 yards wide.)  This river collects a *lot* of very pure water on its trip to the ocean.   OK, that is Idaho trivia for today.  If you have an idea of the general location, let me know and I will tell you details if you are correct. I was more moved at finding this creek than I care to admit to you.  It is really amazing if you pause to consider it.  Let us all remember there are still amazing and beautiful places we can discover.  The whole damn point of this goofy post is to motivate you to get out a map and go looking.

Well Rick, I can’t find my map just yet but I would have to believe that the creek is just north of Galena Summit.  At least I think that is what it is called.  It is the pass between Ketchum and Stanley.  It is also, I believe, the divide between the Big Wood River and the Middle Fork of the Salmon River. This is spectacular country.  I honeymooned there with my wife(of course) but sadly, I didn’t take my fly rod.  Maybe next time I’m there I will have it. Marty P.E.T.A (People for the Ethical Termination of Antihunters)

Response:

I will be making a car trip the week of 7/13 to visit relatives.  We will be driving from Helena MT to W Idaho.  Since I am the only fisherman in my family I won’t have as much time to spend fishing as I would like.  If you had a half a day where would you go?  Henry’s Fork, Gallatin, Beaverhead, Madison, Big Hole?  There are possible routes that take me past all of these.  I will probably avoid YNP (except West Yellowstone), to much out the way.  I would prefer stream fishing to still water and big fish aren’t important, I am an intermediate level FF. Joe Wax

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I will be making a car trip the week of 7/13 to visit relatives.  We will be driving from Helena MT to W Idaho.  Since I am the only fisherman in my family I won’t have as much time to spend fishing as I would like.  If you had a half a day where would you go?  Henry’s Fork, Gallatin, Beaverhead, Madison, Big Hole?  There are possible routes that take me past all of these.  I will probably avoid YNP (except West Yellowstone), to much out the way.  I would prefer stream fishing to still water and big fish aren’t important, I am an intermediate level FF. Joe Wax

If you drive from Helena to Western Idaho you won’t be fishing any of the streams listed above.  I assume you mean eastern Idaha and SW Montana.  If your route takes you across the Panhandle of Idaho try the Locsha along US 12.  If you did mean eastern Idaho go ahead and fish the Madison and the Gallatin.  Both are good this time of year.  The weather has finally warmed up a bit and by the middle of the month it should be perfect.  If you like a challange try the Henry’s Fork.  Any shop in West Yellowstone can give you current conditions. Doug — Doug & Tammy Stephens Bear Lake Valley, Idaho

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I’ve fished both SW Montana and Western Idaho.  i really enjoyed the Big Hole River between Wisdom and Wise River.  it’s accessible and wasn’t crowded at all.  you can go west from Wisdom and either head south into idaho or north a ways and then west into idaho over lolo pass.  Good luck.

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I’ve fished both SW Montana and Western Idaho.  i really enjoyed the Big Hole River between Wisdom and Wise River.  it’s accessible and wasn’t crowded at all.  you can go west from Wisdom and either head south into idaho or north a ways and then west into idaho over lolo pass.  Good luck.

No, No, the Wise and the BigHole are both over crowded and have no fish. The campgrounds are terrible and I believe there was a meltdown at a powerplant nearby.  Don’t go there!! Doug — Doug & Tammy Stephens Bear Lake Valley, Idaho

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be making a car trip the week of 7/13 to visit relatives.  We will be driving from Helena MT to W Idaho.  Since I am the only fisherman in my family I won’t have as much time to spend fishing as I would like.  If you had a half a day where would you go?  Henry’s Fork, Gallatin, Beaverhead, Madison, Big Hole?  There are possible routes that take me past all of these.  I will probably avoid YNP (except West Yellowstone), to much out the way.  I would prefer stream fishing to still water and big fish aren’t important, I am an intermediate level FF. Joe Wax If you drive from Helena to Western Idaho you won’t be fishing any of the streams listed above.  I assume you mean eastern Idaha and SW Montana.  If your route takes you across the Panhandle of Idaho try the Locsha along US 12.  If you did mean eastern Idaho go ahead and fish the Madison and the Gallatin.  Both are good this time of year.  The weather has finally warmed up a bit and by the middle of the month it should be perfect.  If you like a challange try the Henry’s Fork.  Any shop in West Yellowstone can give you current conditions. Doug — Doug & Tammy Stephens Bear Lake Valley, Idaho

I apologize, I left out some important detail.  By W Idaho I ment Boise, and the fastest route takes me through East Idaho.  That does take me past the streams that I mentioned.  The Panhandle route to Boise would be longer, but more scenic.  Thanks for the information. Joe Wax

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be making a car trip the week of 7/13 to visit relatives.  We will be driving from Helena MT to W Idaho.  Since I am the only fisherman in my family I won’t have as much time to spend fishing as I would like.  If you had a half a day where would you go?  Henry’s Fork, Gallatin, Beaverhead, Madison, Big Hole?  There are possible routes that take me past all of these.  I will probably avoid YNP (except West Yellowstone), to much out the way.  I would prefer stream fishing to still water and big fish aren’t important, I am an intermediate level FF. Joe Wax If you drive from Helena to Western Idaho you won’t be fishing any of the streams listed above.  I assume you mean eastern Idaha and SW Montana.  If your route takes you across the Panhandle of Idaho try the Locsha along US 12.  If you did mean eastern Idaho go ahead and fish the Madison and the Gallatin.  Both are good this time of year.  The weather has finally warmed up a bit and by the middle of the month it should be perfect.  If you like a challange try the Henry’s Fork.  Any shop in West Yellowstone can give you current conditions. Doug — Doug & Tammy Stephens Bear Lake Valley, Idaho I apologize, I left out some important detail.  By W Idaho I ment Boise, and the fastest route takes me through East Idaho.  That does take me past the streams that I mentioned.  The Panhandle route to Boise would be longer, but more scenic.  Thanks for the information. Joe Wax

Got it!  You may even try the Fall River south of Ashton on US 20.   Doug — Doug & Tammy Stephens Bear Lake Valley, Idaho

Response:

Let us all remember there are still amazing and beautiful places we can discover.  The whole damn point of this goofy post is to motivate you to get out a map and go looking.

Stop motivating me, please!  I’ve already got a whole pile of maps and books about Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho, BC, Alaska, New Zealand, and Patagonia (along with a collection of books and CDs about self-taught Spanish).  I racked up 1000 miles on my truck last weekend, and 35 miles on my tennis shoes seeking out some of the places on those maps.  The last thing I need is someone motivating me to buy another damned map! Stop it! — -Wayne Trzyna                           Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition  http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna    See http://www.cauce.org/

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Question:

I am driving from Boise ID. to Hamilton, then Butte, MT and then back to Boise in September.  I am looking for suggestions for fly fishing spots that are reasonably accessible, yet have decent action. I will be stopping in Stanley and Salmon. Thanks in advance. Mark.

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I am driving from Boise ID. to Hamilton, then Butte, MT and then back to Boise in September.  I am looking for suggestions for fly fishing spots that are reasonably accessible, yet have decent action. I will be stopping in Stanley and Salmon. Thanks in advance. Mark.

If you are at all into Still water, try Henry’s lake in eastern Id. BIG Trout this year, and Sep. is when the moss goes down.

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If you drive the Skalkaho road from Hamilton,  you will cross the Rock Creek Drainage and pass by Georgetown Lake.  Both should be very good in September (weather pemitting).  The Big Hole is usually good in fall also.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’m searching for a flyfishing desination that offers opportunity for large trout and stuff thats nearby for family to do while i fish. please email me with any idea you may have. thanks, mp Dear mp, You might consider the Jackson, Wyoming area. There are locations for larger trout and plenty of things to do for the rest of the family. — Bruce E. James, Webmaster Jack Dennis Outdoor Shop http://www.jacksonwy.com/jackdennis/

It depends where you want to go.  Ennis MT has a number of family recreation spots available while you fish the Madison River for big brown trout.  The family can visit Virginia City, MT, a turn of the century restoration; Lewis & Clark Caverns, a wonderful cave complex with tours; Yellowstone, which is about an hour away; etc.

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For my money and time, I’d fish the Green downstream from the Flaming Gorge damn in Utah. I fished there in May and July and had my best fishing experience there. Big and plentiful fish. Jerry G.

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i’m searching for a flyfishing desination that offers opportunity for large trout and stuff thats nearby for family to do while i fish. please email me with any idea you may have. thanks, mp

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit very good destinations are always depending on the season. Scotland (U.K.) has some magnificant flyfish rivers. Check out the Spey river in june or july …or the Tweed, Tay and Nith in the autumn. D.de Jong Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for "Drs. D. de Jong" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin:          vcard fn:             "Drs. D. de Jong" n:              ;"Drs. D. de Jong" x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end:            vcard

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Question:

[snip] Cat fishing there with a fly rod dead drifting a simple worm on the limestone shelves just below the dam at Waterville is probably some of the finest sport known. [snip] Is that really you, George – or is your shadow posting again? Didn’t you recently go ballistic over someone using fly gear with bait, George? Hypocrite, George??

_______HEY MAN, give me a little slack please. How can a boy be a hypocrite at the age of 12? George — MZ

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[snip] Cat fishing there with a fly rod dead drifting a simple worm on the limestone shelves just below the dam at Waterville is probably some of the finest sport known.

[snip] Is that really you, George – or is your shadow posting again? Didn’t you recently go ballistic over someone using fly gear with bait, George? Hypocrite, George??

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Steelhead in the Maumee River now?!!!  Along with the Walleye runs that have been showing up for the last 25 years?  I happen to know the Maumee River like no man alive.  I grew up on it.  Whitehouse, Waterville, Monclova, Ohio area.  Cat fishing there with a fly rod dead drifting a simple worm on the limestone shelves just below the dam at Waterville is probably some of the finest sport known.  Used to club carp there.  Has a lot of drop offs in order to get out there.  Ron Kinkaid in Whitehouse Ohio knows that area even better than me because he still fishes it and you forget things over the years.  The Maumee, named because a crying Indian baby at Turkey Foot Rock was whimpering ma-me, mau-me is how it was named . . . believe it or not.  All the General Anthony Wayne Signs are of my design and invention back in 1953 – 54.  The entire bust and hat and everything.  General Mad Anthony Wayne is the logo for Anthony Wayne High School where I graduated in 1954.  Went directly from H.S. into Flight Training for the U.S.A.F.  Was the first H.S. Graduate in the United States to qualify for fighter pilot school via Chanute Air Force Base in the United States.  I’m kind of proud of that Lee. Yah, I’m an old Buckeye Bronco from Ohio, you betcha!  Used to walk to school (Monclova Grade School) along Swan Creek everyday, even in the winter.  Loved it so.  Chuck Holloway still lives on that road along Swan Creek.  Good place to hunt Wood Duck when the season was in but now not so much as it is basically only a nesting area now, all the way down to Wreckerly Road and where the old county dump used to be, where I used to shoot rats with a .22 single shot.  Great sport!  Rat hunting. Lou Klewer, the ex-outdoor editor of the Toledo Blade lived on Wreckerly Road and I bought my first and most favorite rifle and caliber from Lou. A pre-64 Model 70 in the .220 Swift, which still is my most favorite of all calibers. If God said I had to settle for only one Rifle it would be the .220 Swift.  You betcha!  (Once again) Anyhow Lee, where in Toledo do you live?  I hope this post you aren’t bored with.  You just brought back memories.  I’ll be flying into Toledo Express this spring, a few more weeks or so away.  I have a brother living in Sylvania and Whitehouse, Ohio.  Plus, I always visit Ron Kinkaid.  He lives directly a cross the road from A.W. High School. Have to run Lee.  I knew there was something about you I liked. George Gehrke — MZ — MZ

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Question:

I’m Fly-Fishing the Alphabet, and have come up short on rivers beginning with O (probably a temporary oversight), Q, R, and Z. This is admittedly a daffy undertaking, but it’s better than the aimless wanderings of Fly Fishing America.   I  find that I’ve already fished most of the alphabet (Arkansas, Bighorn, Colorado, Dolores, Encampment, Fryingpan, Grande Ronde, Henry’s Fork, you get the picture). An "i" river was a problem, until I remembered the tiny Illinois River in northern Colorado. Any ideas for Q, X and Z? The Quinalt and Quillaute would do. Nice Sea run cutts in there right now.  Steelhead later.

Question!  Is it your goal to fish a stream for each letter of the alphabet or to catch fish from a stream for each letter of the alphabet? I once knew a fisherman who set out to fish every stream and lake in Montana.  Dont’t know if he made it or not but it would be fun trying. So much water, so little time. Jim

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: I once knew a fisherman who set out to fish every stream and lake : in Montana.  Dont’t know if he made it or not but it would be fun : trying. This little suggestion made my heart go floppa-floppa.  Not Montana, but this would be a *great* way to justify the hard trips to the interior of Idaho.   Wow.  Greeeeat suggestion! I have fished many of the "great" rivers of the west.  I don’t think I would miss much at all if I narrowed my focus to the rivers and streams of Idaho.   It would also make me feel better when I’m standing in a stream in the middle of a pasture with my line in the water and a speeding pickup goes cruising by at high speed with five guys screaming out the window and bed "You fool…there’s no fish left in there…"  I’ll have an excuse when they see me in the local tavern later that night. Perfect, a fishing version of Sissy Hankshaw.  I can see it now, casting a puddle because it is a body of water and it is there.  Perhaps my thumb will sprout a flyrod. Cool. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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the Quinipoxet river flows into the Wachusetts resevoir about 40 miles west of Boston.  it contains stocked brown and some native brook trout. Gerry

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the Quinipoxet river flows into the Wachusetts resevoir about 40 miles west of Boston.  it contains stocked brown and some native brook trout. Gerry

X & Z may require you to travel abroad. Not so bad an idea. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink

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: X & Z may require you to travel abroad. Not so bad an idea. Send me the money from one out of every 100 little bottles you sell and I’ll travel!<g  (That’s all I ask, one out overy hundred.) — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Quinn River, Nevada.      There are good browns in most of the river, and the fishing is improving. The Quinn River Allotment Management Plan is up for consideration until October 23, copies of which can be had from the Humboldt National Forest, 2035 Last Chance Rd., Elko, NV 89801. Alternative 4 will provide the best future fishing and is the preferred alternative. The river runs along the NV-OR border north of Winnemucca. Jim, Nevada Jim’s Outdoor Sports, Elko, NV Jim, Nevada Jim’s Outdoor Sports, Elko, NV

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I’m Fly-Fishing the Alphabet, and have come up short on rivers beginning with O (probably a temporary oversight), Q, R, and Z.

Try the Quitapahilla outside of Lancaster, PA.  This is still on my "to fish" list so I don’t know how well it fishes.  Directions are available in Dwight Landis’ Trout Streams of PA or Charlie Meck’s Pa Trout Streams and Their Hatches

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: I’m Fly-Fishing the Alphabet, and have come up short on rivers beginning : with O (probably a temporary oversight), Q, R, and Z. : This is admittedly a daffy undertaking, but it’s better than the aimless : wanderings of Fly Fishing America.   I  find that I’ve already fished most : of the alphabet (Arkansas, Bighorn, Colorado, Dolores, Encampment, : Fryingpan, Grande Ronde, Henry’s Fork, you get the picture). : An "i" river was a problem, until I remembered the tiny Illinois River in : northern Colorado. : Any ideas for Q, X and Z? These can all be handled in the PNW, but I’m not telling where.  You will enjoy searching the map, or just use the web and do a search with one of the map services or the Geological Survey. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I’m Fly-Fishing the Alphabet, and have come up short on rivers beginning with O (probably a temporary oversight), Q, R, and Z. This is admittedly a daffy undertaking, but it’s better than the aimless wanderings of Fly Fishing America.   I  find that I’ve already fished most of the alphabet (Arkansas, Bighorn, Colorado, Dolores, Encampment, Fryingpan, Grande Ronde, Henry’s Fork, you get the picture). An "i" river was a problem, until I remembered the tiny Illinois River in northern Colorado. Any ideas for Q, X and Z?

The Quinalt and Quillaute would do. Nice Sea run cutts in there right now.  Steelhead later.

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I’m Fly-Fishing the Alphabet, and have come up short on rivers beginning with O (probably a temporary oversight), Q, R, and Z. This is admittedly a daffy undertaking, but it’s better than the aimless wanderings of Fly Fishing America.   I  find that I’ve already fished most of the alphabet (Arkansas, Bighorn, Colorado, Dolores, Encampment, Fryingpan, Grande Ronde, Henry’s Fork, you get the picture). An "i" river was a problem, until I remembered the tiny Illinois River in northern Colorado. Any ideas for Q, X and Z?

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Question:

I will be in the Utica NY area later this week and was wondering if anyone had any info on the local streams.  My time is limited while I’m there so I’m looking for easy stream access and decent fishing in a single area.  Thanks for the help. Trip — 14 Mamaroneck Ave                                phone: 914/948-6200 x7515 White Plains, NY 10601                           fax:   914/948-6270

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Richard, without a doubt you will want to make a visit to the West Canada about 30 min from Utica. Rte.12 north to the Rte.8 (Poland) exit to Rte. 28, make a left on Rte.28. Go a few miles to a parking area on the right. Fish up or downstream of the bridge. Although most major hatches are over you may encounter sporadic cream variant (prior to dark) and definitely caddis (#14 tan, #18 black). There are always plenty of caddis and plenty of fish (browns). Water conditions have been excellent. Good luck and let me know how you make out.

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The West Canda Creek, 15 minutes north of Utica is a blue-ribbon trout stream with a section of "artificials-only". Its a fabulous trout stream, as good as anything isn the east, but not well known outside of the Utica area. I learned to fish on the WCC when I was about 8(40 yrs ago) and spent many a summer day there with my grandfather. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly I will be in the Utica NY area later this week and was wondering if anyone had any info on the local streams.  My time is limited while I’m there so I’m looking for easy stream access and decent fishing in a single area.  Thanks for the help. Trip — **** System Management ARTS                               email:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -14 Mamaroneck Ave                            phone: 914/948-6200 x7515 White Plains, NY 10601                               fax:   914/948-6270

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Question:

My wife and I attended a 4-day Orvis flyfishing class at Clearwater House in July five years ago.  We had Orvis instructors (Dan Gracia, who posts to this group, was one) rather than the Clearwater House guides, but the "hearsay" I have since picked up from time to time has been positive.  I can attest that the accomodations are nice, the location is great, and that when we were there the food was excellent.  If you go, please tell me how it turned out.                        Dopug Larson, Glendale, CA

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I also cannot say enough about Clearwater House.  I’ve stayed there three times before and have booked two classes there for the upcoming year.  The staff and guides are excellent!  The Area is beautiful, and the house itself has a terrific "homey" feeling.  If you’re thinking of staying there … do it! Kim Woodward – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you have stayed at the Clearwater House on Hat Creek, I would appreciate feedback regarding the guides, fishing experience, lodging and food. Thanks!  S. Brainerd

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(Sherry Brainerd) writes: If you have stayed at the Clearwater House on Hat Creek, I would appreciate feedback regarding the guides, fishing experience, lodging and food.

We run some of our schools at the Clearwater House and I have to tell you the place is first rate.  It’s basically a bed and breakfast type place that caters to fly fishers and serves all meals, not just breakfast.  Noel and company set entirely too good a table and the setting is really pretty – nestled in between Mt Shasta and Mt. Lassen.  Last year had a friendly raven (the bird) that would fly down to your feet and walk around with you for a while.  I reached out towards it and it tried to remove my wedding ring off of my finger with its beak.  Lot’s of wildlife such as deer, osprey, Canada geese, muskrat, otters, etc.  Good fishing is right out the back door and you can fish Hat Creek, The Pit River, Fall River, the McCloud River or float tube if you like up at Lake Manzanita.  Great spot.  All of Dick’s guides are top rate.  If you have a copy of the latest California Fly Fisher, the young lady on the cover is not quite as young as she looks.  Marishka is ~20 and went through Dick’s apprentice guide program a couple of years ago.  She still guides for him periodically and she is an accomplished fly fisher, fly tyer, and guide.  Don’t hesitate to ask about the various guides specialties as they bring a wide variety of techniques to fishing the available water.  I’ve actually stayed in the house twice in the last 5 years, and it’s a far cry from the "guides ghetto" (next to the their tackle shop) where I usually bunk.  It is the only Orvis Endorsed Lodge in California.  If you get a chance to go, GO! Don’t eat too much and watch out for that bottomless jar of homemade chocolate chip or oatmeal raisin cookies.                                                           Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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If you have stayed at the Clearwater House on Hat Creek, I would appreciate feedback regarding the guides, fishing experience, lodging and food. Thanks!  S. Brainerd

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If you have stayed at the Clearwater House on Hat Creek, I would appreciate feedback regarding the guides, fishing experience, lodging and food.

Nothing but good things to say about Dick Galland and Clearwater. I stayed there many years ago before the present arrangement (with cooking and all) but even then, thought the hospitality and advice was excellent. I see Dick occassionally when walking the path near his place while fishing the waters nearby.                 Draper, Utah Wherever you go….. There you will be

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Question:

The Rio Penasco between Cloudcroft and Artesia is a fine little trout stream.  Not very well known.  The Messilla Valley Flyfishers (a club from Las Cruces) manages the water and has negotiated access from owners.  Some really nice browns call it home. It should be within a couple of hours of El Paso.  We routinely fish it from Lubbock (4 hours in a fast car).  Give it a try it may be just what you want.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Xref: news.indirect.com rec.outdoors.fishing.fly:12250 Path: news.indirect.com!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.mega web.co m!newstf01.news.aol.com!uunet!prodigy.com!usenet Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY Lines: 7 Distribution: world NNTP-Posting-Host: inugap3.news.prodigy.com X-Newsreader: Version 1.2 I’m interested to know if anyone has ever fished on the GILA RIVER or in the GILA Wilderness.  I’m not a novice fisherman, but I’m living in El Paso Texas now and the flyfishing possibilities are limited.  I’v heard of the GILA RIVER but have never fished.  If anyone has any info on where to go fishing in New Mex besides the San Juan River, your help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks for your help!

I’ve never fished the Gila, but their are many streams worthy of a trip north. Just a few of them are: The Jemez, The Guadalupe, and the San Antonio, all of them within an hour and a half of Albuquerque. Other streams further North are the Pecos, Rio Grande, and the Red River below the hatchery.

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I’m interested to know if anyone has ever fished on the GILA RIVER or in the GILA Wilderness.  I’m not a novice fisherman, but I’m living in El Paso Texas now and the flyfishing possibilities are limited.  I’v heard of the GILA RIVER but have never fished.  If anyone has any info on where to go fishing in New Mex besides the San Juan River, your help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks for your help!

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