Question:

Boring?  Check out the lampoon’s sequel, Bored of the Rings, fun at first, but a bit overworked. That’s a book from the 60’s or 70’s, not a movie. But, no, I didn’t find the book boring.  Like any movie based on a great book, it never meats your expectations, but this one was so much better than Dune that I couldn’t muster a complaint, and I will see the next two. Chas Does anyone else think that the new Lord of the Rings movie is boring, in spite of the outstanding care and expertise that went into it ?    

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Response:

Boring?  Check out the lampoon’s sequel, Bored of the Rings, fun at first, but a bit overworked. That’s a book from the 60’s or 70’s, not a movie. But, no, I didn’t find the book boring.  Like any movie based on a great book, it never meats your expectations, but this one was so much better than Dune that I couldn’t muster a complaint, and I will see the next two.

Your use of Dune as an example of how a movie can disappoint the book reader is a good one. But there are two versions of Dune out there. The first one is about 2.5 hours with rumors of enough material on the cutting room floor to a) fill in the gaps for those who had not read the book and b) double its length. Then there’s the later version which IS about 5 hours in length and is much truer to the character types & plot development of the book. I somewhat enjoyed the first, but had to keep whispering to my wife about who that sudden new character was, why the seemingly arbitrary shifts in plot elelments, etc. The  second is far better both as cimematography and as book adaptation – but it’s not up there with Casablanca, Schindler’s List or The Wizard of Oz. Likewise the current 1/3 of LOTR; it’s fairly good entertainment but on the long haul only so-so. Yours in the north Maine woods, Pete Hilton aka The Ent — Second-ratedness, unfailing law of: Never be the first to try anything.    anon.

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It seemed to be more of a preteen movie. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boring?  Check out the lampoon’s sequel, Bored of the Rings, fun at first, but a bit overworked. That’s a book from the 60’s or 70’s, not a movie. But, no, I didn’t find the book boring.  Like any movie based on a great book, it never meats your expectations, but this one was so much better than Dune that I couldn’t muster a complaint, and I will see the next two. Your use of Dune as an example of how a movie can disappoint the book reader is a good one. But there are two versions of Dune out there. The first one is about 2.5 hours with rumors of enough material on the cutting room floor to a) fill in the gaps for those who had not read the book and b) double its length. Then there’s the later version which IS about 5 hours in length and is much truer to the character types & plot development of the book. I somewhat enjoyed the first, but had to keep whispering to my wife about who that sudden new character was, why the seemingly arbitrary shifts in plot elelments, etc. The  second is far better both as cimematography and as book adaptation – but it’s not up there with Casablanca, Schindler’s List or The Wizard of Oz. Likewise the current 1/3 of LOTR; it’s fairly good entertainment but on the long haul only so-so. Yours in the north Maine woods, Pete Hilton aka The Ent — Second-ratedness, unfailing law of: Never be the first to try anything.    anon.

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Yup. Instead of parts of the book, it WAS one cliffhanger after another. After four or five they began to run out of dramatic soundtrack…..but I will give them credit for the old college try….better than seeing it butchered I guess.  They definitely put some thought into it. I’m out on the sequels…… john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Does anyone else think that the new Lord of the Rings  movie is boring, in spite of the outstanding care and  expertise that went into it ? Are you old enough to remember that great satire, Bored of the Rings? The books were so boring I never got past page 3 of the first one. I’ve heard that the movie is just one cliff hanger followed by another. Take heart, Greg. You won’t have to waste your money on the next two movies, which are already in the can. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Boring?  Check out the lampoon’s sequel, Bored of the Rings, fun at first, but a bit overworked. That’s a book from the 60’s or 70’s, not a movie. But, no, I didn’t find the book boring.  Like any movie based on a great book, it never meats your expectations, but this one was so much better than Dune that I couldn’t muster a complaint, and I will see the next two. Chas

I loved the Lord of the Rings movie. I have read the books many times and the movie did a pretty good job. The problem is that with such an epic book any movie nearly always ends up as a  series of vignettes that communicates the plot in the shortest way possible. This is at the expense of the ambience and magnificence of the book. Dune, the TV Series on SciFi, is much better than the Dune movie. Definitely captures the middle-easterness of the book and the effects are excellent. Gary

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Don’t get me started about the visual effects . . . granted I still have the taste of sour grapes still in my mouth [I worked on Pearl Harbor, and it beat us out for the Visual Effects Oscar]. My best description of the movie . . . fight, fight, run, close-up of Frodo crying, fight , run, close-up of Frodo crying, fight, fight, fight, close-up of Frodo crying, run, fight, fight [you get the idea]. The movie moves at a snails pace in my opinion.  After the last scene in the movie (where they are looking towards their ultimate goal), I turn to my wife and said . . . "It’s going to take them 2 more movies to get over there?". But, on a side note . . . If I was young and single . . . I wouldn’t think twice about heading down th N.Z. and working on the other 2 movies . . . that way I could fish on my one day off.  snicker snicker -Marshall – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yup. Instead of parts of the book, it WAS one cliffhanger after another. After four or five they began to run out of dramatic soundtrack….  Agreed.   I was trying to figure out how much of what  I was seeing was actual NZ vs computer generation  vs good old fashioned special effects.  Some of it  was quite obvious but much of it was quite difficult.

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Don’t get me started about the visual effects . . . granted I still have the taste of sour grapes still in my mouth [I worked on Pearl Harbor, and it beat us out for the Visual Effects Oscar].

I obviously don’t pay enough attention to the Oscars, but having seen both movies Pearl Harbor beat Rings hands down in the visual effects category IMHO.  Every time there was a group of people walking in front of matted scenery I kept thinking that they were purposely trying to make it look like a bad B-movie from the 50’s.      - Ken

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Yes, they have been "shot".  But they are in what is called "Post Production" now – Meaning the visual effects are being created as we speak.  I know this because several of my co-workers have taken the option to go down and work on the second and third movies.  The visual effects will not be completed for the second movie until at least November. This is a very labor and computing intensive business. I just finished working on Star Wars – Eposide II – Saturday, [they actually called me out of a flyfishing seminar with Mel Krieger at the Golden Gate park casting pools, to tweak a final shot ]. And this Star Wars movie has been "shot" for a few months now.  The next project I start in May, will not be completed until next June. Cheers, Marshall – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  The other two have already been made (tho I  assume that they will be tocuhed up/recut a  bit in response to critiques of the first one). But, on a side note . . . If I was young and single . . . I wouldn’t think twice about heading down th N.Z. and working on the other 2 movies . . . that way I could fish on my one day off.  snicker snicker

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I somewhat enjoyed the first, but had to keep whispering to my wife about who that sudden new character was, why the seemingly arbitrary shifts in plot elelments, etc. The  second is far better both as cimematography and as book adaptation – but it’s not up there with Casablanca, Schindler’s List or The Wizard of Oz.

I didn’t like the first at all but your assessment of the second is on the money, IMO. Especially considering that it was a made for TV movie, I thought it was well made. After my disappointment with the first movie, I almost didn’t watch the second. Willi

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 Does anyone else think that the new Lord of the Rings  movie is boring, in spite of the outstanding care and  expertise that went into it ?

My wife found it rather boring.  She felt it did deserve an Oscar nomination  however because obviously it was an example of grand moviemaking.  I found it entertaining.  But I’m a geek. Mu

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Does anyone else think that the new Lord of the Rings movie is boring, in spite of the outstanding care and expertise that went into it ?    

I read the books passionately when a child, but haven’t for a long time. Went to the movie in dread, and utterly loved it. i thought it was terrific. LC — Lazarus Cooke

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OTOH, it was rather non-pc to exclude gay Tom Bombadil, don’t you think ?

I thought he was married?  But then …. Lc — Lazarus Cooke

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 Also, their problem domain scales nicely, so their test data can be much smaller inputs resulting in much smaller scenes, and if those go well the giga-pixel scenes probably will too, just with lot’s more computer time…

I’m copying this out, and learning it off by heart, so as to know what to say when people ask me what I thought of the movie. LC — Lazarus Cooke

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It may be that those who’ve written the engines have been careful about these issues, but even then my guess is that their "validation" consists of looking at the scene and deciding whether it looks good or not. (I suppose one might consider that to be the ultimate validation, anyways).

I also thought that the math libraries were a bit smarter in how they handled floating point calculations as well, such that a lot of the "fun" was buried to the point of not being considered by "modern" programmers…

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 I assumed that there would be a lot of iterative  floating point calculations and that there would  be some concern about values wandering out  of precision after a large number of iterations,  but that’s based on guessing at what actually  goes on with this stuff.

It’s basically a matter of projecting virtual light rays from pixels in the virtual film plane out through the virtual focal point and into the 3D model, determining what surface in the model the ray intersects, and then using a lighting model and the reflectance properties of the surfaces in the model to determine what the color and intensity of the pixel should be. There are lots of special hacks to make things realistic. For example, how do you render fog? It wouldn’t be feasible to model every little water droplet. It’s essentially a simulation of the physics of actual photography, with a few added hacks. This is a very parallel computation — every pixel value can, in principle, be computed independently. It’s pretty easy to put lots of processors to work on the problem with good efficiency.

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This is a very parallel computation — every pixel value can, in principle, be computed independently. It’s pretty easy to put lots of processors to work on the problem with good efficiency.

which is why a significant portion of Toy Story could be done using a bank of Quadras. Mu

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I loved the Lord of the Rings movie. I have read the books many times and the movie did a pretty good job. The problem is that with such an epic book any movie nearly always ends up as a  series of vignettes that communicates the plot in the shortest way possible. This is at the expense of the ambience and magnificence of the book.

Ditto on loving it! I resisted watching the movie for months because the books were so important to me as a kid. I lived in the woods of Maine, and one Christmas break, I read them a lot of times. A lot. Probably some sort of record. You gotta keep in mind, I was an insecure, alienated little kid, was snowed in miles away from neighbors, and I fell in love with the fantasy world of Middle Earth. Pretty much memorized the books. So when the movie came out, I refused to go because I didn’t want to superimpose the visual images over my rich imaginary images. But yesterday, feeling particularly middle-agish and lost in another land, I went for a walk and happened across a movie theater just as LoTR was starting. Bought the ticket and went in. The movie didn’t have to ‘fill in the blanks’ for me, or have a particularly integritous plot: I still have the books memorized, and I know the characters like I know my own relatives. Instead, the images were like a photo album from my childhood, with characters I’ve been missing, and places I wish I could see IRL. That old adventurous spirit. Anyway, I sat there for the whole freaking movie with tears creeping down, one at a time. I felt like a nostalgic old idiot until I noticed the guy next to me doing the same. I loved the movie. I won’t see it again, because I want to keep my old mental images intact, but it sure was nice to see those old friends again. Oh yeah, I also cried because I’ll NEVER get to lay Liv Tyler. riverman

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I found a couple of disturbing gaps, like the pc move of changing Glorfindel

<SNIP OTOH, it was rather non-pc to exclude gay Tom Bombadil, don’t you think ? — Gary M

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Does anyone else think that the new Lord of the Rings movie is boring, in spite of the outstanding care and expertise that went into it ?

No.  I loved every minute of it.  I’ve read the trilogy dozens of times, and found the movie to be strikingly true to the original text.  It was spellbinding to this old hippie.  

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says… Does anyone else think that the new Lord of the Rings movie is boring, in spite of the outstanding care and expertise that went into it ? No.  I loved every minute of it.  I’ve read the trilogy dozens of times, and found the movie to be strikingly true to the original text.  It was spellbinding to this old hippie.  

I found a couple of disturbing gaps, like the pc move of changing Glorfindel (I believe…as I DON’T have the books memorized ) into Arwen, making Arwen more of a warrior than depicted in the books. The battle with Gandalf and Saruman was botched as well. It’s more accurate, I believe, to say that the movie is in the same spirit as the book. Rob

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 I remember seeing a very short sequence from the  last Star Wars movie which apparently took several  months’ computer time to generate.  Validating the  software for something like this must take a lot of  time.

I may be a few years out of date, and maybe someone can correct me, but I believe one program is used for the overwhelming majority of 3D computer graphics in films: Pixar’s RenderMan. Rendering images (that’s what it’s called) with a computer is routine, but expensive. The hard part is building the models. The coolest special effect I’ve seen in a long time was in a recent Blockbuster commercial. Two animals in a pet store across the street from the Blockbuster were trying to get attention. The cool thing is that the filmmakers rendered fur convincingly. Fur is hard. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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My wife found it rather boring.  She felt it did deserve an Oscar nomination  however because obviously it was an example of grand moviemaking.  I found it entertaining.  But I’m a geek. Mu

    you are also a wonderful creator of flies.  mine arrived this afternoon. i will probably keep a couple just to admire.     thanks, mu. yfitons wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Good question. The parts with actual scenery are pretty obvious if you have been or lived here, if not I guess it would be hard to tell. Having said that my fianc

Question:

I may be attending a convention in Mesa, Arizona the last week in March and would like to know if there are any public spots for fly fishing close to Mesa?  If I can’t take my gear, how about areas close by that I could just wander around in?  Haven’t ever been to the southwest and would like to see more than just manicured parks.  Thanks for any information you can provide. Larry We give dogs love we can spare, time we can spare, and room we can spare.  In return, dogs give us their all.  It

Question:

Some of us C&R types advocate it not to be pompus or to hold the higher ethical ground. I release fish because I like to catch’m more than I like to eat them. Also I want to help manage a finite resourse. I figure if a fish can be caught more then once then its good for the fishery and the fisherman….not the fish. I don’t apologize for killing for sport, but C&R allows me to kill less. Hell golfers kill grass when they golf. I kill insects every day walking down the street. I guess your point is that if you don’t like trout (to eat that is) you have no business fishing. Do you return sub-eatables to the stream? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – – Views on Ethics Astream – (snipped) Ethics.. the ethics of taking your pleasure out of playing with the lives of another being?  If C&R flyfishers actually really, honestly cared all that much about ethics, they would take up hiking or some other activity where their actions are not akin to russian roulette on the life of another being. I know this is a little extreme, but I grow so tired of C&R people attempting to take the moral high road.. but to me, all I see is a bunch of empty justification for getting your enjoyment out of ‘playing’ with the lives of another species. IMHO, there’s far more honor in catching only what you will keep, and keeping a very small, responsible amount. I enjoy reading your writing.. so please don’t take this personally, but C&R is a knee-jerk response to a real problem.. unfortunately, it isn’t a solution. -Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

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Jon Cook: <<…..Well, here we agree. If you are an athiest, if you believe there is no good/evil/morality/ethics in the universe, then you do not owe anybody anything, whether they are a fish, your kid, whatever. Perhaps *that* is why Clinton doesn’t fly fish! Just a thought.

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I’ve followed this debate for a couple of years and I keep seeing the same things rehashed.  Has any of the contributors ever learned anything from it and modified their position to suit, or has this become as ritualized as watching Seinfeld reruns to TV eternity? Moe, you and your cronies argue C&R is immoral, shows lack of respect to animals, ruins the rivers etc.  The Ralphians argue that C&R is merely a tool to be employed or not, depending on circumstance.  Morality is irrelevant.  Someone with a Classical education can help me out here, but weren’t there two characters who were condemned for eternity to battle each other.  Well these guys should step aside for we have two new candidates for the job. There is no endgame to this, and maybe that’s the point.  It’s become a Seinfeld substitute.  In chess, repetitive moves can be ruled a stalemate. What else do we have here, but that.  Isn’t it about time somebody recognized that the other side may have made a valid point or two?  If there is no growth, no development in this debate, it just becomes a Usenet WWF tag team match, Moe and the Fish Breaths vs.. Ralphie and the Barbless.  No time limit, no falls, no referee, and eventually no audience. There’s no point me adding my two cents worth on the subject.  Somebody would just misrepresent it and go off on another tangential rant.  We already need half the farms in Iowa just to provide the hay for all the straw men that get built around here.  Can’t anyone see any merit in what the other side is saying, or have you dug your bunkers so deep, you can’t see out of them? KRR — remove nospam from Email address

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: :       well, now, jon, let’s think about that position for a moment. : i have known scores of folk who are either atheists or agnostics or : non-christians who both talk the talk and walk the walk in the theatre : of decent relationships with their fellow man just as well as "god : fearing christians, etc." Absolutely, me too. (btw, I only said atheist, so what the other groups have to do with anything, I don’t know). I only assert that it is impossible to tell an atheist they have a moral obligation to something.

You mean all I have to do is become an atheist and I can keep or release as many fish as I want to.  (In the words of Homer Simpson… WHOO HOO!)  I’m switchin’  :-) Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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: : ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? More anglers selfishly catching more than they should..

_______ THIS!  Is exactly the point Johnathan.  That I CAN Catch & Release 8 or more fish a day when I could have killed a limit of 6 instead and quit and gone home, IS just the point. If I can, as a sportsman, catch and release twenty, thirty, or more fish a day and not kill a one, THAT IS THE POINT. Selfish?  You bet.  What’s wrong with the word selfish?  There is nothing wrong with the word selfish, self interest and entertainment as long as that activity does  not demean the resource. Here, look at that stream.  It has six fishermen in it and 72 fish in it.  You’re the Seventh fisherman and all six of THEM catch their limit of six fish each, and then go away. You, on the other hand, that day, caught 36 fish and released them all, not hurting a one for another day. The next day, all six fishermen return and repeat the process because ‘the law’ says they may. You come back the third day and there is nothing left for you. Why do you then not see how beautiful  you are? Mr. G. Fishing only becomes by business when I am one and they are two. ? It means, I am only the minority.

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Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo . so are you saying that there are fewer fish and the fish are smaller and generally in poorer condition than BEFORE c&r regulations?

gross mismanagement by the States responsible.  First off, the number one enemy to wild fisheries are when the State starts introducing hatchery fish. Next, there are too many fishermen. etc. The answer is to manage a wild fishery as a wild fishery with no catch and kill allowed.  Any fish that is not handled properly, will die and the carcass will be picked up by an eagle, otter, etc.  BUT what won’t happen is the hand of man will not be allowed to fill an ego.  EGO destroys the size of the breeding stock than anything else. Where a section of stream could handle one catch and kill fisherman a month,  the same stretch can handle many more fly fishermen a week that catch and release. I can promise everyone that barbless hooks are one of the most exciting aspects to catch and release fishing in a century of inventions. Here, we fly fishermen will lose more then what comes to hand, but that we can hook up and get a wiggle or a leap or two before the majority of the fish get free – is reward enough.  This is why I always tell my guests,  "That you at least hooked up and got a turn or one leap, we regard as a fooled fish and caught if it had a barb." How would you like to fish.  With or without a barb?  If you catch and release? Mr. G.

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____ snipped some good stuff: the only solution that satisfies my hopes for my kids is a middle ground, boring as that stand might be:  be moderate in your days on the water. be moderate in the numbers of fish you catch.  kill only what you want to eat.  and then post a literate description of your experience on roff so us poor rednecks in the appalachians can vicariously enjoy the feeling of a 20 inch rainbow on the business end of a 7.5 thomas & thomas.         wayno

for bigger trout and/or fish like Steelhead Wayne? arrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggh!   But I’ll do it. You can fish with anything out west you want to as long as its nine feet or more. 8′ 11” ’s won’t do. ; ) Mr. G.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip the only solution that satisfies my hopes for my kids is a middle ground, boring as that stand might be:  be moderate in your days on the water. be moderate in the numbers of fish you catch.  kill only what you want to eat.  and then post a literate description of your experience on roff so us poor rednecks in the appalachians can vicariously enjoy the feeling of a 20 inch rainbow on the business end of a 7.5 thomas & thomas.        wayno well said wayno….. btw…. i never thought I’d be happy to see a return to roff of this timeless debate, it sure beats the g-wars. –Wataugan Walt p

Mr. G.

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: : ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? More anglers selfishly catching more than they should.. : Who or what says I owe a fish these kind of ethical/moral considerations?   Well, here we agree. If you are an athiest, if you believe there is no good/evil/morality/ethics in the universe, then you do not owe anybody anything, whether they are a fish, your kid, whatever.

        well, now, jon, let’s think about that position for a moment. i have known scores of folk who are either atheists or agnostics or non-christians who both talk the talk and walk the walk in the theatre of decent relationships with their fellow man just as well as "god fearing christians, etc."  a human being’s treatment of fish, as an animal or a golf ball, may have nothing whatsoever to do with that individual’s philosophy or religion.         this response is not meant to imply that i am directly opposed to your position on what a man does to fish when he tries to catch them.  i just want to make sure that if you posit that only "good people" c&k, then you and i have a difference of opinion. (snip)         wayno

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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how Jon and Timbo follow my posts as certainly as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum? [deleted] He’s using "The Chubakka Defense" again ! — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

I resent that! I do not chubakka! I think it’s a disgusting and unhealthy habit. Besides my wife wouldn’t tolerate the spitunes! Ralph H

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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how Jon and Timbo follow my posts as certainly as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum? 8^) : : ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? More anglers selfishly catching more than they should..

oh so that’s the problem Mr Salad was talking about? : Who or what says I owe a fish these kind of ethical/moral considerations?   Well, here we agree. If you are an athiest, if you believe there is no good/evil/morality/ethics in the universe, then you do not owe anybody anything, whether they are a fish, your kid, whatever.

atheism does not equal amoralism. (BTW I officialy consider myself agnostic – I suspect there is a god but I have no idea what shape it takes – I suspect as people this shape is beyond our comprehension – but I have real trouble with the idea – since by definition it is beyond…) So you can put your prejudices away. I’d also say God’s expression and resolution of ethical and moral issues is perplexing to say the least. If you believe that man *does have* some sort of prescribed relationship to animals, that the term "animal abuse" can be meaningful in a moral or ethical way, then you have to decide what the ramifications are to that. It might involve how you fish.

 How might it unless you are a Hindu or animist – even then I don’t believe the ascribe the sort of ethical considerations you might give to fish on some obscure religious basis. I’d ask you to be more specific but I don’t think you can. Anyone else? Mr Salad? Ralph H

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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how Jon and Timbo follow my posts as certainly as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum?

[deleted] He’s using "The Chubakka Defense" again ! — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] I’ve asked before but never got an answer – show me one water where the population of fish were quantitatively and qualitatively (for anglers) worse off after the introduction of c&r. Fuck Ralph… (why don’t ya try to double up on the ridilan [you alzheimeric bot !] Nothing like a good immature ad hominym attack to get this off on the right foot ! <g) Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo

And now I come in and ask if the conditions at these places are due to C&R being implemented or due to a population increase in population centers around those area.  Is C&R the cause or the affect? …Continue ad infiniteum… What were we supposed to do?  Blue 22 or something like that? Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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[deleted] I’ve asked before but never got an answer – show me one water where the population of fish were quantitatively and qualitatively (for anglers) worse off after the introduction of c&r.

Fuck Ralph… (why don’t ya try to double up on the ridilan [you alzheimeric bot !] Nothing like a good immature ad hominym attack to get this off on the right foot ! <g) Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo . . . Places I wouldn’t fish on a bet.  And I doubt you would either once you realized the score…. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo .

so are you saying that there are fewer fish and the fish are smaller and generally in poorer condition than BEFORE c&r regulations? BTW I am accepting all these rivers are strictly c&r – no slots no trophy bags. – excepting of course the San Juan – as has been pointed out you have repeatedly misrepresented the regs on that river. Ralph H

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[deleted] I guess your point is that if you don’t like trout (to eat that is) you have no business fishing.

[deleted] That is correct. Do you return sub-eatables to the stream?

Culling (Selective Harvest) is an ancient form of managing a natural resource. C&R is a 30 year old Knee-Jerk non-solution that allows rod manufacturers to multiply. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Some of us C&R types advocate it not to be pompus or to hold the higher ethical ground. I release fish because I like to catch’m more than I like to eat them. Also I want to help manage a finite resourse… ? Ethics.. the ethics of taking your pleasure out of playing with the lives of another being?  If C&R flyfishers actually really, honestly cared all that much about ethics, they would take up hiking or some other activity where

. but to me, all I see is a bunch of empty justification for getting your enjoyment out of ‘playing’ with the lives of another species. IMHO, there’s far more honor in catching only what you will keep, and keeping a very small, responsible amount. I enjoy reading your writing.. so please don’t take this personally, but C&R is a knee-jerk response to a real problem.. unfortunately, it isn’t a solution.

ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? C&R is hardly a knee jerk response but has evolved over a period of generations. For generations it’s been accepted to let some fish – they are too small, they’re spawning, they are the wrong species. Some fishers then realized they could let many more go and provide more fish for themselves and for others tomorrow and the next year and in the next generation. Look at the results –  in many cases it worked – waters empty of mature fish repopulated with fish of all age classes. It’s hard as an angler to accept arguments that those populations of fish are worse off because of c&r. I’ve asked before but never got an answer – show me one water where the population of fish were quantitatively and qualitatively (for anglers) worse off after the introduction of c&r. C&R is a technique or tool – neither particular ethical or unethical in and of itself. As in most aspects of life ethical issues in fishing are not black and white as you seem to portray. Some examples; a recent email from a fisherman in England said tho’ the minimum size limit on his local waters is 7 inches he doesn’t kill anything under 9. Haig-Brown wrote he had a personal limit of 14 inches for much of his angling life on Vancouver Island when during that time the legal limit varied from 8 inches to nil. Are these anglers ‘playing’ with the life of other beings? How different are their rules from c&r? If there is a defined point where conservation says to release or kill how can anyone do otherwise without ‘breaking’ your ethical boundaries into sadism? What of other anglers who impose such limits on themselves? Who sets the limits and decides what’s the ethical and what is not? Do we want legislated morality that says we can only fish to kill and must kill what we catch? And of course this gets back to the question I posed some time ago and recently you Mr Salad – Who or what says I owe a fish these kind of ethical/moral considerations?   Ralph H

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- Views on Ethics Astream – Ernie Schwiebert said it as well as anyone in Matching the Hatch. "The angling sportsman does not need dead trout or fish in his basket to feel satisfaction. He has long since proved to himself that he can catch trout and needs no proof for his companions. He does not fear the ridicule of others, for he knows that he could fill his limit if he wished. He counts as his highest reward the number of fish put back into the river for another day. He may bring in fish now and then if someone has expressed a desire for them, but he loves his fishing far to much to spoil it with wanton killing of the trout." Locating a large steelhead or salmon is the greatest thrill for the angler, for here is an adversary worthy of his skill. He may try for the fish for hours or even days without success, and still return home satisfied. Its not the dozens of fish taken that one remembers, but those few heavy, trophy steelhead taken or lost under difficult conditions we remember best. Just the knowledge that a big fish is present adds flavor to a pool or a secret place. Beginners may ask why one fishes if he is to release his catch. They fail to see that the `live steelhead’ or trout sucking in the fly and fighting the rod is the entire point of our sport. Dead fish are just so much lifeless meat. If food is the reason for fishing, then the fish market is a cheaper place to obtain it. We cannot begrudge the local angler his fish and the limits of the law for these are honorable reasons to fish, but the man who travels hundreds of miles and even thousands of miles to fish the stream is paying $50 for each pound of fish. When one stops to consider his motivation in the light of economics, it becomes obvious that he fishes for the sport and not the meat and more importantly . . . not to display his ego. Consider that the Clearwater and Snake Rivers are some of the finest Steelhead waters in the United States.  It’s a shame that I have yet to see anyone release one steelhead yet and it’s curious in the manner that the fish are kept by almost everyone in the area.  Consider the fact a suffocating demise is a torturous and hideous inconsideration. Here, a fish kept should be killed humanely with a sharp rap behind the head. He should be dressed immediately and his remains thrown away from the river for wildlife, not into the river. Again, as Ernie Schwiebert has so well put it, in his book Matching the Hatch, "The subject of etiquette along a river is difficult, for I hesitate to preach about sins that have been mine in the past. The regard for the rights of others is of primary concern and the inconsiderate fellow who shoulders in when you have taken a fish, wades through the water you are fishing, or the rafter who does the same, or proceeds to cast over the fish that you are working, is a thoughtless boor. There is no caste system on trout waters. The fish will rise to the crude fly dappled by the backwoods native as well as to the daintily imported one cast by the wealthy financier." Specific rules in angling etiquette are few, and common courtesy is the basis. It is poor form to enter a stream not far above another if he is fishing in that direction. The skillful angler doesn’t disturb the water much, but the beginner is likely to frighten the fish and put them down for some time. The large power-boat-owner that does not keep an gentleman’s eye upon the banks for wading fisherman or tube fisherman and who recklessly and wantonly allows his massive boat’s wake to attack the innocent people is quite simply, an ass and is a lawless, loose-cannon that cares little for the lives or safety of others fishing or using the joys a river provides. One should realize his own capabilities and enter the stream at a discreet distance above or below another man. The first man in the river has the right of way and we should not disturb his fun for he would most likely not disturb yours. Noticing your kindness is more apt to bring an invite and win you a lifelong friend, for along the river you are bound to find the best of mankind. As a matter of tradition the man wading upstream has the right of way, since the gentleman coming down is more likely to spoil the former’s chances. The one wading down should retire from the water and move unobtrusively around him. Often the inconsiderate will acknowledge the right of way and then wade noisily past or walk along in plain view of the fish. Don’t do this. Rafters, kayakers, drift boats and power boats should go behind the wading fisherman at a good distance, as they will pass in only a few seconds but the fisherman is left with nearly a half hour before his spooked fish return. I consider this thoughtlessness intolerable for some men will wade into position in the presence of a fish of a lifetime in almost impossible water and to a rafter the same water is a breeze. On the other hand, just because there is a rafter-kayaker-boater on the river doesn’t mean that the fishing is ruined just in his passing. But that the passing should be a pleasant experience for all parties concerned and not just one-sided, is the point.  Power boaters should always keep in mind that a fisherman wading is a "No Wake Zone." In being a writer, I want to capture the interest of as many as I possibly can. But to say that I’m here to win a popularity contest is a misconception, regarding fishing.  However, the Snake and Clearwater Rivers are fantastic, original and unique resources in this area around Clarkston Washington and today, they are but a whisper of what they once were in the past. Yet, their recreational powers are awesome and in this expanding population of America the use of their recreational attributes are on the increase as the quality of life of the rivers decrease.  We lack disaplines all across this nation with all our rivers and streams. We . . . you . . . and I, have long realized how precious our rivers are. The income that the Snake and Clearwater Drainage’s pulls into our area amounts in the millions of dollars each year. Behavioral examples we set will be the same examples others will follow in the future when it comes to river etiquette’s and their care.  Each fly fisherman must always ‘regard’ the quality of his waters and vanguard them. Many waters we fish are bordered by private property and we should respect that.  However;  cattle and livestock have little sanitary excuses, to be down by these rivers because it’s well known their filthy, polluting ways are not tolerated well by many forms of wildlife.  Cattle however, can be easily frightened and stampeded by the thoughtless angler with a resultant loss in weight or chance of injury. One ill-tempered bull can wrong many rights here . . . so shy away from cattle,  if you can, until they can be moved away from the river by authorized personnel when they are in areas they do not belong in.  Like it or not, there are too many ranchers that push the tolerance envelopes of common sense and who literally steal  habitat not belonging to them or the cattle they let roam, many times, irresponsibly. The hardest article to write is this kind because it can sound so quickly as if one is preaching. Some landowners who allow fishing build gates or stiles for fishermen to cross their fences, but then there is always some anarchist who carries wire-cutters or pliers to pull the staples. We can hardly blame the owners of posted land in some instances – but there is no law against landowners who never cared about sportsmen in the first place either.  When kindness is shown, we need to safeguard and protect those accesses to rivers passing through private properties.  Yet, the laws of propriety state that if we allow grazing on public lands at great monetary advantage to the Rancers, the habitat destruction and over-grazing they incure upon US as a society does not give them the right to be inconsiderate of gentle anglers wishing simply to savor trout waters shut off to them by fences and in many cases, illegally. The cardinal sin so often committed is the disfiguring of water or the land along it and we know today that the majority of it is done by people who are twenty five years of age and younger. A large majority still being in school . . . like it or not.  The younger generation today cannot keep clean even their bedrooms let alone being able to wear their pants above the crack of their ass. They seem to continue the contents and conditions of their bedrooms into the out-of-doors and it’s a national disgrace their parents allow such bedrooms which are their own report cards of undisciplined children to exist but it is our fault we let them disgrace the outdoors. The refuse that litters the rivers and adjacent beaches and campsites if often quite astonishing. But recent field trips prove the road-sides to contain much more trash than our local beaches do. In Hell’s Canyon, where the beaches are provided trash containers, the public uses them. But along the road on the Snake River where they are NOT provided, the roadside is a pig-sty. I cannot think of anything that makes the general public (who are by the majority,  clean) more irritated than to see a beer hog throw his can down. I guess, I can say it makes me annoyed too. I’ll admit that. Yet, if I let the hot flash pass, I have that big pocket in the back of my vest and I always try and bring two cans out every time I go to the river. It isn’t much, but we won’t have to look at it the next time we go back. Our Clearwater and Snake Rivers and ALL Rivers and Streams will continue to please many of us if we remember  a thought Isaac Walton wrote in 1653. "He that hopes to be a good angler must not only bring an inquiring, searching, observing wit; but he must also bring a large measure of hope and patience." In these days of hard-fished waters, ethics and philosophy play an ever increasing role in our enjoyment, and to Father Walton’s measure of hope and patience, let me add the spice … read more »

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was posted fragmented, but I will leave it alone because everyone should beable to get the gist of it.  My apologies. gg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – todemean the subject matter at hand.  Ernie is a friend of mine as are everyone of you here are.  I’ve seen and done maybe something that wasn’t classy, but so have I seen the best of men screw up.  These events are not the litmus paper high marks that define a man’s life Ernie, and you know it. Ernie Schwiebert has had a terrific impact on the behavior of fly fishermen astream just because of his book "Matching the Hatch."  I don’t need confirmation of this fact from anyone because I have seen how dynamic his writings and works have been on our sport and the majority of his work has all been positive.  To my mind, after Lee Wulff died, the next icon that has the stature and body of work that is of a positive force is Ernest Schwiebert.  There is no questioning the sincerity this man brings to our streams.  We are fortunate to have such a genius that fly fishes, among us. I don’t expect  you are a great body of the men here to agree with me.  There was a period of a feeding frenzy regarding Ernie several years back and it had nothing to do with holding up a preserved fish.  Mr. Schwiebert has already mentioned that he is slow to talk about indiscretions that he may have committed himself in the past. Now what do we do?  Hit  him with this sort of inventory taking again, and again, and again?  I think not. I know this about Ernie Schwiebert.  Of late and I know he is still working on it, he has put his name and monetary fortune on the line fighting the corruption that had infested the guiding and booking agents there.  Mr. Schwiebert and company, some of which might be reading this group now, had guns pointed at them and the story is a complicated one.  Mr. Schwiebert will be the first to tell me I shouldn’t be talking about this here . . . but this is the kind of man he is.  He is fighting legal issues in Russia so we Americans can enjoy that which is basically corrupt. The Russian Government has been patient and are listening with interest to the case. This is a financial costly process and who is doing it for us?  Ernie Schwiebert. Frankly, he can kill a fish now and then all he wants.  BUT!  I understand your point Ernie Harrison and it is a good one.  Let’s not use it however to demean the man nor the good intent Ethics Astream is supposed to bring into our lives. Keep the fly in the ring of the rise. Sincerely, George Gehrke

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– Views on Ethics Astream –

(snipped) Ethics.. the ethics of taking your pleasure out of playing with the lives of another being?  If C&R flyfishers actually really, honestly cared all that much about ethics, they would take up hiking or some other activity where their actions are not akin to russian roulette on the life of another being. I know this is a little extreme, but I grow so tired of C&R people attempting to take the moral high road.. but to me, all I see is a bunch of empty justification for getting your enjoyment out of ‘playing’ with the lives of another species. IMHO, there’s far more honor in catching only what you will keep, and keeping a very small, responsible amount.   I enjoy reading your writing.. so please don’t take this personally, but C&R is a knee-jerk response to a real problem.. unfortunately, it isn’t a solution. -Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

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I hate to burst your bubble but Schweibert was holding a large dead trout for a picture which appeared with his article in a fly fishing magazine. The caption said the trout was released back to the river, but the eyes said "Dead Fish" and I later heard that it had been frozen for a week so he could have his picture taken with it.   I wrote a letter to the magazine saying and said Mr. Schweibert should not pollute our rivers with dead fish, but never received a reply. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – - Views on Ethics Astream – Ernie Schwiebert said it as well as anyone in Matching the Hatch. "The angling sportsman does not need dead trout or fish in his basket to feel satisfaction. <snip I am haunted by memories. Ethics in our lives makes them more perfect. gg

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– Views on Ethics Astream – [deleted] Ernie Schwiebert said it as well as anyone in Matching the Hatch. "The angling sportsman does not need dead trout or fish in his basket to feel satisfaction.

[deleted] Ernie Schwiebert never envisioned a hundred fly fishermen whoring his beloved frying pan. (My friend who is a licensed outfitter on the frying pan had [last week] a woman client pose topless with an 8 inch rainbow she had caught (then released) for a photograph.   This is what contempt for wildlife catch and release brings to the sport Ernie, George. I can no longer set forth with a clean conscience in those hallowed waters fouled by greed). Ernest Schwiebert had no idea to what level man in his greed would prostitute this notion (Bassmasters, One Fly…perhaps the worst of all "The Walleye Trail"). I doubt that (seeing these things) anyone could today preach this ill-founded ("Matching The Hatch", 1953) notion as some kind of manifest ethical destiny of the sport. C&R is not the bastion of sporting ethics you mistakingly believe it to be George. You are not the kingpin of ethicity you claim to be and I can prove it. The beautiful rainbow that you hold proudly on the photo at www.gink.com, …. Is the scale so slight that we can not see a creature that had just fought his lifes battle is now gasping to breathe in a suffocating foreign environment whose internal organs are crushing themselves as you hoist it one handed to be photographed ? Releasing it (whether it lives or not) wipes clean the slate for you ? What then of Ernest’s words "He has long since proved to himself that he can catch trout and needs no proof for his companions", can you (given your product, your website, this photograph) honestly claim to stand up to your own (Ernest’s) ethical standards ? Is the lens of our bias so out-of-focus that we can no longer see nor feel the error in this philosphy? Is the man that promotes the ’sport’ of fishing, perhaps, is the most unethical sportsman of all?. A fisherman launches his dory on an abandoned Maine beach seeking to catch fish to eat, to feed his family, or too sell.  No desire to simply catch a fish, photograph it for publicity.  He has no website with his picture on it. Aware of his role in nature, his requirement to respect nature and wildlife.  The unwritten contract of mankind.  Where we need to evolve to. This man, he is less ethical than you because he is just a ‘fisherman’ and not a ’sports-fisherman’? On his way home, "The Enlightened Ones" [standing in the surf with equipment worth more than some peoples cars] they can feel justified in shouting "why did you kill those fish ?" in some kind of Schwiebertesque chorous because they read your post on the internet or they thump "Matching The Hatch" as some kind of ‘bible’ ? Try Ernest’s half-logic on some rube, George. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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Question:

What is up with all this talk about being nice as you kill a trout and the hate wars between the Catch and Release and Catch and Kill camp?  For God sake go fly fishing, have a hell of a good time and quit thinking so damn much!! <grin  If you want to let the fish go, then do so.  If you are hungry, have it for dinner.  Crap, The FFF is on its way to becoming its own political part at this rate.  Some of you can phillibuster with the best of them.   Wake me when the topic entails the joy of fly fishing. Flamefully yours. Mike

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Wake me when the topic entails the joy of fly fishing.

Here Here ! I’ve got $250 bucks to blow on a new fly rod. Should I get a Sage or a Loomis ? Thanks in advance ! Release a Brookie for Bob ! (J.R. "Bob" Dobbs)

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Wake me when the topic entails the joy of fly fishing. Here Here ! I’ve got $250 bucks to blow on a new fly rod. Should I get a Sage or a Loomis ? Thanks in advance !

I’ve always pictured you with an Orvis, pink neoprenes and mirrored sun glasses. Ralph H Electro-Pal(TM) Electro-Pal is the Property of Cook-Walker Robotics which takes full legal responsibility for any slanderous or libelous writing the system may generate. To have your lawyer contact their lawyer email:

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[deleted] I’ve always pictured you with an Orvis, pink neoprenes and mirrored sun glasses.

oooooh…..you thavage you !!!. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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Wake me when the topic entails the joy of fly fishing. Here Here !

Whatdahell?!?! No "fuck off, Mike" this time? What’s next?!? World peace? I want the real Moe Skeeter back, damnit!!  ;/ — Christian Figenschou – http://home.sol.no/figen/

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yep!

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Charlie Choc: <<I think they wear GoreTex Spandex waders and felt soled ballet shoes up there Aspen way. Yes.  And when they drive their Orvis Jeeps, they have Orvis driving gloves, and Orvis driving shoes, and Orvis driving hats.  And they smoke  Orvis cigars. Dave L.

____ David!  Be nice.  On second thought, do you suppose someone will come out with a Presidential Cigar? How about a Presidential Harmonica? I imagine sales would depend upon if a fly fisherman would rather suck or blow? Out of my league.  We don’t sell cigars. We rather prefer customers that like to squeeze things. ))) A little levity here fellahs.   )))))))))))) oh my god. Mr. G. Side note to Monica.  Honey, I hope they impeach the immoral, aldulterous, unethicial, dishonorable, quibbling, lying, dope smoking, fornicating, wife cheating, bastard.  Makes everyone wonder what really goes on in that family, doesn’t it?  I should include the many unsaid things about a President that is married to an unfaithful wife also.  Dragging Hillary out of the Whitehouse will include repairing the prying finger mark impressions she will leave on the granite pillars. Trust me.  These are not nice people. None of them are. If Ross Perot was a fly fisherman, I’d probably vote for him. Sorry gang.  This nonsense doesn’t belong here. Back to Ironhead fishing for me. Sorry.  I just dislike Bill Clinton, a great deal.

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Wake me when the topic entails the joy of fly fishing. Here Here ! I’ve got $250 bucks to blow on a new fly rod. Should I get a Sage or a Loomis ? Thanks in advance ! I’ve always pictured you with an Orvis, pink neoprenes and mirrored sun glasses.

I think they wear GoreTex Spandex waders and felt soled ballet shoes up there Aspen way. — Charlie…

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Charlie Choc: <<I think they wear GoreTex Spandex waders and felt soled ballet shoes up there Aspen way. Yes.  And when they drive their Orvis Jeeps, they have Orvis driving gloves, and Orvis driving shoes, and Orvis driving hats.  And they smoke  Orvis cigars. Dave L.

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And they smoke  Orvis cigars. Dave L.

Good to see that there are still Americans who know that cigars are for smoking! By the way: do you guys know if "THE CIGAR" was an Orvis one????? Hans van der Stroom

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Well, if you are talking about perch, white bass, walleye and other well populated fish I agree.  But, . . . if you are talking bass or trout I can not agree with killing them.  The pressure is too great.. john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is up with all this talk about being nice as you kill a trout and the hate wars between the Catch and Release and Catch and Kill camp?  For God sake go fly fishing, have a hell of a good time and quit thinking so damn much!! <grin If you want to let the fish go, then do so.  If you are hungry, have it for dinner.  Crap, The FFF is on its way to becoming its own political part at this rate.  Some of you can phillibuster with the best of them. Wake me when the topic entails the joy of fly fishing. Flamefully yours. Mike

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And they smoke  Orvis cigars. Dave L. Good to see that there are still Americans who know that cigars are for smoking! By the way: do you guys know if "THE CIGAR" was an Orvis one????? Hans van der Stroom

… it was a Cuban cigar – I gave it to him (with a wink) when he was here in BC last year. Ralph H

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Question:

I will be fishing the upper Elk soon (near Slaty Fork).  Any advice on fly selection, water conditions etc?  Thanks in advance

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Hey Again! You sure are persistent in putting posts about WV Flyfishing on this newsgroup!  If I didn’t know better, I’d think you were a plant ffor my guide business as you and I seem to be the only ones regularly discussing WV flyfishing.  As for what is going on, wait until a few days or even the day before you leave and send me an e-mail.  If I don’t reply within 24 hours, chances are that I’m somewhere inthe backcountry and without access.  Call and leave a message at our 800 number and ask for a call back about conditions on the Slaty.  Oak fields these calls and is usually pretty good about getting back quickly.  I hope you catch them all as long as you put ‘em back!!! See you Streamside, Keith Comstock Cranberry Wilderness Outfitters phone: (800) 848-8398 web: http://www.wvoutfitters.com PS- I’m thinking about putting up a conditions page and trying to update in no less than once a week.  What do you think?

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Question:

Hi all, 1. The cost of fishing is going up, up, up. A good Sage rod can cost upwards of $600 for a piece of inexpensive graphite.  A day with a guide can cost above $300.  A night at a fishing lodge can cost $600.  (Firewood kindling can cost $40!<g)

Of course, we’ve always justified these things by pointing out how expensive cocaine is in comparison.  (just kidding) I am living proof that you can get an enormous amount of enjoyment from fishing for very little money.

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Hi all, I’ve received a couple of nasty emails over the past few days which tell me at least a few people do not understand what I am saying in my posts under the thread "Orvis Bashing."  (Believe me, I understand that most do not care!)  I am concerned others who read what I write, but do not send me email believe I am complaining about my salary.  I am not.  Like almost everyone, I wish it were more, and I believe it should be, but I have plenty of options if I am really unhappy about salary.  I’m sorry if what I write comes off as complaining at all, but I assure you, I am not talking about my salary.  Let me try and be as clear with my ideas as possible. 1. The cost of fishing is going up, up, up.   A good Sage rod can cost upwards of $600 for a piece of inexpensive graphite.  A day with a guide can cost above $300.  A night at a fishing lodge can cost $600.  (Firewood kindling can cost $40!<g) 2. We, the consumers, are as guilty as Orvis or anyone in this game.   We do not critically examine what the return is for the cost.  We pay it, just like we pay for overpriced Nike shoes.  We have been marketed. This I think, is a relatively recent phenomenon in fishing. 3. We do not do this with all things, like taxes or education.   We want to know what we will get for increased expenditures and most of us are suspicious of those who ask for more.  Therefore, it is not an innate part of the human condition to automatically overpay for things we value.  There is no a priori connection. 4. In fact, public education (and the local library, etc., whatever your local taxes go towards) in this country is generally an outrageous bargain.  We do not recognize this (in part) because there is no slick brochure, no beautiful movie or hilarious TV advertisement that tells us it is true.  There is no marketing.   5. If we really thought about this stuff, there is no way most of us could justify paying more for our own recreation than our children’s needs. Summary: The real beef with Orvis (or Sage, etc.) is that they are great marketers. This is not a crime, and we as consumers are partners in the activity. We must first realize this.  I made some comparisons of things I know about in order to demonstrate how much we pay for things which need not be expensive.  "Costs more" is not always better, nor is it necessary. Fishing for trout is about standing in a beautiful river in a beautiful setting and that is still free.  Resist the rest.   — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Rick Fletcher schrieb in Nachricht Hi all, I’ve received a couple of nasty emails over the past few days which tell

Hi Rick, I read all the Orvis bashing posts etc with interest. Understood your posts as well, in fact I invariably do understand your posts. Think it has to do with the fact that they are well composed and spelled, and you seem to know what you are talking about usually.  I think many people dislike being faced with moral issues, especially when this has to do with their passions and hobbies.   Some of the comparisons are a little hard to take, because they are obviously too close to the mark. I am bound to disagree with one or two of your points however, many people have no problem at all justifying the cost of their recreation as opposed to their childrens, or anybody elses needs for that matter, this is part of the problem. Also, one of the reasons many people go fishing, is to forget their problems for a while, and do not wish to be reminded of them in this context, because it probably makes them feel guilty as hell, having spent all that money which they shouldnt really have done in the first place !.  A lot of people are firmly convinced that it is not possible to enjoy anything much at all unless it is done using the " best" tools etc available, this all too often translates into the "most expensive" and I have actually heard people discussing tackle etc. in shops and the like, when somebody has said "it must be good, look how expensive it is ! ". This phenomenon is not new either, read some of the older literature, and you will see what I mean, Skues plugging Leonard rods etc. Hardys being praised to the skies for some perfectly ordinary ( but expensive ! ) bit of totally useless equipment etc. etc.  The high power marketing of today was not apparent of course, but then the market was far more limited. Even otherwise sensible people fall for "hype" when it has to do with their hobby, and this is what makes the market so attractive, the very fact that people will spend very large amounts of money for "names" etc, without really being able to judge whether it is worth it or not, and without making any appreciable difference to their capabilities, although pride of ownership etc might increase their enjoyment a little. Sorry you got nasty e-mails, but not everybody does things like that. Lastly, and on a somewhat lighter note, can you  tell me where this free beautiful river in a beautiful setting is ? ( just kidding ! ) Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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Hi all, I’ve received a couple of nasty emails over the past few days

        ok, rick, send me their addresses, and i’ll have o.c. and the bad boys from rowan county, n.c. chill the bastards.  anything goes in the defense of literacy! T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

        a. wayne harrison

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Hi Rick, You are trying to link your desire of a high end rod with Orvis marketing. And then blaming Orvis for your need of an expensive rod.  Am I getting close?  Hard to resist though.   My wife and I have two children about to enter college.  I surely want them in the Dennisons, Harvards, and the Dukes of this world but, guess what, it costs money.  My daughter wants to go into elementary education.  Talk about a return on her (my) money!  My son wants to be a flyfishing, rock climbing bum.  But he also realizes that after the good times, he might have the need to provide for a retirement. Rather than grip about the ‘high end’ colleges, we simply pay the costs (without grabbing an appropriate newsgroup and soap box) or we council a college priced fairly for the educational degree we are after. Buy a rod on sale and make it do and don’t worry yourself over the Orvis marketing that none of us can do anything about.   Hope this makes sense. Mike Warren, OH/Cook Forest, PA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I’ve received a couple of nasty emails over the past few days which tell me at least a few people do not understand what I am saying in my posts under the thread "Orvis Bashing."  (Believe me, I understand that most do not care!)  I am concerned others who read what I write, but do not send me email believe I am complaining about my salary.  I am not.  Like almost everyone, I wish it were more, and I believe it should be, but I have plenty of options if I am really unhappy about salary.  I’m sorry if what I write comes off as complaining at all, but I assure you, I am not talking about my salary.  Let me try and be as clear with my ideas as possible. 1. The cost of fishing is going up, up, up. A good Sage rod can cost upwards of $600 for a piece of inexpensive graphite.  A day with a guide can cost above $300.  A night at a fishing

Response:

Well said Mike, I guess it really isn’t Orvis that I dislike, it is just their marketing, advertising and promotional methods. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO  http://www/ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rick Fletcher schrieb in Nachricht Hi all, I’ve received a couple of nasty emails over the past few days which tell Hi Rick, I read all the Orvis bashing posts etc with interest. Understood your posts as well, in fact I invariably do understand your posts. Think it has to do with the fact that they are well composed and spelled, and you seem to know what you are talking about usually.  I think many people dislike being faced with moral issues, especially when this has to do with their passions and hobbies.   Some of the comparisons are a little hard to take, because they are obviously too close to the mark. I am bound to disagree with one or two of your points however, many people have no problem at all justifying the cost of their recreation as opposed to their childrens, or anybody elses needs for that matter, this is part of the problem. Also, one of the reasons many people go fishing, is to forget their problems for a while, and do not wish to be reminded of them in this context, because it probably makes them feel guilty as hell, having spent all that money which they shouldnt really have done in the first place !.  A lot of people are firmly convinced that it is not possible to enjoy anything much at all unless it is done using the " best" tools etc available, this all too often translates into the "most expensive" and I have actually heard people discussing tackle etc. in shops and the like, when somebody has said "it must be good, look how expensive it is ! ". This phenomenon is not new either, read some of the older literature, and you will see what I mean, Skues plugging Leonard rods etc. Hardys being praised to the skies for some perfectly ordinary ( but expensive ! ) bit of totally useless equipment etc. etc.  The high power marketing of today was not apparent of course, but then the market was far more limited. Even otherwise sensible people fall for "hype" when it has to do with their hobby, and this is what makes the market so attractive, the very fact that people will spend very large amounts of money for "names" etc, without really being able to judge whether it is worth it or not, and without making any appreciable difference to their capabilities, although pride of ownership etc might increase their enjoyment a little. Sorry you got nasty e-mails, but not everybody does things like that. Lastly, and on a somewhat lighter note, can you  tell me where this free beautiful river in a beautiful setting is ? ( just kidding ! ) Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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Rick – thanks for the well thought out post. Based on your perspective of money and costs and value(s), I am certain that we could fish together. I could not agree more. Ben

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Hi all, I’ve received a couple of nasty emails over the past few days which tell me at least a few people do not understand what I am saying in my posts under the thread "Orvis Bashing."  

[snip] Been there, fun eh? 3. We do not do this with all things, like taxes or education.   We want to know what we will get for increased expenditures and most of us are suspicious of those who ask for more.  Therefore, it is not an innate part of the human condition to automatically overpay for things we value.  There is no a priori connection. 4. In fact, public education (and the local library, etc., whatever your local taxes go towards) in this country is generally an outrageous bargain.  We do not recognize this (in part) because there is no slick brochure, no beautiful movie or hilarious TV advertisement that tells us it is true.  There is no marketing.  

These complaints work both ways. Canada has a universal health care system paid for by tax revenue.  I was at a party last year when one party goer (with a six figure income in anyone’s currency) whined and complained about how much he had to pay in taxes to support this system.  I wondered how many tens or hundreds of thousands he was willing to commit to an early death, just so he could become even filthier rich.  Neither was he willing to consider that the alternatives would have ended up costing the country and him, even more.  Limited minds don’t necessarily come attached to limited pockets. 5. If we really thought about this stuff, there is no way most of us could justify paying more for our own recreation than our children’s needs.

Only the most selfish would. Summary: The real beef with Orvis (or Sage, etc.) is that they are great marketers. This is not a crime, and we as consumers are partners in the activity. We must first realize this.  I made some comparisons of things I know about in order to demonstrate how much we pay for things which need not be expensive.  "Costs more" is not always better, nor is it necessary. Fishing for trout is about standing in a beautiful river in a beautiful setting and that is still free.  Resist the rest.   — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

What’s that old saying? Caveat emptor?  True in flyfishing as in anything else. Peter

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Oy, an intelligent post.  I had to, like, read it. As a public school teacher I can relate.  I often do extra duty and spend summer days in curriculum development or whatever to make enough money to indulge in my addiction.  Regular money covers other luxuries like food.  I think of this extra money not as dollars but as flyrods, which are very expensive even if you get the "good guy" price. Dave

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Question:

Hi Mike, Although I live in the East Bay, I’ve been to a shop fairly close to you in San Bruno.  I think the name is Ultimate fly shop on San Mateo Ave.  Low key but good service.   Within in 2.5 hours there is good fishing on the Yuba, Feather,Putah Creek,and Stanislaus rivers.  Also Sea pearch, stripers etc. are close by.  Never done salt water, but here it’s very good. Welcome, Mike

Response:

(Mike Lynch) writes: I moved to the SF Bay area about 6 mos. ago and I thought I left my fly-fishing days behind me in Utah (where I’m from).  Anyway, I’ve actually heard there’s some good fishing around SF (I live in San Mateo). Any suggestions on where to fish, when to fish, good shops, what to fish for, etc. would be greatly appreciated.  Also, what about saltwater flyfishing – I’ve never done it – popular around here?

Hi Mike and welcome to the neighborhood. As far as shops go there are a bunch: the Midge shop in Los Altos, The Caddis (somewhere in Belmont), the Ultimate in San Bruno, and of course Orvis in San Francisco (where I can be found when I’m not teaching schools), – also Fly Fishing Outfitters around the corner from Orvis. There are only a few places that are day trips out of SF to fish.  Putah Creek coming out of Lake Berryessa is about 1 1/2 hr. from San Mateo (I live in San Mateo).  The Stanislaus River below Goodwin Dam and the Mokulumne River below Comanche Dam are a little over two hours away.  Both the Stanislaus and the Mokulumne are closed now to allow the salmon a chance to spawn unmolested, but will re-open on Jan 1st.   Through Nov. 15th you can drive 5 to 6 hours north and fish the Upper Sac, the McCloud, Hat Creek, the Pit River, and Fall River.  About 4 1/2 hrs to the upper part of the Trinity.  Lots of other small streams and lakes in this Shasta area. You can drive about 4 to 4 1/2 hrs. east and fish the Tahoe area in the Sierra – Truckee, Little Truckee, and numerous small streams and lakes. As long as Tioga Pass through Yosemite is open, the Eastern Sierra is about a 5 1/2 hr. trip.  Lots of great fishing around the Mammoth Lakes area to the south of the pass and the Bridgeport/Twin Lakes area to the North of the pass.  Most of this area closes October 31st, so be sure to check the regs. If you plan on fishing the Sierra, pick up a copy of Ralph Cutter’s book "Sierra Trout Guide".  It is invaluable to get you started in the Sierra and to help you plan trips for years to come. Since you live in San Mateo, you should take Hwy. 92 west to Half Moon Bay.  You can fish up and down the coast from there for Surf Perch and Rockfish.  Pick up a copy of Ken Hanley’s book "Afoot in the Surf Zone" for specifics on beaches, times, and quarry.  Don’t attempt this during the Pumpkin Festival as you could probably drive to Tahoe in the time it takes to travel the 20 or so miles to HMB during the festival.  Normally it’s a pretty quick trip – 1/2 hr. or so.   During June and July you can sometimes catch stripers in the surf at the beaches around the golden gate.  Fairly consistent striper fishing can be had in the delta, though you need a boat to do so.   If you drive down to Sant Cruz or Monterey you can rent a boat and go fish the kelp bed for Kelp Bass. And then of course, there’s the steelhead fishing on the north coast that is just starting.                              Good Fishing,                                   Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Mike Lynch) writes: I moved to the SF Bay area about 6 mos. ago and I thought I left my fly-fishing days behind me in Utah (where I’m from).  Anyway, I’ve actually heard there’s some good fishing around SF (I live in San Mateo). Any suggestions on where to fish, when to fish, good shops, what to fish for, etc. would be greatly appreciated.  Also, what about saltwater flyfishing – I’ve never done it – popular around here? Hi Mike and welcome to the neighborhood. As far as shops go there are a bunch: the Midge shop in Los Altos, The Caddis (somewhere in Belmont), the Ultimate in San Bruno, and of course Orvis in San Francisco (where I can be found when I’m not teaching schools), – also Fly Fishing Outfitters around the corner from Orvis. There are only a few places that are day trips out of SF to fish.  Putah Creek coming out of Lake Berryessa is about 1 1/2 hr. from San Mateo (I live in San Mateo).  The Stanislaus River below Goodwin Dam and the Mokulumne River below Comanche Dam are a little over two hours away.  Both the Stanislaus and the Mokulumne are closed now to allow the salmon a chance to spawn unmolested, but will re-open on Jan 1st.   Through Nov. 15th you can drive 5 to 6 hours north and fish the Upper Sac, the McCloud, Hat Creek, the Pit River, and Fall River.  About 4 1/2 hrs to the upper part of the Trinity.  Lots of other small streams and lakes in this Shasta area. You can drive about 4 to 4 1/2 hrs. east and fish the Tahoe area in the Sierra – Truckee, Little Truckee, and numerous small streams and lakes. As long as Tioga Pass through Yosemite is open, the Eastern Sierra is about a 5 1/2 hr. trip.  Lots of great fishing around the Mammoth Lakes area to the south of the pass and the Bridgeport/Twin Lakes area to the North of the pass.  Most of this area closes October 31st, so be sure to check the regs. If you plan on fishing the Sierra, pick up a copy of Ralph Cutter’s book "Sierra Trout Guide".  It is invaluable to get you started in the Sierra and to help you plan trips for years to come. Since you live in San Mateo, you should take Hwy. 92 west to Half Moon Bay.  You can fish up and down the coast from there for Surf Perch and Rockfish.  Pick up a copy of Ken Hanley’s book "Afoot in the Surf Zone" for specifics on beaches, times, and quarry.  Don’t attempt this during the Pumpkin Festival as you could probably drive to Tahoe in the time it takes to travel the 20 or so miles to HMB during the festival.  Normally it’s a pretty quick trip – 1/2 hr. or so.   During June and July you can sometimes catch stripers in the surf at the beaches around the golden gate.  Fairly consistent striper fishing can be had in the delta, though you need a boat to do so.   If you drive down to Sant Cruz or Monterey you can rent a boat and go fish the kelp bed for Kelp Bass. And then of course, there’s the steelhead fishing on the north coast that is just starting.                             Good Fishing,                                  Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

Snip Funny, I moved ther other way… CA to UT. The fishing here is great. I just wanted to mention the Cassel Forebay near Hat Creek in northern CA. Returned there two weekends ago for my annual Columbus Day trip and thought the place is getting better all the time. I know Dick Gallands house and school are right there, but best kept secrets need to leak out once in a while                 Draper, Utah Wherever you go….. There you will be

Response:

Hi all, I moved to the SF Bay area about 6 mos. ago and I thought I left my fly-fishing days behind me in Utah (where I’m from).  Anyway, I’ve actually heard there’s some good fishing around SF (I live in San Mateo). Any suggestions on where to fish, when to fish, good shops, what to fish for, etc. would be greatly appreciated.  Also, what about saltwater flyfishing – I’ve never done it – popular around here? Thanks, Mike Lynch

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Question:

Those of you who have more mobility than mere wading but without a Mako, Whaler, or Hewes: what is your preferred way of getting away from shore and why? Darren Lew NYC

Response:

If you don’t have a boat and fish during daylight hours, consider renting a skiff.  Long Island has a number of fishing stations that do so.  The shallow-draft boats they feature would be fine for fly casting–stable with shallow-water capability.

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<<Those of you who have more mobility than mere wading but without a Mako, Whaler, or Hewes: what is your preferred way of getting away from shore and why? I am currently strictly a wading FFer, but my next toy will be a kayak. There is a whole new breed of ocean-going kayaks, some which are sort of hybridized canoes with open cockpits, some with a bit more beam for stability. I’m told that a good sized striper can give the kayaker a "Nantucket Sleighride". If anyone wishes to advance me $700 – $1,000 I will be pleased to report in more detail on the effectiveness of the craft.

Response:

Those of you who have more mobility than mere wading but without a Mako, Whaler, or Hewes: what is your preferred way of getting away from shore and why? Darren Lew NYC

Depends. If we’re talking back bay low light. Canoe. Almost anywhere else a small (Carolina skiff ?) GLASS boat (12-14 ft) with a Honda engine. I have never tried a kayak. Perhaps it would be great in the surf ? I prefer glass to tin for less noise, better long term durabilty and more inertia for waves to overcome. "The true angler is always content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo

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I get around Gardnier’s bay in a poke boat which is a cross ,between a Kayak and a canoe, but more to the kayak side of things. Its great becauuse its so portable, but very hard to fish from. You can’t even kneel in a  kayak and that makes it tough. If you’re using it to get from one flat to another then its good, but not too swift as a fishing platofrm itself. Ira Clair

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Question:

You might try straws with the tippet strung between the ends and the flies stuck in the straw.  That’s still a pain sometimes too, I wish I knew the perfect method. Curtis

Response:

Hi Tim, Your idea on storing already assemble nymph and dropper fly sounds great. I think I’ll do something similar myself. Thanks! Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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any suggestions on how to store a dropper/point combination?  I hate to discard the tippet and start all over again when reusing the same combination.  thanks

Response:

any suggestions on how to store a dropper/point combination?  I hate to discard the tippet and start all over again when reusing the same

Round your hat, easy if brimmed, otherwise still possible. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

any suggestions on how to store a dropper/point combination?  I hate to discard the tippet and start all over again when reusing the same Round your hat, easy if brimmed, otherwise still possible.

I took a newbie nymphing awhile back…I was waiting for him at the house (you know how those damned newbies are) and thought I could save some time on the river by pre-tying some of these casts, so I did…I tied a dozen BigFLy/Little fly combinations using a 14 inch hunk of 5X. At the time, I found a little cardboard watch box (approx: 1 X 3 X 6) with this carboard insert. I simply cut slits in each end of this insert…put the big hook in the slit, wrapped the tippet around and stuck the little hook into the cardboard.  Put the insert back in the box. It really worked well, except for the 5th law of flyfishing… that a hatch was on and midge emergers were in order, not the deep drift casts I had ready. (lucky bastard still probably has a dozen damn droppers and 2 dozen of my best nymphs in his vest somewhere hanging in a garage while he’s out golfing…) Tim Walker

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Question:

I have been fly fishing for about 14 years now and unfortunately live in southern California.  When I can’t get to the Eastern Sierra, Idaho or Montana I’m forced to try our sometimes barrren offerings here.   My question is this …… without revealing too much, does anyone out there have any experience on waters other than the W.F San Gabriel, Deep Creek, Bear Creek, E.F San Gabriel etc….. If so please reply to: Thanks

Response:

I have been fly fishing for about 14 years now and unfortunately live in southern California.  When I can’t get to the Eastern Sierra, Idaho or Montana I’m forced to try our sometimes barrren offerings here.   My question is this …… without revealing too much, does anyone out there have any experience on waters other than the W.F San Gabriel, Deep Creek, Bear Creek, E.F San Gabriel etc….. If so please reply to: Thanks

How about Sespe Creek? For details email me at: Darryl

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writes: To: Motorcty Have fished in King Harbor for Bonita and Mackeral. Very exciting, hard fighting fish. Rent skiff from Rocky Harbor Marina/Redondo Beach. They sell flies etc. Costs about $20.00 per half day. You need a 7/8/9 rod with sinking line like Teeny 200. Guys at Marriotts Fly Shop in L.A. know all about this.Good Luck. AK100.aol.com

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