Question:

Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies.

More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Dave

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More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived.

Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.

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My father brought home a 23 pound Pike from Minnesota years ago that had a huge scar on both sides of it’s body that was the result of a considerably larger Pike getting a death grip on her.  The wound was mostly healed, and the fish put up a great fight, so it clearly wasn’t weakened.   Some have said that the bleeding won’t stop.  That is simply wrong.   Some have said that if the gills are cut, then the bleeding won’t stop.  That may be true in some circumstances, but certainly not in all circumstances. Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table? My experience matches Peter’s with juveniles being more delicate, and with larger fish surviving tremendous injuries. Last year at Great Slave Lake my son Andy caught a blind pike.  The fishes eyes were entirely gone, but it managed to find his fly and put up a presentable fight.  It was only 6 or 7 pounds, and uninjured by the fly so we released it.  We couldn’t guess how it lost it’s sight. Frank Ammoto(sp?) wrote an article about steelhead fishing in BC long ago where he caught a steelhead that didn’t put up the usual fight.   When he landed it he discovered that literally half of it’s head had been bitten off by a seal.  This fish was 100 miles upstream from the nearest seal. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.

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Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table?

I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer.  I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river.  It did die though.  There was no mistaking it.  No big deal really.  I am sure some other critter was able to enjoy a nice fish. Unlike "some" people, I am not tormented by this. I wonder if water temps, time of year, etc make much of a difference. Perhaps in colder waters, their metabolism is moving slower and the bleeding eventually stops compared to warm water, faster metabolism, etc. I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all.  Think about it.  When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it?  I don’t draw blood when I lop off the fins of some perch and don’t strike blood until I lop off their heads or when I open them up to gut.  Just a few thoughts and not scientific answers. . . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?

That’s supposed to be a joke?? You remain one sick fuckin’ puppy.

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Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it.

Tim, This came up recently either on ROFF or ROFS. If ROFF sorry for the repeat of the site. http://www.leadertec.com/Catch_release.html Kiyu

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Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it.  You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott?

Well, as an erstwhile medical practitioner, I usually call it icky goo. When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?

Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why so many people would rather consort with fish slime than with you? Still not Pete

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Sure, they do die, I’ve seen that often too. I bet the water temperature has a lot to do with it.  Dry Falls Lake is a selective fishery in Eastern Washington that has a nice collection of 14 to 24 inch rainbows and a few nice browns.  One year it was warmer than usual around opening day, and I could see twenty or thirty dead fish on the second day of the season while the morning of the first day there were none.  I was sure these were fish that had been injured when they were hooked and released.  Other years there were no dead fish on the second or third day.  I’m sure it wasn’t any difference in the anglers or the education or the fish.  It had to be environmental. Today I was fishing for Silvers on the Cascade river and snagged a hard fighting 7 pounder.  All the skin and flesh was gone from the top of his head, right down to the bone.  That’s an area of about four square inches.  He put up quite a fight, and I released him unharmed.  The wound was red around the edges, and the rest was clean white bone.  The only likely perpetrator was a seal, and that had to have happened thirty miles down stream at the mouth of the Skagit.   All this is cold clean water, I’m sure that helped. As for that horible feeling that the fish has died, I don’t get that either.  It is wonderful to see all these dead pink salmon providing the nutrients our rivers have been starving for over the last several years. Chas Still thinking about carpooling to the Pike clave… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer.  I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river.  It did die though.   … snip . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone.  My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible. Why do I care about the slime on a fish I’m keeping?  (That’s an honest question, not a sarcastic comment)  I’ve noticed that fish I’ve gutted in the field and packed on ice seem to build up a heave slime layer by the time I get them home.  I wonder if the "slime glands" are like our hair folicles and keep functioning after the body has died. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone.  My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible.

just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do.  and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris

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I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all.  Think about it.  When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it?

Not much.  Maybe that’s the answer.  Fish just don’t have that much blood. Other than a major artery or the gills, they just don’t bleed much.  When you do cut the gills, they can lose such a high percentage of their blood so quickly (relatively speaking) that it’s sometimes fatal.  Maybe it’s not a blood clot issue at all.

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More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t.  Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds.  Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens?

Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.

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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.

Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution.  The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you see? George Gehrke

  george.vcf

1K Download

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The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t

necessary, don’t you see? I see the beauty of releasing bleeders in to an 11 inch cold handle cauterizer… — TBone

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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period. Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution.  The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you

see? Catercizes.  Yes, I think I see now.

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I suspect you’re right.  I think the main reason I keep them on a stringer is that I like to get them on ice as soon after they die as possible.  If I’m going to keep fishing, I’d rather keep the fish fresh by keeping it alive.  I know that’s not what I said before, but in that context I thought the delay might have some value. Thanks Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do.  and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris

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The best way to preserve ‘the slime layer’ is to never touch a fish with dry hands nor do you let it flop on dry ground. Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it.  You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott? When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

  george.vcf

< 1K Download

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In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health.

Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it. — TBone

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Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence eithe

I’ve seen many trout that have had huge scars and chunks of flesh missing that have survived quite well, but *every* trout or salmon that I’ve seen bleeding from the gills has died within minutes, often within seconds. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding.

IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

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Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Dave

More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t.  Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds.  Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens? TC, R

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In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke

  george.vcf

< 1K Download

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I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound.  All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal.  On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding.   The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom.  They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding.  As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a multi-part message in MIME format. In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke [ george.vcf ] (Attachment)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound.  All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal.  On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding.   The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom.  They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding.  As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas

Chas, I don’t have the range of encounters that you have mentioned but I can talk about a few instances.  We are taught that fish have no platelets and all bleeding inevitably leads to death.  I have hooked deeply small trout on C&R or slot limit streams that I was required by law to release and I have watched these bleeding fish die.  Yet I have also hooked a landlock salmon under the jaw, caused a very nasty, distinctive wound, had it bleed, released it (as required by law) and caught it the very next day on the same fly.   I have also caught smallmouth with fresh, bleeding mouth wounds opposite to the site of the hook puncture, that I had obviously caused having hooked and lost the same fish some time earlier (I was the only fisherman there.) These experiences have suggested to me that fish with major bleeding will die but a minor bleed is not necessarily fatal.  I also agree that pike with minor bleeding wounds will usually survive.  In my experience, most pike that are brought into a boat are returned to the water with at least some bleeding.  They thrash so much that even with experienced handling, it’s hard to keep them from banging into something that will cut them.  If mortality from these casual bleeds was 100%, C&R mortality for pike would be probably in excess of 50%. Nobody talks about pike as being endangered. So obviously, C&R mortality has to be running a lot lower (as suggested by virtually all studies – however flawed.)   Therefore, bleeding is not necessarily fatal – hardly scientific but definitely within the experience of this fisherman.  I have also caught steelhead with a fungus growth covering wounds inflicted during the migration, from nest building, and from fighting.  If steelhead died from the first bleeding wound, there wouldn’t be very many steelhead around. It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

fishworship

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to the sport and new to this board.  Is there somewhere I am supposed to look before asking basic newbie questions?  Or just ask away? Thanks, Ray

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I am new to the sport and new to this board.  Is there somewhere I am supposed to look before asking basic newbie questions?  Or just ask away? Thanks, Ray

You’ve already shown far more courtesy than the majority of newbies that come here for flyfishing advice. Thanks. We do have a FAQ http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/ Other than that, read the rantings for a week or so to get the gist of the ongoing conversations and a feel for the "group dynamics", then wade right on in. It’s a nice enough place, and we even talk about flyfishing every now and then. Welcome to flyfishing & welcome to ROFF. — Ken Fortenberry

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I am new to the sport and new to this board.  Is there somewhere I am supposed to look before asking basic newbie questions?  Or just ask away?

There is not much of a FAQ, unfortunately.  Ask, and if you get flamed either flame back or ignore them.  Repeat.  Enjoy. Regards, Jeff

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I am new to the sport and new to this board.  Is there somewhere I am supposed to look before asking basic newbie questions?  Or just ask away?

Isn’t it a little late for that, erk? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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I am new to the sport and new to this board.  Is there somewhere I am supposed to look before asking basic newbie questions?  Or just ask away? Thanks, Ray

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Question:

It looks like I’ll be in Switzerland next August. I was thinking that this might be a chance to try some European flyfishing. Anyone have suggestions about what would be good that time of year? It doesn’t have to be near Switzerland. This is a free trip, so I can afford to splurge on extra travel.

August is not exactly the best time for fishing here, but whatever, drop me a mail a little before the time and I will arrange something. Do it at least a month or so beforehand, and I will try and organise a license and everything for you if you would like to have a go here in Germany. I will try and send you some info on Switzerland as well. Your best bet for reasonable fishing is probably Austria. Tight lines ! MC

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It looks like I’ll be in Switzerland next August. I was thinking that this might be a chance to try some European flyfishing. Anyone have suggestions about what would be good that time of year? It doesn’t have to be near Switzerland. This is a free trip, so I can afford to splurge on extra travel. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Question:

Egads.  A brown truck just pulled into the driveway…… Shit…… just some Orvis bedroom slippers and pjs I ordered……. Louie

it. Still interested? — Mr. G.   ‘all’s fair with fur or feather’ http://www.gink.com http://www.rodbuilding.com http://www.xink.com 509-243-4100 or 5500

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sharks are a totally insignificant part of boating and yet you pasting these exclusively in boating newsgroups.  Perhaps the folks in some of the natural history or hydrosciences would be more interested. I have to disagree. As both a sailor and scuba diver (planning an extended cruise in the Pacific) shark awareness is key. If I spent my life in fear of everything that was a 10 million to 1 shot I would just crawl under my bed and hide. Quite true. Agree 100% – but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t learn more about those risks. And frankly, for cruisers in the Pacific the odds of coming into direct contact with sharks seems much higher than 10,000,000:1. Knowing how to deal with them when you encounter them can help prevent the incident from becoming life threatening. Ignoring the issue does not help. J. OK, I’ll say it again.  The postings do little if anything to describe any form of action, avoidance or deterrence that can be applied.  This particular thread was started with an account of Miss Australia of 1950 losing an arm to a shark.  They are simply sensationalism with little content other than "isn’t it terrible"

Ahem! Was she Miss Aussie before or after the incident?

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Food for thought: There are millions of sharks eaten by humans for every human eaten by a shark!

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This is why "shark bites man" is better news material than "man bites shark". But I also fail to understand why the sensational takes precedence ofer the sensible. — Anders Svensson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Food for thought: There are millions of sharks eaten by humans for every human eaten by a shark!

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This guy is crossing posting to several newsgroups and receiving complaints in each.  He is trying to sell some sort of shark repellent that doesn’t always work, but it provides psychological support in an attack because it might work. I sell a magic bracelet that does exactly the same thing at a fraction of the cost. Bob

It is amazing to see how interested you are in all of my postings(as it would been easy for you to skip over them as soon as you saw my email address associated with them, but you didn’t). Guess what? You are wrong again as I have nothing to do with the sales/marketing of either technology at the moment. How  do you know what the SharkPOD can do(other then from accessing the Web site below)? You surely have never tested the SharkPOD before, have you? How do you know what the Australian technology can do as you have never tested that technology before either(I had heard that it is working very well with baited sharks off Australia as I am waiting to get hold of a prototype to use myself)? You sure have a lot to say when you have probably never even seen a shark underwater before(except for on your television). What’s the matter? Afraid that an effective shark repellent will take away the market share that your "magical bracelet" currently exploits? Regards, Jim Morris http://starbulletin.com/97/12/22/features/index.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sharks are a totally insignificant part of boating and yet you pasting these exclusively in boating newsgroups.  Perhaps the folks in some of the natural history or hydrosciences would be more interested. I have to disagree. As both a sailor and scuba diver (planning an extended cruise in the Pacific) shark awareness is key. If I spent my life in fear of everything that was a 10 million to 1 shot I would just crawl under my bed and hide. Quite true. Agree 100% – but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t learn more about those risks. And frankly, for cruisers in the Pacific the odds of coming into direct contact with sharks seems much higher than 10,000,000:1. Knowing how to deal with them when you encounter them can help prevent the incident from becoming life threatening. Ignoring the issue does not help. J. OK, I’ll say it again.  The postings do little if anything to describe any form of action, avoidance or deterrence that can be applied.  This particular thread was started with an account of Miss Australia of 1950 losing an arm to a shark.  They are simply sensationalism with little content other than "isn’t it terrible" Ahem! Was she Miss Aussie before or after the incident?

For anyone who believes that the threat from sharks should not be considered as a possibility when in a survival situation(depending on the venue), I refer you to the book, ADRIFT, which was written by Steve Callahan(who is now a writer/editor with CRUISING WORLD magazine). Mr. Callahan was adrift in a life raft(after his sailboat hit what he thought was a whale)for seventy plus days and was hounded by sharks! Mr. Callahan’s ordeal took place in the Atlantic/Caribbean and is eloquently described in his book, ADRIFT. For another example in the Pacific, what about the USS Indianapolis disaster where survivors of the initial sinking(the Indianapolis was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine)were ravaged by sharks as they floated in the ocean hopefully awaiting rescue? Please try to observe Memorial Day in some way. Best wishes, Jim Morris http://starbulletin.com/97/12/22/features/index.html

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Food for thought: There are millions of sharks eaten by humans for every human eaten by a shark!

And good food they are….

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Food for thought: There are millions of sharks eaten by humans for every human eaten by a shark! And good food they are….

Yes, but this is very small consolation to those humans. john

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I may not worry at all at 10 million to 1, but I have a personal rule of never trying anything that has less than a one in 10 thousand chance of resulting in death or permanent disability.

…is life sorta a bore?

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Sharks are a totally insignificant part of boating and yet you pasting these exclusively in boating newsgroups.  Perhaps the folks in some of the natural history or hydrosciences would be more interested.

I have to disagree. As both a sailor and scuba diver (planning an extended cruise in the Pacific) shark awareness is key. If I spent my life in fear of everything that was a 10 million to 1 shot I would just crawl under my bed and hide.

Quite true. Agree 100% – but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t learn more about those risks. And frankly, for cruisers in the Pacific the odds of coming into direct contact with sharks seems much higher than 10,000,000:1. Knowing how to deal with them when you encounter them can help prevent the incident from becoming life threatening. Ignoring the issue does not help. J.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sharks are a totally insignificant part of boating and yet you pasting these exclusively in boating newsgroups.  Perhaps the folks in some of the natural history or hydrosciences would be more interested. I have to disagree. As both a sailor and scuba diver (planning an extended cruise in the Pacific) shark awareness is key. If I spent my life in fear of everything that was a 10 million to 1 shot I would just crawl under my bed and hide. Quite true. Agree 100% – but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t learn more about those risks. And frankly, for cruisers in the Pacific the odds of coming into direct contact with sharks seems much higher than 10,000,000:1. Knowing how to deal with them when you encounter them can help prevent the incident from becoming life threatening. Ignoring the issue does not help. J.

OK, I’ll say it again.  The postings do little if anything to describe any form of action, avoidance or deterrence that can be applied.  This particular thread was started with an account of Miss Australia of 1950 losing an arm to a shark.  They are simply sensationalism with little content other than "isn’t it terrible"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sharks are a totally insignificant part of boating and yet you pasting these exclusively in boating newsgroups.  Perhaps the folks in some of the natural history or hydrosciences would be more interested. I have to disagree. As both a sailor and scuba diver (planning an extended cruise in the Pacific) shark awareness is key. If I spent my life in fear of everything that was a 10 million to 1 shot I would just crawl under my bed and hide. Quite true. Agree 100% – but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t learn more about those risks. And frankly, for cruisers in the Pacific the odds of coming into direct contact with sharks seems much higher than 10,000,000:1. Knowing how to deal with them when you encounter them can help prevent the incident from becoming life threatening. Ignoring the issue does not help. J. OK, I’ll say it again.  The postings do little if anything to describe any form of action, avoidance or deterrence that can be applied.  This particular thread was started with an account of Miss Australia of 1950 losing an arm to a shark.  They are simply sensationalism with little content other than "isn’t it terrible" Ahem! Was she Miss Aussie before or after the incident? For anyone who believes that the threat from sharks should not be considered as a possibility when in a survival situation(depending on the venue), I refer you to the book, ADRIFT, which was written by Steve Callahan(who is now a writer/editor with CRUISING WORLD magazine). Mr. Callahan was adrift in a life raft(after his sailboat hit what he thought was a whale)for seventy plus days and was hounded by sharks! Mr. Callahan’s ordeal took place in the Atlantic/Caribbean and is eloquently described in his book, ADRIFT. For another example in the Pacific, what about the USS Indianapolis disaster where survivors of the initial sinking(the Indianapolis was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine)were ravaged by sharks as they floated in the ocean hopefully awaiting rescue?

I know that sharks exist, I know that shars bite. I read ADRIFT.  I know that sharks can be a threat. When are you going to add something that goes beyond the above.

Response:

If I spent my life in fear of everything that was a 10 million to 1 shot I would just crawl under my bed and hide.

Interesting…  I enjoyed the post anyways.  What are the actual chances of being attacked by a shark in:         1) known infested areas         2) the open ocean         3) worldwide I may not worry at all at 10 million to 1, but I have a personal rule of never trying anything that has less than a one in 10 thousand chance of resulting in death or permanent disability.

Response:

<snip Is there some other newsgroup in which this would be more appropriate? Sharks are a totally insignificant part of boating and yet you pasting these exclusively in boating newsgroups.  Perhaps the folks in some of the natural history or hydrosciences would be more interested. If I spent my life in fear of everything that was a 10 million to 1 shot I would just crawl under my bed and hide. Since you are posting via dejanews from an earthlink account, I suspect this is some sort of bizarre troll.

Response:

I am based in Los Angeles but had heard about that awful attack on the couple hanging on the anchor line where the gentleman pushed his newly-wed wife out of the way, and he was taken himself off of Australia. Hi Jim As much as I would love to help you with information I would be unable to put you in touch with the lady in question.  The reasons being in the past twelve months she has re-married and also had her first child a month ago. I really think she now has her tramatic experience behind her and is trying to get on with things.

That was a very harrowing experience for her, and I can understand how she would want for it to be behind her. However, your friend can take comfort in knowing that her husband really loved her in doing what he did for her. I did a shark dive last year at Nassau, Bahamas with a lady by the name of Heather Boswell. Before Heather attempted to do a shark dive with me for the NBC WEEKEND TODAY show(which was televised throughout the USA on July 13th, 1997), Heather had been attacked by a five meter plus white shark while she was swimming on the ocean surface over a hundred miles offshore of Chile. Heather was swimming with some friends in calm seas off of a NOAA research vessel that they were crewing on. A friend was videotaping them all in the water(and captured the attack on video in the process)when a huge dorsal fin appeared(Heather later indicated that it looked to be at least a meter tall above the water as it approached her). The shark started attacking a gentleman who was sitting upon some type of surfboard. He managed to drive it away by apparently poking the shark in the eye. The shark then turned its attention to Heather who was nearby in the water. Rescuers were trying to reach Heather in an inflatable boat which was dispatched from the larger NOAA vessel. They actually had a hold of her before the shark started to attack Heather. However, because of the sunscreen lotion that Heather was wearing, she slipped through the arms of the one of the rescuers, and the shark grabbed her leg and started to take her down into the depths. It was at that point that Heather felt sure she was going to die according to what she told me and NBC. She just wasn’t sure if she should intake water to drown herself or simply let the shark continue to eat her and die that way. Amazingly, the shark returned Heather to the surface at which point the rescuers were able to grab her again. However, this time the rescuers were in a "tug-of-war" with the shark, and Heather was the "rope". Heather heard a "popping sound"(thinking that her leg was being dislocated)as she broke free. However, once inside the boat, Heather looked down and saw that her leg had been bitten off at mid-thigh(Heather lost a lot of blood and almost died via exsanguination/shock). Meanwhile, the shark must have been very hungry as it started to attack another lady who was desperately trying to pull herself out of the water (using netting which was thrown over the side of the NOAA vessel). However, the lady was overweight and was having a very difficult time getting herself out of the water. At that time, a high-powered rifle was finally deployed to drive the shark away. It is assumed that the shark was killed, but this is not known for sure. I am all for the conservation of shark species worldwide. However, the above situation was an obvious exception. Over a year after the above attack, Heather showed amazing courage by accepting an invitation to shark dive with me in the Bahamas for the NBC WEEKEND TODAY television program. However, once the sharks appeared on scene with us at Nassau, Heather requested to discontinue the dive(understandably so). Nonetheless, her courage for even attempting the dive and the positive attitude that she radiates in her daily life are inspiration to us all. Eco continues about diver(newly-wed couple)who was killed by a white shark off of Australia: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One of the US talkback shows contacted her some time back (they were doing a show on tragic widows) and offered to fly her over to appear but she clearly had no desire to go through the events again.  Understandably so. I do not have any clearer details of the attack except what I posted.  The attack happened at Byron Bay which is considered out of the usual territory of a white pointer (it was in warm water up north).  The attack was quick. They saw it on the bottom, her husband pushed her and by the time she managed to turn around she only felt the force of the sharks tail. I’ve forgotton the exact size but from what I can remember it was the max. for the species.  A fishing boat did later hook it, it was longer than the boat, and it dragged the boat for miles, it regurgitated some stomach contents and broke free. There was talk of it being a sick/rogue shark due to its location. I am most interested to see if such electronic shark repellent technology could have prevented the above attack. I was the first to test the SharkPOD in the USA(off the coast of Los Angeles for the Discovery Channel, "Next Step" television program which is to be broadcast internationally if it hasn’t been already-it has already been broadcast twice throughout the USA. Ron and Valerie Taylor were the first to test the SharkPOD in Australia. I had met them both in Singapore during the ADEC dive equipment trade show where the SharkPOD was first being released commercially. You’ve met Ron and Val Taylor !!!  Now they are shark lovers extraordinaire !!!!   That Val Taylor is one brave lady.  Amazingly dedicated couple.

Yes, I had met both of them and have been in touch with them via email from time to time. I am a fan of their work as well. For more detail on my SharkPOD testing, please access the Honolulu Star- Bulletin Newspaper article which I had appeared in throughout the Hawaiian Islands on December 22, 1997: http://starbulletin.com/97/12/22/features/index.html Sounds really exciting !   I remember seeing a show where they were investigating using  some sort of sonar "wall" instead of netting.   IE; transmitter placed and one point – receiver at other end further down the coastline to prevent sharks entering the swimming area.  They were testing the concept with some sort of sonar wand that repelled the sharks. It was tricky stuff as the shark had to get close enough for them to prod it with the want but it was trying to ascertain whether the idea would work.  Do you know of any developments with this??

Not really. But will look into it for you. I am all for anything that helps the sharks and other sea creatures.  Our shark nets over here are marine animal death traps.

Me too. Did you see my earlier post on how the shark netting program in South Africa was being reduced because of budget cuts to the Natal Sharks Board (which supervises the netting program there)? The Star-Bulletin article was mostly accurate. However, the SharkPOD is not a "sonic" device as the article mistakenly depicts in the opening paragraph. Instead, the SharkPOD emits a continuous, cocooning electrical field which is intended to protect from possible shark attack. I will soon be using another electronic shark repellent technology which is currently being developed in Australia(by another manufacturer)and is being billed as an even more effective electronic repellent than the SharkPOD. I will be using this Australian technology with tiger and grey reef sharks throughout the Hawaiian Islands. Also with tiger, bull and lemon sharks in the Bahamas. And with great white sharks off of Dyer Island, South Africa. Thank you for providing your information.  It was very interesting.  I have been lucky enough to encounter sharks while diving – something one doesn’t forget in a hurry !!

Agreed! Look forward to email exchanging with you again..

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Question:

Don’t be so insecure, Muskie; nobody’s looking down their nose at you. In terms of making the kinds of choices you describe, e.g. where to fish, what kind of fish to fish for and etc., the reason the vast majority of people fish the way they do is *not* ethics, its aesthetic preference

Question:

The URL you seek is: http://www.seakayaker.com/gaddis/gadabout.htm

Response:

The URL you seek is: http://www.seakayaker.com/gaddis/gadabout.htm

Hi Dave I bookmarked the site. Thanks for taking the time to post the information. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

I’ve been away a week fishing the banks of Argentina for trout. What a blast. My friend told me someone posted info about a Gadabout Gaddis homepage, a hero to me in my childhood. Can anyone post the url here! Much Appreciated Vince

Response:

My friend told me someone posted info about a Gadabout Gaddis homepage, a hero to me in my childhood.

 Truly fun to watch, but you know…we never really got a look at the fly!….any guesses as to what he had on..?…worms…nightcrawlers.., cheese!….;-) Steve D.

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Question:

i am still always amazed when i see farm raised goldens for consumption at safeway… TimW

Response:

(AdFirmOne) writes: As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra.

<SNIP Not necessarily so, last year caught a nice 14" golden at a lake whose elevation was at 8200 ft.  Tough to find goldens in the Sierra below 10,000 ft., but they are there.  Check out Ralph Cutter’s Sierra Trout Guide.  It has all the fishable waters in the Sierra listed by county and whether a lake or a stream.  The listing not only includes what type of trout are in evidence there, but also what elevation and which topographical map it it can be found on.                                  Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

I agree that altitude is not the govering factor.  I know a lake in the norther sierra’s with goldens.  The lake is at roughly 7000′. No I won’t tell where.  It gets too much fishing preasure as it is. | |…… Seek harmony and balance in the mountains, find harmony and balance within…..

Response:

: I agree that altitude is not the govering factor.  I know a lake in : the norther sierra’s with goldens.  The lake is at roughly 7000′. I saw a mess of Goldens for sale in my local grocery store.  I couldn’t believe it!  I thought these fish were fairly rare? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: I agree that altitude is not the govering factor.  I know a lake in : the norther sierra’s with goldens.  The lake is at roughly 7000′. I saw a mess of Goldens for sale in my local grocery store.  I couldn’t believe it!  I thought these fish were fairly rare?

Those aren’t the same "goldens" that are often sought after here.  They’re farm grown fish with almost a solid gold color the bares no resemblance to the Volcano Creek or Little Kern Golden trout.  I’ve seen some pictures of "golden" trout that have been introduced in some of the high country lakes in Wyoming and they also bare little resemblance to the High Sierra natives.  They’re complete devoid of par marks and don’t have the red fins of the V.C. or L.K. golden.   — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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I’ve seen some pictures of "golden" trout that have been introduced in some of the high country lakes in Wyoming and they also bare little resemblance to the High Sierra natives.  They’re complete devoid of par marks and don’t have the red fins of the V.C. or L.K. golden.  

That’s because they’ve grown to larger size.  I’ve caught small Goldens in Wyoming and Montana that fit your description.  The size of these smaller Wyoming trout matches the bigger California trout, and so does their coloration. Both rainbows and goldens loose their par marks as they get bigger. — -Wayne Trzyna

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Both rainbows and goldens loose their par marks as they get bigger.

Not so.  California (e.g. Kern) goldens keep the par marks through life. Matt Carey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — -Wayne Trzyna

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(AdFirmOne) writes: As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these beautiful fish. Good luck tho. As I said, I know of one lake that contains goldens that can be reach by vehicle with sufficient ground clearance.  I also know of several others that require no more then an hour hike.  None of these are going to be high producers.  I would guess that none of these lakes are higher then 10,500′ in elevation either.  I’m not so sure that 10.5K or even 10K is some sort of magic number for Sierra Goldens.

Hi    Golden Trout were rainbow trout less than 50,000 years ago.  They evolved into goldens in the Kern River system as low as 7,000 ft. They are considered a high elevation fish largely because that was where we planted them in the mid 1800s and early 1900’s.  They have the ability to live in most waters that can support bows.    There are about a dozen roadside golden trout waters and many less than an hour from the car (don’t ask). You’ll need to do some sleuthing, but that’s half the fun!    Tight lines, Ralph —

Response:

Hello, I tried to post something like this already, but it doesn’t seem to have made it. My family is going on a weekend trip camping and fishing.  We are looking for possible sites to find some golden trout, but with the tight constraints–we are on a 2-day weekend trip.  This limits how far we can pack in and how far from LA (where the rest of my family lives) we can go. Any information would be helpful and appreciated. Thanks, Matt Carey

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Matt      It has been a few years but about 30-40  miles north of Bishop is a lake called convict lake. It’s fising used to be outstanding. Hike above this lake they say about 3 miles and you come to some very high mountain lakes that used to have golden trout. I tried this hike once with may not so good leg and never reached these lakes but am told they are there and seen them on the maps.      I think Convict lake’s resort used to have an internet site. Look for it at any web search engine (webcrawler, altavista, infoseek, etc.). This used to be one of my favorite fishing spots. Watch the weather reports for the storms come upon this area VERY quickly. HTH Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I tried to post something like this already, but it doesn’t seem to have made it. My family is going on a weekend trip camping and fishing.  We are looking for possible sites to find some golden trout, but with the tight constraints–we are on a 2-day weekend trip.  This limits how far we can pack in and how far from LA (where the rest of my family lives) we can go. Any information would be helpful and appreciated. Thanks, Matt Carey

Response:

In ‘89 I did a trip up to Lake Mildred (or Martha, not sure of the name)…it’s the first lake in the chain above Convict. That lake produced many fish, but no goldens…Convict Lake was terribly crowded and I’m sure it hasn’t gotten any better…. I’ll be fishing in the Lone Pine/Whiteny area the 4th of July weekend…hoping to get up to some of the higher lakes in that area…I’ll let you all know what happens.

Response:

As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these beautiful fish. Good luck tho.

Response:

There are a few places that do not require 8 hour hikes. More like 15 minutes or less. (These places should be held dear, but they do not hold large goldens-if there are such a thing). Some of these are roads approaching the Kern River drainage and some of the Sierra mountain pass roads. Mail me directly and I can give you a little more info. -Don M.

Response:

Matt     It has been a few years but about 30-40  miles north of Bishop is a lake called convict lake. It’s fising used to be outstanding. Hike above this lake they say about 3 miles and you come to some very high mountain lakes that used to have golden trout. I tried this hike once with may not so good leg and never reached these lakes but am told they are there and seen them on the maps.

There are quite a few lakes in this area along the eastern slope of the Sierra that are about the same distance from a lake that you can drive to.  Go up over Piute pass (out of Rock Creek) and you’ll get into some good Golden Trout country as well.  In the June Lake area Gibbs and Kidney lake are about the same distance *up* as the lake above Convict lake.  There are some golden trout lakes in the Mammoth Lakes and 20 Lakes Basin (near Saddlebag Lake). I even know of a lake that you can drive to that is a bit further north that has Golden trout in it. I’m a bit reluctant to provide a lot of details about a lot of these places however.  I wouldn’t have hesitated about 3-4 years ago but with the commercialization of the net I’m afraid that I’d see a pay-per-view web site or a 1-900 number with all the Golden trout lakes for anyone (and everyone) to use to find these spots.   — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these beautiful fish. Good luck tho.

As I said, I know of one lake that contains goldens that can be reach by vehicle with sufficient ground clearance.  I also know of several others that require no more then an hour hike.  None of these are going to be high producers.  I would guess that none of these lakes are higher then 10,500′ in elevation either.  I’m not so sure that 10.5K or even 10K is some sort of magic number for Sierra Goldens. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

Stuff Deleted… As I said, I know of one lake that contains goldens that can be reach by vehicle with sufficient ground clearance.  I also know of several others that require no more then an hour hike.  None of these are going to be high producers.  I would guess that none of these lakes are higher then 10,500′ in elevation either.  I’m not so sure that 10.5K or even 10K is some sort of magic number for Sierra Goldens. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Elevation isn’t the determining factor, as you have said. It’s the temp. and cleanness of the water. It’s just that you tend to find both at higher elevations. It also seems that you are fishing the same places I am. Please don’t post the locations. It took me years of hiking and searching to find these places. I would hate to see them become the next hot spot to go fly fishing. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

AdFirmOne sandbags: : As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve : fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required : at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A : short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these : beautiful fish. Good luck tho. Nice try- Do you think the Kern is at 10.5K?  More like 6,000.  Basically, Goldens live in clean, cold water and are very sensitive to environmental impact.  There really is no altitude limit, as evidenced by their presence in many lakes and streams throughout the easter sierras.  Sure, you can hike to lakes at 9,000-10,000 ft. and catch goldens.  In fact, the DFG uses some remote lakes around cottonwood pass for hatcheries (*DO NOT* fish at these lakes- it’s illegal).  However, this does not mean that goldens aren’t found at lower elevations.  Many streams are within a few hours hike, and some lakes have parking lots a few miles from the shore- both contain goldens. Get a topo, and call some fly shops in the bishop area. Best regards, Hans — "The worst monotonous drone coming from a lectern or the most eye-splitting textbook written in turgid English is nothing in comparison to the psychological Sahara that starts right in your bedroom and spurns the horizon."         -Joseph Brodsky, from "In praise of Boredom"          delivered as a commencement address at Dartmouth College. Hans T.H. Beernink, Department of Biochemistry, University of Vermont

Response:

Question:

I have a Tempo and camp/fish every other weekend. I love it!  It is a great car but space is somewhat limited.  I’m sure the car can handle the drive but you will have to pack wisely.  Space is adequate for 2 on short (1 week) journeys, but I suspect you may run out of places to store your gear if you will be out longer than that. Jim

Response:

[ Article crossposted from rec.travel.usa-canada ] [ Author was Ray F Pero ] My wife and I will be travelling around the Yukon from late July until late August this year.  We will fly into Whitehorse, rent a car and drive around the territory.  We also hope to hook up with some local (inexpensive) outfitters for a guided wilderness experience. I need answers to three questions to help me plan our trip. 1) The best rental car deal appears to be for a Ford Tempo.  Would a Tempo be good enough for the drive up the Dempster Highway to Inuvik and back? 2) We intend to camp along the way to save some money on accomodations.   How much can I expect to pay per night at the campgrounds?  Is it necessary to reserve space ahead of time or can I just show up? 3) Many of the trips listed in the brochures I’ve received in the mail regarding wilderness adventure travel are prohibitively expensive.  Would there be any local guides who we could hire by the day for a more reasonable amount of money?  I don’t expect anyone to carry my gear or cook for me, I simply want someone who knows the local terrain and conditions and who could add an element of safety to the trip.  I’m hoping I can save money with the added benefit of tailoring the trip to meet our wishes.  How much would a local guide charge per day for such a trip?  We will bring all of our own equipment (except possibly for a canoe should we decide upon a river trip). Any help with the above questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Response:

[ Article crossposted from rec.travel.usa-canada ] [ Author was Ray F Pero ] My wife and I will be travelling around the Yukon from late July until late August this year.  We will fly into Whitehorse, rent a car and drive around the territory.  We also hope to hook up with some local (inexpensive) outfitters for a guided wilderness experience. I need answers to three questions to help me plan our trip. 1) The best rental car deal appears to be for a Ford Tempo.  Would a Tempo be good enough for the drive up the Dempster Highway to Inuvik and back?

Yes, I think you would make it.  It is a really well kept gravel road in comparison to any gravel roads in the lower 48, and high clearance is not a requirement.  Make sure to bring at least one if not more spare tires in good shape and full of air as the gravel really eats up the tires. The only challenge on this road is the remoteness should anything go wrong. I blew one tire and it was shredded by the time I got the car stopped, the gravel is very unforgiving.  Also slow WAY down and/or stop and pull over as far as you can to the right whenever a truck is oncoming as they throw lots of gravel and don’t slow down for you.  Much better to take a gravel spray stopped than moving.  Also stop in Dawson before you start the trip and check on the current conditions at the visitors center.  They have nice videos to preview the trip and really get you excited and informed before you go.  Also plan on more days than you think for the trip. 2) We intend to camp along the way to save some money on accomodations.   How much can I expect to pay per night at the campgrounds?  Is it necessary to reserve space ahead of time or can I just show up?

No need to reserve space, there is no overcrowding, although if you are worried about getting a choice campsite then stop early in the day, like 4 or 5pm instead of 8,9, or 10pm.  Although all the campsites are great and firewood is included in your self registration fee.  Be sure to bring some sort of axe though as it is not pre-chopped. 3) Many of the trips listed in the brochures I’ve received in the mail regarding wilderness adventure travel are prohibitively expensive.  Would there be any local guides who we could hire by the day for a more reasonable amount of money?  I don’t expect anyone to carry my gear or cook for me, I simply want someone who knows the local terrain and conditions and who could add an element of safety to the trip.  I’m hoping I can save money with the added benefit of tailoring the trip to meet our wishes.  How much would a local guide charge per day for such a trip?  We will bring all of our own equipment (except possibly for a canoe should we decide upon a river trip).

Local guides are definitely available; just look for flyers in resteraunts and on posts, in sporting goods stores, asking around, etc. They are definitely the best way to go IMHO because they are usually locals who have lived there for a good long time and have a lot of character.  My personal recommendation is to plan to spend some quality time in Teslin, south of Whitehorse.  Teslin Lake is large, but provides excellent fishing opportunities, especially for Lake Trout.  There is also great fishing in the streams that feed the lake, and many challenging hiking trails.  I’m sure even canoeing would be a possibility.  We arrived in Teslin and wanted to fish for Lake Trout, found a flyer describing a guide, at the general store, went to the resteraunt and found a pay phone inside. We proceeded to make the call and it turned out the guide was in the resteraunt and answered on his mobile phone.  It was hilarious.  So we booked him for the next day and we had a blast.  I would definetly recommend him and if you would like his info I may be able to find it at home.  He also had all kinds of tips for the rest of our trip.  He informed us of where the locals tell people to fish and where the locals fish.  He also did guided hiking, rafting, etc. Well worth the $, and much cheaper than an outfitter. Any help with the above questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Have a great time; I wish I was going again. Feel free to email me with more questions. Ken Koca — Lockheed Martin Astronautics   (303) 977-5464 Mail Stop: T-3725 P.O. Box 179                   "Don’t think about Denver, CO  80201              memories, make them."

Response:

Question:

Hi out-there ! I’m an fly-fisher from Northern part of Sweden and i’m looking forward to discuss the wonderful waters and wilderness areas that we can enjoy, here round the arctic circle. I hope to read from you ! / A.Ronnback

Response:

(Anders Ronnback,9558,1xxx-xx) writes: I’m an fly-fisher from Northern part of Sweden and i’m looking forward to discuss the wonderful waters and wilderness areas that we can enjoy, here round the arctic circle.

I am curious how northern european water rights work. I know that most waters in the British Isles and France are private, is it the same in northern Scandinavia?. I wonder because the videos of the Alta, for example, show a very sparcely populated terrain ( I know the Alta is in Norway but I assume that there might be simularities in water usage). Thanks for the info. Rodrigo

Response:

(Anders Ronnback,9558,1xxx-xx) writes:

I’m an fly-fisher from Northern part of Sweden and i’m looking forward to discuss the wonderful waters and wilderness areas that we can enjoy, here round the arctic circle. Hi, from a third generation Swede in Seattle.  My family was in Sweden the previous Summer, & although time was short I would have loved to try out some of your Atlantic Salmon fishing.  I had just come from Scotland where I had tried Slamon fishing on Islay. Larry Johnson

Response: