Question:

Gottcha!  I like putting you in a corner where you can’t excape.  :-)

One last time…  Got what?  I own the vehicles I desire.  I have a very nice 401k with 80% in money instruments and the balance in the stock market. In addition, I directly own shares in Exxon-Mobil and Schlumber. I will continue to keep my house at 72 in summer and 74 in winter.  I am convinced that the global warming Chicken Little crowd doesn’t have a clue. We will continue to use hydrocarbons until the market price creates an alternative. We are going to Red Rock Canyon in the giant SUV tomorrow.  There are no corners there. Have a great Yugo day. — Dave

Response:

Gottcha!  I like putting you in a corner where you can’t excape.  :-) One last time…  Got what?  I own the vehicles I desire.  I have a very nice 401k

What is referred to today as being a "201".  ;-) with 80% in money instruments and the balance in the stock market.

Sorry about your wippin in the stock market ever since the Bush administration! In addition, I directly own shares in Exxon-Mobil and Schlumber.

Ah Ha!  There’s the interest in drilling ANWR? I will continue to keep my house at 72 in summer and 74 in winter.  I am convinced that the global warming Chicken Little crowd doesn’t have a clue. We will continue to use hydrocarbons until the market price creates an alternative.

It’s commin. We are going to Red Rock Canyon in the giant SUV tomorrow.  There are no corners there. Have a great Yugo day.

out of your mind when you’re toolin around) Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Dave

Response:

X-noarchive: yes In addition, I directly own shares in Exxon-Mobil and Schlumber.  Wow, that’s incredible: you actually *own* stock  shares in real companies ?  I am really impressed.  Did you buy them all by yourself, or did your mom  have to sign for them ?

If you are going to keep the troll going, you have to respond more quickly than four days later.  I had almost forgotten what you were slobbering about.  Yes, I saved my nickels until I could put on my Buster Browns and walk down to Charlie’s place and place the order all by myself. Thanks for the unintended compliment about my age.  You must have peeked!! — Dave

Response:

Sorry about your wippin in the stock market ever since the Bush administration!

The stock market began it’s decline in March, 2000 while Clinton was still president.  Bush did not take office until January 20, 2001. — "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." — Ayn Rand Who is Rich McCormack?  Find out at… http://home.pacbell.net/macknet/

Response:

Sorry about your wippin in the stock market ever since the Bush administration! The stock market began it’s decline in March, 2000 while Clinton was still president.  Bush did not take office until January 20, 2001.

And the decline has little to do with either one of them.  Economic cycles are very powerful and the Federal Reserve has MUCH more power than the president.

Response:

Sorry about your wippin in the stock market ever since the Bush administration! The stock market began it’s decline in March, 2000 while Clinton was still president.  Bush did not take office until January 20, 2001.

Oh, I’ll agree that the stock market and the economy as a whole was beginning a slow down but George has done absolutely nothing (other than the tax give-away to the rich) to stimulate this economy.  While George sits behind his desk plotting ways to avenge his mother and father’s attempted assignation by Saddam, the economy and your retirement egg nose dives.  What plans have you heard lately from George on getting this economy rolling? I’d like to hear his plans for our economy.  What were they again? Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." — Ayn Rand Who is Rich McCormack?  Find out at… http://home.pacbell.net/macknet/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, you’re just too simple to find the answer.  Fall behind your old cliche of personal energy consumption.  You’re a true Bushite. Sorry, but I defined you and your stripe as hypocrites first.  You’ll just have to chose another epithet. If the shoe fits—–and with you, it does–hypocrite. Jerry Thanks for playing, but you have become rapidly boring.  If you continue to strike at the bait at least come at it from a different direction.

Gottcha!  I like putting you in a corner where you can’t excape.  :-) In the interim I will be driving my big Suburban, pulling my honkin’ huge boat out to Lake Meade to run aimlessly in circles. — Dave

Well good, I had fun too. Jerry

Response:

……pulling my honkin’ huge…… Dave Well good, I had fun too. Jerry

Well, uh, that’s nice…….um……ya’ll remember to wash your hands though, o.k.?    :( Wolfgang

Response:

Until your total personal energy consumption does not exceed that of the average Indian or Pakistani, you are a feel-good ‘caring’ Liberal.  Until *your* total personal energy consumption does not exceed that  of the average third world country, and American boys stop dying in  places like Kuwait for your "right" to burn as you see fit, your  benchmark standards for others are null and void.

Thanks for playing, but you lose.  I am not the one trying to set standards for ‘those people’ who don’t see the light.  Why do feel good enviro-wackjobs always want to pull the first world down to the level of the third world?  Your efforts should be directed in pulling the third world up to the standards of the first world. — Dave

Response:

Again, you’re just too simple to find the answer.  Fall behind your old cliche of personal energy consumption.  You’re a true Bushite. Sorry, but I defined you and your stripe as hypocrites first.  You’ll just have to chose another epithet. If the shoe fits—–and with you, it does–hypocrite. Jerry

Thanks for playing, but you have become rapidly boring.  If you continue to strike at the bait at least come at it from a different direction. In the interim I will be driving my big Suburban, pulling my honkin’ huge boat out to Lake Meade to run aimlessly in circles. — Dave

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Until *your* total personal energy consumption does not exceed that  of the average third world country, and American boys stop dying in  places like Kuwait for your "right" to burn as you see fit, your  benchmark standards for others are null and void. Thanks for playing, but you lose.  I am not the one trying to set standards for ‘those people’ who don’t see the light.  Why do feel good enviro-wackjobs always want to pull the first world down to the level of the third world?  Your efforts should be directed in pulling the third world up to the standards of the first world.

Well, I for one have spent most of my life addressing one of the problems Greg mentions, with considerable success: far fewer American boys now risk death because the weapons we give them are more effective than any Vietnam era vet can imagine. Look how few American boys it took to topple the Taliban. So enjoy using all the energy you want with my best wishes. If we need a bigger share, we’ll simply eliminate some more competators!

Response:

Well, I for one have spent most of my life addressing one of the problems Greg mentions, with considerable success: far fewer American boys now risk death because the weapons we give them are more effective than any Vietnam era vet can imagine.

As a Vietnam area veteran I suspect that I could easily take offense at the notion that I (as well as a few million others) lack the imagination to deal why. Meanwhile, it occurred to me to wonder what use a doctor of divinity degree would be to weapons designer.  I was going to ask but, having just conjured my own doctorate in metaphysics and put it to good use, I now not only see the answer but also that it is entirely superfluous.  Given your astonishing educational achievements as well as your doubtless conservative estimate of your native intelligence, I am sure you will have no trouble seeing my point and that you can easily imagine the obvious implications and ramifications, particularly with regard to the rather knotty problem of your shoulders chafing against your buttocks. Look how few American boys it took to topple the Taliban.

Indeed.  And how many Americans appreciate the fact (or are even aware, for that matter) that the low casualties among the good guys were largely due to the fact that the Taliban fighters were stupefied by several weeks of being bombarded by Vito authored tracts translated into Farsi? So enjoy using all the energy you want with my best wishes.

Thank you.  In a near perfect world, all that was lacking was your blessing and that, it is now clear, has been remedied. If we need a bigger share, we’ll simply eliminate some more competators!

You are well on your way. Wolfgang inanity kills!      :(

Response:

Until *your* total personal energy consumption does not exceed that of the average third world country, and American boys stop dying in places like Kuwait for your "right" to burn as you see fit, your benchmark standards for others are null and void.

Egad!   I did not (honestly) think there were so MANY absolutely clueless – but nevertheless rabid – twits out there!   Another <plonk Will Sill KD3XR Spout bafflegab to infants, they giggle or cry Spout it on usenet, you get challenged.

Response:

snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re belching the same mantra so many others like you do when it comes to environmental exploitation.  You call everyone who uses power for their computer or burns gas, even in their mini-automobile a hypocrite even though they are striving for an end to the blatant environmental abuses you see within the Bush administration.  I’ve heard it all before from ones like you who blindly support Bush in everything he does.  "Types" like you who skirt the issues and ignore environmental science and sell their souls at the expense of everyone else’s environment have gotten exactly what you were paid for—-and by that I mean by voting for Bush you "sold" your vote for a Bush tax cut while fully knowing that screwballs stance against the environment.   Go suck a tailpipe, hypocrite. Jerry Did we touch a raw nerve here?

Oh no, not at all.  I just call a spade a spade. I find it interesting you didn’t answer the question about ANWR or take the enviro-wacko challenge.  Users of non-renewable energy or products which produce HUGE amounts of toxins in manufacture (computers) and then complain about the current Administration truly are hypocrites.

I did answer the question.  You’re just too stupid to read through the lines.  Duh.  Try to read my statement again and see if you can come up with something. I don’t blindly support everything Bush does.  He and I are having a major disagreement at the moment.  That is neither here nor there. I don’t skirt the issues.  I don’t wear skirts.  I do read ALL the literature and listen to position papers by ALL the experts and form my own judgements. Until your total personal energy consumption does not exceed that of the average Indian or Pakistani, you are a feel-good ‘caring’ Liberal.

Again, you’re just too simple to find the answer.  Fall behind your old cliche of personal energy consumption.  You’re a true Bushite. Sorry, but I defined you and your stripe as hypocrites first.  You’ll just have to chose another epithet.

If the shoe fits—–and with you, it does–hypocrite. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This means nothing to the Bush administration.  Bush does exactly what he wants with any resource whether it’s mining, salmon, etc., etc. Power without discipline.  Power without knowledge.  Power to pay back his political contributors and it’s costing all of you.  You who voted for Bush, you’re getting exactly what you voted for.  Breathe deep and bend over. Jerry You bet I am!  I want cheap gasoline to run in my wife’s Suburban.  If you want to drive a Yugo, feel free.  By the way, I don’t have to bend over. The tailgate of my Chevrolet 1 ton pickup is tall enough to fill the boat gas tanks without bending over. I’m all for gasoline, within reason.  But when it’s a situation of getting oil over everything else, even ANWR, it’s time to step back and take a long look.  And you think the reason for Bush’s gas obsession is for the "little man"?  Ha.  It’s called greed and big oil money, Dave.  Again, bend over and breathe deep.  How’s it feel to sell your soul for some gasoline? Jerry Ah Ha!  As long as you and those of your stripe get to define "within reason", right?  I’ve heard the mantra too long and have become too cynical. "More people" should use public transportation. "More people" should use natural fiber clothing. "More people" should buy gasoline efficient micro econo-boxes. "More people" should keep their homes at 60 degrees in the winter. "More people" should keep their homes at 85 degrees in the summer. Funny thing that.  The ones shouting the loudest show up in their private jets and black Suburbans to the Green Granola Earth First Save The Whale Kill a Child and Save a Tree rally. Somehow "More people" is always "Those people." Even ANWR?  Have you ever been to ANWR?  Do you even know where Kaktovic is? I’ve got a hot tip for you.  The coastal plain of ANWR is NOTHING like the touchy, feely pictures and videos that somehow always make it into the news. Hell, I’m all for $50/barrel crude oil in the United States.  I own stock in oil companies and still have grandchildren in Alaska.  High priced oil will just make their dividends increase. When you are living a 100% renewable life that includes cutting your own firewood, growing your own food and fiber and DEFINITELY not using high tech, energy consuming junk such as computers, get back to me.  Otherwise, you are being selective in describing "More people." — Dave

You’re belching the same mantra so many others like you do when it comes to environmental exploitation.  You call everyone who uses power for their computer or burns gas, even in their mini-automobile a hypocrite even though they are striving for an end to the blatant environmental abuses you see within the Bush administration.  I’ve heard it all before from ones like you who blindly support Bush in everything he does.  "Types" like you who skirt the issues and ignore environmental science and sell their souls at the expense of everyone else’s environment have gotten exactly what you were paid for—-and by that I mean by voting for Bush you "sold" your vote for a Bush tax cut while fully knowing that screwballs stance against the environment.   Go suck a tailpipe, hypocrite. Jerry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah Ha!  As long as you and those of your stripe get to define "within reason", right?  I’ve heard the mantra too long and have become too cynical. "More people" should use public transportation. "More people" should use natural fiber clothing. "More people" should buy gasoline efficient micro econo-boxes. "More people" should keep their homes at 60 degrees in the winter. "More people" should keep their homes at 85 degrees in the summer. Funny thing that.  The ones shouting the loudest show up in their private jets and black Suburbans to the Green Granola Earth First Save The Whale Kill a Child and Save a Tree rally. Somehow "More people" is always "Those people." Even ANWR?  Have you ever been to ANWR?  Do you even know where Kaktovic is? I’ve got a hot tip for you.  The coastal plain of ANWR is NOTHING like the touchy, feely pictures and videos that somehow always make it into the news. Hell, I’m all for $50/barrel crude oil in the United States.  I own stock in oil companies and still have grandchildren in Alaska.  High priced oil will just make their dividends increase. When you are living a 100% renewable life that includes cutting your own firewood, growing your own food and fiber and DEFINITELY not using high tech, energy consuming junk such as computers, get back to me. Otherwise, you are being selective in describing "More people." — Dave You’re belching the same mantra so many others like you do when it comes to environmental exploitation.  You call everyone who uses power for their computer or burns gas, even in their mini-automobile a hypocrite even though they are striving for an end to the blatant environmental abuses you see within the Bush administration.  I’ve heard it all before from ones like you who blindly support Bush in everything he does.  "Types" like you who skirt the issues and ignore environmental science and sell their souls at the expense of everyone else’s environment have gotten exactly what you were paid for—-and by that I mean by voting for Bush you "sold" your vote for a Bush tax cut while fully knowing that screwballs stance against the environment.   Go suck a tailpipe, hypocrite. Jerry

Did we touch a raw nerve here?  I find it interesting you didn’t answer the question about ANWR or take the enviro-wacko challenge.  Users of non-renewable energy or products which produce HUGE amounts of toxins in manufacture (computers) and then complain about the current Administration truly are hypocrites. I don’t blindly support everything Bush does.  He and I are having a major disagreement at the moment.  That is neither here nor there. I don’t skirt the issues.  I don’t wear skirts.  I do read ALL the literature and listen to position papers by ALL the experts and form my own judgements. Until your total personal energy consumption does not exceed that of the average Indian or Pakistani, you are a feel-good ‘caring’ Liberal. Sorry, but I defined you and your stripe as hypocrites first.  You’ll just have to chose another epithet. — Dave

Response:

how about suggestions for carrying lighweight lighting to the Cape??  think it could be used to attract speckled trout while fly fishing at night??

Response:

Whats wrong with a few underground bumps 1 mile deep asshole

Response:

This means nothing to the Bush administration.  Bush does exactly what he wants with any resource whether it’s mining, salmon, etc., etc.  Power without discipline.  Power without knowledge.  Power to pay back his political contributors and it’s costing all of you.  You who voted for Bush, you’re getting exactly what you voted for.  Breathe deep and bend over. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is an outrage. the system is now broken for our public lands. The BLM, even after protest from the EPA and record setting comments, still claimed that the 5,000 explosions, 415 miles of seismic lines would have " no significant impact on the habitat" lol!!!! this is by far the most grotesque and rogue administration this country has ever seen. They are simply not following due proccess or the law. http://ens-news.com/ens/oct2002/2002-10-10-09.asp Bush Administration Sued Over Utah Energy Project SALT LAKE CITY, Utah, October 10, 2002 (ENS) – Three conservation groups have filed suit to halt the largest oil and gas exploration project ever approved in Utah. The Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance (SUWA), the Wilderness Society and the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC), represented by Earthjustice, sued the Bush administration over a project located south of Dinosaur National Monument, in a remote area known as the Book Cliffs. The project would encompass more than 3,000 square miles of public lands, including seven areas proposed for wilderness designation. The project would require 5,000 explosive detonations along 457 miles of seismic lines, and would take up to two years to complete. "We are seeing a repeated and senseless pattern in which the Administration is actually targeting for exploration the most fragile, important, and scenic lands," said Pam Eaton, regional director of the Wilderness Society’s Four Corners States Office. "There is a place for oil and gas development activities on public lands, but it’s absurd for BLM to simply ignore critical values such as wilderness and impacts to wildlife and vegetation." Just weeks after receiving a record breaking number of public comments – including critical comments from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) – the BLM found that the project would have "no significant impact on the environment," and declined to prepare a comprehensive environmental impact statement. Veritas DGC Inc., of Houston would conduct the work for its clients, oil companies that it has refused to identify. Veritas is one of the largest oil exploration companies in the world with more than $456 million in revenue in fiscal year 2002. It has operations in 19 countries on six continents. "We have never seen this extreme, single minded approach to oil development that the BLM is taking now," said Steve Bloch, SUWA staff attorney. "With orders from Washington to make oil drilling its ‘No. 1 priority,’ both Utah’s wildlife and magnificent redrock landscapes are being ruined forever for the chance to produce a few months of oil." The BLM granted its approval on October 4, and put the decision into "full force and effect." The agency also had pre-work meetings with Veritas that day. The BLM would not release its decision record to conservationists unless they made the day long trip to the BLM’s Vernal office, and then refused to release additional correspondence files, all of which are public documents. "The BLM’s actions here – including its disregard of the comments of thousands of concerned citizens and its refusal to share documents – make a mockery of Interior Secretary [Gale] Norton’s oft repeated commitment to ‘Consultation, Cooperation, and Communication in the service of Conservation.’ Here in southern Utah, their actions speak louder than words," said Johanna Wald of NRDC. The BLM disregarded comments by the EPA which noted that "the [environmental assessment] does not adequately characterize the direct and indirect effects to wildlife habitat and soils; the effects of [subsequent off-road vehicle use]; or disclose similar actions, cumulative effects and reasonably foreseeable development within or adjacent to the Project area." The agency also ignored over 25,000 public comments in opposition to the project. "This is another outrageous example of the Bush administration pushing through energy projects without considering their impacts on natural resources," said Susan Daggett, attorney for Earthjustice who is representing the coalition. "The public should have a voice in this process. Let’s not sacrifice the public’s interest at the alter of the Bush-Cheney energy plan." * * *

Response:

| Whats wrong with a few underground bumps 1 mile deep asshole It’s not the few underground bump (pump?) 1 mile deep but the collateral damage that the drilling process entails.  And before you start jumping on me for not knowing anything about the oil business I grew up in the oil patch.

Response:

This means nothing to the Bush administration.  Bush does exactly what he wants with any resource whether it’s mining, salmon, etc., etc.  Power without discipline.  Power without knowledge.  Power to pay back his political contributors and it’s costing all of you.  You who voted for Bush, you’re getting exactly what you voted for.  Breathe deep and bend over. Jerry

You bet I am!  I want cheap gasoline to run in my wife’s Suburban.  If you want to drive a Yugo, feel free.  By the way, I don’t have to bend over. The tailgate of my Chevrolet 1 ton pickup is tall enough to fill the boat gas tanks without bending over. — Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This means nothing to the Bush administration.  Bush does exactly what he wants with any resource whether it’s mining, salmon, etc., etc.  Power without discipline.  Power without knowledge.  Power to pay back his political contributors and it’s costing all of you.  You who voted for Bush, you’re getting exactly what you voted for.  Breathe deep and bend over. Jerry You bet I am!  I want cheap gasoline to run in my wife’s Suburban.  If you want to drive a Yugo, feel free.  By the way, I don’t have to bend over. The tailgate of my Chevrolet 1 ton pickup is tall enough to fill the boat gas tanks without bending over.

I’m all for gasoline, within reason.  But when it’s a situation of getting oil over everything else, even ANWR, it’s time to step back and take a long look.  And you think the reason for Bush’s gas obsession is for the "little man"?  Ha.  It’s called greed and big oil money, Dave.  Again, bend over and breathe deep.  How’s it feel to sell your soul for some gasoline? Jerry

Response:

This is an outrage. the system is now broken for our public lands. The BLM, even after protest from the EPA and record setting comments, still claimed that the 5,000 explosions, 415 miles of seismic lines would have " no significant impact on the habitat" lol!!!! this is by far the most grotesque and rogue administration this country has ever seen. They are simply not following due proccess or the law. Anytime that bush can screw the EPA, I am for it.

Zeke, you’re a freak.  :-) Jerry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This means nothing to the Bush administration.  Bush does exactly what he wants with any resource whether it’s mining, salmon, etc., etc.  Power without discipline.  Power without knowledge.  Power to pay back his political contributors and it’s costing all of you.  You who voted for Bush, you’re getting exactly what you voted for.  Breathe deep and bend over. Jerry You bet I am!  I want cheap gasoline to run in my wife’s Suburban.  If you want to drive a Yugo, feel free.  By the way, I don’t have to bend over. The tailgate of my Chevrolet 1 ton pickup is tall enough to fill the boat gas tanks without bending over. I’m all for gasoline, within reason.  But when it’s a situation of getting oil over everything else, even ANWR, it’s time to step back and take a long look.  And you think the reason for Bush’s gas obsession is for the "little man"?  Ha.  It’s called greed and big oil money, Dave.  Again, bend over and breathe deep.  How’s it feel to sell your soul for some gasoline? Jerry

Ah Ha!  As long as you and those of your stripe get to define "within reason", right?  I’ve heard the mantra too long and have become too cynical. "More people" should use public transportation. "More people" should use natural fiber clothing. "More people" should buy gasoline efficient micro econo-boxes. "More people" should keep their homes at 60 degrees in the winter. "More people" should keep their homes at 85 degrees in the summer. Funny thing that.  The ones shouting the loudest show up in their private jets and black Suburbans to the Green Granola Earth First Save The Whale Kill a Child and Save a Tree rally. Somehow "More people" is always "Those people." Even ANWR?  Have you ever been to ANWR?  Do you even know where Kaktovic is? I’ve got a hot tip for you.  The coastal plain of ANWR is NOTHING like the touchy, feely pictures and videos that somehow always make it into the news. Hell, I’m all for $50/barrel crude oil in the United States.  I own stock in oil companies and still have grandchildren in Alaska.  High priced oil will just make their dividends increase. When you are living a 100% renewable life that includes cutting your own firewood, growing your own food and fiber and DEFINITELY not using high tech, energy consuming junk such as computers, get back to me.  Otherwise, you are being selective in describing "More people." — Dave

Response:

This is an outrage. the system is now broken for our public lands. The BLM, even after protest from the EPA and record setting comments, still claimed that the 5,000 explosions, 415 miles of seismic lines would have " no significant impact on the habitat" lol!!!! this is by far the most grotesque and rogue administration this country has ever seen. They are simply not following due proccess or the law. http://ens-news.com/ens/oct2002/2002-10-10-09.asp Bush Administration Sued Over Utah Energy Project SALT LAKE CITY, Utah, October 10, 2002 (ENS) – Three conservation groups have filed suit to halt the largest oil and gas exploration project ever approved in Utah. The Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance (SUWA), the Wilderness Society and the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC), represented by Earthjustice, sued the Bush administration over a project located south of Dinosaur National Monument, in a remote area known as the Book Cliffs. The project would encompass more than 3,000 square miles of public lands, including seven areas proposed for wilderness designation. The project would require 5,000 explosive detonations along 457 miles of seismic lines, and would take up to two years to complete. "We are seeing a repeated and senseless pattern in which the Administration is actually targeting for exploration the most fragile, important, and scenic lands," said Pam Eaton, regional director of the Wilderness Society’s Four Corners States Office. "There is a place for oil and gas development activities on public lands, but it’s absurd for BLM to simply ignore critical values such as wilderness and impacts to wildlife and vegetation." Just weeks after receiving a record breaking number of public comments – including critical comments from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) – the BLM found that the project would have "no significant impact on the environment," and declined to prepare a comprehensive environmental impact statement. Veritas DGC Inc., of Houston would conduct the work for its clients, oil companies that it has refused to identify. Veritas is one of the largest oil exploration companies in the world with more than $456 million in revenue in fiscal year 2002. It has operations in 19 countries on six continents. "We have never seen this extreme, single minded approach to oil development that the BLM is taking now," said Steve Bloch, SUWA staff attorney. "With orders from Washington to make oil drilling its ‘No. 1 priority,’ both Utah’s wildlife and magnificent redrock landscapes are being ruined forever for the chance to produce a few months of oil." The BLM granted its approval on October 4, and put the decision into "full force and effect." The agency also had pre-work meetings with Veritas that day. The BLM would not release its decision record to conservationists unless they made the day long trip to the BLM’s Vernal office, and then refused to release additional correspondence files, all of which are public documents. "The BLM’s actions here – including its disregard of the comments of thousands of concerned citizens and its refusal to share documents – make a mockery of Interior Secretary [Gale] Norton’s oft repeated commitment to ‘Consultation, Cooperation, and Communication in the service of Conservation.’ Here in southern Utah, their actions speak louder than words," said Johanna Wald of NRDC. The BLM disregarded comments by the EPA which noted that "the [environmental assessment] does not adequately characterize the direct and indirect effects to wildlife habitat and soils; the effects of [subsequent off-road vehicle use]; or disclose similar actions, cumulative effects and reasonably foreseeable development within or adjacent to the Project area." The agency also ignored over 25,000 public comments in opposition to the project. "This is another outrageous example of the Bush administration pushing through energy projects without considering their impacts on natural resources," said Susan Daggett, attorney for Earthjustice who is representing the coalition. "The public should have a voice in this process. Let’s not sacrifice the public’s interest at the alter of the Bush-Cheney energy plan." * * *

Response:

Question:

"LAST GAS BEFORE YOSEMITE.  NO GAS IN YOSEMITE VALLEY!"  Their regular unleaded was $2.309.  Both statements were absolutely true – they were the last station before the Yosemite West entrance and there is no gas in Yosemite Valley.   What they

didn’t mention was that about 10 miles inside of the gate, at Crane Flats, there is a gas station selling unleaded regular for $2.019. This reminds me of something I learned the hard way….. on I-95 heading north in Florida there’s a billboard…. LAST CHANCE TO BUY GAS IN FLORIDA… Oh, I think to myself… better buy now. So I did. Then I crossed into Georgia and gas is much much cheaper…. oops. Hunter

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "LAST GAS BEFORE YOSEMITE.  NO GAS IN YOSEMITE VALLEY!"  Their regular unleaded was $2.309.  Both statements were absolutely true – they were the last station before the Yosemite West entrance and there is no gas in Yosemite Valley.   What they didn’t mention was that about 10 miles inside of the gate, at Crane Flats, there is a gas station selling unleaded regular for $2.019. This reminds me of something I learned the hard way….. on I-95 heading north in Florida there’s a billboard…. LAST CHANCE TO BUY GAS IN FLORIDA… Oh, I think to myself… better buy now. So I did. Then I crossed into Georgia and gas is much much cheaper…. oops. Hunter

You forgot the "<g", right? Tell me you forgot the "<g". — bill Theory don’t mean squat if it don’t work.

Response:

You forgot the "<g", right? Tell me you forgot the "<g".

Nope, It was my first visit driving to Florida….. and driving back out of Florida.  I wasn’t pulling the trailer, I was in my 1996 Suburban.  I didn’t know about the price difference, I hadn’t bought gas in GA on the way down. /-: I thought it was funny that they had that LAST CHANCE TO BUY GAS IN FLORIDA sign….. it cost me, but it was funny. Hunter

Response:

You forgot the "<g", right? Tell me you forgot the "<g". Nope, It was my first visit driving to Florida….. and driving back out of Florida.  I wasn’t pulling the trailer, I was in my 1996 Suburban.  I didn’t know about the price difference, I hadn’t bought gas in GA on the way down. /-: I thought it was funny that they had that LAST CHANCE TO BUY GAS IN FLORIDA sign….. it cost me, but it was funny. Hunter

I have successfully restrained myself from commenting further. — bill Theory don’t mean squat if it don’t work.

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FWIW, we drove through portions of NC, VA, WV, MD, PA, NY, CT, MA, and VT. (We didn’t hit NJ, RI, NH, or ME.) The highest prices we saw were in CT and NY.

I probably should have posted a link in my previous message. Here it is: http://www.taxfoundation.org/variousrates.html — Don Bradner www.arcatapet.net

Response:

FWIW, we drove through portions of NC, VA, WV, MD, PA, NY, CT, MA, and VT. (We didn’t hit NJ, RI, NH, or ME.) The highest prices we saw were in CT and NY. I probably should have posted a link in my previous message. Here it is: http://www.taxfoundation.org/variousrates.html

        I assure you those tax rates are *way* wrong- heck, we have a $.05/gallon *county* tax. The table at http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/gasol… (which is from a little more than a year ago) give the Florida state gas tax as $.136/gallon-($.259 for diesel)  with a footnote that various other taxes add an average of $.123/gallon.         That said- Florida has no income tax, so gas taxes are, IMHO, the best way to charge the user for the service. — Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com

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I saw a clever gimmick when we were in California in July.  We were staying just outside of the west entrance to Yosemite and there was a gas station there with a big sign – "LAST GAS BEFORE YOSEMITE.  NO GAS IN YOSEMITE VALLEY!"  Their regular unleaded was $2.309.  Both statements were absolutely true – they were the last station before the Yosemite West entrance and there is no gas in Yosemite Valley.   What they didn’t mention was that about 10 miles inside of the gate, at Crane Flats, there is a gas station selling unleaded regular for $2.019.On the other side, at Wawone, there is also a station selling for the same price – just nothing in the valley.

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Last year when prices took a big jump some here posted that they were going to have to cancel their vacations.  I remember pointing out that for the trip they planned the extra cost would be less than $20.  All they would have to do is pass up one of the T-Shirt counters.

Well, that works for folks who routinely hit the T-shirt counters. But what about those of us who already pass them up? Does this mean we can no longer afford to travel? <g WalMart might figure they can charge $10 a night for parking!

Can’t do it. If they did, they’d be in the campground business, which is not what their zoning and business licenses would permit (I’d bet). And the local campground owners would then have a legitimate complaint. Wal-Mart can give it away, but they can’t charge for it… GB in NC

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last year when prices took a big jump some here posted that they were going to have to cancel their vacations.  I remember pointing out that for the trip they planned the extra cost would be less than $20.  All they would have to do is pass up one of the T-Shirt counters. Well, that works for folks who routinely hit the T-shirt counters. But what about those of us who already pass them up? Does this mean we can no longer afford to travel? <g WalMart might figure they can charge $10 a night for parking! Can’t do it. If they did, they’d be in the campground business, which is not what their zoning and business licenses would permit (I’d bet). And the local campground owners would then have a legitimate complaint. Wal-Mart can give it away, but they can’t charge for it… GB in NC

I’m sure most people do the same as we do.  If traveling gas is higher than expected, we just cut back in other areas, usually dining out.  Too bad for the restaurants but we allot a certain amount for traveling and we would rather cut back on dining out than miss some side trip.  We’ll remember the scenery long after we would have forgotten the meal. LZ

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last year when prices took a big jump some here posted that they were going to have to cancel their vacations.  I remember pointing out that for the trip they planned the extra cost would be less than $20.  All they would have to do is pass up one of the T-Shirt counters. Well, that works for folks who routinely hit the T-shirt counters. But what about those of us who already pass them up? Does this mean we can no longer afford to travel? <g WalMart might figure they can charge $10 a night for parking! Can’t do it. If they did, they’d be in the campground business, which is not what their zoning and business licenses would permit (I’d bet). And the local campground owners would then have a legitimate complaint. Wal-Mart can give it away, but they can’t charge for it… GB in NC

Wail, down here WM’s gone into the used car business – put up a building in the parking lot for a sales office, roped off a couple of lanes, and installed a heavy-duty turntable. Of course, if the CGs in the area are getting $10 for full hookups, WM might only charge $3 for dry camping and $7 for full … (c8

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Took a day trip up to the Detroit Lakes area of Minnesota yesterday to spend a day fishing with two of the kids and their families. They have a cabin rented for a week but we had some appointments so didn’t want to take the motorhome up for just a day or two. Gas prices vary quite a bit in only 50-60 miles.  The entire Detroit Lakes area has gas at 1.33 which is not bad for Labor Day weekend.  As you get closer to the Koch refinery at St. Paul, the price goes up instead of down.  Half way there you are up to 1.50 a gallon. You will never convince me that local cabals don’t huddle and set gas prices.  That hogwash about transportation costs just doesn’t fly.  If that were true, the gas stations near refineries would have half price gas. LZ Gas prices are set by one criteria: "What the market can bear."  I see this all the time where I live. The places closest to me always have matching prices which are some of the highest in the area. Price drop by as much as ten cents/gal on down the road, and can vary more greatly between the stations. I almost never fill up locally because of that. Yep, and everything else we buy.  How come we don’t get big posts about what hamburger, milk and other stuff costs all over the country?  I would guess one reason is because the stores don’t post their prices on big billboards outside the supermarkets.

Nope.  It’s because there are alternatives and therefore competition. If beef is high, you buy pork or chicken and soon beef comes down.  If you need gas to go to work, you jolly well pay the price.  I appreciate those who stop traveling when gas prices go up, as it takes the pressure off those who still want to travel. The part about what the market can bear is only partly true where food is concerned.  Many foods are seasonal in nature, so you eat your fill when they are cheap and pass them by when they are expensive.  Freezers allow you to take advantage of sales and stockpile food but it is not easy to stockpile gasoline and still have it with you on the road.   It’s true our gas is cheap compared to most other countries but we don’t tax gasoline to pay a good share of our social welfare costs as these countries do. LZ

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How come we don’t get big posts about what hamburger, milk and other stuff costs all over the country?  I would guess one reason is because the stores don’t post their prices on big billboards outside the supermarkets.

True, they don’t. But gas stations need to post only four prices to cover just about everybody. Anyway, to answer your question, assuming you were serious (and maybe you weren’t): RVers are probably more aware of fuel prices than food prices, because we have lifestyles that can be directly affected by fuel prices (over which we really have no control) — and while everybody has to eat, on the road and at home, there are food choices to suit every budget and taste. GB in NC

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How come we don’t get big posts about what hamburger, milk and other stuff costs all over the country?  I would guess one reason is because the stores don’t post their prices on big billboards outside the supermarkets. True, they don’t. But gas stations need to post only four prices to cover just about everybody. Anyway, to answer your question, assuming you were serious (and maybe you weren’t): RVers are probably more aware of fuel prices than food prices, because we have lifestyles that can be directly affected by fuel prices (over which we really have no control) — and while everybody has to eat, on the road and at home, there are food choices to suit every budget and taste. GB in NC

Yeah, I do the same thing.  I buy where I get the best price.  Always have.  And it is not just RVers that complain about the prices.  I used to commute 35 miles to work.  Fuel price was pretty important to me then too.  But when you get down to it the extra cost for gasoline is not as much as one might expect.  Of course it depends on how much travel you do.  Assuming 20K miles per year and if you get 10 MPG = 2000 gallons. If you pay as much as 20 cents extra that is $400 a year.  A little over a dollar a day.   10K miles per year would probably be more reasonable = $200 a year extra.   Last year when prices took a big jump some here posted that they were going to have to cancel their vacations.  I remember pointing out that for the trip they planned the extra cost would be less than $20.  All they would have to do is pass up one of the T-Shirt counters. But as with any commodity you charge what you can get.  The like the hotels the RV parks would charge $100 a night if they thought they could get the customers.  Watch out!!  WalMart might figure they can charge $10 a night for parking!  I guess they figure the goodwill is worth that much.

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   I assure you those tax rates are *way* wrong- heck, we have a $.05/gallon *county* tax.

I see that, and that some counties are over 10 cents. It is clear that Florida is grossly represented in the table I pointed to, but many other states are right on or very close. It is probably impossible to compile a simple table that takes everything into account, since some states tax only on dollar amount (fuel-specific, not referring to the general sales taxes), and many add sales tax, including tax on the other taxes. The net effect, though, is that with only a couple of exceptions, most states have "final" rates in the 15-30 cent range, with the point being that it does not come close to explaining the 70-80 cent range typically found around the country. — Don Bradner www.arcatapet.net

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You will never convince me that local cabals don’t huddle and set gas prices. I believe you.  That is, I believe you’ll never be convinced to anything about which you’ve made up yer mind.  It is, of course, foolhardy to believe there are NO "local cabals", but what some folks perceive as conspiracy is more often snooping around to see what the market will bear. Not illegal OR immoral. Will KD3XR

In that case I need to hang a big sign on the side of a truck and park it near the freeway.  I could let people know that gas is 15 cents per gallon cheaper not too many miles down the road. Wonder how they would like THOSE apples?  Think gas prices would come down?  I bet they would. LZ

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Took a day trip up to the Detroit Lakes area of Minnesota yesterday to spend a day fishing with two of the kids and their families. They have a cabin rented for a week but we had some appointments so didn’t want to take the motorhome up for just a day or two. Gas prices vary quite a bit in only 50-60 miles.  The entire Detroit Lakes area has gas at 1.33 which is not bad for Labor Day weekend.  As you get closer to the Koch refinery at St. Paul, the price goes up instead of down.  Half way there you are up to 1.50 a gallon. You will never convince me that local cabals don’t huddle and set gas prices.  That hogwash about transportation costs just doesn’t fly.  If that were true, the gas stations near refineries would have half price gas. LZ Gas prices are set by one criteria: "What the market can bear."  I see this all the time where I live. The places closest to me always have matching prices which are some of the highest in the area. Price drop by as much as ten cents/gal on down the road, and can vary more greatly between the stations. I almost never fill up locally because of that.

Yep, and everything else we buy.  How come we don’t get big posts about what hamburger, milk and other stuff costs all over the country?  I would guess one reason is because the stores don’t post their prices on big billboards outside the supermarkets.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Took a day trip up to the Detroit Lakes area of Minnesota yesterday to spend a day fishing with two of the kids and their families. They have a cabin rented for a week but we had some appointments so didn’t want to take the motorhome up for just a day or two. Gas prices vary quite a bit in only 50-60 miles.  The entire Detroit Lakes area has gas at 1.33 which is not bad for Labor Day weekend.  As you get closer to the Koch refinery at St. Paul, the price goes up instead of down.  Half way there you are up to 1.50 a gallon. You will never convince me that local cabals don’t huddle and set gas prices.  That hogwash about transportation costs just doesn’t fly.  If that were true, the gas stations near refineries would have half price gas. LZ You might check on variance in local taxes. Some Metro areas include extra taxes for mass transit or anything the govmint decides.

Not applicable in this case.  I don’t know where Detroit Lakes is, but seem to remember lots of Indian Reservations in Manysoda.

The White Earth reservation is not far north of there but I doubt that is the reason.  Last week I took the same roads and bought gas for $1.30 only 45 miles up the road, at least a hundred miles from the nearest res.  We have one in East Texas selling gas with no taxes, so much cheaper.

We travel through many Indian reservations and I have never seen a significant difference.  A few cents at most. LZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – MTV — "MTV" Reply needs modification to work, or in Outlook Express send New Norton AV for any virus.

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Prices over here vary by state, largely due to variations in the state gas taxes. That is commonly mentioned, but hard to work out in reality.

Okay, I bow to your greater wisdom. I haven’t bothered to check tax rates — I just watch the prices as I drive. You saw a variation of 26 cents per gallon. As of December 31, 2001, only two states had rates less than 4 cents per gallon, Florida and Alaska, neither on your route. North Carolina was 24.3 cents, and Vermont was 19 cent.

That’s interesting. Gas at stations throughout VT was a nickel to a dime more than at comparable stations that I know about in NC. And while of course I didn’t encounter GA or FL on this trip, GA always has *far* lower prices than FL. I would have assumed the tax to be lower in GA. (I know — that’s what I get for assuming.) I don’t know your route, but the highest I can find in states you might have passed through was Rhode Island at 28 cents (highest state of all). Connecticut was 25 cents per gallon. At the other end, the lowest would be New Jersey at 10.5 cents.

FWIW, we drove through portions of NC, VA, WV, MD, PA, NY, CT, MA, and VT. (We didn’t hit NJ, RI, NH, or ME.) The highest prices we saw were in CT and NY. We paid the most in CT and MA and the least in VA — but of course we didn’t buy gas in every state. We have a range of "up to" <g 500 miles, but I usually refuel at between 250 and 400. GB in NC

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Took a day trip up to the Detroit Lakes area of Minnesota yesterday to spend a day fishing with two of the kids and their families. They have a cabin rented for a week but we had some appointments so didn’t want to take the motorhome up for just a day or two. Gas prices vary quite a bit in only 50-60 miles.  The entire Detroit Lakes area has gas at 1.33 which is not bad for Labor Day weekend.  As you get closer to the Koch refinery at St. Paul, the price goes up instead of down.  Half way there you are up to 1.50 a gallon. You will never convince me that local cabals don’t huddle and set gas prices.  That hogwash about transportation costs just doesn’t fly.  If that were true, the gas stations near refineries would have half price gas. LZ

Gas prices are set by one criteria: "What the market can bear."  I see this all the time where I live. The places closest to me always have matching prices which are some of the highest in the area. Price drop by as much as ten cents/gal on down the road, and can vary more greatly between the stations. I almost never fill up locally because of that.

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We drove 2600+ miles in nine days and averaged 15+ mpg — using mostly secondary roads and driving more slowly than usual. We paid anywhere from $1.199 to $1.459. (Prices over here vary by state, largely due to variations in the state gas taxes.)

That is commonly mentioned, but hard to work out in reality. You saw a variation of 26 cents per gallon. As of December 31, 2001, only two states had rates less than 4 cents per gallon, Florida and Alaska, neither on your route. North Carolina was 24.3 cents, and Vermont was 19 cent. I don’t know your route, but the highest I can find in states you might have passed through was Rhode Island at 28 cents (highest state of all). Connecticut was 25 cents per gallon. At the other end, the lowest would be New Jersey at 10.5 cents. Out here where I am in California, the state gas tax is 18 cents. Prices locally vary between 1.839 and 1.859, down about 4 cents over the past 3 months. Reason given is the cost of barging it into Humboldt Bay is high. There are only two distributors (regardless of the brand of station you go to, you will find the same plain silver tankers filling them up). The argument falls apart, though, when you visit smaller communities 50 miles away serviced by the same tankers filled from the same barges, and the price will be lower. Presumably, as Will says, the demand/supply ratio is higher here in the population centers around the bay, so we pay more because they can get more. — Don Bradner www.arcatapet.net

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Hi from a newbie,

Hi, Andy, and welcome. $1.50 a gallon, makes me wish I lived in America, prices over here in UK are

Question:

…….no one in Roff knows me….

I do!  I do! Idiot. Wolfgang

Response:

I’m going to give it a rest regarding Mike Connor as long as he discontinues the attacks and uncouth name calling. I have not, no matter what any bottom dweller in Roff would like to believe, started any of this pathetic nonsense.

The funniest thing I have heard in my 45 years… Paul

Response:

"My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private" I’m a little confused?? Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick

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"My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private" I’m a little confused?? Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick

I know.  New Brunswick doesn’t have as much oxygen as the lower 48. Take deep breaths Lawrence. George Gehrke

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I’m going to give it a rest regarding Mike Connor as long as he discontinues the attacks and uncouth name calling. I have not, no matter what any bottom dweller in Roff would like to believe, started any of this pathetic nonsense. The funniest thing I have heard in my 45 years… Paul

SEE, Paul!  There you go again! George Gehrke "who ended this thread two posts ago"

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"My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private" I’m a little confused??

It’s very long, complicated, confusing, amazing, not a little amusing, sad, extraordinary……um ……and a whole bunch of other adjectives. The short version.  Mike asked George not to send him any more emails some time ago.  He made it quite clear that failure to comply with this request would result in the emails being posted to ROFF and the rest, as they say, is history.  Opinions vary on whether George is genuinely and thoroughly demented or merely genuinely demented but still sane enough to be responsible for his actions.  It should not prove difficult to determine who allies him(or her)self with which camp but, for the record, it don’t matter to me.    :) Wolfgang

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private" I’m a little confused?? Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick I know.  New Brunswick doesn’t have as much oxygen as the lower 48. Take deep breaths Lawrence.

Ah, PERFECT timing!  You see what I mean, Lawrence?      :) Wolfgang p.s. shhhh!  don’t let on that you know that new brunswick isn’t a u.s.

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I just can’t contain myself any longer…. New Brunswick   1.. Abbr. NB or N.B. A province of eastern Canada on the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Part of French Acadia and then the province of Nova Scotia, it became a separate province in 1784 after an influx of Loyalists from the newly independent United States. New Brunswick joined Nova Scotia, Quebec, and Ontario to form the confederated Dominion of Canada in 1867. Fredericton is the capital and St. John the largest city. Population: 696,405.   2.. A landmass not owned and not part of the USA or any other country except for Canada. Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick Canada (I think)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private" I’m a little confused?? Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick I know.  New Brunswick doesn’t have as much oxygen as the lower 48. Take deep breaths Lawrence. Ah, PERFECT timing!  You see what I mean, Lawrence?      :) Wolfgang p.s. shhhh!  don’t let on that you know that new brunswick isn’t a u.s.

Response:

Spoil-sport! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just can’t contain myself any longer….   2.. A landmass not owned and not part of the USA or any other country except for Canada. Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick Canada (I think)

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I’, George here really hasn’t changed except Roff has.

        that is exactly right.  and that is because roff is darwinian, and is in the process of rejecting you.  the day will come, not that long from this day, that you will simply be a bad memory. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just can’t contain myself any longer…. New Brunswick   1.. Abbr. NB or N.B. A province of eastern Canada on the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Part of French Acadia and then the province of Nova Scotia, it became a separate province in 1784 after an influx of Loyalists from the newly independent United States. New Brunswick joined Nova Scotia, Quebec, and Ontario to form the confederated Dominion of Canada in 1867. Fredericton is the capital and St. John the largest city. Population: 696,405.   2.. A landmass not owned and not part of the USA or any other country except for Canada. Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick Canada (I think)

Uh oh!  Good God ya’ll, don’t just stand there!  Quick, what’s the number for 911?  Hurry, for pity’s sake, he’s swallowed a fuckin dictionary!     Wolfgang

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that is exactly right.  and that is because roff is darwinian, and is in the process of rejecting you.  the day will come, not that long from this day, that you will simply be a bad memory.

you’re such an appreciative and faithful friend. as i pointed  out in this thread.  crow begets crow.  now, if you only understood and was more responsible to yourself, perhaps your misguided ravings towards old friends would cease?  that is too much to expect from a raving raven, huh? bad memories indeed?  you have a lot of nerve to talk buster because if you’re anything, you’re not darwinian at all wayne.  I am but a mirror of yourself.  haven’t you got that figured out yet wayne? think man!  think. Your pal in the great northwest, George "who is being nice.  very nice"

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  The short version.  Mike asked George not to send him any more emails some time ago.  He made it quite clear that failure to comply with this request would result in the emails being posted to ROFF and the rest, as they say, is history.  Opinions vary on whether George is genuinely and thoroughly demented or merely genuinely demented but still sane enough to be responsible for his actions.  It should not prove difficult to determine who allies him(or her)self with which camp but, for the record, it don’t matter to me.    :) Wolfgang

Oh yes it does.   It matters a lot to you.  You live on misery Weirdwolf. George Gehrke had you figured out years ago You’re not a bad guy Wolfie, you’re just cofused about your importance in life.  Without others, you would have no identy in Roff. tilt* !

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Read the post and try for comprehension.  NORTH is UP.  It’s up Weirdwolf. UP, UP, UP on the map . . . dummy. George Gehrke wake up pal.  wake up.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private" I’m a little confused?? Lawrence Manzer New Brunswick I know.  New Brunswick doesn’t have as much oxygen as the lower 48. Take deep breaths Lawrence. Ah, PERFECT timing!  You see what I mean, Lawrence?      :) Wolfgang p.s. shhhh!  don’t let on that you know that new brunswick isn’t a u.s.

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Read the post and try for comprehension.  NORTH is UP.  It’s up Weirdwolf. UP, UP, UP on the map . . . dummy. George Gehrke wake up pal.  wake up.

Er, ‘cuse me, von Wrongtoffen, but "north" ain’t "up," either on the map or otherwise.  And I have no idea what may be up "Weirdwolf," but it ain’t north, neither…yeah, you musta been one real serious asset to the Commies during that little to-do in Korea…heck they probably even have an "Order of National Flag" waitin’ for you, if only you could find your way there to collect it…yessir, I can see it now: Kim Chong-il and "P’yongyang Ginkles," whatta photo-op…maybe your buddy Ted could fly you and his ex over to relive your glory days…

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Read the post and try for comprehension.  NORTH is UP.  It’s up Weirdwolf. UP, UP, UP on the map . . . dummy. George Gehrke wake up pal.  wake up.

The ladies will, unfortunately (well, maybe it’s really fortunate when you think about it, but that’s another matter entirely), be unable to comprehend this on quite the visceral level that a man can, but ya know how ya cringe every time ya see some poor bastard get hit in the nuts on one of those funniest home video shows?  THAT’S what life is like for your would be supporters every time they see a post come up listing you as the author. Thanks. I KNEW I could count on you.      :) Idiot. Wolfgang

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I just can’t contain myself any longer…. New Brunswick   1.. Abbr. NB or N.B. A province of eastern Canada on the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Part of French Acadia and then the province of Nova Scotia, it became a separate province in 1784 after an influx of Loyalists from the newly independent United States. New Brunswick joined Nova Scotia, Quebec, and Ontario to form the confederated Dominion of Canada in 1867. Fredericton is the capital and St. John the largest city. Population: 696,405.   2.. A landmass not owned and not part of the USA or any other country except for Canada.

       3. A late model bowling ball.

Response:

I have to admit, you got me on that one. Lawrence Manzer NB

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just can’t contain myself any longer…. New Brunswick   1.. Abbr. NB or N.B. A province of eastern Canada on the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Part of French Acadia and then the province of Nova Scotia, it became a separate province in 1784 after an influx of Loyalists from the newly independent United States. New Brunswick joined Nova Scotia, Quebec, and Ontario to form the confederated Dominion of Canada in 1867. Fredericton is the capital and St. John the largest city. Population: 696,405.   2.. A landmass not owned and not part of the USA or any other country except for Canada.        3. A late model bowling ball.

Response:

Idiot. Wolfgang

Talking to yourself again Weirdwolf?  You’re not an idiot.  You are a protracted peace in a state of confusion.  Just remember, if you’re an idiot that makes you a genius.  That’s not so bad. George Gehrke "caring about you"

Response:

I’m going to give it a rest regarding Mike Connor as long as he discontinues the attacks and uncouth name calling. I have not, no matter what any bottom dweller in Roff would like to believe, started any of this pathetic nonsense. I regard most in Roff as really neat people and as long as people are civil to me, I will always be respectful towards them.  My policy will continue to be that of condemning in private and praising in public.  If everyone in Roff would do the same and open their E-mail boxes like men, then I think it would be a step in the right direction for them to talk to each other in a manly and mature fashion. My E-mail is always open to everyone, but  E-mails are private things to be read in private and are not an open license to call others names or to demean them in private either. Men of logic use the best communication tools possible to get their points across.  The ability to tell a man to go to hell and make them look forward to the trip is known as "Rocky Mountain Diplomacy" which is something I hope to teach Wayne Harrison, given enough time . . . let’s say, five years? That aside, George here really hasn’t changed except Roff has.  When anyone dishes out nonsense, they should be able to eat a plate of raw crow in return.  Crow begot crow from this author.  At least, I’ve always tried to be civil but the next time anyone comes knocking on my door, the invite they receive will be an immediate reaction to the first words out of their mouths.  Come as a friend.  The rest of you who are not friends with anyone will find one here.  That anyone has so many friends they can’t use another needs thought on their part. Frankly, no one in Roff knows me.  I mean, no one.  Until you do or possibly fly fish with me as I guide you down the No Name River, it would be wise you reserve judgment. That said, all I can offer is that anyone who is man enough to step up to the plate and get ready for the first pitch. STRIKE ONE!  Oh?  You didn’t see that one, huh?  Okay, care to come inside and try some fly tying instead, (?) because you can’t hit for shit. George Gehrke "wisdom comes from a life-time of studying miles of rivers and seeing thousands of fly fishermen come and go.  Some of them you never forget because of their kindnesses and pleasant nature."  gg This is why I’m going to give it a rest. Back to fly fishing for me and my web site: http://www.gink.com

Response:

Question:

Kiyu,   Or you could buy a Blood Knot Machine.  See http://home.earthlink.net/~eharrison241 . Ernie

Aw Geez!!!! Or you could buy a Blood Knot Machine. See http://home.earthlink.net/~eharrison241 .

Sorry Ernie. Shoulda prefaced my post with that.<G Check is in the mail. Do I have to wear a blindfold to operate this thing or can I peek?<G Kiyu

Response:

Kiyu,   Or you could buy a Blood Knot Machine.  See http://home.earthlink.net/~eharrison241 .

____  Why buy a Blood Knot Machine when I already have the fingers trained? New Motto:  Free Knots by Hands, Inc. : ) — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/ "the saga continues"

Response:

  Or you could buy a Blood Knot Machine.  See http://home.earthlink.net/~eharrison241 . Ernie Aw Geez!!!! Sorry Ernie. Shoulda prefaced my post with that.<G Check is in the mail. Do I have to wear a blindfold to operate this thing or can I peek?<G Kiyu

I don’t know Kiyu, you probably could tie one with a blindfold, but I need all the help I can get. Ernie

Response:

That IS weird. The weakest link for me is invariably the double surgeons between leader and tippet. It is possible to attach tippet with a blood/barrel knot astream, I saw a guide do just that with an elaborate sequence of hand over hand maneuvers and a deft twist of the wrist. If I could master that technique my leader to tippet connection would be quite a bit stronger, but what the hell, if you’re snagged the line has to break somewhere. — Ken Fortenberry

I used to do both types of clinch knots but now I’ve converted to the uni-knot as it is very quick, good for geezerhood afflicted eyesight and not noticeably weaker than any other.  One good thing about the uni, if you screw up, it breaks easily in a pull test.  It’s a habit now after losing so many nice fish, I pull test each knot. I lost a lot of fish on my western trip because I had grown careless in how I tightened my double surgeon knots.   I follow this regime rigidly now: 1.  Form identical loops and equal length tags. 2.  Wet knot very well. 3.  Pull tight with tags and main line together. 4.  Ensure tightness by pulling down on the thin tag. 5.  Trim tags. 6.  NEVER tighten by pulling on the tippet and leader only.  It pinches the tippet a millimetre or so down from the knot.  Basically, the tippet gets extruded through the tightened knot.  The knot can be pull tested plus running the loop back and forth as a vertical upside-down "U" will expose any weak kink as it will fold at that point. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I went up to Waterville with Ed the other night. Nice report, Dave. Thanks for writing it up.

You’re welcome. heading out for the hex hatches shortly and I will report on that too… … I sat fumbling with a small caddis fly, unable to "stuff the loop" and finish the knot (I fear my vision is starting to show it’s age), … No use fighting the approach of geezerhood, you’re just moments away from Metamucil cocktails and liver spots. As far as "stuff the loop", does that mean you’re tying an improved clinch ? I used to use the improved clinch but read somewhere that unless you tie it exactly perfect it’s actually LESS strong than a regular clinch. Since then I’ve been using the regular clinch, with exactly 5 turns, and it’s worked out well.

metamucil??? GAK!!! ’tis no doubt regrettably true, sooner or later I will get there. Geezerhood, my I’ll be working my way up in the world. My 20/10 vision is finally burning out, no doubt from squinting at SQL statements trying to figure out how to join a couple of tables and not bury our database server…sigh…(he chants "I hate Oracle 8.1.6, I hate oracle…") guess I’m a bit old fashioned, but the improved clinch works ok for me, I usually break off at my blood knots if I break at all, but the old standard Maxima seems to be pretty damn good to me most of the time. Flyfish

Response:

 I recently "discovered" the surgeons knot and took to  it because it is simple.  But I started to experience  knot failures, so I’ve returned to the version of the  blood knot in Sosin & Kreh’s book.  It’s more difficult  but it’s doable, even when you’re trying to tie one with  fish visible all around you.  It works for a broad range  of differences in lines, though you may have to increase  the number of turns.  One combination that does *not*  work well, tho it shouldn’t be an issue in fly fishing, is  Fireline to softer fluorocarbon lines such as the Stren.

Double up the Fireline using a Spider Hitch and use double uni-knots to joint it to comparable strength mono. Mu

Response:

Hi Dave, Good to see you back! Went afishin’ with Lloyd Hielbrunn today.  He is a ROFFian up from Florida. Just what Boone, NC needs another Floridian!  Lloyd and I will hit the speed bumps of Upper Creek in the morning, in honor of Daytripper. Fishy report to follow tomorrow’s activities. Hasta Las Vegas Opie  –Settin’ up another sucker–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve Z. writes: The improved loop pretty much doubles the amount of time it takes me to tie the clinch knot (and recent events have convinced me to keep that time to a minimum , so I’d *love* to believe that it doesn’t help. But it sure seems to in my case. Of course, there might be other explanations for my hook-loss reduction–better casting means a healthier tippet, perhaps I "play" the fish better now, maybe the fact that I only catch small fish means no break-offs <g, etc etc. I hafta go along with Forty on this one.  I tie a clinch knot using a tool — at least 5 turns, sometimes 6 — and I seldom have a failure.  When I do have a failure it is with a knot that I tied quickly and didn’t test by pulling hard on it.  Always use spit to reduce the friction. Dave, back from another wonderful trip to Maine watching my grandsons catch big brookies…..

Response:

Kiyu,    Or you could buy a Blood Knot Machine.  See http://home.earthlink.net/~eharrison241 . Ernie "Kiyu" wrote <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A few years ago at the Fly Fishermen site they posted an article from a reader about a simplified method of tying the blood knot. He tied the ends of the leader & tippet together with a simple overhand knot then made a loop keeping the overhand knot at the top. He then fed the tippet through the loop six times, holding the tippet & leader apart with his thumb & finger at the third pass. He fed the overhand knot down through the separated tippet & leader made at the third pass. He pulled it snug then snipped off the overhand knot. The only problem with this is the tag ends both go through the center of the knot from the same direction. The knot works well but I spent a lot of time trying to figure out a simple way to get the tag ends to feed through from opposite sides the way they are supposed to be. Thought about it ’til my head hurt but couldn’t improve it. Kiyu

Response:

That IS weird. The weakest link for me is invariably the double surgeons between leader and tippet. It is possible to attach tippet with a blood/barrel knot astream, I saw a guide do just that with an elaborate sequence of hand over hand maneuvers and a deft twist of the wrist. If I could master that technique my leader to tippet connection would be quite a bit stronger, but what the hell, if you’re snagged the line has to break somewhere.

Ken, A few years ago at the Fly Fishermen site they posted an article from a reader about a simplified method of tying the blood knot. He tied the ends of the leader & tippet together with a simple overhand knot then made a loop keeping the overhand knot at the top. He then fed the tippet through the loop six times, holding the tippet & leader apart with his thumb & finger at the third pass. He fed the overhand knot down through the separated tippet & leader made at the third pass. He pulled it snug then snipped off the overhand knot. The only problem with this is the tag ends both go through the center of the knot from the same direction. The knot works well but I spent a lot of time trying to figure out a simple way to get the tag ends to feed through from opposite sides the way they are supposed to be. Thought about it ’til my head hurt but couldn’t improve it.   One good thing came out of it though. When I tie the surgeons knot I have a heck of a time keeping the knot together. I found that tying the ends together made it a lot easier to feed them through the loop and I can knock the knot out now a lot quicker. Kiyu

Response:

Ken Fortenberry wrote…

[snip] When I brought the issue to ROFF I was told three things: (1) use exactly 5 turns (2) make sure to add the "improved loop" to the knot, and (3) lick the knot before tightening. I was nearly always using 5 turns anyway, but when I added that improved loop, my hook losses all but dissappeared. Sometimes I lick the knot and sometimes I don’t–that doesn’t seem to make an appreciable difference as long as I tighten slowly. [snip] –Steve

Of the 3 items I thing #3 is the most important. I use more than 5 turns for anthing over 5X and only use the improved chinch when tying large hooks on a very light leader. Paul

Response:

Ken writes: That IS weird. The weakest link for me is invariably the double surgeons between leader and tippet.

amen! Like you say later, the blood knot is a pain to do on the fly astream. I see the same weak link in my fishing. Knots of any sort don’t fail often, but chessy double surgeon knots are my dominant culprits.                              Tom Littleton

Response:

Steve Z. writes: The improved loop pretty much doubles the amount of time it takes me to tie the clinch knot (and recent events have convinced me to keep that time to a minimum , so I’d *love* to believe that it doesn’t help. But it sure seems to in my case. Of course, there might be other explanations for my hook-loss reduction–better casting means a healthier tippet, perhaps I "play" the fish better now, maybe the fact that I only catch small fish means no break-offs <g, etc etc.

I hafta go along with Forty on this one.  I tie a clinch knot using a tool — at least 5 turns, sometimes 6 — and I seldom have a failure.  When I do have a failure it is with a knot that I tied quickly and didn’t test by pulling hard on it.  Always use spit to reduce the friction. Dave, back from another wonderful trip to Maine watching my grandsons  catch big brookies…..

Response:

… More than once in the last couple of weeks when I’ve gotten a snag and ended up having to break the line, the knot that has given out first has been the *leader perfection loop* of all things!

That IS weird. The weakest link for me is invariably the double surgeons between leader and tippet. It is possible to attach tippet with a blood/barrel knot astream, I saw a guide do just that with an elaborate sequence of hand over hand maneuvers and a deft twist of the wrist. If I could master that technique my leader to tippet connection would be quite a bit stronger, but what the hell, if you’re snagged the line has to break somewhere. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken Fortenberry wrote… …does that mean you’re tying an improved clinch ? I used to use the improved clinch but read somewhere that unless you tie it exactly perfect it’s actually LESS strong than a regular clinch. Since then I’ve been using the regular clinch, with exactly 5 turns, and it’s worked out well.

Hmmm. Looks like I’ll have to do some impirical testing because that doesn’t jive with my experience. I used to lose lots of flies, right at the knot. When I brought the issue to ROFF I was told three things: (1) use exactly 5 turns (2) make sure to add the "improved loop" to the knot, and (3) lick the knot before tightening. I was nearly always using 5 turns anyway, but when I added that improved loop, my hook losses all but dissappeared. Sometimes I lick the knot and sometimes I don’t–that doesn’t seem to make an appreciable difference as long as I tighten slowly. The improved loop pretty much doubles the amount of time it takes me to tie the clinch knot (and recent events have convinced me to keep that time to a minimum , so I’d *love* to believe that it doesn’t help. But it sure seems to in my case. Of course, there might be other explanations for my hook-loss reduction–better casting means a healthier tippet, perhaps I "play" the fish better now, maybe the fact that I only catch small fish means no break-offs <g, etc etc. More than once in the last couple of weeks when I’ve gotten a snag and ended up having to break the line, the knot that has given out first has been the *leader perfection loop* of all things! Now I just tie a clincher there instead–and believe me when I tell you that it absolutely, positively does not hinge as I was lead to believe. –Steve

Response:

I went up to Waterville with Ed the other night.

Nice report, Dave. Thanks for writing it up. … I sat fumbling with a small caddis fly, unable to "stuff the loop" and finish the knot (I fear my vision is starting to show it’s age), …

No use fighting the approach of geezerhood, you’re just moments away from Metamucil cocktails and liver spots. As far as "stuff the loop", does that mean you’re tying an improved clinch ? I used to use the improved clinch but read somewhere that unless you tie it exactly perfect it’s actually LESS strong than a regular clinch. Since then I’ve been using the regular clinch, with exactly 5 turns, and it’s worked out well. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I went up to Waterville with Ed the other night. When we arrived there were stripers showing on the bar occasionally, some small bass and/or alewives popping here and there and a nice strong caddis hatch in progress. I chose my "new" bamboo, a nice ebay special, a circa 1952 Shakespeare 1305T bamboo. This particular rod came to me a couple of weeks ago and I instantly loved the feel of it. It had the feel that I always expected in a bamboo but never found on the yard sale specials I had come across. It’s 8 1/2′, has a nifty spring loaded unlocking reel seat and throws a DT5 floater and a 6WF sinker pretty nicely. I had only caught one small brookie on it so I didn’t feel the rod had been truly stress tested yet. Ed and I spent some time working some smaller risers on the left shore while we waited for dark. As dark came in we drifted down and over a bit and got in a good spot by a few risers. As fate would have it after a couple of risers had drifted past us I popped my fly off on a poor backcast. Ed was changing flies and it was getting fairly dark out. I sat fumbling with a small caddis fly, unable to "stuff the loop" and finish the knot (I fear my vision is starting to show it’s age), watching a fish rise close to the boat. Ed was in the back having similar problems aggravated by an uncooperative flashlight. I finally got the caddis on and started casting over the fish. Several casts and he moved a bit further out. I couldn’t see my fly on the water, I caught a glimpse of a rise, setup and hooked the fish. He ran a bit upstream, didn’t feel very large and suddenly drove hard upstream and deep. My rod got quite a bend going and I worked hard to get him on the reel. Once on the reel I got him in close by the boat and caught a flash of what looked like a good sized back when he decided to run again. I let the drag work him and he ran any number of times. Finally Ed got the net up and I began to try to pull the fish into the net. My poor little bamboo was bent and stress tested for certain. We netted the fish, took a quick measure (22") and a couple of pics then I put him back in the river and waited for the fish to revive. When the fish was ready he swam off. We guessed the fish was between 4-5lbs, very fat and heavy. In that current, I would be hard pressed to boat a fish that was much larger with that bamboo. I still love the feel of it. We fished until fairly late, working some large stuff over stripers feeding on the bar but didn’t catch another thing. The stripers seem to be loners, just cruising here and there, occasionally raising hell with something or other. Flyfish — dave’s homepage madness http://www.ctel.net/~brooktrout flyfishing in Maine and more

Response:

Question:

Today, I took Ron for his first Jet Boat Ride in the World’s Best Flats Boat ever built. (Not a humble opening, I agree) As we roared down river to the Blue Bridge (the idea was to blow all that dust out of that great Ford Redline Marine Engine into the atmosphere) at about 26 mph (gps perfect) I slowed down to show Ron some Big Horn Sheep and finally shut the engine down that was purring quietly so everything was in mutual agreement.  The river flowed along like quiet glass, a hawk screeched just once, and one of the baby lambs bayed.  Finally, a red winged black bird sang its short song off a willow as some of its limbs traced the surface of the river. I looked at the river, clean and pure and I explained to Ron how I was going to get some smart mouthed remarks about explaining how pollution free this jet boat, called "The Professional Guide Jet Boat" was in water.  He listen to my words thoughtfully while a trickling sound finally ceased. Ron zipped up and turned with a grin.  "Yep.  I know what you mean.  Too bad you and I aren’t as perfect as this boat." I roared in laughter, started the motor, and slowly applied power. ; ) god!  I love this place. — Mr. G. "Gink Keeps It Up" http://www.gink.com

Question:

Did you ever see the Walker’s Cay Chronicles, where Flip Pallot and Lefty Kreh were down in that area fly fishing for False Albicore? – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

Response:

Did you ever see the Walker’s Cay Chronicles, where Flip Pallot and Lefty Kreh were down in that area fly fishing for False Albicore? – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

No.  I’d like to see it though.  That has become one hot light tackle fishery.  Since most people don’t like the false albacore, it is also a catch and release fishery, which will certainly help sustain the stocks as the popularity increases. Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

Jeff; Congrabulations!  Hope you fall as much in love with your Scout as I have mine.  False Albacore should be running in your area soon, right? – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

Response:

Jeff; Congrabulations!  Hope you fall as much in love with your Scout as I have mine.  False Albacore should be running in your area soon, right? – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

Yes.  It usually happens in April.  Worry not, I will be catching them! Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

   Congrats Jeff !!!!   Have fun Mike G.

Response:

just womdering what you paid? and do the scouts come in center consoles and what is there cost if you dont mind thanks rob

With 150 HP Yamaha and a $2000 single axle trailer for this new 19′ boat, my guess would be $25,000. — Skipper

Response:

just womdering what you paid? and do the scouts come in center consoles and what is there cost if you dont mind thanks rob

Response:

just womdering what you paid? and do the scouts come in center consoles and what is there cost if you dont mind thanks rob

I paid a fair price to the dealer in my area that was most helpful. Amazingly, I was able to negotiate a deal without knowing dealer invoice, blue book value, and wholesale cost.  If you are serious about prices, I suggest calling some dealers in your area for some quotes.  Tell me what they are quoting, and I will give you my opinion on that price.   Scout makes boats up to 20′ in center console, dual console, side console, and flats style.  They are at www.scoutboats.com. Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

just womdering what you paid? and do the scouts come in center consoles and what is there cost if you dont mind thanks rob With 150 HP Yamaha and a $2000 single axle trailer for this new 19′ boat, my guess would be $25,000. — Skipper

Good guess, Skipper.  I got a dual axle trailer, and the boat is closer to 20′ than 19′ (19′ 10" LOA). Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

Got the call from the dealer today.  My new Scout 202 SF is in!  I’m going to go down on Saturday and lay out where I want the electronics mounted.  It will be ready for the water next week, and I anticipate picking it up on the 13th!   Now I just need the fish to start their trip to the NC coast… Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

Got the call from the dealer today.  My new Scout 202 SF is in!  I’m going to go down on Saturday and lay out where I want the electronics mounted.  It will be ready for the water next week, and I anticipate picking it up on the 13th!   Now I just need the fish to start their trip to the NC coast… Jeff

Congrats indeed, Jeff!  It always seems that the first year or two, when you’re busy turning the boat into what you want it to be, are the most enjoyable.  We just switched and there’s all the usual redoing to change the obviously stupid decisions the manufacturer and previous owners made to the One True Path of Righteousness (and humility???) Enjoy!

Response:

Question:

Couple that with the fact that even the cheap graphite rods are dream tackle compared with what I used to use when I started, and there is no more argument for an expensive rod.

I’ve noticed that about many sports.  The people who’ve done it the longest don’t feel they need the fancy gear. At the rate of technological advance experienced in recent years a "great"(expensive) rod (or anything else for that matter) of 10 years ago is probably comparable to a decent model today. With some notable exceptions.   55 T-bird 58-61 Vette 67 – 69 Camaero 69-71 Chevelle 71 455 Vette 455 Olds Oh, but those are all pre oil crisis cars. Never mind…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Couple that with the fact that even the cheap graphite rods are dream tackle compared with what I used to use when I started, and there is no more argument for an expensive rod. I’ve noticed that about many sports.  The people who’ve done it the longest don’t feel they need the fancy gear. At the rate of technological advance experienced in recent years a "great"(expensive) rod (or anything else for that matter) of 10 years ago is probably comparable to a decent model today. With some notable exceptions. 55 T-bird 58-61 Vette 67 – 69 Camaero 69-71 Chevelle 71 455 Vette 455 Olds

Don’t forget the 401c" Jeep Wagoneer-quadratrack, all wheel lock in the glove box, a few twiddles and tweeks and you have an over 500hp leviathon. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, but those are all pre oil crisis cars. Never mind…

Response:

Hello all from a longtime lurker. I agree with the cheapest rod to get the job done.  Here is my wonderful challenge: My wife has really taken to flyfishing and wants a rod and reel of her own instead of borrowing from others.  I completely understand.  We want to spend time hiking and fishing, so I am looking for a 8-9′ 4-6wt. 4 pc. rod for western ID and WA fishing.  I am currently using the Cabela’s willow creek combo.  I really like it and it is still available for $90.  Should I get this, or is there another cheaper rod I can get for us? Thanks and considering myself blessed! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     It’s like my 3wt if you remember ,the pretty little one with the wood insert except it is a graphite reel seat. It’s a Cabela’s special from flyer code #85-1001 stock#85-31-3111 it’s the rod from the youth combo-try it with that 3wt reel and line you use and see if it won’t do a passable job. If not, extra spool and line for 5wt for those big brookies you keep penned in back of your store. In JUNE !                                                          John Popp

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all from a longtime lurker. I agree with the cheapest rod to get the job done.  Here is my wonderful challenge: My wife has really taken to flyfishing and wants a rod and reel of her own instead of borrowing from others.  I completely understand.  We want to spend time hiking and fishing, so I am looking for a 8-9′ 4-6wt. 4 pc. rod for western ID and WA fishing.  I am currently using the Cabela’s willow creek combo.  I really like it and it is still available for $90.  Should I get this, or is there another cheaper rod I can get for us? Thanks and considering myself blessed!     It’s like my 3wt if you remember ,the pretty little one with the wood insert except it is a graphite reel seat. It’s a Cabela’s special from flyer code #85-1001 stock#85-31-3111 it’s the rod from the youth combo-try it with that 3wt reel and line you use and see if it won’t do a passable job. If not, extra spool and line for 5wt for those big brookies you keep penned in back of your store. In JUNE !                                                          John Popp

    My recommendation is the youth(see above) matched with the winchester reel(now on sale at $35.00) or one of the combos in the Cabela’s fly fishing catalog. I’m not in any way connected with them but I find the best deals there for the beginner. By the way mine arrived in a plastic rod case with sock. The case sells for 9.95 so the rod (priced at 29.95) actually cost $20 bucks. The case is big enough that I have the 5wt youth, 3wt three forks, and 7wt 11′ 3 piece Abu Garcia with sox all stored in it. The case fits nicely in the truck even with tool box.                                                           John Popp                                                         in Sanford Fl.

Response:

One great choice is the Cortland Fairplay, available at WalMart for $39.95.    I bought one for my girlfriends boys, and it is great!  It is a bit soft, but practically casts itself.   I taught a buddy to cast with it, and he would rather use it than one of my better (faster) rods. Bob Scott

Response:

Walt, that has been my opinion for some time.  When I go down I want a rod and reel I can toss to one side and worry about what happens to me, not some expensive equipment. — Ernie Harrison

It may sell for $300 or Less and this BastardBamboo may be cheap to buy, but it will stand up to anything ever made in America.  Sorry Ernie.  You’re going to have t drown and for cheap stuff at that. George

Question:

I will be making my first trip to the boundry waters in early June and would appreciate any recos regarding what would be the most appropriate footwear (boots) for use during the day. I have many choices for while at camp, but, I’m uncertain as to what would be best for during the course of the day where we will be in and out of the canoe portaging. Thanks! Galen

Response:

I have worn L.L.Bean "Bean Boots " for years and can’t say that I have seen anything better. These boots have leather uppers and rubber bottoms and are about as watertight as a ducks butt.  The basic requirements "as I see em" are: 1. Boots need to provide good ankle support, portages are sometimes "a bit on the rugged side " and two or three days from civilization with a canoe & pack to carry is no place for an ankle sprain. 2. Boots need to be reasonably water resistant. You will we wading and slogging thru mud in many places. 3. Boots need to be reasonably light and comfortable. Do not try to break in a new pair of boots on the trip, it’s no place for blisters on the feet either. Enjoy your trip to the BWCAW and E-Mail your Federal  legislators today and encourage them to defeat the Oberstar bill(see postings this newsgroup) that would reduce the wilderness protection status of the BWCAW.

Response:

I gave up several years ago trying to keep my feet dry in the BWCA.  I bring a pair of good boots for canoeing and portaging, and a light pair of tennis shoes for camp fishing etc.  My boots are always wet after a couple portages. Scott

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I will be making my first trip to the boundry waters in early June and would appreciate any recos regarding what would be the most appropriate footwear (boots) for use during the day. I have many choices for while at camp, but, I’m uncertain as to what would be best for during the course of the day where we will be in and out of the canoe portaging. Thanks! Galen

I posted this question in rec.boats.paddle two years ago.  I got a wide range of responses, with the majority of respondents suggested hiking boots for the portages.  We did that, and we were glad we did.  A few attempts at doing the short carries in the Tevas that we wore in the canoe led to near-disasters. SInce then, some folk have reported that waterproof L.L. Bean boots served well on the trail and on the water, but I haven’t tried that.  The idea of wearing waterproof boots in a canoe doesn’t appeal to me.  It would detract from the wonerfully relaxed feeling of being on the water. Which part of the BWCA are you entering at? Charlie —                       Charles Shopsis, Dept. Chemistry                   Adelphi University, Garden City NY 11530

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I found that Teva sandals worked great when I went on my first BWCA trip last year. They are light weight, dry quickly and provide great traction when wet. Depending on the time of year and degree of difficulty of your anticipated portages you may want to consider sandals in place of boots. Chuck

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I wear nylon hip waders (snug) and my fly fishing wading boots. I can go out pretty deep, and wear whatever I want under the waders.  I stay dry.  The waders are snug and since BWCA/Quetico has very little current to deal with, I don’t think there are any big saftey concerns. My buddies all had high rubber boots, and had some trouble getting them dried out after accidnetally stepping in too deep.  They said their boots were clamy. P.

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There are many different recommendations for footware in the BWCA.   Partially it depends on where and when your trip will be. Some people just wear sneakers, others rubber boots. Frequently recommended by the experts is LL Bean’s "Maine Hunting Shoe" (rubber lower, leather upper). Myself, I’ve worn everything from cheap nylon hiking boots to Teva sandals and the Bean boots. For easy portages, the sandals are good from late July on.  But earlier than that the bugs will feast on your ankles! Something with ankle support is recommended for most portaging, especially with heavier loads or over the rougher portages. You definitely want something that will not come off in muck.  Its not unusual to have to slog through 6 inches of muck (and I’ve heard reports of people up to the waist in the muck on Yum-Yum portage!)  You don’t want to loose your shoe in a foot or two of muck when you’ve got a canoe on your shoulders! Ken — WinQwk 2.0 a#0

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I led trips in the BWCA for years and I never strayed from my K-Mart "Texas Steer" boots.  They cost like $20 and were just perfect.  Other people I know bought expensive Red Wing boots, logger boots, or gore-text quasi-hiking boots but they always fell apart. My cheap K-mart boots did the trick.  Save your money!

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Some other boots that you might look at are army combat boots.  They are lightweight and don’t cost much either. Matt Johnston Look me up on the Internet. http://www.vt.edu:10021/M/majohnst

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I will be making my first trip to the boundry waters in early June and would appreciate any recos regarding what would be the most appropriate footwear (boots) for use during the day. I have many choices for while at camp, but, I’m uncertain as to what would be best for during the course of the day where we will be in and out of the canoe portaging. Thanks! Galen

I too have spent a lot of time trying to get foot wear in the BWCAW right. What I hit upon was why fight the fact that you are going to get wet.  I use the military jungle boot and depending on the temp either wool socks or neoprene booties. Instead of trying to stay dry I expect to get wet and plan for it. It turns out that this is three season foot wear. Later, Garry

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This may already have been said, but I’ve found that boots are pretty useless while canoing and portaging in BWCAW.  You will end up having to step out of the canoe in water higher than the boot at some point (unless it’s hip waders), and I’ve tromped through sucking mud well up my shins on more than one portage.  What most of the outfitters recommend is Tevas (or the like) or aqua socks while canoing/portaging, and some dry shoes for camp.  I go ahead and bear the weight of hauling my Goretex boots in a pack – it *will* rain, and dry feet in camp can be such a comfort! Enjoy your trip to the BWCAW and E-Mail your Federal  legislators today and encourage them to defeat the Oberstar bill(see postings this newsgroup) that would reduce the wilderness protection status of the BWCAW.

Please! Jerry Houston, TX Howard Lake, MN

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Hi Mike With out a doubt you should fish Oatka Creek just south of Rochester. I have had extremely good times on that creek. A shop called Carl Coleman Sporting Goods in Spencerport, just west of Rochester has various maps of the areas streams and creeks that are fishable. Carls shop is a somewhat good one. Say Hi to him from me. He can set you up with the correct flies and any other equipment. He has about 5 bamboo rods that I am trying to get off of him but he is always fishing when I call.   No more than a 5 wgt is needed on the majority of the inland creeks and lakes. If you are going for some Steelheads then you will need a 6-9 wgt rod. I use a 2 wgt rod on Oatka and have a ball using it.   The Genesee River is not doing real well for the past 3 years or so. Catch you later Mike & Marie

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Mike: Oatka Creek (West of Rochester) is great in early May. The Henrickson hatch can be fantastic. Another place to try in the Rochester area is Spring Creek in Mumford (it empties into the Oatka). Also, Irondequoit Creek is on the other side of Rochester (East Side). Carl Coleman’s Fly Shop is located on the west side of town on 4786 W. Ridge Road. His phone number is 716-352-4775. Hope this helps. Bob Elliott

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I will be going home for the first time in a long time to Rochester.  I would like to fly fish streams, lakes and or ponds in the area. Potentially in the Finger Lakes area as well.  Any suggestions as tackle, location etc. would be of great help.  Thanks. Tight Lines, Michael Barnes

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Question:

Does anyone know?

(if the fishing is good) D.P.  

I have not been to Bright Angel campground in about 10 years, and when I was there, did not fish, but… There were tremendous numbers of large trout to be seen!  Anyone with a rod down there did very well.  One co-worker said it was kind of a pain, you caught a trout on every cast, no matter what you did! Ron

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I have fished Bright Angel Creek, working my way up from the campground a mile or so. I caught a 14" brookie and a 17" rainbow in about a half hour. One was on a Gold-ribbed Hare’s Ear and the other was on a  weighted "Ted Fay" Yellow jacket pattern. Look for places where the current sweeps under the rocks.  Cast well upstream so the fly can sink and be swept down under. Few people flyfish – most use lures or Salmon egges.  You will out fish them I guarantee. Big fish can be seen jumping in the main river but every time I’ve been there the clarity was so limited I stayed in the clear creek. Good luck! May the wild fish live to spawn, and may the brood of their progeny break the tippets of our grandchildren!

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   Hey, go and take your gear. Different times of the year will bring different conditions. During Aug and Sept when the canyon gets it’s heaviest rain fall, it might not be too great but any other time you might get a wonderful surprise!    We fished from the put in at Lee’s Ferry for about five days downstream before the river got too murky, from storms, to do any good. The main river will produce two to ten pound trout which I have seen! We ate a few.    Very few of the rafters fish, or even carry the gear to fish. This is due to limited space, especially for something as long and fragile as a flyrod. Or fear of loss due to flipping.      I have not hear that bio-degradeable soaps had any effect on the fishery of anystream any kind of usage such as the Colorado. The fish are voracious and will hit just about anything you put   good luck! and great hike!!                 -t                                     =8^)

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Hey, go and take your gear. Different times of the year will bring different conditions. During Aug and Sept when the canyon gets it’s heaviest rain fall, it might not be too great but any other time you might get a wonderful surprise!

Thanks, for the tip, hopefully I’ll have some fish stories to tell when I return. D.P.

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You might as well enjoy the trip, because the AZ dept of Game and Fish is being pressured to remove all bag limits on trout in the Canyon, possibly starting next year.  There and elsewhere in the state, trout (except Apache and Gila) are being treated by the federal courts as the enemy of native species, even though most of the ecosystems in which trout have taken home — the Canyon is an obvious example — have been permanently transformed from what they were when squawfish and humpbacks ruled the waves.  For the next few years, the trout fishery at Lees Ferry will be unaffected by the squawfish regulations, and AzGF thinks it might even improve if the releases through Glen Canyon Dam are a couple degress warmer.  On the other hand, the Bureau of Reclamation is talking about blasting a 50,000 (yeah, 5 K) cfs release through Glen Canyon Dam in March or April 1995, just to see what it will do for beaches, etc in the Grand Canyon.  Whatever it does to those beaches, it will blast the hell out of the barely restored fishery at the Ferry. -bruce pencek

: Hey, go and take your gear. Different times of the year will : bring different conditions. During Aug and Sept when the canyon : gets it’s heaviest rain fall, it might not be too great but : any other time you might get a wonderful surprise! : Thanks, for the tip, hopefully I’ll have some fish stories to tell when I : return. — Political Science, Box 455029    ~  as eternal salvation — come by grace and University of Nevada, Las Vegas  ~   grace comes by art and art does not come Las Vegas, NV  89154-5029        ~   easy."                 — Norman Maclean

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Pencek) writes: On the other hand, the Bureau of Reclamation is talking about blasting a 50,000 (yeah, 5 K) cfs release through Glen Canyon Dam in March or April 1995, just to see what it will do for beaches, etc in the Grand Canyon.  Whatever it does to those beaches, it will blast the hell out of the barely restored fishery at the Ferry.

Ah, the glory of government, it certainly is dumbfounding how these thought processes come about, and we pay for them. D.P.

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Does anyone know? I’m planning a hiking/camping  tripfor a two night stay at the bottom of the Grand Canyon in October and was wondering if it would be worth while to carry the weight of the fly fishing gear.  I would be at Bright Angel Creek and the Colorado River.  Is the fishing there any good, or have all the fish been killed or spooked by all the rafters.  I’ve also heard that the high concentration of bio-degradable soap from all the campers has done a number on the fish, is this true? If the fishing is worthwhile what sort of line/leader/flies should I bring?   And advice would be appreciated. Thank You D.P.  

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