Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My most productive winter fly is a Purple Egg Sucking Leech (basically a purple wooley bugger with two turns of chartreuse, flame orange, or bright pink chenille at the head) on a size 4 or 6 hook. The second most productive is one I  call a Clown fly – basically a take-off of a Clown  colored Corkie – a fat body that is one half chartreuse chenille and half  flame orange chenille, with an oversized (2x normal +)white webby saddle hackle on a size 4 -8  standard steelhead bait hook (Gamakatsu or similar). I tie the PESL either weighted or unweighted – use the unweighted in large pools where I can effectively use a fast sink tip and get a good swing (short leader ~ 3′).  On other water I use a floating line, 9-12′ leader, & heavily weighted  PESL with the clown fly dropped off the bend about 18-24". When the water is low and clear and the fish tend to be skittish, a small (12-16) nymph (GRHE, PT, Copper John, etc.) on a 24" dropper from the weighted fly can be very effective. When you really need to get down, a very effective fly here (but one I really hate to use – pure chuck & duck) is the lead-eyed leech – a maribou leech in any of the standard colors with large lead (or tungsten) dumbell eyes.

That’s interesting to find your fly list both short and conventional – sometimes I think I try too hard.  My most productive fly this past season and a half was a purple and black marabou spey with a large, purple Krystal Flash wing and a large neon red head – very close to your PESL.  Last year I did OK dead drifting a black ESL under an indicator, but didn’t get a tap when I swung it. When I need to get really down, I try to avoid the lead eyes, preferring heavy duty sinking heads. I hate to fish deep for steelhead; much prefering to catch them on or near the top. So I pay alot of attention to water temperature.  I have found that if the water temp is above 41deg.F, I can be reasonably successful fishing with a floating line, standard unweighted steelhead patterns ( Skunk, GBS, Purple Peril, etc.) and using either wet fly swing or greased line presentations.  In fact, if the water temp is over 44deg. F, I can have reasonable success fishing riffling patterns ( Bomber, Moose Turd, Waller Walker, etc.) on the surface.  There is no denying though, that much below 45deg F water, you will usually be more successful  going deep rather than fishing on or near the surface for steelhead.  I’ve reached a point though that I’d rather catch fewer fish using methods I really enjoy than employ methods that I find to be not nearly as much fun. Bob Weinberger

Ya, that’s my curse too, persisting with what I like rather than what is needed to catch fish.  Frankly, I think of late I’ve been running too deep, snagging bottom constantly, then switching off to a lighter rig and zooming it over their heads.  This back ‘n forth comes from constantly trying new water of uncertain depth rather than plugging away at the same old, same old and getting to know the depths and features very well.  It certainly reduces my catch rate but perversely, I find it more interesting. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Out this morning, one tap only.  It felt like the fish was nipping at the tail of the fly (rather long) and later when I got a call from a local steelheader, he mentioned that he moves to shorter flies as the fish don’t hit as aggressively when the temps drop. Since we have a few PNW steelheaders here, I’m wondering what they like to use as a winter fly.  The local float rodders tend to use a roe sack that makes the eggs look milky white and chartreuse so I’ve just finished a marabou spey fly that is white over chartreuse – should have the desired appearance.  The local shop owner likes purple, purple and black, or red and black as well. Also curious if you’ve noticed winter steelhead being willing to raise up a foot or so to snare a fly?   I spent too much time on the river bottom beautification program this morning as my tip was too heavy for the slower water, yet when I’m not hitting bottom, I’m second guessing myself about the fly being where the fish are.  The hit btw, was in the middle of a fast, heavy riffle and judging by the tap, tap, tap, the fish was chasing and nipping. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Snip Since we have a few PNW steelheaders here, I’m wondering what they like to use as a winter fly.

Snip My most productive winter fly is a Purple Egg Sucking Leech (basically a purple wooley bugger with two turns of chartreuse, flame orange, or bright pink chenille at the head) on a size 4 or 6 hook. The second most productive is one I  call a Clown fly – basically a take-off of a Clown  colored Corkie – a fat body that is one half chartreuse chenille and half  flame orange chenille, with an oversized (2x normal +)white webby saddle hackle on a size 4 -8  standard steelhead bait hook (Gamakatsu or similar). I tie the PESL either weighted or unweighted – use the unweighted in large pools where I can effectively use a fast sink tip and get a good swing (short leader ~ 3′).  On other water I use a floating line, 9-12′ leader, & heavily weighted  PESL with the clown fly dropped off the bend about 18-24". When the water is low and clear and the fish tend to be skittish, a small (12-16) nymph (GRHE, PT, Copper John, etc.) on a 24" dropper from the weighted fly can be very effective. When you really need to get down, a very effective fly here (but one I really hate to use – pure chuck & duck) is the lead-eyed leech – a maribou leech in any of the standard colors with large lead (or tungsten) dumbell eyes. Snip Also curious if you’ve noticed winter steelhead being willing to raise up a foot or so to snare a fly?

Snip I hate to fish deep for steelhead; much prefering to catch them on or near the top. So I pay alot of attention to water temperature.  I have found that if the water temp is above 41deg.F, I can be reasonably successful fishing with a floating line, standard unweighted steelhead patterns ( Skunk, GBS, Purple Peril, etc.) and using either wet fly swing or greased line presentations.  In fact, if the water temp is over 44deg. F, I can have reasonable success fishing riffling patterns ( Bomber, Moose Turd, Waller Walker, etc.) on the surface.  There is no denying though, that much below 45deg F water, you will usually be more successful  going deep rather than fishing on or near the surface for steelhead.  I’ve reached a point though that I’d rather catch fewer fish using methods I really enjoy than employ methods that I find to be not nearly as much fun. Bob Weinberger – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter

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Question:

/daytripper (Cripes, I’d have to Google "PHP" just to find out if that’s some kind of pig tranquilizer or software!

Freakin’ chiphead. Got time to check out the Nissitisset Friday AM?  I have to be in Andover at 2ish and was going to try to be on the river from say 7-12 or so…

Response:

/daytripper (Cripes, I’d have to Google "PHP" just to find out if that’s some kind of pig tranquilizer or software! Freakin’ chiphead.

Been called a lot worse Got time to check out the Nissitisset Friday AM?  I have to be in Andover at 2ish and was going to try to be on the river from say 7-12 or so…

Ya know, there’s actually a possibility I could do that, and maybe drag Paul along as well. Stay in touch during the week and we’ll see how things develop. I’ll give Paul a ring and let him know what’s up. Forecast is for overcast and cool 50’s. Sounds good! /daytripper (NH season ends this weekend. Without me. Rats!)

Response:

Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at:

http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data.

Sounds like a job for PHP dude.  Just loop through the records parsing off the flow and keep the last one you see before hitting EOF. –Stan (always up for brute force solutions)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data. Please advise and thanks for your time.

Tony, I haven’t seen a way to get just the one record that you request.   However, if your able to parse the data in the format suggested by Daytripper, you should be able to quickly parse all 96 records and find the most recent entry.  I don’t know what PHP has to offer, but you could sort the data based upon the time and read the one entry.  You could also try reading the first record at the end of the file. the info you desire.  They are pretty good guys to work with, or at least they used to be.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data. Please advise and thanks for your time. Tony, I haven’t seen a way to get just the one record that you request. However, if your able to parse the data in the format suggested by Daytripper, you should be able to quickly parse all 96 records and find the most recent entry.  I don’t know what PHP has to offer, but you could sort the data based upon the time and read the one entry.  You could also try reading the first record at the end of the file. the info you desire.  They are pretty good guys to work with, or at least they used to be.

Goddamnit!  Hey Wayno!  What the hell are these guys doing?  Are they calling us bad names or what?    :( Wolfgang boy……they just better not be!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data. Please advise and thanks for your time. Tony Ritter

Whew! It’s unnerving to see my handle as the subject. And tagged with an exclamation point, no less! (First reaction: "Oh shit! WTF did I say this time?" You’ll do better to use Stan and "Bouncer" to get you through parsing web data.  I’m a hardware guy with just enough software and networks knowledge to be a pita to sysops everywhere… /daytripper (Cripes, I’d have to Google "PHP" just to find out if that’s some kind of pig tranquilizer or software!

Response:

Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data. Please advise and thanks for your time. Tony Ritter

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post. I sent another message earlier this morning and an email already!  Here is the link one more time. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/sw Rock, Thanks for the reply. I went to the URL that you mentioned and I’m still baffled. For example, here is a station I would like: 01427510 If I go the USGS website and query this station, I get the whole page (html – graphics) along with other information which I do not need. All I need is the following data string… 01427510  DELAWARE RIVER AT CALLICOON NY   10/07 17:30  3.14  1,210 1,285  –  17.2 Would I have to use a PHP regexp function to match the pattern I’m looking for in the string to weed out the extraneous information on that page or is there a straight CSV file from the USGS for this station? Please advise. Thank you. Tony Ritter You can get a tab-delimited data file by clicking in the right places, perfect for importing into Excel (for instance). It has a bit of header cruft but there’s enough formatting to be easily filtered to extract the data and ignore the cruft… An abbreviated example, taken from a smallish Maine river that I’m familiar with (the actual file had a month worth of data taken every 15 minutes): # The data you have obtained from this automated # U.S. Geological Survey database have not received # Director’s approval and as such are provisional # and subject to revision.  The data are released # on the condition that neither the USGS nor the # United States Government may be held liable for # any damages resulting from its use. # # Additional information can be obtained from the USGS at #   http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nh/nwis/help/?provisional # # # This file consists of tab-separated columns of data # The columns include the following fields # # column        column definition # agency_cd     Agency collection or maintaining the site # site_no       USGS site identification number # datetime      date and time in ISO format (YYYY-mm-dd HH:MM:SS) # # The remaining fields vary for each site.  The field names # uniquely define sensor (the ‘data descriptor’) and  the # used to collect the data used to collect the data # and the 5 number sequence is the ‘parameter_cd’ # that defines the type of data shown in the column. # # # Data for the following stations is contained in this file #  USGS 01052500 Diamond River near Wentworth Location, NH # # # # # # List of available data for this site.  Lines preceeded by # an asterix ‘*’ are included in the data file. # #  DD parameter – Description # *01   00060   – DISCHARGE, CUBIC FEET PER SECOND #  03   00065   – GAGE HEIGHT, FEET # agency_cd       site_no datetime        01_00060 /daytripper

Response:

RockTrout: Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post. Thank you. Tony Ritter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 10:59 PM Does anybody know if there is a source where I can get a csv – or comma separated file – from the USGS for particular stations on rivers in New York State. I don’t want to open a js pop up window of that particular USGS station but want to open their URL or FTP and use PHP to parse the data string into an array for output. Use this link and work your way to the appropriate stations.  You can obtain historical data in this fashion.

Response:

Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post.

I sent another message earlier this morning and an email already!  Here is the link one more time. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/sw

Response:

Rock, Thanks for the reply. I went to the URL that you mentioned and I’m still baffled. For example, here is a station I would like: 01427510 If I go the USGS website and query this station, I get the whole page (html – graphics) along with other information which I do not need. All I need is the following data string… 01427510  DELAWARE RIVER AT CALLICOON NY   10/07 17:30  3.14  1,210 1,285  –  17.2 Would I have to use a PHP regexp function to match the pattern I’m looking for in the string to weed out the extraneous information on that page or is there a straight CSV file from the USGS for this station? Please advise. Thank you. Tony Ritter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post. I sent another message earlier this morning and an email already!  Here is the link one more time. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/sw

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post. I sent another message earlier this morning and an email already!  Here is the link one more time. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/sw Rock, Thanks for the reply. I went to the URL that you mentioned and I’m still baffled. For example, here is a station I would like: 01427510 If I go the USGS website and query this station, I get the whole page (html – graphics) along with other information which I do not need. All I need is the following data string… 01427510  DELAWARE RIVER AT CALLICOON NY   10/07 17:30  3.14  1,210 1,285  –  17.2 Would I have to use a PHP regexp function to match the pattern I’m looking for in the string to weed out the extraneous information on that page or is there a straight CSV file from the USGS for this station? Please advise. Thank you. Tony Ritter

You can get a tab-delimited data file by clicking in the right places, perfect for importing into Excel (for instance). It has a bit of header cruft but there’s enough formatting to be easily filtered to extract the data and ignore the cruft… An abbreviated example, taken from a smallish Maine river that I’m familiar with (the actual file had a month worth of data taken every 15 minutes): # The data you have obtained from this automated # U.S. Geological Survey database have not received # Director’s approval and as such are provisional # and subject to revision.  The data are released # on the condition that neither the USGS nor the # United States Government may be held liable for # any damages resulting from its use. # # Additional information can be obtained from the USGS at #   http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nh/nwis/help/?provisional # # # This file consists of tab-separated columns of data # The columns include the following fields # # column        column definition # agency_cd     Agency collection or maintaining the site # site_no       USGS site identification number # datetime      date and time in ISO format (YYYY-mm-dd HH:MM:SS) # # The remaining fields vary for each site.  The field names # uniquely define sensor (the ‘data descriptor’) and  the # used to collect the data used to collect the data # and the 5 number sequence is the ‘parameter_cd’ # that defines the type of data shown in the column. # # # Data for the following stations is contained in this file #  USGS 01052500 Diamond River near Wentworth Location, NH # # # # # # List of available data for this site.  Lines preceeded by # an asterix ‘*’ are included in the data file. # #  DD parameter – Description # *01   00060   – DISCHARGE, CUBIC FEET PER SECOND #  03   00065   – GAGE HEIGHT, FEET # agency_cd       site_no datetime        01_00060 /daytripper

Response:

Question:

I believe their was a case a couple of years ago concerning an Angel Flight. One of their aircraft had broken down while on a mission in a remote area. One of the other Angel Flight volunteer pilots flew a mechanic in his own aircraft to repair the downed aircraft. The FAA gave this pilot a violation for flying a "commercial" flight without the proper ratings. Their reasoning was since the Mechanic was being paid to repair the other aircraft that made it a commercial flight operation by definition and that it did not fall under the Angel Flight exclusion even though the pilot received no compensation and donated his time and aircraft expenses. Apparently a charter service at their home field had complained to the FAA because they felt they should have flown and been paid for the repair flight. This situation is similar and would probably end the same way. If the FAA doesn’t have it brought to their attention, they most likely won’t come looking and won’t really care. But, if someone like an airport manager, FBO, or charter service complains that their losing revenue, then the results will usually be in favor of the commercial operation and against the individual. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe that Rick Cremer once said there is no such thing, no such ruling, no record of action against a pilot for such a thing. Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

What is the compensation that he or anyone else is getting? Who hired him? I still don’t understand the problem. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think a reading from the FAR’s might clarify my earlier statement. Sec. 61.113   Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. The (b)(1) is what I referred to, it’s not clear that if you do it for free it’s ok or not.  I know that I have had FSDO people tell me it’s not ok, but then I know they don’t always get it right either.  They told me that the flight time you accumulate while doing this counts as payment, who knows, I certainly don’t! A normal procedure when dealing with regulations is that if it’s not stated as being unlawful then that means it’s lawful.  However, with the FAA you never can tell, they can make their own rules and interpretations up on the fly, so I’d always play safe and not do it. However, it’s your certificate and if you have a beef with the fee’s, then don’t pay them and let the FBO do what they want.  You could always clear it with your local FSDO and see what they say, and as for Angel Flights and commercial license.  It’s like CAP from what I understand, there are wavers in place for this type of operation. Let us know what the FSDO says, and then if the FBO isn’t charging others I’d tell him to go screw himself, assuming FSDO says a private is all you need. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

I still don’t understand what is particularly grey about this. What compensation is he or anyone else getting? And what does "commonality of purpose" have to do with it? Doesn’t the FAA have the burden of proof that a violation occurred? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire.<< It’s not a reg. As in many cases where the FAA takes administrative action the office of the Chief Councel makes a determination of what a reg means and what to do to a pilot. Especially in a grey area. This entire thread comes through here about every year. Searching the Google newsgroup archives has most of it. I have the case law copied somewhere. I just went through a bunch of old data, couldn’t find it but sure did clean out my desk. KG

Response:

Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could

find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire.<< It’s not a reg. As in many cases where the FAA takes administrative action the office of the Chief Councel makes a determination of what a reg means and what to do to a pilot. Especially in a grey area. This entire thread comes through here about every year. Searching the Google newsgroup archives has most of it. I have the case law copied somewhere. I just went through a bunch of old data, couldn’t find it but sure did clean out my desk. KG

Response:

 It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks.

Pussy.  F-350 Triton V-10 pulling a 33ft double slide fifth wheel. Going from San Antonio to Oshkosh this July… Russell Kent

Response:

Anyone really care?  You are doing your friend a favor and if you feel like it is worth it, ask him to chip in by paying the landing fee. The Feds aren’t going to be there looking over your should just waiting to catch you allowing someone else to pay your landing fee. You know most won’t even care. If you were recieving compensation for doing this that would be one thing but you’re not. Even then they would have to catch you. Let him pay the landing fee. If the Feds want to take away your license for something they will, period. There won’t be any stopping them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

My 250 and your 350 have the same frame, of course the engines are the same also.  You just have more lug nuts to take off when you get a flat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks. Pussy.  F-350 Triton V-10 pulling a 33ft double slide fifth wheel. Going from San Antonio to Oshkosh this July… Russell Kent

Response:

I think a reading from the FAR’s might clarify my earlier statement. Sec. 61.113   Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. The (b)(1) is what I referred to, it’s not clear that if you do it for free it’s ok or not.  I know that I have had FSDO people tell me it’s not ok, but then I know they don’t always get it right either.  They told me that the flight time you accumulate while doing this counts as payment, who knows, I certainly don’t! A normal procedure when dealing with regulations is that if it’s not stated as being unlawful then that means it’s lawful.  However, with the FAA you never can tell, they can make their own rules and interpretations up on the fly, so I’d always play safe and not do it. However, it’s your certificate and if you have a beef with the fee’s, then don’t pay them and let the FBO do what they want.  You could always clear it with your local FSDO and see what they say, and as for Angel Flights and commercial license.  It’s like CAP from what I understand, there are wavers in place for this type of operation. Let us know what the FSDO says, and then if the FBO isn’t charging others I’d tell him to go screw himself, assuming FSDO says a private is all you need. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Bullsquat. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend.

What I would ask is this, are you going to this site anyways, in other words, if he wasn’t along for the ride, would you still go? If not, what you’re doing requires a commercial.  That’s why you are getting the landing fee charge.  It’s common around here for a landing fee only on commercial ops, private is usually free in my neck of the woods. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

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I agree with Jim….as I usually do, being a fellow Piper owner…anyway… I find this type of thread always amusing…you can’t do that because it is for ‘hire’ or in this case ‘no commonality of purpose’. With all due respect to Mr. Gruber and everyone else who feels that way…to quote my friend down south…BULLSQUAT! ALL my flights are for ME.  I fly for fun, not profit, I love to go different places.  So, your honor, when Mr. X asked me if I would take him to BFE, I said, sure, having never been there, I looked forward to going and checking it out.  I then decided with or without him, I was gonna explore BFE, and started to make my flight plans.  Just so happens since he was still wanting to go to BFE, and I was wanting to go someplace new, we both had a common purpose for the flight..we BOTH wanted to go to BFE equally….thus, I did not fly him to BFE, he came with me on yet another $100 hamburger run to someplace I had not yet been….BFE…and that your honor is my story….   Its true!  Bottom Line…..have fun and fly safe!!! Garrett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights. Bullsquat. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

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Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved. Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

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Frank, you are going to be beaten bloody by gnats, on this topic… First, you are in a somewhat grey area of the regs… You say you are donating your time and gas and I accept that… Others, who are hostile to you or your friend for whatever reason, will say you are performing a commercial flight operation, air taxi, without the ratings, etc… My position is, that as long as you are not being paid in any fashion other than your own satisfaction, it is your airplane to fly wherever and whenever, ala. Angel Flights, etc… <still a free country… If you choose to arrange your schedule with your friend so he can accomplish his own purposes, that is between you two and it is still a Part 91 flight… I have a friend that I routinely fly with… My plans usually are contingent upon his needs, when we leave, when we come back, etc..  The Professional Hand Wringers (PHW) are all over this board, and the minutae artists among them would try to make the case that if I wait even five minutes for him, it is now magically an air taxi operation and I’m in violation, yadda, yadda, yadda, all over the place… Now the PHW will be all over you, so you, like Caesars wife, have to be above reproach that what you are doing is your own personal satisfaction, that you are not using the trips to  build hours towards a commercial rating, that the friend is not sending you and the wife on a missionary trip to Guatemala <or where ever, etc…  nada, nothing, sparkling clean… Also, the friend better not be hiring an air taxi when you are not available… That would be tough to explain away if the FAA got into it… The toughest part is the airport… Obviously, it is common knowledge that you are flying him in the performance of HIS work… From the airports point of view that constitutes a commercial activity originating at the airport, whether you get paid or not… The analogy here, is an employee of a corporation may fly the corporate plane on company business, without his being a commercial pilot… That does not protect him/them from paying the commercial operations fee when that plane, with the corporate logo all over it, lands and taxi’s in to the fbo… From  my perspective, have the friend pay the fee, since it is his activity that is commercial, not yours, or make an arrangement that you will buy the 20 gallons of gas on some fixed schedule, or otherwise get an agreement with her… <I’m actually against anything other than his paying the fee, because money appearing out of your hand in any fashion makes YOU look like a commercial operation Or find another airport and keep your mouth(s) shut <probably the best solution… I would advise against making a major fight out of it with the airport manager… She has the ultimate weapon of filing a complaint with the FAA that you are running a clandestine air taxi… Not good – not fun – lotsa grief…. Cheers  …  Denny

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

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Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.

Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me.<< That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not. Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight. Karl ATP LR-Jet CE-500 BE-300 15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

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I think you are stretching the interpretation a bit.  If a friend suggests that the fishing is good in MT, and we fly there in my plane, it is not a commercial flight.  To be a commercial flight the person/entity providing the flight must receive something in return. I would agree with your interpretation if they were splitting costs. Mike MU-2   Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.   Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with   it to me.<<   That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.   Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight.   Karl   ATP   LR-Jet   CE-500   BE-300   15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. What I would ask is this, are you going to this site anyways, in other words, if he wasn’t along for the ride, would you still go? If not, what you’re doing requires a commercial.  That’s why you are getting the landing fee charge.  It’s common around here for a landing fee only on commercial ops, private is usually free in my neck of the woods.

Bullsquat. If one could not fly someone for free when there was no commonality of purpose, Angel Flight could not exist. As long as he does not receive any compensation, he should be OK. Given the nature of the radio station (Christian non-profit), Frank may be entitled to deduct his out of pocket costs (or even perhaps the wet local rate for a C150) from his taxes. The ‘landing charge’ seems more like an FBO ramp fee to me. -Greg

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 It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim,    I kinda wondered about you until I saw your signature line… even though I knew you flew a Cherokee. You proved yourself with the Ford F-150 rating though.  Carry on!

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I believe that Rick Cremer once said there is no such thing, no such ruling, no record of action against a pilot for such a thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

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Jim,     I kinda wondered about you until I saw your signature line… even though I knew you flew a Cherokee. You proved yourself with the Ford F-150 rating though.  Carry on! — Joe Schneider Cherokee 8437R Advanced F-150 Supercab rating Numerous other spamcans not worth mentioning     Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.     Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with     it to me.<<     That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.     Snip Karl’s nonsense…     Karl     ATP     LR-Jet     CE-500     BE-300     15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot     Ooooh!     —     Jim Fisher     Cherokee 140     Warrior II     Cherokee 180     Cessna 172 Once (Under Duress)     Ford F-150

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The toughest part is the airport… Obviously, it is common knowledge that you are flying him in the performance of HIS work… From the airports point of view that constitutes a commercial activity originating at the airport, whether you get paid or not…

That may or may not be the case here. Frank did not say that they are charging the landing fee because it’s a commercial operation. Sounds to me like they have decided to charge fees for everybody. The only place "commercial" came into it was the proposal to have his friend pay the landing fee. And that is where it gets sticky. If he does so, he’s contributing to the cost of the flight and the "commonality of purpose" becomes an issue (as others have said). George Patterson,  N3162Q.

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Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

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  Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.   Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with   it to me.<<   That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.   So another pilot and I are planning to fly to Mooselips, Nevada for a little fun.  He’s interested in brunettes.  I have a big thing (okay, maybe an average thing . . . okay, maybe . . . never mind) for blondes.     There’s no "commonality of purpose" since blondes and red heads are obviously from different planets.  So I have to foot the entire bill, right?   Okay, you have to go to a Troll convention in Californy.  I need to go there for a He-Man High Wing Hater convention.  I’m not sure that I’d wanna fly with you anyway but if we could, we couldn’t, right?   Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight.   So, can I kinda hint around at the idea until my friend gets the message about going?  Does this need to be in writing?  Will a handshake count as a "ruling" or do we have to slice our palms and share blood?   Incidentally, the word "commonality" is not mentioned in the FAR’s anywhere.  Yeah, I was suckered enough to look it up and am pretty sure I pselled it right.   Karl   ATP   LR-Jet   CE-500   BE-300   15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot   Ooooh!   —   Jim Fisher   Cherokee 140   Warrior II   Cherokee 180   Cessna 172 Once (Under Duress)   Ford F-150

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That doesn’t agree with what I learned. Where in part 91 does it say that? Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.

Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me.<< That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not. Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight. Karl ATP LR-Jet CE-500 BE-300 15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

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I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

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Question:

A few months ago I got my cats The Feathered Flyer in the deluxe package with 5 different attachments. It came with one already attached. It was 2 black-tipped chicken feathers and a pink downy feather. It wasn’t long before the delicate downy feather broke. But the 2 chicken feathers took an awful lot of abuse. Somehow it became a nightly ritual that before I was allowed to go to bed, I had to swing the fishing pole. Djoser would wait, bright-eyed, on his perch by the bed and Amber would eagerly walk beside me as I approached the bed. Then the bird would fly. The boys would perform the most amazing acrobatics (are there any Cat Olympics?) trying to snag the bird. The pole is bent trying to get the bird loose to fly again and the feathers quickly became bedraggled. But they love it. Sheba usually sits on her cardboard scratcher watching the action. Occasionally I would swing it her way and she would make a pass at it. But she has never shown the interest that the boys do. One morning I was waking up with my first cup of coffee when I heard a rather strangled mreow like Sheba does when she has her mouth full of prey. So I go to check on her and find her dragging the flyer with her mouth full of feathers! I have often come home to find the Flyer in the middle of the floor but assumed it was the boys playing with it. Now I know it is Sheba. Dragging it on the floor , it has a tail, and she loves anything with a tail like my necklaces or a drawstring, etc. A couple days ago one of the feathers broke off and today the other one broke. The shafts had a lot of teeth marks  and bends and the feathery parts were mangled. So I gave the poor things a decent burial. The new attachment is a violet section of boa and Sheba loves it. She got a death grip on it and was busy killing it. I finally managed to get it to try out on the boys. they played for awhile but weren’t as interested. It is too soft. The chicken feathers would make a swishing sound as they flew, like a real bird. Maybe I will have to get another flyer with chicken feathers just for the boys. CATherine

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Sheba . . .has never shown the interest that the boys do.

Do you suppose this is a boy/girl thing? Max (RB) loved this toy deeply, as your boys do, and would always respond with aerobatics. Clementine, the current Queen of The Household, watches it fly by and says "Yes, Dear, that’s very nice, and I’m glad you enjoy it, but it’s really not my sort of thing". As a kitten, though, she’d wait for it to come within range and then snatch it from my hand and go tearing down the hall with the "tail" bouncing wildly. I quickly learned my part in this game was to follow, retrieve the bird, and repeat until my legs would no longer respond.

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Question:

Will be in Negril area in late October. Any suggestions for fly opportunities appreciated. Please email. Thanks- Kent

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Enough Jamaica bashing!!.

Don’t like Jamaica, oh no. I love her. Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach "The only people who have any business fishing are  young boys and married men. Everyone else should be  out getting laid."  …I said that.

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Enough Jamaica bashing!!. Don’t like Jamaica, oh no. I love her.

It was a present for my muther…

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Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach "The only people who have any business fishing are  young boys and married men. Everyone else should be  out getting laid."  …I said that.

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At Hedonism II you woun’t have to worry about your fly. Or wearing pants. Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach "The only people who have any business fishing are  young boys and married men. Everyone else should be  out getting laid."  …I said that.

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Enough Jamaica bashing!!. It is an undiscovered resource from the tarpon in Montego Bay to the flats that are not endless sand bottom flats, but the kind that run out from the shore to the reef that rings lots of the island and is immediately accesible from the road that runs along the coast from Ocho Rios to Negril. It helps tremendously to get a local driver who can properly interpret for an American what is happening. Then you’ll actually stop at a jerk stand or roadside bar and step from the road into the water and cast for tarpon etc. while the locals sipping red stripes wonder what the hell you’re doing. I assume that your flying into Montego bay and then busing to Negril. The road is in bad shape, and so the relatively few miles can take a couple of hours. Pay attention to the water out the right side of the bus and you’ll see where to fish. Hey, if you don’t take your rod your not going to fish. I. Clair

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Yes, don’t fly to Jamaica!  Lamest island in that neck of the world. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will be in Negril area in late October. Any suggestions for fly opportunities appreciated. Please email.

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…got a little Rasta buddy down ther who’ll put you right on trans love – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will be in Negril area in late October. Any suggestions for fly opportunities appreciated. Please email. Thanks- Kent

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Will be in Negril area in late October. Any suggestions for fly opportunities appreciated. Please email.

Was in Jamaica for my honeymoon, so fishing was not on my list of activities that week.   However, I’d recommend a Rastafarian named "Lucky" down near Ocho Rios for samples of the local vegetation.   In Negril, I’d go to one of the "clothing optional" resorts, then you won’t have to worry about your fly.  :-) Joe F.

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places Can you imagine how disgusting it would be to have someone who’s been handling worms all day in front of you in the buffet line ? Pawing over the prawns, fondling the foie gras, sticking his worm drenched digits in YOUR caviar ? Not sure Ken, but I believe you may have misinterpreted the question. Your reply suggests possible problems on returning to the lodge AFTER fishing.  I think a closer reading will reveal that Gavin was wondering why bait fishing is not allowed ON the buffet line.  A different kettle of fish altogether IMHO. Wolfgang um……are you gonna eat that?

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don’t see too many beer cans, corn cans, Styrofoam worm containers, empty cigarette packs, soiled undershorts, motor oil bottles, cheeze-it wrappers and thrice used condoms left behind by fly fishermen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin Most fly-fisherman that I know have chosen to fly-fish over bait- fishing due to the challenge and enjoyment it brings to them.  Being alone or almost alone in the wild and walking up or down the river where they can feel as though they are part of the wild experience is a major part for many fly-fisherman.  Locations that cater to that type of experience often have a lot in stake in keeping the experience as pristine and pure as they can as well as keeping the fish as large and healthy as possible. A couple of states have asked their local anglers to help them with how to stock their local waters.  Would they rather catch: 1) a few large fish, or 2) many small fish.  Each state’s end result was "a few large fish."  This is especially true with fly-fisherman.  Fly-fisherman go to the lodges for the pristine experience, education, and to catch "The Big One." The problem with bait-fishing is that it spoils the experience and fishing conditions for the fly-fisherman.  Live bait, like worms, can contaminate the water with diseases, like whirling disease, which kills or harms the fish.  Treble hooks used for Power Bait are often swallowed and can not be removed without harming the fish.  Bait- fisherman fishing in groups allow their poles to rest against something while they wait for a fish to take-the-bait as they talk, make jokes, drink, and generally pas the time.  This is not the experience most fly- fisherman want to see as they come around a bend in the river. In locations that I fish where bait-fishing is also allowed, I cringe every time I see things like this.  I move through the area as fast as I can until I get to another pristine location which will always be farther than their voice travels.  I often find litter and discarded fishing-gear in locations that bait-fishermen were.  This also destroys the experience for me and generally makes my blood boil. Because of fly-fisherman like me that spend money to keep private locations like this alive, they have normally restrict the fishing to fly-fishing with C&R restrictions. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                            quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly-fishing. . . . When I want to go fly-fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only.  I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Since you are only 16 and the only one in your family that enjoys fly- fishing, just go where your mom and dad take you. BTW, lodges will be different according to what the people in a given area want.  I have no idea what lodges are like in South Africa.  Since you own a fly-shop in South Africa, why don’t you tell us why the serious lodges are fly-fising only.  You are the South Africa Pro. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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I know how I am going on here I think I am a well respected fly fisherman in my area and I respect all other fly fisherman

Ah, the "I’m OK, You’re OK" psychology.  Well here we do things a little differently.  Sometimes it’s "I’m OK, You’re not OK", and sometimes it’s "I’m not OK, You’re not OK", but definitely "You’re not OK".  :-) Regards, Jeff

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| Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly | | I know how I am going on here I think I am a well respected fly fisherman | in my area and I respect all other fly fisherman | | Ah, the "I’m OK, You’re OK" psychology.  Well here we do things a little | differently.  Sometimes it’s "I’m OK, You’re not OK", and sometimes it’s "I’m | not OK, You’re not OK", but definitely "You’re not OK".  :-) | | Regards, | Jeff Im not joking there are many people around here who look up to me mostly youngsters though, you see fly fishing is also relatively new around here I was probably the youngest fly fisherman around my area I started about 6 years ago aged 10 and was probably only one of a handful of people who could actually do it properly I went to a number of clinics so you see a lot of people look up to me because like I said fly fishing is new and I have caught species of fish that many fly fisherman have never heard of before in there life and I am still "EXPERIMENTING" with our other local fish especially carp, catfish etc. with very limited success so I try fly fishing when ever and where ever I can otherwise I go back to bait/spin fishing practice makes perfect and the best teacher around here are the fish hope I never upset any one just airing my views tight lines Gavin

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I started about 6 years ago aged 10

Are you only 16 years old?  Just a lad.  All the power to you boy. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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told him what to buy at the local tackle store so he could fish nymphs with his spinning rod. Geez, I wish I had a son who liked to fish. (Forget about, Warren — I mean a sub-teenage boy.)

Sounds like there was one there you might be able to borrow once in a while. I suspect you both left with a grin on the face. Big Dale

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Geez, I wish I had a son who liked to fish. (Forget about, Warren — I mean a sub-teenage boy.)

    right you are, rw; i’ve had two like that, and it’s tough to beat the memories.     …on the other hand, i also had a receptionist back in the mid 70’s who just *loved* to watch; on balance, i’d say it’s too close to call. wayno

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 At 50 I tend to envy the lad.Ah for the years I spent at war to be returned to me so that all my memories were of the fish I lost and the fish I landed. Gavin you are in for some good memories by the time you reach 50. —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  RVN 69-73  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I started about 6 years ago aged 10 Are you only 16 years old?  Just a lad.  All the power to you boy. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also forgot to mention that I used to do spinfishing and baitfishing in south africa for the local species of fish (carp catfish bream etc.) these fish are almost impossible to catch on fly because dams are usually 30 meters deep (probably more) they were murky etc so I used to spin and bait fish as well(so fly fishing is not an option)  and disagree with what all you said as every one here uses a type of high protein bait made of dog food to catch trout I know how I am going on here I think I am a well respected fly fisherman in my area and I respect all other fly fisherman regards and tight lines Gavin

I think Lefty Kreh would differ with you.  I’ve seen a t.v. show where he was fly-fishing for carp in what looked like very deep water. Additionally, I’ve caught carp on a fly.  I’ve also seen others fly- fish for catfish.  My friend is in the Bahamas is right now fly-fishing for tuna, shark, and marlin.  He chose to do that instead of coming to the clave with me.  You would be surprised what you can fish for with a fly. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

______ Sir Gavin?  I you sure you’re not a trolling fisherman.  Where did  you park your boat? — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com "the sage continues"

  gink.vcf

< 1K Download

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After I caught my six trout and a couple of nice whitefish I let the kid fish with my rod, which was rigged with a bead-head pheasant tail and hare’s ear tandem and a foam indicator.

Ah… the joys of fucking nymph fishing!! Regards, Jeff

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I also forgot to mention that I used to do spinfishing and baitfishing in south africa for the local species of fish (carp catfish bream etc.) these fish are almost impossible to catch on fly because dams are usually 30 meters deep (probably more) they were murky etc so I used to spin and bait fish as well(so fly fishing is not an option)  and disagree with what all you said as every one here uses a type of high protein bait made of dog food to catch trout I know how I am going on here I think I am a well respected fly fisherman in my area and I respect all other fly fisherman regards and tight lines Gavin

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That kid will never forget that day!  Cheers.  :-) Natty

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don’t see too many beer cans, corn cans, Styrofoam worm containers, empty cigarette packs, soiled undershorts, motor oil bottles, cheeze-it wrappers and thrice used condoms left behind by fly fishermen

On my recently reported trip to the Stanislaus, we saw nothing but spin fishermen.  I won’t say that there was no trash, but my brother and I were able to pick up *every* piece of trash we saw, and take it back to the dumpster without a sack.  That means there wasn’t much trash. — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

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I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Response:

… I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places

Can you imagine how disgusting it would be to have someone who’s been handling worms all day in front of you in the buffet line ? Pawing over the prawns, fondling the foie gras, sticking his worm drenched digits in YOUR caviar ? Yuck. — Ken Fortenberry- and I hear bait fishermen smell bad too

Response:

… I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places Can you imagine how disgusting it would be to have someone who’s been handling worms all day in front of you in the buffet line ? Pawing over the prawns, fondling the foie gras, sticking his worm drenched digits in YOUR caviar ? Yuck.

What Ken’s tactfully saying is that they’ve seen your family and don’t want them to come. Joe F.

Response:

Bait fishing tends to result in gut hooked fish. This is not ideal for C&R. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Response:

What Ken’s tactfully saying is that they’ve seen your family and don’t want them to come. Joe F.

Seen ‘em myself.  Never did like ‘em, their feet don’t match. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

… I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places Can you imagine how disgusting it would be to have someone who’s been handling worms all day in front of you in the buffet line ? Pawing over the prawns, fondling the foie gras, sticking his worm drenched digits in YOUR caviar ?

Not sure Ken, but I believe you may have misinterpreted the question. Your reply suggests possible problems on returning to the lodge AFTER fishing.  I think a closer reading will reveal that Gavin was wondering why bait fishing is not allowed ON the buffet line.  A different kettle of fish altogether IMHO. Wolfgang um……are you gonna eat that?

Response:

I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Watch one of the bobber-bubbas fish for trout on a stream.  They’ll plop down beside a hole with their cooler and a lawn chair and wait for a trout to swim by and dunk their bobber.  They would just as soon plop down beside the hole you’re fishing in and seriously think they have the same opportunity to catch a trout out of that hole as you do; which by the time they get settled is probably true.  Damndest thing I ever saw involving a bobber-bubba fishing for trout was a pickup beside a trout stream, bubba in a lawn chair killing worms, his wife squatting over a 2 burner Coleman stove and a frying pan on the truck’s tailgate waiting for lunch. Don’t really understand it, Bluegill are better eating, custom made for bobber-bubbas, and a bobber-bubba and a fly fisherman can work the same pond with equal results for the frying pan.  The fly fisherman will just have more fun.  It’s also much more fun to watch a kid catch a bunch of Bluegill on a cane pole with a bobber than watch a kid not catch a trout on a cane fly rod. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Most fly-fisherman that I know have chosen to fly-fish over bait- fishing due to the challenge and enjoyment it brings to them.  Being alone or almost alone in the wild and walking up or down the river where they can feel as though they are part of the wild experience is a major part for many fly-fisherman.  Locations that cater to that type of experience often have a lot in stake in keeping the experience as pristine and pure as they can as well as keeping the fish as large and healthy as possible. A couple of states have asked their local anglers to help them with how to stock their local waters.  Would they rather catch: 1) a few large fish, or 2) many small fish.  Each state’s end result was "a few large fish."  This is especially true with fly-fisherman.  Fly-fisherman go to the lodges for the pristine experience, education, and to catch "The Big One." The problem with bait-fishing is that it spoils the experience and fishing conditions for the fly-fisherman.  Live bait, like worms, can contaminate the water with diseases, like whirling disease, which kills or harms the fish.  Treble hooks used for Power Bait are often swallowed and can not be removed without harming the fish.  Bait- fisherman fishing in groups allow their poles to rest against something while they wait for a fish to take-the-bait as they talk, make jokes, drink, and generally pas the time.  This is not the experience most fly- fisherman want to see as they come around a bend in the river. In locations that I fish where bait-fishing is also allowed, I cringe every time I see things like this.  I move through the area as fast as I can until I get to another pristine location which will always be farther than their voice travels.  I often find litter and discarded fishing-gear in locations that bait-fishermen were.  This also destroys the experience for me and generally makes my blood boil. Because of fly-fisherman like me that spend money to keep private locations like this alive, they have normally restrict the fishing to fly-fishing with C&R restrictions. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

There’s a place in Stanley, right next to a hotel, that is heavily stocked with "catchable" (i.e., barely legal size) trout. I sometimes go there to catch six fish for dinner, to experiment with techniques, or just to pass the time. The other day there were some kids fishing there (staying at the hotel, I believe). They were using those weird colored salmon eggs that come in jars, and they were catching absolutely nothing. When I started fishing with my fly rod this one boy of about 12 years was fascinated, and when I started catching fish he was transfixed. These fish are so easy it’s ridiculous. They’ll eat various nymphs like popcorn. After I caught my six trout and a couple of nice whitefish I let the kid fish with my rod, which was rigged with a bead-head pheasant tail and hare’s ear tandem and a foam indicator. Pretty soon he got the knack of chucking the rig out into the main current and mending the line to get a more-or-less dead drift. After pulling off a couple of fish with a too vigorous hook set, he caught two fish in about 10 minutes, and I think I made a flyfishing convert. I told him what to buy at the local tackle store so he could fish nymphs with his spinning rod. Geez, I wish I had a son who liked to fish. (Forget about, Warren — I mean a sub-teenage boy.) — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Question:

I will be in Australia’s Northern Territory (near Darwin) in late August through September. I was hoping someone could offer some advice as to what weight rods I should bring and what type of flies. Any help will be greatly appreciated. -Alex Hill

Response:

I will be in Australia’s Northern Territory (near Darwin) in late August through September. I was hoping someone could offer some advice as to what weight rods I should bring and what type of flies. Any help will be greatly appreciated. -Alex Hill

from what appears to be the area you are describing. He has developed some flies that were effective enough for his son to establish a new world record on one of the fish (I don’t remember the name)in a line/tippet class. Please mention Flymaker during your communication. It will probably cause him to be more willing to be of assistance.

Response:

I will be in Australia’s Northern Territory (near Darwin) in late August through September. I was hoping someone could offer some advice as to what weight rods I should bring and what type of flies. Any help will be greatly appreciated. -Alex Hill

Hi Alex, What sort of fish do you want to catch? Freshwater rivers and billabongs (lakes) – barramundi are not really on the bite at that time of year, but saratoga are and are excellent sport on 8-10 wt rods with surface flies like dahlberg divers. Saltwater is excellent in August-September with large spanish mackerel (king mackerel?), longtail tuna, queenfish and giant trevally all close to Darwin. I will try to get some Darwin guides email addresses or phone numbers for you. Cheers John Knight Sydney Fly Rodders’

Response:

Question:

Im looking for 3 patterns:  Bitch Creek, Yuk Bug, and a North Platte Special.  Any info would be greatly appreciated as I am fairly new to tying my own flies.  You can respond to the e-mail listed below: Again thanks for your help!

Response:

I’d suggest you spring for the Umpaqua Fly Pattern book, it has at least the first two. Not sure about the NP special. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Im looking for 3 patterns:  Bitch Creek, Yuk Bug, and a North Platte Special.  Any info would be greatly appreciated as I am fairly new to tying my own flies.  You can respond to the e-mail listed below: Again thanks for your help!

Response:

Im looking for 3 patterns:  Bitch Creek, Yuk Bug, and a North Platte Special.  Any info would be greatly appreciated as I am fairly new to tying my own flies.  You can respond to the e-mail listed below: Again thanks for your help!

That’s what fly fishing catalogues are for!  Between Kaufmann’s, Orvis, and LLBean (ugly flies in that one!) you can find a whole bunch of flies to copy

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kenrat I go to the Smokeys every year in February.  Middle prong and the other areas are ok.  The most interesting fishing is off of Cade’s Cove.  Go to the parking lot at the far end of the Cove and you can enter the water there.  This is a limestone stream.  Be careful of the water as it can be contaminated by the cow manure from inside the Cove where cattle are grazed.  The stream is atypical for the park as it is the only limestone stream.  There is a trail that parallels the stream.  It is quite a hike. The best fishing lies at the falls on the far end of the trail or in an area called the horseshoe.  The best access according to the guys from there is not the trial, but the river.  They indicated that full chest waders were needed and that wading stafffs were a must. The sure thing by way of trout is the Cherokee Reservation.  It is stocked monthly by the tribe.  They sell their own license and the limit is double that of the park.  To fish the park you need either a Carolina or Tenn. license.  They don’t care which.  The fish in the reservation were of small to mid sized.  They hit on streamers.  I used a dry as a strike indicator and a couple of nymphs trailing.

Thanks for the information!  Will look at the reservation area a little more. Hadn’t really thought about it. Many thanks….Kenny

Response:

Am new to the fly fishing arena.  Wondering if someone can give me some general info on the national park fishing areas close to the Gatlinburg area. Wondering about access, types of flys to have in arsenal for fishing for trout, rockbass or other.  Will be there during first weekend in February.  Appreciate any assistance and info! Thanks, Kenny

Response:

Am new to the fly fishing arena.  Wondering if someone can give me some general info on the national park fishing areas close to the Gatlinburg area. Wondering about access, types of flys to have in arsenal for fishing for trout, rockbass or other.  Will be there during first weekend in February.  Appreciate any assistance and info! Thanks, Kenny

Dear Kenny!             Gatlinburg area in February can be unpredictable. If you are lucky it’s 55 degrees and sunny or it could be 32 and snow. I would try West prong of Little Pigeon right off US 441 in the park. You also have Little River and Roaring Fork easily accessible as well as Middle  prong of Little Pigeon. I would use a beadhead nymph or a streamer this time of the year. I know you can catch trout on dries in February but I have more luck with nymphs. A pheasant tail or a Hare’s ear work fine for me. I wish you could come in April or May when the real action begins but February is better than nothing. Sincerely Hans

Response:

Try calling Jesse Brown Outdoors, Charlotte, NC to start with and talk to Don, he might be able to help you out. (704) 556-0020 Jon

Response:

Sorry  to disappoint, but ignore the GSMNP until the spring when the water warms up, hatches appear, and the trout are active again. I know, I have  flyfished this area for 16 years.  Concentrate on the tailwaters of the area.  The Clinch river is great right now!!!!  Average catches inthe 30’s on scuds, and midges.  The S. holston is also very good, with some BWO, and occational Sulphur or two. For info call THE CREEL 423.588.6159 in Knoxville. By the way, what in the hell does a flyshop in Charlotte know of conditions in the Smokies anyway?  Let them clean up the Pigeon first, before they bring their a– over here! Phil B. check out this web page: http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ldecuir/default.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry  to disappoint, but ignore the GSMNP until the spring when the water warms up, hatches appear, and the trout are active again. I know, I have  flyfished this area for 16 years.  Concentrate on the tailwaters of the area.  The Clinch river is great right now!!!!  Average catches inthe 30’s on scuds, and midges.  The S. holston is also very good, with some BWO, and occational Sulphur or two. For info call THE CREEL 423.588.6159 in Knoxville. By the way, what in the hell does a flyshop in Charlotte know of conditions in the Smokies anyway?  Let them clean up the Pigeon first, before they bring their a– over here! Phil B. check out this web page: http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ldecuir/default.html

Thanks for a very considerate attitude. If you read my post I said try to come in April or June didn’t I? Can you read? Also I have only fished in this area for three years and I have seen hatches in February. Maybe you should stay at the Clinch and let us have the mountains. I don’t care much about the stocked trout anyway. The less time you spend in the smokies the better for me. Hans

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try calling Jesse Brown Outdoors, Charlotte, NC to start with and talk to Don, he might be able to help you out. (704) 556-0020 Jon

Thanks for the number and info.  Will try to get in contact with them.  Any help is appreciated!

Response:

Am new to the fly fishing arena.  Wondering if someone can give me some general info on the national park fishing areas close to the Gatlinburg area. Wondering about access, types of flys to have in arsenal for fishing for trout, rockbass or other.  Will be there during first weekend in February.  Appreciate any assistance and info! Thanks, Kenny

Kenny,         I was just in the Smokies over new years (during the snowstorm).  The fishing was very bad but the scenery was great. While I was there, I picked up a copy of a book called A Flyfishing Guide to the Smoky Mountains.  It gives good information about the seasons there and gives detailed information about each of the watersheds in the National Park.  I would recommend it.  E-mail me if you need more information about the author etc.  There are a number of other texts that have come out recently on the park and fishing.  I have not yet had time to look them over.

Response:

Kenrat I go to the Smokeys every year in February.  Middle prong and the other areas are ok.  The most interesting fishing is off of Cade’s Cove.  Go to the parking lot at the far end of the Cove and you can enter the water there.  This is a limestone stream.  Be careful of the water as it can be contaminated by the cow manure from inside the Cove where cattle are grazed.  The stream is atypical for the park as it is the only limestone stream.  There is a trail that parallels the stream.  It is quite a hike. The best fishing lies at the falls on the far end of the trail or in an area called the horseshoe.  The best access according to the guys from there is not the trial, but the river.  They indicated that full chest waders were needed and that wading stafffs were a must. The sure thing by way of trout is the Cherokee Reservation.  It is stocked monthly by the tribe.  They sell their own license and the limit is double that of the park.  To fish the park you need either a Carolina or Tenn. license.  They don’t care which.  The fish in the reservation were of small to mid sized.  They hit on streamers.  I used a dry as a strike indicator and a couple of nymphs trailing. Ron’s advice on the flies is right on. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Am new to the fly fishing arena.  Wondering if someone can give me some general info on the national park fishing areas close to the Gatlinburg area. Wondering about access, types of flys to have in arsenal for fishing for trout, rockbass or other.  Will be there during first weekend in February. Appreciate any assistance and info! Thanks, Kenny

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Smoky Mountain Questions Am new to the fly fishing arena.  Wondering if someone can give me some general info on the national park fishing areas close to the Gatlinburg area. Wondering about access, types of flys to have in arsenal for fishing for trout, rockbass or other.  Will be there during first weekend in February. Appreciate any assistance and info! Thanks, Kenny Kenny,    I was just in the Smokies over new years (during the snowstorm).  The fishing was very bad but the scenery was great. While I was there, I picked up a copy of a book called A Flyfishing Guide to the Smoky Mountains.  It gives good information about the seasons there and gives detailed information about each of the watersheds in the National Park.  I would recommend it.  E-mail me if you need more information about the author etc.  There are a number of other texts that have come out recently on the park and fishing.  I have not yet had time to look them over.

Thanks!!  Have seen the book at one of the websites.  Wondered if it was worth picking up.  Am going to try some of the bookstores around here before I look to order it. Just for anyone who is interested – Found a little 5 dollar booklet on Hatches in the Smoky Mountains.  If anyone wants any further info, let me know and I will get some.  Looked pretty helpful. Thanks….Kenny

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have used a fiberglass drift boat (16ft) for several years now on the Deschutes, upto class 4 whitewater.  Great boat.  If you plan on hitting a few rocks wood is not a good choice.  lots of maintenance-drying out, snding, refinishing 9but they are beautiful.  Company in Portland that sells plans and kits (Greg tatman- adds in flyfishing magazines).  The bow or stern depends on definition-  pointed part goes downriver but you row the other way-  anchor system goes on the broad end, but if lake fishing you need one on the pointed end as the boat will spin very easily in any wind.  Most driftboats will also take up to 10 hp motor.  I have 36lb thrust elecric for my and moves boat very well.  Aluminum is very durable but also noisy.  Definitely a 16ft for three people.  Enjoy

Response:

Hi, My name is Al Beatty and I’m one of a few guides who use a wood drift boat.  You definitely want a 16′ boat for three people; a 14′ boat is too "squirrely" especially in the wind.  I guide in Montana and wind is a definite concern regarding drift boats.  Don Hill makes a really great wood drift boat and also has plans if you want to build your own.  You can find his address in most fly fishing magazines or ask your local fly shop. Normally you run a drift boat down the river bow first and usually the anchor is located on the stern of the boat. Good luck! Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Catalog Available 406-585-0745 (phn & fax)

Response:

Either the Macenzie design(square front) or the Rogue is quite acceptable. Yes the wood  boats are more maintenance but also offer the greatest pleasure.Ever seen photographs of finished wood boats on the river? Compared to plastic or Aluminun there is no comparison.Also a wood boat,contrary to most opinions, is an easier rowing boat; wood boats float upside down!They also don’t blow around in the wind as bad as glass boats,especially the glass boats with rolled gunnels. One downside to a wood boat is lack of watertight storage but that is overcome with dry bags. www:http://www.accessone.com/~davy

Response:

Agree with you comments.  Built a 17′ Rogue River and it has been a jewel to fish from.  Had a fiberglass one previouly.  The wood, drift easier, is easier to handle in big water, is not affected by the wind very much and tracks perfectly.  It is muck quieter and a lot warmer then the fiberglass and metal.  Floated the Keani this week.  Air tempeture was 20 degrees but yet the bottom of the boat was comfortable. — Gene Dobrzynski, Eagle River, Alaska

Response:

 One of the things you forgot to mention was weight. Aluminum being the lightest, then fiberglass and wood. Ernie Harrison

Hmmmm. I’ll agree that aluminum boats are the sturdiest…hands down. But lightest? Not the ones I’ve seen. I remember guiding with Doug McClelland (former TU president, or some such) a few years ago. Doug’s Aumaweld was so heavy I nearly busted a gut trying to help him get it off the trailer. I wonder if anyone has the real weights: say what a 16 Lavro, ClackaCraft or SlideRite weighs compared to an Alumaweld, Willie’s or whatever.   One last point about Aluminum boats: steelhead guides who backtroll plugs like the sharp, molded chine of an aluminum boat, becuase it acts like a keel, and makes it easier to hold a "track" down through a good run. But every silver lining has its pepto bismol counter part…..that sharp, hard chine catches the water too hard when you are rowing sideways to a fast current. Try pulling out into a fast current after eddying out behind a mid-river bolder (with an aluminum driftboat)…..then you’ll get an appreciation for a smooth, rounded chine (like you get in a molded boat).   If you do decide to buy a molded boat, get the stiffest one you can find. Soft bottoms and flexible sides just create lost motion in the rowing process, which makes ’soft’ boats harder to row, and slower to move. —

Response:

I am not sure that Irish and Scots Gillies would agree with your sentiments about glass fibre boats.  Their experience, and I lived to tell the tale, is that properly built wooden boats will take more punishment than GRP – especially when rocks are invisible just below the surface and you only find out they are there too late.  GRP is so easy to look after, which is why that is my choice on Loch Ness (no rocks!) Good fishing Oliver Inverness-shire

Response:

Mike, it is unfortunate that a person can’t get all of the good features in one boat.  One of the things you forgot to mention was weight. Aluminum being the lightest, then fiberglass and wood. There was an article several years ago in Flyfishing about a fellow who recovered drift boats that people lost on Oregon’s salmon and steelhead rivers.  It was amazing what the water had done to these boats.  The fiberglass and wood boats were mostly damaged beyond repair.  The welded aluminum boats were generally all recoverable. Ernie Harrison

Response:

I’m considering building a MacKenzie River drift boat, for use both on local rivers and smaller lakes.  This design is alleged to be quite adequate for drifting and much better for motoring than the Rogue River style drift boat. Does anyone have experience drift-fishing with this type of boat?  Do you drift with bow or stern downstream?  I assume you anchor bow-upstream…but can you mount an anchor bracket on the bow?  For three people, is a 14′ OK or should I go 16′?  Any experience or observations on this type of boat are welcome. Thanks.

Response:

I used a wood drift for several years in Oregon on the coast streams.  A lot of maintenance, thats for sure. But its the best flyfishing platform I’ve ever used. The fiberglass boats seemed to float higher, draw less water, and be more durable.

Response:

"There is an aluminum welded drift boat (Alumnaweld?) which is probably the most durable of all the drift boats and very low maintenance.. Ernie Harrison" Ernie, Alumaweld, the original welded aluminum driftboat.  For more contemporary designs in aluminum, see FishRite and/or Willie Boats. IMHO, Aluminum….noisy, durable, cold, NOT slippery unless bottom is treatet with Gluvit or plastic.  Capable of being made with a hard chine so hold well n water for backtrolling etc. Fiberglass…durable, quieter than aluminum, slippery, flexible rather than a rigid bottom like aluminum, rounded or soft chines. Wood…quietest and warmest, hard chines, classic craftmanship (Rays River Boats of Portland Oregon are some of the best), may be constructed with West System Epoxy techniques to reduce maintenance requirements.  Also, the only naturally buoyant construction material and the lowest center of gravity.                           Mike in PDX                "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                                            Tom McGuane

Response:

writes: The fiberglass boats seemed to float higher, draw less water, and be more durable.

There is an aluminum welded drift boat (Alumnaweld?) which is probably the most durable of all the drift boats and very low maintenance.. Ernie Harrison

Response:

I have used a fiberglass drift boat (16ft) for several years now on the Deschutes, upto class 4 whitewater.  Great boat.  If you plan on hitting a few rocks wood is not a good choice.  lots of maintenance-drying out, snding, refinishing 9but they are beautiful.  Company in Portland that sells plans and kits (Greg tatman- adds in flyfishing magazines).  The bow or stern depends on definition-  pointed part goes downriver but you row the other way-  anchor system goes on the broad end, but if lake fishing you need one on the pointed end as the boat will spin very easily in any wind.  Most driftboats will also take up to 10 hp motor.  I have 36lb thrust elecric for my and moves boat very well.  Aluminum is very durable but also noisy.  Definitely a 16ft for three people.  Enjoy

Response: