Question:

…reading a bit of ol bartram’s writings from the late 1700s (e-document on a UNC web site noted at the bottom of this post)and ran upon the following… southern fly-fishing heritage, eh? course, like most furriners, ol bartram didn’t know a trout from whatever it was those boys were dappin out from under the river bank in Florida… "….covered with the white hair of a deer’s tail, shreds of a red garter, and some particoloured feathers…." Fascinating.  Thanks for posting it. JR

thanks jeffie…. bartram’s travels is a classic….. well worth the read. –waldo, hoping i still have a copy somewheres…

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Appreciate posts on FF history, thanx. Dave

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Jeff  I missed the post explaing UnC  web to read early Bartram—-please offer again– Playing tennis thru Nov 11 but if you are interested in a western N.C. trip after that   let me know–only one  proviso ( a legal term I think )   motel rooms cannot be exited before six in morning.–Jeff and IJ sharinmg motel room-at 2:30 AM  AM Jeff showers and says I’ve had enought sleep  let"s o  – IJ ask it’s raining and dark and foggy and the next three hour drive is all curves–what the hell are we going to do in Graham Co. N.C at five Am in the mornimng??   Jeff yea but we will miss most of the traffic.  IJ

Response:

Playing tennis thru Nov 11 but if you are interested in a western N.C. trip after that   let me know–only one  proviso ( a legal term I think ) motel rooms cannot be exited before six in morning.–Jeff and IJ sharinmg motel room-at 2:30 AM  AM Jeff showers and says I’ve had enought sleep  let"s o  – IJ ask it’s raining and dark and foggy and the next three hour drive is all curves–what the hell are we going to do in Graham Co. N.C at five Am in the mornimng??   Jeff yea but we will miss most of the traffic.  IJ

I believe that somehow I must be related to Jeff Miller. I’m off to call my mom. –Steve

Response:

i think this is what you wanted, but not sure…  http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/bartram/bartram.html …i’m probably not gonna be able to get back to the mountains before christmas… but i might get ol pj and make a visit to you and that bass pond you keep braggin about… we’d arrive early and leave late, eat all your food, and drink your whisky… and since jim’s comin, you might wanna warn dene too… i hear it’s nice in wilmington this time of year… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-CH digitization project, Documenting the American South.

Response:

…reading a bit of ol bartram’s writings from the late 1700s (e-document on a UNC web site noted at the bottom of this post)and ran upon the following… southern fly-fishing heritage, eh? course, like most furriners, ol bartram didn’t know a trout from whatever it was those boys were dappin out from under the river bank in Florida…

"….covered with the white hair of a deer’s tail, shreds of a red garter, and some particoloured feathers…."   Fascinating.  Thanks for posting it. JR

Response:

That ‘delicious food’ part doesn’t seem to fit, does it? riverman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …reading a bit of ol bartram’s writings from the late 1700s (e-document on a UNC web site noted at the bottom of this post)and ran upon the following… southern fly-fishing heritage, eh? course, like most furriners, ol bartram didn’t know a trout from whatever it was those boys were dappin out from under the river bank in Florida… jeff <Page 108 "ON my return, I found some of my companions fishing for trout, round about the edges of the floating nymphaea, and not unsuccessfully, having then caught more than sufficient for us all. As the method of taking these fish is curious and singular, I shall just mention it. THEY are taken with a hook and line, but without any bait. Two people are in a little canoe, one sitting in the stern to steer, and the other near the bow, having a rod ten or twelve feet in length, to one end of which is tied a strong line, about twenty inches in length, to which is fastened three large hooks, back to back. These are fixed very securely, and covered with the white hair of a deer’s tail, shreds of a red garter, and some particoloured feathers, all which form a tuft, or tassel, nearly as large as one’s fist, and entirely cover and conceal the hooks:

this is called a bob. The steersman paddles softly, and proceeds slowly along shore, keeping the

boat parallel to it, at a distance just sufficient to admit the fisherman to reach the edge of

the floating weeds along shore: he now ingeniously swings the bob backwards and forwards, just above the surface, and sometimes tips the water with it; when the unfortunate cheated trout

instantly springs from under the weeds, and seizes the supposed prey. Thus he is caught without a

possibility of escape, unless he break the hooks, line, or rod, which he, however, sometime does

by dint of strength; but, to prevent this, the fisherman used to the sport is careful not to

raise the reed suddenly up, but jerks it instantly backwards, then steadily drags the sturdy reluctant

fish to the side of the < Page 109 canoe, and with a sudden upright jerk brings him into it. THE head of this fish makes about one third of his length, and

consequently the mouth is very large: birds, fish, frogs, and even serpents, are frequently found in its stomach. THE trout is of lead colour, inclining to a deep blue, and marked with

transverse waved lists, of a deep slate colour, and when fully grown, has a cast of red, or brick colour. The fins, with the tail, which is large, and beautifully formed, are of a light

reddish purple, or flesh colour, the whole body is covered with large scales. But what is most singular,

this fish is remarkably ravenous; nothing living, that he can seize upon, escapes his jaws, and the opening

and extending of the branchiostega, at the moment he rises to the surface to seize his prey,

discovering his bright red gills, through the transparent waters, give him a very terible appearance. Indeed

it may be observed, that all fish of prey have this opening and covering of the gills very large, in

order to discharge the great quantity of water, which they take in at their mouth, when they

strike at their prey. This fish is nearly cuniform, the body tapering gradually from the breast to the

tail, and lightly compressed on each side. They frequently weigh fifteen, twenty and thirty pounds, and are delicious food. …quoted from Travels Through North & South Carolina, Georgia, East & West

Florida, the Cherokee Country, the Extensive Territories of the Muscogulges, or Creek Confederacy, and the

Country of the Chactaws; Containing An Account of the Soil and Natural Productions of Those Regions,

Together with Observations on the Manners of the Indians. Embellished with Copper-Plates (spine) Bartram’s Travels William Bartram xxxiv, 522 p., ill. PHILADELPHIA: PRINTED BY JAMES & JOHNSON. M, DCC, XCI. Call number VC917 B29 (North Carolina Collection, University of North

Carolina at Chapel Hill) http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/bartram/bartram.html —–        The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-CH digitization

project, Documenting the American South. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

…reading a bit of ol bartram’s writings from the late 1700s (e-document on a UNC web site noted at the bottom of this post)and ran upon the following… southern fly-fishing heritage, eh? course, like most furriners, ol bartram didn’t know a trout from whatever it was those boys were dappin out from under the river bank in Florida… jeff <Page 108         "ON my return, I found some of my companions fishing for trout, round about the edges of the floating nymphaea, and not unsuccessfully, having then caught more than sufficient for us all. As the method of taking these fish is curious and singular, I shall just mention it.         THEY are taken with a hook and line, but without any bait. Two people are in a little canoe, one sitting in the stern to steer, and the other near the bow, having a rod ten or twelve feet in length, to one end of which is tied a strong line, about twenty inches in length, to which is fastened three large hooks, back to back. These are fixed very securely, and covered with the white hair of a deer’s tail, shreds of a red garter, and some particoloured feathers, all which form a tuft, or tassel, nearly as large as one’s fist, and entirely cover and conceal the hooks: this is called a bob. The steersman paddles softly, and proceeds slowly along shore, keeping the boat parallel to it, at a distance just sufficient to admit the fisherman to reach the edge of the floating weeds along shore: he now ingeniously swings the bob backwards and forwards, just above the surface, and sometimes tips the water with it; when the unfortunate cheated trout instantly springs from under the weeds, and seizes the supposed prey. Thus he is caught without a possibility of escape, unless he break the hooks, line, or rod, which he, however, sometime does by dint of strength; but, to prevent this, the fisherman used to the sport is careful not to raise the reed suddenly up, but jerks it instantly backwards, then steadily drags the sturdy reluctant fish to the side of the < Page 109 canoe, and with a sudden upright jerk brings him into it.         THE head of this fish makes about one third of his length, and consequently the mouth is very large: birds, fish, frogs, and even serpents, are frequently found in its stomach. THE trout is of lead colour, inclining to a deep blue, and marked with transverse waved lists, of a deep slate colour, and when fully grown, has a cast of red, or brick colour. The fins, with the tail, which is large, and beautifully formed, are of a light reddish purple, or flesh colour, the whole body is covered with large scales. But what is most singular, this fish is remarkably ravenous; nothing living, that he can seize upon, escapes his jaws, and the opening and extending of the branchiostega, at the moment he rises to the surface to seize his prey, discovering his bright red gills, through the transparent waters, give him a very terible appearance. Indeed it may be observed, that all fish of prey have this opening and covering of the gills very large, in order to discharge the great quantity of water, which they take in at their mouth, when they strike at their prey. This fish is nearly cuniform, the body tapering gradually from the breast to the tail, and lightly compressed on each side. They frequently weigh fifteen, twenty and thirty pounds, and are delicious food. …quoted from Travels Through North & South Carolina, Georgia, East & West Florida, the Cherokee Country, the Extensive Territories of the Muscogulges, or Creek Confederacy, and the Country of the Chactaws; Containing An Account of the Soil and Natural Productions of Those Regions, Together with Observations on the Manners of the Indians. Embellished with Copper-Plates (spine) Bartram’s Travels William Bartram xxxiv, 522 p., ill. PHILADELPHIA: PRINTED BY JAMES & JOHNSON. M, DCC, XCI. Call number VC917 B29 (North Carolina Collection, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/bartram/bartram.html         The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-CH digitization project, Documenting the American South.

Response:

Question:

I’d appreciate anyone’s suggestions/experience with 35mm water resistant point and shoot cameras with a zoom lens. I’m looking to use it while canoeing/flyfishing/hiking.  My primary concerns are very good pictures and good durability for less than $325.  Thanks for any and all input. John * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I’d appreciate anyone’s suggestions/experience with 35mm water resistant point and shoot cameras with a zoom lens. I’m looking to use it while canoeing/flyfishing/hiking.  My primary concerns are very good pictures and good durability for less than $325.  Thanks for any and all input.

I really, really like my Pentax IQ Zoom 90 WR. Unfortunately, it has been discontinued for a few months now. If you can find one used, I’d recommend it. Otherwise I would certainly check out its replacement, the Pentax Zoom 105 WR. ER If you aren’t spamming, avoid the JUNKTRAP

Response:

I’d appreciate anyone’s suggestions/experience with 35mm water resistant point and shoot cameras with a zoom lens.

Although APS, the Minolta Vectis S-1 is splashproof.  I have the Minolta   22-80 which is the 35mm equivalent of 28-100

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I read a review of the 105 WR that was quite favorable.  I don’t recall the source, but it’s probably worth checking out. Mike

Response:

I bought a Yashica T4 Super for a weeklong canoe trip. It has a Carl Zeiss 35mm F3.5 lens. It takes excellent pics. (Now if I could only take excellent pics!) I chose it over a zoom because of the optics. I took about 10 rolls of pics, mostly from shore. And never once did I miss having a zoom. I guess I "framed with my paddle". As to its water resistance, I took it night snow skiing and had it in my coat pocket along with an orange juice box. During a nasty fall, the OJ box split. At first I thought I had busted a kidney, as did several girls who just pointed and laughed at the bright yellow streak next to me in the snow. (Under the lights the OJ looked yellow). It was not until weeks later that I realizied that I had baptized the camera in juice. I had taken several more rolls of pics that were unaffected by the spill. I put 2 and 2 together when the on/off switch was hard to move and the lens did not come out. So I held the camera under warm running water, taking it out every now and then to move the switch back and forth. After a minute or two, the stickiness was gone. After towelling off the camera, I cleaned the lens. Not one problem ever happened with it. This camera is not waterproof as the Pentax WR zooms are. I did not feel that I needed a waterproof camera. I just carried it in a small waterproof bag  along with my film, mini tripod, extra glasses, bug repellent, … My only complaint is that it takes a picture after I press the shutter button, not when I press it. I have gotten used to this but it was very disconcerting that it does not behave like a 35mm SLR. I have heard that this is true of most P&S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’d appreciate anyone’s suggestions/experience with 35mm water resistant point and shoot cameras with a zoom lens. I’m looking to use it while canoeing/flyfishing/hiking.  My primary concerns are very good pictures and good durability for less than $325.  Thanks for any and all input. I really, really like my Pentax IQ Zoom 90 WR. Unfortunately, it has been discontinued for a few months now. If you can find one used, I’d recommend it. Otherwise I would certainly check out its replacement, the Pentax Zoom 105 WR. ER If you aren’t spamming, avoid the JUNKTRAP

Response:

I’d appreciate anyone’s suggestions/experience with 35mm water resistant point and shoot cameras with a zoom lens. I’m looking to use it while canoeing/flyfishing/hiking.  My primary concerns are very good pictures and good durability for less than $325.  Thanks for any and all input.

John, why not to use something like Yashica T5 or if you want zoom Fuji DL super mini zoom and ewa-marine plastic bag U-AM or U-AMZ http://www.ewa-marine.de/datenbl.htm This seems like a good solution. –Yuri Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Pentax Zoom 90WR I bought 4 or 5 point and shoot cameras for my wife and shot 1 roll of print film with each. This was 2 years ago! I ended up buying Pentax Zoom 90WR which is waterresistant, they claim you can drop it in a bucket of water. It takes great photos and they are very sharp. Unfortunately it it now obsolete, but I suggest you try out whatever has replaced it. Buy it, shoot a roll and if you don’t like it take it back! Steelhead (As in the Rainbow!)

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The Canon zoom PS cameras have a muddy viewfinder.  Go with the Olympus, either the cool-looking LT 105 or the Stylus zoom 115.  If you don’t need a zoom, the Yashica T4 super is excellent. -DK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Smith) writes: I bought a Yashica T4 Super for a weeklong canoe trip. It has a Carl Zeiss 35mm F3.5 lens. It takes excellent pics. (Now if I could only take excellent pics!) I chose it over a zoom because of the optics. I took about 10 rolls of pics, mostly from shore. And never once did I miss having a zoom. I guess I "framed with my paddle". But this person was asking for a P&S _zoom_. If he would ask which a zoom or a fixed then your reply would make more sense. I would suggest the Olympus zoom 140 if the Canon Z135 is too bulky. Although the Canon Z135 (not the 115) is the best, IMHO.  The Z135 is better than the Z115 since the flash furter away from the lens. Think about it. cheers, S.

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writes: I bought a Yashica T4 Super for a weeklong canoe trip. It has a Carl Zeiss 35mm F3.5 lens. It takes excellent pics. (Now if I could only take excellent pics!) I chose it over a zoom because of the optics. I took about 10 rolls of pics, mostly from shore. And never once did I miss having a zoom. I guess I "framed with my paddle".

But this person was asking for a P&S _zoom_. If he would ask which a zoom or a fixed then your reply would make more sense.   I would suggest the Olympus zoom 140 if the Canon Z135 is too bulky. Although the Canon Z135 (not the 115) is the best, IMHO.  The Z135 is better than the Z115 since the flash furter away from the lens. Think about it. cheers, S.

Response:

w/zoom? The Canon zoom PS cameras have a muddy viewfinder.  Go with the Olympus, either the cool-looking LT 105 or the Stylus zoom 115.  If you don’t need a zoom, the Yashica T4 super is excellent. -DK

Have you ever shot B&W with the T-4 and made prints up to 16×20? What did they look like? I have an old carry around Nikon 35AF P&S that produces superb 11×14’s and good 16×20’s. Can the T-4 do the same? If so, I might just buy one. Arthur Kramer Las Vegas NV

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Just stay away from Minolta WeatherMatic!  I bought one.  Didn’t use it right away.  Following summer put six rolls of film through it.  $85 repair.  Could get no response or help from Minolta.  Took it out.  First roll of film and it wasn’t working again.  Paid $235 for it.  Gave it to my son to take apart to see how it worked … he was about ten!  I just couldn’t face dealing with a black wall.  Talked with local camera store who said he had dozens returned for defects and "throwing it away" was the best thing I ever did with it. I deal with a lot of vendors as a computer professional and computer/photography amateur, but Minolta was just a black hole!  Don’t send me suggestions … I’m pure Nikon now. Dwight

Response:

Question:

I’m going to be in Nashville from this Friday the 12th untill the following Wendsday the 17th.  I am wondering if anyone knows some good fly fishing spots around the area where I can get a good days fishing in. Thanks in Advance, Ryan Nobrega

Response:

Hi Ryan, When you get there check with Cumberland Transit Fly Shop at 321-4069.

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Question:

Try http://www.four11.com. — Walter K. Prescott  100% Disabled/Retired U.S. Army Veteran "Always treat everyone the same way you wish to be treated." http://www.atlcon.net & http://www.mirabilis.com/950276 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone have the phone number / address for Tom Mann’s lures? I can’t find it anywhere, even http://www.tommann.com. Darren King — BreakPoint Outdoors Web Site: http://www.netaccess.on.ca/~breakpt Hello Darren, Here’s the info you requested. Mann’s Bait Company 604 State Docks Road Eufaula, AL  36027 334-687-5716 Incidentally, there is no connection between Tom Mann and Mann’s Bait Company.  That’s why you couldn’t find any info at Tom’s site. Athough he was the founder of Mann’s Bait Company back in the 60’s, he sold his interest in the company many years ago.   Hope the info helps. Best Regards,          Trent Roberson            Rx F Fish  For Your Good Health, Fly Fish URL=http://www.xnet.com/~rxffish

Response:

Anyone have the phone number / address for Tom Mann’s lures? I can’t find it anywhere, even http://www.tommann.com. Darren King — BreakPoint Outdoors Web Site: http://www.netaccess.on.ca/~breakpt

Response:

Anyone have the phone number / address for Tom Mann’s lures? I can’t find it anywhere, even http://www.tommann.com. Darren King — BreakPoint Outdoors Web Site: http://www.netaccess.on.ca/~breakpt

Hello Darren, Here’s the info you requested. Mann’s Bait Company 604 State Docks Road Eufaula, AL  36027 334-687-5716 Incidentally, there is no connection between Tom Mann and Mann’s Bait Company.  That’s why you couldn’t find any info at Tom’s site. Athough he was the founder of Mann’s Bait Company back in the 60’s, he sold his interest in the company many years ago.   Hope the info helps. Best Regards,          Trent Roberson            Rx F Fish  For Your Good Health, Fly Fish URL=http://www.xnet.com/~rxffish

Response:

Question:

"Living toys" are kept in aquariums.  Wild game fish thrive in the rivers, lakes, estuaries and oceans of the world.  Responsible human management of those fisheries includes a number of strategies, each intended to enhance a particular population of game.  Among those strategies is mandated C&R. Woods Hole, MA   USA

IMHO, C&R may be an extremely effective management tool but it is not the only, or most likely the best, way to protect/enhance the population.  The best way would not include fishing.  Unless there are too many fish, fishing will not help the population, C&R or C&K. Netting overpopulated areas would serve if there are too many fish.  On the plus side, C&R lets fishermen catch as many fish as they want.  C&R is the best management tool to protect the population and let anglers catch unlimited amounts of fish.  Since no sane person would ban fishing, and anglers would rather catch more instead of less fish C&R is thriving. But…C&R is disrespectful to fish.  No one can say catching a fish for your own enjoyment, with no intention of using it, is respectful to fish. Do fish deserve respect? Regards, Nicolo

Response:

IMHO, C&R may be an extremely effective management tool but it is not the only, or most likely the best, way to protect/enhance the population.  The best way would not include fishing.  Unless there are too many fish, fishing will not help the population, C&R or C&K.

I see what you mean, but my view is that fishing often _can_ help the population, in the following manner: when anglers have access to a thriving fishery, they naturally want to preserve and protect it.  They become advocates for the fishery against all sorts of threats, such as pollution, or obstacles to anadromous fish passage.  Anglers start to realize that spawning sites and juvenile habitat need to be protected, in order to have lots of adult fish to catch.  And they start to see that overfishing, whether by sportsmen or commercial fishermen, will damage the good things that they now enjoy. The best way to protect/enhance a fish population would indeed not include fishing, _IF_ fishing were the only impact on the fish population.  But there are typically many diverse impacts which must be addressed. Responsible anglers often contribute far more to a fishery through advocacy than they take from the fishery in dead fish.  When the net result of angler-based advocacy is positive, then fishing truly helps the population.  Where there is no advocacy… when no one cares enough about what happens to a fish population… then all too often various environmental impacts trigger a severe decline in the population. But…C&R is disrespectful to fish.  No one can say catching a fish for your own enjoyment, with no intention of using it, is respectful to fish.

Well, I can say it.  Indeed, I am glad to say that I often have no intention of "using" a fish.  I am not always a consumer.  I try to be a contributor.  There are some places in the world which have wild fish, instead of stagnant pools, because I and others were advocates for those fisheries.  When I catch one of these fish, and release it unharmed… then I do show respect, both for wild fish and for the efforts of those who protected the resource. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -This, however, is not what torments me…mortality studies and techniques for releasing fish are well published and taught in the first day of the Orvis brainwashing, er uh, flyfishing programs. What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear.  Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar.  The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild.   Shouldn’t we ? TimW

I don’t think the fish are ever a willing participant, Tim, but to me it is not necessarily the actual killing of the fish that differentiates the sport from golf. Rather, it’s the deception and following struggle, which certainly (at least from the fish’ view) bears the element of life and death regardless of whether I intend to keep and kill or not. There are, though, points at which for me the sport loses something. If the fish were to lose the fight/flight instinct and just passively swim to the bank in surrender, this would reduce the sport to more of a casting contest, and I would not like this. If we never killed a fish and wound up with a stunted, gullible population it would diminish my enjoyment. This is why I gave up fishing freestone headwaters where a 4" brookie will pound anything that hits the water (BTW they’re great eating!). Kept me full while camping, but was not overly challenging. If our behavior were to actually break the spirit of the fish we catch, then I would say ‘that’s enough’. That said, I’ve never seen a fish with a broken spirit. I grew up on and spent most of my life fishing the ocean, where pretty much everything you catch is migratory. It’s not like a pond where trout can almost become tame, every minute of these fish’s life is a fight for survival. I with my fly rod am just one more thing it has to deal with. A mackerel may bite me off today and wind up tuna chow in Fundy next month. So I see no real danger of breeding out the fight or flight instinct in this environment, at least as I have experienced it. What was wild still is. And yes, it is the element of life and death that keeps it wild, but the perspective that does so is the fish’s, not ours. So for me to believe that C&Ring is disrespect- ful I have to believe that the schoolie striper I hook is consciously thinking "Oh no problem this is a size one clouser. This guy will just release me anyway, ho hum." I think highly of stripers, but can’t stretch it that far. See Ya,                                                 jc

Response:

Everyone surely has an opinion about this, and here’s mine: If you never actually "kill" a fish (or at least tell yourself you don’t) then do you truly understand what you’re doing when you fish?   Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This, however, is not what torments me…mortality studies and techniques for releasing fish are well published and taught in the first day of the Orvis brainwashing, er uh, flyfishing programs. What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear.  Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar.  The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ROFF, TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish. I’ve heard conflicting messages about releasing trout. For example, gently move the fish back and forth in the water to help revive it. After spending a day with a guide on the South Platee this year he said moving the fish back and forth can spook it and cause it to bolt from your grasp, only to travel just out of reach and turn belly up. Jeff Anderson BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???

Hi Jeff, I usually try to release the fish while it’s still in the water.  The Ketchum Release tool is fairly good for that or make a release tool of your own out of a short piece of 1/2" dowel and a coffee cup hook.   Either way the fish is not removed from the water.  If I get into a really big fish I get a couple of runs out of it and rather than stress the fish landing it I’ll throw a roll cast or two at it and often they will be release none the worse for the wear. Regarding the slot limit question:  If I catch a fish, it’s damaged, and is within the slot limit, I release it — it’s the law.  One of the things the guides I work with have started doing is avoid fishing with hook larger than #4.  The larger hooks just cause too much damage, especially on smaller fish. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

There is no way around harming a fish.  Any aquarist knows how sensitive the fishes are with regards to stress induced by fright, temperature extremes, etc.  They don’t always die right away, if at all, but they often will develop problems if handled poorly. Thus, out of respect, we do not ‘tap’ on the glass of an aquarium, out of respect.  Even though it is a lot of fun and does not kill the fish.  Do we still agree ?

A fisheries biologist and ecologist, for whom I’ve worked, has studied the destruction of riverine habitat in Brazil, from which a lot of the tropical fish that we keep in aquariums have been imported.  These fish are torn from their native habitat, and species which occupy differing ecological niches are thrown together haphazardly in aquaria, merely to please human eyes.  I think I could build a case to call these activities "C&I" – Catch and Imprison.  And if I wanted to be tiresome I could lecture at great length upon the subject. Meanwhile, I practice C&R – catch and release.  Like everyone else I’ve met who practices C&R, I occasionally kill and eat a few fish too, though never on mandated C&R waters.  As I’ve said before, C&R is a management tool which works extremely well to preserve high-quality angling on _some_ waters with _some_ species.  Some fisheries work well with total catch and release in a portion of a river, such as the little river on which I and others carried out a twenty-year environmental restoration ( This was private, volunteer effort and expense to enhance public water.  We asked for nothing else from state government than permits to work in-stream, and a biologist to check our work to ensure that we did no harm.  Thirteen years into the project, we asked for and received one more thing… C&R status for 1.25 miles of river that we thoroughly restored.  It’s C&K above and below).  Other fisheries work well with a mixture of mandated C&R and allowed C&K.  I cite the provincial management of the Atlantic salmon fishery in New Brunswick, Canada, as a good example of this.  Still other fisheries, such as a local, shallow pond where bluegills are the top predator, would almost certainly be well-managed as complete C&K fisheries.  All three fisheries cited are wild fisheries.  They need to managed differently to ensure healthy, wild populations of game fish.  When anglers perceive that they have a stake in the success of the fishery (whether C&R or C&K), some of them become advocates to protect and enhance it.  Thus the continuity of wild fisheries can be enhanced by responsible sportmen’s participation. It is our duty to treat the beasts with dignity and respect them for what they are, animals.  With a distinct place and purpose on the food chain.  Not living toys. We do not kick dogs, we do not chase deer to exhaustion and we should not practice pure C&R on a wild population of fish.

"Living toys" are kept in aquariums.  Wild game fish thrive in the rivers, lakes, estuaries and oceans of the world.  Responsible human management of those fisheries includes a number of strategies, each intended to enhance a particular population of game.  Among those strategies is mandated C&R. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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[some deleted] although one of the things I have always enjoyed about fishing over hunting is that you _can_ put them back. Try rubber tipped arrows on large game ! What a Gas !!!! TimW Nice try but not relevant.

Uh, please…indulge me… uh, why isn’t it relevent ? Let’s say that in 1966 as a hunting management strategy, "shoot and release" was thought up by some simpleton in F&G.  Turns out, shooting rubber tipped arrows at big game is one HELL of a lot of fun AND allowed those big bucks to sow their seeds for another year.  Would this not be very close to C&R ? TimW

Response:

Let’s say that in 1966 as a hunting management strategy, "shoot and release" was thought up by some simpleton in F&G.  Turns out, shooting rubber tipped arrows at big game is one HELL of a lot of fun AND allowed those big bucks to sow their seeds for another year.  Would this not be very close to C&R ?

Sure, but I thought your point was that one shouldn’t fish unless they wanted to eat the fish. When I hunt I plan on eating what I shoot but that’s not always the case when I fish (not that I shoot fish of course<g). If we fish only for food they why bother with fly fishing, why not just use nets? Charlie…

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[some deleted] although one of the things I have always enjoyed about fishing over hunting is that you _can_ put them back.

Try rubber tipped arrows on large game ! What a Gas !!!! TimW

Response:

[some deleted] although one of the things I have always enjoyed about fishing over hunting is that you _can_ put them back. Try rubber tipped arrows on large game ! What a Gas !!!! TimW

Nice try but not relevant. Charlie…

Response:

I assert my right to hunt and fish; I assert my right to kill or release; I only accept the absolute rule that this is done with respect for the population (which may mean mandatory C&R, catch limits, slot limits, or other management tools) and other sportsmen.

Well said. I saw a bumper sticker the other day: "BE AN ETHICAL SPORTSMAN, PRACTICE C&R" *this* dogma causes my dogma. TimW

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We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW

First off Lon,  what a great post.  I really appreciate the effort to help me quantify somehow the ethics of harassing, hurting and killing a wild animal for pleasure only.  You did an extremely admirable job.  Unfortunately, for me, I have heard these arguments in the past.  I have deleted some text, but hope that I preserved the context… I am not terribly familiar with aboriginal animism, but if I’m not mistaken, your position sounds kind of similar to the ethical view of animistic hunter cultures (note that I’m not saying that’s what it is or how it was derived). The idea that *not* killing the animal you pursue disrespects it, though I grasp the premise, still bewilders me.

To chase an animal, say a deer, to exhaustion on snowmobile purely for fun would be disrespectful of the animal.  Do we agree ?  To stalk the same deer and kill it for food and use of the hide would be to place it in its intended role in the food chain and give it the respect it deserves.  Do we still agree ?  That is, the deer is an animal and part of the food chain. If you have regard and respect for it (which I certainly believe I do), have gone out of your way not to intentionally harm it (i.e. retrieved as quickly as possible, used barbless hooks, released w/o touching, etc.), I hold that you have treated the animal with as much dignity and respect as possible for sport quarry.

There is no way around harming a fish.  Any aquarist knows how sensitive the fishes are with regards to stress induced by fright, temperature extremes, etc.  They don’t always die right away, if at all, but they often will develop problems if handled poorly. Thus, out of respect, we do not ‘tap’ on the glass of an aquarium, out of respect.  Even though it is a lot of fun and does not kill the fish.  Do we still agree ? Your viewpoint (I think) holds that the sport should not exist as sport only, that only the harvesting activity morally justifies one’s doing it. Sounds Native American (one strain of the animism that I noted) to me.

Well, that’s where I make my home my good friend.  And I don’t quickly dismiss the ethics of a society that has dwelled here for more than 10000 years before christ.  So, I guess that I do agree with you.  Further I am ashamed at the actions of my ancestors for forcing the natives off the land as further evidence that we as a race can be pretty big dickheads. Emminent domain, my ass, but I digress.   I would buy your view if we were living in a hunter / gatherer culture. Buying it otherwise I believe would mean that *everyone* who fished because they liked the sport but who was not doing it to put meat on the table should stop and do something else (like golfing) instead.

Yes, I am saying that.  A fisherman should like to and eat fish.  I feel that this is a basic tenet of the sport.   We are diverging our opinions here.  I posted the other day, "What will man’s interaction with nature become when all the world is a park ?". I am frightened by this thought, aren’t you ?  It is not a world that I even want to live in nor would I wish it on my children or thiers.  When I kill a wild animal for food, I feel connected with the world.  I am part of the food chain and there is no point denying that.  When we play with the fishes for sport, we do deny them their role on the food chain.   In summary, a) I *think* I get your point, Tim, and b) I think it’s an ethical (life, world) view to hold, if you are a participant in a hunter / gatherer culture, one which would in that context define you and bind you to the wheel of life.

Yes, exactly our ideas merge again here. My points are: 1) that for all it’s coherence in a hunter / gatherer culture, it doesn’t make much sense to me (i.e. seems out of context) in a modern, polyglot, industrialized society; and 2) that even accepting your notion that the animal is being disrespected to some degree by being used as the object of sport only in C&R fishing, C&R can justified if by nothing else by the attendant preserving effect on the resource. It is simply a fact that there are too many fishers for existing fisheries.

There are not too many fishers for existing fisheries.  This is the big lie.  That is like saying there are too many hunters for the existing deer or bear population. No, we limit the hunters and place seasons and restrictions on the game as needed to preserve the numbers of animals available and to keep the herds healthy and viable.   We are the humans.  I beleive that we are different then the beasts and I believe that we have been tasked as the caretakers of the earth, second only to the humbling forces of nature and time.  It is our duty to treat the beasts with dignity and respect them for what they are, animals.  With a distinct place and purpose on the food chain.  Not living toys. We do not kick dogs, we do not chase deer to exhaustion and we should not practice pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This last sentence is key.  I feel that size/slot restrictions necessitating the release of too small or too large of a fish for the betterment of the fishery is an acceptable comprimise.  Here is your chance to show respect… You can say, "I am sorry to have caught you little fish, I hope that you live" or "Go forth and multiply you beautiful animal, I do not want to eat your flesh". I can only leave this thought with the simple question that has no simple answer.. Why do we not cast our lines for other orders and families of animals.   Lizards, snakes, chipmunks and squirrels, birds and bats, otters and ferrets. Why do we not ‘trap and release’ the larger animals if it is ok to do it with the fishes ? Clearly to hunt and kill all of the above is in my viewpoint of acceptable but I can not and will not tolerate wanton harassment of an animal just for fun. Hegel’s notion of philosophical argument and debate talked about the stages of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. For the few mos. that I’ve followed this debate in ROFF, I have not yet seen how it will ever get to the ’synthesis’ stage. There just seems to be no common ground.

I can never remember names or facts, but one discussion about the development of ethics discusses the possibility that doing something ‘because everyone else does’ is lower on the ethical scale then doing something ‘because it is universally accepted as right’. I can not simply subscribe to the notion that harassing and harming an animal for fun is right.  Only that it seems like a lot of people are doing it. But, hey! Talking about it can be fun, right?

Not only fun, but the way to the truth…please see.. http://www.ethics.ubc.ca/~chrismac/moral.decision.html Tight lines and, respective to forks, light tines –

Same to you my friend, TimW Fishing less these days and enjoying it more than I ever thought possible.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do??? Did you know that if you step on the middle of a 15 inch fish, it easily distorts longitudinally that additional inch. Just kidding men. Back to sports… TimW Is that any way to show the fish respect?!?  Shame on you. Tsk Tsk tsk

NO ! It’s a way to make it an inch longer so my truck doesn’t get seized by the game warden that isn’t ever there, except when I’m caryying a fish 1/32 inch shy of being legal back to it.  Never stretch a fish while it is still alive, that would be cruel and disrespectful. TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish. This, however, is not what torments me…mortality studies and techniques for releasing fish are well published and taught in the first day of the Orvis brainwashing, er uh, flyfishing programs. What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear.  Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar.  The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW

No doubt the philosophical argument will continue for decades (or at least as long as there are any rivers left which will support fish). Fishing is a blood sport, and the element of life and death must be maintained, but not necessarily exclusively. The mere fact that fish which have caught and properly released will come back on the feed in short order convinces me that they are not irreparably harmed by the process. This is also true in the long term, next day, week, month, or year. C&R in and of itself shows no respect for the fish, the only respect is shown when the release is done properly. For example, a fish removed from the hook and then thrown into the water is being shown no respect, it is being treated like an old boot. We have the power of life and death over animals for which we hunt or fish. An ethical hunter may sight in on a small, but legal, deer and then choose not to shoot it, the equivalent to C&R (properly done). Instilling fear in a wild animal (if the concept even exists in fish–with which I do not agree) occurs every time we walk about. Spook a deer, a duck, a partridge, and you have, by your choice to walk in the woods, paddle on a lake, or canoe a river, caused an animal to feel fear. I assert my right to hunt and fish; I assert my right to kill or release; I only accept the absolute rule that this is done with respect for the population (which may mean mandatory C&R, catch limits, slot limits, or other management tools) and other sportsmen. Paul Marriner

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<snip Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf.

<snip In N.Georgia there are a number of stocked streams where a lot of people just follow the trucks around and ‘harvest’ fish to fill their freezers. Is this more sporting than C&R? I don’t really know. I do know some people who fish that don’t eat fish. This always seemed pointless to me until I went fishing for bones, permit and tarpon, which I don’t eat. I guess I just enjoy being there (fishing) too much to worry about the finer points, although one of the things I have always enjoyed about fishing over hunting is that you _can_ put them back. Not much of an answer, but my $.02 anyway. Charlie…

Response:

If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do??? Did you know that if you step on the middle of a 15 inch fish, it easily distorts longitudinally that additional inch. Just kidding men.   Back to sports… TimW

Is that any way to show the fish respect?!?  Shame on you. Tsk Tsk tsk Mike

Response:

We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW

I am not terribly familiar with aboriginal animism, but if I’m not mistaken, your position sounds kind of similar to the ethical view of animistic hunter cultures (note that I’m not saying that’s what it is or how it was derived). The idea that *not* killing the animal you pursue disrespects it, though I grasp the premise, still bewilders me. If you have regard and respect for it (which I certainly believe I do), have gone out of your way not to intentionally harm it (i.e. retrieved as quickly as possible, used barbless hooks, released w/o touching, etc.), I hold that you have treated the animal with as much dignity and respect as possible for sport quarry. Your viewpoint (I think) holds that the sport should not exist as sport only, that only the harvesting activity morally justifies one’s doing it. Sounds Native American (one strain of the animism that I noted) to me. I would buy your view if we were living in a hunter / gatherer culture. Buying it otherwise I believe would mean that *everyone* who fished because they liked the sport but who was not doing it to put meat on the table should stop and do something else (like golfing) instead. In summary, a) I *think* I get your point, Tim, and b) I think it’s an ethical (life, world) view to hold, if you are a participant in a hunter / gatherer culture, one which would in that context define you and bind you to the wheel of life. My points are: 1) that for all it’s coherence in a hunter / gatherer culture, it doesn’t make much sense to me (i.e. seems out of context) in a modern, polyglot, industrialized society; and 2) that even accepting your notion that the animal is being disrespected to some degree by being used as the object of sport only in C&R fishing, C&R can justified if by nothing else by the attendant preserving effect on the resource. It is simply a fact that there are too many fishers for existing fisheries. Hegel’s notion of philosophical argument and debate talked about the stages of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. For the few mos. that I’ve followed this debate in ROFF, I have not yet seen how it will ever get to the ’synthesis’ stage. There just seems to be no common ground. But, hey! Talking about it can be fun, right? Tight lines and, respective to forks, light tines – Lon Lon Hall Applied Intelligence Group, Inc. Fly Fisher and Cooking Enthusiast "Eat the rich. The poor are tough and stringy."

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tim Walker writes: What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear.  Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar.  The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild.   Shouldn’t we ? TimW

Tim, this is starting to haunt me.  I think recognizing and appreciating that as hunters and fishermen we are involved in a dance of life and death is essential to respect the creatures we hunt and fish for. Many flyfishermen turn up their noses at bait guys….and think they are less refined and care less for their quarry than we the elite do.  What a crock!!!  A few years ago I was fishing some (well known) lakes during iceout in Montana.  Huge rainbows come in for a false spawn along the shore.  I remember this group of 4 guys with two guide s whooping and hollering catching fish….picking them up out of the water and holding them for minutes at a time while photos were taken……there were dead fish in the water all along the area they had been……After every photo they carefully released their quarry……. I’m afraid though that whether one fishes with bait or a fly, whether one C&R’s or knocks everything on the head,  you will always have slobs.  Some slobs wear Orvis and stomach pump every fish they catch…. other slobs use worms.  The best fisherman I know is a (fairly well to do) friend of mine here in southern Wisconsin.  He doesn’t know a Baetis from a Stonefly.  His favorite "fly"?  Chub Tails.  He’s a god with a lightweight spinning outfit.  Gary Borger wouldn’t stand a chance against him.  When he catches a fish he gets it in quick….if he thinks he hurt it…he keeps it…..If the fish isn’t hurt it usually goes back in……he quits fishing when he’s got enough for dinner for he and his wife……he give a lot of money to wild life organizations….. I wish there were more like him…. jim bucklew madison, wisconsin

Response:

If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???

Did you know that if you step on the middle of a 15 inch fish, it easily distorts longitudinally that additional inch. Just kidding men.   Back to sports… TimW

Response:

ROFF, TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish. I’ve heard conflicting messages about releasing trout. For example, gently move the fish back and forth in the water to help revive it. After spending a day with a guide on the South Platee this year he said moving the fish back and forth can spook it and cause it to bolt from your grasp, only to travel just out of reach and turn belly up. Jeff Anderson BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???

Response:

If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do??? Did you know that if you step on the middle of a 15 inch fish, it easily distorts longitudinally that additional inch. Just kidding men. Back to sports… TimW

Did you see that? T-Bone’s karma just ran over his dogma. Mitch

Response:

ROFF, TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish.

- Use an appropriately sized leader/tippet so you can bring the fish in quickly – Use barbless hooks to minimize any handling of the fish to get the hook out – Gently cradle the fish while still in the water, and with a good pair of hemostats kept at the ready you can usually turn the hook out quite easily. If you *have* to handle the fish, try to roll it out of the water on its back – the fish will usually remain still – and quickly extract the hook. Remember that every second that the fish is out of the water is damaging it’s gill structure (especially true with rainbows) – If the fish is showing any signs of stress (especially if the water temps are above 65F and/or after any lengthy fight) continue to cradle the fish gently in calm water at least a couple of feet deep until it’s recovered enough to swim with strength. Don’t stick the fish face first into rapids – that could actually drown it – and shallow water appears to unnerve fish from my experience – so don’t try to revive them while standing in 6" of water). – There’s rarely if ever any need to "swish" or "pump" the fish in the water. This is usually more disorienting than helpful, and requires significantly greater handling of the fish (which negatively affects the slime and can cause damage to internal organs). – Observe the fish to determine if it’s working it’s gills steadily (should be quite obvious) and keep cradling the fish until it swims away on its own (should be a *determined* effort on the fish’s part – don’t let it just float away as it could well turtle and drown). Use gentle persuasion (just curl your hands a bit) to keep the fish with you until you’re reasonably certain that the fish really wants to move on, then let it swim out of your opened hands. I’ve heard conflicting messages about releasing trout. For example, gently move the fish back and forth in the water to help revive it. After spending a day with a guide on the South Platee this year he said moving the fish back and forth can spook it and cause it to bolt from your grasp, only to travel just out of reach and turn belly up.

I completely agree with the guide. BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???

The law is the law, and I’d have to let it go. If nothing else, you can be sure that it won’t be wasted. Either an osprey or heron or other bird will feed on it, or an otter or some other mammal will eat it, or the crawfish will enjoy it… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.       Alpha Server Engineering < < Parker Street Campus            Maynard, Massachusetts   < <        Charter Member of "Curmudgeons Unlimited"       < <<<<<<<<<<<< AMA 548313 <<<<<<<<<<<< Disclaimer: Opinion and content is mine alone, and unlikely             to be shared by my employer, etc…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ROFF, TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish. I’ve heard conflicting messages about releasing trout. For example, gently move the fish back and forth in the water to help revive it. After spending a day with a guide on the South Platee this year he said moving the fish back and forth can spook it and cause it to bolt from your grasp, only to travel just out of reach and turn belly up. Jeff Anderson BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???

I catch a lot of fish that need to be returned, as I fish for stripers and our minimum size is 36" (in Me. anyways). Having caught thousands of sub legal stripers I’d have to guess that well over 95% of them wind up lip hooked, or sometimes in the roof of the mouth (esp. w/clousers), but easy to release cleanly. Now and then one will take the hook very deep, and though I cut the line and release it I’m not as optimistic about its survival. Thing is, if it dies it will just change its place in the food chain, its meat feeding crabs, lobsters, minnows which in turn will feed other stripers, so I don’t worry about it. I’ve heard some guys, grousing about the high limits, complaining what a waste it is that they have to return this fish because ‘it swallowed the hook and is going to die anyway’. These people would like to take the fish home instead of ‘wasting’ it. The problem with this is, having fished often with these guys, they would always find a way to deeply hook a fish, thus subverting the slot limit. I’ve seen guys fishing cut herring lip hook and cleanly release 20 fish in a row, but if this loophole were available they would simply hold back a minute before setting the hook, gut hook them and ‘have’ to keep them to prevent waste. IMO you’d see a lot of bait guys carrying off schoolie bass in this case. Better to try your best to cut the line fast, revive the fish as best as possible, and at worst case let it feed other fish than give those who would cheat an open door.                                                 jc

Response:

TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish.

This, however, is not what torments me…mortality studies and techniques for releasing fish are well published and taught in the first day of the Orvis brainwashing, er uh, flyfishing programs. What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear.  Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar.  The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild.   Shouldn’t we ? TimW

Response:

BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???

Eat it. Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com./ "I’m the boss,so WHATEVER I say is OK"

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Question:

I’m planning a trip to the Yellowstone area in early September.  Does any one have advice on the best bets that time of year?  Any favorite places that you wouldn’t pass up if driving through the Park? Thanks for any help, Mike Fair

Response:

Mike, …..theres a lot of fishing in and around the park. Call Dan Baillys(sp?) in Livingston or any other Fly Fishing store to get advise with in a week of your trip.The rivers in Montana are still high due to the heavy snows. I own Hawley Mt. guest Ranch 25 miles north of Yellowstone on the Boulder River and we offer lodging and fishing but we have a 4 day min. You can call me 406-932-5791 and I will be happy to tell you about the conditions.                                                                       Bryant BBlewett

Response:

Mike, …..theres a lot of fishing in and around the park. Call Dan Baillys(sp?) in Livingston or any other Fly Fishing store to get advise with in a week of your trip.The rivers in Montana are still high due to the heavy snows. I own Hawley Mt. guest Ranch 25 miles north of Yellowstone on the Boulder River and we offer lodging and fishing but we have a 4 day min. You can call me 406-932-5791 and I will be happy to tell you about the conditions.                                                                      Bryant BBlewett

I was there a couple years ago for a week following Labor Day.  It turned out to be a great time to be in Yellowstone.  Most of the facilities were still open, but there weren’t very many people in the park.  Most of the  people who were there stayed on the busses or in the gift shops.  My wife and I were often by ourselves on the rivers or the hiking trails. I fished the Yellowstone in several spots, the Firehole and several of the creeks which feed into the Yellowstone.  The rivers were full of Cutthroat  I was recently recalling this trip and decided that I will return in September ‘97 to see if it was really as good as I remembered it. One warning, the park facilities only stay open for about two weeks after Labor Day, at which point everything by Old Faithful Lodge starts closing down. Please report back if you go this September. Tim Johnson

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Mike,  Everything should be fishing well at that time with the late runoff and all.  If the weather is warm the madison below Quake lake should be good for hoppers.  Many shops in West can supply flies and info. I hate driving in the park, but the uppper northeast area is a fav. spot.  Soda Butte creek towards Cooke City and even the Clarks Fork past Cooke City. Doug Stephens

Response:

Question:

Hikers need to understand something. Hiking boots are not made to walk in concrete. The soles are usually to soft. The concrete eats them up. If you plan to do some street hiking, go with a Timberland boot or somehing like that. If you really want a ‘hiking boot’, go with the Sundowners, Newbriers, or Skywalks. That way, WHEN you wear down the soles, you can get them resoled. Hal Why is misuse of a product the responsibility of the manufacturer? : My Vasque Hiker II’s lasted for 11 years and my Montagna’s for ten.  I : thought I’d never wear any other brand.  But the new styles seem to be : narrower and I’ve now switched to Raichle for fit.  I’d use caution : with the lightweight (leather/fabric) styles.  I bought a pair of : Vasque Clarion hiking shoes and destroyed them in six months on the : streets.

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Anyone have Vasque boots.  How are they made are they durable?  Thanks.

Vasque (at least a couple of years ago) had a policy that if the leather uppers start to come appart before the sole is completely worn, they would repair or replace the boots at no charge. I bought a pair of discontinued all leather Vasque boots at a rock bottom sale price of $75 several years ago.  When the sole began to seperate from one boot a few years later, I took them back to the store to get them repaired. (at the time I was unaware of the policy, loved the boots, and was willing pay to have the boots repaired).  The store sent the boots back to Vasque and a few weeks later the store called and said that Vasque was willing to give me a $130 credit (the original retail price of the boots) towards another pair.  I took them up on the offer and picked up a pair of $190 New Briers. My current roommate had the same experience with the same type of Vasque boots (I think they were "Libertys") and he used his credit to purchase Sundowners.

Response:

I waterproofed the leather on my Sundowners (which have been fantastic) just in case, but remember that even if the boot is waterproof, you can still get wet feet from water/snow coming in the top of the boot.  Don’t forget gaiters if you’re hiking in snow or in cold rain!  :)

Response:

Newbriers, or Skywalks. That way, WHEN you wear down the soles, you can get them resoled.

My mileage varried!  On my 4 pairs of Skywalks, Sundowners and Newbriers the soles all came off before I had a chance to wear them down!  Luckily they stood behind their product and replaced them.  I have since grown tired of that game and got a pair of Raichles with a real stitched sole. Good Luck,                 Whitney

Response:

Re: Vasque boots Over rocks, through streams, over snow, over dirt, over anything, my Vasque Sundowners have been _fantastic_.  I go up to people trying them on in stores and tell these total strangers that my boots have saved my life on winter hikes (since I have never gotten wet feet while wearing these boots, even on eight hour hikes through wet snow,etc.)  I have never gotten a blister, never slipped off a wet rock, never had any reason except to recommend these boots!!!  I say thumbs up!  Buy ‘em!

Response:

Anyone have Vasque boots.  How are they made are they durable?  Thanks.

I have had my Vasque Sundowners for three years now.  Great boots.  Sturdy one piece upper construction.  Solid yet flexible sole. They break in IMHO quickly.  They are my winter boots (NYC), hiking, and allaround  walking shoes from Oct-April.  I have gone flyfishing with them-a few hours in waist deep H2O- came homw cleaned them and waxed them a week later– they came back with great flexibility.  I just spent a week out west, Zion, Bryce, GC. One hike was in Bryce-900 feet down and up during a 3 hour hike, on some quite steep trails.  Never had a blister, actually since I bought them.  I can’t say enough about them. I will definitely buy a new pair, if they are still made when I need to do such- in about six years, after having been resoled a few times. That reminds me, I have to clean them again and get the red Utah dirt off of them. Hope this sways your decision. Brian CHarles — Brian Charles

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        I just bought a new pair of sundownsers also.  I got them for pretty cheap ($160 on sale).  They fit the best out of all the boots I tried.  I would recommend them also, just make sure to try on several brands and pick the ones that fit the best. (Look at http://io.datasys.swri.edu/PATC/startout.html for boot fitting info.)         Does anyone use snoseal on their sundowners?  Or do you trust the gortex? Josh — —  Senior M.E. Student & Computer Aided Engineering          – —      Laboratory Partner                                      – —  Engineering School – The hardest four years or the        – —                       easiest six years of your life.      –

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        Does anyone use snoseal on their sundowners?  Or do you trust the gortex?

I didn’t have time to seal them before I left on their first trip (I know, I know, I just didn’t *make* the time…), but they were quite waterproof nonetheless.  The leather did suffer quite a bit, however, from scuffing — I was in canyon country, very rocky.  Sealing them later has helped the scuffing, I think.  And I’m sure it has increased the waterproof-ness of the boots — but as I said, I never had any problems in the first place. Still, I think it would be irresponsible not to seal them.

Response:

Their cheaper models are for light hiking. Their midrange models are for heavy hiking/light backpacking. And their high end are for heavy backpacking. If you used the ‘cheap model’ for heavy use, I’m not at all surprised. If you told your sales person that you needed them for heavy use, he should have recommended a better pair. I work at an outdoor shop that sells Vasque and I know that any knowledgable salesperson should know the uses for the different levels of boots. Hal

: I hate to disagree with all the others, but I’ve had two pairs of Vasque : boots and neither lasted worth beans.  One was a cheap model and it wore : out VERY quickly (two months hard use).  I ascribed this to the cost of : the model — since I’d also heard Vasques were good — and bought an

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         I just bought a new pair of sundownsers also.  I got them for pretty cheap ($160 on sale).  They fit the best out of all the boots I tried.  I would recommend them also, just make sure to try on several brands and pick the ones that fit the best. (Look at http://io.datasys.swri.edu/PATC/startout.html for boot fitting info.)         Does anyone use snoseal on their sundowners?  Or do you trust the gortex? Josh — —  Senior M.E. Student & Computer Aided Engineering          – —      Laboratory Partner                                      – —  Engineering School – The hardest four years or the        – —                       easiest six years of your life.      –

I use Nikwax cleaner/conditioner and then apply a layer of Nikwax aqueous wax. The bottle says apply 2 or 3 layers for best results but one protects the leather well and provides for an easy clean up and retreat. The only time my feet have gotten wet in my Sundowners (4 years, great shape) is when the water is deeper than the boots are tall. Great boots! — Thanx for your interest. Tom "The thinner the air gets, the clearer my head gets."

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I like the Vasque boots I’ve owned better than any others.  My only negative observation:  in Scotland in December, walking on cold and very slippery beach stones in the western islands, I tended to slip more often than my friends, who wore boots with harder soles.  My Vasques now are the lightweight type with canvas plus leather uppers and fairly spongy soles, and the soles are now fairly smooth (I’ll need a new pair soon).  I found that in Scotland the cold made the soles a bit stiff and because they were smooth they were also slick. That’s not a complaint with Vasque boots, though!         Una Smith —         Una Smith               Department of Biology – OML                                 Yale University

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Anyone have Vasque boots.  How are they made are they durable?  Thanks.

I like them quite a bit.  They tend to run wide, which fits my feet.  My younger son has similar feet and he’s gone through a couple of pairs of Vasques over the years.  Mine have worn quite well.

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My Sundowners have never let me down.

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I wear my Vasque in the same Utah scree fields and don’t have much of a problem.  (All leather) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone have Vasque boots. Yes, lots of people do–otherwise they wouldn’t be in business How are they made I don’t know how they are made. Presumably there’s some sort of factory like set up… are they durable?   Yes, if you never hike in rocks while wearing them.  I was going to get a pair of their $180ish (I can’t remember the name) boots but everyone I talked to who also hikes reccomended against them.  In the scree fields of the Utah mountains (where I walk most of the time), Vasque got a definite thumbs down. your milage may vary, mike.

Response:

My Vasque Hiker II’s lasted for 11 years and my Montagna’s for ten.  I thought I’d never wear any other brand.  But the new styles seem to be narrower and I’ve now switched to Raichle for fit.  I’d use caution with the lightweight (leather/fabric) styles.  I bought a pair of Vasque Clarion hiking shoes and destroyed them in six months on the streets.

Response:

I hate to disagree with all the others, but I’ve had two pairs of Vasque boots and neither lasted worth beans.  One was a cheap model and it wore out VERY quickly (two months hard use).  I ascribed this to the cost of the model — since I’d also heard Vasques were good — and bought an expensive pair (all leather) at a local shop.  These lasted a bit longer, but I’ve certainly had MUCH better durability with other brands. The Vasques were, I must admit, totally hip and extremely comfortable though. — "Die young late in life!!!"                           http://www.unm.edu/~pflo

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        You say your boots `wore out’. What wore out, the leather         portion or the sole? If it was the leather I’m surprised; mine         have lasted many years and I wear them every day. If it was the         sole that wore down, why don’t you have them resoled? I know         the last time I had mine done (by Morin Boots, Evergreen CO.         fyi) I was able to choose between a Vasque sole or soles from         other big name manufactures. I decided to stay with Vasque         because the softer material seems to grip very well.                 Scott   Marquette Electronics    8200 West Tower Avenue    Milwaukee, WI 53223             As anyone here will tell you: I speak for myself.        

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Anyone have Vasque boots.  How are they made are they durable?  Thanks.

I love my Vasques – have used them for 4 years now – first in Nepal and now at home in Vermont.  Mine are the Gore-tex sided.  They were recommended by the outfitting shop over all the others they stocked and I have never been disappointed.  I have a friend who has the more expensive all-leather Vasques and he is equally satisfied.  One thing – I have always worn my boots with Thorlo Trekking-weight socks.  This may be key.

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I believe Vasque all-leather Gore-tex boots are issue for National Park Rangers.  I don’t wear them because they don’t fit me comfortably.   That’s the most important aspect of any boot.  I wear a comparable Asolo which is very comfortable for me.  When you buy boots, make very sure they fit properly.  Fit varies according to manufacturer.

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: Anyone have Vasque boots.  How are they made are they durable?  Thanks.         I bought my first pair of Vasque boots in 1990.  Since then I have put them through quite a bit of wear and tear and they still remain in good shape.  Since I bought those boots so many years ago, my feet have grown AND Vasque has redesigned their boots, so I thought it was time to get a new pair.  About a year ago I bought a pair of Vasque Clarion Impacts for $105. I love them!  My little brother still wears my first pair of Vasque Clarions.         In all, I hear that Vasque makes good boots, and I totally agree!  I have also heard good things about the Vasque Sundowners and the Gore-tex Clarion Impact. -David B. Buckingham dbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbd bdbdb  UofL, Speed Scientific School                                         TIP#1836                             David Bryan Buckingham                              (502)397-5496 (pager)  Triangle Fraternity                                         HSC Lab Consultant dbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbd bdbdb

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Anyone have Vasque boots.  How are they made are they durable?  Thanks.

Response:

Anyone have Vasque boots.

Yes, lots of people do–otherwise they wouldn’t be in business How are they made

I don’t know how they are made. Presumably there’s some sort of factory like set up… are they durable?  

Yes, if you never hike in rocks while wearing them.  I was going to get a pair of their $180ish (I can’t remember the name) boots but everyone I talked to who also hikes reccomended against them.  In the scree fields of the Utah mountains (where I walk most of the time), Vasque got a definite thumbs down. your milage may vary, mike.

Response:

Question:

I will be up in Sacramento California the first weekend of October and was wondering what the fishing possibilities are for that area.  I will only have like an afternoon available so I need a location close to city of Sacramento. Thanks for the information Jerome Fong 501 East Middlefield Road                       fax:    415 – 528-4159 Mountain View, CA 94043                         voice:  415 – 528-2847                                                 http://home.netscape.com/                              *_              /           O/    o       <xxxXxxxxxXxxx       ~    ~  ~     ~   ~   ( ((0)) )         ~        ~   ~               0       ~     ~      ~     ~    ~

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Jerome, try the Sacramento River or the American river.  Right in town….Dean Fairfield, CA….Good luck

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Suggest you contact Kiene’s Fly Shop in Sacramento for best bet info. They may suggest you try for half-pounder steelhead on the American right in Sacramento.  Puhta Creek above Winters toward Lake Berryessa is another possibility.  Go with Kiene’s suggestions!

Response:

I concur, there is always Putah Creek.  They were doing some work earlier this year so check with a fly shop on conditions.   — SGanz

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Question:

And you *KNOW* that I’m kidding, right ? (Witness winking mustacheoed smily poacher symbol).  Shoot man…sometimes I’ll tie a GLO-Bug AND a Streamer on…I’m no purist. That’s for damn sure.   Tim Walker  

: : Is it flyfishing? : : Nope, it’s poaching, pure and simple…;{) : Tim Walker : This is an interesting responce, because ole Tim recently wrote : to me, and asked for some samples of soft-bodied flies. I sent Tim a : fly or two, plus a few small samples of (soft foam) tying supplies. : So if the use of foam flies constitutes poaching, it seems to me, : Tim is either a poacher at heart, or he should come : clean now, and feed that foam I sent him to the shredder! : And beg forgiveness. You can’t have it both ways! : For what it’s worth–from my point of view–fishing with homemade : foam-bodied flies is good sport. IE not poaching. All I did was : invent a new fly that works like no other. Just because foam flies : are odor sponges that end up smelling like the last fish you caught, : doesn’t equate to evil in my view, it only means they work better. : —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Is it flyfishing? Nope, it’s poaching, pure and simple…;{) Tim Walker This is an interesting responce, because ole Tim recently wrote to me, and asked for some samples of soft-bodied flies. I sent Tim a fly or two, plus a few small samples of (soft foam) tying supplies. So if the use of foam flies constitutes poaching, it seems to me, Tim is either a poacher at heart, or he should come clean now, and feed that foam I sent him to the shredder! And beg forgiveness. You can’t have it both ways! For what it’s worth–from my point of view–fishing with homemade foam-bodied flies is good sport. IE not poaching. All I did was invent a new fly that works like no other. Just because foam flies are odor sponges that end up smelling like the last fish you caught, doesn’t equate to evil in my view, it only means they work better. —

Here is a meaningful way to get back on Tim.  You should send out a fly or two, plus all those soft foam tying supplies to everyone on this newsgroup.  Sounds good, huh?  my mailing address is …. steve

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: : Is it flyfishing? : : Nope, it’s poaching, pure and simple…;{) : : Tim Walker : Tim, can you elaborate a little. Sometime, I am not sure : that you are serious or joking. :   : Thi Nguyen Thi, Unless Tim starts out with "No Sh_t, this really happened", or some such jest disclaimer, you can usually assume he’s only joking.  Right Tim?  :-) Bryan

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writes: I guess it’s fly fisheng in that you are casting and the weight of line line, not the weight of the lure is making the cast. I use lots of foam poppers & synthetics in salt water and never question whether it’s fly fishing or not…..

I not so sure about this.  I’ve seen guys fishing for steelhead with leadcore shooting heads about five feet long followed by mono running line.  When they cast it is very similar to casting a spinning rig without the reel.  I’ll bet they could cast just as well with a bunch of split shot on the running line without the shooting head.  Might as well use a spinning reel and save all the tangles.

Response:

: Is it flyfishing? Nope, it’s poaching, pure and simple…;{) Tim Walker

This is an interesting responce, because ole Tim recently wrote to me, and asked for some samples of soft-bodied flies. I sent Tim a fly or two, plus a few small samples of (soft foam) tying supplies. So if the use of foam flies constitutes poaching, it seems to me, Tim is either a poacher at heart, or he should come clean now, and feed that foam I sent him to the shredder! And beg forgiveness. You can’t have it both ways! For what it’s worth–from my point of view–fishing with homemade foam-bodied flies is good sport. IE not poaching. All I did was invent a new fly that works like no other. Just because foam flies are odor sponges that end up smelling like the last fish you caught, doesn’t equate to evil in my view, it only means they work better. —

Response:

: : Is it flyfishing? : Nope, it’s poaching, pure and simple…;{) : Tim Walker : Tim, can you elaborate a little. Sometime, I am not sure : that you are serious or joking. : Thi Nguyen Ok Thi…my apologies…I’ll try to elaborate… …and Carlos looks up at the old man and asks "Was I *REALLY* Fly Fishing Don Juan ?" And Don looks at him, making sure that their eyes met and he says, "Carlos, do you think that you have been Fly Fishing ? and Carlos nods and the old man continues, "then certainly you must have been." And then the old man catches a glimpse  of the Pittendrigh Special and asks "Carlos, is this what you were using ?" and again Carlos nods and the Old man says "c’mon carlos, lets go get a corona and you can tell me again about the big brown" Excepted with permission by the author from : "The Teachings of Tim Walker, a Tacqui Way of Knowledge" Tim Walker

Response:

You still (mostly) tie the material on the hook. I have seen some ‘flies’ for salt water than don’t even do that, molded epoxy baitfish and such, and holding them up next to a spin- ning lure I fail to see much difference. I don’t like the idea much and don’t use these for pretty much the same reason I don’t buy a box of ‘Flying Lures’ and use those with my 9 weight.

… not to mention, a spinning rod would work better for tossing a Flying Lure. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

I guess it’s fly fisheng in that you are casting and the weight of line line, not the weight of the lure is making the cast. I use lots of foam poppers & synthetics in salt water and never question whether it’s fly fishing or not. The scent part, however, does disturb me. I’ve read several articles lately about people scenting flies like this, or in chum, or in bluefish blood, etc. To me the satisfaction in fly fishing comes from  fooling the fish into taking an artificial I tied and properly presented. Scenting a fly would somehow diminish, no eliminate that for me. It’s too close to putting a piece of bait on the end of my fly. Just my .02                                         john cloyd

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| | There is no question that the meaning of the word "fly" has taken | on a life of its own within the fly fishing community.  There was | a time when a fly was a lure which imitated a fly.  The technique | of propelling that fly developed into the sport we are familiar | with, but it is the technique, not the lure which we now rely on | to define our sport.  There are hundreds of "modern flies" which | would never be confused with an insect.  I think of | egg-sucking-leaches, moose turds, BC Bombers, green-butt skunks | and many others which any fly fisher would readily concede is | designed to catch fish using fly fishing gear.  Even the | venerable royal coachman is a lure-type fly.  Are we really being | true to the spirit of the sport in stretching the definition so | broadly?  Have we lost something of the sport in expanding the | definitions?   | | I ask only rhetorically, but am interested in the thoughts of | others on this subject.  Are there fly fishers among us so pure | as to fish only imitations of natural flies?  Is the sport a | different experience when we use lures with fly gear? | | — To me the old rules of fly fishing are kind of like 200 year old laws; in many principles they’re still applicable, but they have to grow with the times. If fly fishing stopped with the brown trout I could see using only dry flies that imitated insects. But horizons expand. Bluefish have no interest in even the most beautifully tied blue winged olive, nor I’d guess would a pike. So we have to invent flies that meet these new challenges. I think it’s the same spirit that led to lifelike imitations of mayflies or even the creation of some of the more gaudy salmon flies, however. You still (mostly) tie the material on the hook. I have seen some ‘flies’ for salt water than don’t even do that, molded epoxy baitfish and such, and holding them up next to a spin- ning lure I fail to see much difference. I don’t like the idea much and don’t use these for pretty much the same reason I don’t buy a box of ‘Flying Lures’ and use those with my 9 weight.                                         john cloyd

Response:

Can you post on how to tie?

Phew!     Sure got a lot of requests for tying intructions on this one. Foam streamers are new for me, and I haven’t settled on a best way to make them yet. Originally, I started making them as "tube" flies. I got some thin, flexible polyethelene tubing from the chemistry supplies window at my local Univ. Then I Roughed-up the outside of the tubing with sandpaper, and then glued a lump of lead-wraps at one end. Then Inserted a stainless steel wire, into the tubing, to make a temporary mandrel to work on, and then inserted the works into a (slit) blank of common (tan colored) packing foam. Then rolled the works up in nylon-net "spawn sack." (spawn sack is sold at bait shops for wrapping salmon eggs). Then tied off both ends with thread. Then used "GlueNWash" (a water based, flexible, water-proof cement sold at sewing stores) to glue on a Mataka-like wing. And that was that. To fish it, push the leader down the tube, and tie on a hook. But now it gets easier. To hell with the tube. Cut a foam blank. Slit one end just enough to receive a slightly flattened split shot. Roll the works up in spawn sack. Wrap the ends shut with thread. Set the thread with a drop of Flexament. Cut a length of 10lb test mono. Snell a hook in the middle. Then tie a second hook on, with improved clinch knot, to make a tandem hook arrangement, with hooks just far enuf apart to match the ends of the streamer. Use thread to lash the front hook to the front end of the foam-nylon-net lump. Just poke the rear hook thru the rear end of the foam. Glue on a Matuka wing or two. (Use fabric cement). Tie your leader directly to the eye of the front hook. They’re fast and easy to tie. And catch fish like crazy. Plus, you’ll get 2,3,4 bumps/hit! When was the last time that happened, while fly fishing? Or is it fly fishing? —

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I say your are definitely flyfishing. How do tie the fly ? Can you post it again please. Thank you, Thi Nguyen

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Can you post on how to tie?

Response:

Is it flyfishing? A few weeks ago I posted instructions for making soft-bodied streamers–made from open-cell foam wrapped in "spawn-sack" nylon netting. I’ve had some pretty remarkable fishing with these things. Because they’re soft, fish don’t spit them out right away, and even come back to hit them a second or third time, if you don’t get the fish hooked right away. Stranger yet, I couldn’t help noticing that foam streamers seem to work better as you use them. That is, after you catch the first fish, the second fish hits sooner than the first, and then the third fish even quicker yet. It finally dawned on me what was going on. So last weekend, while fishing the Yellowstone, I held a foam streamer under a fish I had in the net, and squeezed the foam body of the streamer as the fish dripped its slimy juices onto the fly. Sure enough, I caught another fish almost right away, and then another, etc. Foam streamers, it turns out, are odor sponges. And the more they smell, the better they work. That this is a hot-damn fly is not a question. Foam streamers are the deadliest flies I have ever tied and fished with. But is using them still fly fishing? And does it really matter anyway? ….just wondering….. ? —

Response:

There is no question that the meaning of the word "fly" has taken on a life of its own within the fly fishing community.  There was a time when a fly was a lure which imitated a fly.  The technique of propelling that fly developed into the sport we are familiar with, but it is the technique, not the lure which we now rely on to define our sport.  There are hundreds of "modern flies" which would never be confused with an insect.  I think of egg-sucking-leaches, moose turds, BC Bombers, green-butt skunks and many others which any fly fisher would readily concede is designed to catch fish using fly fishing gear.  Even the venerable royal coachman is a lure-type fly.  Are we really being true to the spirit of the sport in stretching the definition so broadly?  Have we lost something of the sport in expanding the definitions?   I ask only rhetorically, but am interested in the thoughts of others on this subject.  Are there fly fishers among us so pure as to fish only imitations of natural flies?  Is the sport a different experience when we use lures with fly gear? —

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To me, when ever you fish with a fly rod and fly line, you are flyfishing, regardless what you tied at the end of the line. For sure, I am not a purist. And I don’t want to be one. Cheers, Thi Nguyen

Response:

: Is it flyfishing? Nope, it’s poaching, pure and simple…;{) Tim Walker

Response:

: Is it flyfishing? Nope, it’s poaching, pure and simple…;{) Tim Walker

Tim, can you elaborate a little. Sometime, I am not sure that you are serious or joking. Thi Nguyen

Response:

Question:

Hi folks

I’ve been lurking here for a few weeks, and based on what I’ve seen,  I have to say that this is a downright nasty group! Now don’t go out and flame  me or anything, but some of the responses to concerns/stories/etc reek of egos  bigger than ‘the one that got away’. I realize that there are plenty of people who are nice and friendly and using the net for it’s intended purpose – info exchange, stories, etc., but some of you just take yourselves far too seriously. Lighten up. There are thousands of ways to fish, and the way you do it will always be the ‘wrong’ way according to someone else.  And if you think someone is bullshitting, remember that we All bullshit sometimes – yes even you! Take it in stride – we’re all here to have fun. Remember…you were as dumb as the rest of us once.  So let me tell you about the 290 lb perch I got last weekend… _____ Right on, I couldn’t agree with you more!

Response:

So let me tell you about the 290 lb perch I got last weekend…

        Probably fishing downstream from Three-Mile Island, eh?              Russell N. Sehnoutka                  AT&T – Bell Laboratories                  Naperville, Illinois                 (708) 979-7798            

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: darkside!constellation!news.uoknor.edu!ns1.nodak.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!new s.u.wa shington.edu!Fox Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing Organization: University of Washington Lines: 22 Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[8114] NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.95.148.91 Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender’s name. Hi folks I’ve been lurking here for a few weeks, and based on what I’ve seen,  I have to say that this is a downright nasty group! Now don’t go out and flame  me or anything, but some of the responses to concerns/stories/etc reek of egos  bigger than ‘the one that got away’. I realize that there are plenty of people who are nice and friendly and using the net for it’s intended purpose – info exchange, stories, etc., but some of you just take yourselves far too seriously. Lighten up. There are thousands of ways to fish, and the way you do it will always be the ‘wrong’ way according to someone else.  And if you think someone is bullshitting, remember that we All bullshit sometimes – yes even you! Take it in stride – we’re all here to have fun. Remember…you were as dumb as the rest of us once.  So let me tell you about the 290 lb perch I got last weekend… _____ Right on, I couldn’t agree with you more!

I’m sorry, but I must disagree.  I subscribe to several newsgroups and this one is the most flame free of any I read.  I have posted articles about fishing for catfish and even carp (not the USA’s most popular fish) and I have never read a reply or follow that felt like flame to me. Of course there are varying opinions as to what to fish for, where, when, and how to catch it, and what tackle to use.  But those I have never read a post that appeared to put anyone down for their personal preferences. Probably the most heated debate has been over C&R (catch & release) vs. catch & keep.  Even in that argument, I feel the posts have been honest and have tried to remain civilized.  I’ve never seen any serious arguments along the lines of: "Real men only fish for Bass",  "Fly fishing is art, anything else is just work", or "Freshwater fish are all wimps, saltwater is where the real fish live". Of course, you’d expect a certain amount of trolling on a newsgroup concerned with fishing  I have even suggested this newsgroup to trollers on other groups.  But it’s the good natured fish story type of troll (290# perch indeed!), not the nasty type that’s meant to embarass (Sp.?) newbies on other groups. In short, this newsgroup and ALT.FISHING are about as laid back as a usenet newsgroup could be.  Just what I’d expect for a group of anglers/fishermen/fisherpersons (take your pick). Good Luck and Good Fishing! Richard

Response:

Hi folks I’ve been lurking here for a few weeks, and based on what I’ve seen,  I have to say that this is a downright nasty group! Now don’t go out and flame me or anything, but some of the responses to concerns/stories/etc reek of egos bigger than ‘the one that got away’. I realize that there are plenty of people who are nice and friendly and using the net for it’s intended purpose – info exchange, stories, etc., but some of you just take yourselves far too seriously. Lighten up. There are thousands of ways to fish, and the way you do it will always be the ‘wrong’ way according to someone else.  And if you think someone is bullshitting, remember that we All bullshit sometimes – yes even you! Take it in stride – we’re all here to have fun. Remember…you were as dumb as the rest of us once. So let me tell you about the 290 lb perch I got last weekend…

Response:

So let me tell you about the 290 lb perch I got last weekend…

   Hey, tell us you were fishing in the Nile and we’ll believe you!  Mac McDougald            *   Any opinions expressed herein are  The Photography Center   *   not necessarily (actually, are  UNIV of TN, Knoxville    *   almost CERTAINLY NOT) those of UTK.  (615-974-3449)           *    than they’ve ever been before."    

Response: