Question:

Asadi writes: Peter, I’m seriously interested and would encourage The Pirate to do a small search also. We’re talking full hook-up campgrounds with saunas for heaven’s sake! And the pics that I’ve seen, well, Kodak moments abound. Only one problem, John: I’m booked at Lakewood for the entire month of June.  I would love to fish pike with Peter (will fish steelies with him in May), but I can’t give up Lakewood.  Thanks for the thought. Dave

It’s a bitch that the best Georgian Bay pike and the best time on the Rapid are the same month.  On my chronology, I went and left out our May float trip – how could I? OK, first week of May – Saugeen River float trip for steelies second week of May – Penns third week of May – some time on the Grand fourth week of May – St. John’s, Nfld first week of June – Rapid River, ME afterward – P to the fourth btw, Screech anyone??? Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

It’s going to be a busy few weeks.  First I’ll be at Penns, then I’ll be in St. John’s, Newfoundland the last week of May on business (just before salmon season opens, drats!) and I’ll be hooking up with a guide for some sea-run browns.  Then the next week, the first week of June, I’ll be on the Rapid.  Afterward, the rest of June is open for dates for the P to the 4th.  And in between all of this, I’ll be fitting in some days chasing brownies on the Grand. It’s a dirty job but somebody had to do it. Peter

Bitch.  <G — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

first week of May – Saugeen River float trip for steelies second week of May – Penns third week of May – some time on the Grand fourth week of May – St. John’s, Nfld first week of June – Rapid River, ME afterward – P to the fourth btw, Screech anyone??? Peter

Yeah, but will you really appreciate it?  Bitch.  <G — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

….btw, Screech anyone???

Hit me. Wolfgang

Response:

Peter, I’m seriously interested and would encourage The Pirate to do a small search also. We’re talking full hook-up campgrounds with saunas for heaven’s sake! And the pics that I’ve seen, well, Kodak moments abound. For me to do a trailer tow all the way up, figuring to overnight close to your place as a rest stop on the way, I’d like to arrange a partner to share the gas…my mileage gets cut in half when I tow. I could even put up a third person if people are interested.

If it’s just you and me, then we can do the Hagersville-Byng Inlet leg together. From my short foray to your neck of the woods last fall, I would highly recommend this to ROFF and would like to see a little interest. If you are definitely in, give me some dates. I need to come up anyway as I am just about out of Nabob coffee.

Don’t forget Tim Horton’s  :) For those who care about such matters, the exchange rate was  excellent a last year. I think I bought right at fifteen pounds of coffee. The campground fees are right at $25….Canadian….or $16 US. I’ll be pricing hats with ‘Post Penns Pike Palaver’ embroidery.

The ‘P to the fourth’ clave! John . . .  once more into the breech! . . . or is it ‘breach? . . . britches? PS. I made it there and back through customs with expired plates on the trailer!

They just took one look at your memorable visage and then had no further interest in your plates. <g Howzabout the rest of you?  Or are you all too chickenshit to go to a furrin country to fish?  <G Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I’ll be pricing hats with ‘Post Penns Pike Palaver’ embroidery. The ‘P to the fourth’ clave! John . . .  once more into the breech! . . . or is it ‘breach? . . . britches? PS. I made it there and back through customs with expired plates on the trailer!

Petah,    Thought you were gonna be on the Rapid Post Penns.  Wha’s up wid dat? — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

Asadi writes: Peter, I’m seriously interested and would encourage The Pirate to do a small search also. We’re talking full hook-up campgrounds with saunas for heaven’s sake! And the pics that I’ve seen, well, Kodak moments abound.

Only one problem, John: I’m booked at Lakewood for the entire month of June.  I would love to fish pike with Peter (will fish steelies with him in May), but I can’t give up Lakewood.  Thanks for the thought. Dave

Response:

Frank Reid writes: Thought you were gonna be on the Rapid Post Penns.  Wha’s up wid dat?

He is.  And his lovely wife.  I think he is talking about Georgia Bay later, after Lakewood. Dave

Response:

I’ll be pricing hats with ‘Post Penns Pike Palaver’ embroidery. The ‘P to the fourth’ clave! John . . .  once more into the breech! . . . or is it ‘breach? . . . britches? PS. I made it there and back through customs with expired plates on the trailer! Petah,   Thought you were gonna be on the Rapid Post Penns.  Wha’s up wid dat?

It’s going to be a busy few weeks.  First I’ll be at Penns, then I’ll be in St. John’s, Newfoundland the last week of May on business (just before salmon season opens, drats!) and I’ll be hooking up with a guide for some sea-run browns.  Then the next week, the first week of June, I’ll be on the Rapid.  Afterward, the rest of June is open for dates for the P to the 4th.  And in between all of this, I’ll be fitting in some days chasing brownies on the Grand. It’s a dirty job but somebody had to do it. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I’ll be in Lakewood the first week of June but after that . . . A couple of seasons ago, I stayed at Sawmill Lodge with Scott (no. 1 son) and we tangoed with Mr. Pike for a couple of days. I just received a mailout from Sawmill and they have a deal going.  We can get a cabin for four people, for three days, with two boats and gas for a total of $240.00 CAD each ($160.00 in real money).  That’s the four person cabin plan but there are other arrangements possible. They have a long motel-like arrangement they call the bunkhouse which we can get a deal on if we had enough bods. Given the different sizes of cabins, etc. they can accommodate pretty well any combination of numbers.  June is the hot month and as of today they have zero bookings as their mailers just went out. If we get our bookings in by Dec 31st, there’s a 15% discount and a 10% discount if booked by Jan 31st. BTW, guides cost $100.00 CAD a day including the boat and there’s the possibility of musky and walleye.  Smallies are a given. For equipment, 7 wt. to 10 wt. will do but a 9 or 10 is preferred. You’ll need a  minimum of two lines, a bassbug type floater and a full sink.  Depending on temperatures, the pike can be holding in the shallows or in 6′ to 10′ of water, so the ability to fish both helps. If you’re interested, I’ll need to send them deposits to hold the cabins. Sawmill is 4 hrs. north of my place and I live about 1 1/2 hrs. from Buffalo and three hours from Detroit (not allowing for traffic jams at the border.)  The best bet would be to drive up some time before and stay at my place before we head north.  Those wishing to fly should try and book into Hamilton rather than Toronto.  Hamilton airport is 20 minutes away, but Toronto’s Pearson International is 2 hrs. Let me know if you’re interested. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Peter, is the fishing on the bay itself? Can you get a guide and boat if you have made other arrangements for lodging?  A pike can give you a heck a ride on a kayak…admittedly, they are a little hard to steer…. Looks like some decent (EXCEPTIONAL) campgrounds for the land yacht crowd if my searches have pulled up the right Georgian Bay.. john

Response:

Peter, is the fishing on the bay itself? Can you get a guide and boat if you have made other arrangements for lodging?  A pike can give you a heck a ride on a kayak…admittedly, they are a little hard to steer…. Looks like some decent (EXCEPTIONAL) campgrounds for the land yacht crowd if my searches have pulled up the right Georgian Bay.. john

The fishing is in the rivers, inlets, and archipelago along the eastern shore of the bay.  We don’t actually fish the open bay. Guides and boats are available to anyone, they aren’t linked to a single lodge.  Mostly south of this area is holiday heaven for Torontoians (the Muskokas) but the Byng Inlet area is a bit farther north so it’s less busy.   The number of parks, campgrounds, and resorts is quite high because of this. The land here is quite different with a lot of exposed rock, not much soil and the water bottom mimics the land.  To find the pike, we have to find the weed beds for much of the water has a bottom of barren rock, but this  does have the benefit of concentrating the fish.  The area is very shallow with only a few spots much over ten feet deep so all of it is easily accessible with Type 5 or Type 6 sinking line, plus a floating line for the bays and shorelines.  Pike hang in the shallows till the water warms up then they move off into the deeper areas.  While they’re in the shallows, a floating line and big, hair bugs are used.  There’s nothing like the top water take of a pike. The big jaws slash out of the water, turn on the fly and smash it. Then the fish turns and tries to rip the rod out of your hands.  At which point you try and get your heart started again.  <G Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter, I’m seriously interested and would encourage The Pirate to do a small search also. We’re talking full hook-up campgrounds with saunas for heaven’s sake! And the pics that I’ve seen, well, Kodak moments abound. For me to do a trailer tow all the way up, figuring to overnight close to your place as a rest stop on the way, I’d like to arrange a partner to share the gas…my mileage gets cut in half when I tow. I could even put up a third person if people are interested. From my short foray to your neck of the woods last fall, I would highly recommend this to ROFF and would like to see a little interest. If you are definitely in, give me some dates. I need to come up anyway as I am just about out of Nabob coffee. For those who care about such matters, the exchange rate was  excellent a last year. I think I bought right at fifteen pounds of coffee. The campground fees are right at $25….Canadian….or $16 US. I’ll be pricing hats with ‘Post Penns Pike Palaver’ embroidery. John . . .  once more into the breech! . . . or is it ‘breach? . . . britches? PS. I made it there and back through customs with expired plates on the trailer! http://www.parkscanada.gc.ca/parks/ontario/georgian_bay/english/campi… m http://www.lafontaine-ent.on.ca/camping/noframes/face.html

Response:

Question:

I’m going to fishing Kolob Res. next week.  Any recent fishing reports and/or fly recommendations anyone care to pass on? Thanks, Eric

Though I’ve not been there this year, my family still lives in Virgin and Kolob is one of my "home" waters.  Its best fished this time of year from a float tube.  Remember, its gonna be cold up there, so put on the extra layers. I like to "troll" a big dragonfly nymph in the north end of the lake, near were the creek comes in.  The water is shallower there and will warm faster. Also, chironomids patterns can be successful near shore. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

I’m going to fishing Kolob Res. next week.  Any recent fishing reports and/or fly recommendations anyone care to pass on? Also, I will be up around the east of the South Slope of the Uintah Mountains (Uintah River) next week as well.  I’d appreciate fly recommendations on the streams and high lakes (Paradise, Pachetta) that you might have. Thanks, Eric

Response:

Question:

Hello all, Now that it’s midwinter, I am doing much fishing in my mind, thinking about the season to come.  I have thought about how the focus on my fishing during the 10 years I have lived in New York has gone from nymphing to dry fly fishing.  I do all styles and approaches, but I do find that I seek out situations where I am most likely to get them on top. I probably should nymph more than I do, because you can do it without a hatch, and there are better chances of getting bigger fish.  I just get annoyed how deep nymphing is better suited with different rods, lines, and leaders than dry fly fishing.  I find it awkward to switch back and forth on the stream, and I refuse to carry 2 rods onto the water. One thing about the technique – I do most nymphing in close – with a rodlength or 2 of line out, no more.  I find it very hard to control the drift beyond that.  Can anybody give me some discussion about nymphing in close/far away?  About good nymphing leader recipies(I tie my own)?  About how spooky fish react to your closeness to them? Pete Collin

Response:

Peter, I think you’re doing the right thing restricting you line length, I’m very disciplined about that using a maximum of one myself while searching pocket water and runs.  If I see a fish, I will lengthen line as the circumstances allow rather than approach to close. It does take a fair bit of concentration which can be nice to alleviate with a dry fly presentation every now and then – often I find the fish taking the dry will take the nymph quite readily. I’m happy to use the same leader for both dry and nymph – adding or deleting tippett where required … length is a rod length (7.5 – 9ft) and thats it. Formulae is the simple 60 20 20 occasionally I’ll use a furled butt section of 4lb mono usually where there is room to swing the rod for a decent hook set.   What is important is the nymph swimming level, especially when searching water for fish that are not visible.  Usually tight to the bottom requires a fly somewhere down there to attract their interest. However you prefer to get the fly down, weight in the fly or a shotted up leader is immaterial as long as it is in the zone.   Casting might not seem important in such circumstance but it is … if you can cast (by whatever means) so that the leader doesn’t straighten properly the fly will sink further than if it does straighten.  I sometimes think it is forgotten that this is something that can be used to great effect in controlling the depth of a nymph for long or short distance nymphing with weighty flies. The Flies themselves are an interesting topic … Steve

Response:

One thing about the technique – I do most nymphing in close – with a rodlength or 2 of line out, no more.  I find it very hard to control the drift beyond that.  Can anybody give me some discussion about nymphing in close/far away?

No simple answers here, Peter. Nymphing is a big topic. It’s worth a few books and quite a few have been written. There are a variety of techniques that allow you to nymph in close, as far as you can cast, just under the surface, bouncing on the bottom, etc. etc. etc. It take times to learn the different techniques, more time to get decent with them, but what’s probably the most difficult to learn is where and when to use the different techniques. Like dry fly fishing, control is much easier if your casts are short. If the situation warrants it, you are going to be more successful fishing in close. Like Jeff and Dave pointed out, you can often get very close to fish when they are feeding on the bottom, especially in broken water. They are much more secure than fish feeding on the surface. However, there are several other things that dictate how close you can get. Because of a number of factors, trout in some streams and rivers are more spooky. Much tougher to get close to these fish without spooking them. On placid sections, it is often difficult to get close to fish without spooking them, etc. On big rivers, depth and current speed are going to prevent you from wading close enough for a short cast to many prime areas. For example, the most productive area we fished at Henry’s Fork this fall, required long casts to reach some of the best lies. I also dislike rerigging all the time on the water. IMO, for most nymphing, a short leader butt with a couple of long tippet sections is better for nymphing than a traditional tapered leader.  The thinner tippet sections allow the fly to sink more readily, act more naturally and also allow you to use less weight (which I like). However, more often, I just add a long tippet section to a regular tapered leader. That way it’s much easier to switch back to a dry. This does mean, at least when fishing deep water, my leader is very long. Willi

Response:

One thing about the technique – I do most nymphing in close – with a rodlength or 2 of line out, no more.  I find it very hard to control the drift beyond that.  Can anybody give me some discussion about nymphing in close/far away?

Another thing – learn the "tuck cast".  It’s great for shorter distance casting in pocket water when you need to get the nymph down to fish-catchin’ level ASAP.  Much easier with a split shot near the nymph or a weighted nymph.

Response:

One thing about the technique – I do most nymphing in close – with a rodlength or 2 of line out, no more.  I find it very hard to control the drift beyond that.  Can anybody give me some discussion about nymphing in close/far away?

A longer rod certainly helps.  In fact, I’m thinking of going to a 9.5 to 10 foot rod for heavy nymphing and might ask about that here soon.  For closer nymphing with a "high stick" (controlling depth and slack by raising and lowering your rod), I think you’re better off with no strike indicator. This is especially true in deeper, broken water with rocks where the depth keeps changing.  The farther away you get, especially if you are not sight nymphing in clear water, and especially if the depth is constant, the more a strike indicator will help you.  With steady water flow (not a lot of broken water and mixed currents), you can get in some fairly long casts with an indicator.  About good nymphing leader recipies(I tie my own)?

Tying your own is convenient if you use a foam indicator or other indicator that you can slide around, since you have a number of knots that act as "stops" for the indicator.  As far as material, Maxima works good but it’s not the strongest per diameter, so I’m looking for something else in the tippet.  Flouro is too damn expensive, and Orvis Super Strong has broken a lot on me – it’s strong, but it’s simply not very abrasion resistant IMO. Look up Borger’s "uni-body" leader if you want simplicity.  With a bit of lead on the leader, we’re not going to quibble over the whether the 6th section should be 15 or 17" for best turnover, eh?  About how spooky fish react to your closeness to them?

In bouldery pocket water with deeper runs and chop on top, you can get virtually on top of them (assuming you can’t see them).  In fact I’ve gone in with my arm up to my shoulder to pull out a snag, and continued to fish the run and catch fish.  In smoother spring creek type water, and for sight nymphing, ask elsewhere

Response:

I’m confused by this statement. Would you please elaborate? — Citizen Fisherman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m happy to use the same leader for both dry and nymph – adding or deleting tippett where required … length is a rod length (7.5 – 9ft) and thats it.

Response:

Peter Collin writes: One thing about the technique – I do most nymphing in close – with a rodlength or 2 of line out, no more.  I find it very hard to control the drift beyond that.  Can anybody give me some discussion about nymphing in close/far away?  About good nymphing leader recipies(I tie my own)?  About how spooky fish react to your closeness to them? Pete Collin

Hi, Peter.  Most of my nymphing is within 15 feet of me, but there are the occasions (quite often, really) when an actual distance cast can be of some use.  Up and across (with or without an indicator) seems to work best for me. I am talking, maybe, 30 or so feet.   I have found that the nymph must get down to the bottom for best results.  The best way I have found to do this is to use non-toxic split shot.  If you do not know the water you will have to experiment with the size/amount of shot.  Your leader/line or indicator should move slower than the surface water (unlike dry fly fishing).  The water near the bottom of the pool/run/etc is moving slower than the surface water.  Therefore, you have to slow down your drift.  Gary Borger in a recent tutorial stated that if your indicator is moving the same speed as the surface water, you have to add more weight (split shot, bead head, whatever).  If I use an indicator, it is usually the yarn type with the o-ring attached.  Put some floatant on and it never sinks. I prefer a leader somewhere between 7 1/2 to 9 feet, with an additional 3 or so feet of tippet.  I generally use a 4x leader with 4x or 5x fluorocarbon tippet.  About 3 feet above the fly (at the leader/tippet knot), I place my shot.  I seldom fish a double. To switch over to dries, simply snip off the fluorocarbon tippet and add 3 feet of mono 5x.  I always use a floating line, btw.  It is easier to mend.  My favorite rod is a Sage SP 9 foot 4 weight. Spooky fish?  I’ve caught fish right at my feet on Maine, MA, NY, PA, and NM waters.  The fish in Idaho were a little more spooky and most of my hook-ups were at a distance, up and across.  The fish in Labrador were very spooky and in four years, I managed to catch only 2 small (2 – 3 pounds) brook trout on caddis worms.  It is a dry fly fisherman’s heaven!  d;0) A lengthy reply……sorry.  HTH Dave

Response:

Question:

What are your best colors to make deerhair poppers and why? What size hook do you find the best? Have a great day, go fly fishing! Tight lines Craig Moore The English Fly Fishing Shop www.flyfishing-flies.com < < < < < < <

  < < < < < <

Response:

Both questions depend on what type of terrestrial bait you are imitating with the deer hair popper….   Early in the year there are a lot of green grasshoppers around and later in the year most grasshoppers you see out are darker colors.  Check your local areas to find out whats local that may be imitated by the poppers and go from there.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are your best colors to make deerhair poppers and why? What size hook do you find the best? Have a great day, go fly fishing! Tight lines Craig Moore The English Fly Fishing Shop www.flyfishing-flies.com < < < < < < <   < < < < < <

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I am new to fly fishing and just learning to tie I took up fly fishing just to learn to make a 7 year locust.  (Zakadia?) Does anyone know of a pattern? — Highlander

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I think you guys might have stumbled into the wrong newsgroup. Bass fisherman don’t normally tie lures. You might want to try alt.fly-tying or something else. — Jerry Barton Be nice to your kids, they get to pick your nursing home. http://members.home.net/jbarton248/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are your best colors to make deerhair poppers and why? What size hook do you find the best? Have a great day, go fly fishing! Tight lines Craig Moore The English Fly Fishing Shop www.flyfishing-flies.com < < < < < < <   < < < < < <

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Take a look around this search (the spelling is "cicada"), and see if you can find anything. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fly+tying+cicada+pattern Jamie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to fly fishing and just learning to tie I took up fly fishing just to learn to make a 7 year locust.  (Zakadia?) Does anyone know of a pattern?

Response:

Not.  In the past  I have  used fly’s on a spinning bubble I use anything for bass I am a all around fisherman and fish for pure pleasure In the past I was die hard bass man I use purple worms, Rapalas, and jitter bugs, and now use any weapon in my arsenal including a fly rod. I probably dont catch as many fish as I could But there is something about that water exploding with top water I love. Largest fish to date in southern Indiana stripper pits 7.5 Lb largemouth with my sons in the boat banging their toy trucks on the bottom in a clear lake (15 foot deep) around noon. So much for the rules I tried for years to get my wife interested and couldn’t Two years ago I finally got her out and on the second cast she caught a 6.5 pound bass Did I create a monster If I could only get her to put on her own crickets for gills I have found the postings on changing the hooks interesting. I started checking the sharpness several years ago and increased my catch by double Years ago I was fishing a pit off of a hill. I could see this bass following my worm. He followed it to shore where the only thing I could do was drop it pause and twitch. That sucker grabbed it ran dived come out of the water with a tail walk and spit it out. Dull hooks  Id give a hundred dollars for the vidio — Highlander

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What brought this line up was years ago I got in the middle of a seven year locust hatch. We were using them for bait As fast as they hit the water they was gone Bass gill crappie. I had to quit fishing because my hands were bleeding from taking fish off the hook. Could stand some more of that. One time occurrence — Highlander

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The two most popular patterns are a basically all black hairbug and then a frog pattern (green on top and yellow on bottom) then put rubber legs out the sides and neck hackles out the back. Not too big and not too small. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are your best colors to make deerhair poppers and why? What size hook do you find the best? Have a great day, go fly fishing! Tight lines Craig Moore The English Fly Fishing Shop www.flyfishing-flies.com < < < < < < <   < < < < < <

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Question:

When I moved into this place 3 months ago, I found that there was 3 dozen pigeons in my gables.  Through a very intense early morning patrol of: removing nests, slamming doors, making a presence known, building a board with nail, then putting an owl on the 3rd floor roof, I finally tried to scare them off with a BB gun.  Is the next step "Rat Nip"? I’m at my Wit’s end here. Thanks.

Response:

Try a LA Habor trick, They strung mono-filiment line ( fishing line) across the areas that the pigeons and seagulls liked to pearch and nest. They can’t see it and they fly right into it and bounce off and sometimes hit the ground. They learn quick that they can’t land there. Cris-cross it like a spider web, as I understant it,  it works very well. Other solution is a tack strip, with small sharp nails, the birds can’t stand on it. I hope this helps, (back to my regular lurk mode) John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -When I moved into this place 3 months ago, I found that there was 3 dozen pigeons in my gables.  Through a very intense early morning patrol of: removing nests, slamming doors, making a presence known, building a board with nail, then putting an owl on the 3rd floor roof, I finally tried to scare them off with a BB gun.  Is the next step "Rat Nip"? I’m at my Wit’s end here. Thanks.

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I had the same problem in my old three story house. Instead of a BB gun I used my sons’ Super Soaker squirt gun. It worked OK for a while – they seemd to know when I was gone and planned their activities accordingly. Mark Molnar – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I moved into this place 3 months ago, I found that there was 3 dozen pigeons in my gables.  Through a very intense early morning patrol of: removing nests, slamming doors, making a presence known, building a board with nail, then putting an owl on the 3rd floor roof, I finally tried to scare them off with a BB gun.  Is the next step "Rat Nip"? I’m at my Wit’s end here. Thanks.

Response:

When I moved into this place 3 months ago, I found that there was 3 dozen pigeons in my gables.  Through a very intense early morning patrol of: removing nests, slamming doors, making a presence known, building a board with nail, then putting an owl on the 3rd floor roof, I finally tried to scare them off with a BB gun.  Is the next step "Rat Nip"?

I had a similar problem with the house I bought a few months ago. The blame could be put on the previous owner, who neighbors told me, fed the pigeons. There are a couple of solutions, you can do them yourself or hire a professional (Look under "Bird Control" or "Pest Control" in the yellow pages). – You can put down spikes in strategic locations. – You can put up netting. – You can live trap (OK, the trap catches them alive, but due to – pigeons’ homing instincts you can’t just let them go, so they have   to be killed). http://www.flybye.com/ sells supplies. I went with a local pest control company that put up spikes and netting and tried to live trap. The live trap didn’t work for me; in fact the pigeons had no respect for it as they would walk all over it, but not go in it. It wasn’t cheap to have it done for me: $400 for the spikes and netting (on a 1.5 story house), and $140 for trapping. For a few weeks the spikes and netting only seemed to work a little. A neighbor recommended putting rubber snakes on the roof. I bought a couple of rubber snakes, but I never did get around to putting them on the roof as after a few weeks the pigeon visitation stopped. Another alternative that I thought of was making the roof accessible to cats. I have a few and there are plenty of neighbor cats. I thought of some designs for "cat ladders" but I never had the need to construct one. — Doug Rudoff

Response:

When I moved into this place 3 months ago, I found that there was 3 dozen pigeons in my gables.  Through a very intense early morning patrol of: removing nests, slamming doors, making a presence known, building a board with nail, then putting an owl on the 3rd floor roof, I finally tried to scare them off with a BB gun.  Is the next step "Rat Nip"?

A couple of cat would discourage them, particularly if you don’t overfeed them. Otherwise, cover all entrances with 1" poultry netting (aka chicken wire); if they’re nesting in louvers or something on the outside, cover those as well (the wire will be virtually invisible from a distance). Place a radio up there blasting heavy metal or rap at full volume, if it won’t bother your neighbors. Scatter around a few handfulls of moth balls. I’m at my Wit’s end here.

I’ve always wanted to build a street named "Wit", terminating in a cul-de-sac… Gary — "It’s like complaining if wood has grains in it. Wood does have grains in it, and it is still beautiful."  Apple VP Phil Schiller, trying to explain away cracks in the Apple G4 Cube as being "mold marks".

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: Try a LA Habor trick, : They strung mono-filiment line ( fishing line) across the areas that : the pigeons and seagulls liked to pearch and nest. They can’t see it : and they fly right into it and bounce off and sometimes hit the : ground. They learn quick that they can’t land there. : Cris-cross it like a spider web, as I understant it,  it works very : well. Other solution is a tack strip, with small sharp nails, the : birds can’t stand on it. : I hope this helps, (back to my regular lurk mode) : John

: When I moved into this place 3 months ago, I found that there was 3 dozen : pigeons in my gables.  Through a very intense early morning patrol of: : removing nests, slamming doors, making a presence known, building a board : with nail, then putting an owl on the 3rd floor roof, I finally tried to : scare them off with a BB gun.  Is the next step "Rat Nip"? : : I’m at my Wit’s end here. : : Thanks. These sound like good ways which DON’T involve killing. No need to do that. —

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Question:

Our California rivers are full of lead and mercury.  Fortunately it settles to the bedrock below the gravel and hopefully does little damage.  My friend looks for gold in our Mother Load Rivers while I fish for trout.  The lead is from bullets, the mercury was left by the 49ers.  Quite often the mercury is attached to gold. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sadly (for those of us who like to use it) real lead foil is fast becoming a thing of the past on wine bottles.  Lead has caused the same level of concern in this arena as it has elsewhere.  More and more wineries are changing over to other materials.  Plastic, tin, aluminum, and perhaps a few other materials are becoming more and more common.

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I’m afraid I have to disagree with Mike and Wolfgang here. These days, many of the flies tied in third world countries are pretty good.

I can’t think of the brand right now but there is one line of mass produced flies that seems decent.  It comes in a yellow package and has somebody’s name on it but the logo/graphics look nearly identical to the old Fred Arbogast lure company logo.  I think it might be Hank Roberts or something like that.  Not sure about the matierals but the tying is better than the others. Most of the flies I have seen at K-Mart however are fairly crappy. Mu

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I would agree actually Tony, especially as regards the Fulling Mill flies, and there are a couple of others which are not bad.  I have seen a great deal of "Bubble packaged" stuff however, especially in big stores, which was absolutely awful. These things are often sold by the big chains, and not in tackle shops etc.  These were what I meant. It certainly was not my intention to brand all these producers as "sweat shops".  My apologies if I caused such an impression. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m afraid I have to disagree with Mike and Wolfgang here. These days, many of the flies tied in third world countries are pretty good. I’m certain that the wages paid are pretty low by our standards, but to brand all third world manufacture as ’sweat shops’ is probably both unfair and inaccurate. The flies that are marketed here by ‘Fulling Mill Flies’ are (in many cases) quite excellent. They are tied in Kenya and Barry Unwin’s people are very good on product development and quality control. It doesn’t particularly matter that an African woman is never going to go fly fishing. If she’s nimble-fingered enough to tie good quality flies and it’s paying her a decent wage (by local standards), what’s the problem? I have often looked at some of Fulling Mill’s standard patterns (Muddlers, for example) and thought to myself: ‘Why the hell do I bother tying my own?’

I’m not familiar with Fulling Mill’s products Tony.   Judging from what I have seen of the flies sold in the big discount stores like K-Mart they aren’t handling these products.  None of the stuff I’ve seen sold in such places was made by anyone who shows much evidence of being nimble fingered or of being familiar with the patterns upon which their wares are allegedly modeled.  In these products it is not unusual to see that the heads are already unraveling in the package.  Feathers are mismatched, badly frayed, poorly dyed, and askew. This is merely the beginning of what could be a very long list of sins.  And all of this is apparent just looking through the packaging. I think the best way for David to assess these flies is to buy a single package and then take them to a fly shop for comparison.  Even a rank novice should easily be able to see and evaluate the differences.

Response:

Thanks for the info. I thought that by crimping the end of the solder, the rosin would be sealed inside, but it’s too thick to use anyway. Great idea about the lead foil though. I’m not much of a drinker, and had no idea that wrapping was made of lead.  I went ahead and bought a few packs of cheap flies, just for casting practice, for when I finally get my rod and reel.

Sadly (for those of us who like to use it) real lead foil is fast becoming a thing of the past on wine bottles.  Lead has caused the same level of concern in this arena as it has elsewhere.  More and more wineries are changing over to other materials.  Plastic, tin, aluminum, and perhaps a few other materials are becoming more and more common.

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Re side question. Not sure but solder is possible contaminant which should not be used for weighting flies. Would probably be better if you bought the proper stuff from shop just to be safe unless someone can say for sure solder is safe. Regards from Montreal John Brkich

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Re side question. Not sure but solder is possible contaminant which should not be used for weighting flies. Would probably be better if you bought the proper stuff from shop just to be safe unless someone can say for sure solder is safe.

Solder was traditionally made from various proportions of lead and tin. You can still get this stuff but it is being replaced by lead free solder.  The new alloys are being distributed precisely because of concerns over lead poisoning.  Presumably they are safer….at least until we hear otherwise.  The old stuff, since it contains lead, is to be considered somewhat dangerous, but obviously no more so than the lead wire and weights which are still being sold and widely used.  The lead foil wrappers from wine bottles are very useful but equally dangerous. Aside from the lead question, solder has another problem.  Cored solder is hollow and filled with either rosin or acid, either of which works as a flux.  This helps to keep work surfaces from oxidizing under heat, thus ensuring that the melted solder will stick.  Both rosin and acids are corrosive and toxic.  Prolonged or intense exposure to either is something of a health hazard, not to mention the damage they can do to fly tying materials.  Given enough time, the acid from acid core solder will completely disintegrate steel hooks.  You can imagine what it might do to more fragile materials.

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Thanks for the info. I thought that by crimping the end of the solder, the rosin would be sealed inside, but it’s too thick to use anyway. Great idea about the lead foil though. I’m not much of a drinker, and had no idea that wrapping was made of lead.  I went ahead and bought a few packs of cheap flies, just for casting practice, for when I finally get my rod and reel.

Response:

I do not know the specific flies you mention, but most of the chains carry flies made in Africa and other places using almost sweatshop labour Some of these are useable, many more  are not. Materials are substituted, patterns are freely bastardised, the quality is often poor,

(etc., snipped) I’m afraid I have to disagree with Mike and Wolfgang here. These days, many of the flies tied in third world countries are pretty good. I’m certain that the wages paid are pretty low by our standards, but to brand all third world manufacture as ’sweat shops’ is probably both unfair and inaccurate. The flies that are marketed here by ‘Fulling Mill Flies’ are (in many cases) quite excellent. They are tied in Kenya and Barry Unwin’s people are very good on product development and quality control. It doesn’t particularly matter that an African woman is never going to go fly fishing. If she’s nimble-fingered enough to tie good quality flies and it’s paying her a decent wage (by local standards), what’s the problem? I have often looked at some of Fulling Mill’s standard patterns (Muddlers, for example) and thought to myself: ‘Why the hell do I bother tying my own?’ Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

The local K-Mart is being renovated into a Super K-Mart, and all their Blue Fox and Scientific Angler flies are marked down to about 50 cents per fly. Are these flies any good from the standpoint of (a) being well made and durable, or, (b) being useful "models" to emulate when tying my own? Side question: I have some resin core solder, .062" diameter. is this about the right size for making weighted nymphs?

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The local K-Mart is being renovated into a Super K-Mart, and all their Blue Fox and Scientific Angler flies are marked down to about 50 cents per fly. Are these flies any good from the standpoint of (a) being well made and durable, or, (b) being useful "models" to emulate when tying my own? Side question: I have some resin core solder, .062" diameter. is this about the right size for making weighted nymphs?

a. no b. no c. no Any flies you can buy at K-mart are crap.  These flies are all made in places where they have never been used for fly fishing; Kenya, Sri Lanka, etc., and the people making them have almost certainly never had the leisure to use anything like them.  I’ve bought some over the years just to see how well they were made (despite the fact that a glance through the packaging spoke volumes).  They are invariably shit.  Many of them bear only a superficial resemblance to well known patterns whether or not they actually have a name of some sort printed on the package and many of them do not. .062" is a sixteenth of an inch.  MUCH too large for most fly tying applications.  Might be marginally useful for shaping and weighting huge woolly buggers or something similar but the vast majority of patterns in whatever size would never call for anything that large.  Besides, either rosin or acid core solder is a very poor choice because of the effects the flux will have on all the other materials, none of which you are likely to find beneficial.

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I do not know the specific flies you mention, but most of the chains carry flies made in Africa and other places using almost sweatshop labour Some of these are useable, many more  are not. Materials are substituted, patterns are freely bastardised, the quality is often poor, the hooks are not good etc etc.  Best to avoid such flies. The "bubble packaged" ones seem especially awful. The packaging probably costs a lot more than the content. Doubtless five hundred incensed anglers will now write and tell me that they use nothing else, and that the flies are basically perfect. Nevertheless, experience suggests you should avoid such flies unless you know the exact source and reputation of the manufacturer. The solder you mention is quite a bit too thick really. Also you do not know what effect the chemicals in the flux may have on your materials, and the resin core makes it considerably lighter than lead wire.  Most fly-dressing supply houses supply suitable lead wire on bobbins. Save the lead sheet from your whisky and wine bottle tops, this can be cut into strips and used to wrap bodies etc. If you use lead to weight flies, then give it a coat of lacquer, cement, etc, before forming the body, as otherwise the lead will "bleed" through the body and ruin  the fly. For weighting some flies you can use pieces of "paper clips". Cut these to length using side cutters, and then place them parallel to the hook shank on both sides, top and bottom as well if you like, and whip them on.  This makes nicely formed bodies for some nymphs, and guarantees the exact same weight every time. This also works well with copper wire, even thicker stuff which you can not wrap normally. You can also form the lead foil from bottles etc using a set of old wing cutters. This makes really good consistent nymph bodies with the right shape for many nymphs in various sizes. Use one "lead wing" whipped to the top of the hook, or one under one over and then whipped etc.  The weight is also very consistent on these flies, as the exact same amount of lead is used every time, assuming the foil is of the same thickness. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Question:

If you like to watch fishing on the Outdoorlife network then goto the following site and vote for fishing/hunting or all we will be seeing is horses bicycles and kayaks http://www.greatoutdoors.com/oln/yes.html Thanks Rob

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just want to let you know that i wrote a java program to constantly vote for fishing.  you should have already noticed the rapid increase in percentage points luke

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you like to watch fishing on the Outdoorlife network then goto the following site and vote for fishing/hunting or all we will be seeing is horses bicycles and kayaks http://www.greatoutdoors.com/oln/yes.html Thanks Rob

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Unfortunatly someone must have noticed and wrote a program of their own to vote for conservation…which i also like, but still want to keep fishing first. (looks like i’m just going to have to span 5 more copies of my program luke

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-no-archive: yes just want to let you know that i wrote a java program to constantly vote for fishing.  you should have already noticed the rapid increase in percentage points Now that explains why the numbers increased faster than I could vote. Great stuff luke.

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(looks like i’m just going to have to span 5 more copies of my program

For cryin’ out loud, it’s bad enough that you engage in such puerile bullshit but to come here and brag about it reveals all the social skills of a twisted teenager and the emotional maturity of a juvenile delinquent. Go away and grow up or better yet, just go away. — Ken Fortenberry

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well thanks for the kind words. i just happen to like fly fishing on OLN.  Sorry you disagree. Luke. p.s. not a teenager.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (looks like i’m just going to have to span 5 more copies of my program For cryin’ out loud, it’s bad enough that you engage in such puerile bullshit but to come here and brag about it reveals all the social skills of a twisted teenager and the emotional maturity of a juvenile delinquent. Go away and grow up or better yet, just go away. — Ken Fortenberry

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well thanks for the kind words. i just happen to like fly fishing on OLN.  Sorry you disagree.

I don’t give a damn how many ballot boxes you can stuff. It’s not particularly clever or cute and the programming decisions of OLN, whatever the hell THAT is, really don’t have anything at all to do with flyfishing anyway. p.s. not a teenager.

Then quit acting like one. — Ken Fortenberry

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I apologize if i pissed anyone else off.  For those of you who don’t get OLN, its a wonderful network that has many fly fishing shows.  I just wanted to make sure fly fisherman (including myself) didn’t lose that.  This will be my last post. Again, sorry to all of those that i annoyed.  That was not my intention. Luke

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well thanks for the kind words. i just happen to like fly fishing on OLN.  Sorry you disagree. I don’t give a damn how many ballot boxes you can stuff. It’s not particularly clever or cute and the programming decisions of OLN, whatever the hell THAT is, really don’t have anything at all to do with flyfishing anyway. p.s. not a teenager. Then quit acting like one. — Ken Fortenberry

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I apologize if i pissed anyone else off.  For those of you who don’t get OLN, its a wonderful network that has many fly fishing shows.  I just wanted to make sure fly fisherman (including myself) didn’t lose that.  This will be my last post. Again, sorry to all of those that i annoyed.  That was not my intention.

As Fortenberry carves another notch in his belt. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Then why get on your self-appointed high horse (yet again) and demand that he leave roff?

Because I don’t like smarmy punks bragging about doing something stupid and dishonest in the name of flyfishing. Bite me Powlesland and note the date. — Ken Fortenberry

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I apologize if i pissed anyone else off.  For those of you who don’t get OLN, its a wonderful network that has many fly fishing shows.  I just wanted to make sure fly fisherman (including myself) didn’t lose that.  This will be my last post. Again, sorry to all of those that i annoyed.  That was not my intention. Luke

The problem being, you’ve invalidated the survey results.  It won’t take a genius at OLN to figure somebody has spiked their results. BTW, judging by the amount Conservation went up, your little java thingy was probably doing both.   Peter

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As Fortenberry carves another notch in his belt.

Always happy to be of service to honest flyfisher folk the world over. — Ken Fortenberry

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X-no-archive: yes Because I don’t like smarmy punks bragging about doing something stupid and dishonest in the name of flyfishing. And who appointed a pompous, pretentious, ass like yourself to be the defender of flyfishing’s "name"?

Whoa, I think ‘pretentious’ might be a little strong there… <g — Charlie…

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And who appointed a pompous, pretentious, ass like yourself to be the defender of flyfishing’s "name"?

Golly, what an honor. Insults and name calling from ROFF’s premier stalker. I am humbled, sweetums. I don’t want to replace TBone in your heart of hearts but please, do think of me in your latex fantasies. — Ken Fortenberry

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If Jim actually does have dreams, I’d guess they involve untanned leather. 8^) RalphH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Golly, what an honor. Insults and name calling from ROFF’s premier stalker. I am humbled, sweetums. I don’t want to replace TBone in your heart of hearts but please, do think of me in your latex fantasies. — Ken Fortenberry

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Because I don’t like smarmy punks bragging about doing something stupid and dishonest in the name of flyfishing. And who appointed a pompous, pretentious, ass like yourself to be the defender of flyfishing’s "name"?

I did, in point of fact. And your defense of less-than-honest methods has been noted in the Great Book of Karma. BMPIA. Opt out == cop-out. What’s so hard to understand?

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As for "stalking", why do *you* persist on sending me private email?

Why thank you for asking, my email to you verbatim: Do you EVER post an opinion on flyfishing equipment, a trip report, an answer to a query or ANYTHING save contentious bullshit ? Seriously, Jim, I think you need to seek help, your animosity and stalking behavior is a symptom of an illness. I wish you the best, — Ken Fortenberry

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Do you EVER post an opinion on flyfishing equipment, a trip report, an answer to a query or ANYTHING save contentious bullshit ?

FWIW, since deja doesn’t archive ‘no archive’ posts there’s no way to answer this question to your satisfaction, but in my recollection he actually does do those things on occasion and probably more often than ‘your pal’. Just what is a ’stalker stalker’ called, anyway<g. — Charlie…

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Ken Fortenberry! snipped ravings: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Seriously, Jim, I think you need to seek help, your animosity and stalking behavior is a symptom of an illness. I wish you the best,  (NOT!)

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Do you EVER post an opinion on flyfishing equipment, a trip report, an answer to a query or ANYTHING save contentious bullshit ? Yes I do. In fact I was posting quite civilly in roff for the past few months until you decided to barge in and throw insults around.

Gotta give credit where credit is due.  Jim’s been eerily civil lately.      - Ken

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Yes I do. In fact I was posting quite civilly in roff for the past few months until you decided to barge in and throw insults around.

I must’ve missed all that civility, and for the record, I wasn’t insulting you, hell, I wasn’t even talking to you. I was flaming "Brown Trout" to hell and back for the twit script ballot stuffing bullshit. — Ken Fortenberry

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-no-archive: yes Why thank you for asking, my email to you verbatim: So why bother emailing it to me in the first place? Harassment? Do you EVER post an opinion on flyfishing equipment, a trip report, an answer to a query or ANYTHING save contentious bullshit ? Yes I do. In fact I was posting quite civilly in roff for the past few months until you decided to barge in and throw insults around. Seriously, Jim, I think you need to seek help, your animosity and stalking behavior is a symptom of an illness. This is rich coming from roff’s resident bully. I wish you the best, And I fully intend to stand up to your abusive bluster.

______  Jim you’re welcome to slap him silly when he does become abusive.  His kind of nonsense has to stop.  It is not good for ROFF as he baits the other bottom dwellers when he behaves like this, using his daughter as an excuse to do so, behind the scenes.  He thinks he has rights!  Let’s not buy his personal problems as that excuse to behave badly here.  So far, I dread the first day he showed up here.  I wish he would just go away or get counciling at the University.  He has NOT made this news group any better after all his New Year wishes to everyone. Pathetic.  Truly pathetic and the soon everyone helps stop this kind of conduct will ROFF have a chance of becoming a pleasant place again. We will talk more about it tonight because ROFF has been a regular conversation at the chat site lately. George Gehrke   — http://www.gink.com/chat

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You don’t get OLN, you didn’t even know what it was.  You just saw it and decided to be an asshole.  People who do get OLN wrote to thank me.  The reason i did it in the first place was because the ballot was already stuffed (someone else had a program running voting for something else).  We just want to keep our damn fly-fishing shows.  Since you don’t get OLN, and didn’t know what it was, why didn’t you keep your mouth shut?  Couldn’t resist the temptation to be an asshole. I don’t give a damn how many ballot boxes you can stuff. It’s not particularly clever or cute and the programming decisions of OLN, whatever the hell THAT is, really don’t have anything at all to do with flyfishing anyway.

Nothing to do with fly fishing eh?  You are an idiot. Luke

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes I do. In fact I was posting quite civilly in roff for the past few months until you decided to barge in and throw insults around. I must’ve missed all that civility, and for the record, I wasn’t insulting you, hell, I wasn’t even talking to you. I was flaming "Brown Trout" to hell and back for the twit script ballot stuffing bullshit. — Ken Fortenberry

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… why didn’t you keep your mouth shut?  Couldn’t resist the temptation to be an asshole.

I’m not tempted to be an asshole, I AM an asshole and one of the things that really peeves me is too clever, punk twits bragging about how cute their little scams are. It’s not cute, fool. It’s dishonest, it’s stupid and bragging about it is even stupider. Take your juvenile nonsense and stick it where the sun don’t shine. Decent, honest people want nothing to do with it. Nothing to do with fly fishing eh?  You are an idiot.

If you think sitting on your twit ass in front of the boob tube has something to do with flyfishing why are you calling ME an idiot ? Here’s a clue, free of charge, TV flyfishing is about selling stuff. — Ken Fortenberry

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I’m not tempted to be an asshole, I AM an asshole and one

Enough said.

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This is .. how shall I put this politely .. low. Go chat on your nice private ginkspot, but below-the-belt attacks like this don’t belong here. And if you think they do, _you_ don’t belong here. Herman, p.o.’d – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ______  Jim you’re welcome to slap him silly when he does become abusive.  His kind of nonsense has to stop.  It is not good for ROFF as he baits the other bottom dwellers when he behaves like this, using his daughter as an excuse to do so, behind the scenes.  He thinks he has rights!  Let’s not buy his personal problems as that excuse to behave badly here.  So far, I dread the first day he showed up here.  I wish he would just go away or get counciling at the University.  He has NOT made this news group any better after all his New Year wishes to everyone. Pathetic.  Truly pathetic and the soon everyone helps stop this kind of conduct will ROFF have a chance of becoming a pleasant place again. We will talk more about it tonight because ROFF has been a regular conversation at the chat site lately. George Gehrke — http://www.gink.com/chat

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Question:

Are there any likely hatches in south and central Vt on the last weekend in April?

Response:

With this being a mild year w/ relatively low water look for olives (#18-20), Paraleps, aka Blue Quills (#16-18), or Hendricksons and Red Quills (#12-14). Southern streams will see the hatches first. Good Luck

Response:

Are there any likely hatches in south and central Vt on the last weekend in April?

Joe, A reader provided you with some good info in the previous message.  To add to that, the Quill Gordon hatch can be very prolific and is one those of us up here in the north will tend to get excited about as there is not much of Quill Gordon hatch up north.  Quill Gordons will follow the little black caddis, early stones, then bwo’s and blue quills and then Quills!  You will generally need water around 52 to see Quill Gordons.  Hendrickson (female) and the Red Quill(male) usually are not seen until May when water temps are reaching 55-58.  However as the previous reader mentioned water is low up here and the run-off is over.  Mild sunny days are lifting the water temps everyday.   The bwo’s and blue quills will come off in the high 40’s.   If I have not confused you come up with some parachute adams sizes 12-18 to cover the quills, bwo’s and blue quills and a Hendrickson pattern ( we almost always use a parachute and trailing shuck except during a spinner fall.  Beadheaded nymphs are the call. Email me if you have any questions. James Ehlers Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service 1997 Guide of the Year Vermont Fly Fishing, Hunting, River and Woodland Outings http://pobox.com/~uncle

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Question:

I fish in the Chattahoochee River around Atlanta,GA.  Its fairly large and has some deep holes so some sort of float tube is very useful. I have had no problems with the donut style.  Though I can see the advantages of the U-boat, they do tend to be larger than the donut. I’m not a particulary large person (5′7′, 160 lbs) so I have not really seen the need for the U-boat.  Also part of this is that I do not do a lot true floating.  It serves more as a safety device and a way to float over to a mid-stream rock. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been tubing for about 12 years here in Michigan and like my good old ‘donut’ boat. The only thing I don’t like about it is getting in and out, and while flippin’ through thin, weedy and silty shorelines. I found the U-Boats to not support my legs underwater. I was always forcing my legs into the water where the donuts rest across the top of your legs. Others I’ve spoken to don’t feel as secure in the U-boats. I prefer a U-Boat. I don’t have either of the probs you mentioned. The U-Boat is much easier to get in and out of and I find ‘em generally more comfortable (then again I’m a pretty large mammal 6′4" ~230 . I can’t think of any reason to recommend a donut over a U for full sized adults. I have one made by the Creek Company. Quality is excellent. In general though, I’d say float tubes are just an awesome fishing tool and will enhance your experience no matter what type you decide to go with.

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have three doughnut tubes….all of which go unused since my purchase of a quality U boat.  Granted, mine was custom built for me….but my wife has a stock U boat and loves her as much as I love mine.  Neither of us would ever consider going back to a round tube.

Hi All float tubers, The U or V type boats have taken over here in Northern California. If you like to float tube lakes, then go look at a new Outcast ‘Super Fat Cat’ in person. Get it on the floor and really look at it. They have the same raised front end as a ‘Zodiac’ type boat has, so the water runs under the boat causing way less drag. This is the hottest thing to happen to the belly boat market in years. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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  By the way, the "stock model Stealth Riders ("V" boats from Wood River) are great.  I purchased one for my wife and she’s been really happy with it. Barry

I have to second this in a big way.  I have used a round tube for about ten years, and still cannot believe how much I like the wood river boats.   Probably the best part is how much easier they are to launch and land.   — Andrew Brunette

Response:

Some valve types require you to push and hold something for them to deflate. Tire-type valves fall into this category.  This means while your buddies watch their tubes deflate while sipping apprez-fishing drinks, you’ll be on the ground holding the valve and squeezing the air out. My old JW Outfitters has a Roberts valve like this but I think new ones are improved.

Just wanted to let you know that tire tube valves can be removes using a special wrench.  I have valve covers on mine that have the wrench built it.   Take the cover off, turn it over, take out the valve, go have a drink, and your tube will be deflated.  The wrenches/caps should be available at all car parts stores.  I think they’re under $2.  Make sure you get extra stems too as you’ll probably lose atleast a couple in a lifetime. Matthew           Matthew W Kaphan    http://home.sprintmail.com/~mwk            Silverdale, WA

Response:

As long as we’re on this thread, perhaps some folks would be willing to weigh in on the question — U-tube versus standard (doughnut)  float tube. I’m in the market, and trying to decide which way to go. I’ve used a standard tube, the U tube would be something new to me. David Shaffer Minneapolis, MN

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Some time ago, Pete Ross (Wood River Products), was seeking feedback on various tube designs and options.  Because I had used tubes for so many years, he sent prototypes to me to try out and make suggestions.  During this process, I found out what was best for me and had Pete build two of them….one for me and one for my father (who is 80 yrs old and still is an active float tuber).  By the way, the "stock model Stealth Riders ("V" boats from Wood River) are great.  I purchased one for my wife and she’s been really happy with it.

I’ve yakked some with Pete and his brother Greg myself. Nice guys – killer product. It’s neat you were part of the field test program. I have a couple of JW Outfitter pontoon boats,  plus their "Ultimate" model belly boat. Of the three, I prefer the old donut. Pontoons are a pain as far as I’m concerned- big, awkward, totally uncontrollable in wind. I’m unloading both of them for Wood River V-boats. For the kind of stillwater fishing I like to do  (small, high lakes) – Pete’s boats are the best: They’re fast, maneuverable, lightweight and comfortable. And of course, they’re a heck of a lot easier to get in and out of than the old donut. Thanks for the info, Dennis

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have three doughnut tubes….all of which go unused since my purchase of a quality U boat.  Granted, mine was custom built for me….but my wife has a stock U boat and loves her as much as I love mine.  Neither of us would ever consider going back to a round tube. Barry, how do you go about getting a float tube custom-built? Are you friends with the manufacturer? – or is this something anyone can have done? I’m really curious. Regards, Dennsi

Some time ago, Pete Ross (Wood River Products), was seeking feedback on various tube designs and options.  Because I had used tubes for so many years, he sent prototypes to me to try out and make suggestions.  During this process, I found out what was best for me and had Pete build two of them….one for me and one for my father (who is 80 yrs old and still is an active float tuber).  By the way, the "stock model Stealth Riders ("V" boats from Wood River) are great.  I purchased one for my wife and she’s been really happy with it. Barry

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I’ve been tubing for about 12 years here in Michigan and like my good old ‘donut’ boat. The only thing I don’t like about it is getting in and out, and while flippin’ through thin, weedy and silty shorelines. I found the U-Boats to not support my legs underwater. I was always forcing my legs into the water where the donuts rest across the top of your legs. Others I’ve spoken to don’t feel as secure in the U-boats.

(snip) Perhaps you’re not using the right U Boat or the one you tried was not the right size for you.  I’ve fished with float tubes for 40 yrs and have three doughnut tubes….all of which go unused since my purchase of a quality U boat.  Granted, mine was custom built for me….but my wife has a stock U boat and loves her as much as I love mine.  Neither of us would ever consider going back to a round tube. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Barry

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writes: Perhaps you’re not using the right U Boat or the one you tried was not the right size for you.  I’ve fished with float tubes for 40 yrs and have three doughnut tubes….all of which go unused since my purchase of a quality U boat.  Granted, mine was custom built for me….but my wife has a stock U boat and loves her as much as I love mine.  Neither of us would ever consider going back to a round tube. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Barry

I was out last week with a buddy and a "newbie" we brought along.  My buddy had a spare tube and was going through the rigamarole of getting the newcomer situated with fins, etc and telling him to be careful walking with the fins while he waddled towards the water.  I chuckled, grabbed my U-tube, fins and rod, walked into the thigh deep water, sat down, pulled on the fins and paddled away. I too, would never go back to a round tube. Brent

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As long as we’re on this thread, perhaps some folks would be willing to weigh in on the question — U-tube versus standard (doughnut)  float tube. I’m in the market, and trying to decide which way to go. I’ve used a standard tube, the U tube would be something new to me.

Take a long hard look at the "V" boats too. Wood River, in particular, has a hell of a product, and the Ross brothers are good people. Pete Ross invented the original U-boat, then "re-invented it in the form of the V-boat – only this time he patented the design before somebody else beat him to the punch. Check it out before you write your check.

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I’ve been tubing for about 12 years here in Michigan and like my good old ‘donut’ boat. The only thing I don’t like about it is getting in and out, and while flippin’ through thin, weedy and silty shorelines. I found the U-Boats to not support my legs underwater. I was always forcing my legs into the water where the donuts rest across the top of your legs. Others I’ve spoken to don’t feel as secure in the U-boats. The only time I would consider a pontoon (despite considerable pressure from those who sell them) is if I planned on fishing a lot of heavier running water. On lakes and ponds you have little directional stability without dropping your rod and paddling, and you are very much at the mercy of the wind. I ask a buddy on one of the pontoons where he was going as he paddled away, he said he was paddling up-wind so by the time he drifted (sailed!) back to our fishing area he would have a new fly tied on. With a float-tube you can fin like a fish, holding your direction while fishing or tying. You can chomp on a sandwich while finning to as new location or otherwise keep your feet busy while your hand do something else. That, to me, is the #1 drawback of pontoons. (the others being windage, cost, bulk, weight and complication. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After wrestling my canoe around today, I’ve decided that a float tube or pontoon outfit looks like a pretty good idea.  Funny.  I couldn’t handle the canoe on & off the vehicle as well as I did 20 years ago and, without an anchor to use when it’s windy, a canoe is a real handfull. I’ve watched fly fishermen on various lakes around here with both the tubes and pontoons.  I get the idea from visiting with various fishermen that the pontoons work a bit better.  But, it seems they’d be harder to haul.  I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee and a pontoon would kind of fill it up.   I would appreciate any ideas from those of you who have experience with either tubes or pontoons.   As always, please respond by e-mail as well as to the group.  I’d hate to miss any info because of my unreliable server.   Thanks, To reply, remove one "bs" from E-mail address

  I have a tube and will have a pontoon soon.  (also have a canoe, drift boat, and jet boat). The other posts are on the money on the relative merits of each.  I have demo’ed some pontoons and like the speed,  and warmth during the winter,  but they just aren’t as good of "fishing" platform.  They are not stealthy, require a lot of handling, won’t stay oriented so that you can pay attention to where the fish are.  I use a power boat to get to the general area where the fish are and then launch the tube for a more stealthy approach.  I think this is best on large waters.  On ponds and small lakes you might need the mobility of the pontoon, and of course on creeks and small rivers a pontoon is the only choice. Why choose?  Buy both.  Life if too short to have to live with only one or two "boats"

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 As always, please respond by e-mail as well as to the group.  I’d hate to miss any info because of my unreliable server.  Thanks,

Bob,         I’ve had a Browning Predator float tube for years and years, and really love it.  The only disadvantage I can find with the float tube is its inability to cover long distances quickly.  Otherwise, they are made for fly fishing!  It’s so nice being able to move, manuever,  WHILE  using both hands to fish.  I used to get so frustrated trying to pick up/put down paddles and anchor lines while trying to cast, retrieve, set the hook, etc., when fishing from my canoe.  It seems if you had to set down the paddle for a minute, the wind would spin you around in the most awkward direction, or blow you away from where you had to be.  Not so with the float tube. Bob Scott

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Tubes are better: 1. In high wind because they don’t have lots of area. Really important out west in Wyoming 2. Are cheaper 3. Easier to move, backpack 4. More stealthy during fishing. The fish are concerned about whats above them out of the water but seamingly unconcerned about your legs and flippers under the water. Pontoons are better 1. Can use oars and can move you around faster 2. More comfortable and keeps your butt out of cold water 3. Easier to cast from (your higher up) 4. Only way to go on a river 5. Can move you into shallower water since your body isn’t under the bladers I have a friend who owns a small Hobby hardside pontoon craft that he lashes down with four straps to his Grand Cherokee’s roof rack. Its much quicker then any belly boat. It also works well in the wind since it only sits about 4 inches above the water when he is in it. Perfect for lakes but it would be terribly dangerous on a river. I have both but put the pontoon boat (8 ft with large inflatable bladders) in rivers only. It killed me on Wyoming lakes. The wind pushed me so hard that the day turned into rowing exercise and not fishing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After wrestling my canoe around today, I’ve decided that a float tube or pontoon outfit looks like a pretty good idea.  Funny.  I couldn’t handle the canoe on & off the vehicle as well as I did 20 years ago and, without an anchor to use when it’s windy, a canoe is a real handfull. I’ve watched fly fishermen on various lakes around here with both the tubes and pontoons.  I get the idea from visiting with various fishermen that the pontoons work a bit better.  But, it seems they’d be harder to haul.  I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee and a pontoon would kind of fill it up.   I would appreciate any ideas from those of you who have experience with either tubes or pontoons.   As always, please respond by e-mail as well as to the group.  I’d hate to miss any info because of my unreliable server.   Thanks, To reply, remove one "bs" from E-mail address

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Bob, I have tried a few kinds so I’ll give some opinion on pros and cons. About the shapes, the advantages are also drawbacks; as in any boat design you have to decide what you want and compromise. A boat that can be easily propelled will help you get where you want, but will be harder to hold still in the wind to fish accurately. Float tube success with dries, nymphs, and leeches often depends on your staying as still as possible to present your fly as intended. All tubes are pretty good at this compared to a canoe fished solo. Anchors are a great equalizer but are objectionable for pulling up and leaving a mess of weeds.  All tube types are also great for trolling very slowly which will catch you a lot of fish. No matter what kind you pick, the type of valve is very important. It is a little bit of effort but you can blow up most non-donut types by mouth tight enough to fish. Someday this will make the difference between your tubing or not because pumps break or get forgotten. Tire type valves used in donut tubes I have seen cannot be blown up by mouth (please tell me different anyone who knows a way).  In my opinion the best valves are a large grey plastic thing with a spring button release, as used on whitewater rafts. The opening is very wide so you can blow them up by pump or mouth quickly, then you attach a fitting for a pump to bring it to very tight pressure. The spring release lets it deflate very quickly too.  I have seen these on SuperCat and Wood river tubes, and expect they are on many other models now.  Some valve types require you to push and hold something for them to deflate. Tire-type valves fall into this category.  This means while your buddies watch their tubes deflate while sipping apprez-fishing drinks, you’ll be on the ground holding the valve and squeezing the air out. My old JW Outfitters has a Roberts valve like this but I think new ones are improved.  Here are ones I have tried and the pros and cons: JW Outfitters – Osprey (their original model pontoon). Seat sits 4"+ from water, but sags and is slowed down if tubes and straps are not tight. You can just barely blow it up by mouth tight enough for good performance. Sitting so high is great for fishing, great in winter, this boat can be kicked pretty fast, but paddling it causes more surface commotion that you would if sitting deeper. It gets blown around in the wind as there is very little underwater resistance. But I can troll a half mile across a lake. The metal frame breaks down and it packs pretty small for travel, but not something you’d fit in a pack. Price was around $300 in 1994. Bucks Colt – this is a small stubby pontoon boat. The valves can be blown up by mouth but it is a contortion getting your mouth to them but it can be done. The seat is molded plastic and sits right at the surface, so your butt is colder and you miss the catamaran speed advantage of the real pontoon boats. The rigid seat makes this not the best for traveling.  Price was around $190 in 1996. Wood River V Boat – Faster than a donut tube but slower than a pontoon. Seat down in the water.  Very light and compact, about five pounds for the basic model with no pockets; this is the best tube I could find for backpacking. I think the V or U boat best for windy lakes as they have some of the directional stability of a pontoon with enough of you underwater to help hold in place. Needs to be pumped very tight for best performance because this one has no crossbar. Prices range from $180 to $250. Sevylor donut polyvinyl-$10-20 -the diaper tube. One last tip – to really get a tube tight by mouth only, blow it up in the cold night, or at elevation two to three thousand feet below where you will fish, and let temperature or elevation do the work for you. Are we tubers yet? Mark Vinsel www.vinsel.com   I would appreciate any ideas from those of you who have experience with either tubes or pontoons.   As always, please respond by e-mail as well as to the group.  I’d hate to miss any info because of my unreliable server.   Thanks, To reply, remove one "bs" from E-mail address

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After wrestling my canoe around today, I’ve decided that a float tube or pontoon outfit looks like a pretty good idea.  Funny.  I couldn’t handle the canoe on & off the vehicle as well as I did 20 years ago and, without an anchor to use when it’s windy, a canoe is a real handfull.   I’ve watched fly fishermen on various lakes around here with both the tubes and pontoons.  I get the idea from visiting with various fishermen that the pontoons work a bit better.  But, it seems they’d be harder to haul.  I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee and a pontoon would kind of fill it up.   I would appreciate any ideas from those of you who have experience with either tubes or pontoons.   As always, please respond by e-mail as well as to the group.  I’d hate to miss any info because of my unreliable server.   Thanks, To reply, remove one "bs" from E-mail address

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Bob, My preference is the tube. I feel I can maneuver a tube a little bit better than I can the pontoon. Although on long floats I always take the pontoon. Sitting in the water all day, especially in the winter, can be sort of a pain. Keep in mind that I’m float in rivers mostly. I think if I fished in lakes I would go with the pontoon. J.W. Outfitters has a pontoon called the "Scout" that weighs about 20lbs. The step up weighs 42lbs. but has a few more features, like the load capacity is greater. Hope this helps. Kevin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After wrestling my canoe around today, I’ve decided that a float tube or pontoon outfit looks like a pretty good idea.  Funny.  I couldn’t handle the canoe on & off the vehicle as well as I did 20 years ago and, without an anchor to use when it’s windy, a canoe is a real handfull. I’ve watched fly fishermen on various lakes around here with both the tubes and pontoons.  I get the idea from visiting with various fishermen that the pontoons work a bit better.  But, it seems they’d be harder to haul.  I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee and a pontoon would kind of fill it up.   I would appreciate any ideas from those of you who have experience with either tubes or pontoons.   As always, please respond by e-mail as well as to the group.  I’d hate to miss any info because of my unreliable server.   Thanks, To reply, remove one "bs" from E-mail address

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I am considering purchasing a float tube.  Any suggestions or comments as to brand or model?

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I am considering purchasing a float tube.  Any suggestions or comments as to brand or model?

I’ve used a Buck’s Bag model "Hi & Dri" for four years now and am very happy with it.  I’ve avoided "buying up" to the more expensive (and cumbersome) u-tubes, pontoons, etc.  I haven’t seen anyone mention it yet but I find the front of the donut shaped tube acts as a good fulcrum to brace your knee against when paddling. For fins I’d recommend the Caddis version that you lace on.  They’re a lot less expensive than the Force Fins and just as efficient (and they float).  I own both types and never use the Force Fins anymore. I use Cabella’s 3 mm waders.  They are relatively inexpensive, durable and comfortable.  I’d also recommend getting a pair of Glacier Boots to save wear on the waders. Good Luck – float tubing’s great fun. Mike

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I am considering purchasing a float tube.  Any suggestions or comments as to brand or model?

I own a Buck’s Bag and am happy with it.  However, many ff’ers are starting to go with kick boats instead of float tubes.  They are much safer in whitewater but are tougher to carry to a remote lake.

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I am going to get one.  I have a friend that wants to sell his or I might spend a little more on a "V" shape one. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

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I saw 2 float tubes in sportsmans guide, one was a pontoon style, 70 bucks, and the other was a traditional style, 50 bucks? something in that range… www.sportsmansguide.com     i think

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I am going to get one.  I have a friend that wants to sell his or I might spend a little more on a "V" shape one. –

Vern, Have you tried his tube out? Just wondered since you describe yourself as vertically challenged and I find in my tube that I like the crotch strap as tight as possible so I sit up as high as possible in the tube. That way my elbows don’t have to be raised up to cast over the tube which is more tiring. I’m 6′4". Now this is likely a peculiarity of my own since I am above average height but if you are below average you might not enjoy being down inside the tube donut- just in general.  It might be that you would enjoy the V type more since they provide better flotation and you aren’t as enclosed. Just a thought. Cheers. Jon

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Thanks for the info. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

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choc…hot dog??  i got the vienna sausage lecture. jeff   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was at a place in the tropics that liked to feed hot dogs to a moray eel by the reef. They cautioned people not to point their finger at it and, of course, recommended that the males leave their trunks on. — Charlie…

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Vern –         I’ve always had really good luck with my Buck’s Bags float tubes.  I own a Hi&Dry Giant and a Top Gun, and both have proven to be real workhorses.   I use them primarily on small warmwater lakes and ponds, and other than a Cottonmouth trying to climb in with me once, I haven’t had any problems with the quality or workmanship. There’s a downside to float tubes, though, and it may be a bigger issue for you than some others.   You’ve been quite open about your size, and while I’m not trying to offend, you might have a few problems with a traditional float tube as a result.   I’m 5-10, and I have problems launching one.   I have a much bigger problem in that if you do manage to lose a fin, or get discarded monofilament wrapped around your legs, or something similar,  it can be a total bitch to deal with unless you have long arms.   The tube itself is VERY difficult to reach around, and trying to reach down through it doesn’t work well either.         I saw a couple of very nice designs out on Ebay recently, and both are designed around the concept of "pontoon" craft.  Caddis has one that is similar to a traditional belly boat, but rather than having a donut-shaped tube, it has a pontoon down either side. There’s also one out there that is made by the Creek Company, which has a fairly common "U-Boat" design but uses pontoons that are several feet long,  This unit actually looks to give you a seat about 5" above the water, which can make a lot of difference if you’re fishing cold-water lakes for trout.   I haven’t fished out of one, but it looks quite good.         No matter which boat you get, you’ll love it.  Once you get used to controlling the boat with your feet, it’s like having the ultimate mind-reading guide to put the boat "just exactly" where you want it at all times.  I use mine a lot, and wouldn’t give them up.                                 Michael – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m in the search of my first float tube.  So, all this information is very nice.  What I wanted to say was, I saw a man using a small trolling motor.  Another man that I saw was using a depth gauge/fish finder.  What are the problems using either of these to items in a float tube?

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_____  Nice read Mike.  Thank you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Vern –         I’ve always had really good luck with my Buck’s Bags float tubes.  I own a Hi&Dry Giant and a Top Gun, and both have proven to be real workhorses.   I use them primarily on small warmwater lakes and ponds, and other than a Cottonmouth trying to climb in with me once, I haven’t had any problems with the quality or workmanship. There’s a downside to float tubes, though, and it may be a bigger issue for you than some others.   You’ve been quite open about your size, and while I’m not trying to offend, you might have a few problems with a traditional float tube as a result.   I’m 5-10, and I have problems launching one.   I have a much bigger problem in that if you do manage to lose a fin, or get discarded monofilament wrapped around your legs, or something similar,  it can be a total bitch to deal with unless you have long arms.   The tube itself is VERY difficult to reach around, and trying to reach down through it doesn’t work well either.         I saw a couple of very nice designs out on Ebay recently, and both are designed around the concept of "pontoon" craft.  Caddis has one that is similar to a traditional belly boat, but rather than having a donut-shaped tube, it has a pontoon down either side. There’s also one out there that is made by the Creek Company, which has a fairly common "U-Boat" design but uses pontoons that are several feet long,  This unit actually looks to give you a seat about 5" above the water, which can make a lot of difference if you’re fishing cold-water lakes for trout.   I haven’t fished out of one, but it looks quite good.         No matter which boat you get, you’ll love it.  Once you get used to controlling the boat with your feet, it’s like having the ultimate mind-reading guide to put the boat "just exactly" where you want it at all times.  I use mine a lot, and wouldn’t give them up.                                 Michael I’m in the search of my first float tube.  So, all this information is very nice.  What I wanted to say was, I saw a man using a small trolling motor.  Another man that I saw was using a depth gauge/fish finder.  What are the problems using either of these to items in a float tube?

– Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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Wolfgang wrote;snip  I have, on three separate occasions been bitten on the nipple by blue gills while wading at beaches in different parts of the country.

I have no nipple patterns, but I think you can see why I believe that if there were 10 pound bluegills no one would swim in the lakes. Big Dale

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In a related note, has anyone used those tubes which seem to be a composite between the pontoon boats and the float tubes? They are more or less like pontoon boats but have no frame, are lighter and generally smaller and cheaper. Any good? Jon

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Might I recommend instead that you simply wear a shirt next time. I’d hate to think what would have happened had you not been wearing any shorts.

I was at a place in the tropics that liked to feed hot dogs to a moray eel by the reef. They cautioned people not to point their finger at it and, of course, recommended that the males leave their trunks on. — Charlie…

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<< Fred, interesting you mention this.   I have found that the fish ignore my presence when in a float tube.   I have noticed the same thing.  One of the lakes I fish is a high pressure C&R lake.  While pondering the meaning of life, where my beer was and when I was going to stop for lunch one day, I had a 20+ rainbow come up and sip a midge not more then a foot away from my tube.  The water was relatively shallow here too. One of the great pleasure of float tubing has been the ability to observe fish cruising and feeding. You miss most of this while in a boat. Mike

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Fred, interesting you mention this.   I have found that the fish ignore my presence when in a float tube.  The lakes that I fish are pretty clear and I have had fish swim under me several times.  A couple have even stayed under me.

Warren, I agree that fish can and do ignore us, including me standing still in my boat, on occasion, but not when rowing or, I suspect, you come along kicking those big, black, cormorant-like fins.  But I have also seen a person kicking in a tube just move the school along at a constant distance until the fish disperse.  I fish a shallow lake, Davis (Oregon) at 8-9 ft mostly, and the fish that my boat do not spook are the smaller ones.  If I want to sneak up on something 5-6+ lbs, I have to get down on my knees and just paddle with an oar over the side.  And I can just about guarantee you that tubers never, or very rarely, get into a really large fish unless they are well into their backing on a slow troll. Fred

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…I have found that the fish ignore my presence when in a float tube….

And it seems that the deeper you are in the water, the less likely fish are to be disturbed by your presence.  I have, on three separate occasions been bitten on the nipple by blue gills while wading at beaches in different parts of the country.

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And it seems that the deeper you are in the water, the less likely fish are to be disturbed by your presence.  I have, on three separate occasions been bitten on the nipple by blue gills while wading at beaches in different parts of the country.

Might I recommend instead that you simply wear a shirt next time. I’d hate to think what would have happened had you not been wearing any shorts. –Steve | Support project KILLFILE for the chance to win | a new bamboo flyrod! Remove meniscus from my | email address to contact me regarding the project.

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    Hi, Am new to the newsgroup and have not seen anything about float tubing.

Some folks like to carry an onion sack and fill it with rocks for an anchor.  I reserve the float tube for warm calm days in the summer when I can sit around in the tube wearing shorts and t-shirt.

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very nice.  What I wanted to say was, I saw a man using a small trolling motor.  Another man that I saw was using a depth gauge/fish finder.  What are the problems using either of these to items in a float tube?

Personally, it seems like too much of a hassle.  I like the float tube because of its simplicity.  I leave it partly inflated in the garage. Throw it in the back of the truck with a pair of snorkel fins and I’m ready to fish.  I typically borrow a canoe if I need to cover more water. As far as the sonar device is concerned, most of the ponds I fish are small enough that I can ususally figure out after a few trips what the underwater topology is like.   Mu

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Just one suggestion.  Since you will probably not learn to cast (that’s OK, just a fact), don’t ever try and troll close to a school of rising fish, surrounded by folks standing in boats casting maybe 50-70 feet to those fish. Don’t ever believe that since you are close to the water the fish can’t see you, as all you will do is either put the feeding off, or just move the fish out of range of the casters, and the language can then make a mess of a beautiful day.  Have fun, and put ‘em back when you are through playing with them. Fred. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Hi, Am new to the newsgroup and have not seen anything about float tubing.Went out for the first time and spent whole time finning to stay correctly to the wind. Must do more of it. You’re right down there with the fish close to the water and peace abounds. Any oldtimers with tube experience please respond/  Hugh

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Don’t ever believe that since you are close to the water the fish can’t see you, as all you will do is either put the feeding off, or just move the fish out of range of the casters, and the language can then make a mess of a beautiful day.

Fred, interesting you mention this.   I have found that the fish ignore my presence when in a float tube.  The lakes that I fish are pretty clear and I have had fish swim under me several times.  A couple have even stayed under me.  I ended up jigging for them and caught one.  My friend and I are always amazed when we see the cutts and grayling swim underneath us.  We tend to be able to spot the fish we would most like to catch and kind of keep track of them and the rest of the pod. As a matter of fact, one time I was out of woolly buggers except for the one I had on and got hung up on a log.  I ended up finning my way into position so I could retrieve my bugger and went right over the pod of fish.  When I was done I went to another position, not wanting to tempt fate twice, and proceeded to catch fish who were still in the same position. Maybe in waters where the fish are constantly being buzzed by boats and such things are different.  The lakes I tube require hiking and have no boat launches so maybe are unaccustomed to floating objects. If nothing else, my experience shows the other end of the spectrum I guess. But I do agree with the part about getting too close to rising fish surrounded by people and just rising fish in general.   Warren Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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I’m in the search of my first float tube.  So, all this information is very nice.  What I wanted to say was, I saw a man using a small trolling motor.  Another man that I saw was using a depth gauge/fish finder.  What are the problems using either of these to items in a float tube? — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

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_______  You ask some very interesting innocent questions Vern. I happen to own one of those electric trolling driven float tube motorized systems.  There are some who are physically incapable or who need help to get around a pond or lake because of leg problems, heart problems, or whatever.  The gauge/fish finder is a bit much regarding using too much technology in a sport that requires we use our wits, we experiment and we suffer the slings and arrows in order to be successful.  Those who use fish finders in float tube are basically fishing for the wrong reasons but in my opinion, sae-la-vie!  To each his own.  (I imagine I spelled that wrong and I will hear about it?) Did I say . . . "slings and arrows?"   Duck!  Here they come Vern! LOL! Mr. G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m in the search of my first float tube.  So, all this information is very nice.  What I wanted to say was, I saw a man using a small trolling motor.  Another man that I saw was using a depth gauge/fish finder.  What are the problems using either of these to items in a float tube? — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

– Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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Hi Vern, I have used a Buck’s Bag belly boat for some 15 odd yrs now and find it a relaxing way to fish.  A lower back problem has plagued me for 20 yrs or more (too many hrs on the road!) but after 1 or 2 hrs in the float tube all the pain or discomfort are magically gone.  My first Buck’s Bag was stolen out of my hatchback Toyota while I was at work one day, and it was immediately replaced. (I couldn’t be without it) The only damage ever suffered was one day I left it in my Toyota inflated (in Florida, no less) and came back 8 hrs later to find the denier outer-covering split wide open by the heat-expanded truck inner tube. A quick trip to an awning shop had it sewn up and good as new. Living in LV could produce the same results if you store your tube fully inflated in the sun. I still have and use my Buck’s Bag, the denier outer covering is sun-faded, but all the zippers still work and the stitching is still in place.  As a safety precaution, replace the inner tube at least once every 2 yrs or so, and never store it completely deflated (the creases in the tube will eventually start to show small cracks) and that ain’t good. I don’t have a problem with mounting "gadgets", ie: trolling motor or depth finder, but that is just something else for your flyline to catch on when casting. BTW, the depth finder *is* sort of a "fish finder" as it’s primary use is to let you see bottom structure, thus in an obtuse way, is a "fish finder." I’ve always had the notion of mounting a depth finder, but just can’t bring myself to add stuff to a "clean" platform. Cabela’s sells 1 and 3 pound anchors just for float tubes and/or pontoon boats, a good investment IMO. Just one other caveat, buy flippers that are designed for float tubes, not something meant for scuba diving. The droopy tips on the scuba fins will trip you up in fine style on your first attempt to get in the tube.  Be sure to draw a crowd and sell tickets if you use the wrong fins, because you will surely put on a fine comic act in just getting in your tube!  Get one Vern, you won’t regret it. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED I’m in the search of my first float tube.  So, all this information is very nice.  What I wanted to say was, I saw a man using a small trolling motor.  Another man that I saw was using a depth gauge/fish finder.  What are the problems using either of these to items in a float tube? — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html

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Excellent thread started by Hugh: Snipped some to save space: The final step is choosing where you want to fish.  Look for structure areas like points, bays and rock slides.  Weed beds are also a great place to fish over and around.  I usually put on a wooly bugger and fish deep as I paddle towards my destination (forgive me George, I know you consider this trolling but I find it highly effective!).  This lets me search the water and experiment with patterns as I move around.  Once you find your hot spot you can cast into and work the bank with either line. If you have any more questions feel free to email me. Mike, Spokane, WA

______  Mike, you reminded me of another thing I do sometimes and that is to carry a compass with me when tubing in a lake or large pond. Paddling backwards, sometimes can be difficult because one may have to keep turning around to keep on coarse. I will make this example simple.  If I want to paddle backwards 360 degrees we know we only have to look down at the compass and keep the needle on 180 degrees or the reciprocal of the heading you want.  Its not often we need to do this, but there are times getting around an area is made easy by simply having one.  No big deal, but I usually have one in one of my storage bags . . . just in case Hugh, and Mike. Nuff said. — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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<<   Hi, Am new to the newsgroup and have not seen anything about float tubing.Went out for the first time and spent whole time finning to stay correctly to the wind. Must do more of it. You’re right down there with the fish close to the water and peace abounds. Any oldtimers with tube experience please respond/  Hugh Hugh, welcome to one of the most relaxing ways to fish.  I float tube extensively during the warm months and sometimes during the not so warm months. George pretty much covered the how to’s of using a tube.  The only thing I might add is that take a bit of time before you launch to determine where you want to go and observe what is happening. It is a lot like fishing a river. Turn over a few rocks in the shallows to see what insects are living there. Like George mentioned, scuds are often quite abundent.  Are the chironimids hatching or is there a mayfly hatch occuring.  If you figure that out you can form your strategy. Having an idea how you want to fish really comes in handy in choosing a floating vs. sinking line.  If little to no surface action then I go with a sinking line and a wooly bugger or scud imitation.  Lots of chironimids or other surface action then I go ontop.  I prefer to carry a second rod in my rod holder strung up with a floating line and use a sinking line on my primary rod.  Changing lines in a float tube is a drag!! The final step is choosing where you want to fish.  Look for structure areas like points, bays and rock slides.  Weed beds are also a great place to fish over and around.  I usually put on a wooly bugger and fish deep as I paddle towards my destination (forgive me George, I know you consider this trolling but I find it highly effective!).  This lets me search the water and experiment with patterns as I move around.  Once you find your hot spot you can cast into and work the bank with either line. If you have any more questions feel free to email me. Mike, Spokane, WA

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    Hi, Am new to the newsgroup and have not seen anything about float tubing.Went out for the first time and spent whole time finning to stay correctly to the wind. Must do more of it. You’re right down there with the fish close to the water and peace abounds. Any oldtimers with tube experience please respond/  Hugh

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    Hi, Am new to the newsgroup and have not seen anything about float tubing.Went out for the first time and spent whole time finning to stay correctly to the wind. Must do more of it. You’re right down there with the fish close to the water and peace abounds. Any oldtimers with tube experience please respond/  Hugh

Tubing has had many books written about the subject and I suppose I could write a few chapter here and now myself for you. The primary secret to float tubing is staying warm.  If the tube is moving, you’re trolling.  If your still in the water and casting, you’re fly fishing.  You have to think in patterns that imitate lake and pond life.  Leaches and minnow patterns and thinking more like a lake rather than a river will assist you into that direction.  Look into having and/or tying fairy shrimp and Crawdads patterns.  The flesh of the fish you’re catching will tell you what they are usually eating.  If the flesh is pink, their primary diet are crustaceans which contain predominantly aquatic arthropods such as crabs, shrimps and shelled exoskeleton forms of life.  These have high protein value.  The fact that few tubers tie flies to imitate snails amuses me. You may wish to carry a light anchor and if you know the wind, and the lake is large, you may want to think about using two vehicles, the second is the one the wind will eventually carry you two which could be two three miles away. You will use a lot of calories to stay warm.  As warm as the water will feel, any time it is below your ambient body temperature, body heat is slowly being sucked out of your body.  You will need to pack carbohydrates such as bread sandwiches to keep your calorie count up. Getting cold is the one thing that can ruin tubing.  Another thing is always wear a life vest and always carry a RAZOR SHARP knife on your person.   Make sure you can get out of a damaged tube and that may not be as easy as you think.  Until you are highly experienced, stay close together and fish in a buddy system.  Your fishing buddy should never be more than a minute paddling from you. Another thing is you will do best with a long fly rod like a 9.5′er for a 5 WT.  You really don’t need a long rod but to have a casting advantage because your butt is setting in the water, a longer fly rod is a big help.  Also, you have fighting leverage. Remember, you can tie into a huge fish with a tube then you may know and sooner than you think. Look at your tube design and make sure you have straps you can pull to set you free if necessary.  If the design isn’t safe to get in and out of, consider other designs. Also, while fishing, you may want to make sure you can change fly lines from floating, to sink tip to full sinking.  The STH cassette design may be just the ticket for you to look at next time you go to your pro shop.  The STH is an excellent float tube design reel.  You have all your spools in storage and its a simple matter to change them while in the middle of a lake or pond.  Always safety your fly rod somehow so that if you drop it in the water you have a thither on it somewhere, somehow.   I’m just rambling here as I think of things for you to know and maybe this will get others to add onto the thread what I cannot possibly recall in one setting. I don’t know what the latest books are, but ordering from Barnes or Amazon a couple of them might be wise.  I’m sure other fly fishermen will be more up to date in that area than I. Hope this is enough to get you kick started, but I think you should ask for some good fly patterns for ponds and lakes in ROFFT.  You will need a good dragon fly and damsel fly pattern including the nymphs.  The subject is endless. Good luck to both of you.  You sound like my kind of people.  If I can help in any other way, please feel free to contact me via E-Mail.  Don’t forget to take pictures and don’t forget to buy a water proof camera and don’t forget to get real close to each other when you take that picture.  Count one,two,three – lift the fish, snap the picture with water still streaming off it, and bingo!  You’ve got it! — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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Does anyone out ther have any idea where I can find a set of plans to make my own float tube? The truck inner tube is no problem but I need help in getting the covering material to the right shape so it covers the shape of the tube without kinks and folds. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Joe

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: Does anyone out ther have any idea where I can find a set of plans to : make my own float tube? : The truck inner tube is no problem but I need help in getting the : covering material to the right shape so it covers the shape of the : tube without kinks and folds. For all the bother it would take, I think that it would be better and almost no extra cost to just buy one. Prices start at about $100 for a decent tube with two air chambers. — Jon Porter

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Question:

I was at the Orvis Factory outlet (almost all clothes) in Williamsburg this weekend.  In the back of the store was at least 50 cloth rod tubes of different lengths selling for $15.  I waited about 4 months last year on an Orvis "back-order" before cancelling and getting one in 3 days from Cabella’s.

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I was at the Orvis Factory outlet (almost all clothes) in Williamsburg this weekend.  In the back of the store was at least 50 cloth rod tubes of different lengths selling for $15.  I waited about 4 months last year on an Orvis "back-order" before cancelling and getting one in 3 days from Cabella’s.

The point being? Mike

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I was at the Orvis Factory outlet (almost all clothes) in Williamsburg this weekend.  In the back of the store was at least 50 cloth rod tubes of different lengths selling for $15.  I waited about 4 months last year on an Orvis "back-order" before cancelling and getting one in 3 days from Cabella’s.

I hope you went straight to the manager to point this out. They need to know when they F’up and loose business!

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I was at the Orvis Factory outlet (almost all clothes) in Williamsburg this weekend.  In the back of the store was at least 50 cloth rod tubes of different lengths selling for $15.  I waited about 4 months last year on an Orvis "back-order" before cancelling and getting one in 3 days from Cabella’s.

I had a similar experience with Orvis vise jaw. I waited a year for a reply and when one was not forthcoming, I went to Manchester, VT, and a clerk grabbedone out of a drawer for me. I am now getting the run around on a reel repair. Most other companies would have repaired or made good on there product. I will never buy another Orvis product. They don’t stand behind them and they change models maufacturers too often.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was at the Orvis Factory outlet (almost all clothes) in Williamsburg this weekend.  In the back of the store was at least 50 cloth rod tubes of different lengths selling for $15.  I waited about 4 months last year on an Orvis "back-order" before cancelling and getting one in 3 days from Cabella’s. The point being? Mike

that Orvis sucks and obviously doesn’t deserve your business? (I’ve got my own opinions) Ralph H

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<snip I hope you went straight to the manager to point this out. They need to know when they F’up and loose business!

Factory outlets sell mostly seconds and discontinued items. Maybe Orvis’ quality control is too stringent instead of ‘loose’<g. Charlie…

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Sounds like you are a Cabela’s customer.  Loser.

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I hope you went straight to the manager to point this out. They need to know when they F’up and loose business!

I’m in the catalog retail business (not FF or outdoors related) and I wouldn’t bother to go "to the manager."  over 90% of all dissatified customers simply walk away, voting with their feet and wallets.  The vendor that doesn’t know that is in the wrong business.  I used to love Orvis, still love the products, but recognize that no one is watching anymore, as their service degradation is apparent.  I could not believe that even the level of on site customer service in Manchester is in the toilet.  Have you seen that TV commercial where the sign "WE’RE NUMBER 1" falls into disrepair and says "WE’RE NUMB" ? too true jg

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I was at the Orvis Factory outlet (almost all clothes) in Williamsburg this weekend.  In the back of the store was at least 50 cloth rod tubes of different lengths selling for $15.  I waited about 4 months last year on an Orvis "back-order" before cancelling and getting one in 3 days from Cabella’s.

 According to Orvis, the purpose of the outlet chain is clothing, not tackle, which the disposition of, they are keeping a closely guarded secret.  I was certainly not at the tent sale last year. jg

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How does one pronounce that anyway ? or’ i fis ? TimW

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Sounds like you are a Cabela’s customer.  Loser.

I can only hope that you’re kidding. TimW

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Sounds like you are a Cabela’s customer.  Loser.

Sounds like you’re an Orvis customer. Broker?  :-) — Bob Jarvis Mail addresses hacked to foil automailers!

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I was at the Orvis Factory outlet (almost all clothes) in Williamsburg this weekend.  In the back of the store was at least 50 cloth rod tubes of different lengths selling for $15.  I waited about 4 months last year on an Orvis "back-order" before cancelling and getting one in 3 days from Cabella’s.

I think that Cabella’s and Orvis both have a good, overall reputation for customer satisfaction or they would not be so successful. Everybody screws up once and a while. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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: Sounds like you are a Cabela’s customer.  Loser. Guess I don’t care to be a ‘winner’ in your books — I just got some big s/w hooks and bright hackle and marabou from Cabelas — all set to tie some big pike flies for my June Canada trip. Now I just need to get a real job so I can buy a 9wt rig. JonCook.

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Stopped by my local Orvis dealer today OUT OF BUSINESS!!! Drove an hour each way just to get there, Only one Orvis left in my area now. –     GOING BROKE    on Fur & Feathers!  

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I just bought an Orvis ‘Fullflex ‘A’ 7′ 6wt rod. It’s got a plain cork handle with a simple two hoop reel hook up, no real mount or anything… but, I’m wondering, it looks like it may be a fiberglass rod. I don’t know if Orvis makes a fiberglass rod. I can’t find this one in any catalog.

Fullflex was the name of Orvis’s house brand fiberglass rod approx. 1970. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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I just bought an Orvis ‘Fullflex ‘A’ 7′ 6wt rod. It’s got a plain cork handle with a simple two hoop reel hook up, no real mount or anything… but, I’m wondering, it looks like it may be a fiberglass rod. I don’t know if Orvis makes a fiberglass rod. I can’t find this one in any catalog. It’s a 4 piece rod… can anyone offer me any insights as to how much they cost and do they make them any more, and also, is it glass or is it graphite? Thanks in advance.

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Unable to locate Orvis’s catalog address in any of the popular outdoor magazines could someone please post their mailing address. Also unable to locate address of Flyfishing magazine. Flyfishing is evidently not that popular in KS.If someone would post the subscription address and price it would be appreciated.

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Query Orvis catalog to: Points North Fly Fishing Outfitters an Orvis dealer in the Berkshires P.O. Box 146 Adams, MA 01220 Kevin Moran

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1-800-548-9548 will get you a catalog. Jim Elias Blue Grass IA H.Y.M.R.

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