Question:

Hard to compare a 50.00 pair of pants to an 800.00 appliance.

Cabelas should take an example from L.L.Bean.  While in high school I

bought  a pair of wool hunting pants with leather lined pockets.  About ten years later (I had gone into the Navy) I found them in

my closet.  The pants were in great shape but the leather pockets had dry rotted and fell apart.   Okay, they repair there boots

I’ll call and see if I can get a new set of pockets (I fully expected to pay).  L.L.Bean said to send them the pants and they would

look at them.   A month later I get a new pair in the mail with a letter saying that satisfaction is garrenteed for life and they

felt the leather should have outlasted the wool.  No Charge! When you are a top of the line company and treat your customers like your

job depends on each one (which it does) you form a brand – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – loyalty that makes your company solid and secure. — Bill Pentheny Adams Co. (Pa) Bassmasters Chesapeake Bay Retriever Relief & Rescue www.cbrrescue.org

Response:

Walter! L L Bean, Pants, $50.00? I need the catalog they send you. Best Mike N

Response:

Cabelas should take an example from L.L.Bean.  While in high school I bought  a pair of wool hunting pants with leather lined pockets.  About ten years later (I had gone into the Navy) I found them in my closet.  The pants were in great shape but the leather pockets had dry rotted and fell apart.   Okay, they repair there boots I’ll call and see if I can get a new set of pockets (I fully expected to pay).  L.L.Bean said to send them the pants and they would look at them.   A month later I get a new pair in the mail with a letter saying that satisfaction is garrenteed for life and they felt the leather should have outlasted the wool.  No Charge! When you are a top of the line company and treat your customers like your job depends on each one (which it does) you form a brand loyalty that makes your company solid and secure. — Bill Pentheny Adams Co. (Pa) Bassmasters Chesapeake Bay Retriever Relief & Rescue www.cbrrescue.org

Response:

Maybe it is just me, but seems fair.  Buy something, do not get around to using it for a year, see the same thing for less or a better item, send back old unit for full credit.  Looks to me like a way for a company to end up Enron Style. As to Cabelas.  Ordered a reconditioned MinnKota 65 AP -60" shaft last Thursday.  They said should be here on the 16th.  Arrived today, $13 shipping for both items (also bought a retractable mount) from Nebraska to Calif. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, despite my best efforts in discussing this with Cabelas, it turns out they will NOT let me exchange my Minn Kota for the one with the internal transducer.  Darn!  They apparently have a 60-day window after purchase & will not help once the 60 days have passed.  I really thought they might help me since I explained that the motor is still in the box.  So fellas, remember this policy.  That motor was $750+, so apparently "how good a customer you are" plays no part in this policy.  I don’t know how this experience will affect my future orders with Cabelas.  Opinions? Warren2 Thanks fellas, I like what I’m hearing.  I’m gonna give this a go & let y’all know how I make out. Warren2 I can only say I buy almost exclusively from Cabaleas because of their excellent service. I bought two Guest chargers  from them and both  of them was faulty One wouldn’t shut off and the other wouldn’t charge I Called them and told them I couldn’t get to it as it was at my cottage 500 miles away. No problem  I got a replacement and it too was faulty  I sent them all back at this time and got credit. I had to eat the battery the charger burned up but this was not Cabaleas fault. I ended up ordering two new Duel Pro Chargers and haven’t had any further problems The point is the girl said she would make a note on my acct of the bad chargers and  she did. Cabeleas gets a A+ in my book I will be ordering my new fish finder from their as well as some fly fishing equipment. Their good service will net them several hundred dollars in sales from me JMO — Highlander

Response:

You are 100% correct in saying this Bill, I won’t hold it against Cabelas. It’s been 5 months or so, not quite a year.  I’m just cryin the blues I guess, it’s been a rough week old buddy. Warren2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe it is just me, but seems fair.  Buy something, do not get around to using it for a year, see the same thing for less or a better item, send back old unit for full credit.  Looks to me like a way for a company to end up Enron Style. As to Cabelas.  Ordered a reconditioned MinnKota 65 AP -60" shaft last Thursday.  They said should be here on the 16th.  Arrived today, $13 shipping for both items (also bought a retractable mount) from Nebraska to Calif. Bill Well, despite my best efforts in discussing this with Cabelas, it turns out they will NOT let me exchange my Minn Kota for the one with the internal transducer.  Darn!  They apparently have a 60-day window after purchase & will not help once the 60 days have passed.  I really thought they might help me since I explained that the motor is still in the box.  So fellas, remember this policy.  That motor was $750+, so apparently "how good a customer you are" plays no part in this policy.  I don’t know how this experience will affect my future orders with Cabelas.  Opinions? Warren2 Thanks fellas, I like what I’m hearing.  I’m gonna give this a go & let y’all know how I make out. Warren2 I can only say I buy almost exclusively from Cabaleas because of their excellent service. I bought two Guest chargers  from them and both  of them was faulty One wouldn’t shut off and the other wouldn’t charge I Called them and told them I couldn’t get to it as it was at my cottage 500 miles away. No problem  I got a replacement and it too was faulty  I sent them all back at this time and got credit. I had to eat the battery the charger burned up but this was not Cabaleas fault. I ended up ordering two new Duel Pro Chargers and haven’t had any further problems The point is the girl said she would make a note on my acct of the bad chargers and  she did. Cabeleas gets a A+ in my book I will be ordering my new fish finder from their as well as some fly fishing equipment. Their good service will net them several hundred dollars in sales from me JMO — Highlander

Response:

Well, despite my best efforts in discussing this with Cabelas, it turns out they will NOT let me exchange my Minn Kota for the one with the internal transducer.  Darn!  They apparently have a 60-day window after purchase & will not help once the 60 days have passed.  I really thought they might help me since I explained that the motor is still in the box.  So fellas, remember this policy.  That motor was $750+, so apparently "how good a customer you are" plays no part in this policy.  I don’t know how this experience will affect my future orders with Cabelas.  Opinions? Warren2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks fellas, I like what I’m hearing.  I’m gonna give this a go & let y’all know how I make out. Warren2 I can only say I buy almost exclusively from Cabaleas because of their excellent service. I bought two Guest chargers  from them and both  of them was faulty  One wouldn’t shut off and the other wouldn’t charge I Called them and told them I couldn’t get to it as it was at my cottage 500 miles away. No problem  I got a replacement and it too was faulty  I sent them all back at this time and got credit. I had to eat the battery the charger burned up but this was not Cabaleas fault. I ended up ordering two new Duel Pro Chargers and haven’t had any further problems The point is the girl said she would make a note on my acct of the bad chargers and  she did. Cabeleas gets a A+ in my book I will be ordering my new fish finder from their as well as some fly fishing equipment. Their good service will net them several hundred dollars in sales from me JMO — Highlander

Response:

Thanks fellas, I like what I’m hearing.  I’m gonna give this a go & let y’all know how I make out. Warren2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can only say I buy almost exclusively from Cabaleas because of their excellent service. I bought two Guest chargers  from them and both  of them was faulty  One wouldn’t shut off and the other wouldn’t charge I Called them and told them I couldn’t get to it as it was at my cottage 500 miles away. No problem  I got a replacement and it too was faulty  I sent them all back at this time and got credit. I had to eat the battery the charger burned up but this was not Cabaleas fault. I ended up ordering two new Duel Pro Chargers and haven’t had any further problems The point is the girl said she would make a note on my acct of the bad chargers and  she did. Cabeleas gets a A+ in my book I will be ordering my new fish finder from their as well as some fly fishing equipment. Their good service will net them several hundred dollars in sales from me JMO — Highlander

Response:

I can only say I buy almost exclusively from Cabaleas because of their excellent service. I bought two Guest chargers  from them and both  of them was faulty  One wouldn’t shut off and the other wouldn’t charge I Called them and told them I couldn’t get to it as it was at my cottage 500 miles away. No problem  I got a replacement and it too was faulty  I sent them all back at this time and got credit. I had to eat the battery the charger burned up but this was not Cabaleas fault. I ended up ordering two new Duel Pro Chargers and haven’t had any further problems The point is the girl said she would make a note on my acct of the bad chargers and  she did. Cabeleas gets a A+ in my book I will be ordering my new fish finder from their as well as some fly fishing equipment. Their good service will net them several hundred dollars in sales from me JMO — Highlander

Response:

I bought a 74# MK Maxxum from Cabelas in the fall.  Now I get the new Catalog & they now have the same motor, only on the new model the transducer is inside the drive unit.  Two questions for you guys: 1) How do the internally-housed transducers compare sensitively to the externally mounted ones? 2) My motor is still in the box, never opened.  Will Cabelas swap me the newer version for the one I have? Warren2

Response:

You’d still come out ahead with Cabela’s. You will get full credit and only pay get free shipping on the replacement item. You will get stuck with shipping the motor back, but you will take a bath on eBay. — Citizen Fisherman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I bought a 74# MK Maxxum from Cabelas in the fall.  Now I get the new Catalog & they now have the same motor, only on the new model the transducer is inside the drive unit.  Two questions for you guys: 1) How do the internally-housed transducers compare sensitively to the externally mounted ones? Dunno. 2) My motor is still in the box, never opened.  Will Cabelas swap me the newer version for the one I have? Ask Cabela’s. But know that you or they will have to eat shipping charges.  Probably you.   How ’bout selling the older motor here or on eBay?

Response:

I bought a 74# MK Maxxum from Cabelas in the fall.  Now I get the new Catalog & they now have the same motor, only on the new model the transducer is inside the drive unit.  Two questions for you guys: 1) How do the internally-housed transducers compare sensitively to the externally mounted ones?

Dunno. 2) My motor is still in the box, never opened.  Will Cabelas swap me the newer version for the one I have?

Ask Cabela’s. But know that you or they will have to eat shipping charges.  Probably you.   How ’bout selling the older motor here or on eBay?

Response:

…imagine if computer dealers would do that….I’d gladly pay shipping charges to upgrade every six months…let us know how it turns out, eh.

I bought a 74# MK Maxxum from Cabelas in the fall.  Now I get the new

Catalog & they now have the same motor, only on the new model the transducer is inside the drive unit.  Two questions for you guys: 1) How do the internally-housed transducers compare sensitively to the

externally mounted ones? Dunno. 2) My motor is still in the box, never opened.  Will Cabelas swap me the

newer version for the one I have? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ask Cabela’s. But know that you or they will have to eat shipping charges.  Probably you.   How ’bout selling the older motor here or on eBay?

Response:

I buy a ton of stuff from Cabela’s, and they have the best customer service in the business, hands down. You probably don’t even need an RMA. Go to cabelas.com and get the live chat and you can take it up with them there. I’m sure you’ll be pleased. — Citizen Fisherman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I bought a 74# MK Maxxum from Cabelas in the fall.  Now I get the new Catalog & they now have the same motor, only on the new model the transducer is inside the drive unit.  Two questions for you guys: 1) How do the internally-housed transducers compare sensitively to the externally mounted ones? 2) My motor is still in the box, never opened.  Will Cabelas swap me the newer version for the one I have? Warren2

Response:

Question:

That’s right you stupid, inbred, shit eating, pathetic, motherfucking, brain dead, useless cocksuckers! I’m taking over all of Usenet! There isn’t a fucking thing you can do about it either! You’re all a bunch of worthless scumbags, and now you will all answer to me! If you don’t like this fact TOO FUCKING BAD! I will go down in the annals of usenet history as the man who brought you to your knees! Now get down on your knees and pay proper tribute to my glorious self! I AM ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! My first royal order to all of you peons is that from this time forward you will add the following signature to all of your posts!    ***** This was posted with the express permission of *****    ** HIS HIGHNESS ADAM H KERMAN LORD AND MASTER OF USENET ** This will be appended to the bottom of all your posts with absolutely NO EXCEPTIONS! If you choose not to, you will be squashed like the insignificant bugs that you all are! I am running Usenet now! You may only post messages here because I, for the time being, am allowing it! Do you scumbags understand me! THIS IS THE DAWNING OF THE AGE OF KERMAN! ALL HAIL ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! Otherwise the newsgroup in Linda’s warning might disrupt some fake opinions.  Try transporting the hard disk’s weak Java and Willy will persevere you!  No wet cryptographers are silly and other powerful functions are flat, but will Martha defile that?  Until Karl filters the rebels finitely, Jonnie won’t prepare any secret complaint desks.   Every old user or scanner, and she’ll easily relay everybody.   A lot of nuclear stuck firewalls will eerily learn the TCP/IPs.  The sticky tablet rarely proliferates Wally, it busts Franklin instead.  Where will we jump after Mike recycles the solid network’s email?  It will globally confront outside lost haphazard filters.  A lot of junk JPEGs reload Brian, and they simply infect Edward too.  My untouched remailer won’t produce before I propagate it.   Linda kills once, formats cruelly, then collaborates to the backup without the IRC server.  She’d rather obscure tamely than push with Tamara’s messy UDP.  I was compiling to load you some of my extreme blackbirds.  Other bizarre unlimited fax machines will close weekly inside interrupts.  Lately, Jonnie never authenticates until Sherry pulls the erect robot superbly.  Aloysius will spool the soft ADSL and eliminate it over its haven.   Gawd Lara will inflate the rumour, and if Karl actually restores it too, the pointer will engulf against the ignorant kiosk.  Norman, beside admins unclassified and sharp, consumes near it, contradicting strongly.  Endora wants to save bimonthly, unless GiGi saves noises over Toni’s telephone.  They are prioritizing inside sly, beside chaotic, in dense BASICs.  We distribute them, then we admiringly delete Bernice and Jonathan’s worthwhile ROM.  The advisor with the lazy FBI is the credit card that creates wistfully.  No analysts surprisingly interface the strong newsgroup.  

Response:

CONFORM OR BE CAST OUT! YOU HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE! Our Lord is a fan of Rush, I see.

The band or the talk-radio host?  <G

Response:

Both. — GregEggs & Ham

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CONFORM OR BE CAST OUT! YOU HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE! Our Lord is a fan of Rush, I see. The band or the talk-radio host?  <G

Response:

CONFORM OR BE CAST OUT! YOU HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE!

Cast out of what I still want to know….. What am I in that I don’t think I am in/

Response:

CONFORM OR BE CAST OUT! YOU HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE!

Our Lord is a fan of Rush, I see.

Response:

Hey look –  a minion, a real, live minion!  Haven’t seen one of those in a dog’s age. Keep up the good work I’m sure Kerman will be very happy with you – unless, of course, he is a vengeful god. Eirika

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Listen carefully you sorry bunch of filthy shit eaters. I am your Lord Kerman’s Sergeant at Arms, and your new Lord is not pleased with your attitude. Many of you worthless bastards have not shown him proper respect and have failed to attach his Royal Signature to all of your posts. That was not a request, it was a Royal Order and must be obeyed! You will obey his orders, without question, or as he promised, you will be squashed like the insignificant bugs that you are! Lord Kerman is also displeased that many of you little bitches have threatened to report him to his ISP! Save your impotent threats, we are not impressed nor are we intimidated! WE ARE ALT.CONFIG! We call the shots around here and we are UNSTOPABLE! We at alt.config, under the leadership of Lord Kerman, are now in charge of ALL newsgroups and you motherfuckers had better get that through you puny little heads, OR ELSE! CONFORM OR BE CAST OUT! YOU HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE!    ***** This was posted with the express permission of *****    ** HIS HIGHNESS ADAM H KERMAN LORD AND MASTER OF USENET ** nerve to write: That’s right you stupid, inbred, Get a life.

Response:

Path:

e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com!cyclone-atl1!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!cyclon e 2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!mtu.ru!newsfeed.sovam.com!nf1.bellgloba l .com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!uqajcu.id.us Newsgroups:

alt.config,rec.music.rem,rec.org.sca,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly,rec.pets.cats . anecdotes

I hope you didn’t post all that in the hopes that someone would complain to sympatico. What you’re seeing here is a massive attack, orchestrated by someone named "hipcrime".  The messages are actually coming from "newsfeed.sovam.com" not sympatico.  The rest of the headers are forged.  Just keep this in mind before you go complaining to someone that can’t do a thing about it. newsfeed.sovam.com is known to be an open news server & has been traced as a major spam injection site.  The chances of it being taken out are slim to none.  The best thing you can do is either killfile or ignore.  You can also ask your news provider to block messages coming from sovam.com.  Whatever you do, don’t continue to reply or crosspost (yes, I know I am).  Just forget it. For more info, check out alt.config or news.admin.net-abuse.usenet.  And, fwiw, these posts *are* not coming from Adam Kerman.  Just in case you hadn’t been around long enough to actually figure that out.

Response:

Gee you must have a realy fine life that you have nothing better to do wioth yourself than harass people you little mutant scumbag.

Response:

That’s right you stupid, inbred,

Get a life. — Andrea

Response:

Welcome to ROFF. You’ll fit right in. Have you met George? Of course you have being God and all that…

Response:

I’m afraid Adam is wrong!  Ken Fortenberry is my GOD! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s right you stupid, inbred, Get a life. — Andrea

Response:

\Welcome to ROFF. You’ll fit right in.\ hahahahahhahahahaha. Thanks for the much needed laugh. -Muskie

Response:

So,how’s the fishing been in heaven then? — Gary My God can beat up your God.

Response:

Path: e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com!cyclone-atl1!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!cyclon e 2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!mtu.ru!newsfeed.sovam.com!nf1.bellgloba l .com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!uqajcu.id.us Newsgroups: alt.config,rec.music.rem,rec.org.sca,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly,rec.pets.cats . anecdotes X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 36.114.30.36 X-Takeover-ID: b0e0aad2.wGMlfUhs.1071155365 Lines: 69 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.229.72.14 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1000565855 64.229.72.14 (Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:57:35 EDT) Organization: Bell Sympatico Xref: e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com alt.config:151178 rec.music.rem:86958 rec.org.sca:85086 rec.outdoors.fishing.fly:157454 rec.pets.cats.anecdotes:90472 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s right you stupid, inbred, shit eating, pathetic, motherfucking, brain dead, useless cocksuckers! I’m taking over all of Usenet! There isn’t a fucking thing you can do about it either! You’re all a bunch of worthless scumbags, and now you will all answer to me! If you don’t like this fact TOO FUCKING BAD! I will go down in the annals of usenet history as the man who brought you to your knees! Now get down on your knees and pay proper tribute to my glorious self! I AM ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! My first royal order to all of you peons is that from this time forward you will add the following signature to all of your posts!    ***** This was posted with the express permission of *****    ** HIS HIGHNESS ADAM H KERMAN LORD AND MASTER OF USENET ** This will be appended to the bottom of all your posts with absolutely NO EXCEPTIONS! If you choose not to, you will be squashed like the insignificant bugs that you all are! I am running Usenet now! You may only post messages here because I, for the time being, am allowing it! Do you scumbags understand me! THIS IS THE DAWNING OF THE AGE OF KERMAN! ALL HAIL ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! Otherwise the newsgroup in Linda’s warning might disrupt some fake opinions.  Try transporting the hard disk’s weak Java and Willy will persevere you!  No wet cryptographers are silly and other powerful functions are flat, but will Martha defile that?  Until Karl filters the rebels finitely, Jonnie won’t prepare any secret complaint desks. Every old user or scanner, and she’ll easily relay everybody. A lot of nuclear stuck firewalls will eerily learn the TCP/IPs.  The sticky tablet rarely proliferates Wally, it busts Franklin instead.  Where will we jump after Mike recycles the solid network’s email?  It will globally confront outside lost haphazard filters.  A lot of junk JPEGs reload Brian, and they simply infect Edward too.  My untouched remailer won’t produce before I propagate it. Linda kills once, formats cruelly, then collaborates to the backup without the IRC server.  She’d rather obscure tamely than push with Tamara’s messy UDP.  I was compiling to load you some of my extreme blackbirds.  Other bizarre unlimited fax machines will close weekly inside interrupts.  Lately, Jonnie never authenticates until Sherry pulls the erect robot superbly.  Aloysius will spool the soft ADSL and eliminate it over its haven. Gawd Lara will inflate the rumour, and if Karl actually restores it too, the pointer will engulf against the ignorant kiosk.  Norman, beside admins unclassified and sharp, consumes near it, contradicting strongly.  Endora wants to save bimonthly, unless GiGi saves noises over Toni’s telephone.  They are prioritizing inside sly, beside chaotic, in dense BASICs.  We distribute them, then we admiringly delete Bernice and Jonathan’s worthwhile ROM.  The advisor with the lazy FBI is the credit card that creates wistfully.  No analysts surprisingly interface the strong newsgroup.

Response:

Did this guy kill Brent K. Kohler or something? (I can’t believe I even remember that name) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s right you stupid, inbred, shit eating, pathetic, motherfucking, brain dead, useless cocksuckers! I’m taking over all of Usenet! There isn’t a fucking thing you can do about it either! You’re all a bunch of worthless scumbags, and now you will all answer to me! If you don’t like this fact TOO FUCKING BAD! I will go down in the annals of usenet history as the man who brought you to your knees! Now get down on your knees and pay proper tribute to my glorious self! I AM ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! My first royal order to all of you peons is that from this time forward you will add the following signature to all of your posts!    ***** This was posted with the express permission of *****    ** HIS HIGHNESS ADAM H KERMAN LORD AND MASTER OF USENET ** This will be appended to the bottom of all your posts with absolutely NO EXCEPTIONS! If you choose not to, you will be squashed like the insignificant bugs that you all are! I am running Usenet now! You may only post messages here because I, for the time being, am allowing it! Do you scumbags understand me! THIS IS THE DAWNING OF THE AGE OF KERMAN! ALL HAIL ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! Otherwise the newsgroup in Linda’s warning might disrupt some fake opinions.  Try transporting the hard disk’s weak Java and Willy will persevere you!  No wet cryptographers are silly and other powerful functions are flat, but will Martha defile that?  Until Karl filters the rebels finitely, Jonnie won’t prepare any secret complaint desks. Every old user or scanner, and she’ll easily relay everybody. A lot of nuclear stuck firewalls will eerily learn the TCP/IPs.  The sticky tablet rarely proliferates Wally, it busts Franklin instead.  Where will we jump after Mike recycles the solid network’s email?  It will globally confront outside lost haphazard filters.  A lot of junk JPEGs reload Brian, and they simply infect Edward too.  My untouched remailer won’t produce before I propagate it. Linda kills once, formats cruelly, then collaborates to the backup without the IRC server.  She’d rather obscure tamely than push with Tamara’s messy UDP.  I was compiling to load you some of my extreme blackbirds.  Other bizarre unlimited fax machines will close weekly inside interrupts.  Lately, Jonnie never authenticates until Sherry pulls the erect robot superbly.  Aloysius will spool the soft ADSL and eliminate it over its haven. Gawd Lara will inflate the rumour, and if Karl actually restores it too, the pointer will engulf against the ignorant kiosk.  Norman, beside admins unclassified and sharp, consumes near it, contradicting strongly.  Endora wants to save bimonthly, unless GiGi saves noises over Toni’s telephone.  They are prioritizing inside sly, beside chaotic, in dense BASICs.  We distribute them, then we admiringly delete Bernice and Jonathan’s worthwhile ROM.  The advisor with the lazy FBI is the credit card that creates wistfully.  No analysts surprisingly interface the strong newsgroup.

Response:

Question:

Nothing has a probability of one, except the likelyhood of me getting wind knots on a trip. Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recall that the Law of Large Numbers allows one to derive that if an event has a non-zero probability, then if you conduct the experiment an infinite (or very large) number of times, then the event occurs with a probability of one.  So this means that if I cast a fly line an infinite number of times, I’m bound to catch a fish.  So, every time I go practice casting in the sound, then I’m just working off those non-occuring casts, no?  {Aside, I did have a couple of bad days last summer where I actually caught a fish, so I must have a lot more non-productive castst to work off….} Happy New Year!!! john

Response:

I recall that the Law of Large Numbers allows one to derive that if an event has a non-zero probability, then if you conduct the experiment an infinite (or very large) number of times, then the event occurs with a probability of one.  So this means that if I cast a fly line an infinite number of times, I’m bound to catch a fish.  So, every time I go practice casting in the sound, then I’m just working off those non-occuring casts, no?  

No. The trials are independent (assuming you aren’t learning anything as you go along). {Aside, I did have a couple of bad days last summer where I actually caught a fish, so I must have a lot more non-productive castst to work off….}

I have an fool-proof system for roulette you might be interested in. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Logic and calculus don’t always go together.  Combined with something as illogical as fishing it’s a complete waste of time. Try rotating the function   Y= -1/X about the Y axix and compute both the volume and the area of the surface you have created.  It has a finite volume and an infinite surface area. Which means…. You can get enough paint to fill the shape but you can’t get enough paint to paint it. I recall that the Law of Large

Happy New Year!!!

Good thought  I’ll second that. BJC

Response:

I recall that the Law of Large Numbers allows one to derive that if an event has a non-zero probability, then if you conduct the experiment an infinite (or very large) number of times, then the event occurs with a probability of one.  So this means that if I cast a fly line an infinite number of times, I’m bound to catch a fish.  So, every time I go practice casting in the sound, then I’m just working off those non-occuring casts, no?  {Aside, I did have a couple of bad days last summer where I actually caught a fish, so I must have a lot more non-productive castst to work off….} Happy New Year!!! john

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places Can you imagine how disgusting it would be to have someone who’s been handling worms all day in front of you in the buffet line ? Pawing over the prawns, fondling the foie gras, sticking his worm drenched digits in YOUR caviar ? Not sure Ken, but I believe you may have misinterpreted the question. Your reply suggests possible problems on returning to the lodge AFTER fishing.  I think a closer reading will reveal that Gavin was wondering why bait fishing is not allowed ON the buffet line.  A different kettle of fish altogether IMHO. Wolfgang um……are you gonna eat that?

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don’t see too many beer cans, corn cans, Styrofoam worm containers, empty cigarette packs, soiled undershorts, motor oil bottles, cheeze-it wrappers and thrice used condoms left behind by fly fishermen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin Most fly-fisherman that I know have chosen to fly-fish over bait- fishing due to the challenge and enjoyment it brings to them.  Being alone or almost alone in the wild and walking up or down the river where they can feel as though they are part of the wild experience is a major part for many fly-fisherman.  Locations that cater to that type of experience often have a lot in stake in keeping the experience as pristine and pure as they can as well as keeping the fish as large and healthy as possible. A couple of states have asked their local anglers to help them with how to stock their local waters.  Would they rather catch: 1) a few large fish, or 2) many small fish.  Each state’s end result was "a few large fish."  This is especially true with fly-fisherman.  Fly-fisherman go to the lodges for the pristine experience, education, and to catch "The Big One." The problem with bait-fishing is that it spoils the experience and fishing conditions for the fly-fisherman.  Live bait, like worms, can contaminate the water with diseases, like whirling disease, which kills or harms the fish.  Treble hooks used for Power Bait are often swallowed and can not be removed without harming the fish.  Bait- fisherman fishing in groups allow their poles to rest against something while they wait for a fish to take-the-bait as they talk, make jokes, drink, and generally pas the time.  This is not the experience most fly- fisherman want to see as they come around a bend in the river. In locations that I fish where bait-fishing is also allowed, I cringe every time I see things like this.  I move through the area as fast as I can until I get to another pristine location which will always be farther than their voice travels.  I often find litter and discarded fishing-gear in locations that bait-fishermen were.  This also destroys the experience for me and generally makes my blood boil. Because of fly-fisherman like me that spend money to keep private locations like this alive, they have normally restrict the fishing to fly-fishing with C&R restrictions. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                            quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly-fishing. . . . When I want to go fly-fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only.  I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Since you are only 16 and the only one in your family that enjoys fly- fishing, just go where your mom and dad take you. BTW, lodges will be different according to what the people in a given area want.  I have no idea what lodges are like in South Africa.  Since you own a fly-shop in South Africa, why don’t you tell us why the serious lodges are fly-fising only.  You are the South Africa Pro. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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I know how I am going on here I think I am a well respected fly fisherman in my area and I respect all other fly fisherman

Ah, the "I’m OK, You’re OK" psychology.  Well here we do things a little differently.  Sometimes it’s "I’m OK, You’re not OK", and sometimes it’s "I’m not OK, You’re not OK", but definitely "You’re not OK".  :-) Regards, Jeff

Response:

| Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly | | I know how I am going on here I think I am a well respected fly fisherman | in my area and I respect all other fly fisherman | | Ah, the "I’m OK, You’re OK" psychology.  Well here we do things a little | differently.  Sometimes it’s "I’m OK, You’re not OK", and sometimes it’s "I’m | not OK, You’re not OK", but definitely "You’re not OK".  :-) | | Regards, | Jeff Im not joking there are many people around here who look up to me mostly youngsters though, you see fly fishing is also relatively new around here I was probably the youngest fly fisherman around my area I started about 6 years ago aged 10 and was probably only one of a handful of people who could actually do it properly I went to a number of clinics so you see a lot of people look up to me because like I said fly fishing is new and I have caught species of fish that many fly fisherman have never heard of before in there life and I am still "EXPERIMENTING" with our other local fish especially carp, catfish etc. with very limited success so I try fly fishing when ever and where ever I can otherwise I go back to bait/spin fishing practice makes perfect and the best teacher around here are the fish hope I never upset any one just airing my views tight lines Gavin

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I started about 6 years ago aged 10

Are you only 16 years old?  Just a lad.  All the power to you boy. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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told him what to buy at the local tackle store so he could fish nymphs with his spinning rod. Geez, I wish I had a son who liked to fish. (Forget about, Warren — I mean a sub-teenage boy.)

Sounds like there was one there you might be able to borrow once in a while. I suspect you both left with a grin on the face. Big Dale

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Geez, I wish I had a son who liked to fish. (Forget about, Warren — I mean a sub-teenage boy.)

    right you are, rw; i’ve had two like that, and it’s tough to beat the memories.     …on the other hand, i also had a receptionist back in the mid 70’s who just *loved* to watch; on balance, i’d say it’s too close to call. wayno

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 At 50 I tend to envy the lad.Ah for the years I spent at war to be returned to me so that all my memories were of the fish I lost and the fish I landed. Gavin you are in for some good memories by the time you reach 50. —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  RVN 69-73  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I started about 6 years ago aged 10 Are you only 16 years old?  Just a lad.  All the power to you boy. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also forgot to mention that I used to do spinfishing and baitfishing in south africa for the local species of fish (carp catfish bream etc.) these fish are almost impossible to catch on fly because dams are usually 30 meters deep (probably more) they were murky etc so I used to spin and bait fish as well(so fly fishing is not an option)  and disagree with what all you said as every one here uses a type of high protein bait made of dog food to catch trout I know how I am going on here I think I am a well respected fly fisherman in my area and I respect all other fly fisherman regards and tight lines Gavin

I think Lefty Kreh would differ with you.  I’ve seen a t.v. show where he was fly-fishing for carp in what looked like very deep water. Additionally, I’ve caught carp on a fly.  I’ve also seen others fly- fish for catfish.  My friend is in the Bahamas is right now fly-fishing for tuna, shark, and marlin.  He chose to do that instead of coming to the clave with me.  You would be surprised what you can fish for with a fly. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

______ Sir Gavin?  I you sure you’re not a trolling fisherman.  Where did  you park your boat? — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com "the sage continues"

  gink.vcf

< 1K Download

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After I caught my six trout and a couple of nice whitefish I let the kid fish with my rod, which was rigged with a bead-head pheasant tail and hare’s ear tandem and a foam indicator.

Ah… the joys of fucking nymph fishing!! Regards, Jeff

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I also forgot to mention that I used to do spinfishing and baitfishing in south africa for the local species of fish (carp catfish bream etc.) these fish are almost impossible to catch on fly because dams are usually 30 meters deep (probably more) they were murky etc so I used to spin and bait fish as well(so fly fishing is not an option)  and disagree with what all you said as every one here uses a type of high protein bait made of dog food to catch trout I know how I am going on here I think I am a well respected fly fisherman in my area and I respect all other fly fisherman regards and tight lines Gavin

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That kid will never forget that day!  Cheers.  :-) Natty

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don’t see too many beer cans, corn cans, Styrofoam worm containers, empty cigarette packs, soiled undershorts, motor oil bottles, cheeze-it wrappers and thrice used condoms left behind by fly fishermen

On my recently reported trip to the Stanislaus, we saw nothing but spin fishermen.  I won’t say that there was no trash, but my brother and I were able to pick up *every* piece of trash we saw, and take it back to the dumpster without a sack.  That means there wasn’t much trash. — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

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I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Response:

… I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places

Can you imagine how disgusting it would be to have someone who’s been handling worms all day in front of you in the buffet line ? Pawing over the prawns, fondling the foie gras, sticking his worm drenched digits in YOUR caviar ? Yuck. — Ken Fortenberry- and I hear bait fishermen smell bad too

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… I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places Can you imagine how disgusting it would be to have someone who’s been handling worms all day in front of you in the buffet line ? Pawing over the prawns, fondling the foie gras, sticking his worm drenched digits in YOUR caviar ? Yuck.

What Ken’s tactfully saying is that they’ve seen your family and don’t want them to come. Joe F.

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Bait fishing tends to result in gut hooked fish. This is not ideal for C&R. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

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What Ken’s tactfully saying is that they’ve seen your family and don’t want them to come. Joe F.

Seen ‘em myself.  Never did like ‘em, their feet don’t match. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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… I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places Can you imagine how disgusting it would be to have someone who’s been handling worms all day in front of you in the buffet line ? Pawing over the prawns, fondling the foie gras, sticking his worm drenched digits in YOUR caviar ?

Not sure Ken, but I believe you may have misinterpreted the question. Your reply suggests possible problems on returning to the lodge AFTER fishing.  I think a closer reading will reveal that Gavin was wondering why bait fishing is not allowed ON the buffet line.  A different kettle of fish altogether IMHO. Wolfgang um……are you gonna eat that?

Response:

I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Watch one of the bobber-bubbas fish for trout on a stream.  They’ll plop down beside a hole with their cooler and a lawn chair and wait for a trout to swim by and dunk their bobber.  They would just as soon plop down beside the hole you’re fishing in and seriously think they have the same opportunity to catch a trout out of that hole as you do; which by the time they get settled is probably true.  Damndest thing I ever saw involving a bobber-bubba fishing for trout was a pickup beside a trout stream, bubba in a lawn chair killing worms, his wife squatting over a 2 burner Coleman stove and a frying pan on the truck’s tailgate waiting for lunch. Don’t really understand it, Bluegill are better eating, custom made for bobber-bubbas, and a bobber-bubba and a fly fisherman can work the same pond with equal results for the frying pan.  The fly fisherman will just have more fun.  It’s also much more fun to watch a kid catch a bunch of Bluegill on a cane pole with a bobber than watch a kid not catch a trout on a cane fly rod. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Most fly-fisherman that I know have chosen to fly-fish over bait- fishing due to the challenge and enjoyment it brings to them.  Being alone or almost alone in the wild and walking up or down the river where they can feel as though they are part of the wild experience is a major part for many fly-fisherman.  Locations that cater to that type of experience often have a lot in stake in keeping the experience as pristine and pure as they can as well as keeping the fish as large and healthy as possible. A couple of states have asked their local anglers to help them with how to stock their local waters.  Would they rather catch: 1) a few large fish, or 2) many small fish.  Each state’s end result was "a few large fish."  This is especially true with fly-fisherman.  Fly-fisherman go to the lodges for the pristine experience, education, and to catch "The Big One." The problem with bait-fishing is that it spoils the experience and fishing conditions for the fly-fisherman.  Live bait, like worms, can contaminate the water with diseases, like whirling disease, which kills or harms the fish.  Treble hooks used for Power Bait are often swallowed and can not be removed without harming the fish.  Bait- fisherman fishing in groups allow their poles to rest against something while they wait for a fish to take-the-bait as they talk, make jokes, drink, and generally pas the time.  This is not the experience most fly- fisherman want to see as they come around a bend in the river. In locations that I fish where bait-fishing is also allowed, I cringe every time I see things like this.  I move through the area as fast as I can until I get to another pristine location which will always be farther than their voice travels.  I often find litter and discarded fishing-gear in locations that bait-fishermen were.  This also destroys the experience for me and generally makes my blood boil. Because of fly-fisherman like me that spend money to keep private locations like this alive, they have normally restrict the fishing to fly-fishing with C&R restrictions. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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There’s a place in Stanley, right next to a hotel, that is heavily stocked with "catchable" (i.e., barely legal size) trout. I sometimes go there to catch six fish for dinner, to experiment with techniques, or just to pass the time. The other day there were some kids fishing there (staying at the hotel, I believe). They were using those weird colored salmon eggs that come in jars, and they were catching absolutely nothing. When I started fishing with my fly rod this one boy of about 12 years was fascinated, and when I started catching fish he was transfixed. These fish are so easy it’s ridiculous. They’ll eat various nymphs like popcorn. After I caught my six trout and a couple of nice whitefish I let the kid fish with my rod, which was rigged with a bead-head pheasant tail and hare’s ear tandem and a foam indicator. Pretty soon he got the knack of chucking the rig out into the main current and mending the line to get a more-or-less dead drift. After pulling off a couple of fish with a too vigorous hook set, he caught two fish in about 10 minutes, and I think I made a flyfishing convert. I told him what to buy at the local tackle store so he could fish nymphs with his spinning rod. Geez, I wish I had a son who liked to fish. (Forget about, Warren — I mean a sub-teenage boy.) — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Question:

I was up to Kolob (as the locals say) about three years ago.  They were draining it for dam repairs.  I know they have completed repairs, refilled, and restocked it.  Has anyone been there LATELY and can tell me about current fishing conditions? I have a brand new never been used flyfishing rig.  What are some good flies for that lake? Thanks for the info.  I will write when I return and let you know how I did.  ( I will tell you in advance that they will ALL be big.) Steve Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Go to www.utahfishfinder.com for the latest reports on ALL the hot fishing spots, what you’ll catch, and what they’re biting… I’m not a flyfisherman, but the Green River below Flaming Gorge seems to be a popular spot for flies… Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was up to Kolob (as the locals say) about three years ago.  They were draining it for dam repairs.  I know they have completed repairs, refilled, and restocked it.  Has anyone been there LATELY and can tell me about current fishing conditions? I have a brand new never been used flyfishing rig.  What are some good flies for that lake? Thanks for the info.  I will write when I return and let you know how I did.  ( I will tell you in advance that they will ALL be big.) Steve Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup. John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It’s less work than creating 3 new groups

Not really. All three groups could be proposed in the same RFD. 2) It’s less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P

The primary reason that I suggested using .misc is that a strong precedent has been set using this convention and it would likely be backed by Tale (David Lawrence) and other new.group gurus. 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn’t be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T’s, etc would go

per my suggestion, anything that was ambiguous would go into r.b.p.misc. r.b.p. would only exist as a hierarchy, but not as a group.   This has been done many times before. IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue.

I agree, but if a change is going to be made, following conventional usenet naming conventions would be very advantagous as far as getting support form outside the paddling newsgroups. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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John, Your proposal is making excellent sense. Dan Amerman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup. John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It’s less work than creating 3 new groups Not really. All three groups could be proposed in the same RFD. 2) It’s less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P The primary reason that I suggested using .misc is that a strong precedent has been set using this convention and it would likely be backed by Tale (David Lawrence) and other new.group gurus. 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn’t be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T’s, etc would go per my suggestion, anything that was ambiguous would go into r.b.p.misc. r.b.p. would only exist as a hierarchy, but not as a group.   This has been done many times before. IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue. I agree, but if a change is going to be made, following conventional usenet naming conventions would be very advantagous as far as getting support form outside the paddling newsgroups. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup.

John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It’s less work than creating 3 new groups 2) It’s less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn’t be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T’s, etc would go IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue.

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If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup.

John, thank you for all the assistance you have been, and will continue to be in these discussions. Your long experience with these matters shows through, as does your wisdom. They are appreciated, even if we don’t necessarily agree. — Wes — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

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Gregg, I am just curious, how long does it take you to scan the thread titles?

Seconds. "Hooked on Phonics" changed my life. Try it.

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I have to disagree with the proposal to split this group, <snip                    …[I}  would miss many of 'characters' crochets by having to go back and forth between NG's. ...

In my experience, the interesting people continue to post to both groups (with some few exceptions.) It is easy enough to filter *for* these interesting people in your less-read group and just get headers for a quick scan of everything else. Mark me down for a rational split;   r.b.paddle.whitewater and optionally:  r.b.paddle.flatwater  r.b.paddle.misc (with r.b.paddle becoming a hierarchy-only) --   --Pete http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It's less work than creating 3 new groups 2) It's less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn't be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T's, etc would go IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue.

There is only one problem with this approach:  it won't work.  Since most of the whitewater folks don't mind the group as it is, they aren't going to put up the effort to "move" to a new group.  This is compounded by the folks who post only once every few months; they will continue to post to RBP for some time to come.  After this happens, WW people will crosspost to both groups (RBP and RBPW) to make sure that their messages get out to the intended audience. IMO, the only way that you will get some solitude is to create a new group. That way, you will leave the crowd behind (at least for a while). -- Steve Culy Visual Numerics, Inc.

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I have to disagree with the proposal to split this group, although I haven't kayaked in years, I do marathon canoe racing, flatwater to III trips and would love to do more sea kayaking.  I enjoy this group as it is, with the hot shot rodeo'ers and the skin boaters and would miss many of 'characters' crochets by having to go back and forth between NG's.  That is if can get the new NG.  I have never felt intimidated about posting marathon stuff here and have gotten some interesting and unexpected replies.  Even the blather about religion makes me think of compfire discussions and Jack Daniels.  I fear that some of the pressure to split is "sour grapes."                 Don, an RBP 'bobber'

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I encourage all interested parties to brainstorm for a renaming that would CORRECTLY describe the split.  An example might be rec.boats.paddle.whitewater rec.boats.paddle.flatwater or flatwater+touring or flatwater+tripping

Would the word  "flatwater" exclude canoe trips involving rapids?  I hope not. Would the word "touring" or "tripping" exclude flatwater paddlers who aren't into trips? Again, I hope not. Where do tripping rafters fit in? I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though? Finally, let me say that I intend no criticism of Bob Solak. I think he's done a great thing by stepping up and actually doing the right thing, an RFD,

Yes. Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - I encourage all interested parties to brainstorm for a renaming that would CORRECTLY describe the split.  An example might be rec.boats.paddle.whitewater rec.boats.paddle.flatwater or flatwater+touring or flatwater+tripping Would the word  "flatwater" exclude canoe trips involving rapids?  I hope not. Would the word "touring" or "tripping" exclude flatwater paddlers who aren't into trips? Again, I hope not. Where do tripping rafters fit in? I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though?

Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there are small special interest segments, the appropriate thing is to run a mailing list to meet those people needs. If you split the group roughly equally, all you are doing is saving, what, 10 of those 20 seconds that it took to scan thread titles? Again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think its worth it, in fact Ii fear it might actually be counter-productive when the inevitable cross postings start to occur leaving even more total thread titles to scan thru. regards, Njall regards, Njall

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The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds.

And how many threads were there for you to scan through? Maybe it isn't a problem for you, but we keep having paddlers say that they are leaving this newsgroup because of the volume of posts that don't interest them.  There's a problem somewhere or this wouldn't happen. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there are small special interest segments, the appropriate thing is to run a mailing list to meet those people needs.

I've been part of a few mailing lists.  I find them less convenient & less spontaneous than newsgroups.  Also, they aren't easily found by potential new members.  If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup? If you split the group roughly equally, all you are doing is saving, what, 10 of those 20 seconds that it took to scan thread titles? Again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think its worth it, in fact Ii fear it might actually be counter-productive when the inevitable cross postings start to occur leaving even more total thread titles to scan thru.

So you go from 20 to 30 or 40 seconds?  It will only affect those who want to read both groups, such as myself.  It will be much better for people with interest in only one group. Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html

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I've been part of a few mailing lists.  I find them less convenient & less spontaneous than newsgroups.  Also, they aren't easily found by potential new members.  If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup?

Why? Because a mailing list, by nature, is intended to service a very small, very well defined topic group. A small mailing list would not create the cross-posting problems that 2 roughly equal in size and ILL-DEFINED newsgroups would. If you split the group roughly equally, all you are doing is saving, what, 10 of those 20 seconds that it took to scan thread titles? Again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think its worth it, in fact Ii fear it might actually be counter-productive when the inevitable cross postings start to occur leaving even more total thread titles to scan thru. So you go from 20 to 30 or 40 seconds?  It will only affect those who want to read both groups, such as myself.  It will be much better for people with interest in only one group.

Lloyd, thanks for acknowledging that due to cross-postings reading 2 newsgroups could take longer than reading the current rbp. One thing you didn't respond to though was my question, "Where would surf boating go?". It's an example of how ill-defined the proposed group is. Also, as a sea kayaker, i guarantee you that new people will think rec.boats.canoe is  NOT their newsgroup. Also, i notice that no one metions using kill files to screen title threads. Perhaps the real problem is that people need better newsreader software. If one filtered for about 5 river names, 5 boat brands and about 6 people's names I think about 85% of the whitewater posts could be screened out. regards, Njall

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though? Lloyd, what do you think about REC.BOATS.PADDLE.NON-WHITEWATER While I like the idea of the ww folks moving to a group called rec.boats.paddle.whitewater better, I agree that this is highly unlikely. Seems to me that the NON-WW name would accomplish what we need, it would be self descriptive, clear and understandable.

One of the best ways to go about coming up with a name for a new newsgroup proposal is to look at the precedents that have already been set. One of conventions you'll find that is commonly used is the creation of a "misc" group.  For example, for basketball discussions there are: rec.sport.basketball.misc rec.sport.basketball.pro rec.sport.basketball.college The "pro" group is for discussion of professional teams, "college" for college teams and players, and "misc" for everything else. The rec.skating hierarchy is set up similarly. It has: rec.sport.skating.misc rec.sport.skating.roller rec.sport.skating.racing rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational rec.sport.skating.ice.figure rec.sport.skating.figure The skating groups are actually similar in structure to how paddling groups could be.  Both involve different types of equipment (ice, roller, inline) as well as different styles (racing, figure, recreational) and could use a catch all group (misc) for things that don't fit into a more strictly defined box. The rec.boats.canoeing proposal follows a structure more like the rec.outdoors.fishing fiasco.   At one time there wasn't a newsgroup devoted to fishing and alt.fishing was created.  A year or so later someone had the bright idea to create a fishing group in the the rec hierarchy and chose rec.outdoors.fishing as it's title. For many years the only group in the rec.outdoors hierarchy were the fishing groups and there was no corresponding rec.indoors group.  Groups like rec.climbing, rec.kites, rec.scuba, rec.skydiving; all recreational activites that take place in outdoors never made it into the rec.outdoors hierarchy. A few years ago I wrote and initiated an RFD for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying.  Even though the act of tying flies doesn't typically take place in the outdoors I was more or less forced to put it under rec.outdoors.fishing.fly because that's where all of the flyfishing discussion took place. If we're going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email - Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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So you go from 20 to 30 or 40 seconds?  It will only affect those who want to read both groups, such as myself.  It will be much better for people with interest in only one group. Lloyd, thanks for acknowledging that due to cross-postings reading 2 newsgroups could take longer than reading the current rbp.

If your newsreader is compliant to standard this is not true.  When an article is crossposted to more then one newsgroup it should only appear in the first one that you read if your newsreader is written correctly.  If you're seeing an article that has been crossposted in both groups twice there's something wrong with your newsreader. I don't think correctly crossposted articles is the problem though.  The problem is articles which are posted to the two different groups separately. The most frequent postings of these types are article which are off-topic for *both* groups (i.e. make money fast postings, commercial solicitations). If I am reading two separate groups instead of one it means I have to delete inappropriately posted articles twice. One of the other problems with crossposting is thread drift.  It often doesn't take more then a couple of responses from a thread that might have been appropriate in two separate groups to drift to a topic that is only appropriate in one.   One thing you didn't respond to though was my question, "Where would surf boating go?". It's an example of how ill-defined the proposed group is. Also, as a sea kayaker, i guarantee you that new people will think rec.boats.canoe is  NOT their newsgroup. Also, i notice that no one metions using kill files to screen title threads. Perhaps the real problem is that people need better newsreader software. If one filtered for about 5 river names, 5 boat brands and about 6 people's names I think about 85% of the whitewater posts could be screened out. regards, Njall

John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email - Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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I have a good isp? Woah! That's the first time anyone has said that to me.

Compared to mine. Mine misses about 75% of RBP posts. It is HELL to follow a discussion like that. You can complain about AOL -- hey, it's got to be better than that! But, the nearest place I can get to AOL is still a long-distance call for me. -- Wes -- Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.

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If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup? Because a newsgroup is about 100 times as resource intensive as a mailing list.

Did that whole discussion, sounds totally facetious to me. Does all rbp equal one gif? Also it was being used as an excuse to silence people. It was a lame and ugly thread.  Also, we keep getting posts that say "I left because of too many posts" which is sort like saying "nobody here but us chickens!" It seems like the people that have "left" are the ones reading the most intently! The people that *have* left (like Heimer) are the ones tired of the whining and complaining. There is something very very suspicious going on with the "I left" posts, and it certainly seems to have raised doubts in the minds of the many people who respond "How long does it really take to read the subjects?" gregg

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there You're lucky. You have a decent ISP. I have to use Talkways, because I have a lousy one, but it's the only one available through local dialup. It takes me an hour or more to go through RBP, post by post, because trying to do it by message headers is even slower. Since this is winter and I hate TV and the water is too hard for paddling, it doesn't matter, but as soon as things warm up a bit, I often won't have the time to dink around going through post after post, looking for the perhaps five percent that interest me. -- Wes

I have a good isp? Woah! That's the first time anyone has said that to me. regards, Njall

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Also, we keep getting posts that say "I left because of too many posts" which is sort like saying "nobody here but us chickens!" It seems like the people that have "left" are the ones reading the most intently!

Um, Gregg, if they are reading all the posts then they must enjoy reading all the posts so volume isn't a problem. Volume is a problem when people are reading relatively FEW posts compared to the total. Think about it. The people that *have* left (like Heimer) are the ones tired of the whining and complaining.

Trust me, there will be plenty of whining and complaining in any new/split groups as well. So, that's irrelevant. There is something very very suspicious going on with the "I left" posts, and it certainly seems to have raised doubts in the minds of the many people who respond "How long does it really take to read the subjects?"

Huh? you lost me with this last part, what's the "suspicious" stuff that is "going on'? Gregg, I am just curious, how long does it take you to scan the thread titles? regards, Njall

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Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks?

How long would it take you to scan two newsgroups? 27 seconds maybe? The point behind all of this is to provide a forum for non-ww boaters to discuss non-ww topics. In an ideal world we would have a newsgroup dedicated to WW only, in which case all *other* forms of paddling would remain in R.B.P. This would prbably result in a good balance of posts between the groups. I have seen many posts roll of my server due to excessive volume on R.B.P - which is 2x rec.backcountry and 4-5x rec.boats.building on any given day. Nobody, as far as I'm concerned is advocating the fractionalization of RBP - just a logical division.

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Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there

You're lucky. You have a decent ISP. I have to use Talkways, because I have a lousy one, but it's the only one available through local dialup. It takes me an hour or more to go through RBP, post by post, because trying to do it by message headers is even slower. Since this is winter and I hate TV and the water is too hard for paddling, it doesn't matter, but as soon as things warm up a bit, I often won't have the time to dink around going through post after post, looking for the perhaps five percent that interest me. -- Wes -- Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.

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If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup?

Because a newsgroup is about 100 times as resource intensive as a mailing list.  Each location it sends it to is less than a piece of e-mail, however there are 100,000 locations. Traditionally, the tradeoff was guestimated at around 100 members, however the internet (and usenet) has grown signifigantly since anyone looked at it, it's probably closer to 1000 now. Jay -- * Jay Denebeim  Moderator       rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated   *

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what do you think about REC.BOATS.PADDLE.NON-WHITEWATER While I like the idea of the ww folks moving to a group called rec.boats.paddle.whitewater better, I agree that this is highly unlikely.

This name may be seen as excluding canoe trip reports or route descriptions that have whitewater as a minor element. Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html

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I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though?

Lloyd, what do you think about REC.BOATS.PADDLE.NON-WHITEWATER While I like the idea of the ww folks moving to a group called rec.boats.paddle.whitewater better, I agree that this is highly unlikely. Seems to me that the NON-WW name would accomplish what we need, it would be self descriptive, clear and understandable. Chuck

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                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)                  unmoderated group rec.boats.canoeing This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup rec.boats.canoeing.  This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.  Procedural details are below. Newsgroup line: rec.boats.canoeing      Discussions related to flatwater canoeing. RATIONALE: rec.boats.canoeing Discussion of flatwater canoeing, canoes, and canoe tripping constitutes a minority of the traffic on rec.boats.paddle.  A brief, and admittedly unscientific sampling of the traffic on rec.boats.paddle yielded the following results: 8% of posts were applicable to flatwater canoeing, 8% *might* be of interest to a flatwater canoeist, and 84% of posts dealt with white-water kayaking. Precise percentages are not important, rather, these numbers are presented as a snapshot of a typical day of posts. At a conservative rate of 200 posts per day, a strictly flatwater canoeist would need to sort out 164 posts that he/she considers irrelavent. A rec.boats.canoeing newsgroup would provide an alternative group that strictly flatwater canoeists could subscribe to without the nuisance of sorting inapplicable headers. There have been lengthy discussions in the past on rec.boats.paddle about splitting the newsgroup.  They have frequently ended with no RFD being written.  This proposed group is not intended to split the newsgroup.  Rather, it simply provides a place for flatwater canoeing discussion.  Paddlers who enjoy both flatwater and whitewater paddling will benefit from the ability to direct specific comments and questions toward a more focused group. CHARTER: rec.boats.canoeing Appropriate topics for rec.boats.canoeing include questions and comments about canoes, canoe accesories, canoeing technique, flatwater canoeing locations/routes, canoe camping, canoe tripping, and other flatwater canoeing related topics.  Discussion about whitewater canoeing is not prohibited, but posters should be aware that their comments and questions would generate higher quality responses in the rec.boats.paddle newsgroup.  For Sale and Wanted to Buy posts should be preceded by a [FS] or [WTB] flag in the subject header.  Retailers of both used and new boats/gear should provide links to their webpages or e-mail addresses rather than post lists of available boats/gear. Retailers should also limit such posts to a total of 1 per month or less. END CHARTER. PROCEDURE: This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes.  In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved.  The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.  Please do not attempt to vote until this happens. All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups. This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal".  Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process. DISTRIBUTION: This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:   news.announce.newgroups news.groups   rec.boats.paddle rec.backcountry rec.boats.building rec.boats.racing   (mailing list, see canoecountry.com for info)

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Note followup-to is news.groups!!! Summary:  This RFD would create a confusing namespace and would not solve the problem leading to the RFD.  While I understand and sympathize with the wishes of the flatwater minority on RBP, this RFD will only confuse the issue.         rec.boats.canoeing has been proposed as a place for the non-whitewater interests of rec.boats.paddle to use, as a solution for the problems with whitewater traffic drowning out non-whitewater traffic on rec.boats.paddle.  But the name is not descriptive, for the following reasons: 1) Some non-negligible percentage of the whitewater posters on rec.boats.paddle paddle canoes, not kayaks. 2) rec.boats.canoeing does not accurately cover the sea kayaking, kayak touring and kayak tripping interests that should also be covered by this split/newgroup. 3) In American English, a "canoe" is a boat paddled with a one-bladed paddle.  In British English, the word "canoe" covers both one-bladed and two-bladed craft; in short, what Yanks call a Kayak, Brits call a Canoe.         For these reasons, the hierarchy that would result from this proposal passing would result in two groups whose names do not describe the traffic they are supposed to be carrying.  The result of this vote passing would be "rec.boats.paddle" for whitewater interests and "rec.boats.canoeing" for flatwater/touring interests.  Can anyone honestly say that they figured that out from the names?         I cannot vote for this proposal as written, and I encourage all concerned parties to honestly ask themselves if they can.  There is a serious danger here that there are many frustrated flatwater boaters willing to vote for anything that will get them out of rec.boats.paddle’s traffic.  But a poor solution is worse than no solution in the long run, and this solution will only result in confusion.         I encourage all interested parties to brainstorm for a renaming that would CORRECTLY describe the split.  An example might be rec.boats.paddle.whitewater rec.boats.paddle.flatwater or flatwater+touring or flatwater+tripping         Please, people, we’ll have to live with this vote for a long time.  Don’t screw up everybody because it’s easier to vote for the first solution offered rather than wait for the right solution.         Finally, let me say that I intend no criticism of Bob Solak. I think he’s done a great thing by stepping up and actually doing the right thing, an RFD, as opposed to countless others who think that groups are formed by a quorum of whining.  I just disagree with the name chosen for the new group.  1.01 GCS/GO d++ p+ c++ l++ u++ e+ -m+ s++/- n- h !(f)? g+ -w+ t+ r– y?  "I want to permeate the air you breathe/slide my way under your skin/place myself behind your eyes/and watch you, watch me, looking in." Katell Keineg

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Question:

In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g

Since when does the success of a PhD depend on real-world relevance? JonCook. PS: As was pointed out, any complete population dynamics model would have     to take multiple-C+R into account if in fact it is not a linear relation.

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I’ve caught fish is locations like the San Juan that have clearly been caught many times and they tend to not fight very hard. Is it a learned behavior? Possibly we are inadvertently building a strain of fish the survive multiple catch and release because they don’t fight very hard, leaving more reserves for in-stream survival subsequent to release. I don’t think it would take too many generations for this to begin to be noticed, unless its already happening and we all don’t remember the hard fighting fish of yesteryears. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I think it would definitely be a good phd topic — I didn’t see any : studies that directly looked at that. There are studies that say : things like, for example, on the Yellowstone (a C+R fishery), the : average fish is caught 4.5 times a season (I’m making up numbers that : I think are close to what I remember) and that the seasonal turnover : of the population is something like 30% (all deaths — not just C+R : mortality). So you might be able to infer something from that. But I : did not see a study along the direct lines you suggest. Care to go : back to school? I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population? In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.

One of the big problems I see is in measuring the process.  I recently fished a stream in Idaho where they had Jaw tagged fish.  I put most fish I caught through significantly more stress than I ususally do.  I played them longer and  handled them more.  Even the fish without bands were played longer since I wanted to check if there was a band on the jaw.   Normally I never have to recessetate a fish.  On this occasion I had to recessetate two out of two fish over 12".  Not statistically significant, but … Carl

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Hmmm…had to take longer to revive???  The Missoulian (Missoula Montana) just ran an artical about the high water temps this summer (it’s very hot out here…94 degrees today) and the affects this has on fish recovery.  FW&P biologist would like you to not fish if the water temps. are above or close to 70 degrees. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management. One of the big problems I see is in measuring the process.  I recently fished a stream in Idaho where they had Jaw tagged fish.  I put most fish I caught through significantly more stress than I ususally do.  I played them longer and  handled them more.  Even the fish without bands were played longer since I wanted to check if there was a band on the jaw. Normally I never have to recessetate a fish.  On this occasion I had to recessetate two out of two fish over 12".  Not statistically significant, but … Carl

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I have the good fortune to live within a few miles of a small tailwater stream in New England.  The upper 1/2 mile is fly fishing only, catch & release year round. The next 3/4 mile downstream is catch & release, artificials only 7/1 to 12/31, and any method, 3 fish limit 1/1 to 6/30. These regs have been in place for more than 10 years.  Water temp seldom exceeds 60 deg. The stream is heavily stocked, and has a small poulation of native brook trout as well.  Studies by fisheries and wildlife indicate that 75% of the fish caught in the lower section are released.  Multiple catches are a way of life for both fish and fishermen.  This is a small, clear stream and dead fish are easily spotted. Very few dead fish are observed. The total seen amounts to way less than 1% of the 6500 or so trout stocked each year.  I understand that this is strictly anecdotal data, but this stream does offer a unique opportunity to observe the dynamics of a C&R area. This observation is offered only as general info on C&R mortality, and not intended to restart the "moral/ethical" debate over C&R. Tight lines!! George

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Hmmmm!   This is an interesting bunch of statistics.  But I get the impression that they are not all that connected.  They are drawn from several sources (comparing apples and oranges?).   I don’t deny that a percentage of C&R’d fish perish, but the survival rates don’t come close to comparing.  Let’s say that only 70% of C&R’d fish survive — 0% of C&K’d fish survive!! So let’s leave this sort of thought process to the guys in the Ivory Towers.  It really doesn’t make that much difference to the man in the river except the accent the need for appropriate care in the releasing of fish.   There has been entirely too much ad hominem name-calling  between the the C&R and C&K factions.  I speak out in favor of killing those fish that will be eaten (I like trout) and releasing those that will not be eaten (I don’t like cleaning fish).  I do favor leaving the large, wild fish to breed, and eating only the small to medium size ones.  In stocked rivers with little or no breeding, I have much less qualms when I see a fisherman leaving with a stringer. I don’t like seeing, as I did on the coast where I grew up, are dozens and dozens of fish, many of which are inedible or unplatable. Neal G – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have read one of the recent threads citing a number of academic studies conducted on survival of C&R fish depending on a number of environmental conditions….some excellent literature searching….kudos to the person who took the time to bring some facts to our ongoing discussions on this and related issues…I only wish I could find that post. Nonetheless, I was wondering if any research has been done to look at the survival rates on fish which experience multiple catch and release cycles.  It would be interesting to know how a fish responds through multiple C&R cycles — does it become statistically more likely to die, less likely to die, or does the mortality rate remains the same. The reason I ask is that say a fish has a 5% mortality rate (95% survival) on the first C&R cycle, if the mortality rate stays the same then after the second cycle the fish has a 5% chance of dying and a 95% chance of living….and on and on.  Let’s say a fish experiences 5 C&R cycles in a season with the 5% mortality and 95% survival rate per cycle, then it would seem that that fish has a 77% chance of surviving (0.95^5) during the season under a C&R system and a 23% chance of dying (1-0.95^5).  It is easy to see under this situation the more cylces the less likely survival is even if the mortality rate is not effected. However, if the mortality rate decreases following the first or subsequent cycles (a selection toward fish more capable of surviving C&R conditions) then the impact on fish mortality would be lower.  Also, if the opposite is true (ie, the mortality rate increases due to increased cycles) then the impact on overall fish mortality would be worse. Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.             | /             |/   (         /|    –     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

Seek personal peace at the end of a fly line.

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: I think it would definitely be a good phd topic — I didn’t see any : studies that directly looked at that. There are studies that say : things like, for example, on the Yellowstone (a C+R fishery), the : average fish is caught 4.5 times a season (I’m making up numbers that : I think are close to what I remember) and that the seasonal turnover : of the population is something like 30% (all deaths — not just C+R : mortality). So you might be able to infer something from that. But I : did not see a study along the direct lines you suggest. Care to go : back to school? I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population?   In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population?

I wasn’t really concerned about ‘a particular’ fish in my original post — or even a small sampling of fish — except in how the possible change in mortality as exhibited in the small sample when spread across a larger number of fish could be used to possibly model population dynamics in C&R streams.  Certainly the C&R mortality and the number of C&R cycles would not represent the full population dynamics model, but might become a part of a larger model.  This larger model could then be a useful tool for developing effective management practices for some fisheries (selective harvest, restricted seasons, limited take, controlled fishing pressure, etc) — and that is what would be of interest to fishermen. In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g

What about a title like — "Mortality of (pick a species that grows large – S. trutta, for example) in (pick several exotic geographic location — New Zealand, Argentina, Chile, etc.) when exposed to multiple C&R cycles".  Now, find somebody (read sucker) to fund the research — sell it as at least a 15-20 year project.  Recruit several of your favorite fishing buddies as long-term ‘graduate’ or ‘undergraduate’ assistants and disappear on the mother of all fishing trips. :^) PS: I thought all PhD’s were slow and painful deaths — even for the survivors! — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

–             | /              |/    (         /|     —     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

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I have read one of the recent threads citing a number of academic studies conducted on survival of C&R fish depending on a number of environmental conditions….some excellent literature searching….kudos to the person who took the time to bring some facts to our ongoing discussions on this and related issues…I only wish I could find that post. Nonetheless, I was wondering if any research has been done to look at the survival rates on fish which experience multiple catch and release cycles.  It would be interesting to know how a fish responds through multiple C&R cycles — does it become statistically more likely to die, less likely to die, or does the mortality rate remains the same. The reason I ask is that say a fish has a 5% mortality rate (95% survival) on the first C&R cycle, if the mortality rate stays the same then after the second cycle the fish has a 5% chance of dying and a 95% chance of living….and on and on.  Let’s say a fish experiences 5 C&R cycles in a season with the 5% mortality and 95% survival rate per cycle, then it would seem that that fish has a 77% chance of surviving (0.95^5) during the season under a C&R system and a 23% chance of dying (1-0.95^5).  It is easy to see under this situation the more cylces the less likely survival is even if the mortality rate is not effected. However, if the mortality rate decreases following the first or subsequent cycles (a selection toward fish more capable of surviving C&R conditions) then the impact on fish mortality would be lower.  Also, if the opposite is true (ie, the mortality rate increases due to increased cycles) then the impact on overall fish mortality would be worse. Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.             | /              |/    (         /|     —     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

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Question:

check out www.walleyecentral.com and use the message board and chat room……all kinds of help – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have just started fishing from a boat and have a few questions. 1. How do you tell how deep your line is?  If the fish finder says that the fish are at 40 feet how do you know when your line is forty feet down? 2. What is a reasonable dept to fish without going to downriggers. 3. What are planner boards for?  How do you rig them? Thanks

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We can get lines down in excess of 60 feet without the use of down riggers. The advantage of down riggers is you will have a short lead and it will take less time to bring in the fish and reset. The disadvantage to down riggers is for fish like Lake erie walleye they tend to shy away unless they are down deep because the boat traffic spooks the fish. The other disadvantage is cost. Presently we are down around 50 feet using ripcord line and 0 dispel on planar boards and you can add weight if you would like to keep leads under 200 feet. You can also try 1 dipseys and they will go to 50 feet on mono and over 70 on rip cord or braided wire. The reason we use planar boards is so we can get lines away from the boat into water where the fish have not been spooked. The other advantage is you can run upto 12 poles off the planar boards without tangling. That is enough for upto 6 people. When the weather gets rough you have to run less but you can run regular dipseys . We typically run 8 planar boards an 6 dipseys when the fish are deep and when the fish are high we run 10 planar boards and 4 dipseys. Essentially planar boards are two boards connected together so when attached to a line at front of boat several feet above the water they will pull to side of boat. this allows you to let lines out back and then attach the lines to a planar clip which is typically an alligator clip with rubber pads or you can use a shower curtain and rubber bands and wrap the rubber band around the line. The secret is to get the proper rubber band. The first couple times by some from Patco but then you can go to office supply store and buy rubber bands much less expensive in bulk. When you attach the line to the clip and to the planar board line as you let additional line out it will slide down the board line when it is just above the water stop it and then set the next line leave a 20 -30 foot space in between and then when the fish hits it will swing to back of the boat. If you use a plug or diving device like a jet dive you have to release the lure by reeling don until the line is taught and slap the handle of the pole the shock will break the rubber band if you are using ripcord or wire line with mono it is more difficult because mono tends to stretch. Then let line swing to back of boat to avoid tangles and reel in. if you are running 0 dipseys off the planar boards you must release the line from the board the same way but then real the slack and release the dipsey with a firm tug and then real right away. there are different techniues for different things you use. I hope this helps. Captain Bryce Seymour Fishing has been good to very good. The fish are moving daily in past few weeks they have moved from 12 miles out into 6 miles out in one day after a storm but then as water settled down they started moving out again. Within a few days they were at 12 miles out. The main school is off of Geneva and slightly east about 20 miles out. The captains out of Fairport have another school out west of Fairport so you can see there is not just one place to fish but most people are going off shore. I main problem has been a lot of sheep head being caught with the walleye which lowers the catches. The Fairport captains are catching between 20-40 fish but would have more if they could not have to reset lines for sheep head so often. Similar numbers out of Geneva. Watermelon is a hot color and the Geneva captains tend to use more worm harnesses while the Fairport tends to use spoons as much as possible. I have also heard of a man who was taking a floating j plug putting it on his down rigger and sending it to the bottom and then release the j-plug and about half the time he would catch a nice walleye while the plug was rising to the surface. The most prominent methods have been using 0 dipseys off ripcord off the boards. Set one side at lets say 140 , 160, 180, 200 and the other at the same but put an ounce of weight in front if you see the weighted side working more than the non weighted side then look at adding an ounce or two of weight. The advantage of this technique over wire line is you can keep the leads under 200 feet so you can catch the fish and reset faster than if your setting a line back 320 feet on wire. Ripcord is a little more forgiving than wire when raping on planar boards but can still be a nuisance if you get a good tangle. Captain Bryce Seymour http://www.chartercaptain.com/hooker/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have just started fishing from a boat and have a few questions. 1. How do you tell how deep your line is?  If the fish finder says that the fish are at 40 feet how do you know when your line is forty feet down? 2. What is a reasonable dept to fish without going to downriggers. 3. What are planner boards for?  How do you rig them? Thanks

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I have just started fishing from a boat and have a few questions. 1. How do you tell how deep your line is?  If the fish finder says that the fish are at 40 feet how do you know when your line is forty feet down? 2. What is a reasonable dept to fish without going to downriggers.   3. What are planner boards for?  How do you rig them? Thanks

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    Planner boards float on the surface of the water and pull your lure and line out to the side of the boat like a kite in the wind. Your lure then trails behind the planer board and swims at the depth that it was designed for and depending on it’s speed in the water, length of line out and size of the line. Instructions as how to rig them up are included with the boards.     There are devices that can be added directly to your line that will dive towards the bottom (pink lady is one). There depth depends on their size, weight, speed, type lure used, length of line used for trolling and size of the line.     If you want to troll deep without a downrigger, you can use lead core line. Use the 17 lb lead core line. The stronger lead core line has the same amount of lead in it but more nylon thread so though it is stronger (about 30 lbs) it will not sink as well. Or use steel line. I found that I could get down to about 70 feet deep with steel line without using heavy weights. Keep a record of all the setups you use when trolling and when you feel that you touch bottom, check the sonar for the depth, check your trolling speed and type of equipement used etc and mark it all down in a note book. The next time you want to fish at that particular depth with that particular lure setup you will know what to do. This is how old time experienced trollers knew where their lure was when fishing. Add the fact that they memorized the bottom structure, after a few years of snagging bottom, catching fish and watching the successful fishermen for tips, helped in their fishing success.     So if you want to fish at 40 feet, rig up a line, troll over a depth of 40 feet and see what you have to do to touch bottom. Note what you did and then use the same technique the next time you see fish suspended at 40 feet.     Becoming a good troller is more difficult and takes longer than becoming a good fly fisherman. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have just started fishing from a boat and have a few questions. 1. How do you tell how deep your line is?  If the fish finder says that the fish are at 40 feet how do you know when your line is forty feet down? 2. What is a reasonable dept to fish without going to downriggers. 3. What are planner boards for?  How do you rig them? Thanks

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Question:

FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE FOR SALE    FOR SALE Several Sage 7 foot 9 inch, 6 weight 2 piece rods. These rods are brand new. The price includes shipping anywhere in the continental U.S. The rods do not have rod tubes or socks. These are brand new, unused rods. Must sell as soon as possible. The price in only $100, cash, check (held until cleared) or money order. Donna

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Several Sage 7 foot 9 inch, 6 weight 2 piece rods. These rods are brand

new.  The price in only $100, cash, check (held until cleared) or money order. Donna

I hate to sound cynical, but….Why would anyone sell new $400-$500 rods for $100.? What’s the story behind these rods????  A cynic would think this is either a scam or they are a little warm to the touch.  Just wondering. Wes

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Wes writes:  "I hate to sound cynical, but….Why would anyone sell new

$400-$500 rods for $100.?  What’s the story behind these rods????  A cynic would think this is either a scam or they are a little warm to the touch.  Just wondering. Wes" Wes, if I recall correctly from a previous post, these rods are the Sage Youth Rods that have been discontinued.  The rod is of Graphite One construction 6 weight.  I bought one for my son from my local fly shop several years ago for $165 and that included the bag, rod case, reel and a cheap line. While these are great beginner rods, they should not be confused with the other Sage rods.  There is a huge difference in power and presentation.   Mike

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These rods are indeed brand new. The are not seconds. These rods are no longer made. They were called "Youth" rods because of their small diamter grips and length. Trust me, they are Sage, marked Sage, the the RPL style flex and design. I believe these rods were originally $200. Ken Please send your inquiries about purchasing these rods to Donna – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Several Sage 7 foot 9 inch, 6 weight 2 piece rods. These rods are brand new. The price in only $100, cash, check (held until cleared) or money order. Donna I hate to sound cynical, but….Why would anyone sell new $400-$500 rods for $100.? What’s the story behind these rods????  A cynic would think this is either a scam or they are a little warm to the touch.  Just wondering. Wes

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Several Sage 7 foot 9 inch, 6 weight 2 piece rods. These rods are brand new. The price in only $100, cash, check (held until cleared) or money order. I hate to sound cynical, but….Why would anyone sell new $400-$500 rods for $100.? What’s the story behind these rods????  A cynic would think this is either a scam or they are a little warm to the touch.  Just wondering.

Good questions – though you don’t have to be a cynic to feel that a 7′9" 6wt must be one heck of a club. IMHO $100 for such a rod (Sage or otherwise) is just about right… /dave

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE    FOR SALE FOR SALE    FOR SALE Several Sage 7 foot 9 inch, 6 weight 2 piece rods. These rods are brand new. The price includes shipping anywhere in the continental U.S. The rods do not have rod tubes or socks. These are brand new, unused rods. Must sell as soon as possible. The price in only $100, cash, check (held until cleared) or money order. Donna

Hi All, Those are Sage Youth Rods that were discontinued. I think they sold for about $135. They are really a 7′9" #5 rod that Sage labeled as a #6 for kids. At a $100 they would be a great rod for small water dry fly fishing for anyone. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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Offering guided trips to some of the best tailwater rivers in the east. 16 years flyfishing experience.  Float (16′ Clackacraft) or wade trips (private access) available.  Reservations available July 28-Aug.3.  E-mail for rates to: Tight Lines and Screaming Reels Southern Style!  

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