Question:

I have been an avid, die hard fly fisherman for many years now, and now my three sons are also addicted to the sport. I recently decided to try using barbless hooks on some of my mini leech and damselfly patterns. I seem to be betting the same hook set, but 90% of the fish are long line released and I see nothing wrong with what I am doing. Any Ideas??

Response:

I have been an avid, die hard fly fisherman for many years now, and now my three sons are also addicted to the sport. I recently decided to try using barbless hooks on some of my mini leech and damselfly patterns. I seem to be betting the same hook set, but 90% of the fish are long line released and I see nothing wrong with what I am doing. Any Ideas??

Just do more of the same Mike.  If you’re losing fish, you have been letting slack get in the line and when they jump, you’re not bowing to the fish.  Chances are you’re stripping in real fast to get the slack out but you must have too much slack laying on the ground.  Try fishing with less slack and get on the reel ASAP would be my advice.   Another thing you must remember is "which side of the fishes mouth" are you hooked up in?  You hook up with the fish FACING the current.  When they are fighting and turn away from the current, you need to go easy. Only pull harder when they are facing the current and the hook is on your side of the jaw. Hope this helps Mike, — MrG/American Sportsman "the saga continues"

Response:

Keep a tight line! Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been an avid, die hard fly fisherman for many years now, and now my three sons are also addicted to the sport. I recently decided to try using barbless hooks on some of my mini leech and damselfly patterns. I seem to be betting the same hook set, but 90% of the fish are long line released and I see nothing wrong with what I am doing. Any Ideas??

Response:

Don’t feel like the lone ranger! I had the same problem day before yesterday on the Conejos River in south central Colorado. Great fly fishing with 12 to 18 inch browns and some larger that I lost either with the  long line release (I like that) or a few cases of snap the 6X tippet. It was great fun nonetheless! Damn, now I’m back in Dallas… Graham – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been an avid, die hard fly fisherman for many years now, and now my three sons are also addicted to the sport. I recently decided to try using barbless hooks on some of my mini leech and damselfly patterns. I seem to be betting the same hook set, but 90% of the fish are long line released and I see nothing wrong with what I am doing. Any Ideas??

Response:

I have been an avid, die hard fly fisherman for many years now, and now my three sons are also addicted to the sport. I recently decided to try using barbless hooks on some of my mini leech and damselfly patterns. I seem to be betting the same hook set, but 90% of the fish are long line released and I see nothing wrong with what I am doing. Any Ideas??

I have days like that.  Other days, it doesn’t happen.  Could be any number of things going on.  Smaller hooks are made of thinner wire which necessarily equates with sharper hooks…..large hooks are more likely to fail to penetrate deeply.  Some days fish are more sluggish; others, more active.  A lot of line in or on the water is more difficult to control.  A long or light tippet stretches more.  There are a host of other factors which might come into play.  At any rate, barbless hooks suggest you are planning to release them anyway, no?  A little earlier is better than a little later for the fish.

Response:

I have been an avid, die hard fly fisherman for many years now, and now my three sons are also addicted to the sport. I recently decided to try using barbless hooks on some of my mini leech and damselfly patterns.

Is there a chance that in your anticipation of having to keep the pressure on the hook that you are setting up too quickly and not getting solid hookups? I’ve been crushing the barbs off my hooks for years now and it seems like at first, when I was concerned about the hook staying in place, that I may have done just that. It doesn’t seem to be a problem anymore. Flyfish

Response:

Mr. G. made some great points.  Like FlyFish, I’ve been using barbless hooks or flattening barbs for a few years now and when I lose a fish most times it’s due to having too much line on the water and not getting the fish on the real quickly enough. GL…and tight lines! Natty

Response:

Question:

(Sandy’s observations snipped) — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0

I think we’ve been down these threads before Sandy, but they are worth repeating.  I asked the question once before and never got a definitive answer (like you ever do in this group); What about crushing ants and rolling your ant pattern around in a bottle of crushed ants?  Work? Ethical?  I was stopped and questioned at length once by a game warden because he thought my Bio-Strike looked like Power Bait!  I might try the ant thing this summer though.  Mossy Creek Browns are notoriously pickey! Just an additional note here about the scent thing.  A Wildlife Biologist/Fraternity Brother always swore by Oil of Anise.  Said fish and small game couldn’t resist the smell.  What if some enterprising floatant maker developed Anise scented floatant?  Ant scented, Mayfly scented floatant lines? — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Just an additional note here about the scent thing.  A Wildlife Biologist/Fraternity Brother always swore by Oil of Anise.  Said fish and small game couldn’t resist the smell.  What if some enterprising floatant maker developed Anise scented floatant?  Ant scented, Mayfly scented floatant lines?

I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F.

Response:

I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F.

If your gonna smear dead ants all over your fly then why not just hook a dead ant on the thing.  For that matter, why not dispense with the extra furry junk and just use the ant?  Let’s see, worms will hang on a hook easier than ants.  How about just using a worm and a big ball of strike indicater about 2 feet up the line?  Add to that a one piece bamboo "fly" rod and you have something which sounds familiar. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Dear Chief the extra chili last night and they really enjoyed it. They howled alot during the night but seemed fine this A.M.  You forgot to take the extra set of underware I washed for you.  Perhaps you can borrow a pair from DEave, use your suspenders to keep them up.   Try to stay away from that Fontenberry guy, last time you went fishing with him you came home with alot of new dirty words and some screwed up opinions.  Take your celostral pill each  morning.your metamusal each night and don"t forget you should have one Manhatten each night. Your side of the tribe has never been able to handle firewater,

Response:

"Wayne Hart" wrote <snip Just an additional note here about the scent thing.  A Wildlife Biologist/Fraternity Brother always swore by Oil of Anise.  Said fish and small game couldn’t resist the smell.  What if some enterprising floatant maker developed Anise scented floatant?  Ant scented, Mayfly scented floatant lines? Wayne

How about giving the whole area a rotten egg scent after one of Dave LaCourse’s clave breakfasts?  It isn’t from Anise but that’s close. Ernie

Response:

Knowledge is power.

Excellent post Sandy. Mu, who spent the morning alternating between spinnerbaits and wooly buggers.  Didn’t bring my minoow trap though.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F. If your gonna smear dead ants all over your fly then why not just hook a dead ant on the thing.  For that matter, why not dispense with the extra furry junk and just use the ant?  Let’s see, worms will hang on a hook easier than ants.  How about just using a worm and a big ball of strike indicater about 2 feet up the line?  Add to that a one piece bamboo "fly" rod and you have something which sounds familiar. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

Man, y’all gotta complicate thangs…get a old field phone and a bucket…or for you wacky types, Nitromon S and a good defense lawyer…you can fish and check fer erl… R To crank is exercise…. To blast Dangerous!

Response:

Joe Fleischman writes: I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F.

Well hell, Joe!  I guess I can’t fish in my favorite waders.   Hmmmmm, come to think of it, they don’t smell like bait, they smell Dave

Response:

Ernie Harrison writes: How about giving the whole area a rotten egg scent after one of Dave LaCourse’s clave breakfasts?  It isn’t from Anise but that’s close. Ernie

Ernie, damn it, I resent that!  My breakfasts at the clave are eaten by all with much gusto and no complaints.  If you ever get your scrawny ass to one of these claves, I will prove it to you, if I have to force feed the %&# eggs to ya!  <g And then I will get my buddy Jeffy to deep fry you an egg in bacon grease and we will force you to eat it.  Then, we’ll seal you in your waders, and send you on your way.   And people will shun you, forever and ever. Dave

Response:

Indian Joe sends a smoke signal: Dear Chief the extra chili last night and they really enjoyed it. They howled alot during the night but seemed fine this A.M. You forgot to take the extra set of underware I washed for you.  Perhaps you can borrow a pair from DEave, use your suspenders to keep them up.   Try to stay away from that Fontenberry guy, last time you went fishing with him you came home with alot of new dirty words and some screwed up opinions. Take your celostral pill each  morning.your metamusal each night and don"t forget you should have one Manhatten each night. Your side of the tribe has never been able to handle firewater,

Golly, Forty, only you and I made IJ’s celebrity  list this time around.  That underware stuff — is that like Tupper-ware? Your Pal, DEave

Response:

Charlie Choc: My breakfasts at the clave are eaten by all with much gusto and no complaints.   Never knew you were the cook at Tooties (where I ate *my* clave breakfasts)<g. — Charlie…

That’s right, you never stay at clave central.  Put it this way, if you liked Tooties, you will love the breakfast IJ and I will fix you.  (pssst, don’t eat Jeffy’s eggs). Dave LaCourse

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charlie Choc: My breakfasts at the clave are eaten by all with much gusto and no complaints. Never knew you were the cook at Tooties (where I ate *my* clave breakfasts)<g. — Charlie… That’s right, you never stay at clave central.  Put it this way, if you liked Tooties, you will love the breakfast IJ and I will fix you.  (pssst, don’t eat Jeffy’s eggs). Dave LaCourse

i’m workin on lasagna this year…hmmm…now, lemmesee, where’s the bacon grease… jeff

Response:

In the Great State of North Carolina, it is unlawful to desecrate the body of the dead.  Furthermore, anyone who *smears* the dead aunt onto a fly pattern is just plain sick!!

Umm, Rosanne Rosannadanna, that’s "ant".  Not "aunt", "ant". Regards, Jeff

Response:

My God man, don’t unbuckle that wader belt up wind! Fishing tip for the day:  A fisherman in neoprenes with a tight wader belt can be used to replace a punctured pontoon if you feed him enuf Burro Chilli.  Hint: ensure he is secured with a slip knot for easy release and to allow for expansion.                                     Frank Reid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe Fleischman writes: I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F. Well hell, Joe!  I guess I can’t fish in my favorite waders.   Hmmmmm, come to think of it, they don’t smell like bait, they smell Dave

Response:

Folks, In the Great State of North Carolina, it is unlawful to desecrate the body of the dead.  Furthermore, anyone who *smears* the dead aunt onto a fly pattern is just plain sick!!

If you just hold it close to aunt Bea, though, it’ll pick up some of that gravy smell and that should work. — Charlie…

Response:

Folks, In the Great State of North Carolina, it is unlawful to desecrate the body of the dead.  Furthermore, anyone who *smears* the dead aunt onto a fly pattern is just plain sick!! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F. If your gonna smear dead ants all over your fly then why not just hook a dead ant on the thing.  For that matter, why not dispense with the extra furry junk and just use the ant?  Let’s see, worms will hang on a hook easier than ants.  How about just using a worm and a big ball of strike indicater about 2 feet up the line?  Add to that a one piece bamboo "fly" rod and you have something which sounds familiar. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

You’ll have to ask Al for sure, but I think Tupper just wears big ol’ cotton panties…

Gee thanks.   That’s a visual I could have done without.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

Nice post.  The only thing I would question is the part about lateral lines left out of the fly fishing definition – I think everyone agrees a muddler minnow is a fly, and part of its appeal is supposedly that it gives off enough vibration to get a trout’s interest. Anyway, I think part of the reason some people are attracted to fly fishing is to challenge themselves to fool trout.  The less real the "bait/fly" is, the more challenge there is in the deception.  The more real it is, the less challenge.  How much people care to challenge themselves in this respect seems to be a very personal thing.  The more natural the whole *scenario* is, the more challenge.  Some people will set up a chum line of real beetles to be followed by their own beetle imitation.  I don’t know how legal that is, but it’s not entirely natural. Knowledge is power.

– Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

Golly, Forty, only you and I made IJ’s celebrity  list this time around.  That underware stuff — is that like Tupper-ware?

You’ll have to ask Al for sure, but I think Tupper just wears big ol’ cotton panties… — Charlie…

Response:

My breakfasts at the clave are eaten by all with much gusto and no complaints.  

Never knew you were the cook at Tooties (where I ate *my* clave breakfasts)<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Knowledge is power. I like to know things about fish behavior. I often try things just to see what will happen. Once my experiment is finished, my new experimental technique may or may not become a steady habit. But I seldom regret trying something once. There is a lot to be learned from bait fishing for instance. Years ago–when it was still legal to fish with sculpins in Montana–I used to go sculpin fishing once every two or three years. If you use barbless hooks and set the hook when you first detect the strike, you get to return the fish unharmed, if you choose to do so. More important, in a few short hours of sculpin fishing you can learn about large brown trout behavior what might take a lifetime of fishing with flies. I used bait fishing to make myself a better streamer fisherman. You can learn a lot about riffle feeding behavior too–by fishing with live nymphs. The feedback rate (the number of fish you catch) is so great you learn more in a very short period of time (when you fish with live nymphs). When fishing with live nymphs doesn’t work, for instance, you know the fish are asleep. You learn to recognize those times, and not to waste your time. When the fish *are* on the feed, you can catch so many more fish in such a short period of time, you don’t have to work with hunches anymore. You quickly learn how to size up a riffle: to know where the big ones lie and how the little ones line up behind. You learn how much weight to use, how much slack to throw, and how and when to wait for the strike. You can learn all of those things from fly fishing too, of course. But you learn it slower, over a much longer time period, and you reach conclusions with far less confidence when fly fishing—-because the feedback rate is so slow. We do what we want. I choose to bait fish occasionally because I learn from it. I fly fish frequently because I prefer to fish that way. PUNCHLINE:    The line between bait fishing and fly fishing can be substantially obscured.  I’ve been making soft-bodied, open-cell foam nymphs for years. They’re good looking nymphs. Because they’re soft, fish don’t spit them out. They swim around chewing on soft nymphs, which makes it easier to detect the strikes. With soft foam nymphs, you don’t necessarily get more strikes, but you definately feel more of them happen.   Then, the other day, while fishing in the Madison canyon, I found a fat golden stonefly nymph under a rock. I killed it on a whim: I crushed it up and squeezed the resulting paste into the body of a soft foam nymph. I rolled the soft foam nymph back and forth in the palm of my hand, in a puddle of bug paste. That (open-cell foam) nymph, at that point, became equally effective as a live bait. But I could cast it as far as my fly rod would reach. I caught one fish after another in a riffle I had been working steadily and unsuccessfully foam nymph, but without the bug paste. Now I’m not suggesting anybody else should do anything like this at all. But this is interesting information. Fish detect their prey by: 1) eye sight 2) by detecting vibrations with their lateral line 3) by smell. And smell, I think, is the most powerful attractant of all. Now that I think of it, perhaps fly fishing (for those who worry about categories and definitions) means fishing with a fly rod in a way that only targets the piscatorial visual cortex: IE with no help from the lateral line, nor from the (fishes) olfactory system. For those of us who enjoy breaking the rules occasionally (but still like casting with a fly rod), you can also target the lateral line–with lightweight fly rod wigglers. And you can target the olfactory system too (and still do long distance fly rod casting) by fishing with soft foam nymphs……and bug paste. — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://nervana.montana.edu/~sandy  */

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Question:

I have tried drilling them out but they always want to split on me so I would build up the blank with masking tape or cork…  Dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am getting ready to build myself a 3 wt. Sage LL 2 pc. and have a question regarding the reel seat. All of the reel seats and wood inserts I have looked at typically come in sizes of .362 or .312.  My blank falls in the range of .340.  I have received two different points of view on how to deal with this.  One fly shop said to drill out the .312 and the other said to build a ship using either cork or other material.  I am leaning towards drilling out the .312 size but wanted to bounce this off more experienced builders.  This will be my sixth rod but the first one I have had to make an adjustment to the reel seat on. Thanks. Mike Wilson Spokane, WA

Response:

Okay gentleman, Thank you for all your responses.  My rod building mentor would get on his box daily and curse the evil of masking tape, so as a prodigee, I too never consider that option.  However, I know that many of you who responded have built a lot of rods and fished the finish off of them so I am going to go with the recommendations of using the masking tape in 3 rings and binding it all together with the epoxy. Thanks for the help. Mike Wilson

Response:

Mike,    I have some reel seats I installed twenty years ago using masking tape and they are in fine condition.  Cork grips are a different matter.  I ream them to fit the rod taper exactly, using a tapered dowel covered with coarse sandpaper. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay gentleman, Thank you for all your responses.  My rod building mentor would get on his box daily and curse the evil of masking tape, so as a prodigee, I too never consider that option.  However, I know that many of you who responded have built a lot of rods and fished the finish off of them so I am going to go with the recommendations of using the masking tape in 3 rings and binding it all together with the epoxy. Thanks for the help. Mike Wilson

Response:

Right.  Sorry about that. — — – Lou Lampe / Luis de Tucson, engineer retired. There seems to be some confusion here.  You are saying that the ROD BLANK is larger than the inside diameter of the reel seat, at least those you have looked at.

No – he said his rod blank is larger in diameter than *one* seat he looked at, and smaller than the *other*, and he wanted to know whether it was better to drill out the smaller one, or build up the blank to fit the larger one. And I think he got the best answer – which is the same way my dad built his (and my) rods: use masking tape to build up the blank in three spots, then cram the works with epoxy… /daytripper

Response:

0] : Mike, :    I have some reel seats I installed twenty years ago using masking tape : and they are in fine condition.  Cork grips are a different matter.  I ream : them to fit the rod taper exactly, using a tapered dowel covered with coarse : sandpaper. : Ernie

: Okay gentleman, : : Thank you for all your responses.  My rod building mentor would get on his : box : daily and curse the evil of masking tape, so as a prodigee, I too never : consider that option.  However, I know that many of you who responded have : built a lot of rods and fished the finish off of them so I am going to go : with : the recommendations of using the masking tape in 3 rings and binding it : all : together with the epoxy. : : Thanks for the help. : : Mike Wilson I have done several rods by building up the rod blank with multiple layers of heat shrink tubing so that it’s a slide fit into the seat. Then I epoxy the whole thing. I have had no problems with this so far. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am getting ready to build myself a 3 wt. Sage LL 2 pc. and have a question regarding the reel seat.   All of the reel seats and wood inserts I have looked at typically come in sizes of .362 or .312.  My blank falls in the range of .340.  I have received two different points of view on how to deal with this.  One fly shop said to drill out the .312 and the other said to build a ship using either cork or other material.  I am leaning towards drilling out the .312 size but wanted to bounce this off more experienced builders.  This will be my sixth rod but the first one I have had to make an adjustment to the reel seat on. Thanks. Mike Wilson Spokane, WA

Mike, REC makes the finest machined reel seats on the market. You have a premium blank that will last you for years. I would consider checking their catalog and if you see something suitable call ‘em with all the FACTS. I am sure they would bore out a wood insert for you and answer any/all questions. Their reel seats are expensive but you get what you pay for – they’ll have some beautiful nickel silver hardware that will balance perfectly with your primo blank. Now the other alternative is to buy a wood insert and have a machinist or pro rod builder bore it out so it fits over your blank. Your favorite fly shop should have access to a pro rod builder who does rod repairs – they can’t charge that much to bore out a wood insert.                          10# fred —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

There seems to be some confusion here.  You are saying that the ROD BLANK is larger than the inside diameter of the reel seat, at least those you have looked at.

No – he said his rod blank is larger in diameter than *one* seat he looked at, and smaller than the *other*, and he wanted to know whether it was better to drill out the smaller one, or build up the blank to fit the larger one. And I think he got the best answer – which is the same way my dad built his (and my) rods: use masking tape to build up the blank in three spots, then cram the works with epoxy… /daytripper

Response:

Hi Mike, It depends on what tools you have available to you.  The best way is to drill out the .312 insert…in order to do a first rate job of that you need a lathe or mill or at least a drill press.  The best way is to chuck it in a lathe and use a Jacobs chuck in the tailstock with the desired drill size. A second choice would be to chuck a .310-.312 drill rod into a drill press or mill, extend the quill (with machinery turned off) so that the rod is well into the existing hole in the insert and clamp the insert in place, retract the quill and using the desired size drill bit, drill out the insert. Assuming you only have simple tools (hand tools) available to you, I’d go with the larger holed insert and make a cork or Delrin arbor with a hand drill.  (Slip the cork or Delrin over a tight fitting bolt, add a washer and nut to hold things tight, and insert the bolt into a hand drill.  Turn on, lock in the "on" position, use a file or sandpaper to shape, i.e., "poor man’s lathe" style.  If you use a file, for safety’s sake, do it left handed, with the file on top of the material, your body toward the right side and with the file’s tang inserted into a handle.) Good luck, George

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am getting ready to build myself a 3 wt. Sage LL 2 pc. and have a question regarding the reel seat. All of the reel seats and wood inserts I have looked at typically come in sizes of .362 or .312.  My blank falls in the range of .340.  I have received two different points of view on how to deal with this.  One fly shop said to drill out the .312 and the other said to build a ship using either cork or other material.  I am leaning towards drilling out the .312 size but wanted to bounce this off more experienced builders.  This will be my sixth rod but the first one I have had to make an adjustment to the reel seat on. Thanks. Mike Wilson Spokane, WA

Response:

I remember drilling out a reel seat once.  Seemed like a good idea at the time.  That’s one mistake I’ll never make again.  It was a nice reel seat too!  TOO BAD. — Bill Endicott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am getting ready to build myself a 3 wt. Sage LL 2 pc. and have a question regarding the reel seat. All of the reel seats and wood inserts I have looked at typically come in sizes of .362 or .312.  My blank falls in the range of .340.  I have received two different points of view on how to deal with this.  One fly shop said to drill out the .312 and the other said to build a ship using either cork or other material.  I am leaning towards drilling out the .312 size but wanted to bounce this off more experienced builders.  This will be my sixth rod but the first one I have had to make an adjustment to the reel seat on. Thanks. Mike Wilson Spokane, WA

Response:

I am getting ready to build myself a 3 wt. Sage LL 2 pc. and have a question regarding the reel seat.   All of the reel seats and wood inserts I have looked at typically come in sizes of .362 or .312.  My blank falls in the range of .340.  I have received two different points of view on how to deal with this.  One fly shop said to drill out the .312 and the other said to build a ship using either cork or other material.  I am leaning towards drilling out the .312 size but wanted to bounce this off more experienced builders.  This will be my sixth rod but the first one I have had to make an adjustment to the reel seat on. Thanks. Mike Wilson Spokane, WA

Response:

I am getting ready to build myself a 3 wt. Sage LL 2 pc. and have a question regarding the reel seat. All of the reel seats and wood inserts I have looked at typically come in sizes of .362 or .312.  My blank falls in the range of .340.  I have received two different points of view on how to deal with this.  One fly shop said to drill out the .312 and the other said to build a ship using either cork or other material.  I am leaning towards drilling out the .312 size but wanted to bounce this off more experienced builders.  This will be my sixth rod but the first one I have had to make an adjustment to the reel seat on.

Ahhhh, nice blank. I’ve been told it’s best never to drill out a reel seat. I use masking tape to build up a tight fit. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I use masking tape to build up a tight fit.

Ditto for me.   I leave space between the tape "rings" to allow the seat epoxy to adhere directly to the blank. Joe F.

Response:

Best to avoid any drilling etc on pre-fabricated reel-seats. Use masking tape to build up the necessary blank diameter over the length of the seat, leave a space between each wrapping of tape, and coat the whole lot , including the spaces, well with epoxy before mounting the seat. The seat should slide over the "rings" of tape fairly easily. Make sure you use the same number of wraps for each "ring" and wrap tightly to ensure concentricity etc.  Before mounting the seat, add one last wrap of tape before applying the epoxy, the epoxy lubricates the tape to the extent that a very tight fit is still possible to achieve. Alternatively, if the wall thickness of the reel seat is sufficient, it may be possible to modify it without too many problems, but this is normally done on a lathe, and not by drilling.  Drilling may split the seat unless done very accurately and slowly with a very sharp drill. It may also be possible with a good sharp round file, but this depends on the material, and is quite difficult to do accurately. The masking tape method is very reliable usually, and is safer than messing about with the seats. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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You can buy graphite arbors that you can fit to the seat and the rod blank.  If you can’t get one the right size (try anglers workshop, mudhole, or dale clemens) then you can build one with masking tape, fiberglass, or cork and use a two part epoxy putty to hold it in.  The putty will add weight so you need to test the balance of such a light rod.Drilling out the seat will cause weakness without adding a significant advantage in weight reduction. Mike Keyes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am getting ready to build myself a 3 wt. Sage LL 2 pc. and have a question regarding the reel seat. All of the reel seats and wood inserts I have looked at typically come in sizes of .362 or .312.  My blank falls in the range of .340.  I have received two different points of view on how to deal with this.  One fly shop said to drill out the .312 and the other said to build a ship using either cork or other material.  I am leaning towards drilling out the .312 size but wanted to bounce this off more experienced builders.  This will be my sixth rod but the first one I have had to make an adjustment to the reel seat on. Thanks. Mike Wilson Spokane, WA

Response:

As the others have, go for the masking tape to build up the blank. Three rings should do it, and epoxy over the surface of the tape and between the rings. Oddly enough I have a .jpg I could send you if you like? Tim Lysyk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am getting ready to build myself a 3 wt. Sage LL 2 pc. and have a question regarding the reel seat. All of the reel seats and wood inserts I have looked at typically come in sizes of .362 or .312.  My blank falls in the range of .340.  I have received two different points of view on how to deal with this.  One fly shop said to drill out the .312 and the other said to build a ship using either cork or other material.  I am leaning towards drilling out the .312 size but wanted to bounce this off more experienced builders.  This will be my sixth rod but the first one I have had to make an adjustment to the reel seat on. Thanks. Mike Wilson Spokane, WA

Response:

I use masking tape to build up a tight fit. Ditto for me.   I leave space between the tape "rings" to allow the seat epoxy to adhere directly to the blank. Joe F.

Double ditto with the added benefit that the masking tape build up makes it easier to remove the seat should it ever become necessary. I’ve taken apart two factory rod reel seats and both had been built up with masking tape. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

There seems to be some confusion here.  You are saying that the ROD BLANK is larger than the inside diameter of the reel seat, at least those you have looked at.  I checked two of my catalogs quickly and found many reel seats in almost any diameter you could want and you do want the reel seat to be slightly larger than the rod.  Look in: http://www.anglersworkshop.com http://www.jansnetcraft.com or any of the others previously mentioned.  The cork handle will have to be filed out to fit the blank and of course the handle must work with the reel seat.      May I also commend to you the detailed instructions at:  http://www.flyanglersonline.com/ then click on For Beginners and then click on Rod Building.  It helped me a lot.  You can even have it in English or Spanish.  He shows how to build up the blank with tape and fill with epoxy.  Do not use five minute epoxy because you will need a LOT more time than that.  Rod Builder’s Epoxy will be flexible and waterproof and will stick to all the materials involved, i.e. epoxy, varnish, graphite, wood, cork and nickel-silver or neoprene winding checks.      It is sometimes mentioned that you should break the gloss on the blank varnish (if it is varnished) so the epoxy can grab it.  I’m not sure that it is necessary on a light fly rod but I do it anyway.    If you haven’t done this before you may want to do as I did.  I put together a less expensive rod for practice and I was really glad that I did.  I learned on it and I have a backup rod, same line weight.  It looks reasonable but not as good as later rods.   Before you start, do you understand that rod building can be as addictive as fly tying and fly fishing, — — – Lou Lampe / Luis de Tucson, engineer retired.

I am getting ready to build myself a 3 wt. Sage LL 2 pc. and have a question regarding the reel seat.   All of the reel seats and wood inserts I have looked at typically come in sizes of .362 or .312.  My blank falls in the range of .340.  I have received two different points of view on how to deal with this.  One fly shop said to drill out the .312 and the other said to build a ship using either cork or other material.  I am leaning towards drilling out the .312 size but wanted to bounce this off more experienced builders.  This will be my sixth rod but the first one I have had to make an adjustment to the reel seat on. Thanks. Mike Wilson Spokane, WA

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Question:

ROFL.  You got it, Bob.  Good advice.  However, you forgot goats, trees, lawyers, and boiled peanuts!  <g

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BASTAARRRDDD!!!

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Boiled Peanuts, what the hell are boiled peanuts??

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ROFL.  You got it, Bob.  Good advice.  However, you forgot goats, trees, lawyers, and boiled peanuts!  <g

Response:

Boiled Peanuts, what the hell are boiled peanuts??

Well, not to put too fine a point on it but, they are peanuts that have been boiled.      

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Hello everyone, I have decided to try this thing called Fly fishing.  I live in Northeast Ohio and will be fishing for Smallmouth, Steelhead and a stray Salmon most of the time. I don’t have a small fortune to spend, so I need some input on what I need and what size.     I have been doing some reading on fly fishing and I understand some of the termanology that goes along with it. There is a hell of alot to learn and I don’t even own a rod yet  HELP Thanks Jim Vonderau

Response:

Hello everyone, I have decided to try this thing called Fly fishing.  I live in Northeast Ohio and will be fishing for Smallmouth, Steelhead and a stray Salmon most of the time. I don’t have a small fortune to spend, so I need some input on what I need and what size.     I have been doing some reading on fly fishing and I understand some of the termanology that goes along with it. There is a hell of alot to learn and I don’t even own a rod yet  HELP Thanks Jim Vonderau

Uh, oh… Get ready James… You’ve just called in an artillery strike at your chair!! INCOMING!!! — Michael Era

Question:

MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR (SINKERS, JIGS).  NEW HAMPSHIRE HAS BANNED ALL LEAD SINKERS, JIGS AFTER JANUARY 1, 2000. WHERE IS NEW JERSEY, NEW YORK, PENNSYLVANIA FISH & GAME COUNCILS- HIDING FROM THIS DAMAGE?

Response:

bs1776 YELLS: <<MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR (SINKERS, JIGS). Why are you YELLING?  Where does this Pokras get his info? Loons populations here in New England are anything but endangered.  Besides, very little of the lead found in waters comes from fly fishermen. Dave LaCourse

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Lead has been banned in England for angling purposes for quite some time, as it was also suggested that many water birds, especially swans, were dying of lead poisoning due to ingestion.  Whether or not this is true, ( not many deaths were even proved to be attributable to lead poisoning), most of the lead in the waters concerned was coming from shotgun loads. I suspect this will be mostly the reason elsewhere too. BY THE WAY, THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT, I AM ONLY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ATLANTIC ! TL MC

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(BS1776) writes: MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR (SINKERS, JIGS).  NEW HAMPSHIRE HAS BANNED ALL LEAD SINKERS, JIGS AFTER JANUARY 1, 2000. WHERE IS NEW JERSEY, NEW YORK, PENNSYLVANIA FISH & GAME COUNCILS- HIDING FROM THIS DAMAGE?

May be we should all through our sinkers in the water to get rid of more of them.

Response:

MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR (SINKERS, JIGS).  NEW HAMPSHIRE HAS BANNED ALL LEAD SINKERS, JIGS AFTER JANUARY 1, 2000. WHERE IS NEW JERSEY, NEW YORK, PENNSYLVANIA FISH & GAME COUNCILS- HIDING FROM THIS DAMAGE?

Some loons should be endagered. Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach "Lie ? Me ? Never!  No, no, no, the truth is far too much fun !" – Captain Hook

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Powlesland’s been licking the paint again, eh ? — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Please Take Your Penis Off Of The Shift Key. — Nicholas J. Slodki http://trampled.net/Nikolai0/

:MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE :THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR SINKERS, JIGS).  NEW HAMPSHIRE HAS BANNED ALL LEAD SINKERS, JIGS AFTER JANUARY :1, 2000. WHERE IS NEW JERSEY, NEW YORK, PENNSYLVANIA FISH & GAME COUNCILS- :HIDING FROM THIS DAMAGE?

Response:

Some loons should be endagered. Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach

Would you perhaps be speaking of those AR loons?  When does their season open again?  I have to remember to buy about 20 tags. WF

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season open again?

Perhaps there is no open season because they should not be protected.Uh…is there a bounty on them? Big Dale

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HUH SAY WHAT HUH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – bs1776 YELLS: <<MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR (SINKERS, JIGS). Why are you YELLING?  Where does this Pokras get his info? Loons populations here in New England are anything but endangered.  Besides, very little of the lead found in waters comes from fly fishermen. Dave LaCourse

Response:

MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR (SINKERS, JIGS).  NEW HAMPSHIRE HAS BANNED ALL LEAD SINKERS, JIGS AFTER JANUARY 1, 2000. WHERE IS NEW JERSEY, NEW YORK, PENNSYLVANIA FISH & GAME COUNCILS- HIDING FROM THIS DAMAGE?

George, is this a spam for Xink?

Response:

Question:

Well, you don’t really seem to get my point, Shawnie. THIS IS ALT.SUPPORT.DEPRESSION.MANIC!!! Your war against darkman, who I see as a very compassionate, caring, knowledgeable individual DOES NOT FIT IN HERE! (and yes, I know it is rude to shout. But so are you bringing this here.)

| | |Another thing: have you considered that this is not appropriate for this |group? Instead of posting repeatedly here, why don’t you create a different |feedbackpage where the posts are read before put on the board? | |You don’t know how my cgi guestbook works. I don’t really care how your CGI guestbook works. I suggested you got a different kind of guestbook. | | Not much of a |change…and if you use email to get the mail, it is also easier to track |a..holes such as this through their NNTP-posting host/IP number. | | |not when they use an anonymizer service. No matter. You can still moderate your guestbook and remove obscene messages. I am sure you don’t have such a traffic-volume that this would be a problem. Obscene, anonymized mails could be dealth with – they are always marked with the anon-service abuse-address. I hope you take this fight to another place. It is common netiquette to post ontopic. Haakon

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know what darkman has done and does do for me and you will NEVER convince me that he is the sicko doing this to you. So just deal with it privately and leave the rest of us the HELL alone. I am sick of your posts! — Kimber "Recognize your emotional style and make it work for you."

Response:

darkman frm hell – @38.30.246 / http:// Kill all the runts! let them all die!  Shawnie is a whore and a slut! She fucked her  counsellour then tried to kill him. Signed on: Thu Nov 19 20:59:37 EST 1998 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you considered that this might _not_ be Darkman? He must be a total idiot to leave his nick at a page like this, where you can write anything you wish. And Darkman has come across as many things to me – but not an idiot. Another thing: have you considered that this is not appropriate for this group? Instead of posting repeatedly here, why don’t you create a different feedbackpage where the posts are read before put on the board? Not much of a change…and if you use email to get the mail, it is also easier to track a..holes such as this through their NNTP-posting host/IP number. Namaste, Haakon | | | Click here to see what the loser is up to now |http://adventureangling.com/guestdir/chdguest.htm | | | | | | |Take Care |congenital heart defects webring: | http://adventureangling.com/chd/webring.htm |Adventure Angling |http://adventureangling.com |y2k,chd,BP,MD and fishing book stores: |http://adventureangling.com/books/index.htm

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Have you considered that this might _not_ be Darkman? He must be a total idiot to leave his nick at a page like this, where you can write anything you wish. And Darkman has come across as many things to me – but not an idiot. Another thing: have you considered that this is not appropriate for this group? Instead of posting repeatedly here, why don’t you create a different feedbackpage where the posts are read before put on the board? Not much of a change…and if you use email to get the mail, it is also easier to track a..holes such as this through their NNTP-posting host/IP number. Namaste, Haakon

| | | Click here to see what the loser is up to now |http://adventureangling.com/guestdir/chdguest.htm | | | | | | |Take Care |congenital heart defects webring: | http://adventureangling.com/chd/webring.htm |Adventure Angling |http://adventureangling.com |y2k,chd,BP,MD and fishing book stores: |http://adventureangling.com/books/index.htm

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What is your problem with darkman? Why do you think everyone who calls themselves Darkman are the same person? I am having SERIOUS problems right now and darkman is helping me more than anyone else around. He is hunting up info for me, he is encouraging me (not that a lot of you aren’t helping also). But make sure of your facts before attacking someone who is doing so much good. — Kimber "Recognize your emotional style and make it work for you."

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It is against the law to publicly post private e-mail and it certainly does not belong in this forum.  You are doing the same type of thing that darkman is doing to me. He is taking posts of mine on this NG that I Posted just days after getting out of the hospital and posting them to my guestbooks.  He also e-mails them to me as a form of harassment.  Yes I know it is him his e-mail program used the same reply to e-mail address that he uses here in the NG’s.  Take another look at the obscene messages he posted in my guest book that imply my daughter should be killed http://adventureangling.com/guestdir/chdguest.htm and try to have some compassion. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –             Re: Dark man is at it again         To:  References:             1 , 2 , 3 I don’t care what the hell you think The above email was received by me from editor and is in its unedited version. Catherine I agree with Tunesmith.  Darkman seems not the type to post such trash on editor’s page.  I also think ASDM is NOT the appropriate place to post such accusations about someone. Editor, take the time to track down this person through their IP number and learn who the real poster is to your page. Peace, Catherine Have you considered that this might _not_ be Darkman? He must be a total idiot to leave his nick at a page like this, where you can write anything you wish. And Darkman has come across as many things to me – but not an idiot. Another thing: have you considered that this is not appropriate for this group? Instead of posting repeatedly here, why don’t you create a different feedbackpage where the posts are read before put on the board? Not much of a change…and if you use email to get the mail, it is also easier to track a..holes such as this through their NNTP-posting host/IP number. Namaste, Haakon | | | Click here to see what the loser is up to now |http://adventureangling.com/guestdir/chdguest.htm | | | | | | |Take Care |congenital heart defects webring: | http://adventureangling.com/chd/webring.htm |Adventure Angling |http://adventureangling.com |y2k,chd,BP,MD and fishing book stores: |http://adventureangling.com/books/index.htm Paint the sky with stars So our spirits have to fly. Paint the sky with stars So our spirits have to fly.

Response:

Question:

Does anyone have any idea how the fishing on this river is. We will be in the area and want to find out what species of fish are in it. Thanks in advance, bruce

Response:

Does anyone have any idea how the fishing on this river is. We will be in the area and want to find out what species of fish are in it. Thanks in advance, bruce

Bruce, I don’t know about the Blackwater River in Virginia.  There is some good fly fishing "near" the Blackwater River in West Virginia.  If that is where you are going, then E-mail me. Doug Milam

Response:

Does anyone have any idea how the fishing on this river is. We will be in the area and want to find out what species of fish are in it. Thanks in advance, bruce Bruce, I don’t know about the Blackwater River in Virginia.  There is some good fly fishing "near" the Blackwater River in West Virginia.  If that is where you are going, then E-mail me.

That isn’t where I’m going but I will be in Charlottesville, VA next week and actually will have time to fish one or two days.  Someone mentioned the Rapidan about a week ago.  How’s it looking now?  Any other places I might try? John Fereira

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Question:

of course it does, it fits the rest of the profile. TimW

Response:

I’ve been trying straighten out my subscription for months. Those people just seem clueless. Needless to say, I’ll not renew. AL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the hope that someone connected with that magazine reads this….. Every year our flyfishing club has a banquet. Every year, after spending umpteen bucks on raffle tickets, I wind up with a free subscription to Fly Fishing Magazine. Every year I send in the letter, and every year I don’t get squat! Well after 3 years of this I sent a letter to the magazine’s subscription dept. Guess what I got? A subscription to Horse and Rider! I know you’re laughing…..hey cut it out, I’m pissed off. I guess I’m saying, think twice before you subscribe to this magazine. Who knows if they’ll ever get it right.

Response:

In the hope that someone connected with that magazine reads this….. Every year our flyfishing club has a banquet. Every year, after spending umpteen bucks on raffle tickets, I wind up with a free subscription to Fly Fishing Magazine. Every year I send in the letter, and every year I don’t get squat! Well after 3 years of this I sent a letter to the magazine’s subscription dept. Guess what I got? A subscription to Horse and Rider! I know you’re laughing…..hey cut it out, I’m pissed off. I guess I’m saying, think twice before you subscribe to this magazine. Who knows if they’ll ever get it right.

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Question:

I would advise against wrapping any guide that’s bigger than you.  -AR

Response:

If you use no color preserver, you take away the option of ever replacing a guide if you need to.  There is no way to remove the wrap without destroying the blank.

Bad advice here!  It is actually quite easy to remove a guide wrapped with non-NCP thread.  Done correctly, there will be no damage to the blank.  Simply cut through the wrap and epoxy with a single edge razor.  Slice along the guide foot to help avoid nicking the blank. Once you get started, simply slip your fingernail under the wrap and it will peel off.  No problem. I think your mass production types are more interested in eliminating a step from the manufacturing process (properly applied and allowed to dry, color preserver would add about 24 hours) than blending the color of the thread into the blank.

Actually, I think most manufacturers use non-NCP because most buyers prefer the look. You are correct however that the wrap will be stronger when the epoxy finish is applied without color preserver.  OTOH, I’ve been told that when properly done, the wrap alone should provide all the strength required to hold the guide on the rod and you should not rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap.

It is true that you should never rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap, but then you would always use a finish, so whether the thread wrap alone would be strong enough over time to hold the guide is academic.  Go for the strongest wrap you can and use non-NCP thread except for trim rings. Lyman Lyman G. Hughes Dallas, TX Ennis, MT

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bad advice here!  It is actually quite easy to remove a guide wrapped with non-NCP thread.  Done correctly, there will be no damage to the blank.  Simply cut through the wrap and epoxy with a single edge razor.  Slice along the guide foot to help avoid nicking the blank. Once you get started, simply slip your fingernail under the wrap and it will peel off.  No problem. Actually, I think most manufacturers use non-NCP because most buyers prefer the look. It is true that you should never rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap, but then you would always use a finish, so whether the thread wrap alone would be strong enough over time to hold the guide is academic.  Go for the strongest wrap you can and use non-NCP thread except for trim rings.

Great post, Lyman. My 15 years of building custom fly rods for myself, others, and commercially confirm everything you’ve said. In my rod repairs, I have never encountered a situation where blank damage has occurred when removing a guide, even on rods that had been wrapped 25 years ago. It just takes care and patience. I use standard thread with no color preservers on 90% of the rods I build. The bottom line is this technique is the best way to obtain a wrap that closely matches the color of the blank. This "stealthiness" has invaded the fly rod industry. Just take a look at Sage’s new SP line or Winston’s IM6 rods and you’ll see why the process looks so good. Ryan

Response:

If you use no color preserver, you take away the option of ever replacing a guide if you need to.  There is no way to remove the wrap without destroying the blank. Bad advice here!  It is actually quite easy to remove a guide wrapped with non-NCP thread.  Done correctly, there will be no damage to the blank.  Simply cut through the wrap and epoxy with a single edge razor.  Slice along the guide foot to help avoid nicking the blank. Once you get started, simply slip your fingernail under the wrap and it will peel off.  No problem.

Are you kidding?  What kind of "epoxy" are you using?  When applied without color preserver the finish soaks through the thread and comes into direct contact with the blank.  I have encountered no epoxy that will "peel off" of anything. Every time I’ve tried what you mention, the thread/finish combination has turned into a solid mass.  I’ve tried exactly what you describe and cut along the guide foot with a razor.  When I pulled off the guide (with much effort) the rest of the wrap/finish stayed right where it was and left a nice solid wrap with a trench gug out where the guide foot had been.

Response:

I used straight epoxy with no color preserve and had my rod spinner break down during the night. I woke up wih big bellies in all my wraps. I just cut them off fairly easily with a rasor and re-wrapped the whole rod. It wasn’t a big project to remove the old wrappings.

Response:

Quoting "DavidC.Benjamin"<dcb from a message in rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    <I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for    <guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point    <I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied    <with the results when finished. David – If you use non-NCP thread withoput applying color preserver it will become somewhat transparent when you apply the rod finish.  How transparent will depend on the color thread used.  If you look at some  factory rods its easy to see which brands do not use color preserver as the guidefeet show thru the wraps.  If you use color preserver the non-NCP thread will have a sparkley coloring as opposed to the flatter colors of the NCP thread.  It’s really personal preference which you prefer more. Jim Carlisle

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there?

I think many of the major fly rod manufacturers use non-NCP thread with no color preserver. This is not the way they finish those cool convetional salt water sticks. You will get a transparent result with no color preserver on standard thread. This gives them a clean look with the thread blending with the blank and also allows the epoxy to penetrate the thread better to bond with the blank. I have been selling rod building supplies for over 30 years and have heard almost every story imaginable. If someone has better info I will not be shocked as I have been wrong before. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there? I think many of the major fly rod manufacturers use non-NCP thread with no color preserver. This is not the way they finish those cool convetional salt water sticks. You will get a transparent result with no color preserver on standard thread. This gives them a clean look with the thread blending with the blank and also allows the epoxy to penetrate the thread better to bond with the blank. I have been selling rod building supplies for over 30 years and have heard almost every story imaginable. If someone has better info I will not be shocked as I have been wrong before. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

But… If you use no color preserver, you take away the option of ever replacing a guide if you need to.  There is no way to remove the wrap without destroying the blank. I think your mass production types are more interested in eliminating a step from the manufacturing process (properly applied and allowed to dry, color preserver would add about 24 hours) than blending the color of the thread into the blank. You are correct however that the wrap will be stronger when the epoxy finish is applied without color preserver.  OTOH, I’ve been told that when properly done, the wrap alone should provide all the strength required to hold the guide on the rod and you should not rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there? I think many of the major fly rod manufacturers use non-NCP thread with no color preserver. This is not the way they finish those cool convetional salt water sticks. You will get a transparent result with no color preserver on standard thread. This gives them a clean look with the thread blending with the blank and also allows the epoxy to penetrate the thread better to bond with the blank. I have been selling rod building supplies for over 30 years and have heard almost every story imaginable. If someone has better info I will not be shocked as I have been wrong before. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

I always use color preservative to provide the ability to replace the guide (it WILL happen) and to seal the underwrap/blank wrap. In addition I find that the application of epoxy is easier (resulting in a much better finish) since I don’t have to hunt for gaps in the thread (the preserver fills it in). Of course as you say there are a million stroies and a million ways …. "The true angler is always content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo

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Using that dark thread on a similarly-colored blank, you shouldn’t have any trouble.  I build a lot of salt-water "standup" tuna rods on black Seeker blanks, and use medium blue non-NCP A thread for base wraps.  It works fine–as does the even lighter grey "gunmetal" thread I’m now using on a pair of Shakespeare Ugly Sticks.  Just be careful to use enough coats of color preserver, and soak all of the wrap.  I usually use 3 coats half-strength and 2 coats full strength (Clemens "Brilliance" brand) before applying the epoxy coats.  If you see "bleed-through" with the color preserver that doesn’t disappear when the preserver dries, you have a problem.  Redo that wrap.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there?

There is a very good chance that the thread will become somewhat transparent when you apply epoxy.  The way to solve this problem is to use colour preserver.  One of the best brands available in my opinion is U40 Color Lock.   I think you will be pleased with regular thread over NCP thread.  This type of thread has stronger highlights when used with color preserver, and I think looks much better than NCP.  As well, an added bonus is that Regular thread is a little stronger than NCP as well it is not as porous, therefore, you will not have the same bubble problems that may occur with NCP. Ian Scott Wishbone Custom Rods http://www.headwaters.com/wishbone

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I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there?

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                                                                    The thing that got me was that i read Lyman Hugh’s response, when he stated that he was always disappointed to see them on the end of the line.  My question is, if the fish fight well (which they really do), and if they aren’t too ugly (which, in my book, they’re not), then why the disappointmentR?

A)…..white fish can’t jump! B)…..they fight hard for few moments, and then poop out, perhaps        because their mouths are so small, so they run out of oxygen        faster. C)…..they’re good smoked, a delicacy, in fact. Because of their        oily flesh, they take the smoke better. (But they’re hard to        keep lit). —

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I’m pretty sure you are now talking about 2 different species of fish. The whitefish in Montana looks a lot like a grayling/sucker, relatively long and thin.  The Great Lakes whitefish, a delicacy, is a chunky, somewhat oily fish that is a high-priced restaurant meal, commercially netted.  I have caught them in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area, rising at dusk to the white may flies that come in August.  They are usually broiled with paprika, andthe fillets are delicious. Whitefish are sought after up here in Ontario. You guys don’t know what

you’re missing. They fillet great and are also stuffed/baked. They must be good ifthey are sold commeircially here but I get mine thru the ice on Simcoe andwould rank them behind crappie and walleye in terms of tastiness They – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -will also hit minnows and jigs. — Richard Park    

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Well, I ditched work for the afternoon yesterday and ventured out upon the local waters and managed to catch my first brown trout (2 of ‘em, actually — I’m a novice ffisherman).  I also caught a mountain whitefish.  I’ve caught a couple of whitefish now.  The fishing proclamation calls them gamefish here in Utah, but to my knowledge, most fishermen treat them as trash fish.

Jay, I’ve caught mountain whitefish and a couple of species of lake w’fish. They taste just fine. Despite the scales, they’re salmonids (as are grayling). The mountain species lives in substantially the same waters as trout, eats almost the same stuff, and fights quite respectably. Unfortunately, there is a perception on some waters that fish fall into one of two categories (trout & trash). Sad — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

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inhis posting on whitefish, Jay stated The fishing proclamation calls them gamefish here in Utah, but to my knowledge, most fishermen treat them as trash fish. Does anyone know if whitefish are edible?  (Well, of *course* they’re edible, but does anybody purposely fish for them and take them home for supper?)

     Whitefish are excellent eating, and they are truly wonderful smoked, which is easy to do. There is a good article and recipe in the latest issue of Big Sky Journal. Whitefish are best eaten when caught in the colder weather months, i.e. November through April.       In addition, whitefish provide some pretty good sport to any Ffisher with an open mind. They take dry flies, love nymphs, and fight respectably. They are NOT a trash fish. The term Trash Fish usually conjures up images of fish species that take over sections of river that become either too warm or too polluted to sustain hte more desireable game fish.  Also, trash fish are often accused, either rightly or wrongly,  of having a negative impact on trout or other gamefish populations, which is certainly not the case with Whitefish.      Whitefish, require the same pristine river conditions that trout do. Chances are that a river that can no longer sustain breeding trout populations can’t sustain whitefish either. They too are an indicator species for water quality. Finally they are a member of the overall family of which trout are also members, like second or third cousins, so they cant be all bad!  I wish trout fishermen who catch them would stop throwing them on the banks to die needlessly, and either return them to the rivers or take them home and make use out of them Dale Owens

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Well, Me and my girlfriend caught a couple on accident while fishing for crappie.  We took it home, and filleted them.  We froze them and then took them out of the freezer to thaw.  The thawed for a while (we went somewhere that weekend), and when we came back, they were ruined.  They filleted real nicely and had a lot of boneless meat to them, so They would not be a problem to try them and see if they are any good.  I hear they are good smoked.  We hear about them all the time in our hunting and fishing news, they are active about the same time the other fishes are spawning (they eat eggs).  People catch them on whitefish flies (what are whitefish flies), and also with a maggot on the fly.  This did not answer the question, but had to say my piece.

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Whitefish are sought after up here in Ontario. You guys don’t know what you’re missing. They fillet great and are also stuffed/baked. They must be good if they are sold commeircially here but I get mine thru the ice on Simcoe and would rank them behind crappie and walleye in terms of tastiness They will also hit minnows and jigs. — Richard Park    

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.. would not be a problem to try them and see if they are any good.  I hear they are good smoked. …

I really like them smoked (although a lot of bones, but I don’t mind) … Peter

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Jay  Clibern writes:

"The fishing proclamation calls them gamefish here in Utah, but to my knowledge, most fishermen treat them as trash fish. Does anyone know if whitefish are edible?  (Well, of *course* they’re edible, but does anybody purposely fish for them and take them home for supper?)" Jay – As ugly as they are, they are edible – smoked is the only way that I know of.  I can’t say I am a big fan, but lots of folks like them.  If you fish around Ennis, MT on the Madison, you can take 4 or 5 (or fewer) whitefish into the Resvedts Meat market, give them a fish and a dollar for each fish, and they will give you an already smoked whitefish. A big surprise to me is the fact that the whitefish is part of the trout family.  Hard to believe.  I don’t like whitefish (could you tell?), and to me nothing is as frustration as thinking you ahve a big trout on the line only to see that slimey rubber lipped head appear.  But that’s ony one man’s opinion. Lyman Hughes Ennis, MT Dallas, TX                                               Dallas, TX                                               Ennis, MT

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The round whitefish is another Great Lakes species. Locally they are called "Menominee." I catch them off Michigan piers in October to freeze up. In 1994 I fished as late as after Christmas. They bite on a single poached salmon egg on the bottom. They are timid biters and the real trick is to know when they are after the bait. My family considers them delicious. Incidently, nobody fishes for them on the Wisconsin side of the lake. Wisconsin comercial fishermen net them but I’ve never seen anyone fishing for them in the Michigan manner.

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you are correct about the Lake witefishes.  But the mountain whitefish of the Rockies and the Truckee drainage in California/Nevada ( The answer to a trivia question about distribution of Western Salomids before coming of the european )  are a completely different case then the  whitefish of the Great Lakes.        The Mountain Whitefish, otherwise Known as Salmo ( as they are a salmonid )  Carpi, have been extending their range.  It seams that with all the "progress"  and the wonderful benefit that strip mining brings to the landscape and the stream.  That the Mountain Whitefish is able to withstand the rapid changes in its environment, better then the trout.

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I think that all the answers to the original note follow pretty much what I have read and heard about Whitefish.  I have just one other thought.  I am a catch-and-releaser, mainly because I really don’t like trout that much.  But that’s another story.  I have caught a zillion whitefish in Montana and Wyoming and I can truly say that in most cases I didn’t know they were whitefish until I got them up close in the stream.  That says that they gave me the fight I was looking for and if you don’t keep the fish, what difference does it make if it isn’t a trout but gives you pleasure in catching it?  I’ll have to admit I’m always a little disappointed when I see it’s not a trout since I came to catch trout.  But – accept the fun of the catch and the fight and enjoy the experience. John B. in Mpls..

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Re: white fish-Not to rehash other wf remarks, but … they do fight well and taste great! Have caught them in Madison fried them for breakfast and grilled them. Meat is white and chunky. I caught 16 last year on dry files in about 30 minutes. Way to tell if guy down stream has a wf, the rod tip will jiggle up and down and trout have more steady bend. I got ‘em, turned away from crowd to release them, still in water and everyone thought I was catching trout!!! Was fun.

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