Question:

If you are interested at all in fishing this area, which is widely regarded as some of the best flyfishing in the State, please contact your state representative and state senator. By all means. Thanks, Stan.

Is this area of no importance, security-wise? Why do we want t opened if it a potential target? BTW, did they ever find out who flew over the Quabbin’s restricted airpace on Sep 11 / 12? — Gary M

Response:

If you are interested at all in fishing this area, which is widely regarded as some of the best flyfishing in the State, please contact your state representative and state senator. Is this area of no importance, security-wise? Why do we want t opened if it a potential target?

Because it’s mine (and yours, if you pay taxes) and I (we) paid for it. If they wish to have security check to make sure only U.S. citizens are allowed, that’s fine. If they want to impose an extra fee for entrance to offset costs of additional security, I could probably even live with that, if it weren’t for the fact that these fees would probably remain permanently. I’ve not seen many "temporary" fees, taxes, or tolls removed in my lifetime – especially while in Massachusetts. We should not be content to let our freedoms slip away because of the attacks on 9/11. What the past has always dictated to us is that freedoms, once lost, are difficult to regain. BTW, did they ever find out who flew over the Quabbin’s restricted airpace on Sep 11 / 12?

That’s a good question. I never heard anything further on that incident. I guess we can’t blame that on some rambunctious teenagers, can we? Tim

Response:

Is this area of no importance, security-wise? Why do we want t opened if it a potential target?

To be truthful, the only reason I would like to see it opened is to keep Easterners off the stretches I like to fish. It’s really not a big security risk, but the the people tasked with protecting it are a lot more paranoid than normal people (that’s their job).  The proposed access restrictions were a good compromise between full access and protection of the two areas that are really security problems (both of which are buildings that could easily be fenced off and monitored). BTW, did they ever find out who flew over the Quabbin’s restricted airpace on Sep 11 / 12?

At least one plane was identified and I believe the pilot got a substantial fine.  FWIW, before people got all nervous, flights over Quabbin occurred almost daily, and many flew lower than regulations.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this area of no importance, security-wise? Why do we want t opened if it a potential target? To be truthful, the only reason I would like to see it opened is to keep Easterners off the stretches I like to fish. It’s really not a big security risk, but the the people tasked with protecting it are a lot more paranoid than normal people (that’s their job).  The proposed access restrictions were a good compromise between full access and protection of the two areas that are really security problems (both of which are buildings that could easily be fenced off and monitored). BTW, did they ever find out who flew over the Quabbin’s restricted airpace on Sep 11 / 12? At least one plane was identified and I believe the pilot got a substantial fine.  FWIW, before people got all nervous, flights over Quabbin occurred almost daily, and many flew lower than regulations.

I found it interesting (read absurd) that they opened access to the actual reservoir and closed a section of river past the public water supply. Paul

Response:

I found it interesting (read absurd) that they opened access to the actual reservoir and closed a section of river past the public water supply.

The Y-Pool area is probably the most vulnerable to an attack, ad it affords access to the base of the dam, via the defunct power station, and the filtration plant on Rte 9. The powers that be have admitted that poisonong is not a major concern because of the amount of water involved, but destruction of the dam is considered a likely objective. That said, it is highly unlikely that the dam would be a priority target for terrorists, and New York City, which currently has similar restrictions on their water supply, will allow access to their watershed staring April 1. As Stan pointed out, the barring of access to the Y-Pool is simply paranoia exhibited by the state police.It;s also a lot simpler for them if no access is allowed….they can simply arrest everyone they see in there, although they couldn’t catch the kids, (if there actually were any), that were tresspassing a few weeks ago. Shows how effective the regulations would be against terrorists. Definitely time to put some pressure on our legislators. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Steve Brewer is for real – he’s solidly on the side of sportsmen.

Balsnce snipped for brevity. Unfortunately there were only four of us at the meeting interested in the Swift, while there were forty or so interested in the Quabbin. Strength in numbers and all that. FWIW, I emailed Sen. Brewer and Rep.Hillman. I have not heard from Brewer, but received an immsdiate reply from Hillman, pledging his support. Since he is the retired commandant of the State Police, he should carry some weight, but he will have to know that a number of others are interested. I just sent out the monthly WMFF newsletter, and included a plea for members to contact their legislators. I would hope TU does likewise. Unfortunately, even though the upper Swift always seems crowded,  there is a relatively small number of people that utilize the area, and they reside in several different districts, so there isn’t enough voting power to make this a hot issue, politically. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

I received a reply letter from Steven Brewer (State Senator) yesterday that states he is also behind the cause and has already called for and conducted meetings regarding this issue. It’s hard to tell from the letter how much is real trying versus political posturing, but he’s been honorable in the past and I wouldn’t expect anything different now. If I remember, I’ll scan it and post it on ABPF for all to read. It looks like a form letter, so I hope he’s received many complaints about opening the area to fly fishing. Tim

Steve Brewer is for real – he’s solidly on the side of sportsmen.  He’s the guy who ran the meetings at Quabbin when they were first discussing the issues a few weeks ago.  Unfortunately, as he put it at the last meeting I went to, the people in Boston stole the water fair and square and will steal access rights to the surrounding land if they can. –Stan

Response:

Mass. MDC issued a press release yesterday confirming the rumors that the section of the Swift River north of Route 9 will remain closed ‘for the foreseeable future’ due to security concerns.  The full press release is available at the MDC web site at http://www.state.ma.us/mdc/prsrel.htm The area was scheduled to re-open on April 13, but as the State Police and National Guard were reviewing security measures, there was an ‘incident’ with some trespassers who the guards were not able to catch.  So, the State Police commander has decided to keep the area completely closed. If you are interested at all in fishing this area, which is widely regarded as some of the best flyfishing in the State, please contact your state representative and state senator.

I received a reply letter from Steven Brewer (State Senator) yesterday that states he is also behind the cause and has already called for and conducted meetings regarding this issue. It’s hard to tell from the letter how much is real trying versus political posturing, but he’s been honorable in the past and I wouldn’t expect anything different now. If I remember, I’ll scan it and post it on ABPF for all to read. It looks like a form letter, so I hope he’s received many complaints about opening the area to fly fishing. Tim

Response:

. If they want to impose an extra fee for entrance to offset costs of additional security, I could probably even live with that, if it weren’t for the fact that these fees would probably remain permanently. I’ve not seen many "temporary" fees, taxes, or tolls removed in my lifetime – especially while in Massachusetts.

Few things can outlive a "temporary" tax. We should not be content to let our freedoms slip away because of the attacks on 9/11. What the past has always dictated to us is that freedoms, once lost, are difficult to regain.

While that is a true enough sentiment, the various elements which endanger various freedoms and which (sometimes at the cost of flesh & blood) ensure freedoms are so complex as to defy armchair analysis. The biggest threat to all of us and all our freedoms is inertia: let somebody else take the risk/pay the price/challenge the threat. We don’t necessarily have to become as dramatic as Thomas Jefferson’s comment about watering the tree of freedom with the blood of tyrants and patriots, but we ALL have to be willing to give up a little ‘comfort’ here and there. And I use the word ‘comfort’ to suggest we all too readily take for granted, even not realizing it, that we got where we are by spilling the blood of tyrants & patriots. The movie "The Patriot" is a little melodramatic in order to keep the plot development going for the viewers’ eyes but underneath it’s a good example of how each person must be prepared to react. We’ve all seen the marvelous photo of 4 GI’s raising Old Glory on Mount Suribaci. Three of those guys were dead by suppertime that same day. Get involved. Stay involved. If you’re worried about the cost you don’t deserve the freedoms. Sermon ends. Yours in the north Maine woods, Pete Hilton aka The Ent — A person is free only in the freedom of other persons.   W. Berry

Response:

Mass. MDC issued a press release yesterday confirming the rumors that the section of the Swift River north of Route 9 will remain closed ‘for the foreseeable future’ due to security concerns.  The full press release is available at the MDC web site at http://www.state.ma.us/mdc/prsrel.htm The area was scheduled to re-open on April 13, but as the State Police and National Guard were reviewing security measures, there was an ‘incident’ with some trespassers who the guards were not able to catch.  So, the State Police commander has decided to keep the area completely closed. If you are interested at all in fishing this area, which is widely regarded as some of the best flyfishing in the State, please contact your state representative and state senator.

So far, I’ve only heard back from Reed Hillman, who is firmly behind eliminating restrictions. I’m sure he won’t mind me quoting him in this group: "Dear Tim – I agree with you 100%.  Harassing ordinary citizens who wish to enjoy the Quabbin does not deter any potential terrorist one iota.  I will continue to try to get a common sense approach to Quabbin security adopted." Hopefully, our voices will be heard. Tim

Response:

Mass. MDC issued a press release yesterday confirming the rumors that the section of the Swift River north of Route 9 will remain closed ‘for the foreseeable future’ due to security concerns.  The full press release is available at the MDC web site at http://www.state.ma.us/mdc/prsrel.htm The area was scheduled to re-open on April 13, but as the State Police and National Guard were reviewing security measures, there was an ‘incident’ with some trespassers who the guards were not able to catch.  So, the State Police commander has decided to keep the area completely closed. If you are interested at all in fishing this area, which is widely regarded as some of the best flyfishing in the State, please contact your state representative and state senator. –Stan Gula

Response:

Mass. MDC issued a press release yesterday confirming the rumors that the section of the Swift River north of Route 9 will remain closed ‘for the foreseeable future’ due to security concerns.  The full press release is available at the MDC web site at http://www.state.ma.us/mdc/prsrel.htm

Crap. And as Stan said before, there’s no fishing allowed south of Cady Lane either, right Stan? The area was scheduled to re-open on April 13, but as the State Police and National Guard were reviewing security measures, there was an ‘incident’ with some trespassers who the guards were not able to catch.  So, the State Police commander has decided to keep the area completely closed.

What I heard was that three (probably beer drinking) kids were out for thrills to see if they could get by the security. Any truth to this? If so, we could hire these kids to check the airports nationwide. If you are interested at all in fishing this area, which is widely regarded as some of the best flyfishing in the State, please contact your state representative and state senator.

By all means. Thanks, Stan. Tim

Response:

Mass. MDC issued a press release yesterday confirming the rumors that the section of the Swift River north of Route 9 will remain closed ‘for the foreseeable future’ due to security concerns.  The full press release is available at the MDC web site at http://www.state.ma.us/mdc/prsrel.htm Crap. And as Stan said before, there’s no fishing allowed south of Cady Lane either, right Stan?

It’s allowed, but useless as there’s no fish.  I hear there’s some nice carp and eels way down in the Chicopee below Three Rivers though<g. What I heard was that three (probably beer drinking) kids were out for thrills to see if they could get by the security.

That’s pretty much the story I heard.  I don’t know about the thrillseeking part, but they must have gotten a thrill from being chased by armed Guardsmen.  All it takes is a few jerks to ruin it for everybody.  Until that happened, it looked really good for re-opening the area. –Stan

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Question:

I have no idea of your motives BUT one thing I do know, DO NOT EVER SEND ME a private email again. 14 who was just wonder what your original post was meant to convey and who is now pissed that you sent me a private post.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     This is confusing.  Did you believe me to have a nepharious motive?  I don’t know what your motive is since I don’t know you.  I don’t believe you know me.  Let’s keep it that way shall we? 14 Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. -snipped to save bandwidth-

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    This is confusing.  Did you believe me to have a nepharious motive?  I don’t know what your motive is since I don’t know you.  I don’t believe you know me.  Let’s keep it that way shall we?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 14 Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. -snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

14

Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham.

-snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

    I did not realize it would upset you.  You can be certain I won’t send you a private e-mail again.  I promise.  But you do not have any right whatsoever to show such agression to me about it.  If you wish to protect your privacy then don’t include your e-mail address.  It is a simple matter to remove it.     My original post was intended to be helpful and interesting, nothing more.  It arose from the presence of the very disagreable post concerning cr**lty to animals.  I feared that a cross-posted item like that would harm the "nice" (I was sure fooled) atmosphere I found here.     You go ahead and be "pissed" at me.  But if you don’t want to recieve e-mails again in future it is your responsibility to remove your e-mail something.     Don’t worry.  I have removed you from my contacts list as I reserve that for friends.  And since I intend to forget about you, it doesn’t matter a tinker’s damm if you are "pissed" at me. Peter

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have no idea of your motives BUT one thing I do know, DO NOT EVER SEND ME a private email again. 14 who was just wonder what your original post was meant to convey and who is now pissed that you sent me a private post.     This is confusing.  Did you believe me to have a nepharious motive? I don’t know what your motive is since I don’t know you.  I don’t believe you know me.  Let’s keep it that way shall we? 14 Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. -snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

Dear Peter… I have been a member of this ng for a very long time.  I don’t post as frequently as I’d like so I will say this to you… I was not threatening you, I told you not to do it again, which is not a threat, it is a request. If you ask other members of this ng about private postings that are uninvited I’m sure you will get as much information as you need to know, it’s a very tricky proposition here.  It is very scary for people to get unsolicited private email from people they do not know, especially when it appears to be a flame. Check it out… As for my email address… it has always been used on this ng and will continue to be used on this ng.  For you to tell me not to use it is absurd and I will NOT remove it, is that clear?  You have an obligation on this ng to check out whether or not a person will accept private emails before you send one. And BTW Itchy is one of my insiders, it’s not a joke as you make it out to be and I resent it.  My name is 14, a name, not a number. As for the animal post, I was not and will not be a part of that thread so I don’t know the history of it since I didn’t read it. 14 who is trying to not lose her temper because you are an new comer to the group. PS I never asked to be on your contact list!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I did not realize it would upset you.  You can be certain I won’t send you a private e-mail again.  I promise.  But you do not have any right whatsoever to show such agression to me about it.  If you wish to protect your privacy then don’t include your e-mail address.  It is a simple matter to remove it.     My original post was intended to be helpful and interesting, nothing more.  It arose from the presence of the very disagreable post concerning cr**lty to animals.  I feared that a cross-posted item like that would harm the "nice" (I was sure fooled) atmosphere I found here.     You go ahead and be "pissed" at me.  But if you don’t want to recieve e-mails again in future it is your responsibility to remove your e-mail something.     Don’t worry.  I have removed you from my contacts list as I reserve that for friends.  And since I intend to forget about you, it doesn’t matter a tinker’s damm if you are "pissed" at me. Peter I have no idea of your motives BUT one thing I do know, DO NOT EVER SEND ME a private email again. 14 who was just wonder what your original post was meant to convey and who is now pissed that you sent me a private post.     This is confusing.  Did you believe me to have a nepharious motive? I don’t know what your motive is since I don’t know you.  I don’t believe you know me.  Let’s keep it that way shall we? 14 Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. -snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. What is a troll? The term "troll" has several meanings on usenet. You have the Real Life[tm] meanings as given to us by Merriam Webster: troll (trol) v. 1.To fish for by running a baited line behind a slowly moving boat n 1. A creature of Scandinavian folklore variously portrayed as a dwarf or giant living in caves or under bridges. And then there’s the usenet meanings – which are actually rather similar to those above. In the case of the verb, the definition is close – with one small twist; _you_ are the thing that someone is trying to catch – and catch you they will if you aren’t wary. For bait, the troll will often take the form of a derogatory post – one that is designed to incite as much reaction as possible. For each person who responds, the poster will consider that person "caught". The troll is considered to have been a complete success if it disrupts the normal traffic on a newsgroup. In extreme cases, trolls are posted by groups of people and crossposted to unrelated newsgroups in an attempt to destroy those groups by flooding them with flames and off-topic ranting. Then, there is the noun, which again is nearly dead on, but this type of troll has an e-mail account, a global bridge to hide under, and a fishing pole to match – beware, for the hills are full of ‘em. How can I spot a troll? Most trolls take the form of blanket statements designed solely to generate as many irate responses as possible. Posts with subject lines such as: "Macs suck Worse than Amiga’s!" or "Mac Users are pathetic losers" Are most likely trolls. Also, trolls love to generate mayhem by crossposting derogatory statements to two rival groups and watching the sparks fly as the groups flame each other into oblivion. That being the case, it is usually a good idea to think _very_ long and hard before responding to anything that is crossposted. If you must reply to a crossposted message – edit the header to only include one newsgroup; otherwise, take it to e-mail – or risk being branded a weenie for life. Trolls can also pop up in existing threads. These are usually the most distressing as they are unsuspected. Suddenly, you are confronted with someone you believe to be a mac user , who has taken a ridiculous position which just pisses you off from here to hades.  Remember, if you find yourself thinking, "I can’t believe this guy", it’s a good chance that the post is a troll. You’ll know for sure if the same person is consistently stupid and infuriating throughout the majority of his posts to the newsgroup. Are trolls made by real people? Nope. Trolls are made by nasty little people who crave far more attention than they deserve. Most of them are inadequate losers with absolutely_no_lives_what_so_ever! Remember that, a troll, by virtue of their lack of a life, will always have more time on his hands than you – it’s part of the inhuman nature of the beast. Also, be advised that trolls will also band together. There is a group of people known as alt.syntax.tactical who make it their life’s work to destroy as many groups as they can. They consider a group destroyed when more than three quarters of the threads on a group have been started by them; and the group is unusable for normal traffic. Why do trolls troll? Ah, good question. While there is no way of knowing why all trolls troll, there are some good theories. The general concensus is that the troll is trying to build up a flaccid ego; the troll sees himself as superior to anyone who responds to the bait. The worst thing you can do, in the eyes of the troll, is not respond at all – to absolutely ignore them. By not reacting, you have completely defeated their purpose in life. In other words, the troll sees his self-worth in how much of a reaction he can inspire – ignore him, and you confirm his worthlessness. It’s your best weapon. What’s the best way to deal with a troll? Contrary to most people’s natural instincts, the best tactic is to do absolutely nothing. In other words, _DO_NOT_ respond to a troll. To do so is to play entirely into the trolls hands. I cannot stress this enough. If left alone, the troll will usually get bored and go away – leaving many happy Mac Users to ride off into the sunset doing various backwards and forwards victory dances. Read that last paragraph carefully. It is of the highest importance if we are to keep trolls at bay. So, remember, a troll’s greatest joy is to piss _YOU_ off. Unless you deny him what he wants, he will stay around for more – gleefully feasting off your frustration, anger, indignation and vain attempts to reason with him. If you look right through him like everyone else in his miserable stinking life has, then he will usually slither back into his cave and/or find his prey elsewhere. I can flame with the best of ‘em – shouldn’t I just drive them off? Unfortuantely, no. The above assumption is based on the premise that trolls are actually like real people. They are not; they thrive off of negative input. Input in any form makes them feel more important and will only cause them to stay. Sure, you may be able to successfully spank a troll here or there if you are good – and we mean DAMN good. Flaming is an art that many, many, try, few master, and nearly all think they are good at. As a rule, DON’T flame ‘em, it does NOT work and will only prolong the agony for everybody else. But they make me so mad I want to scream – can I? By all means no! If you must scream, do so at your neighbors cat or the PC at work. It will be much more effective than screaming at the troll. If you absolutely must respond due to some personal neurological disorder, please do so in email and not on the group. Admitedly screaming at the troll via e-mail isn’t always possible because of certian troll tactics, but it is your only recourse. To respond to the troll on the newsgroup will only invite alt.mac members to flame you and b*at you about the head, – and not necessarily in that order. The troll won’t go away – there must be *something* I can do? YES! Some trolls just don’t know when to give up. These can be referred to as "klingons" – as they keep "clinging on" to the notion that their continued presence his going to eventually make somebody snap. You have several lines of defense at your disposal. The first, and possibly the best, thing that you can do is learn how to use a k*llfile. A k*llfile is a list of people and places that you want your newsbrowser to ignore. Thus, if you add the troll to your k*llfile, you’ll barely know they exist. It’s like magic (amazing, eh?). The second major thing you can do is complain to their postmaster. The postmaster is the person who has the job of making sure that everything runs smoothly at a given news/internet provider. Since a postmaster is often overworked, the last thing he wants to deal with is some weenie on his site causing all kinds of problems. Thus, the only way to fix the problem is to get rid of the source. That’s right, enough complaints to the postmaster, and the nasty little trolls are gone – tossed onto the streets and looking for another cave to be miserable in. -BUT- and this is a big but, if the troll is using a forged account, your complaints either won’t mean a thing, or will get someone else (other than the troll) in hot water.  So, be careful and don’t do try it unless you know what you’re doing. Okay, then how do I contact a postmaster? really pissed you off for the last time and you feel it’s time to complain. To complain to his postmaster you would end it to: this, though, is many trolls use fake addresses or anon. remailers; so getting the trolls real address is impossible. If the address is fake (rather than a remailer), checking the header can often give you the originating site Also, a good letter to a postmaster should start with a brief and polite comment, saying that the troll in question is causing trouble on the newsgroup with his off-topic rantings. Most postmasters will not yank accounts just for offensive behaviour (thank goodness, since anything you say has the potential to offend -someone-); but they will yank accounts for persistent off-topic posting. Lastly, the letter should then include the -entire- text of the offensive post, WITH HEADERS INTACT. Do not edit. But, I want to rip the troll’s throat out so hard it makes his whole family hurt for years – what else is there that I can do? Well, while I don’t officially advocate it, you _can_ engage in "A Slight Case of Overbombing." That is: The Mail Bomb- a nasty weapon usually reserved for the nastiest of trolls and is best when done by many people working in concert with one another. Mailbombs _can_ blow up in your face, even if they are successful. Once a "person’s" mailbox is full, all mail sent is often reflected back at the sender. There are also other nastinesses that can transpire, but they are beyond the scope of this. What’s a flame? Well, the following is taken from the EFF’s Guide to the Internet, v.2.21 -it seems to sum it up the best: "A flame is a particularly nasty, personal attack on somebody for something he or she has written. Periodically, an exchange of flames erupts into a flame war that begins to take up all the space in a given newsgroup (and sometimes several; flamers like cross-posting to let the world know how they feel). These can go on for weeks (sometimes they go on for years, in which case they become "holy wars," [-usually on such groundbreaking topics as the relative merits of Macintoshes vs. IBMs]. Often, just when they’re dying down, somebody new to the flame war reads all the messages, gets upset and issues an urgent plea that the flame war be taken to e-mail so everybody else can get back to whatever the … read more »

Response:

I can’t make it okay for you, I’m sorry.  The only thing that has upset me is the private post, can you understand?  I don’t know Peter, he may be a really great guy, but I won’t accept the fact that he posted me privately, unsolicited.  That’s my only point in all this. Hope you are ok. 14

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hopw we can stop now we like peter adn eveybody so make it ok ok?

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hopw we can stop now we like peter adn eveybody so make it ok ok?

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Question:

Tracey <rbranc…@mediaone.net> wrote in message

news:3A96A46C.45DF0E68@mediaone.net… > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it > >would cause marital problems. > If *both* are involved (and are devoted to it), it doesn’t seem > like it’s a cause of problems. > — > Tracey

My mistake…I suppose there could be occasions where this would not cause problems.  (shudders) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Indigo: What sailors do when they see a bar >                      —Funky Winkerbean—

Response:

Jadelee111512 <jadelee111…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010223130358.05491.00000364@ng-co1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >From: "B and B" > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > >> Just a fishing question here. > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > >> Kevin > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage. Amway > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > a relationship. > jadelee

Being a phone sex operator can grate on a marriage too.  And so can just about any occupation where a lot of travel is involved.

Response:

I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? momalot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jadelee111512 wrote: > >From: "B and B" > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > >> Just a fishing question here. > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > >> Kevin > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage.  Amway > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > a relationship. > jadelee

Response:

Tracey wrote: > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it > >would cause marital problems. > If *both* are involved (and are devoted to it), it doesn’t seem > like it’s a cause of problems.

That would be tres cool, if you think about it.  They could sell each other stuff ad nauseam and be filthy rich in no time, right? Ponzi 1, do you take Ponzi 2 to be your lawful wedded… Drew

Response:

> I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? > momalot

www.amway.com shepette  (who used to like momalot’s posts, too bad we’ve now lost her to the underworld of amway…)

Response:

Ahhh, I see what it is now. Thanks for the link, btw. In my area we have "Stanley" , I think it’s a lot like Amway. Not my cup a tea. momalot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Shepette wrote: > > I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? > > momalot > www.amway.com > shepette  (who used to like momalot’s posts, too bad we’ve now lost her to > the underworld of amway…)

Response:

ROFLOL ISIS "momalot" <dadalotmoma…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:3A96B436.6E33A6DB@hotmail.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? > momalot > Jadelee111512 wrote: > > >From: "B and B" > > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > > >becoming one. > > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > > >marital problems. > > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > > >> Just a fishing question here. > > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > > >> Kevin > > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage. Amway > > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > > a relationship. > > jadelee

Response:

Run fast and far. — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a fishing question here. > Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > Kevin

Response:

I agree with that, but Amway is in a class by itself. Amway’s just……… creepy — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "Jadelee111512" <jadelee111…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010223130358.05491.00000364@ng-co1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >From: "B and B" > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > >> Just a fishing question here. > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > >> Kevin > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage. Amway > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > a relationship. > jadelee

Response:

On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:11:14 -0500, "B and B" <baboonnliz…@prodigy.net> wrote: >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not >becoming one. >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause >marital problems.

Nitpick Dept:  Most Borg vessels are cubes, not spheres.

Response:

>From: "B and B" >Being a phone sex operator can grate on a marriage too.  And so can just >about any occupation where a lot of travel is involved.

Those are examples of a few.  Any high stress job has a potential to effect a marriage. Too many to name.  We are not well prepared to handle the stressors of jobs and marriage. jadelee

Response:

"B and B" wrote: >Being a phone sex operator can grate on a marriage too.  And so can just >about any occupation where a lot of travel is involved.

I could see how a lot of travel could grate on a marriage. Mom, for example, got more than just a bit fed up being home alone with the kids while dad was always out on the road selling insurance. He finally had to give it up, trading it in for teaching highschool and regular home hours. On the other hand, a tiny bit of work travel can be good for a marriage. For example, I’m happy for the time I have with my wife, but for the three or four times a year she’s off to trade shows, I enjoy that solitude time as well. As well, there have also been at least a few of her work trips where I’ve come along, we’ve extended our stay, and made a vacation of the situation more economically than if we had to pay the full shot for travel ourselves. So to my own family experiences at least, a lot of occupational travel can add to marital stress, where as a bit of occupational travel can actually be more beneficial to a marital relationship than none at all. CJ

Response:

Our relationshio has various small problems ie… insistence on using only Amway products (even if I don,t like that particular product) Granted Amway has some good products, But as any Company does they also have some bad ones or just plain some too expensive ones. I love my wife with all my heart, sometimes tho it seems that the Amway brainwashing borders on the ridiculous. By the way I am a former Amway brainwashee so I do know the other side and underrstand how they think. I was pretty disturbed by the way the marketing was carried out and the type of person I was turning out to be when I was involved. Thanks for all the response, keep it coming Kevin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– From: CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> Newsgroups: alt.support.marriage Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:36 AM Subject: Re: Amway > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked >  (and leave off the "potatoes" CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> wrote in message news:3aa09f57.22892148@news.nac.net… > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked >  (and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

I’ve always had the belief that Amway will ruin a relationship unless both partners are in it 100%. Let me guess – your wife makes next to nothing in real profit, but "will… someday" — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9frefdafcame5@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Our relationshio has various small problems ie… insistence on using only > Amway products (even if I don,t like that particular product) Granted Amway > has some good products, But as any Company does they also have some bad ones > or just plain some too expensive ones. I love my wife with all my heart, > sometimes tho it seems that the Amway brainwashing borders on the > ridiculous. By the way I am a former Amway brainwashee so I do know the > other side and underrstand how they think. I was pretty disturbed by the way > the marketing was carried out and the type of person I was turning out to be > when I was involved. > Thanks for all the response, keep it coming > Kevin > —– Original Message —– > From: CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> > Newsgroups: alt.support.marriage > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:36 AM > Subject: Re: Amway > > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > way > > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > >  (and leave off the "potatoes" > CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> wrote in message > news:3aa09f57.22892148@news.nac.net… > > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > way > > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > >  (and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

Hi Kevin, I’m not a distributor, but I do know a few.  A co-worker was married 16 years when "they" got started in "the business".  That was about 6 years ago.  Their divorce was final last summer.  W said he was never home and found someone to fill in the gap.  Another co-worker says it ruined her daughter’s first marriage for the same reason – one of the two of them was always chasing a sale or going off to one function or another.  Another couple  that I know make it work, but that’s because they literally do it side by side.  As I understand the way that it’s structured, it’s together….on NOT.  Figuratively and literally. I hope this is somewhat of an answer for you. — – First Light     @——-We are each of us angels with only one wing; and it’s when we embrace each other that we can fly.—-/—@ "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a fishing question here. > Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > Kevin

Response:

The company as a whole is successful. But the people in it, overwhelmingly, are not. They get you in for a year or two, the suckers buy *everything* they use/own through amway, then they realize they are making *zero* monry, and they drop out. They seem to recruit from the lower-middle / middle class mostly. The people easiest to sell "the good life" to, as those people will believe it. The poor usually won’t, and generally won’t have the ambition the follow through (and afford the initial "kit"). But the middle class will put the kit on the credit card, charge a few suits (for the weekly "pump me ups"), and generally feel proud for awhile that they have a "business". They get nice little business cards made, and listen to Zig-Zigler tell them how great life can be. Most of them are smiling on the outside and putting up a successful "front" (wearing clothing and taking trips they cannot afford, so they can "keep up"…. really. I had several friends in Amway. They would charge a new suit, and fly to Florida for a three hour meeting, and fly home the same day. stuff they could hardly afford to do – but Amway made them feel like they couldn’t afford NOT to – it’s a bizzare company). Anyway, I’ve rambled enough. I’ve seen this company close up, and see what it does to people. It’s sad. — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "IgOr" <ignora…@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message

news:slrn99h3mt.4j4.ignoramus@nospam.invalid… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > * Our relationshio has various small problems ie… insistence on using only > * Amway products (even if I don,t like that particular product) Granted Amway > * has some good products, But as any Company does they also have some bad ones > * or just plain some too expensive ones. I love my wife with all my heart, > * sometimes tho it seems that the Amway brainwashing borders on the > * ridiculous. By the way I am a former Amway brainwashee so I do know the > * other side and underrstand how they think. I was pretty disturbed by the way > * the marketing was carried out and the type of person I was turning out to be > * when I was involved. > That’s interesting. So, what kind of brainswashing do they do? What > kinds of people do they recruit? Why are they successful? > igor > * Thanks for all the response, keep it coming > * > * Kevin > * —– Original Message —– > * From: CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> > * Newsgroups: alt.support.marriage > * Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:36 AM > * Subject: Re: Amway > * > * > * > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > * > > * > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > * way > * > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > * > > * > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > * > > * > > * > > * >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > * >  (and leave off the "potatoes" > * CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> wrote in message > * news:3aa09f57.22892148@news.nac.net… > * > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > * > > * > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > * way > * > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > * > > * > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > * > > * > > * > > * >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > * >  (and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail) > * > * > — > Don’t sweat the petty things and don’t pet the sweaty things. – George

Carlin

Response:

As I’ve seen it described here and as I’ve seen it out here in RL, Amway is a religion of sorts.  It’s things like this that make me jest the concept of religion. ISIS "IgOr" <ignora…@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message

news:slrn99j39n.jm9.ignoramus@nospam.invalid… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dan Kegel <d…@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote: > * First Light wrote: > * > I’m not a distributor, but I do know a few.  A co-worker was married 16 > * > years when "they" got started in "the business".  That was about 6 years > * > ago.  Their divorce was final last summer.  W said he was never home and > * > found someone to fill in the gap.  Another co-worker says it ruined her > * > daughter’s first marriage for the same reason – one of the two of them was > * > always chasing a sale or going off to one function or another. Another > * > couple  that I know make it work, but that’s because they literally do it > * > side by side.  As I understand the way that it’s structured, it’s > * > together….[or] NOT.  Figuratively and literally. > * > * Yep.  Amway is a lot like a charismatic church… > * there are plenty of fine people in it, but they believe weird things > I have yet to see a "fine" person in MLM. Fine people tend to not like > lying constantly. > — > Don’t sweat the petty things and don’t pet the sweaty things. – George

Carlin

Response:

Larry Kessler <l_k_e_s_s_l_e_r@w_t_._n_e_t> wrote in message

news:4cee9tksrq1jrfqniogd52t0emakba5sn3@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:11:14 -0500, "B and B" > <baboonnliz…@prodigy.net> wrote: > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > Nitpick Dept:  Most Borg vessels are cubes, not spheres.

Depends on which star trek you are watching.

Response:

"John Kendricks" <jd…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:3a99948c.245820765@news.cis.dfn.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Everything you have said is true.  Amway (also now known as Quixtar) > preys on people who cannot afford the things or the lifestyle they > want, and brainwashes them to believe that if they will attend > frequent seminars, spend all their time listening to brainwashing > tapes, buy exclusively from amway or quixtar, and pester their > friends, relatives, coworkers, aquaintances,  people in malls, etc. > nonstop, they will become fabulously wealthy. > Here are some good amway-info links: > http://www.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/amway.html > http://skepdic.com/amway.html > http://www.apollowebworks.com/amway/ > http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/amway/amo_qmo.htm > If anyone reading this is planning on getting involved with amway or > quixtar, or is already involved with them, reading the above links > could be the single most important thing you ever do to save yourself > much suffering, misery and agony.

I’ve found that these people who are ‘Quixtar/Amway Critics’ have no credibility at all on the subject, they are usually the most screwed-up-broke-done-nothing-in-life people I’ve ever met. Why on earth would I want to fill my head with a bunch garbage from people who have no credibility in the area of success?  I seriously doubt that these people ‘got in’ then ‘quit’ (actually quit something they probably didn’t put hardly any effort toward) and then when on to be successfull fathers, husbands, entreprenuers, race car drivers or anything.  I bet the the only good things they end up being good at is: justification & rationalization of why they are where they are finanically, complaining, remote control operation and butt print formation (in couch cushions). I’ve seen all sorts of different levels of success in this business opportunity and I’ve seen it actually pull dozens (probably 100s) of marriages together, and these are indirect benefits from any kind of prosperity.  For postive results like these, it requires to a certain amount of effort just like any kind of  business opportunity, job, church, etc. and if a person is too busy (translates to lazy) to apply himself  and put forth effort than he is going to fail. This IS the best business opportunity I have ever seen it provides a level playing field for everyone.  It is structured to make money and the business plan works only if you work it.  Depending upon where you are personally, mentally and emotionally, you may need to learn and develop some personal and business skills that will enable you to build a successful business.  So in order to succeed learn how to learn from someone who has already done what you want to do.  The main goal of business is to make money and this opportunity is a great way to get the money obstacle hurdled in your life unlike most jobs out there.  Jobs are simply not structured to create any kind of wealth for the employee. It IS NOT a religion, if any body tries to enforce their beliefs on you concerning your faith in your creator, they are off base.  This applies to anywhere in life including your boss at your job. Good business is never built on deception and if someone is using any kind of deceptive tactics then you should address this issue directly don’t give up until you are satisfied.  I’ve found that the truly successfull people in this business are very direct, honest and trustworthy; the business is structured so that success is based upon success and it is in nobody’s interest to decieve anybody. If you’re checking out this business, remember to consider the credibility of the person who is providing the information. And make sure to check it out for yourself and don’t listen to broke people or negative attitudes. Good Luck to you in what ever you decide to do -but decide to do something!

Response:

First Light wrote: > I’m not a distributor, but I do know a few.  A co-worker was married 16 > years when "they" got started in "the business".  That was about 6 years > ago.  Their divorce was final last summer.  W said he was never home and > found someone to fill in the gap.  Another co-worker says it ruined her > daughter’s first marriage for the same reason – one of the two of them was > always chasing a sale or going off to one function or another.  Another > couple  that I know make it work, but that’s because they literally do it > side by side.  As I understand the way that it’s structured, it’s > together….[or] NOT.  Figuratively and literally.

Yep.  Amway is a lot like a charismatic church… there are plenty of fine people in it, but they believe weird things – Dan

Response:

Everything you have said is true.  Amway (also now known as Quixtar) preys on people who cannot afford the things or the lifestyle they want, and brainwashes them to believe that if they will attend frequent seminars, spend all their time listening to brainwashing tapes, buy exclusively from amway or quixtar, and pester their friends, relatives, coworkers, aquaintances,  people in malls, etc. nonstop, they will become fabulously wealthy. Here are some good amway-info links: http://www.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/amway.html http://skepdic.com/amway.html http://www.apollowebworks.com/amway/ http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/amway/amo_qmo.htm If anyone reading this is planning on getting involved with amway or quixtar, or is already involved with them, reading the above links could be the single most important thing you ever do to save yourself much suffering, misery and agony.

Response:

Just a fishing question here. Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? Kevin

Response:

Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! Stay away!  Stay away!!!! Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not becoming one. Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause marital problems. Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a fishing question here. > Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > Kevin

Response:

>of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it >would cause marital problems.

If *both* are involved (and are devoted to it), it doesn’t seem like it’s a cause of problems. — Tracey Indigo: What sailors do when they see a bar                      —Funky Winkerbean—

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->From: "B and B" >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not >becoming one. >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause >marital problems. >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… >> Just a fishing question here. >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? >> Kevin

At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage.  Amway is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within a relationship. jadelee

Response:

Question:

rw, It’s in the Indian Ocean, south of Indonesia. There are bones there too. It is an Australian Territory and has provided the only official fly caught bones in Australian waters. It is better known to us as a refugee landing point. Hundreds of Chinese, Indonesians, now Iranians have arrived there in the last few months. Cheer JK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But no, that wasn’t me. rw’s off to Easter Island at some point; Uh, I think you got the wrong holiday there Trip, it’s *Christmas* Island<g. One funny thing is that there are two Christmas Islands in the South Pacific, and both have fishing. The "wrong" Christmas Island has blue water big game fishing. (No bonefish.) I wonder whether some confused flyfisherman has ever shown up there with totally wrong tackle. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Mike: here’s the Alberta snow report: I drove through Calgary early this week. No snow to speak of. Absolutely none in Lethbridge where I live. Foescast calls for some flurries tonight, but a high of 8 C, so it won’t last long. No snow forecasted until Tuesday or Wednesday. Probably be another brown Xmas. Tim Lysyk

Well… Ok then… Maybe winters I remember. Heck last year in December I remeber we got some serious snow all around the region! I decide to stay here and it stay’s nice… What’s up with that? My parents are down in the Phillipines until January and I am having them scout some nice possiblities to fish while they travel around to golf… That’ll be a nice trip but one when my kids are much older. I can’t imgaine lugging all three girls around on an 18 hour plane trip! I am still thinking about Calgary in the Summer but I am not too sure. I’ll have to see how things go in the spring… That’d be nice though two weeks back home and as much fishing as I can squeeze in! — Michael Era

Question:

SSSHHHHHHH  Why tel anyone SSSSHHHHHHHHHHH. Nobody knows but us…

DSR is a big place on a bigger river.   I think our secret is safe. Apparently only about a hundred thousand guys know it, judging by last weekend’s crowd outside DSR. And don’t get me started on the cultural differences between the few fly fishers there and the lead-chucking majority. Joe F.

Response:

(photos to follow, including one in my roff shirt)

Okey dokey, if you’re interested, the photos are up at alt.binaries.pictures.fishing.   The subject headings are just variations of my screen name: rb608-1, rb608-2, and rb608-3.   The roff shirt is in -1, but it’s unfortunately less than obvious.   -3 is a big salmon with the rod, and -2 is the standard guy-with-a-fish photo. Joe F.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep

Question:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing.

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing.

Go fishing off the Sava bridhe idiot and uyou can learn how to fly!

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing.

Go fishing off the Sava bridge idiot and you can learn how to fly!

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing. ROTFL!  

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing.

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing.

Go fishing off the Sava bridhe idiot and uyou can learn how to fly!

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing.

Go fishing off the Sava bridge idiot and you can learn how to fly!

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing. ROTFL!  

Response:

Question:

I normally would not get involved in this type of discussion but I would like to add that Dan used the words "in his opinion" which he has a right to state.  There are many who have a different opinion.  Being curious I got out my Fly Casting With Lefty Kreh  and looked at the pictures of Lefty casting.  He is using a down locking reel seat and his hand is half way off the grip and against the reel.  Of course Lefty is definitely not an orthodox caster, but if it is good enough for him it is good enough for me. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Keep up the good work,  Thos. I second that. Tom Hackmann. I agree also. Jason Schwartz .Well, it’s agreed then. The "ayes" have it. Dan can stay. We’re such a congenial group aren’t we? Dennis Loveland, CO

Response:

OOOOOHHHHHHH!!!!!! Me 2 Dan! Larry #:)#

Response:

We’re such a congenial group aren’t we?

Well, no. But this sure is one heck of a love-fest you’re all having, ain’t it? ;^) /dave (hang in there Dan. this’ll all be over in another day or two)

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I am compelled to also respond….. Thanks for being part of this Group!!

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I must admit that I would have made some dumb (and expensive) equipment decisions without his advice!  I really appreciate it. Jay Kidwell, Ph.D. (Psychology) Instinctive Archery Insights http://w3.goodnews.net/~jkidwell/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<<: Well, no. But this sure is one heck of a love-fest you’re all having, ain’t : it? ;^) Maybe so… but I still hate that investigator guy. Dan is an Atlantic Salmon. The "investigator guy" is a sucker. Dave LaCourse

Response:

: We’re such a congenial group aren’t we? : Well, no. But this sure is one heck of a love-fest you’re all having, ain’t : it? ;^) Maybe so… but I still hate that investigator guy. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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<<: Well, no. But this sure is one heck of a love-fest you’re all having, ain’t : it? ;^) Maybe so… but I still hate that investigator guy. Dan is an Atlantic Salmon. The "investigator guy" is a sucker. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Hi all, I’m moving to Vermont and have to pack up my computer today.  I will be offline until the first week of August.  So, if you send me e-mail or ask questions of me and I don’t answer, I’m not ignoring you, I’m just "in transit".  Talk to you again when I get there.                         Good fishing,                               Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi all, I’m moving to Vermont and have to pack up my computer today.  I will be offline until the first week of August.  So, if you send me e-mail or ask questions of me and I don’t answer, I’m not ignoring you, I’m just "in transit".  Talk to you again when I get there.                        Good fishing,                              Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

No, no! don’t go off line Dan… who can we all adore now? Seriously, good luck with the move, hope it goes smoothly.   Hurry back. — Stuart Nuttall (Replace ‘nospam’ with ‘warboyz’ to reply by e-mail)

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<<No, no! don’t go off line Dan… who can we all adore now? There’s always George. d;0)

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I am compelled to also respond….. Thanks for being part of this Group!!

        yep, i’ll have to say that every newsgroup needs at least one d. gracia, or a bill kleine, to balance the relentless efforts of louts like chaz and me.         a. wayne harrison

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   yep, i’ll have to say that every newsgroup needs at least one d. gracia, or a bill kleine, to balance the relentless efforts of louts like chaz and me.

…and let’s not forget Timbo! As if we could :^) Dennis Loveland, CO

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What a sappy freekin’ thread…jeezus…virtual male bonding for christ’s sake… Have a good move Dan-o…. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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      yep, i’ll have to say that every newsgroup needs at least one d. gracia, or a bill kleine, to balance the relentless efforts of louts like chaz and me.       a. wayne harrison

Well said Wayne, a very gracious comment, don’t forget Mr. Walker – he who calls the NG to heel over important conservation matters. — Bill

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Some posters have been complaining that you contribute nothing but thinly veiled spam to this group.  I vehemently disagree.  I find your advice is sound and apropos.  I believe that most roffers understand that you (like everyone else) have a particular perspective and even a few biases.  I also believe that most roffers admire the balance you bring to your posts; you do not insist that the universe revolves around Mt. Shasta, and you are quick to admit the virtues of non Orvis equipment. Keep up the good work, Thos.

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Some posters have been complaining that you contribute nothing but thinly veiled spam to this group.  I vehemently disagree.  I find your advice is sound and apropos.  I believe that most roffers understand that you (like everyone else) have a particular perspective and even a few biases.  I also believe that most roffers admire the balance you bring to your posts; you do not insist that the universe revolves around Mt. Shasta, and you are quick to admit the virtues of non Orvis equipment. Keep up the good work, Thos.

I second that. Tom Hackmann.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some posters have been complaining that you contribute nothing but thinly veiled spam to this group.  I vehemently disagree.  I find your advice is sound and apropos.  I believe that most roffers understand that you (like everyone else) have a particular perspective and even a few biases.  I also believe that most roffers admire the balance you bring to your posts; you do not insist that the universe revolves around Mt. Shasta, and you are quick to admit the virtues of non Orvis equipment. Keep up the good work, Thos. I second that. Tom Hackmann.

I agree also. Jason Schwartz

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Keep up the good work,  Thos. I second that. Tom Hackmann. I agree also. Jason Schwartz .Well, it’s agreed then. The "ayes" have it. Dan can stay.

We’re such a congenial group aren’t we? Dennis Loveland, CO

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Dan makes every effort to avoid spamming. He consistently gives sensible advice in response to not-so-sensible questions. -Doug Easton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some posters have been complaining that you contribute nothing but thinly veiled spam to this group.  I vehemently disagree.  I find your advice is sound and apropos.  I believe that most roffers understand that you (like everyone else) have a particular perspective and even a few biases.  I also believe that most roffers admire the balance you bring to your posts; you do not insist that the universe revolves around Mt. Shasta, and you are quick to admit the virtues of non Orvis equipment. Keep up the good work, Thos. I second that. Tom Hackmann.

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Question:

I must have missed the post describing how to vote.  This is not hard to do in an area as cluttered as this one. I want to vote YES.  How do I do it? Thanks, Jack Jack from Taxacola (formerly Pensacola), Florida

Jack: Like you, I missed the first CFV. The new (and final) CFV was posted one or two days ago (it is now 2-12). Just find & read it, and it will tell you how to cast your ballot. I did just that when I first found it. If you vote, then your vote will cancel mine. Fair is fair. Actually, that depends on your definition of the word "fair". Because it takes a 2/3 vote to create the new group, your vote counts half as much as mine. Regards (and good gardening); Bill — Center for Room Temperature Confusion

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I must have missed the post describing how to vote.  This is not hard to do in an area as cluttered as this one. I want to vote YES.  How do I do it? Thanks, Jack Jack from Taxacola (formerly Pensacola), Florida I vote YES on rec.gardens.edible

While I think this was done in innocence, let me please remind everyone that voting should be done from the original CFV ballot, not by writing a line someone tells you to. You can find a CFV in DejaNews, or request one by email from the votetaker. Ginger

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I am grabbing this message as an example.  Ginger is entirely correct in her message.  THE ONLY WAY TO VOTE IS TO REPLY TO THE CFV.  I am not trying to yell, but I want that line to grab your attention if nothing else does. The voting on CFV rec.gardens.edible has indeed started.  You should see or have seen a message entitled CFV: rec.gardens.edible (Jani Patokallio) This is the OFFICIAL call for votes message.  If you missed it, it will appear again as 2nd CFV:rec.gardens.edible (Jani Patokallio) sometime soon.  You should only reply once (unless you change your mind) to EITHER message.  You don’t need to vote twice.   Read the CFV or 2nd CFV very closely.  It details how to vote. You should not vote by "just sending email to Jani with I vote __" because someone tells you it is the right way.  Your vote MAY not be counted. (Example: Calling the election committee to vote for Bob Dole) You should not vote by replying to a CFV that was emailed to you by a friend.  This could also cause your vote to be disallowed.   (Example: filling out Bob Dole on the ballot Newt sent you, even if it is word for word the same) You should not vote by replying to any other message besides the OFFICIAL CFV.  If you replied to one of the above threads(Vote Yes or Vote No) with a "me too" and THOUGHT you were voting, you were not. (Example: Calling Newt and telling him Dole has your vote) Your vote is important to the future of rec.gardens.edible irrespective of which way you vote.  I would prefer that you make your vote count.  That way we get a true representation of the internet gardening community. (Example: You driving your own car to your local elementary school and pulling a lever) Again, if you have any questions, please respond via post to this message.  No email to me please. Scott proponent rec.gardens.edible

I must have missed the post describing how to vote.  This is not hard to do in an area as cluttered as this one. I want to vote YES.  How do I do it? Thanks, Jack Jack from Taxacola (formerly Pensacola), Florida I vote YES on rec.gardens.edible While I think this was done in innocence, let me please remind everyone that voting should be done from the original CFV ballot, not by writing a line someone tells you to. You can find a CFV in DejaNews, or request one by email from the votetaker. Ginger                  Scott D. Jung http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/2392 http://www.netcom.com/~jung Remove the FIX-ME to send email.

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I must have missed the post describing how to vote.  This is not hard to do in an area as cluttered as this one. I want to vote YES.  How do I do it? Thanks, Jack Jack from Taxacola (formerly Pensacola), Florida

I vote YES on rec.gardens.edible

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I must have missed the post describing how to vote.  This is not hard to do in an area as cluttered as this one. I want to vote YES.  How do I do it? Thanks, Jack Jack from Taxacola (formerly Pensacola), Florida

   There was an RFV (Request for Vote) with a detailed proposal posted on Jan 31 to all of the garden related newsgroups.  It was the first call for votes and will be officially posted again before the voting is closed. You might be able to find it by looking in a group with less traffic (It’s still on my server in triangle.gardens for example) and setting the entire set of messages to unread.    I’m not sure if reposting it is acceptable, but I’ll ask one of the originators if they will do it again since it seems to have been widely missed.  I only saw it on triangle.gardens. — Lloyd Fortney http://www.phy.duke.edu/~fortney/ has links to my garden, flower, flyfishing, and travel JPEG images as well as teaching, research, and stuff like that

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I must have missed the post describing how to vote.  This is not hard to do in an area as cluttered as this one. I want to vote YES.  How do I do it?

The CFV would also be available in news.announce.newgroups.  It will also be posted once more before the end of the voting period. Note that because of fraudulent campaigning on other votes in the past by some individuals, providing someone with instructions on how to vote with anything other than the full, uneditted CFV is considered a big no-no.  If someone out there still has the CFV on their machine, reposting it is okay, but just posting the bare instructions is not. — Mary Conner

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I must have missed the post describing how to vote.  This is not hard to do in an area as cluttered as this one. I want to vote YES.  How do I do it? Thanks, Jack Jack from Taxacola (formerly Pensacola), Florida

Response:

Question:

Have fished it many times–was a deadbeat unemployed fella last year and I actually fished it 90 days. Don’t know where you live but before you go make sure you have the water release schedule halfway figured out so as not to ruin your day. Call ahead to the Ozark Angler in Heber Springs. Tell Jeff Hawthorne to tie you up some Red Diablos–the deadliest LRR fly.

Hi How about sharing the fly pattern receipe for the Red Diablo with us.   Thanks. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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- Hello All. I am looking for some info about the Little Red River Where to stay best spots to fish pretty much anything those you who have been there might be able to fill me in on. Thanks in advance Tight Lines Scott

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Have fished it many times–was a deadbeat unemployed fella last year and I actually fished it 90 days. Don’t know where you live but before you go make sure you have the water release schedule halfway figured out so as not to ruin your day. Call ahead to the Ozark Angler in Heber Springs. Tell Jeff Hawthorne to tie you up some Red Diablos–the deadliest LRR fly.

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Question:

RE: Attractor patterns. We here in the east fish such great waters as the east branch of the croton river ( New York Suburbs) and the west branch of the delaware ( pennsylvania). These waters are so heavily fished that the trout usually will ignore everything you can throw at them that matches the hatch. When we see this happening, we usually tie on something like a parmachene belle, which is a gaudy silver, blue and red. Ive seen alot of wary rainbows fall for it when nothing else produces. Neil Ferri – New York — Neil Ferri New York

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello from Iowa-        Has anyone had experience, successful I may add, with attractor patterns such as Humpies, Trudes, any of the Wulffs, Woolly Buggers, Hare’s Ears, and the like, on trout found in such heavily hit waters as the Madison and especially the Henrys’ Fork of the Snake.  I’ve had limited success with ants and Royal Wulff’s (impressionistic of beetles I presume) on the Last Chance run on the Henrys’ and regular success with Montana Stones and the ubiquitous Elk Hair Caddis on the Madison.  Does this mirror others’ experiences on these waters or other waters of similar nature?  Are these trout truly as demanding as the mag writers make them out to be (spring creek trout notwithstanding)?        Second, it seems that while attractor patterns, especially dries and the Woolly Bugger, were in vogue several years ago (probably before my start), they have lost favor again to the small and prescise school of flies. Is this true and are my wishes to fish them going against some yuppy’s notion of true dry fly fishing?  I do love the take on an attractor pattern.                                                Tight Lines,                                                Ryan Maas P.S. Anyone passing through the Des Moines, Ames area in late spring…and willing to stoop to tackling bass? — Ryan Maas

I would agree that the Madison requires hatch matching more than any stream I know.  However, I have had luck on both the South Fork of the Snake and the Yellowstone River using a Royal Wulff during prehatch, and on days when nothing else seemed to work.  I love the Royal Wulff, and find that it is just what Lee Wulff said it was, a trout’s strawberry shortcake.  As far as other attactors, the South Fork had a spell (three or four years ago) when Double Renegades and variations on the Double R worked wonders during June. Several years ago, a video on the South Fork showed anglers slaying cuts on trudes.  I have never tried one there.  Hare’s ears work well on all of these waters, especially during the spring, and mostly for white fish.  But heh, when the trout wont hit, tight lines are tight lines. Finally, I know that creeks and smaller streams are not what you’re talking about, but attactors work incredibly well on the smaller streams, and if anyone sticks up his or her nose at your throwing a Royal Wulff on a famous river, just smile to yourself when that big brown slams it like there’s no tomorrow. GOOD LUCK!!

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Hello from Iowa-         Has anyone had experience, successful I may add, with attractor patterns such as Humpies, Trudes, any of the Wulffs, Woolly Buggers, Hare’s Ears, and the like, on trout found in such heavily hit waters as the Madison and especially the Henrys’ Fork of the Snake.  I’ve had limited success with ants and Royal Wulff’s (impressionistic of beetles I presume) on the Last Chance run on the Henrys’ and regular success with Montana Stones and the ubiquitous Elk Hair Caddis on the Madison.  Does this mirror others’ experiences on these waters or other waters of similar nature?  Are these trout truly as demanding as the mag writers make them out to be (spring creek trout notwithstanding)?         Second, it seems that while attractor patterns, especially dries and the Woolly Bugger, were in vogue several years ago (probably before my start), they have lost favor again to the small and prescise school of flies. Is this true and are my wishes to fish them going against some yuppy’s notion of true dry fly fishing?  I do love the take on an attractor pattern.                                                 Tight Lines,                                                 Ryan Maas P.S. Anyone passing through the Des Moines, Ames area in late spring…and willing to stoop to tackling bass? — Ryan Maas

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Sheeeoot yeah, attractors work on the rivers you mention.  Wulffs and trudes work great on the Madison, esp. in thhhe area between Hebgen and Quake Lakes (in my experience).  As a guide, working in and around Yellowstone Park, I use all those flies regularly. The hugest fish I hooked (and lost) last summer was on Nelson’s Spring Creek, and I hooked it on a (GASP!) Wooly Bugger dead-drifted past some weeds.  One day on the Lamar, my client caught 24 cutts on Grey and Royal Wulffs. . .in 2 hours. So don’t let any Nancy-Boy purists put down attractors.  While it’s true that hatch-matching works best when there is a hatch going on (f’rinstance, during the PMD hatches on the Lamar, no self-respecting cutt would look at a Wulff), there have been many times where some- thing big and ugly has turned a crappy day into something good. I’d rather fish a dry fly any day of the week, and I’ll often fish dry when others have given up.  However, when all else fails, buggerize them. Phil

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The three you inquire about are on my short list. The Royal Trude is perhaps my favorite dry fly,

I agree 100%, it is my #1 producer especially during caddis hatches!!! It’s only drawback is that it gets destroyed pretty easily after a few bruisers get their teeth into it.  Tie ‘em from #12 to #18.   Happy Trails,                                                Steve Jackson

                                         Quint McDonald                                          Hewlett Packard                                          Corvallis Oregon

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello from Iowa-         Has anyone had experience, successful I may add, with attractor patterns such as Humpies, Trudes, any of the Wulffs, Woolly Buggers, Hare’s Ears, and the like, on trout found in such heavily hit waters as the Madison and especially the Henrys’ Fork of the Snake.  I’ve had limited success with ants and Royal Wulff’s (impressionistic of beetles I presume) on the Last Chance run on the Henrys’ and regular success with Montana Stones and the ubiquitous Elk Hair Caddis on the Madison.  Does this mirror others’ experiences on these waters or other waters of similar nature?  Are these trout truly as demanding as the mag writers make them out to be (spring creek trout notwithstanding)?         Second, it seems that while attractor patterns, especially dries and the Woolly Bugger, were in vogue several years ago (probably before my start), they have lost favor again to the small and prescise school of flies. Is this true and are my wishes to fish them going against some yuppy’s notion of true dry fly fishing?  I do love the take on an attractor pattern.                                                 Tight Lines,                                                 Ryan Maas

Can’t speak for the Henrys’ Fork of the Snake, but trudes, humpies and wooly buggers are as productive and popular as ever here in Montana. Royal Trudes, yellow or red Humpies, and black, brown, or olive Wooly Buggers are on my don’t leave home without list.  These patterns work for most of the summer season but the attractors are especially effective during the hopper season from the end of July through August. Wooly Buggers are best fished as streamers (of-course) and early spring is best for rainbow and fall is best for browns. I fish the Madison, Yellowstone, and Gallatin most of the year (yes, even winter) and have come to count on a short list of proven patterns. The three you inquire about are on my short list. The Royal Trude is perhaps my favorite dry fly, right up there with a modified Adams that I tie with a bright shiny blue body. As for the trout IQ level of the big three streams above…  Depends on who you talk to. Certain areas of each river get alot of fishing pressure and there are days when nothing much is happening.  It is doublely satisfying when I can rise to the challenge and land a beautiful 17" brown from beneath a bridge that gets a daily mix of dogs, kids, winch and cable fishermen, and rafters.                                                 Happy Trails,                                                 Steve Jackson

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