Question:

Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies.

More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Dave

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More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived.

Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.

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My father brought home a 23 pound Pike from Minnesota years ago that had a huge scar on both sides of it’s body that was the result of a considerably larger Pike getting a death grip on her.  The wound was mostly healed, and the fish put up a great fight, so it clearly wasn’t weakened.   Some have said that the bleeding won’t stop.  That is simply wrong.   Some have said that if the gills are cut, then the bleeding won’t stop.  That may be true in some circumstances, but certainly not in all circumstances. Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table? My experience matches Peter’s with juveniles being more delicate, and with larger fish surviving tremendous injuries. Last year at Great Slave Lake my son Andy caught a blind pike.  The fishes eyes were entirely gone, but it managed to find his fly and put up a presentable fight.  It was only 6 or 7 pounds, and uninjured by the fly so we released it.  We couldn’t guess how it lost it’s sight. Frank Ammoto(sp?) wrote an article about steelhead fishing in BC long ago where he caught a steelhead that didn’t put up the usual fight.   When he landed it he discovered that literally half of it’s head had been bitten off by a seal.  This fish was 100 miles upstream from the nearest seal. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.

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Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table?

I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer.  I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river.  It did die though.  There was no mistaking it.  No big deal really.  I am sure some other critter was able to enjoy a nice fish. Unlike "some" people, I am not tormented by this. I wonder if water temps, time of year, etc make much of a difference. Perhaps in colder waters, their metabolism is moving slower and the bleeding eventually stops compared to warm water, faster metabolism, etc. I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all.  Think about it.  When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it?  I don’t draw blood when I lop off the fins of some perch and don’t strike blood until I lop off their heads or when I open them up to gut.  Just a few thoughts and not scientific answers. . . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?

That’s supposed to be a joke?? You remain one sick fuckin’ puppy.

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Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it.

Tim, This came up recently either on ROFF or ROFS. If ROFF sorry for the repeat of the site. http://www.leadertec.com/Catch_release.html Kiyu

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Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it.  You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott?

Well, as an erstwhile medical practitioner, I usually call it icky goo. When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?

Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why so many people would rather consort with fish slime than with you? Still not Pete

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Sure, they do die, I’ve seen that often too. I bet the water temperature has a lot to do with it.  Dry Falls Lake is a selective fishery in Eastern Washington that has a nice collection of 14 to 24 inch rainbows and a few nice browns.  One year it was warmer than usual around opening day, and I could see twenty or thirty dead fish on the second day of the season while the morning of the first day there were none.  I was sure these were fish that had been injured when they were hooked and released.  Other years there were no dead fish on the second or third day.  I’m sure it wasn’t any difference in the anglers or the education or the fish.  It had to be environmental. Today I was fishing for Silvers on the Cascade river and snagged a hard fighting 7 pounder.  All the skin and flesh was gone from the top of his head, right down to the bone.  That’s an area of about four square inches.  He put up quite a fight, and I released him unharmed.  The wound was red around the edges, and the rest was clean white bone.  The only likely perpetrator was a seal, and that had to have happened thirty miles down stream at the mouth of the Skagit.   All this is cold clean water, I’m sure that helped. As for that horible feeling that the fish has died, I don’t get that either.  It is wonderful to see all these dead pink salmon providing the nutrients our rivers have been starving for over the last several years. Chas Still thinking about carpooling to the Pike clave… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer.  I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river.  It did die though.   … snip . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone.  My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible. Why do I care about the slime on a fish I’m keeping?  (That’s an honest question, not a sarcastic comment)  I’ve noticed that fish I’ve gutted in the field and packed on ice seem to build up a heave slime layer by the time I get them home.  I wonder if the "slime glands" are like our hair folicles and keep functioning after the body has died. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone.  My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible.

just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do.  and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris

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I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all.  Think about it.  When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it?

Not much.  Maybe that’s the answer.  Fish just don’t have that much blood. Other than a major artery or the gills, they just don’t bleed much.  When you do cut the gills, they can lose such a high percentage of their blood so quickly (relatively speaking) that it’s sometimes fatal.  Maybe it’s not a blood clot issue at all.

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More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t.  Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds.  Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens?

Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.

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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.

Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution.  The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you see? George Gehrke

  george.vcf

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The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t

necessary, don’t you see? I see the beauty of releasing bleeders in to an 11 inch cold handle cauterizer… — TBone

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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period. Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution.  The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you

see? Catercizes.  Yes, I think I see now.

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I suspect you’re right.  I think the main reason I keep them on a stringer is that I like to get them on ice as soon after they die as possible.  If I’m going to keep fishing, I’d rather keep the fish fresh by keeping it alive.  I know that’s not what I said before, but in that context I thought the delay might have some value. Thanks Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do.  and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris

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The best way to preserve ‘the slime layer’ is to never touch a fish with dry hands nor do you let it flop on dry ground. Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it.  You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott? When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

  george.vcf

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In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health.

Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it. — TBone

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Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence eithe

I’ve seen many trout that have had huge scars and chunks of flesh missing that have survived quite well, but *every* trout or salmon that I’ve seen bleeding from the gills has died within minutes, often within seconds. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding.

IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

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Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Dave

More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t.  Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds.  Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens? TC, R

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In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke

  george.vcf

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I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound.  All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal.  On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding.   The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom.  They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding.  As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a multi-part message in MIME format. In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke [ george.vcf ] (Attachment)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound.  All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal.  On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding.   The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom.  They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding.  As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas

Chas, I don’t have the range of encounters that you have mentioned but I can talk about a few instances.  We are taught that fish have no platelets and all bleeding inevitably leads to death.  I have hooked deeply small trout on C&R or slot limit streams that I was required by law to release and I have watched these bleeding fish die.  Yet I have also hooked a landlock salmon under the jaw, caused a very nasty, distinctive wound, had it bleed, released it (as required by law) and caught it the very next day on the same fly.   I have also caught smallmouth with fresh, bleeding mouth wounds opposite to the site of the hook puncture, that I had obviously caused having hooked and lost the same fish some time earlier (I was the only fisherman there.) These experiences have suggested to me that fish with major bleeding will die but a minor bleed is not necessarily fatal.  I also agree that pike with minor bleeding wounds will usually survive.  In my experience, most pike that are brought into a boat are returned to the water with at least some bleeding.  They thrash so much that even with experienced handling, it’s hard to keep them from banging into something that will cut them.  If mortality from these casual bleeds was 100%, C&R mortality for pike would be probably in excess of 50%. Nobody talks about pike as being endangered. So obviously, C&R mortality has to be running a lot lower (as suggested by virtually all studies – however flawed.)   Therefore, bleeding is not necessarily fatal – hardly scientific but definitely within the experience of this fisherman.  I have also caught steelhead with a fungus growth covering wounds inflicted during the migration, from nest building, and from fighting.  If steelhead died from the first bleeding wound, there wouldn’t be very many steelhead around. It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

I believe that extinction is good in some cases of animal life.  The "Muslim Fundamentalist Terrorist" comes to mind.  I think I will dream of "smoking holes" in Afghanistan tonight.

Bear in mind, David, that the Taliban’s conquered victims are trapped in Afghanistan and imprisoned by the civil war and terrorism in their own villages.  Take care not to paint all Arabs or Muslims with the same brush. Most of them are decent people and are undoubtedly horrified by what’s taken place today.  This evil act flies in the face of Islam’s tenets. My great fear right now is that Arab Americans will be victimized as Japanese Americans were during World War II. Sandy

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. My great fear right now is that Arab Americans will be victimized as Japanese Americans were during World War II. Sandy

A legitimate concern but the analogy is wrong. No offense taken. john

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My great fear right now is that Arab Americans will be victimized as Japanese Americans were during World War II. Sandy A legitimate concern but the analogy is wrong. No offense taken. john

In what way, John?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Exactly what the fuck are you saying? Dave Astounding pictures on the TV of the twin towers, to any of the fishing fraternity caught up or affected comiserations from this side of the pond .Terrible it looks like warfare. The best of luck to the fire fighters . John I have no right or mandate to speak on behalf of anyone else here in the U.K. but I am sure that many of us feel for our American cousins at this time.  Remember, we have felt the bombs, the killing and maiming many times in these islands. Even to those of you who have supported our terrorists – God bless you. Jeff

It would appear, David, that the words "…many of us feel for our American cousins at this time.", are an expression of sympathy.  "Remember, we have felt the bombs, the killing and maiming many times in these islands.", suggests a basis beyond a shared humanity for that sympathy.  "Even to those of you who have supported our terrorists – God bless you.", is, presumably, a reminder that Jeff (along with many others) feels his country is also a victim of terrorists (the Provisional IRA, I assume).  He is also reminding us that many in the U.S. support the activities of that group. The situation in northern ireland is complex enough that there is a great deal of controversy over whether the IRA should be viewed as terrorists or freedom fighters.  I won’t presume to pretend that I can offer a valuable opinion on this matter, but it occurs to me that under the circumstances even our resident idologue could take the stick out of his ass long enough to sit down and reflect. Wolfgang and god bless even you, i guess

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Your comments are inflammatory, and in extremely poor taste…..

Personally, I find them to be neither.  Beyond that, I can’t disagree with anything else you say in your post, which I have snipped to conserve bandwidth. And thank you. Wolfgang

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I believe that extinction is good in some cases of animal life.  The "Muslim Fundamentalist Terrorist" comes to mind.  I think I will dream of "smoking holes" in Afghanistan tonight. Big Chief

It’s too soon to jump to that conclusion. If it turns out, in the fullness of time, that Bin Laden is behind this, then (in the words of a State Dept. official) don’t plan your next vacation in Afghanistan. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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My thoughts are with the US today. Have strength through your grief and courage and honor in your justice. Clark

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I believe that extinction is good in some cases of animal life.  The "Muslim Fundamentalist Terrorist" comes to mind.  I think I will dream of "smoking holes" in Afghanistan tonight. Big Chief – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Astounding pictures on the TV of the twin towers, to any of the fishing fraternity caught up or affected comiserations from this side of the pond .Terrible it looks like warfare. The best of luck to the fire fighters . John

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I think of the lyrics of Bob Dylan. A hard rain’s a’gonna fall. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Astounding pictures on the TV of the twin towers, to any of the fishing fraternity caught up or affected comiserations from this side of the pond .Terrible it looks like warfare. The best of luck to the fire fighters . John

Just spoke to the Pirate at Lakewood – the clave continues.  To do otherwise would be to let the bastards win.  We’re leaving tomorrow morning for Lakewood at 4 am. God bless America Peter

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 I have no right or mandate to speak on behalf of anyone else here in the U.K. but I am sure that many of us feel for our American cousins at this time.  Remember, we have felt the bombs, the killing and maiming many times in these islands. Even to those of you who have supported our terrorists – God bless you. Jeff

Your comments are inflammatory, and in extremely poor taste. It is to be hoped that the animals responsible for this outrage against humanity will be rooted out and destroyed. The sooner the better.  This is purely a matter of self defence. They could strike anywhere. This must be done with care and precision, and as much effort as it takes to achieve.  Ill-considered reactions, are best avoided. Human beings who perpetrate such acts, have relinquished their right to be considered even human, or be treated as such.. A tragedy of this magnitude requires the solidarity of decent people with the victims, as indeed any tragedy does. It is a terrifying lesson to everybody what fanatics may achieve, and where hate and fanaticism leads. The loss of one single life to these animals is a matter of concern to every living person.  Cold blooded and calculated mass murder on this scale is a new dimension of terror. This is not simply a strike against America, but against civilisation. America requires our support, not condemnation, or snide remarks, at this time. MC

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Early reports of AAA and ground explosions in Afganistan. Dave

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Exactly what the fuck are you saying?

I believe he refers to US (popular) support for the Provisional IRA. — Gary (Email address is munged with x’s)

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Exactly what the fuck are you saying? Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Astounding pictures on the TV of the twin towers, to any of the fishing fraternity caught up or affected comiserations from this side of the pond .Terrible it looks like warfare. The best of luck to the fire fighters . John I have no right or mandate to speak on behalf of anyone else here in the U.K. but I am sure that many of us feel for our American cousins at this time.  Remember, we have felt the bombs, the killing and maiming many times in these islands. Even to those of you who have supported our terrorists – God bless you. Jeff

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Astounding pictures on the TV of the twin towers, to any of the fishing fraternity caught up or affected comiserations from this side of the pond .Terrible it looks like warfare. The best of luck to the fire fighters . John

 I have no right or mandate to speak on behalf of anyone else here in the U.K. but I am sure that many of us feel for our American cousins at this time.  Remember, we have felt the bombs, the killing and maiming many times in these islands. Even to those of you who have supported our terrorists – God bless you. Jeff

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Welcome to the 21st Century.  ;-(      - Ken

Driving to Logan this morning I cursed the heavy traffic. Took every back road I knew and in the end gave up and got on the Pike. I realized that after 2hrs for trying to make the 40 mile trip that I was not going to make my flight to NYC. I cursed the world, the overpopulation, lack of public transport, Fastlane, wasting gasoline and, oh, who knows what else. I rebooked myself on the 9.30am Delta shuttle to NYC , which was cancelled about 9:05am with an ominous announcement. I had 3 meetings in and around the WTC. How the minor gripes and annoyances distort our perspective. Superimposed, as it was for me, against what happened, that flight 11 passed overhead as I drove to the airport, that I drove and walked the same path of terrorists and victims alike, I am thankful to God, or Bog, or I Ching or luck to be alive. My prayers and thoughts to the undoubted thousands who are dead. — Gary (Email address is munged with x’s)

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Thank you Sandy.  Any support is appreciated.  Give us Americans time.  We will deal with it. All’s Fair With Fur or Feather gg

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Astounding pictures on the TV of the twin towers, to any of the fishing fraternity caught up or affected comiserations from this side of the pond .Terrible it looks like warfare. The best of luck to the fire fighters . John

Astonishing news. Do the lunatic extremists who did this really expect sympathy? I add my best wishes to the USA, a great country which will surely bounce back. Chris

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Astounding pictures on the TV of the twin towers, to any of the fishing fraternity caught up or affected comiserations from this side of the pond ..Terrible it looks like warfare. The best of luck to the fire fighters . John

I second that  and I hope I never see anything like it again. My family and I send our heartfelt sympathies to everybody who has lost friends or relations. My usual sig. just doesn’t seem appropriate for this post. Sandy (in Scotland)

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Astounding pictures on the TV of the twin towers, to any of the fishing fraternity caught up or affected comiserations from this side of the pond .Terrible it looks like warfare.   It is.

Welcome to the 21st Century.  ;-(      - Ken — "Mere human beings can’t afford to be fanatical about anything. Not even  about justice or loyalty. The fanatic for justice ends by murdering a  million helpless people to clear a space for his law-courts. If we are to  survive on this planet, there must be compromises."         – Storm Jameson

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I say that we take out any group stupid enough to take credit for it…. Dustin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Astounding pictures on the TV of the twin towers, to any of the fishing fraternity caught up or affected comiserations from this side of the pond .Terrible it looks like warfare. The best of luck to the fire fighters . John No one anywhere in the world escapes the horrible effects of terrorism. This is especially sickening — I’m watching the news right now. This, clearly, is an act of war, as the Pentagon has been hit, and many more will become involved before it’s over. Thanks for your thoughtful post, John. I’ll add my prayers for the victims, their friends and families, and emergency workers. Sandy

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Astounding pictures on the TV of the twin towers, to any of the fishing fraternity caught up or affected comiserations from this side of the pond .Terrible it looks like warfare. The best of luck to the fire fighters . John

Response:

Astounding pictures on the TV of the twin towers, to any of the fishing fraternity caught up or affected comiserations from this side of the pond .Terrible it looks like warfare.

  It is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The best of luck to the fire fighters . John

Response:

yea….amazing what some folks will do to bring attention to their "causes".. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Astounding pictures on the TV of the twin towers, to any of the fishing fraternity caught up or affected comiserations from this side of the pond .Terrible it looks like warfare. The best of luck to the fire fighters . John

Response:

Astounding pictures on the TV of the twin towers, to any of the fishing fraternity caught up or affected comiserations from this side of the pond .Terrible it looks like warfare. The best of luck to the fire fighters . John

No one anywhere in the world escapes the horrible effects of terrorism. This is especially sickening — I’m watching the news right now. This, clearly, is an act of war, as the Pentagon has been hit, and many more will become involved before it’s over. Thanks for your thoughtful post, John. I’ll add my prayers for the victims, their friends and families, and emergency workers. Sandy

Response:

Question:

Made in Duntons shop in Mass.  Before haveing his own shop Dunton was at Montague(just before WWII). They were sold under his own label and under the name of a fly shop in Manhattan(Bob Zwirz?) They were rather low end rods, drawn ferrules as an example, rather than machined. They were supposed to be rather fast with firm butts and quick tips but the ones I have seen(3 or 4) and cast seemed a bit wimpy and light in the tip.  Dunton sold his shop and machinery to Tom Dorsey and Tom Maxwell and it became Thomas and Thomas.  They went on to produce a line of superb high quality rods.  You see Dunton rods on the used lists from time to time and they don’t command much of a price.  IMHO they have some minor historical value but not much to recommend them as a fishing tool. Hi, I am interested in Sewell Dunton bambo rod. Anyone knows the magazie article or something written about it? Thanks in advance. Mikio Sugiyama

– Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                          Tom McGuane

Response:

Hi, I am interested in Sewell Dunton bambo rod. Anyone knows the magazie article or something written about it? Thanks in advance. Mikio Sugiyama

Response:

Question:

In one case a guy went after people in another nearby tent with a chain saw.

Great Caesar’s Ghost!  What happened?  Was the chain saw running?  If it was, he certainly wasn’t trying to be sneaky.    Robert

Response:

goodnight Tokyo Rose: The dolly llama has been shorn. I hear they make great sweaters and the meat aint all that bad too eat either. just remember life is only as big as your wardrobe:)

Response:

Sorry about the misfortune, but as someone stated – it is relatively uncommon. I remember being robbed in the Dublin Youth Hostel. It was a six-bed-dorm and I have put my trekking jacket between me and the wall and it was gone the next morning…boy, I was so mad and disappointed. But out there, it never happened to me and I have done camping all over Europe. I am sure that everybody will keep the core valuables always at the body anyway, right. You need to put the trust in others, or you may prefer to stop doing hikes and that will be a real loss. Relax, hike and keep your eyes open! Tim

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: You’ve got to read more history.  Read about the really old : not-so-good days of the areas you wander through.  Every one of them : has stories of murders, thefts, some have cannibalism, etc.. I agree that the whole notion of the "good old days" is nothing more than selective memory and wishful thinking.  I always wonder exactly when were the "good old days".

                                     snip< Generally agree with both of you. My thinking trends toward the idea that the "good old days" is a myth. Would anyone here consider taking a solo trip on a main highway in medieval Europe?  Not without a prominent display of arms I hope. The further back you look, the worse it was.  Certainly there are many regions today where you still take your chances.  Robbers in Guatemala, Taxi drivers in Mexico City who rob their fares, and fanatic separatists in the Himalaya who have beheaded western trekkers. I still feel safer in the relatively benign North American backcountry than in any large North American city.   – Robert

Response:

I’ve found that anything that charges a fee, however small, to get in is quieter and better behaved than anything that doesn’t.  Anything that has an official occasionally in sight is quieter and better behaved.  Our State Parks are safer than my home neighborhood.  Our State Forests, however, are the one place I’ve had serious trouble and where the formal campsites are ‘party-’til-you-puke’ fav spots for local youth.  That said, I’d still say that most of the State Forest sites are wonderful  and mostly safer than my home neighborhood (is it time I moved?)   General putins for lakes and rivers and popular trailheads in the mid part of the state are iffy.  If there’s a State Park to leave my vehicle in, I’d generally rather paddle a couple of miles extra rather than leave my vehicle at a couple of the putins I’ve tried.  Not had any trouble, but too much of a place that anyone can drive into and more troubled (or partying) youth problems and some extra of weirdos.  There’s at least one place near a fav river that’d be perfect to put my little kayak in at.  Except for the broken beer and booze bottles and the sickening smell of the trash heap that’s occasionally used for bonfires.  I’ve driven down to it, gotten out and looked and driven right away.  Local vehicles might be safe there, but I’m pretty sure mine wouldn’t be.  In fact, when I paddle or hike past it, I never even see local vehicles, which is another bad sign. However, up by the BWAC, I’ve seen trailheads/putins with every yuppie vehicle one could imagine, all looking  perfectly fine except for the dust on some that shows they’ve been there for at least a full week. Down in mid state and lower I’ve left my own vehicle for days at a time with perfect safety and heard little of any problems. Look before you park or camp.  Most places are safe.  Some are obviously not.  Think before you leave your vehicle.  If possible, find out about the local area.  Try asking at the nearest small convenience store.  Look around if there’s any housing nearby.  Does it look as if it costs a bit and is well maintained?  Then they’ll be even more anxious than you for the place to be safe.  Realize that crime, like lightning, can strike anywhere, but it’s got some favorite places.  Try to learn the signs.  If it strikes anyway, try to be philosophical about it if you live through it.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | We have camped for years and never have had an incident, so try to | consider this unusual.  You should be fine if you go to a state park, | private park or National Forest. Alot of the parks have locked gates | now. (you get the combo)  If you "boondock" you stand more of a chance | of being vandalized or tormented.  Be positive about your future plans, | you will enjoy the outdoors, I’m sure. | Happy Trails, | Joyce National Forests are not necessarily "safe". In my state (NH) we have had many incidents of trouble at National Forest campgrounds (some of these being "backcountry" sites), mainly caused by drunkeness. In one case a guy went after people in another nearby tent with a chain saw. Car break-ins at trailheads are extremely common here also.

—– I’m going to live forever or die trying. I only answer my email every few months, on average.   Patience helps.   http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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: You’ve got to read more history.  Read about the really old : not-so-good days of the areas you wander through.  Every one of them : has stories of murders, thefts, some have cannibalism, etc..  Society : is not necessarily becoming something.  You may just be becoming more : aware.  For really good old fashioned fun, read about the old Natchez : Trace.  You’d not have gone near it in its true ‘wilderness’ phase. I agree that the whole notion of the "good old days" is nothing more than selective memory and wishful thinking.  I always wonder exactly when were the "good old days".  Assuming they are supposed to be post industrial revolution… looking at the 1900’s… excluding various wars, the Great Depression, etc, what’s left?  The 1950’s?  Maybe if you were a white male.  In any case, hardly representative of our country’s past. — Dave Hinds

Response:

: How disheartening! : My wife and I have decided to begin camping this year and through recent : Christmas and birthday gifts, accumulated enough gear to be fairly prepared : campers.  This year will consist mostly of car camping, with aspirations to : become backpackers as our experience and skills accumulate. : While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only : concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by : others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. : This is a special concern since one of our major motives to camp is weekend : access to great fly fishing.  Plans to do so would have us both a distance : from camp while fishing and no eyes on our site and gear for hours at a : time. : Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping : our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the : camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject! I’d reckon the that a brandnew shiny car would be more likely to be broken into than an old heap. —    "do the boogie woogie in the South American way"                            Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)

Response:

| We have camped for years and never have had an incident, so try to | consider this unusual.  You should be fine if you go to a state park, | priviate park or National Forest. Alot of the parks have locked gates | now. (you get the combo)  If you "boondock" you stand more of a chance | of being vandalized or tormented.  Be positive about your future plans, | you will enjoy the outdoors, I’m sure. | Happy Trails, | Joyce National Forests are not necessarily "safe". In my state (NH) we have had many incidents of trouble at National Forest campgrounds (some of these being "backcountry" sites), mainly caused by drunkeness. In one case a guy went after people in another nearby tent with a chain saw. Car break-ins at trailheads are extremely common here also.

Response:

We have camped for years and never have had an incident, so try to consider this unusual.  You should be fine if you go to a state park, priviate park or National Forest. Alot of the parks have locked gates now. (you get the combo)  If you "boondock" you stand more of a chance of being vandalized or tormented.  Be positive about your future plans, you will enjoy the outdoors, I’m sure. Happy Trails, Joyce

Response:

Eddie Babin wrote It’s a tragedy it’s come to this where the only person in hundreds of square miles may be one you can’t trust.  I don’t know if anyone has provided any real statistical evidence but it’s my firm belief that you are much less likely to encounter people problems in the backcountry than anywhere else.  As a matter of fact, there’s no place I feel safer.  That, however, does not quell my apprehension about trail head parking. ed

It is pretty shocking to hear about people being robbed in the bush camping. I live in Canada and I have heard about a cabin being broken into but never a tent in a camp site. I often go camping/hiking as far in to the wilderness as I can go and even though I sometimes rarely see other people, when I do I am usually more wary. How sad is society becoming!

Response:

… It is pretty shocking to hear about people being robbed in the bush camping. I live in Canada and I have heard about a cabin being broken into but never a tent in a camp site. I often go camping/hiking as far in to the wilderness as I can go and even though I sometimes rarely see other people, when I do I am usually more wary. How sad is society becoming!

Becoming? I don’t have any reason to think that things are getting any worse. There is a part in each of us, some more than others, who will prey on others and behave opportunistically, particularly when the chances of being caught are virtually zero. Witness rioting and looting in cities after sporting matches, looting when public order breaks down after a natural disaster, and those itinerant cowboys and trappers who carried their heavy, short range 6-guns — they had them, not for fun, but to enforce their understanding of fairness, at least for 50 yards in all directions. Most people in the backcountry, like most people in the city, will treat you pretty generously, and certainly not rip you off. But the risk is always there, so don’t bet your lunch money (or your backcountry survival) on the goodness of your fellow man or woman. — Jeff ORBS Classifieds – Free outdoor classified ads     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs ORBS Escrow – Affordable safety for online buyers and sellers     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs/oe-homepage.html

Response:

You’ve got to read more history.  Read about the really old not-so-good days of the areas you wander through.  Every one of them has stories of murders, thefts, some have cannibalism, etc..  Society is not necessarily becoming something.  You may just be becoming more aware.  For really good old fashioned fun, read about the old Natchez Trace.  You’d not have gone near it in its true ‘wilderness’ phase.

 I sometimes rarely see other people, when I do I am usually more wary. How sad is society becoming!

—– I’m going to live forever or die trying. I only answer my email every few months, on average.   Patience helps.   http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

: While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only : concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by : others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. : This is a special concern since one of our major motives to camp is weekend : access to great fly fishing.  Plans to do so would have us both a distance : from camp while fishing and no eyes on our site and gear for hours at a : time. : Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping : our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the : camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject! It’s a tragedy it’s come to this where the only person in hundreds of square miles may be one you can’t trust.  I don’t know if anyone has provided any real statistical evidence but it’s my firm belief that you are much less likely to encounter people problems in the backcountry than anywhere else.  As a matter of fact, there’s no place I feel safer.  That, however, does not quell my apprehension about trail head parking. ed — | 21st Century Systems -+- http://www.tf-centsys.com |

Response:

You cached them to keep them from being stolen in the first place, yet you imply your faith/trust in your fellow man is somehow diminished and ask how far you have to go in hiding your cache?  Did you lock your vehicle?  If so, why?

Response:

How disheartening! My wife and I have decided to begin camping this year and through recent Christmas and birthday gifts, accumulated enough gear to be fairly prepared campers.  This year will consist mostly of car camping, with aspirations to become backpackers as our experience and skills accumulate. While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. This is a special concern since one of our major motives to camp is weekend access to great fly fishing.  Plans to do so would have us both a distance from camp while fishing and no eyes on our site and gear for hours at a time. Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject! Thanks! –Andy Charlotte, NC

Response:

How disheartening! While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject!

First let me re-inforce what I understood about the original post:   The theift was by, persons who were given to vandelism and thieft. IE: the gate was broken open as well as the items stolen. This is not common, IMHO, to many camping situations.  I have been car camping off and on for 20 years.  I have yet to be victim of a thieft, except by raccoons and squirles who help themselves to unsecured food. I am a car camper and have primarily used state camp grounds which are pretty well petroled.   I also find it interesting that when talk of camping security is brought up, no one seems to be concerned at all about the home they have left miles behind.   It does seem to me that an unprotected house  abandoned for a week or more would be a much easier target than a campsite where people are at had and may re-appear at any moment.  Yet no one is the least bit alarmed by leaving thier home, but fearful nearly to the point of panic about their camp site, or am I just nieve? But the case remains the same, I do not know that their is any absolute safeguard against people who are determined to be criminal. Whether the domicile is permanent or temporary. Fortuantely I choose to believe, and have discovered that criminals are still in the manority {except in Washington, DC }. Regards David Ronk To reply via e-mail remove "not_" from address.     By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer      meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)      (1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to      such equipment, punishable by action to recover actual monetary      loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for EACH violation.    Please do not send unsolicited commercial mail to my email account.

Response:

David, Sorry to read about your snowshoe theft at Dolly Sods. I’ve visited there dozens of times without incident (though not in the winter). I hope yours was an isolated incident. I’d suggest that the idiot(s) who broke down the gate may not have been the same ones to steal your stuff. The gate-breaking sounds like the act of some yahoo who’s just pissed off to find a closed road, thinking (wrongly) that he has a right to travel that road. I can certainly imagine that the same dickweed, in his pissed off state, would also be given to stealing someone else’s gear. However, I’d also bet that the sort of loser who would ram a gate with his car couldn’t be bothered to walk 100 feet off road to find your snowshoes–unless they were clearly visible from the road (but sounds like they weren’t). I’m thinking somebody probably just stumbled across them, and thought they were "easy pickings." Again, sorry; and thanks for the warning–I’ll be more careful there in the future. Rob

Response:

January 25th, 1999 This past weekend, John, Jeff and I set out from Maryland on a four-hour drive to Monongahela National Forest, in West Virginia.  Expecting winter weather, John and I brought our new, unused Yuba XSV-32’s, while our friend Jeff brought along some snowshoes that he had rented from REI (just in case anyone hears anything, they were Atlas 1033’s (9" x 29")).  When we got to Dolly Sods on Thursday evening, the final gate on SR 75, about 3 miles from the plateau, was locked.  There were about three inches of wet snow on the road surface, so thinking that there would be more up on the plateau, we strapped snowshoes to our packs and headed up.  Once up on top, a warm wind and melting permafrost greeted us.  We hastily made camp, since we had arrived after sundown, and bedded down for the night.  In the morning, we packed up our gear, took a look at the forecast, and decided to stash the snowshoes.  We chose a location 100 feet away from the road and well shielded by dense pine trees and stashed the

Question:

I’m going to be camping and fishing at Lake Almanor this coming weekend (June 13 -14). Is there anyone out there who might be able to pass on some tips? Is it true that mid-June is the time of the Hex hatch there? Is fishing from a tube a must? All tips and hints are sincerely appreciated. Scott

Response:

Scott,     The lake is high and cold.  All the tributaries are pumping in snow melt and the laake is about three feet from being full.  At this point the fishing is slow.  What fish are being taken are full of midges  and a few Hex. nymphs they are grubbing along the bottom.     We normally look toward the 4th of July for our Hex hatch.  This is still a little early and the hatch will be delayed until the water conditions are better.  Try Yellow creek or look for some small streams, of which there are plenty in the area, to get some fishing in. Ralph Wood C & R Guide Service – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m going to be camping and fishing at Lake Almanor this coming weekend (June 13 -14). Is there anyone out there who might be able to pass on some tips? Is it true that mid-June is the time of the Hex hatch there? Is fishing from a tube a must? All tips and hints are sincerely appreciated. Scott

Response:

Question:

I saw the show this morning.  Jerry and the inventor, or marketer, were fishing a trout river for rainbow and brown’s.  They were using it to cast mini jigs according to Jerry.  It was as I said in my original post.  They did seem to get pretty good distance with it and I am sure it is much less obtrusive than a casting bubble to the fish.  Seemed like a nice alternative for the non-flyfisher.  Also, I do think Cabela’s handles them. Jay – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this what they used to call "spinning tapers"?  They were 14-16′ long and you cast  them with a spinning rod.  The one I had was a Sunset or Courtland and was a size G-A  ( this was in the 60s – before numbers). It work fair on a spinning rod.  It worked best on a fly rod tied directly to the backing You could get a lot of distance out of it.  After I got rid of it I read some of shooting heads and shooting lines.  Do they still sell them? The long distances you could get didn’t require a lot of room behind you. The new Spinfly Line for flyfishing with a spinning rod will be featured on ESPN’s Fishing Hole (Bob McKinnis) this Saturday at 0730 Central Time. The Spinfly Line alows anglers to cast conventional flies with spinning rods and is supposed to be easy to do. BTW, could someone from the Pacific coast advice when this same show would be on the air. Ron Looi  ~       ~~    ~ ~   ..|..    ~           __|__                  ~ ~       /             o  o     o  o         ~     ~~  /~~   |   X    |                                /*_ .//     |||. /_  ||| ||..               ^ . ~//_^ / . -/ / – Boeing Fishin’                                     <  <, Peacock Bass – "www.geocities.com/RainForest/2730/"    <<

Response:

The Spinfly Line alows anglers to cast conventional flies with spinning rods and is supposed to be easy to do. This sounds interesting – hope someone posts a report on it after the show.

I cannot write a report until I have actually tried one out. I seems very easy to cast and when I called Skip Halterman to ask if it would be as easy as it seems he replied with a positive yes, provided we use the appropriate tackle for each spinfly line. I have scanned some pages and put the on my website for download at "www.geocities.com/RainForest/2730/spinfly.zip".  For more information you might want to call Skip or Jade Halterman at 1-800-752-7132. Say you found it on the fishing Newsgroups on Internet On a somewhat-related note, does anyone have any experience with using casting bubbles for big Pike flies?

There is a 300 Grain Spinflyline that is 23 inches long, 3/4 oze., for 14# test and up. Perhaps that would be sufficient for pike flies? Good Fishing. Ron Looi  ~       ~~    ~   ~   ..|..    ~           __|__                  ~ ~       /             o  o     o  o         ~     ~~  /~~   |   X    |                                /*_ .//     |||. /_  ||| ||..               ^ . ~//_^ / . -/ / – Boeing Fishin’                                     <  <, Peacock Bass – "www.geocities.com/RainForest/2730/"    <<

Response:

I have been involved in a foucus group for a well known fly fishing equipment manufacturer who has recently expanded their line to include high end spinning rods. We have been provided 7 through 9wt equivelent WF floating line for these spinning rods, which allow the use of commonly used flies. Keep watching for details. Marshal A. Mellow Senior Tester

Response:

There is a 300 Grain Spinflyline that is 23 inches long, 3/4 oze., for 14# test and up. Perhaps that would be sufficient for pike flies?

Do you know where I can find more information on this?  I phoned Cabalas, and they hadn’t heard of it.

Response:

Do you know where I can find more information on this?  I phoned Cabalas, and they hadn’t heard of it.

I don’t think Cabela’s would have them. It is a very new product. I did post the following information which would be of help :- "I have scanned some pages and put the on my website for download at "www.geocities.com/RainForest/2730/spinfly.zip".  For more information you might want to call Skip or Jade Halterman at 1-800-752-7132. Say you found it on the fishing Newsgroups on Internet". Good fishing Ron Looi  ~       ~~    ~   ~   ..|..    ~           __|__                  ~ ~       /             o  o     o  o         ~     ~~  /~~   |   X    |                                /*_ .//     |||. /_  ||| ||..               ^ . ~//_^ / . -/ / – Boeing Fishin’                                     <  <, Peacock Bass – "www.geocities.com/RainForest/2730/"    <<

Response:

We carry the new Spin Fly lines and would be happy to mail order them to anyone interested.  They are just beginning to get attention here, but have sold very well in Japan over the last year or so (go figure).  You can email us or call us at 1-888-200-0364, toll-free, for details. Check out our Spring Specials at http://www.flash.net/~rhart Lauren Hart, Brazos FlyFishers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a 300 Grain Spinflyline that is 23 inches long, 3/4 oze., for 14# test and up. Perhaps that would be sufficient for pike flies? Do you know where I can find more information on this?  I phoned Cabalas, and they hadn’t heard of it.

Response:

: I feel , however, that it takes the fun and : challenge out of using a flyrod. Nonsense…this spinfly line could be used by those who don’t normally use flies as a lead-in to "real" fly fishing…i think fly fisherman are shaking in their pants b/c this line allows the "unwashed masses" of fisherman access to fish and rivers which have been off-limmits to spin fisherman for decades…(b/c of regulations or the finicy nature of wild trout)…just my two cents…   — Pierre (My best friends fly fish, btw)

Response:

this spinfly line could be used by those who don’t normally use flies as a lead-in to "real" fly fishing…

I agree.  While I have one friend that is currently into fly-fishing, and another that is stumbling his way into it, I don’t have the opportunity to take it up yet.  Ridiculous yearly spending caps combined with rotation of who gets what spent on their equipment in my household mean that it will be a couple of years before I can enter the world of true fly-fishing…wives can be such a pain  ;)  These spinflys may give me the opportunity to learn a little before I actually start spending money on my rig.

Response:

The new Spinfly Line for flyfishing with a spinning rod will be featured on ESPN’s Fishing Hole (Bob McKinnis) this Saturday at 0730 Central Time. The Spinfly Line alows anglers to cast conventional flies with spinning rods and is supposed to be easy to do. BTW, could someone from the Pacific coast advice when this same show would be on the air. Ron Looi  ~       ~~    ~   ~   ..|..    ~           __|__                  ~ ~       /             o  o     o  o         ~     ~~  /~~   |   X    |                                /*_ .//     |||. /_  ||| ||..               ^ . ~//_^ / . -/ / – Boeing Fishin’                                     <  <, Peacock Bass – "www.geocities.com/RainForest/2730/"    <<

Response:

The new Spinfly Line for flyfishing with a spinning rod will be featured on ESPN’s Fishing Hole (Bob McKinnis) this Saturday at 0730 Central Time.

 Hi Ron,..Are they any good ? Have you tried any ?Any chance of sending some over ? I feel , however, that it takes the fun and challenge out of using a flyrod. Tonywee.

Response:

Hi Ron,..Are they any good ? Have you tried any ?Any chance of sending some over ? I feel , however, that it takes the fun and challenge out of using a flyrod.

Have not tried them yet and a lot of people here have not even seen it yet or know what the heck I am talking about. I hope someone on the Pacific coast could tell me when ESPN’s Fishing Hole will be on the air this Saturday morning so that I could watch it in action for the first time. Ron Looi  ~       ~~    ~   ~   ..|..    ~           __|__                  ~ ~       /             o  o     o  o         ~     ~~  /~~   |   X    |                                /*_ .//     |||. /_  ||| ||..               ^ . ~//_^ / . -/ / – Boeing Fishin’                                     <  <, Peacock Bass – "www.geocities.com/RainForest/2730/"    <<

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I think that I saw these last year in Cabela’s big fishing catalog.  It is basically a section of floating flyline about 14 inches long with a little bulge in the middle and loops on both ends.  Maybe it’s the worlds shortest double taper!  Anyhow, it would be fun for someone that had a difficult time with a flyrod.  Might pick one up for one of my younger daugthers to use since a flyrod is still too difficult and they like tying their own flies. Right now they use the clear casting bubbles. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Ron,..Are they any good ? Have you tried any ?Any chance of sending some over ? I feel , however, that it takes the fun and challenge out of using a flyrod. Have not tried them yet and a lot of people here have not even seen it yet or know what the heck I am talking about. I hope someone on the Pacific coast could tell me when ESPN’s Fishing Hole will be on the air this Saturday morning so that I could watch it in action for the first time. Ron Looi ~       ~~    ~ ~   ..|..    ~           __|__                  ~ ~     /             o  o     o  o         ~     ~~  /~~  |   X    |                                /*_ .//     |||. /_  ||| ||..               ^ . ~//_^ / . -/ / – Boeing Fishin’                                     <  <, Peacock Bass – "www.geocities.com/RainForest/2730/"    <<

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The Spinfly Line alows anglers to cast conventional flies with spinning rods and is supposed to be easy to do.

This sounds interesting – hope someone posts a report on it after the show. On a somewhat-related note, does anyone have any experience with using casting bubbles for big Pike flies?

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Is this what they used to call "spinning tapers"?  They were 14-16′ long and you cast  them with a spinning rod.  The one I had was a Sunset or Courtland and was a size G-A  ( this was in the 60s – before numbers).   It work fair on a spinning rod.  It worked best on a fly rod tied directly to the backing You could get a lot of distance out of it.  After I got rid of it I read some of shooting heads and shooting lines.  Do they still sell them?   The long distances you could get didn’t require a lot of room behind you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The new Spinfly Line for flyfishing with a spinning rod will be featured on ESPN’s Fishing Hole (Bob McKinnis) this Saturday at 0730 Central Time. The Spinfly Line alows anglers to cast conventional flies with spinning rods and is supposed to be easy to do. BTW, could someone from the Pacific coast advice when this same show would be on the air. Ron Looi  ~       ~~    ~ ~   ..|..    ~           __|__                  ~ ~       /             o  o     o  o         ~     ~~  /~~   |   X    |                                /*_ .//     |||. /_  ||| ||..               ^ . ~//_^ / . -/ / – Boeing Fishin’                                     <  <, Peacock Bass – "www.geocities.com/RainForest/2730/"    <<

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Question:

I’ve got the good luck to have 4-days near Evergreen CO in early August and am looking for suggestions on streams to stalk, catch and release. Don’t mind walking in a bit and I don’t need big name water or 18" fish to have fun – although 18" fish are… Anything within a reasonable 2-hour drive?  Thanks and let me know how to reciprocate for Wisconsin, if I can.

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The local fly shop in Evergreen is the Blue Quill Angler.  Same folks that run the Orvis Colorado Fly Fishing school, Rick Rishell runs it and his number 800-235-9763.  They would give you a very good idea as to what is going on there.  Bear Creek right in town was aggressively cleaned up and improved by the local TU chapter.  Behind the Amoco gas station a few years ago I caught a 18" rainbow.  Clear Creek along I-70 is pretty good too at Georgetown, that’s just up the road a few miles.  Those are great after work areas.  The South Platte river at Deckers is close to for a serious session of lots of fish.  Stop in at the fly shop in Deckers (Motel, gas pump, cafe/bar and fly shop setup, it is the town) and get the info on the current flies.  You can go North to Hot Sulphur Springs and hit the Colorado, great time of year for the Colorado.  Evergreen is a great place to get to lots of the famous gold medal water but the little streams right around town are really fun.  LOTS of water this year. — Ken Rupkalvis, THE Republic of Texas

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got the good luck to have 4-days near Evergreen CO in early August and am looking for suggestions on streams to stalk, catch and release. Don’t mind walking in a bit and I don’t need big name water or 18" fish to have fun – although 18" fish are… Anything within a reasonable 2-hour drive?  Thanks and let me know how to reciprocate for Wisconsin, if I can.

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Question:

I went with the Simms Gore-Tex Micro Fibers.   They’re expensive,  but super comfortable.   I also use them for backpacking with a pair of Tevas.

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I just bought the new Orvis No-Sweat waders and couldn’t be happier.  They are super comfortable and you really don’t sweat.  Very lightweight also, they just fold up and are carried in a little bag that they come with. You can’t beat the guarantee either.  One year and if your waders have a hole for any reason, Orvis will replace them free.  Nobody else offers this.

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Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John

Just got Orvis stocking hippers and (so far) they’ve been ok (stay away from Fly Tech or other cheap brands).  I use Nike (or similar brand) Aquasocks which are light weight and very functional. hope this helps;  let me know if you hit agood spot in the Sierras–I go up often and am always looking for new places– aaron

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Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John

You might not need any for the small streams.  If you think you do I would William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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After five years of heavy fising I have just retired the lightweight Orvis stocking foot waders.  With some care, ie look out for thorns, branches in the woods, I have gotten a good five years of use.           Also the canvas boots from LLBeans is quite good.  Cheaper than Orvis too.  They cost about $50.  The orvis waders and hippers wore very well.  I am still using the hippers.  Good luck, FHK

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John You might not need any for the small streams.  If you think you do I would William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

William, I am not Bob, am using his browser, he told me to say this because he is embaressed by my question, however,  I am new to this sport. and I want to purchase a good all around pair of waders. What do you recommend.  I see many many different brands.  I don’t want to spend a a lot, but don’t want to get wet either or buy a new pair next year when I learn more.  Your recommendations are appreciated!!!   Thanks Phyllis

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: Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight : waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need : waders that are very light yet durable. Red Ball Supplex waders- superlight and tough. And don’t forget a patch kit –mike

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Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John

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Question:

(Steve Westre) writes: I decided that I would start fresh this year and go with only Rio tippet. Bought Rio leaders and tippet and then discovered that I bought a bunch of Orvis leaders last year.  Does anyone know if the two are compatible? From past experience I know that there is no strength if you have certain mixes.  Seems one cuts the other.  Steve Steve, The problem is joining theco-polymers to older type softer monofilaments.  

The co-polymers (Orvis,Rio, Umpqua, Climax, etc.) are harder materials and can cut through thesofter regular mono such as Maxima, Ande, etc. (trim)… Dan: I’ve been using a combination of Maxima for butt section and Umpqua for tippet for several years now with no apparent problem.  The stiffness of Maxima is offset nicely by the Umpqua, and the combination makes for a great leader.  So far, I haven’t had one saw through the other. John

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I decided that I would start fresh this year and go with only Rio tippet. Bought Rio leaders and tippet and then discovered that I bought a bunch of Orvis leaders last year.  Does anyone know if the two are compatible? From past experience I know that there is no strength if you have certain mixes.  Seems one cuts the other.  Steve Steve Westre Denton, MD

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(Steve Westre) writes: I decided that I would start fresh this year and go with only Rio tippet. Bought Rio leaders and tippet and then discovered that I bought a bunch of Orvis leaders last year.  Does anyone know if the two are compatible? From past experience I know that there is no strength if you have certain mixes.  Seems one cuts the other.  Steve

Steve, Both are co-polymers and should be compatible, but for the surest connection, use all of one or the other.  The problem is joining the co-polymers to older type softer monofilaments.  The co-polymers (Orvis, Rio, Umpqua, Climax, etc.) are harder materials and can cut through the softer regular mono such as Maxima, Ande, etc. You should be able to use up your current supply with no trouble, but would probably be a good idea to replace it as you use it up with either entirely one or the other.                                                                 Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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Question:

Does any one have any info on landlock flies?techniques they would like to share It would be greatly apreciated.                                         Adam Ford

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 (Adam Ford) writes: Does any one have any info on landlock flies?techniques they would like to share It would be greatly apreciated.

Standards: 1–streamers that imitate smelt, in rivers in spring (when smelt spawn) and trolling in lakes all year, 2–small Muddlers in white water, 3–matching the hatch of dries or nymphs, when trout-like feeding can be observed, 4–big nymphs in deep pockets (Charles Brooks style). —  |          Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Rd., Carlsbad         |  |        Springs, Ont., Canada K0A 1K0; tel: (613) 822-0734       |  |  "What I’ve always liked about science is its independence from |  |  authority"–Ontario Science Centre (name on file) 10 July 1981 |

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Adam, Joe Jack who lives here in Burke VA introduced to me to spring fishing for Landlocks in Maine at Wheaton’s Lodge on East Grand Lake (Canadian Border).  We fished with "tandem" streamer flies.  These are large streamers with a second trailing hook to get the ones who "short strike" the fly.  He also ties single hook versions for the rivers.  The tandem flies are "trolled" from a canoe with your fly rod and about half of your fly line out the back of the canoe.  He sells flies whoesale and retail.  Contact me separately for his phone number.  Wheaton’s Lodge was great.  I had my own cabin with 3/4 bath, wood stove and 3 home cooked meals a day for $75/day.  Guides are $115/day for 2 fisherman.   Boat and motor can be rented for $35/day.  I can’t wait to go back. Bill A.

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This past summer I did some trolling with flies for landlocked salmon in Maine in July.  We trolled with lead core lines to get down 20+ feet.  I used and old bamboo bait rod and antique pflueger summit bait reel.  You don’t get as good a fight with the lead core but you can still get down to the big ones in the lakes with flies.  We used tube flies tied on copper tubes.  These were new to me but I think they’re really cool.  We tied standard traditional streamer patterns on them and strung them on a short shock tippet attached to a small treble hook.  Use a plastic tube (aquarium tubing) to make a releasable connector at rear of fly tube.  I tied a few strands of silver flashabou and some white marabou on the treble hooks.  Deadly!  My buddy makes his tube flies on heavier copper conduit tube, about 3/8" diameter and permanently attaches the treble with spring steel wire running through the tube,  truly lures, definitely not fly fishing be careful in special regulation areas.   Normally I stick with the real traditional patterns.  A great reference book is Trolling Flies for Trout and Salmon by Dick Stewart and Bob Leeman distributed by the Stephen Green Press Fessenden Rd. Brattleboro VT 05301 and Universal Vise Corp16 Union Ave, Westfield MA. 01085. E-Mail me if I can tie some flies for you or if you have any questions. Landlocks are the best!  Catch and release Dave Wood

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