Question:

Allen As a retired labor economist, harumph, harumph. . . you are on the money ($25-35) for most of the biz/corp and entry pilots. And the folks flying the regional nets don’t get much more. Same goes for mechanics, helo pilots etc. Folks do it for the love of aviation near as I can tell. Dime a dozen here in Seattle area. As to the $200k after 10-12 years with a major. . . I think you are high, but I never did a formal analysis of the high end. Dave

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I know that’s why *I* started – to meet a better class of people. — TL, Tim (the elitest)

Years ago, Ed Zern wrote a column refuting the notion that only a better class of people fly fish.  He said one of the most skillful dry-fly men he ever saw owned a string of sporting houses up and down the East Coast. vince norris

Response:

Years ago, Ed Zern…said one of the most skillful dry-fly men he ever saw owned a string of sporting houses up and down the East Coast.

Still, fly fishing must attract SOME people of lesser quality, don’tcha think?      :) Wolfgang

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Those guys had access to a private jet? From my experiences as a Grand Canyon Guide, you probably could have chatted up those pilots, showed them a casting trick or two, and gotten an invite to get flown somewhere in return. A friend of mine is a pilot and flew for an oil man for a while back when oil was king. He didn’t have much, if any, latitude at all where the plane went or who went along – but he did get to fish with his boss when he flew him on fishing trips.

Did he ever ‘drop your name’ to his boss as a potential fishing partner? Of course, a lot depends on the relationship between boss, pilot and plane, but I bet many pilots who regularly fly for the same owner would be good people to be chums with. A ladyfriend of mine got a free sail around the world when she became chummy with the captain of some oil magnates yacht. riverman

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Did he ever ‘drop your name’ to his boss as a potential fishing partner? Of course, a lot depends on the relationship between boss, pilot and plane, but I bet many pilots who regularly fly for the same owner would be good people to be chums with.

I never asked him to ‘drop my name’, but another friend we both grew up with was always trying to mooch something and I don’t think he was very successful. My pilot friend wanted to move on up to an airline job and I wasn’t interested in asking him to risk anything with his boss. It would probably be easier if you could find someone at the end of their career who didn’t give a shit. <g — Charlie…

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 USA Today has an article today (June 21) about executives  and flyfishing.  "There’s something about flyfishing that  attracts people who rise to the top."  etc… Remove "XX" from address

From their site: "Fly fishing is not the passive sport of putting a worm on a hook. It’s a graceful back-and-forth casting in the air of fishing line and feathers tied tight to a hook and the skilled landing of the fly atop the water, insect manna from heaven to a finicky fish." Who in the hell have they been watching? John

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  USA Today has an article today (June 21) about executives  and flyfishing.  "There’s something about flyfishing that  attracts people who rise to the top."  etc… Remove "XX" from address From their site: "Fly fishing is not the passive sport of putting a worm on a hook. It’s a graceful back-and-forth casting in the air of fishing line and feathers tied tight to a hook and the skilled landing of the fly atop the water, insect manna from heaven to a finicky fish." Who in the hell have they been watching? John

Not me, that’s fer sure. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Private pilots for an executive?  Heh, heh, heh.  They make a helluva lot more than the average roffian and should be able to pay for their own flyfishing vacation.  But, still…..  perhaps the exec thinks familiarity breeds contempt.

I didn’t get the impression from either of those groups of private pilots that they were rolling in dough. They were doing OK, about like your average professional. Not as well as you, Dave. The first group I met, a couple of years ago, had just flown Edgar Bronfman, Jr. (of Seagram’s) in for a society weekend in Sun Valley. I was naturally curious about the lifestyles of the rich and famous, so I asked questions. Bronfman’s jet was a Gulfstream IV, which, if I recall correctly, they said cost $60 million. They that said he (or the company) had more than one — they weren’t sure how many, but at least two. It required a crew of three and cost $5000/hr to operate (not including the crew). Incredible. Those pilots had never flyfished before, and there they were fishing the morning Trico spinner fall on Silver Creek, with #12 Royal Wulffs and 5x tippet, slapping the water on their backcasts. I’d never fished that hatch before either, but I was prepared, with the right flies and 7x tippet. I got really lucky and picked a spot right above a large pod of fish. Caught three nice ‘bows. (Yeah, I know, Wolfgang, you insufferable dipshit.) They thought I was a fishing god. If only they knew. I gave them tippet and some flies, and told them about the spring-creek downstream presentation, but it didn’t do any good that day. Maybe if they came back later it helped. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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jet was a Gulfstream IV, which, if I recall correctly, they said cost $60 million

check out these guys: http://www.eclipseaviation.com/ bruce h

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You’d be surprised. Corporate pilots generally don’t make a much money at all. It’s a way to build multi-engine turbine flight time and get to a major airline where they make more money than I care to think about (after 4 years that is) The corporate pilot lifestyle often is an on-call job so having a life is tough unless it’s a big company that has multiple aircraft and crews. Even at a major airline first year pilot pay is only about $20K but generally by the time you get to 10 or 12 years and a Captain you’re up above $200K Allen Epps Catonsville, MD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rw writes: Silver Creek snipped Private pilots for an executive?  Heh, heh, heh.  They make a helluva lot more than the average roffian and should be able to pay for their own flyfishing vacation.  But, still…..  perhaps the exec thinks familiarity breeds contempt.   Dave

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i’ll put silver creek "on the must see list"… thanx…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – silver creek…as in near gramby, co?? No. It’s near Picabo, ID. (Also fairly near Bellevue, Hailey, and Ketchum, and about 100 miles from Stanley, my home town.) Silver Creek, Idaho is a famous spring creek — one of the very best in the Western US. Much of it is public water, so it gets a lot of pressure. I especially like to fish it in the Fall, when I’m sometimes the only one there. You’re going to be in Ketchum in August, right, beancounter? If so, you just HAVE pay a visit to Silver Creek. Even if you don’t catch one of those notoriously selective trout, it’s worth the experience. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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… They thought I was a fishing god. If only they knew. I gave them tippet and some flies, and told them about the spring-creek downstream presentation, but it didn’t do any good that day. Maybe if they came back later it helped.

Those guys had access to a private jet? From my experiences as a Grand Canyon Guide, you probably could have chatted up those pilots, showed them a casting trick or two, and gotten an invite to get flown somewhere in return. Folks would wait 5 years and pay thousands of dollars to do Canyon trips, but I had access to the boats, gear, and was doing 4-6 trips a year. I could <easily get someone on a trip, or arrange a private trip somewhere if someone turned out to be an interesting person and was interested. One mans inaccessible luxury is another mans day-to-day. riverman

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Those guys had access to a private jet? From my experiences as a Grand Canyon Guide, you probably could have chatted up those pilots, showed them a casting trick or two, and gotten an invite to get flown somewhere in return.

A friend of mine is a pilot and flew for an oil man for a while back when oil was king. He didn’t have much, if any, latitude at all where the plane went or who went along – but he did get to fish with his boss when he flew him on fishing trips. — Charlie…

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silver creek…as in near gramby, co??

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I was at Silver Creek a couple of weeks ago I met two pilots who fly a private jet. Oddly, this was the second time that’s happened to me at Silver Creek. They’d flown in some super wealthy Chicago commodities trader who was fishing exclusive private water all over the western Rockies. We got to talking about how those super rich people lead such different lives from us. They were kind of bitter about it, complaining about how cheap their boss was and how he’d never dream of inviting them to fish the private water. I said that we have more fun than they do, and those guys agreed with a laugh. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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silver creek…as in near gramby, co??

No. It’s near Picabo, ID. (Also fairly near Bellevue, Hailey, and Ketchum, and about 100 miles from Stanley, my home town.) Silver Creek, Idaho is a famous spring creek — one of the very best in the Western US. Much of it is public water, so it gets a lot of pressure. I especially like to fish it in the Fall, when I’m sometimes the only one there. You’re going to be in Ketchum in August, right, beancounter? If so, you just HAVE pay a visit to Silver Creek. Even if you don’t catch one of those notoriously selective trout, it’s worth the experience. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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rw writes: When I was at Silver Creek a couple of weeks ago I met two pilots who fly a private jet. Oddly, this was the second time that’s happened to me at Silver Creek. They’d flown in some super wealthy Chicago commodities trader who was fishing exclusive private water all over the western Rockies. We got to talking about how those super rich people lead such different lives from us. They were kind of bitter about it, complaining about how cheap their boss was and how he’d never dream of inviting them to fish the private water. I said that we have more fun than they do, and those guys agreed with a laugh.

Private pilots for an executive?  Heh, heh, heh.  They make a helluva lot more than the average roffian and should be able to pay for their own flyfishing vacation.  But, still…..  perhaps the exec thinks familiarity breeds contempt.   Dave

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Tim J writes: Maybe what they’re saying is that if you flyfish, you are in the top percentile of the human race. I know that’s why *I* started – to meet a better class of people. — Yeah, and ya ended up with me, Fortenberry, Wolfie, wayno, walt, Jeffie, rw, Warren, all the Waynes, a Reid, and anyone else who calls himself a roffian. Seems like you got screwed!  d;0) Dave

You’re telling me! — TL, Tim . . . but you guys ended up with me, so we’re even!

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When I was at Silver Creek a couple of weeks ago I met two pilots who fly a private jet. Oddly, this was the second time that’s happened to me at Silver Creek. They’d flown in some super wealthy Chicago commodities trader who was fishing exclusive private water all over the western Rockies. We got to talking about how those super rich people lead such different lives from us. They were kind of bitter about it, complaining about how cheap their boss was and how he’d never dream of inviting them to fish the private water. I said that we have more fun than they do, and those guys agreed with a laugh. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Uh, Allen, the term is "bottom dwellers" – I don’t think I want to be known as a nymph – don’t have the bod for it. So….., you would be a celibate slut?

I don’t think that even I could pull off that contradiction  . . . Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Umm perhaps I should clarify I meant to type nymphers. Musta been the coupla Ciders I’ve had to celebrate Friday. Allen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Uh, Allen, the term is "bottom dwellers" – I don’t think I want to be known as a nymph – don’t have the bod for it. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Tim J writes: Maybe what they’re saying is that if you flyfish, you are in the top percentile of the human race. I know that’s why *I* started – to meet a better class of people. —

Yeah, and ya ended up with me, Fortenberry, Wolfie, wayno, walt, Jeffie, rw, Warren, all the Waynes, a Reid, and anyone else who calls himself a roffian. Seems like you got screwed!  d;0) Dave

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  USA Today has an article today (June 21) about executives  and flyfishing.  "There’s something about flyfishing that  attracts people who rise to the top."  etc… Remove "XX" from address

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Uh, Allen, the term is "bottom dwellers" – I don’t think I want to be known as a nymph – don’t have the bod for it. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Uh, Allen, the term is "bottom dwellers" – I don’t think I want to be known as a nymph – don’t have the bod for it.

So….., you would be a celibate slut? — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

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 USA Today has an article today (June 21) about executives  and flyfishing.  "There’s something about flyfishing that  attracts people who rise to the top."  etc…

Maybe what they’re saying is that if you flyfish, you are in the top percentile of the human race. I know that’s why *I* started – to meet a better class of people. — TL, Tim (the elitest)

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Question:

Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies.

More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Dave

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More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived.

Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.

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My father brought home a 23 pound Pike from Minnesota years ago that had a huge scar on both sides of it’s body that was the result of a considerably larger Pike getting a death grip on her.  The wound was mostly healed, and the fish put up a great fight, so it clearly wasn’t weakened.   Some have said that the bleeding won’t stop.  That is simply wrong.   Some have said that if the gills are cut, then the bleeding won’t stop.  That may be true in some circumstances, but certainly not in all circumstances. Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table? My experience matches Peter’s with juveniles being more delicate, and with larger fish surviving tremendous injuries. Last year at Great Slave Lake my son Andy caught a blind pike.  The fishes eyes were entirely gone, but it managed to find his fly and put up a presentable fight.  It was only 6 or 7 pounds, and uninjured by the fly so we released it.  We couldn’t guess how it lost it’s sight. Frank Ammoto(sp?) wrote an article about steelhead fishing in BC long ago where he caught a steelhead that didn’t put up the usual fight.   When he landed it he discovered that literally half of it’s head had been bitten off by a seal.  This fish was 100 miles upstream from the nearest seal. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.

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Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table?

I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer.  I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river.  It did die though.  There was no mistaking it.  No big deal really.  I am sure some other critter was able to enjoy a nice fish. Unlike "some" people, I am not tormented by this. I wonder if water temps, time of year, etc make much of a difference. Perhaps in colder waters, their metabolism is moving slower and the bleeding eventually stops compared to warm water, faster metabolism, etc. I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all.  Think about it.  When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it?  I don’t draw blood when I lop off the fins of some perch and don’t strike blood until I lop off their heads or when I open them up to gut.  Just a few thoughts and not scientific answers. . . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?

That’s supposed to be a joke?? You remain one sick fuckin’ puppy.

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Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it.

Tim, This came up recently either on ROFF or ROFS. If ROFF sorry for the repeat of the site. http://www.leadertec.com/Catch_release.html Kiyu

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Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it.  You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott?

Well, as an erstwhile medical practitioner, I usually call it icky goo. When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?

Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why so many people would rather consort with fish slime than with you? Still not Pete

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Sure, they do die, I’ve seen that often too. I bet the water temperature has a lot to do with it.  Dry Falls Lake is a selective fishery in Eastern Washington that has a nice collection of 14 to 24 inch rainbows and a few nice browns.  One year it was warmer than usual around opening day, and I could see twenty or thirty dead fish on the second day of the season while the morning of the first day there were none.  I was sure these were fish that had been injured when they were hooked and released.  Other years there were no dead fish on the second or third day.  I’m sure it wasn’t any difference in the anglers or the education or the fish.  It had to be environmental. Today I was fishing for Silvers on the Cascade river and snagged a hard fighting 7 pounder.  All the skin and flesh was gone from the top of his head, right down to the bone.  That’s an area of about four square inches.  He put up quite a fight, and I released him unharmed.  The wound was red around the edges, and the rest was clean white bone.  The only likely perpetrator was a seal, and that had to have happened thirty miles down stream at the mouth of the Skagit.   All this is cold clean water, I’m sure that helped. As for that horible feeling that the fish has died, I don’t get that either.  It is wonderful to see all these dead pink salmon providing the nutrients our rivers have been starving for over the last several years. Chas Still thinking about carpooling to the Pike clave… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer.  I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river.  It did die though.   … snip . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone.  My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible. Why do I care about the slime on a fish I’m keeping?  (That’s an honest question, not a sarcastic comment)  I’ve noticed that fish I’ve gutted in the field and packed on ice seem to build up a heave slime layer by the time I get them home.  I wonder if the "slime glands" are like our hair folicles and keep functioning after the body has died. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone.  My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible.

just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do.  and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris

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I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all.  Think about it.  When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it?

Not much.  Maybe that’s the answer.  Fish just don’t have that much blood. Other than a major artery or the gills, they just don’t bleed much.  When you do cut the gills, they can lose such a high percentage of their blood so quickly (relatively speaking) that it’s sometimes fatal.  Maybe it’s not a blood clot issue at all.

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More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t.  Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds.  Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens?

Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.

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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.

Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution.  The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you see? George Gehrke

  george.vcf

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The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t

necessary, don’t you see? I see the beauty of releasing bleeders in to an 11 inch cold handle cauterizer… — TBone

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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period. Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution.  The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you

see? Catercizes.  Yes, I think I see now.

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I suspect you’re right.  I think the main reason I keep them on a stringer is that I like to get them on ice as soon after they die as possible.  If I’m going to keep fishing, I’d rather keep the fish fresh by keeping it alive.  I know that’s not what I said before, but in that context I thought the delay might have some value. Thanks Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do.  and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris

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The best way to preserve ‘the slime layer’ is to never touch a fish with dry hands nor do you let it flop on dry ground. Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it.  You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott? When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

  george.vcf

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In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health.

Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it. — TBone

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Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence eithe

I’ve seen many trout that have had huge scars and chunks of flesh missing that have survived quite well, but *every* trout or salmon that I’ve seen bleeding from the gills has died within minutes, often within seconds. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding.

IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

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Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Dave

More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t.  Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds.  Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens? TC, R

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In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke

  george.vcf

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I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound.  All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal.  On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding.   The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom.  They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding.  As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a multi-part message in MIME format. In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke [ george.vcf ] (Attachment)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound.  All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal.  On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding.   The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom.  They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding.  As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas

Chas, I don’t have the range of encounters that you have mentioned but I can talk about a few instances.  We are taught that fish have no platelets and all bleeding inevitably leads to death.  I have hooked deeply small trout on C&R or slot limit streams that I was required by law to release and I have watched these bleeding fish die.  Yet I have also hooked a landlock salmon under the jaw, caused a very nasty, distinctive wound, had it bleed, released it (as required by law) and caught it the very next day on the same fly.   I have also caught smallmouth with fresh, bleeding mouth wounds opposite to the site of the hook puncture, that I had obviously caused having hooked and lost the same fish some time earlier (I was the only fisherman there.) These experiences have suggested to me that fish with major bleeding will die but a minor bleed is not necessarily fatal.  I also agree that pike with minor bleeding wounds will usually survive.  In my experience, most pike that are brought into a boat are returned to the water with at least some bleeding.  They thrash so much that even with experienced handling, it’s hard to keep them from banging into something that will cut them.  If mortality from these casual bleeds was 100%, C&R mortality for pike would be probably in excess of 50%. Nobody talks about pike as being endangered. So obviously, C&R mortality has to be running a lot lower (as suggested by virtually all studies – however flawed.)   Therefore, bleeding is not necessarily fatal – hardly scientific but definitely within the experience of this fisherman.  I have also caught steelhead with a fungus growth covering wounds inflicted during the migration, from nest building, and from fighting.  If steelhead died from the first bleeding wound, there wouldn’t be very many steelhead around. It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

I just finished reading,      EVEN BROOK TROUT GET THE BLUES  by John Gierach.  I have to say,  this was one trite, anal, "matter-of-fact-" piece of literature. The amount of contradictions makes me laugh my ass off.  Here is an example: Mr. Gierach goes on and on and on about the virtues of wild game food, and how it is so good for you.  He also claims it is superior to store bought food.  Here is a quote from that book, page 121, second paragraph: " wild food is GOOD food: low in fat and cholesterol without preservatives, tasty and right there in your hand or landing net free for the taking. Putting too much distance between yourself and this obvious reality is not productive" Then, on page 122, 3rd paragraph:  " the battered fillets are deep fried in oil. Peanut oil is best, but vegetable oil will do." Hilarious!  Not only is the batter    on the fish full of preservatives, but he is basically drowning his   "low fat, cholesterol free food"   in tons of fat and grease.  Nice one Mr. Gierach!   Next time you preach to the guilty about the wonders of wild game food, make sure you try not to COMPLETELY smother out the taste AND benefits of that food by deep frying it. What a joke. I laugh at these "wild food enthusiasts"  who claim  to love the food, yet try to completely hide any of the original flavor of the fish or meat by frying or saucing the hell out of it. Many of the things Gierach does are silly.   He is so anal and "matter- of-fact"  concerning so many issues one must wonder if this guy ever gets away from his set crowd.  It’s clear he is lacking in any kind of cultural development.   His  "simplistic" life philosophy is marred and gouged by so many incosistencies a beginner fly caster could put loops through them. Occasionaly Gierach starts heading in a good direction, but his aformentioned problems quickly swallow  up whatever interesting course he was trying to follow. Another thing, is the guy is plainly an alcoholic.  Now, we all know Traver was as well, but at LEAST Traver was a good writer. There’s nothing more annoying than an alcoholic who is still drinking.  His whole philosophy  is probably the end result of that, full of matter-of- fact standoff-ishness and "simplistic" stances on life.  I have seen this type. They are a dime a dozen, claiming wild meat so superior, drinking away their days, and spouting the super simplistic lifestyle while contradicting themsleves in EVERY conceivable fashion. boo-hoo  Mr. Gierach.   Where did the Robert Traver’s go? —-Muskie Before you buy.

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gee, he’s always said nice things about you 8<) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just finished reading,      EVEN BROOK TROUT GET THE BLUES  by John Gierach.  I have to say,  this was one trite, anal, "matter-of-fact-" piece of literature. The amount of contradictions makes me laugh my ass off.  Here is an example: Mr. Gierach goes on and on and on about the virtues of wild game food, and how it is so good for you.  He also claims it is superior to store bought food.  Here is a quote from that book, page 121, second paragraph: " wild food is GOOD food: low in fat and cholesterol without preservatives, tasty and right there in your hand or landing net free for the taking. Putting too much distance between yourself and this obvious reality is not productive" Then, on page 122, 3rd paragraph:  " the battered fillets are deep fried in oil. Peanut oil is best, but vegetable oil will do." Hilarious!  Not only is the batter    on the fish full of preservatives, but he is basically drowning his   "low fat, cholesterol free food"   in tons of fat and grease.  Nice one Mr. Gierach!   Next time you preach to the guilty about the wonders of wild game food, make sure you try not to COMPLETELY smother out the taste AND benefits of that food by deep frying it. What a joke. I laugh at these "wild food enthusiasts"  who claim  to love the food, yet try to completely hide any of the original flavor of the fish or meat by frying or saucing the hell out of it. Many of the things Gierach does are silly.   He is so anal and "matter- of-fact"  concerning so many issues one must wonder if this guy ever gets away from his set crowd.  It’s clear he is lacking in any kind of cultural development.   His  "simplistic" life philosophy is marred and gouged by so many incosistencies a beginner fly caster could put loops through them. Occasionaly Gierach starts heading in a good direction, but his aformentioned problems quickly swallow  up whatever interesting course he was trying to follow. Another thing, is the guy is plainly an alcoholic.  Now, we all know Traver was as well, but at LEAST Traver was a good writer. There’s nothing more annoying than an alcoholic who is still drinking.  His whole philosophy  is probably the end result of that, full of matter-of- fact standoff-ishness and "simplistic" stances on life.  I have seen this type. They are a dime a dozen, claiming wild meat so superior, drinking away their days, and spouting the super simplistic lifestyle while contradicting themsleves in EVERY conceivable fashion. boo-hoo  Mr. Gierach.   Where did the Robert Traver’s go? —-Muskie Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just finished reading,      EVEN BROOK TROUT GET THE BLUES  by John Gierach.  I have to say,  this was one trite, anal, "matter-of-fact-" piece of literature. The amount of contradictions makes me laugh my ass off.  Here is an example: Mr. Gierach goes on and on and on about the virtues of wild game food, and how it is so good for you.  He also claims it is superior to store bought food.  Here is a quote from that book, page 121, second paragraph: " wild food is GOOD food: low in fat and cholesterol without preservatives, tasty and right there in your hand or landing net free for the taking. Putting too much distance between yourself and this obvious reality is not productive" Then, on page 122, 3rd paragraph:  " the battered fillets are deep fried in oil. Peanut oil is best, but vegetable oil will do." Hilarious!  Not only is the batter    on the fish full of preservatives, but he is basically drowning his   "low fat, cholesterol free food"   in tons of fat and grease.  Nice one Mr. Gierach!   Next time you preach to the guilty about the wonders of wild game food, make sure you try not to COMPLETELY smother out the taste AND benefits of that food by deep frying it. What a joke. I laugh at these "wild food enthusiasts"  who claim  to love the food, yet try to completely hide any of the original flavor of the fish or meat by frying or saucing the hell out of it. Many of the things Gierach does are silly.   He is so anal and "matter- of-fact"  concerning so many issues one must wonder if this guy ever gets away from his set crowd.  It’s clear he is lacking in any kind of cultural development.   His  "simplistic" life philosophy is marred and gouged by so many incosistencies a beginner fly caster could put loops through them. Occasionaly Gierach starts heading in a good direction, but his aformentioned problems quickly swallow  up whatever interesting course he was trying to follow. Another thing, is the guy is plainly an alcoholic.  Now, we all know Traver was as well, but at LEAST Traver was a good writer. There’s nothing more annoying than an alcoholic who is still drinking.  His whole philosophy  is probably the end result of that, full of matter- of- fact standoff-ishness and "simplistic" stances on life.  I have seen this type. They are a dime a dozen, claiming wild meat so superior, drinking away their days, and spouting the super simplistic lifestyle while contradicting themsleves in EVERY conceivable fashion. boo-hoo  Mr. Gierach.   Where did the Robert Traver’s go? —-Muskie

 Muskie, if you deep fry something at the correct temperature the out side is seared shut almost instantly. The heat of the oil then cooks the food. If then drained on paper towels you’re not really eating food "drowned" in oil. Remember the old Wesson oil commercial with the loaf of bread ? Gierach has admitted he’s an alcoholic in print, stating in a recent book that he had to quit drinking several years ago. I don’t see the contradictions you speak of represented in his writings in such massive amounts. Sure, a few here and there but the guy’s human. I enjoy him for the most part. It sounds almost like he’s done something personal to you. Bob Before you buy.

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…a "recovered" alcoholic can be MUCH more annoying.

I’ll drink to THAT!

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Peanut oil is great stuff!! Use it once and you will never go back to canola or corn oil. Gierach is a great writer. He’s probably a great cook too.

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The amount of contradictions makes me laugh my ass off. Many of the things Gierach does are silly. It’s clear he is lacking in any kind of cultural development. …so many incosistencies a beginner fly caster could put loops through them. Occasionaly Gierach starts heading in a good direction, but his aformentioned problems…

You sure do a lot of talking about his "many" problems, but you only mentioned 2.  And of those, only one was pertinent to your "book review".  (Alcoholism is not the point – how he writes is the point.) So.. you’ll either have to provide more or be considered an exaggerater. Regards, Jeff

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LOL!  that was a good one It’s easy enough to see if you look closely: "PEA…NUT oil" observer unfamiliar with the phrase dipping the old fillet into the oil).

Regards, Jeff

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Wolfgang Yeah, I got the same sense of his post. Like he is calling out for Gierach, expressing a deep groinial need to dis what he really desires. Its kind of like when Roadrunner is off the set eating a donut, and you see that empty stare of the truely lonely, beyond the kleig lights, past the makeup, you just know that a hug from the Key Grip, or maybe the Folli guy is what the ole runmiester could use. Dave Points of lite man, points of lite.

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 Nope.     Alot of the oil and fat stick around.  Thats what makes the cooki-crumbly apsect of the batter.    You are still getting more fat and cholesterol by  deep frying. This is no better than cow-steaks or bacon.

Mmmmmm…Cow-steaks and bacon….

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 Nope.     Alot of the oil and fat stick around.  Thats what makes the cooki-crumbly apsect of the batter.    You are still getting more fat and cholesterol by  deep frying. This is no better than cow-steaks or bacon. Mmmmmm…Cow-steaks and bacon….

And donuts… — Charlie…

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 \  Muskie, if you deep fry something at the correct temperature the out side is seared shut almost instantly. The heat of the oil then cooks the food. If then drained on paper towels you’re not really eating food "drowned" in oil. Remember the old Wesson oil commercial with the loaf of bread ?\   Nope.     Alot of the oil and fat stick around.  Thats what makes the cooki-crumbly apsect of the batter.    You are still getting more fat and cholesterol by  deep frying.

really?!?!?, frying means more fat? yep, all fish should be baked, steamed, or boiled… with no seasonings… if you don’t like it like that then you shouldn’t eat fish <G. This is no better than cow-steaks or bacon.

whoever invented bacon should get a nobel prize for good taste. chris

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 Lol.  Let’s find the hidden meaning in Wolfgangs post: Don’t let it get to you Joe.  Poor Muskie’s post is actually a cry for help. OBVIOUSLY he’s got the hots for Gierach and he doesn’t quite know how to deal with his feelings. It’s easy enough to see if you look closely:

  (This one might escape the casual observer unfamiliar with the phrase dipping the old fillet into the

oil).   It’s kind of sad really, but there’s not much we can do about it. I’m afraid we’ll just have to let old Muskie work through this on his own.

" We’ll…just…have…to…gang….dipping….it" "let….this….easy….old….fillet..get..to..you" " Im ….afraid…..got…hots…Geirach" " sad…feelings…obviously..work….." -Muskie Before you buy.

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That was a pretty lame comeback,Muskie.Wolfie got you pretty good and I guess you’ll just have to take it like a man.(oops don’t quote me on that.)Serves you right for disrespecting Gierach.People don’t buy his books just to get information about cooking game or for flyfishing tips,( he is continuously disavowing his own expertise),he’s just a good writer period.Their aren’t many out there.I can barely get halfway through most of the flyfishing magazine articles I read because they are so full of cliches.

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You are still getting more fat and cholesterol by  deep frying. really?!?!?, frying means more fat?

Well, what do you think it’s deep IN? Regards, Jeff

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"let….this….easy….old….fillet..get..to..you"

Wow, so really…. Wolfgang and Muskie have a thing going?  I’m getting confused now… Maybe Wolfgang is Muskie’s father… "Search your feelings Muskie, you know it to be true."   "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" Regards, Jeff

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<snip Que?

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\ That was a pretty lame comeback,Muskie.Wolfie got you pretty good and I guess you’ll just have to take it like a man.\

Hey I laughed at his post. \.Their aren’t many out there.I can barely get halfway through most of the flyfishing magazine articles I read because they are so full of cliches.\

  Chock full. —-Muskie Before you buy.

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 \  Muskie, if you deep fry something at the correct temperature the out side is seared shut almost instantly. The heat of the oil then cooks the food. If then drained on paper towels you’re not really eating food "drowned" in oil. Remember the old Wesson oil commercial with the loaf of bread ?\

  Nope.     Alot of the oil and fat stick around.  Thats what makes the cooki-crumbly apsect of the batter.    You are still getting more fat and cholesterol by  deep frying. This is no better than cow-steaks or bacon.   \ Gierach has admitted he’s an alcoholic in print, stating in a recent book that he had to quit drinking several years ago.\

No kidding. I didn’t know that. His alcoholism was just so apparent to me  from reading EVEN BROOK TROUT GET THE BLUES. \ I don’t see the contradictions you speak of represented in his writings in such massive amounts. Sure, a few here and there but the guy’s human. I enjoy him for the most part. It sounds almost like he’s done something personal to you.\

He has. He wasted my time. —Muskie Before you buy.

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[snipped] OT: There was one time when this sort of literary license bugged the shit out of me.   My wife insisted on seeing the movie "Message in a Bottle" (criminy, what a chick movie).   It was supposed to be set in North Carolina, but was so obviously filmed in New England that I cringed everytime there was a waterfront scene.   It ruined any chance I had (damned little) of enjoying the movie.

Hmm? I thought it was supposed to be set in Massachusetts, but they filmed it in Maine to get away from the Boston Teamsters… While I’m here – I disagree with Muskie’s "There’s nothing more annoying than an alcoholic who is still drinking." Au contraire: a "recovered" alcoholic can be MUCH more annoying. /daytripper (neither current nor recovered, thanks ;^)

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 Nope.     Alot of the oil and fat stick around.  Thats what makes the cooki-crumbly apsect of the batter.    You are still getting more fat and cholesterol by  deep frying. This is no better than cow-steaks or bacon. Mmmmmm…Cow-steaks and bacon…. And donuts… —

Mmmmmm donuts; and beer!  Sweet beautiful beer!

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Oh the hell with it.   I was going to write a thoughtful response; but f*ck that cros-posted troll bullshit.

Don’t let it get to you Joe.  Poor Muskie’s post is actually a cry for help. OBVIOUSLY he’s got the hots for Gierach and he doesn’t quite know how to deal with his feelings. It’s easy enough to see if you look closely: "PEA…NUT oil" observer unfamiliar with the phrase dipping the old fillet into the oil). It’s kind of sad really, but there’s not much we can do about it.  I’m afraid we’ll just have to let old Muskie work through this on his own.

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I just finished reading,      EVEN BROOK TROUT GET THE BLUES  by John Gierach.  I have to say,  this was one trite, anal, "matter-of-fact-" piece of literature. (snip) boo-hoo  Mr. Gierach.   Where did the Robert Traver’s go?

        having read your effort at literary criticism, i am convinced that they did not go into the gierach dissing business.         wayno

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I just finished reading,      EVEN BROOK TROUT GET THE BLUES  by John Gierach.  I have to say,  this was one trite, anal, "matter-of-fact-" piece of literature. (snip) boo-hoo  Mr. Gierach.   Where did the Robert Traver’s go?    having read your effort at literary criticism, i am convinced that they did not go into the gierach dissing business.

Ask not for whom the troll posts… — Charlie…

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Ask not for whom the troll posts… — Charlie…

That’s baaad, ten lashes with a sinktip for that one. Peter

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Oh the hell with it.   I was going to write a thoughtful response; but f*ck that cros-posted troll bullshit. I read Gierach.   I enjoy his stories.   I don’t give a rat’s ass how he cooks his food.   Since when are fishing tales supposed to be a paragon (zenith?) of accuracy?   (Damn. Where’s my Webster’s?)   Christ, what’d he do to you, boink your grandma? OT: There was one time when this sort of literary license bugged the shit out of me.   My wife insisted on seeing the movie "Message in a Bottle" (criminy, what a chick movie).   It was supposed to be set in North Carolina, but was so obviously filmed in New England that I cringed everytime there was a waterfront scene.   It ruined any chance I had (damned little) of enjoying the movie. Joe F. Joe F.

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Question:

0] hot-damn…. i made a form! shoot, i’ll be insufferable tomorrow astream

Come now, don’t sell yourself short, you’re insufferable now online. ,      - Ken

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 0] : I found this form on another NG, and thought perhaps it might be of vague : interest. : TL : MC : — : : …. Mike You must have missed the one I cooked up and posted last year. Some of it’s a bit dated now, but a lot of it still applies You’re right Mike, I had forgotten this form but it would still work today.  Some would be insulted, however, at not being included in the identity checklist. Mark Faulkner

_____  I should feel slighted Mark.  ; ) Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

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hot-damn…. i made a form! shoot, i’ll be insufferable tomorrow astream waldo

well, guess i’ll be returning the curtains and fixing the flat tomorrow then <G jeff (sufferin from the insufferable)

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0]

hot-damn…. i made a form! shoot, i’ll be insufferable tomorrow astream waldo

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 0] : I found this form on another NG, and thought perhaps it might be of vague : interest. : TL : MC : — : : …. Mike You must have missed the one I cooked up and posted last year. Some of it’s a bit dated now, but a lot of it still applies

You’re right Mike, I had forgotten this form but it would still work today.  Some would be insulted, however, at not being included in the identity checklist. Mark Faulkner

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 0] : I found this form on another NG, and thought perhaps it might be of vague : interest. : TL : MC : — : "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the : impossible" : http://www.mikeconnor.de : : …. Mike You must have missed the one I cooked up and posted last year. Some of it’s a bit dated now, but a lot of it still applies  General Purpose rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Flame Form–Check All That Apply  Dear   [X] George            [ ] Wayne         [ ] Dave          [ ] Mike   [ ] T-bone            [ ] Ralph         [ ] Ken           [ ] Walt   [ ] Tony              [ ] Ernie         [X ] Poet          [ ] …   [X ] ROFFian           [X ] Dry Flyfisher [X ] Flyfisher     [ ] Beadhead User   [X ] NON-Indicator User    [ ] Spinfisher    [ ] Bait Chucker  [ ] Cutter of Bait   [ ] Uninformed Newbie [ ] Spammer       [ ] Republican    [ ] Democrat   [X ] Capitalist        [ ] Socialist     [ ] Despoiler of Rivers   [ ] PETA Member/AR Crank  You are being flamed with torch set on   [X ] Gentle Warm(n)ing [ ] Threshold of Pain [ ] Pyrolize [ ] Thermonuclear   because   [ ] Concerning the thread on         [X ] C&R [ ] Indicators [ ] Beadheads  [ ] Impeachment [ ] Tree Spiking       you                 [ ] started it      [ ] posted to it                 [X ] are for it      [ ] are against it                 [ ] have no opinion on it   [X ] you use Gink and Xink   [ ] you don’t use Gink and Xink   [ ] you’ve never heard of Gink and Xink   [ ] you flamed George       [X ] for advising of the availability and usefulness of Gink and Xink       [X ] for well considered reasonable opinions   [ ] you flamed George      [ ] for spamming on Gink and Xink      [X ] for outrageous crazy opinions   [ ] you defended George      [ ] for spamming on Gink and Xink      [X ] for outrageous crazy opinions   [ ] you defended George      [ ] for advising us of the availability and usefulness of Gink and Xink      [X ] for well considered reasonable opinions   [X ] you should order a Lil’ Bastard   [ ] you haven’t yet ordered a Lil’ Bastard   [ ] you are coming to the ‘clave   [X ] you are not coming to the ‘clave   [X ] you are not supplying your share of Famous Grouse for the ‘clave   [ ] Concerning a reasonable question on flyfishing         [ ] you asked it         [X ] you answered it well         [ ] you gave an unhelpful answer/made a snide remark   [ ] you dylsexic, did you even read what I wrote?   [ ] you advocated having a moderator for ROFF   [ ] you are against having a moderator for ROFF   [X ] you shouted FISH LOVE ME!   [ ] you posted HTML or binary   [ ] you spammed us   [ ] you posted an anonymous attack Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491

Mike! Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

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I found this form on another NG, and thought perhaps it might be of vague interest.

<snip Yep. That would be the Standard Phoenix LART Form, popularized by Phoenix of news.admin.net-abuse.email.   A most dangerous item, to be handled with the greatest of care. You never quite know when they’ll go off. Opt out == cop-out. What’s so hard to understand?

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I think C&K is better than C&R. Everybody knows that cattle ranchers are all environment-polluting welfare queens who are probably all in militias. Weighted nymphs are the only way to go. #12 wasn’t such a bad rod after all. And BTW, what’s the best floatant? Opt out == cop-out. What’s so hard to understand?

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….. #12 wasn’t such a bad rod after all.

You were doing so well till the slip up with the past tense.  At last report, old #12 was once again corporeal and winging on its happy way to another satisfied customer.

Response:

0] : I found this form on another NG, and thought perhaps it might be of vague : interest. : TL : MC : — : "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the : impossible" : http://www.mikeconnor.de : : …. Mike You must have missed the one I cooked up and posted last year. Some of it’s a bit dated now, but a lot of it still applies  General Purpose rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Flame Form–Check All That Apply  Dear   [ ] George            [ ] Wayne         [ ] Dave          [ ] Mike   [ ] T-bone            [ ] Ralph         [ ] Ken           [ ] Walt   [ ] Tony              [ ] Ernie         [ ] Poet          [ ] …   [ ] ROFFian           [ ] Dry Flyfisher [ ] Flyfisher     [ ] Beadhead User   [ ] Indicator User    [ ] Spinfisher    [ ] Bait Chucker  [ ] Cutter of Bait   [ ] Uninformed Newbie [ ] Spammer       [ ] Republican    [ ] Democrat   [ ] Capitalist        [ ] Socialist     [ ] Despoiler of Rivers   [ ] PETA Member/AR Crank  You are being flamed with torch set on   [ ] Gentle Warm(n)ing [ ] Threshold of Pain [ ] Pyrolize [ ] Thermonuclear   because   [ ] Concerning the thread on         [ ] C&R [ ] Indicators [ ] Beadheads  [ ] Impeachment [ ] Tree Spiking       you                 [ ] started it      [ ] posted to it                           [ ] are for it      [ ] are against it                   [ ] have no opinion on it   [ ] you use Gink and Xink   [ ] you don’t use Gink and Xink   [ ] you’ve never heard of Gink and Xink   [ ] you flamed George       [ ] for advising us of the availability and usefulness of Gink and Xink       [ ] for well considered reasonable opinions   [ ] you flamed George      [ ] for spamming on Gink and Xink      [ ] for outrageous crazy opinions   [ ] you defended George      [ ] for spamming on Gink and Xink      [ ] for outrageous crazy opinions   [ ] you defended George      [ ] for advising us of the availability and usefulness of Gink and Xink      [ ] for well considered reasonable opinions   [ ] you have ordered a Lil’ Bastard   [ ] you haven’t yet ordered a Lil’ Bastard   [ ] you are coming to the ‘clave   [ ] you are not coming to the ‘clave   [ ] you are not supplying your share of Famous Grouse for the ‘clave   [ ] Concerning a reasonable question on flyfishing         [ ] you asked it           [ ] you answered it well         [ ] you gave an unhelpful answer/made a snide remark   [ ] you dylsexic, did you even read what I wrote?   [ ] you advocated having a moderator for ROFF   [ ] you are against having a moderator for ROFF   [ ] you shouted (USED ALL CAPS!!!)   [ ] you posted HTML or binary   [ ] you spammed us   [ ] you posted an anonymous attack Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

Hey you bunch of low-life assholes, even if you don’t know anything about fly-fishing or morals and are stupid anyway I would like to do you all a favour. snip<

Well, let me set you straight on a couple points……   Oh wait.   This is a contest entry isn’t it?  Oops, I didn’t notice at first.  <g Joe F.

Response:

Hi Wolfgang, please send my thirty marks, (or ten dollars will do), to Louies Breakfast BVD fund, this is a recognised charity, and is designed to prevent serious psychological damage to clave attendees. TL MC– "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Mike Connor drivels: Hi Wolfgang, please send my thirty marks, (or ten dollars will do), to Louies Breakfast BVD fund, this is a recognised charity, and is designed to prevent serious psychological damage to clave attendees.

Harumphhhhhh!  Ingrates!!!!! (But send the money, Wolfie!)  d;0) Dave L. (Louie’s alter ego)…

Response:

Hey you bunch of low-life assholes, even if you don’t know anything about fly-fishing or morals and are stupid anyway I would like to do you all a favour.

[deleted] You gonna tell us how to tip a sparse hackled #16 paraleptaphlebia spinner with half a red wriggler ? — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Hey you bunch of low-life assholes, even if you don’t know anything about fly-fishing or morals and are stupid anyway I would like to do you all a favour. I have a self-made unique cane rod for sale, with the serial # 1234, which I built after three days intensive study of the available material. It is perfect. I am selling this on e-bay, and in order to give all the idiots out there at least a chance of this once in a lifetime offer I have crossposted this to one hundred and twenty other news groups.  First bid over ten thousand dollars gets it. If there are several bids it will be raffled, no low-lifes will be considered, unless they pay in advance, tickets cost twelve thousand dollars. As a special offer you can visit my website for nothing and talk about any personal problems you may have. This website is a public service, so don’t waste my time talking about fishing on it. I also tie perfect flies, but I am not selling any to low-lifes, so get lost, tie your own, you might even catch something on them even if they are shit, and will probably murder the fish as well. Please note all my business is conducted on this or other news groups, so that none of you lying SOB

Question:

Has anybody herd of a train derailment / diesel spill on Cayuga Inlet South of Ithaca NY ?  If so can you post the details. tnx

Response:

I was fishing in Ithaca in November and signs were posted by the DEC all along the Cayuga Inlet  forbidding fishing until further notice due to diesel fuel contamination.

Response:

I was fishing in Ithaca in November and signs were posted by the DEC all along the Cayuga Inlet  forbidding fishing until further notice due to diesel fuel contamination.

I had an article on the spill from the Syracuse Herald (?) on my site about three weeks ago.  I don’t know if the story is still up on their site, but I know my link is still up.  Check the Fishing News section, http://www.geocities.com/Baja/3297/fishing.htm Mark Cahill’s Fishing New England – Daily Fishing News Also, a deja news search may turn up a post in this group at about the same time.  I forget who posted it, but he had fairly good detail on the spill. As I recall he reported a whole bunch of floating trout. — Mark Cahill For E-mail remove the _Remove_This from the reply to address. http://www.geocities.com/Baja/3297/fishing.htm Mark Cahill’s Fishing New England – Daily Fishing News http://www.reel-time.com/ The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing – Metropolitan Boston Regional Editor

Response:

******* I was fishing in Ithaca in November and signs were posted by the DEC all along the Cayuga Inlet  forbidding fishing until further notice due to diesel fuel contamination. In a situation like this, is fishing forbidden or just keeping and eating? Why? William Buchman

Response:

Question:

I just wanted to pass on this information. I posted here about two weeks ago that I was selling a Bantam Curado reel and received an e-mail from a man by the name of Warren Hansen.  He claimed that he was interested and made me a good offer to buy the reel.  He suggested that we agree on a day, and send the payment check and reel in the mail.  I was wary of this because I didn’t know if I could trust him.  When I e-mailed him saying I would send it C.O.D. thru UPS so that he couldn’t get the reel until he paid, I never heard back from him.  I can only assume that he had no intention of paying me since he bailed out as soon as I suggest a method thatwould force him to pay me.  Just letting you know in case this guy is doing this to other people.

   I’d be reluctant to slander the guy based on the scenario you’ve presented. I wouldn’t go for a UPS COD deal either. No one is home to receive and pay for the merchandise. When I’ve bought/sold stuff on the net the technique was to send the merchandise on receipt of a check or MO. In that case the buyer is at risk, but I’ve never had any problems. — Charlie   Newark, DE To reply by email please remove antispam "TY" from address.

Response:

snip previous post Good point George, Does anyone know if it’s possible to open the package and check the contents before accepting shipment?  This is still assuming UPS COD as the method of transaction.  Is COD payment always in cash? Leny

As far as UPS goes, you can’t open it until you accept it.  UPS accepts checks. — Mark Cahill For E-mail remove the _Remove_This from the reply to address. http://www.geocities.com/Baja/3297/fishing.htm Mark Cahill’s Fishing New Engand -Daily Fishing News http://www.reel-time.com/ The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing – Metropolitan Boston Regional Editor

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You were right to be wary. Never do business where the transaction can be costly to you. You made a very good suggestion on how to do it right. However, you should have posted a message describing what happened, leaving out the name. Informing others is useful but wrongly accusing (a suspect he certainly is) an individual is not.                         Cal– ****To reply e-mail remove the "_Remove_This " from the return address. ***** There is always free cheese in a mousetrap.

Nope…still a potential problem.  You are assuming that the seller really has something to sell.  UPS could show up (with a box full of rocks) and collect my cash…then who got cheated?  A con could work either way. Actually, in the original post, there was another unsubstantiated (how’s that for an engineer?) allegation: "He’s doing this to others." (paraphrased).  How does Noah know that? Just a little fodder for thought. George B.

Response:

Please refrain from using profanity to get your point across.  Children read these postings.

Please be advised. If kids are anywhere near the usenet there are far worse things then swear words.  alt.fishing is mighty close to alt.f***ing in my news group list. I have not set up my account on my home system for this very reason.   TimW

Response:

Nope…still a potential problem.  You are assuming that the seller really has something to sell.  UPS could show up (with a box full of rocks) and collect my cash…then who got cheated?  A con could work either way. ……snip……. George B.

Good point George, Does anyone know if it’s possible to open the package and check the contents before accepting shipment?  This is still assuming UPS COD as the method of transaction.  Is COD payment always in cash? Leny

Response:

What is the new group?  Is there a rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.vulgar? -Mark Vinsel In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you can’t stand this….then don’t read any of the posting in the New group!!!      And I bet you are encouraging your kids to use vulgarity all the time IF YOU ARE EVER IN DOUBT…….CALL SOMEONE CLOSE TO YOU     Steve, Please refrain from using profanity to get your point across.  Children read these postings. Neil McNerney yeah, so if you keep it clean here odds are that they will never hear that kind of talk.

–   new web address:  http://www.vinsel.com

Response:

: Please refrain from using profanity to get your point across.  Children : read these postings. No shit.

Response:

Please refrain from using profanity to get your point across.  Children read these postings. Please be advised. If kids are anywhere near the usenet there are far worse things then swear words.  alt.fishing is mighty close to alt.f***ing in my news group list. TimW

This whole issue of profanity is not to protect the children from learning words they’re going to learn anyway it’s a matter of decency and setting an example.   The more examples children see, especially of those they look up to, the more they are going to repeat the behavior in the examples. They WILL learn those words.  Their behavior with regard to those words will be taught by us. Set a good example. gamma Daniels                                    / /                                   ((o o))                            —oOOo-(Y)<-oOOo— University Computing Services   <`)))<      <`)))<  71533,1011 University of Southern California      <`)))<      <`)))< I love the smell of baitfish in the morning.  Smells like… Saturday!!

Response:

Being of Irish extraction ( 1/2 by blood), I can peel wallpaper with a good cussing but this is not the place for it. — Michael J Barnett

Response:

   ,())))),  ,()))))))),.      huh, huh, huh, huh                       ,—,,,_  ()))))))//((     Hey, Beavis, the guy                    (         )) (\( ))( (/)     said there shouldn’t                   (            ) /(          \     be any cussing on this                 (            ) //       _       newsgroup.                             (_(_((((     ) //    /       /                                         (    ,    )   (.  .      /                                          |   /   )   ) (,     |    ,)                         Yeah. heh, heh.     | /    (   )     ^/^   /                          Well, I don’t       (.(.)    S  )            /                          think there should   /_       )   (-<-) /                           be any sermons    /__)   ^   /      –  /                            in this newsgroup.   /____/    |     __ /                             heh, heh, heh, heh   )______   |      |  |                                                           |  (          )                                                  (          )  |_|AC//DC|_|                                                  |_| MTV  |_|  | |      | |                                                  | |      | |

Response:

You were right to be wary. Never do business where the transaction can be costly to you. You made a very good suggestion on how to do it right. However, you should have posted a message describing what happened, leaving out the name. Informing others is useful but wrongly accusing (a suspect he certainly is) an individual is not.                         Cal– ****To reply e-mail remove the "_Remove_This " from the return address. ***** There is always free cheese in a mousetrap.

Response:

If you can’t stand this….then don’t read any of the posting in the New group!!!      And I bet you are encouraging your kids to use vulgarity all the time IF YOU ARE EVER IN DOUBT…….CALL SOMEONE CLOSE TO YOU     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, Please refrain from using profanity to get your point across.  Children read these postings. Neil McNerney yeah, so if you keep it clean here odds are that they will never hear that kind of talk.

Response:

Some people just don’t know any better as that is the way they were brough up and live now. — Kent Prescott  D.A.V. & Mr. Mom  Remove the # before replying. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being of Irish extraction ( 1/2 by blood), I can peel wallpaper with a good cussing but this is not the place for it. — Michael J Barnett

Response:

Please refrain from letting your children read these postings.  Some people use profanity to get their point across.

Profanity is tasteless in newsgroups. Its also a waste of good profanity. Profanity should be saved up for when you lose a good fish. stev — stev_ix_netcom_com is a fake. Sorry, Im tired of all the crap I get in the mail.    

Response:

The scary part is the guy posting with an "EDU" domain has the worst grammar.  Quit reading the news groups and study your freshman English homework. Of course, you could be an engineering student and then we would understand. — Michael J Barnett

Response:

"Mama told me not to come…" Three Dog Night.

Response:

Neil, Please refrain from letting your children read these postings.  Some people use profanity to get their point across.

Yeah, gawddammit! </c

Response:

Profanity is tasteless in newsgroups. Its also a waste of good profanity. Profanity should be saved up for when you lose a good fish. stev

That’s right!!

Response:

Noah- I guess it pays to be a little cautious but my experience has been very different than yours.   I have sold three reels to different people in the past two years.  In each case I insisted on sending them the reel first so they could evaluate and see that it was to their satisfaction. In each case I received a perfectly good check by return mail.   I corresponded with each of these people by e-mail and simply chose to trust the honesty of my fellow man.  I am not saying I would make the same decision in every case.  But after corresponding with each of these people that was the decision I made. It worked out well for me. Michael To reply please remove "nospam" from my address. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just wanted to pass on this information. I posted here about two weeks ago that I was selling a Bantam Curado reel and received an e-mail from a man by the name of Warren Hansen.  He claimed that he was interested and made me a good offer to buy the reel.  He suggested that we agree on a day, and send the payment check and reel in the mail.  I was wary of this because I didn’t know if I could trust him.  When I e-mailed him saying I would send it C.O.D. thru UPS so that he couldn’t get the reel until he paid, I never heard back from him.  I can only assume that he had no intention of paying me since he bailed out as soon as I suggest a method thatwould force him to pay me.  Just letting you know in case this guy is doing this to other people.                                                         -Noah Rollins                                                          http://grove.ufl.edu/~noahr                              "Should we, or should we not,                        follow the advice of the galactically stupid?"                           -Tom Cruise, "A Few Good Men"

Response:

Steve, Please refrain from using profanity to get your point across.  Children read these postings. Neil McNerney

yeah, so if you keep it clean here odds are that they will never hear that kind of talk.

Response:

You are a little, little man. Noah. People back out on deals all the time — a shame, but that’s doing business on the internet. He did not cheat you. You did not lose your reel….Why slander someone senselessly? For all you know, the poor SOB is in a hospital, after a car wreck, and it’s just taking him a long time to reply to your COD arrangement, since he’s having to type with a golf-pencil taped to his fucking TONGUE!

 Uh, Steve… I think maybe you are getting a little carried away here. Noah was just trying to help.  Maybe you should lay off the Mountain Dew??

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : ….. I can only assume that he had no : intention of paying me since he bailed out as soon as I suggest a method : thatwould force him to pay me.  Just letting you know in case this guy is : doing this to other people. You are a little, little man. Noah. People back out on deals all the time — a shame, but that’s doing business on the internet. He did not cheat you. You did not lose your reel….Why slander someone senselessly? For all you know, the poor SOB is in a hospital, after a car wreck, and it’s just taking him a long time to reply to your COD arrangement, since he’s having to type with a golf-pencil taped to his fucking TONGUE!

Steve, Please refrain from using profanity to get your point across.  Children read these postings. Neil McNerney

Response:

  Please refrain from using profanity to get your point across.  Children   read these postings.   Neil McNerney

Neil, Please refrain from letting your children read these postings.  Some people use profanity to get their point across. -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html email: replace the "this_address_is_wrong" with "tgades"

Response:

I just wanted to pass on this information. I posted here about two weeks ago that I was selling a Bantam Curado reel and received an e-mail from a man by the name of Warren Hansen.  He claimed that he was interested and made me a good offer to buy the reel.  He suggested that we agree on a day, and send the payment check and reel in the mail.  I was wary of this because I didn’t know if I could trust him.  When I e-mailed him saying I would send it C.O.D. thru UPS so that he couldn’t get the reel until he paid, I never heard back from him.  I can only assume that he had no intention of paying me since he bailed out as soon as I suggest a method thatwould force him to pay me.  Just letting you know in case this guy is doing this to other people.                                                         -Noah Rollins                                                          http://grove.ufl.edu/~noahr                              "Should we, or should we not,                        follow the advice of the galactically stupid?"                           -Tom Cruise, "A Few Good Men"

Response:

: ….. I can only assume that he had no : intention of paying me since he bailed out as soon as I suggest a method : thatwould force him to pay me.  Just letting you know in case this guy is : doing this to other people. You are a little, little man. Noah. People back out on deals all the time — a shame, but that’s doing business on the internet. He did not cheat you. You did not lose your reel….Why slander someone senselessly? For all you know, the poor SOB is in a hospital, after a car wreck, and it’s just taking him a long time to reply to your COD arrangement, since he’s having to type with a golf-pencil taped to his fucking TONGUE!

Response:

Question:

My son caught a Crappie last weekend that was 15 inches long and had a 5 1/2 inch girth.  Does anyone know how to approximate the weight using the length and girth?

Response:

Hi-    Go to  http://www.flyline.com  and click on "tips and techniques". That will take you to a girth/length/weight table. It was designed for trout but will be close enough for crappie.    -Ralph My son caught a Crappie last weekend that was 15 inches long and had a 5 1/2 inch girth.  Does anyone know how to approximate the weight using the length and girth?

Ralph Cutter, California School of Flyfishing. http://www.flyline.com

Response:

My son caught a Crappie last weekend that was 15 inches long and had a 5 1/2 inch girth.  Does anyone know how to approximate the weight using the length and girth?

Hi, I have seen a few Crappie that big when I worked in a bait-n-tackle shop. A friend of mine caught one that big and had it mounted. It is a beautiful trophy. Where did you catch it? Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

My son caught a Crappie last weekend that was 15 inches long and had a 5 1/2 inch girth.  Does anyone know how to approximate the weight using the length and girth?

That is one skinny crappie.  Did you know that girth is the measurement around the body at the widest point. I think you took the width so you’ll have to estimate for girth. Your son caught a Lucy – no need for further definition! This formula was posted here a few years ago.  Length x (girth in inches squared) divided by 800=weight in pounds. i.e.  20 inch trout with 10 inch girth would figure out to 2000/ 800=2 1/2 pounds and so on. Mark Vinsel — http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

Response:

My son caught a Crappie last weekend that was 15 inches long and had a 5 1/2 inch girth.  Does anyone know how to approximate the weight using the length and girth? Hi, I have seen a few Crappie that big when I worked in a bait-n-tackle shop. A friend of mine caught one that big and had it mounted. It is a beautiful trophy. Where did you catch it? Bill Kiene

I have caught crappie this size and larger here in NC. (Jordan Lake, and Sharon Harris)   On Sunday I caught a 18" Crappie that weighed 1lb 12oz in Shelley Lake in Raleigh. Brian

Response:

this is the formula you mutiply the girth by itself then mutiply that figure by the length then divide that figure by 800 and you have the weight. example 5.5 x 5.5=30.25 then multiply 30.25 by the length 30.25×15=453.75 then divide that by 800  =.56 lbs this formula works with most saltwater fish.and it should work with freshwater fish also.

Response:

Question:

BTW, this IS a coed event, right?

Only with your cousin<g. Charlie…

Response:

ANNOUNCEMENT ! We are tremendously pleased to announce the First annual Western Colorado Strip Flyfishing Competition to be held May 26th and 27th 1997 in the Roaring Fork Valley of Colorado.  All Flyfishers from around the world are invited to participate.

Yikes! This could reveal a little more than who can catch trout! We may have to arrange a similar tourny here in the SouthEast…not sure we could now that I think about it…bein’ in the Bible Belt an’ all… As another FFer mentioned, Lewis Grizzard had a definition fer Nekkid…can’t…or more truthfully…don’t want to imagine too many ROFF contributors engaged in such activity….[shudder] ;-D BTW, this IS a coed event, right? — John Carney          Fly Fisher & Parrot Head (NO-SPAM in address to avoid spamming)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ANNOUNCEMENT ! snip 5) An angler can continue fishing with his last fly while buck naked, but once the 6th fly is gone, the angler must cease fishing and report back to the weigh in area (Glenwood Canyon Brewpub). snip Some strategies and suggestions: ….wear one pair of boot foot chest waders and 5 pair of underwear. ….stock up on the 2X ….relax until late afternoon and fish the rise with dries ….fish streamers along the bank if it’s warm and the sun is out ….put down a life vest before sitting on a sunny aluminum seat ….do not look directly at Lefty when he is nekkid as permanent eye     and psycological damage may result. Hope to see *all* of you there…. Tim,   You know what Lewis Grizzard said about the word, nekkid (spelled, N E double-K by-God I D). It makes you feel good just to say it.   BTW, what’s the entry fee?

only courage… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

<snip I sense my heretofore unyielding disgust with tournaments rapidly fading away, being replaced by an unexpected and somewhat frightening

Lefty? Surely you jest…. Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com "I’m the boss, so WHATEVER I say is OK."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ANNOUNCEMENT ! snip 5) An angler can continue fishing with his last fly while buck naked, but once the 6th fly is gone, the angler must cease fishing and report back to the weigh in area (Glenwood Canyon Brewpub). snip Some strategies and suggestions: ….wear one pair of boot foot chest waders and 5 pair of underwear. ….stock up on the 2X ….relax until late afternoon and fish the rise with dries ….fish streamers along the bank if it’s warm and the sun is out ….put down a life vest before sitting on a sunny aluminum seat ….do not look directly at Lefty when he is nekkid as permanent eye     and psycological damage may result. Hope to see *all* of you there….

Tim,   You know what Lewis Grizzard said about the word, nekkid (spelled, N E double-K by-God I D). It makes you feel good just to say it.   BTW, what’s the entry fee?

Response:

ANNOUNCEMENT ! We are tremendously pleased to announce the First annual Western Colorado Strip Flyfishing Competition to be held May 26th and 27th 1997 in the Roaring Fork Valley of Colorado.  All Flyfishers from around the world are invited to participate. The rules: 1) Each angler can select 6 flies and 6 articles of clothing (including waders and wading boots). 2) Anglers are paired off and assigned an objective observer. 3) Anglers fish for big and most fish.  Anglers have the option of measuring and releasing or keeping the fish within the normal regulations. 4) Every time a fly is broken off, an article of clothing must be removed before a new fly can be tied on and fishing can commence. 5) An angler can continue fishing with his last fly while buck naked, but once the 6th fly is gone, the angler must cease fishing and report back to the weigh in area (Glenwood Canyon Brewpub). 6) 5 awards will be presented.   …..Most Fish Award …..Biggest Fish Award …..Little Winky Award …..Funniest Looking When Naked Award …..Most likey to require custom waders Award The purpose of this tournamant is to highten the awareness that all flyfishermen were created equal in the eyes of the creator and to strip away the pretensions created by expensive equipment and conceit and to get down to the bare essence of our sport. Above all, the objective is to have fun and to remind all that flyfishing is only fishing, with or without a fly. Some strategies and suggestions: ….wear one pair of boot foot chest waders and 5 pair of underwear. ….stock up on the 2X ….relax until late afternoon and fish the rise with dries ….fish streamers along the bank if it’s warm and the sun is out ….put down a life vest before sitting on a sunny aluminum seat ….do not look directly at Lefty when he is nekkid as permanent eye     and psycological damage may result. Hope to see *all* of you there…. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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ANNOUNCEMENT ! We are tremendously pleased to announce the First annual Western Colorado Strip Flyfishing Competition to be held May 26th and 27th 1997 in the Roaring Fork Valley of Colorado.  All Flyfishers from around the world are invited to participate.

(snipped) I sense my heretofore unyielding disgust with tournaments rapidly fading away, being replaced by an unexpected and somewhat frightening M.Faulkner

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Question:

An option to try is if you have some strike putty, make a new fly right on the spot. Just put the putty on a small nymph and see what happens. Good luck, Don Pisinski

Response:

An option to try is if you have some strike putty, make a new fly right on the spot. Just put the putty on a small nymph and see what happens.

Especially good if you have some "Dr. Juice Phish Pheromone Trout In Heat" flavored strike putty on hand. TimW (just typing that got me excited…)

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Kinda makes me think I’m going to way too much trouble tying flies.   I was reading something a few weeks ago about a study done underwater in which some percent of "nymphs" were expelled by the fish because they were sticks, rocks, etc. Why not use a small popper instead of a strike indicator? John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS

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As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation?

Tony Route suggested tying up a small bomber pattern in the same colors as the strike indicator, and using that.  Bomber is a spun deer hair piece of work, nothing fancy.  I tied some up, but never used them yet.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation? Yes Pete, I’ve had it happen recently.  I was fishing a nymph on a local stocked stream in Central Massachusetts.  What was hitting mine was small brookies, not the quarry dujour, but trout none the less.  My indicator was yellow, so I switched over to a yellow dry fly.  I had a few hits, but the only yellow fly I had was too big for the 4" brookie’s mouth is only so big.  

Try using strike indicator putty.  Then if they start hitting your strike indicator, you can cover the nymph with the strike putty and away you go Carl carl

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Why not use a small popper instead of a strike indicator? Or a 12 bore shotgun.  Such idiotic fish need eliminating before they

stagnate the gene pool. Bruce

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  <snip Pete It happens alot, especially on stocked streams and in ponds where fish are used to getting fed. However, I have also seen it on wild trout streams. The bobbing action of cork or foam on the surface can sometimes be a deadly attractor. In fact, there are some "flies" that are made from cork alone (no other dressing!) … they work, even on sophisticated wild trout. Why? I wish I knew. Bob Elliott (snip)

Hi, I have seen wild rainbows take some pretty large and gaudy strike indicators on spawning runs. It’s also quite common practice here to fish for browns with a dry fly as an indicator above a nymph. It’s sometimes an even bet as to which one gets taken by the fish. Ken Sims New Zealand

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation? I’ve had tis happen also, and here are my guesses at what is happening. Everyone tells me that drag, and it could be micro drag that you can’t see, accounts for most refusals of dry flies. When you have a sunken nymph below a strike indicator, the line and nymph act like an anchor in the water column, making the strike indicator drift absolutely drag free. The fish go for it. You see that, and tie on a dry fly, with no anchoring nymph and line, so you get micro drag, and the fish don’t strike. Try using a largish dry fly as a strike indicator. Something bushy like a stimulator or large Elk Hair Caddis. Darryl Hayashida

Or a parachute adams with a pink post.  Works great for me Regards, Dick Hubbard

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drag, and the fish don’t strike. Try using a largish dry fly as a strike indicator. Something bushy like a stimulator or large Elk Hair Caddis. Darryl Hayashida Or a parachute adams with a pink post.  Works great for me Regards, Dick Hubbard

Or just thread a hook thru the strike indicator. Not "pure", but effective. Jerry — Jerry Brown Web: http://rampages.onramp.net/~jbrown "When the Huns are at the gate, they ain’t gonna knock…"

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I sometimes have success with a fly called the Serendipity.  It’s   midge pattern with a red or orange thorax.  I like to use Peacock herl for the body with fine silver or copper wire rib.  Drift it in the film or just under the surface. Your milage may vary. Burton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation? Pete It happens alot, especially on stocked streams and in ponds where fish are used to getting fed. However, I have also seen it on wild trout streams. The bobbing action of cork or foam on the surface can sometimes be a deadly attractor. In fact, there are some "flies" that are made from cork alone (no other dressing!) … they work, even on sophisticated wild trout. Why? I wish I knew. Bob Elliott

Instead of strike indicators, I use those braided (Chinese finger vice) line connector devices.  Fishing flats recently on Florida’s Nature Coast, I had redfish hit the connector, It is chartreuse.  I can see it, so I guess fish can too.  It must look like a worm of some type to fish. — Don Jordan POB 2357 Chiefland, FL 32644 http://ripserv.com/indyjones

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I am not one to use strike indicators, largely because it reminds me too much of fishing for catfish as a child. However, I may suggest that you use a floating line and a sinking leader (or leader to which you have applied some sinkant). A combination of sinkant on one and of the line and a clean, floatant-treated line on the other end has worked for me in situations where others might have used strike indicators. Of course, I am also prone to overuse of shims when building, so my solutions are not always the most sound… W.E.S. Harman Virginia Commonwealth University Richmond, Virginia "L’ecrivain original n’est pas celui qui n’imite personne, mais celui que personne ne peut imiter." (The original writer is not he who refrains from imitating others, but he who can be imitated by none.) – Francois-Rene De Chateaubriand,   "Genie du Christianisme" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation? Pete It happens alot, especially on stocked streams and in ponds where fish are used to getting fed. However, I have also seen it on wild trout streams. The bobbing action of cork or foam on the surface can sometimes be a deadly attractor. In fact, there are some "flies" that are made from cork alone (no other dressing!) … they work, even on sophisticated wild trout. Why? I wish I knew. Bob Elliott Instead of strike indicators, I use those braided (Chinese finger vice) line connector devices.  Fishing flats recently on Florida’s Nature Coast, I had redfish hit the connector, It is chartreuse.  I can see it, so I guess fish can too.  It must look like a worm of some type to fish. — Don Jordan POB 2357 Chiefland, FL 32644 http://ripserv.com/indyjones

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I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation? Pete

Yes Pete, I’ve had it happen recently.  I was fishing a nymph on a local stocked stream in Central Massachusetts.  What was hitting mine was small brookies, not the quarry dujour, but trout none the less.  My indicator was yellow, so I switched over to a yellow dry fly.  I had a few hits, but the only yellow fly I had was too big for the 4" brookie’s mouth is only so big.   Maybe the indicators look like the pellets from the hatchery (although I doubt they stocked 4" fish). Isn’t it annoying?   Tight lines, Mark Cahill

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation SNIPPED TO FIT: Isn’t it annoying? Tight lines, Mark Cahil I’ve also had ‘em go ater the knots in my leader when fishing drys in preference to the piece of work I was offering at the end of my tippet. (Usually a hint to go down to something a lot smaller.) zeno

I could jump into this discussion but think I best not as my views are miles apart  here.  However, I agree with ‘the hint,’ zeno. George Gehrke Mr. Gink

Response:

I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation?

I’ve had tis happen also, and here are my guesses at what is happening. Everyone tells me that drag, and it could be micro drag that you can’t see, accounts for most refusals of dry flies. When you have a sunken nymph below a strike indicator, the line and nymph act like an anchor in the water column, making the strike indicator drift absolutely drag free. The fish go for it. You see that, and tie on a dry fly, with no anchoring nymph and line, so you get micro drag, and the fish don’t strike. Try using a largish dry fly as a strike indicator. Something bushy like a stimulator or large Elk Hair Caddis. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

Completely understand.  The notorious Indicator Hatch.   The recommended approach is to go home and tie up some strike indicator imitations and fish them on a dead drift.

I did this, and I’ll be goddamned if it didn’t work! After having a few "selective trout" break out of their feeding patterns to chase my styrofoam orange strike indicator, I went home to the vice, clamped in a number ten hook and wrapped an adhesive backed strike indicator around it. I probably could of stopped right there but, purist that I am, I wrapped a grizzly hackle around the head and tied it off. Vince Marinaro was probably convulsing in his grave as I trotted back to my (then) home water, leering like the Grinch on his sleighride to Whoville. Needless to say, it worked. Not on every fish (thank god) but it worked. It’s all in the orange. Next time you’re tying an Adams, substitute an orange floss body for the usual muskrat. You didn’t hear it from me. Spinolio

Response:

I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  <snip Pete It happens alot, especially on stocked streams and in ponds where fish are used to getting fed. However, I have also seen it on wild trout streams. The bobbing action of cork or foam on the surface can sometimes be a deadly attractor. In fact, there are some "flies" that are made from cork alone (no other dressing!) … they work, even on sophisticated wild trout. Why? I wish I knew. Bob Elliott

In North Georgia most streams are stocked and trophy streams are fed. Although I have had the same experience on streams with natural production which are not fed and the 6" to 10" fish likely are generations away from any fish that was. One particular stream was exclusively browns. I attribute it to the fact that trout are opportunists, curious about there surroundings and lacking hands, they put it in their mouth to find out what it is. Could be a meal and they may be few and far between. When I first began fishing I took a few fish for consumption. One such fish upon examining the stomach contents was full of some type of hard green seeds that had been floating downstream. Not only did the fish not find it offnesive, it continued to gulp the seeds which were also further along in the intestine in much the same condition as those in the stomach. I suppose the fish ‘felt’ full whether it was nutritious or not. The past weekend I was fishing worm imitation, floating it along the bottom in a clear tail out and watched a fish ‘take’ it, or so I thought. I missed, but as the the leaves are falling here, the fish grabbed a leaf and held it in its mouth a little longer than you would expect before realizing what it had. Almost as much fun to observe as to catch! regards, Joe Webb Atlanta Mac User Group (AMUG)

Response:

I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation? Pete

It happens alot, especially on stocked streams and in ponds where fish are used to getting fed. However, I have also seen it on wild trout streams. The bobbing action of cork or foam on the surface can sometimes be a deadly attractor. In fact, there are some "flies" that are made from cork alone (no other dressing!) … they work, even on sophisticated wild trout. Why? I wish I knew. Bob Elliott

Response:

I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation? Pete

Put a hook on it!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation? Pete Yes Pete, I’ve had it happen recently.  I was fishing a nymph on a local stocked stream in Central Massachusetts.  What was hitting mine was small brookies, not the quarry dujour, but trout none the less.  My indicator was yellow, so I switched over to a yellow dry fly.  I had a few hits, but the only yellow fly I had was too big for the 4" brookie’s mouth is only so big. Maybe the indicators look like the pellets from the hatchery (although I doubt they stocked 4" fish). Isn’t it annoying? Tight lines, Mark Cahil I’ve also had ‘em go ater the knots in my leader when fishing drys in preference to the piece of work I was offering at the end of my tippet. (Usually a hint to go down to something a lot smaller.) zeno

I have had it happen with a yellow strike indicator during hopper season.  Switch to a hopper usually works then. YMMV. Dan — Daniel J. Gaspar                        Department of Chemistry (773) 702-7209                          University of Chicago

Response:

I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation?

   I don’t know the entomology of this, but it is common experience. I always carry an orange humpy or two for this situation. They even make pretty good strike indicators. Joel A. Tobias 2941 Doctors Park Dr. Medford, OR 97504

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation? Pete Yes Pete, I’ve had it happen recently.  I was fishing a nymph on a local stocked stream in Central Massachusetts.  What was hitting mine was small brookies, not the quarry dujour, but trout none the less.  My indicator was yellow, so I switched over to a yellow dry fly.  I had a few hits, but the only yellow fly I had was too big for the 4" brookie’s mouth is only so big. Maybe the indicators look like the pellets from the hatchery (although I doubt they stocked 4" fish). Isn’t it annoying? Tight lines, Mark Cahil

I’ve also had ‘em go ater the knots in my leader when fishing drys in preference to the piece of work I was offering at the end of my tippet. (Usually a hint to go down to something a lot smaller.) zeno

Response:

I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation? Pete

In line with Tim’s comment I often use an orange Bug (deer hair clipped sinker shaped with a hackle wound through) as an indicator, and it has landed fish. Paul

Response:

I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation?

Completely understand.  The notorious Indicator Hatch.   The recommended approach is to go home and tie up some strike indicator imitations and fish them on a dead drift. TimW

Response:

I’m certain that I’m not the only one to have this happen: I was fishing a nymph on a floating line with a small orange strike indicator.  As I drifted the flies through a likely looking spot, a nice trout came up and hammered the cork indicator.  After a couple more "takes" I switched to a dry fly. Nothing.  I switched to an egg pattern in  a similar color. Nothing.  I put the indicator back on. WHaM!  What have others done in this situation? Pete

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know about beaver creek in CA this year or at all? I was there last year late in the summer and the water was realy low. The were a lot of feed bugs in the water, but the water was too low to produce any sizable trout. Any info on the creek would be great. TimFLYFISH Dream of flyfishing, but also let the fish dream. C & R

Response:

Tim, where do you fish Beaver Ck.? in the park or up outa Sourgrass? I would expect the water to be high right now. The Stanislaus at Sourgrass was pretty high and fast a couple weeks ago. As I remember the fish aren’t really big there. This time of the year, due to high, fast water fish close to the river bank. There are some nice holes outa Sourgrass and up the creek where the road crosses Beaver Ck. wish you luck, Bob

: Does anyone know about beaver creek in CA this year or at all? I was there : last year late in the summer and the water was realy low. The were a lot : of feed bugs in the water, but the water was too low to produce any : sizable trout. Any info on the creek would be great. : TimFLYFISH : Dream of flyfishing, but also let the fish dream. C & R —  Remember amateur astronomers: "keep looking for the next Universe"

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