Question:

Carl, These boats differ in their performance.  The Delta, Acadia, Bayou, Keowee and Swifty are all "recreational boats".  The Delta and the Bayou are very similar in performance but one is longer than the other and tracks better. They both have flat hulls and are very good with initial stability but not very good secondary stability.  These boats will track better and be a bit faster than the Swifty and Keowee. The Swifty and Keowee are just knock around boats.  They don’t track well but do maneuver easily.  The Acadia is at the extreme low end of "touring kayaks"  It’s has a little more rocker on it but is made to get out into the easy ocean if desired.  It has good initial and secondary stability.  All of these boats will do flat water, easy class I/II rapids and paddle in bays well.  The Acadia, you can take a step further out in the easy ocean.

I’ve seen Swiftys and Keowees on class II, and I don’t think I’d say that they do it well.  Certainly people have fun in them, but…well, it depends on the class II, I guess.  I think that the more technical the river is, the less fun these boats will be.  Also, I’ve never seen anyone wear a skirt with these — it could be a pretty damp experience.   — ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::         "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart                 for the joys of the multitude"

Response:

Yes it does depend on the river.  The Chattahoochee in Atlanta would be fine but something that is more technical would not.  That’s why I said easy class I/II rapids.  People have the option of purchasing a skirt with these boats.  The companies make skirts that fit each one.  If a person tells me they want to run some easy class I/II as well as flat water, I tell them they may want to purchase a skirt with it to keep the water out.  On the other hand if they just want to do flat water, there’s no need for a skirt unless they want to get a mini-skirt for splash or paddle drip. Courtney Rapid Adventures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen Swiftys and Keowees on class II, and I don’t think I’d say that they do it well.  Certainly people have fun in them, but…well, it depends on the class II, I guess.  I think that the more technical the river is, the less fun these boats will be.  Also, I’ve never seen anyone wear a skirt with these — it could be a pretty damp experience.

Response:

You can get into a Swifty and yes it will float but it will sit lower in the water and be sluggish.  The Delta would be a better boat for doing what you are wanting to do and be more in your weight range.  If you really liked it, go for it.  It’s a great boat and I’m sure you won’t be disappointed. Courtney Rapid Adventures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Courtney WOW- what a great reply…..thanks SO VERY MUCH!!!! As a follow-up- being 6-01/245- will the Swiftie float ??  If so, I think it would be an ideal 1st boat for me…..going to the kids later (if I like it enough to spend more $$$$$)  All I want to do at this point is paddle out a little, or paddle upstream a little (slow river) and flyfish for Bass/Panfish on the way back. I do have to admit though- out of the Delta and Bayou- I liked the Delta MUCH better.  The Bayou just seemed a little squirley compared to the Delta.  I even sat back and pulled my legs out and dangled them in the water in the Delta. A nice way to float down stream .  Couldn’t do that in the Bayou. I guess the thing that keeps me fluctuating towards Perception is their cool web site- maybe their boats are as cool??  Haven’t seen one though- other than on the web . Thanks again!! Carl

Response:

Dear Courtney WOW- what a great reply…..thanks SO VERY MUCH!!!! As a follow-up- being 6-01/245- will the Swiftie float ??  If so, I think it would be an ideal 1st boat for me…..going to the kids later (if I like it enough to spend more $$$$$)  All I want to do at this point is paddle out a little, or paddle upstream a little (slow river) and flyfish for Bass/Panfish on the way back. I do have to admit though- out of the Delta and Bayou- I liked the Delta MUCH better.  The Bayou just seemed a little squirley compared to the Delta.  I even sat back and pulled my legs out and dangled them in the water in the Delta.  A nice way to float down stream .  Couldn’t do that in the Bayou. I guess the thing that keeps me fluctuating towards Perception is their cool web site- maybe their boats are as cool??  Haven’t seen one though- other than on the web . Thanks again!! Carl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Carl, These boats differ in their performance.  The Delta, Acadia, Bayou, Keowee and Swifty are all "recreational boats".  The Delta and the Bayou are very similar in performance but one is longer than the other and tracks better. They both have flat hulls and are very good with initial stability but not very good secondary stability.  These boats will track better and be a bit faster than the Swifty and Keowee. The Swifty and Keowee are just knock around boats.  They don’t track well but do maneuver easily.  The Acadia is at the extreme low end of "touring kayaks"  It’s has a little more rocker on it but is made to get out into the easy ocean if desired.  It has good initial and secondary stability.  All of these boats will do flat water, easy class I/II rapids and paddle in bays well.  The Acadia, you can take a step further out in the easy ocean. As for the Carolina and Chinook, they are both Touring (sea) kayaks.  They track very well but are harder to turn.  Normally they will come with a rudder to help you with this.  They are both much faster than the above mentioned kayaks.  They have very good initial and secondary stability and both perform beautiful on flat water, easy class I/II rivers, bays and out in the ocean.  Their intended purpose is for actual sea kayaking, flat water and easy rivers. Both companies hold a good warranty (I think 3 years).  Dagger plastic is made of Excel polyethylene whereas Perception is made of Linear. Technically Excel is stronger but both plastics are very good.  Wilderness Systems material is made up of Crosslink.  This is the strongest of materials but a little heavier. Since you tried the Delta and liked it but didn’t like the Bayou, you may also check out the Wilderness Systems Manteo.  You may find you like it a whole lot better than the Pungo.  The hull on these boats are called a tri-hull.  They have excellent initial and secondary stability and track very well.  I have known several people to take them on all the above mentioned waters but they did get a bit nervous when out in the ocean and the waves got big or choppy. If you’re looking at a used boat, take a look to see that the top of the boat is the same color as the bottom of the boat.  People store their kayaks outside allot and the UV rays break down the plastic over time.  If stored indoors the plastic condition should be fine.  Also look for oil canning (where the boat has a bow in it somewhere on the hull, usually under the seat).  I little bow is o.k. but if it looks really wavy, the plastic is getting warn and doesn’t have too much time left before it cracks.   Look for deep gouges as well.  There will always be scratches on a boat and that’s fine but DEEP gouges can be a sign of trouble on the horizon depending on where these gouges are.  For instance, under the seat would be a bad place. Out of all of these boats, I would focus on the Delta, Acadia and Manteo if not planning on really getting out into the ocean.  The Manteo does great in waves and flat water, the Acadia the same but less initial stability and the Delta does better in flat water due to the good initial stability but not that much secondary and is not as wave friendly. If planning on going into the ocean, either the Carolina or Chinook would be good.  I personally like the Carolina the best because of it’s stability and performance. Hope this helped and sorry it’s so long.  I work in a boat store and sell these boats every day and it’s hard to narrow it down to two sentences. Courtney Rapid Adventures Hi: I’m a long time paddler (canoe) that’s brand new to kayaks…..but I’m hooked Tested the Delta today and loved it….haven’t seen the Acadia or Carolina, however from the web the Acadia seems almost exactly like the Delta.  What are your thoughts….which is a better company (product, fit and finish, warranty, support etc) and which is a better boat?  To complicate matters another shop has a used Perception Chinook for the same price as these new boats……. Also, I’m 6′01" and 245lbs…..any large kayakers try the Keowee or even the Swiftie?  I did paddle the WS Pongo and the Dagger Bayou and did not like either (for different reasons). I know this is a long message, but I do hop there are some out there that will have the time to respond…..I’m hopelessly confused Carl

Response:

Carl – Did you try also posting your message to the following newsgroup? rec.boats.paddle.touring You might reach more users who could help you out there. Good luck! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I wanted to thank the two newsgroup members above- they were the only replies to my post.  For the rest of you, PLEASE help me with opinions.  I have no kayak background and thought that this would be the perfect forum to get experienced responses.  My original post is below:- (My sole (current) ambition is to paddle a mile or so upstream and fly-fish downstream)) Hi: I’m a long time paddler (canoe) that’s brand new to kayaks…..but I’m hooked Tested the Delta today and loved it….haven’t seen the Acadia or Carolina, however from the web the Acadia seems almost exactly like the Delta.  What are your thoughts….which is a better company (product, fit and finish, warranty, support etc) and which is a better boat?  To complicate matters another shop has a used Perception Chinook for the same price as these new boats……. Also, I’m 6′01" and 245lbs…..any large kayakers try the Keowee or even the Swiftie?  I did paddle the WS Pongo and the Dagger Bayou and did not like either (for different reasons). I know this is a long message, but I do hop there are some out there that will have the time to respond…..I’m hopelessly confused Carl

Sue

Response:

Carl, These boats differ in their performance.  The Delta, Acadia, Bayou, Keowee and Swifty are all "recreational boats".  The Delta and the Bayou are very similar in performance but one is longer than the other and tracks better. They both have flat hulls and are very good with initial stability but not very good secondary stability.  These boats will track better and be a bit faster than the Swifty and Keowee. The Swifty and Keowee are just knock around boats.  They don’t track well but do maneuver easily.  The Acadia is at the extreme low end of "touring kayaks"  It’s has a little more rocker on it but is made to get out into the easy ocean if desired.  It has good initial and secondary stability.  All of these boats will do flat water, easy class I/II rapids and paddle in bays well.  The Acadia, you can take a step further out in the easy ocean. As for the Carolina and Chinook, they are both Touring (sea) kayaks.  They track very well but are harder to turn.  Normally they will come with a rudder to help you with this.  They are both much faster than the above mentioned kayaks.  They have very good initial and secondary stability and both perform beautiful on flat water, easy class I/II rivers, bays and out in the ocean.  Their intended purpose is for actual sea kayaking, flat water and easy rivers. Both companies hold a good warranty (I think 3 years).  Dagger plastic is made of Excel polyethylene whereas Perception is made of Linear. Technically Excel is stronger but both plastics are very good.  Wilderness Systems material is made up of Crosslink.  This is the strongest of materials but a little heavier. Since you tried the Delta and liked it but didn’t like the Bayou, you may also check out the Wilderness Systems Manteo.  You may find you like it a whole lot better than the Pungo.  The hull on these boats are called a tri-hull.  They have excellent initial and secondary stability and track very well.  I have known several people to take them on all the above mentioned waters but they did get a bit nervous when out in the ocean and the waves got big or choppy. If you’re looking at a used boat, take a look to see that the top of the boat is the same color as the bottom of the boat.  People store their kayaks outside allot and the UV rays break down the plastic over time.  If stored indoors the plastic condition should be fine.  Also look for oil canning (where the boat has a bow in it somewhere on the hull, usually under the seat).  I little bow is o.k. but if it looks really wavy, the plastic is getting warn and doesn’t have too much time left before it cracks.   Look for deep gouges as well.  There will always be scratches on a boat and that’s fine but DEEP gouges can be a sign of trouble on the horizon depending on where these gouges are.  For instance, under the seat would be a bad place. Out of all of these boats, I would focus on the Delta, Acadia and Manteo if not planning on really getting out into the ocean.  The Manteo does great in waves and flat water, the Acadia the same but less initial stability and the Delta does better in flat water due to the good initial stability but not that much secondary and is not as wave friendly. If planning on going into the ocean, either the Carolina or Chinook would be good.  I personally like the Carolina the best because of it’s stability and performance. Hope this helped and sorry it’s so long.  I work in a boat store and sell these boats every day and it’s hard to narrow it down to two sentences. Courtney Rapid Adventures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi: I’m a long time paddler (canoe) that’s brand new to kayaks…..but I’m hooked Tested the Delta today and loved it….haven’t seen the Acadia or Carolina, however from the web the Acadia seems almost exactly like the Delta.  What are your thoughts….which is a better company (product, fit and finish, warranty, support etc) and which is a better boat?  To complicate matters another shop has a used Perception Chinook for the same price as these new boats……. Also, I’m 6′01" and 245lbs…..any large kayakers try the Keowee or even the Swiftie?  I did paddle the WS Pongo and the Dagger Bayou and did not like either (for different reasons). I know this is a long message, but I do hop there are some out there that will have the time to respond…..I’m hopelessly confused Carl

Response:

I wanted to thank the two newsgroup members above- they were the only replies to my post.  For the rest of you, PLEASE help me with opinions.  I have no kayak background and thought that this would be the perfect forum to get experienced responses.  My original post is below:- (My sole (current) ambition is to paddle a mile or so upstream and fly-fish downstream)) Hi: I’m a long time paddler (canoe) that’s brand new to kayaks…..but I’m hooked Tested the Delta today and loved it….haven’t seen the Acadia or Carolina, however from the web the Acadia seems almost exactly like the Delta.  What are your thoughts….which is a better company (product, fit and finish, warranty, support etc) and which is a better boat?  To complicate matters another shop has a used Perception Chinook for the same price as these new boats……. Also, I’m 6′01" and 245lbs…..any large kayakers try the Keowee or even the Swiftie?  I did paddle the WS Pongo and the Dagger Bayou and did not like either (for different reasons). I know this is a long message, but I do hop there are some out there that will have the time to respond…..I’m hopelessly confused Carl

Response:

Hi: I’m a long time paddler (canoe) that’s brand new to kayaks…..but I’m hooked Tested the Delta today and loved it….haven’t seen the Acadia or Carolina, however from the web the Acadia seems almost exactly like the Delta.  What are your thoughts….which is a better company (product, fit and finish, warranty, support etc) and which is a better boat?  To complicate matters another shop has a used Perception Chinook for the same price as these new boats……. Also, I’m 6′01" and 245lbs…..any large kayakers try the Keowee or even the Swiftie?  I did paddle the WS Pongo and the Dagger Bayou and did not like either (for different reasons). I know this is a long message, but I do hop there are some out there that will have the time to respond…..I’m hopelessly confused Carl

Response:

paddled the Carolina in a Basic Sea Kayaking course and was pleased with it. It was my first time kayaking and I had no problems.  It is 25 1/4 inches wide so it will be more tippy than the Delta I believe.  I would be reluctant to paddle a kayak with out some instruction.  Oh, I almost forgot, I am 6′ 2" and found the Carolina a little too scrunched up for my legs.  I rented a Current Designs Storm (17′ l  24"w) today and the leg room was better and it was fast, but it was extremely heavy.  Hope this helps some.

Response:

I have had two Dagger white water boats and have had no complaints about their fit or finish. Are you pretty much decided on a day-tripping boat? There are a number of choices out there, in a number of lengths, and it is easy to get "analysis paralysis". Check out the paddling shops in your area and find out about rentals and demo days. Get hooked up with a paddling club or two and you can get exposure to a number of different boats and opinions. Many folks have more than one and might be willing to help you compare. Don’t worry about making the choice. You’re really just buying your *first* kayak, anyway . (ps- one of the boats I have is a Wilderness Systems Seacret, which is plenty wide (I’m 6′1" and weigh 205) and has lots of foot room, and was surprisingly maneuverable and quick… I bought it to serve as a fishing photo platform, but really like it generally. Check and see when the outfitters in your area are selling used equipment…worked for me, and I got it half price! Good luck! — paddlrat living proof that rats can swim! Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

I got hooked on it this summer and I recommend that you check out www.kayakfishing.com  Spike is really knowledgeable and I know that you will find what advice you need there.  I got a Malibu 2 (Ocean Kayak) and love it all the way.  i have boated some very large fish from this thing and am now really confident that the sit-on-tops are the way to go. Fish-on I spent quite a bit of time fishing from a canoe, but think I’d like to try a kayak, particularly for carrying in relatively short distances to lakes without boat ramps.  I think I’d prefer an open cockpit, or sit-on type.  Someone suggested I look into the "Pungo".  Does anyone have any experience with the Pungo, or ideas about other types I should be considering?  Thanks much. chuck

– MZ

Response:

I saw someone fly fishing from a kayak this past weekend.  It was quite the site!  I think they were in a Perception Carolina? My Old Town Heron has a large cockpit area but its heavy (50lbs or so) so its not easy to carry long distances.  You ought to look at Dagger’s Atlantis, its a large cockpit and its a pretty light boat. — http://www.ncseakayak.com North Carolina’s Headquarters for Sea Kayakers! Before you buy.

Response:

Ifly fish about 4 days a week, from my kayak’s mostly. I’ve migrated to dagger’s delta & bayou models. Their stable & stealth I can park them anywhere with low profile they get little wind drift. I use a 2 ft. hand paddle to position boat  from place to place as i fish. my wife claims I’ve become obsesed,I think i’ve finialy discovered the ultimate fly fishing vehicle.  good luck& enjoy

Response:

I spent quite a bit of time fishing from a canoe, but think I’d like to try a kayak, particularly for carrying in relatively short distances to lakes without boat ramps.  I think I’d prefer an open cockpit, or sit-on type.  Someone suggested I look into the "Pungo".  Does anyone have any experience with the Pungo, or ideas about other types I should be considering?  Thanks much. chuck

Response:

I spent quite a bit of time fishing from a canoe, but think I’d like to try a kayak, particularly for carrying in relatively short distances to lakes without boat ramps.  I think I’d prefer an open cockpit, or sit-on type.  Someone suggested I look into the "Pungo".  Does anyone have any experience with the Pungo, or ideas about other types I should be considering?  Thanks much.

The Pungo seems to be a big seller in the Atlanta area, but I like my Ride (also by Wilderness Systems). The Ride is a sit-on-top as opposed to an open cockpit, and if keeping your butt dry is important it’s probably not for you<g. The Ride is also probably more awkward to carry than the Pungo, I got a set of wheels that slip on the back of a kayak or canoe to use on mine. — Charlie…

Response:

Chuck, I use to fish from a small boat I owned and sometimes from canoes I rented. I sold the boat and didn’t fish for many years. This past summer I decided to fish again and thought to buy a canoe but ended up buying a kayak. I’ll share the details – maybe it will be of help in some way. – canoes were more expensive than I thought and the   idea of using a kayak came to mind. I had no idea what kayaks cost – thought they might be cheaper. I had never heard of anyone fishing from a kayak but thought maybe it would work. – I wanted something small enough to store in my garage.  I did some research online. I was surprised at how long and how expensive some kayaks are. I identified the major companies and the smaller, less expensive models. I narrowed my search to about 3 kayaks. Only one of them had a distributer close by (20 miles away). They had a website and I got the basic info from that. I called and made arrangements to come look at the model of interest – an Old Town – Otter – they had to bring it in from their warehouse several miles away. They had a ‘Loon’ – a more expensive and longer model in stock that was nice but I bought the Otter for just over $300. – the otter is 9′ 6" long and fits just perfect on top of my car, it has a large open cockpit easy to enter/exit, it is not built to ‘roll’ – which having never ridden in a kayak I didn’t know how to do, and I’m not sure ‘rolling’ and fishing go together anyway! It fits nicely in my garage. It weighs 39 pounds – about as light as I could find- and is easy to carry. – I knew nothing about tracking, speed, compounds etc when I bought it but I think all that turned out ok with what I got and the casual fishing I’m doing. – I didn’t know if there would be enough room to fish comfortably from a kayak but it turned out there is – for me. All my ‘gear’ goes in my small backpack – the other items are a paddle and a ‘life jacket’ and one fishing rod. I have a bow line and a stern line tied to the kayak – they are used to tie the kayak to the car. When I launch – I tie the bow line to my paddle and the stern line to my pack – in case I ever flip. I rest my legs on the pack – it’s right in front of me with easy access to my lures etc. I’ve learned to rest the paddle across the kayak when not in use and to ‘fish around it’. I’ve never had a problem  landing a fish because the paddle got in the way. – I don’t know if other styles of kayaks such as those you ’sit on top’ would work better or not – I’ve never tried one. I have made trips of up to 3-4 hrs without getting out of the kayak – I can shift my seating position a little and that helps- but you can’t move around much. -kayak fishing isn’t for everyone, but I like it. I’m small (5′ 8"), a good swimmer (also scuba certified), very comfortable in and around the water, comfortable in confined spaces (use to do some cave exploring). I like being low on the water while I fish – and the way I’m able to move the kayak into places larger craft don’t go – in and around the bank / stumps etc – and it’s so peaceful and quiet – I can come up on fish very quietly – some even swim over to check me out. I think I enjoyed my past canoe trips because it ‘put me close to nature’ – and with the kayak I feel even closer. – the places I fish have boat ramps, but once I went where there was no ramp. I had to carry the kayak down a hill about 50 feet. It was not a problem – but it did take more effort than I thought it would. I wouldn’t want to carry it a hundred yards! – as for negatives, the kayak tips over relatively easy – (that hasn’t been a problem for me), it’s sensitive to the wind – this can be a challenge while trying to fish – sometimes I can take advantage by drifting, depending on shoreline location or even doing some trolling. – I’ll be happy to share other info or answer questions. -larry

Response:

You should look into the Old Towne Loon series.  They have a large open cockpit and are very stable. Bill Bernhardt

Response:

Does anyone have any experience with the Pungo, or ideas about other types I should be considering?

The Pungo would be a great choice – stable, roomy, relatively fast for its size, not too heavy to cart around.

Response:

Here are two sites to try: http://www.waldenkayak.com/models.html ( scroll down to the Walden Scout ) and http://www.otccanoe.com/loon138.html check out the Old Town Loon 138

Response:

Hey Chuck, I do alot of fishing from a sit on top out here in the Pacific ocean. I have an ocean kayak scupper classic. This is a popular boat out here for fishing from. It is about 14 feet long, fairly stable, and has two big hatches so you can store gear inside the kayak. It doesn’t roll, you will fall off before you roll it…but the best thing that I have found is to sit sideways, with your feet in the water when fishing. This makes the boat very stable, I have never even come close to feeling like I was going to tip, when sitting sideways. Its also really comfortable that way. Necky also makes some nice models for fishing and so does Perception. Our company makes some wheels which use the drain holes on many sit on tops as mounting points,(that way the cart can’t slip off the back of the kayak when going over curbs, rocks, roots, etc.) they collapse so you can fit them inside the hatches on the kayak. This is really handy, because once you get to the water, you just disassemble the wheels and take them with you instead of having to take them back to the car. You can make some pole holders out of pvc pipe, or mount some of the holders available at tackle stores to the deck of the kayak, which is really handy. We put sonar on our kayaks too, once you outfit the kayak you have a great fishing machine…This might be more info than you asked for, but what can I say, Im enthusiastic about the sport. Good luck E Scary Sports http://www.scarysports.com

Response:

I spent quite a bit of time fishing from a canoe, but think I’d like to try a kayak, particularly for carrying in relatively short distances to lakes without boat ramps.  I think I’d prefer an open cockpit, or sit-on type. Someone suggested I look into the "Pungo".  Does anyone have any experience with the Pungo, or ideas about other types I should be considering?  Thanks much. chuck

Chuck, look at this site before you do anything: http://www.kayakfishing.com/ Also, make sure you look at all the different boats that might suit your purpose (lake, river, or ocean fishing). In recent years, there have been many innovations, especially in plastic sitontop boats, so give them a try before settling for a more "traditional" solution. For example, Ocean Kayaks, Perception, and Cobra all have models that come with decks molded to accept small coolers, SCUBA tanks, dry bags, caught fish, etc., that are instantly accessible from the seat. Some have hatches that open into compartments that can be used as live bait or fish wells, and can even be equipped with areators. These kayaks can also be outfitted with small anchors or sea drogues to help with drifting, clips to hold spare paddles and rods, rod holders, etc. Perception sells "outback" models of a couple of its boats that are fully geared up for the "outdoorsman," with many of the options I mentioned above. Have fun! Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Get the Pungo.  It’s a GREAT fishing kayak!! Courtney Rapid Adventures

Response:

I spent quite a bit of time fishing from a canoe, but think I’d like to try a kayak,

The Perception Axess comes in two styles, one style is specificly designed and outfitted for fishing. The boat is a "closed" cockpit type but can easily be paddled without a skirt on flat water and the front of the cockpit area is equipped with little tackle trays and such goodies. It is a very stable boat and a lot of thought went into the bow hull design to reduce the "slapping" of the water that spooks fish. The fishing version of this boat comes in subdued colors, and as far as I know, it is the only boat of its kind anywhere at any price. The whitewater variant is a full-on creek boat and the only real differences are in color, cockpit design and outfitting. The fishing axess has a pretty cool rod holder built in as well. Its a nice nice boat, and yes, I have paddled it. take care have fun go fishing :wq Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, that’s a new one on me.  Could you post a recipe for the Pass Lake (here or on rofft)? I use standard dry fly hooks in sizes 16-10, with 12s and 14s being the most common..  Tie in a bit of mallard flank for the tail and snip to just behind the bend.  The body is fine chenille wrapped back and then forward to make it fat.  I usually use black, sometimes brown, but any color can be used.  Take two turns of brown hackle and then sweep them toward the back of the hook and tie down.  The wing is a heavy clump of white calf tail tied in on top and also swept back.  Calf tail is VERY slippery. It’s important to tie it in very firmly or it will pull out.

My copy of Flies: The Best 1000 gives the following recipe: hook: TMC 7999, Partidge M or P, size 8-12 thread: black 6/0 prewaxed tail: brown hackle fibers body: black Chenille hackle: brown hackle wing: white calftail They classify this as an Atlantic Salmon fly — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

thanks a bunch All of the advice has been miles of help.  I’m fly fishing the entire 3 day weekend in central Oregon. I think the best casting lesson is given from another fisherman, and not from a book.  So I will try to find an amiable fisherman where I am fishing this weekend to give me the basics.  I know the the book basics – 10 and 2 o’clock, keep your wrist locked, etc.  But I think a 1-on-1 lesson with a seasoned fisherman would be priceless. thanks again, and tight lines to all -Max

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? thanks a lot -Max

Response:

They classify this as an Atlantic Salmon fly

I’ve only seen dressings for this fly in two sources over the years.  Both of them listed it as a streamer.  I’ve actually tied it as such and failed to catch anything on it.  I was first introduced to it by an excellent tier back when I was just beginning to get interested in fly fishing.  He tied it as a dry fly (as in my description) and I do it just as he did.  Considering how successful it’s been for me, I have always been surprised by how few people know the Pass Lake at all, regardless of how it’s dressed.  I’ve had a number of hundred fish days using this fly and it is very consistent fish catcher.  It has not been uncommon in my experience for fish to prefer it to whatever might be hatching at the moment.  Go figure.

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My experience is that selectivity to pattern is very uncommon.  As long as you have an appropriately sized fly, presented well, you get takes. Changing size is often important, changing pattern seldom is even during heavy hatches. The exceptions I’ve found to this is when fishing very calm water or with fish that are in heavily fished C&R waters (they can become hyper selective). Too many new anglers get wrapped up in finding the "right" fly rather than concentrating on the more important and more difficult aspect of reading water and making a good presentation. 90%+ of fish will respond to an appropriately sized fly presented correctly (Correctly is a VERY big subject) while 90%+ of fish will ignore a poorly presented fly even if it matches the hatch perfectly.   A little story I read in some magazine or book: There was a pod of notoriously difficult selectively surface feeding fish on a popular C&R river. These fish would consistently surface feed on the far bank under some overhanging branches. These fish were locally famous for being extremely difficult & selective. A number of patterns were designed especially for these fish. An angler would have success one day and catch one of these "tough" ones. Someone would have success on a new fly and there’d be an instant new "hot" pattern  This went on for several years with a multitude of patterns circulating around, but no one was able to achieve any consistent success. Then the discovery was made!  An energetic and smart angler made the long hike needed to cross the river and did some bushwhacking to get in position for a downstream cast directly above the feeding fish.  He clobbered them on a simple Elk Hair’s Caddis.  It seems that the fish were not so selective to pattern but where very selective to presentation.  An infrequent good drift could be made from the far bank, but the intervening currents made it very difficult. Thus the sporadic results with the new hot flies. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you’re fishing a Caddis, and BWO’s start to come off, and fish start hitting them, you’d be foolish not to change flies.  Even as a newbie. Similarly, if you’re sight fishing, and you present a fly properly to a feeding, unspooked fish, and it doesn’t respond, you should change. Period.  Of course, as a newbie, you may have trouble sorting out when you’ve met the criteria ("properly presented", "unspooked").  But hey, life is tough for newbies, so what else is new?  But the alternative of continuing to chuck your "one" fly at the beast isn’t all that attractive either. I do think that disciplined, careful changing of flies is a skill that can be learned by newbies, and is preferable to sticking with one fly no matter what happens.  For example, if you don’t know what they’re hitting, learning to fish a two nymph rig, and systematically changing one fly at a time when nothing happens is all to the good, imho.  If you want to keep one a hare’s ear all the time, by all means.  But changing the other systematically would likely improve results. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I have always been surprised by how few people know the Pass Lake at all, regardless of how it’s dressed.  I’ve had a number of hundred fish days using this fly and it is very consistent fish catcher.  It has not been uncommon in my experience for fish to prefer it to whatever might be hatching at the moment.  Go figure.

Thanks Wolfgang.  I happen to have the materials handy so I’ll tie up a few tonight – never hurts to try something new.  A wooly worm with a calftail wing basically.  If my local trout don’t care for it, I’m sure the pumpkinseeds will.  Fishing it like you do, trapped in the film, is probably a good imitator of a variety of emergers. Regards, Stan

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When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts)

My advice to a beginner is to not give in to the temptation of switching flies very often.  Learn how to present a nymph and a dry properly, at the correct depth, in the right spots etc.  The "right" fly presented poorly is much worse than the "wrong" fly presented well and in the right place. Presentation is the skill that makes a good fly fisherman who can be successful on varied waters and conditions. IMHO this is the skill a beginner should concentrate on. Once you learn where the fish are most likely to be and how to present a fly in the correct manner and at the right depth, selecting the "right" fly may increase your catch. Without presentation skills, it doesn’t matter much which fly you’re using. I’d suggest using an all around dry and nymph to start.  A 16 Elk Hair Caddis and a 14 Hare’s Ear area good choice for Western waters. Willi

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0] : I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: : Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that : the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. : Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? : If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? : What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake : vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. : When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) : What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? : thanks a lot : -Max I will add something to the other answers you have gotten to your questions. I find that most of the time I can clean the fish slime off a dry fly by flicking it hard against the water on a short line a few times, then a couple of false casts to dry it, and then the next cast is to a fish–all without having to touch the fly after I have released the fish. Obviously don’t flick it near the spot where you are going fish it next. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

My advice to a beginner is to not give in to the temptation of switching flies very often. I’d suggest using an all around dry and nymph to start.  A 16 Elk Hair Caddis and a 14 Hare’s Ear area good choice for Western waters.

Willi, Like anything else, it’s a matter of everything in moderation, including moderation. If you’re fishing a Caddis, and BWO’s start to come off, and fish start hitting them, you’d be foolish not to change flies.  Even as a newbie. Similarly, if you’re sight fishing, and you present a fly properly to a feeding, unspooked fish, and it doesn’t respond, you should change. Period.  Of course, as a newbie, you may have trouble sorting out when you’ve met the criteria ("properly presented", "unspooked").  But hey, life is tough for newbies, so what else is new?  But the alternative of continuing to chuck your "one" fly at the beast isn’t all that attractive either. I do think that disciplined, careful changing of flies is a skill that can be learned by newbies, and is preferable to sticking with one fly no matter what happens.  For example, if you don’t know what they’re hitting, learning to fish a two nymph rig, and systematically changing one fly at a time when nothing happens is all to the good, imho.  If you want to keep one a hare’s ear all the time, by all means.  But changing the other systematically would likely improve results. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– While in non-compliance with local decency ordinances the world over, Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink.

I didn’t think that fish salivate. Shows ya what I know. At any rate, I don’t change the fly. Some people will re-tie the knot after every fish, but I don’t even do that. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished?

Both. Usually, most people think that the key is how the fly is tied, but I personally consider a dry that sinks to be a wet fly. (However, it’s rare that wet flies float, since they’re often weighted) If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly?

Not necessarily. You just need to gink it. I would say that it is, but I’d bet that I’m in the minority. What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc.

If there’s a hatch and fish are feeding at the surface, then I’d use a dry. Otherwise, I might start with some dry search pattern, but I’d probably move on to nymphs or streamers. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts)

After an hour or so with no action. But that depends. It’s easy for me to tie on the right fly and then screw everything else up. What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns?

My own do-everything dry patterns are the Adams, Royal Coachman, a hopper pattern, and an Elk Hair Caddis. I also carry Hare’s Ear and Prince Nymphs, and Wooly Bugger, or some sort of Muddler streamer. If I’m on warm water, I’ll add cork poppers in various colors. All told, those make up probably 95% of all of the fishing that I do. But then, there are much better fishermen than I in this newsgroup Tight Lines! —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBN3vW/ckBcsCVVLK5AQH5mQP/bzO6lYiF4+s9UBS0y7+cktA3xMLs7RMJ Ooi4q1H+d4ELDsk9K3VObnsGGmZM76cB2DnnXAA2L85wBCPP8lplKURnxDjw6JVN h+whcgF4olt3U44TBEYLay38UFT4nfmr9aZhRo5mV/NSLkJOrpjGze2ltZfTwdqp chR+N3TfgYE= =8KRl —–END PGP SIGNATURE—– Mike S. Medintz, B.S. | http://www.grapevine.net/~medintz "Living with a dog is easy-like living with an idealist  is easy." -H.L. Mencken

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Max: You have received good advise from all, butIi would like to add one fly that I do not leave home without that appears to have been forgotten by all.That is a Clouser minnow. My most productive one is very sparsely tied chartreuse over white and tied with bead chain eyes. Big Dale

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Max: You have received good advise from all, butIi would like to add one fly that I do not leave home without that appears to have been forgotten by all.That is a Clouser minnow. My most productive one is very sparsely tied chartreuse over white and tied with bead chain eyes.

Hey Dale, my own personal "Don’t leave home without it" is the Pass Lake.  Never understood why this bug isn’t more popular.  It’s somewhat infuriating to use because it always sinks when I want it to float and always floats when I want it to sink, but it catches lots of fish either way.  I used to do a lot of fishing with a partner.  We would take turns.  One would fish while the other watched and critiqued.  When a fish was hooked we’d change places.  While waiting my turn to fish I would simply let my bug dangle downstream.  This turned out to be an incredibly effective technique with the Pass Lake; many hundreds of fish caught this way!  The Pass Lake, though it resembles nothing I have ever seen on this Earth is very popular with trout, and bluegills just can’t leave the damned thing alone!

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Hey Dale, my own personal "Don’t leave home without it" is the Pass

Lake. <dot dot dot OK, that’s a new one on me.  Could you post a recipe for the Pass Lake (here or on rofft)? My personal favorites are the zug bug and the prince nymph – don’t know why these are so effective – maybe it’s the peacock herl.  Caught over 100 panfish plus a goodly number of bass on those during the past week.  I ran out of both and need to tie more tonight… –Stan

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OK, that’s a new one on me.  Could you post a recipe for the Pass Lake (here or on rofft)?

I use standard dry fly hooks in sizes 16-10, with 12s and 14s being the most common..  Tie in a bit of mallard flank for the tail and snip to just behind the bend.  The body is fine chenille wrapped back and then forward to make it fat.  I usually use black, sometimes brown, but any color can be used.  Take two turns of brown hackle and then sweep them toward the back of the hook and tie down.  The wing is a heavy clump of white calf tail tied in on top and also swept back.  Calf tail is VERY slippery. It’s important to tie it in very firmly or it will pull out. This fly often rides with the body submerged because of the chenille’s propensity to absorb water, and the wing on the surface.  I suspect it is the fat body just below the surface that makes it attractive to fish despite the fact that it doesn’t really resemble anything that lives in the water.  A liberal application of Albolene helps keep the wing on top. However, as I stated in my original post this one often sinks anyway.  The only real problem with this is that the fly is then difficult to see in fast or foamy water.  It will catch fish anyway.  It can be fish as a dry, a wet, or an emerger.  I’ve never tried weighting it and using as a nymph but I suspect that would work too. TL!

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Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that

Most people try to use flies made of materials that will dry by false-casting:  then you do not need to change the fly after it gets sodden.  Method #2 is to waterproof your flies: there are plenty of formulae or commercial products. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly?

Old (English) theory:  yes:  retrieve and change it. New (American) practice: no:  just carry on fishing. What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc.

Yes, all of the above.  In practice, when no fish are visible, most anglers tie on a known "attractor" to get fish to show themselves. E.g. Henryville Special (dry caddis) is good for trout, Cockatouche (streamer, sunk) for bass. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts)

1.  Choice #1 is between the same fly in a different place and a different fly in the same place. 2.  When you have not yet seen any fish, and if the wading is not too daunting, 4 or 5 casts is enough — and then you move on to cover more water. 3.  It is different if you have seen a fish, e.g. noticed one feeding to a hatch, or got an unsuccessful strike in pocket water.  You should then try 10 or 20 different variations (fly or placement) — indefinitely so long as you do not scare the fish away. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Max….buddy…..you’ve got a LOT of reading to do…. Pick up a copy of Curtis Creek Manifesto (no, not a predecessor to the Unabombers Manifesto!!)…this is a humorous but highly informative book about beginning to Flyfish, a good book for folks that are getting "hooked"….yes, an intentional pun… If you have fished at all before, you probably know some about reading the water… knowing how the water moves, where "lies" are (besides those coming from fishermen’s mouths) and what effect current has on fish.  If not, take a look at a used bookstore for a copy of Ray Ovinton’s "Tactics on Trout"…. it’s a great overview book and can usually be picked up in a late printing used for around $10….another EXCELLENT book on the subject is Ray Bergman’s "Trout"…but it may be a bit more expensive. If you know folks that flyfish, go with them….but leave your rod behind on the first trip and observe closely…ask alot of questions like "why did you do that?" and "why did you cast there?" flyfishermen love to talk about their sport and will be good teachers, but the best classroom is a stream or lake….it’s real toigh to describe how things work away from the water. To learn more about the insects, what they look like and what flies approximate that look, get a copy of Hughes and Haefle’s "Western Hatch Guide" or Art Flick’s "Streamside Guide" …. H&H’s book has a wider range of information, especially for Western US waters….but Flick’s has better photos. Don’t buy flies until you know what types of insects to expect where you’re going to fish….it will help you decide what may work for you and what sizes.  There are some standard pattterns that will work almost anywhere at some point in time, like ….. Dries (there’s a range of colors for all of them..even the Adams….grey, olive, tan, etc.) Adams Elk Hair Caddis Stimulator Sparkle Dun Comparadun Wulffs Royals Trudes Cahills Hendricksons Humpys Mosquitos Nymphs Golden and Brown Stones Pheasant Tails Grey Goose Fox Squirrel Fledermaus APs Prince Zugs Hare’s Ear Wets Cahills Leadwing Coachman Hare’s Ear Professor Trout Fin Picket Pin Wooly Worms Streamers and larger wets Ghosts Mickey Finn Daces Thunder Creeks Wooly Buggers Leeches Matukas Zonkers Terrestrials Hoppers Crickets Beetles Inchworms Caterpilars Ants Mice Best of luck and welcome to the lunacy known as flyfishing….I’m sure your next questions will involve FLYTYING  :) Larry #:)#

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly? ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? thanks a lot -Max

Max, Unfortunately, the answers to most of these questions are not clear- cut.  They must begin with "depends".  A dry fly floats because it does not break the miscus or surface tension of the water it lays on.  I just walked in from fishing a Giant Yellow Mayfly for Bluegill.  I caught 8 large fish in 25 minutes and did not change flys (on my lunch 1/2 hour).  The fly was Ginked before hand and had no trouble staying afloat.  Some flys do not float as well.  Throw it back on the water and see if it sinks.  If it dies, dry it and re-treat it.  If it still sinks, tie on a new one.  I usually carry 3 of each pattern I expect to use because of losses to trees and the need to change out after several fish.  Drys are tied differently from wets in most instances. Watch for feeding fish and go dry or wet depending on what you see.  Fish feed primarily under water so that should be a clue. For fly selection, again, it "depends".  Species, local hatch/baitfish matches, water, etc.  For Trout make sure you have Royal Coachman wet and dry, Royal Wolf wet and dry, Elk Hair Caddis dry and nymph, Yellow Humpy dry, Mad Tom streamer, Grey Ghost streamer, Adams dry, Light Cahill dry, Trico dry, Blue Quill dry, Quill Gordon dry, and Hare’s Ear Bead Head nymph. Have all these flys in sizes 16 to 20 and add size 22 for Tricos. For Smallmouth add black popper, blue popper, Mad Tom streamer, and Zonker streamer.  Have these in sizes 2, 4 and 6.  For Bluegill add yellow popper with legs in size 6 and Crystal fly in silver and/or gold in size 6. Now, you wanna talk saltwater or salmon or other species?  There are specialists here for all of these. Just ask! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20

casts) Max: Mike Conner and others have given you some great responses.  I’ll focus only on this question of when to switch flies. I know, for myself, as I’ve gotten more experienced, I tend to change flies MORE not less. This is partly because I have more confidence in my ability to read water and present a fly.  Ergo, if fish aren’t taking, it’s time to change. There’s no hard and fast rule, as others have pointed out.  If you can see the fish, present the fly where the fish can definitely see it, in it’s feeding lane, and there’s no reponse, that’s usually a good indication to change.  In these cases, you might change after only 1 or 2 casts. If you’re fishing blind, the lack of response from "fishy" spots, lethargic takes, refusals, etc. are indications it’s time to change. Also, if you’re fishing an attractor or some other pattern based on guess or history, and then you see another type of fly hatching, that’s a prescription to change instantly to match the hatch. If fish are rising, and you see swirls, watch carefully to see if the mouth or the back of the fish is causing the swirl.  If the latter, it’s an indication the fish are taking an emerger.  You’d then want to switch immediately to a wet fly, nymph, or emerger pattern. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink.

No, you don’t generally need to change a fly each time you catch a fish unless the fly is damaged.   Dry flies (so named because they float on the surface) depend on the surface tension of the water supporting the barbs of the hackle feathers.   Fish saliva (aka slime) will coat these feathers and prevent them from floating as designed.   Rinse off the fly, dry it (crystals, blow on it, false casting, etc.) and it’s good for another fish. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished?

The terminology generally refers to how it is tied, that is, how it is designed to be fished.   There are always, of course, exceptions.   A dry can easily be fished wet, but the reverse is unlikely. If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly?

No, it is a sunken dry fly. What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc.

That’s a lot of question to answer here.   In broad, maybe obvious terms, use a fly that matches what the fish are eating.   If they’re sipping insects off the surface, use a dry.   If you see them taking nymphs off the bottom, use a nymph.   If you can’t see fish at all, try "searching" with a streamer or attractor pattern in some likely holding spots.   There are dozens of books that can fill in the blanks on this.   I have and like "Prospecting for Trout" by Tom Rosenbauer (my only Orvis posession); but I have no doubt that others also have their favorites. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts)

There’s no hard and fast rule for me.   I change when I’ve lost confidence that what I’m using is right.   Even if a trout takes a good look at my fly and refuses it, I could be doing a half dozen other things wrong but still have the right fly.   If you’re sure you have no drag, the leader is invisible, the presentation is perfect and the fish hasn’t been spooked; but he still won’t take it, maybe it’s time to consider that the fly may be wrong.   As often as not though, I can’t blame the fly. What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns?

It really depends on where you fish and the common insects found there.   A few "universal" patters seem to be Hendrickson, Adams, and Royal Wulff dries, Hare’s Ear and Pheasant Tail nymphs, Woolly Buggers and Muddler Minnow streamers.   Many more to follow from others. Joe F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? thanks a lot -Max

Hi Max, You do not need to change the fly after every fish, only if it is slimed up or soaked through( Dry flies ). Fish slime will cause a dry fly to sink, and it must then be cleaned dried and re-dressed to get it to float again.  For wet flies this is not a problem, just washing the slime off suffices, as the fly is designed to sink. Wet flies are tied basically to sink, and dry flies are tied basically to float.  You can use a dry fly as a wet fly if you want to however.  How you designate the fly really depends on how you fish it, although some flies are tied specifically to float using certain materials, and would be difficult to use properly as wet flies. The same goes for many wet flies which are tied specifically to sink, even using weight such as lead wire etc to achieve better sinking properties, it would not be possible to use such a fly as a dry fly of course. If fish are taking well on the surface and you can match the hatch, then it is a good idea, and a lot of fun to fish dry flies.  If there is no obvious hatch and no or very few rises, then you will probably have more success with wet flies. There are no hard and fast rules for this, you can fish wet or dry flies whichever you prefer at the time. If you know that your fly is a good imitation, and it is working OK then there is no need to change it at all.  When to change is a matter of personal preference. if fish are rising and you are not catching any, then it may be a good idea to change to another pattern though. For a good list of general purpose patterns have a look at http://www.flyangleronline.com  and go to the beginners section from the main menu.   There is quite a lot of other info there which should help you as well. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? thanks a lot -Max

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Question:

: Can you help?  My brother-in-law enjoys flyfishing (mostly in Michigan where : he lives).  We will be vacationing together this August in Boothbay Harbor, : Maine and I would like to be able to point him to a good spot to go : flyfishing. : If you have any suggestions, I would be glad to pass them along.  He would : be most interested in a spot which would be an easy drive from Boothbay. : Thanks, : Bob LaMontagne : Cincinnati, OH The Atlantic Ocean. He can use his fresh water rod and 4 feet of 4 pound tippet with small clousers to catch macks and schoolies, which are likely to be 95%-100% of his hhok ups. If he hangs a big striper, he will have a hell of a great time trying to get him in. Tell him to be SURE to wash all his gear in fresh water after each trip. This means pop the spool out of the reel and wash all the rod guides.

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Boothbay has a number of ponds that are very good fishing. Smallmouth bass will readily take poppers and yellow deerhair bugs in the early morning and evening hours. If he wants to try ocean fly fishing, there are stripped Bass that run 12 to 40 inches, mackerel run 8 to 20 inches and Bluefish up to 25 pounds.     I f he wants landlocked salmon and brook trout, he’ll have to fish tiny dries or nymphs on bottom. If you need to know more or want to purchase flies designed for the fishing here, you can contact me at http://www.kynd.com/~ronmcq/fsf/fsf.html Ron McKusick Featherside Flies Corinna Maine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can you help?  My brother-in-law enjoys flyfishing (mostly in Michigan where he lives).  We will be vacationing together this August in Boothbay Harbor, Maine and I would like to be able to point him to a good spot to go flyfishing. If you have any suggestions, I would be glad to pass them along.  He would be most interested in a spot which would be an easy drive from Boothbay. Thanks, Bob LaMontagne Cincinnati, OH

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Can you help?  My brother-in-law enjoys flyfishing (mostly in Michigan where he lives).  We will be vacationing together this August in Boothbay Harbor, Maine and I would like to be able to point him to a good spot to go flyfishing.

Grand Lake Stream (between two lakes in Washington Cty.) has (or used to have) landlocked salmon and trout as well as bass and may be the closest to Mount Desert I.  Check whether any of the Atlantic salmon rivers in August, possibly the Dennys or Machias. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Can you help?  My brother-in-law enjoys flyfishing (mostly in Michigan where he lives).  We will be vacationing together this August in Boothbay Harbor, Maine and I would like to be able to point him to a good spot to go flyfishing. If you have any suggestions, I would be glad to pass them along.  He would be most interested in a spot which would be an easy drive from Boothbay. Thanks, Bob LaMontagne Cincinnati, OH

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Question:

For all those fans of the Loomis IMX Rods there is hope. Talked to Gary Loomis about the GL4 rods and he reccomends to underline the GL4 fly rods by one line weight; by doing this you will now have the IMX action.

Does this mean that by overlining my IMX by one weight I get a GL4 action? Great! Fish on, Allen

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For all those fans of the Loomis IMX Rods there is hope. Talked to Gary Loomis about the GL4 rods and he reccomends to underline the GL4 fly rods by one line weight; by doing this you will now have the IMX action. Does this mean that by overlining my IMX by one weight I get a GL4 action? Great! Fish on, Allen

Yes!  Not only that, but overlining a GL4 by two weights will give you a winston.  Overline by 3 weights… Instant Cane rod!  I love technology! Phil

Response:

For all those fans of the Loomis IMX Rods there is hope. Talked to Gary Loomis about the GL4 rods and he reccomends to underline the GL4 fly rods by one line weight; by doing this you will now have the IMX action. Tight Lines and Release ‘em Nick DelleDonne — Nick DelleDonne, Fly Fishing Consultant and Owner of: The Evening Rise Fly Angler’s Shop, 4182 Old Phila. Pike, PO Box 446 "Shop Located 3 Miles East of Intercourse, PA on Route 340"

Response:

Question:

I am new to fly fishing and plan to begin by fishing near some property I own in East Branch, NY.  I have the basics to begin (I think). Any suggestions on some good fishing sites in the area. I am just of exit 90 on Route 17. Thanks Jim

Response:

What do mean East Branch , NY ?  Is it near the East Branch of the Delaware?  If it is you should be pretty happy.  Just don’t expect to catch too many fish too soon.  It is very technical(hard) fishing and the trout are used to their meals being served on a silver platter.  Yur fly and cast need to be near perfect.  Try Fish’s Eddy to start with . Gordon I am new to fly fishing and plan to begin by fishing near some property I own in East Branch, NY.  I have the basics to begin (I think). Any suggestions on some good fishing sites in the area. I am just of exit 90 on Route 17. Thanks Jim

– Flyfish NC http://www.planet-nc.com/flyfishnc/ Striped Bass on the Roanoke River, Hybrids on Jordan Lake, Largemouths on surface.  Pickup and dropoff in Research Triangle Park

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Question:

In the Washington DC area: Brookside Gardens (Wheaton MD) is a nice smallish place, great in azalea season and interesting at other times too. Nice Japanese pavilion. And of course there is the National Arboretum in the District…. The bonsai collection is awesome, and the experience of walking under flowering azalea "trees" (mostly the original GlennDales, i believe) is indescribable (but get there EARLY). — NOTE: to reply you must remove the X at the end of the email address given above/below. Sorry about the inconvenience, but i am totally fed up with the tons of junk mail coming over the Net! Judy Karpen                        "The line between scientific genius and Naval Research Lab               line from The Brain that Wouldnt Die Washington DC                         garden: Zone 7 (Maryland) Do not send ANY commercial solicitations to this address!

Response:

David Fairchild Garden in Miami, Florida, while still recovering from Hurricane Andrew in 1992 is special and worth visiting.  The collection of tropical plants is wonderful.  In fact, after the hurricane, Fairchild Garden recieved letters from other botanical gardens all over the world with offers of seeds, plants, advice, and help to rebuild.

Response:

David Fairchild Garden in Miami, Florida, while still recovering from Hurricane Andrew in 1992 is special and worth visiting.  The collection of tropical plants is wonderful.  In fact, after the hurricane, Fairchild Garden recieved letters from other botanical gardens all over the world with offers of seeds, plants, advice, and help to rebuild.

Hi Julia I know it’s one of *my* favorite places as I can see things growing outside that I can find no other place in the Lower 48. Love it!! I haven’t been there since the hurricane. How’s it shaping up? What about the drive down Old Cutler Road? It used to be so pretty. hurricanes {:O( Paul and Roxanne Mitchell       USDA Zone 9b

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|   |   My question is what are the other top gardens in the U.S.? | | Well, I’m going to answer my own question.  I sent an email to | Bellingrath Gardens asking what the top gardens are.  They replied: | |   Bouchard |   Longview |   Callaway |   Biltmore |   Bellingrath I have seen the Biltmore Garden in Asheville, NC and it is very nice. I will also put in a plug for a couple of local (for me, that is) public gardens that I enjoy. Sarah P. Duke Memorial Gardens, Duke University Campus, Durham, NC Features a terrace garden with a huge Wisteria covered pergola and a good size lily pond, an asiatic arboretum, and the Bloomquist garden of native plants, which features showy plants native to the southeastern United States. North Carolina State University Arboretum – Raleigh, NC Features an incredible diversity of woody plants, a 300 foot long perennial border, a white garden, and various demonstration gardens. Jay

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The National Arboretum in Washington, DC (part of the Smithsonian Institutes, if I’m not mistaken)!!!!!!

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Fort Worth has a remarkable botanical garden with a Japanese water garden section.  Wonderful!  Visit if you can!   — Signed,    Kellie My Karma Ran Over My Dogma.  It was a catastrophe! Now my dogma’s dead and my karma’s out of alignment. Get in "Knee Deep"!     The Internet Pond Society      http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/newsletter.html

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The Missouri Botanical Garden is wonderful. More, they do internationally important research on plant species. The Missouri Botanical Garden has helped fund rainforest research, among other things. No, I don’t work there, but have very much enjoyed visiting. Their web site is: http://www.mobot.org/ I was just there last weekend, and it was stunning even in early spring. Don’t even get me started on the gift shop and it’s book selection….. — Robin, Jasper and Dreamer (my opinions are strictly my own!) Doberman page: http://www.hsc.missouri.edu/people/robin/

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I live in Montreal Canada and our Botanical Gardens are  quite impressive.  I have been informed that Montreal’s Botanical Gardens are the second largest in the world.  They include sections for: a) Perennials b) annuals c) Herbs d) Medicinal Plants e) Plants for commercial use (making dyes, rope, etc) f) poisonous plants g) alpine plants h) vegetables i) grains j) Many bushes k) a large arboretum with many types of trees l) a Chinese garden m) a Japanese garden n) an insectarium o) a butterfly pavilion (live butterflies in natural surroundings) p) a large greenhouse with collections of tropical plants, cacti and succulents from around the world) q) a bookstore with many titles in English and French If you are in Montreal a trip to the Botanical Gardens is a wothwhile experience. Bill (zone 4) Montreal

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I just returned from visiting Bellingrath Gardens which is south of Mobile, Alabama.  What a fabulous place and to think I found it almost by accident.  I definitely recommend visiting it!  In its brochure it lists itself as among the top 5 public gardens in the U.S.   My question is what are the other top gardens in the U.S.?  I want to see them all! Cindy in Indy zone 5

My favorite are right near me so I can visit often. It’s a school that lets folks just walk around. It has acres and acres of amazing things. Like . . . a walled garden with pretty flowers that you spot across the lawn. As you walk closer you can see down to another layer of flowers, closer, another. The darn thing is terriced down, and down, each layer beautifuly designed and reviels itself as you walk closer. The bottom is a tiny pond. Way cool, but forget I said this when you go there so you can be surprised! They have a nice web site you can find by the schools’ name. Niagara Parks Botanic School of Horticulture.It’s just north of Niagra Falls Onterio Canada. It also has a huge butterfly conservitory that just opened. Haven’t been there yet. If you travel for the garden, you get to see the falls too! Peggy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Huntington Botanical Gardens, San Marino, CA; Missouri Botanical Garden.

Response:

    My question is what are the other top gardens in the U.S.? Well, I’m going to answer my own question.  I sent an email to Bellingrath Gardens asking what the top gardens are.  They replied:   Bouchard   Longview   Callaway   Biltmore   Bellingrath Cindy in Indy zone 5

Response:

  My question is what are the other top gardens in the U.S.? Well, I’m going to answer my own question.  I sent an email to Bellingrath Gardens asking what the top gardens are.  They replied:   Bouchard   Longview   Callaway   Biltmore   Bellingrath

   A lot depends on what one defines as a "garden", or more importantly what type of garden you want to see.  There are gardens that have nice grounds, trees, and shrubbery (sometimes flowering in the spring), there are gardens with thousands of "set out" greenhouse plants, then there are gardens with perennial borders filled with thousands of different varieties selected and planned to grow in place.  I’m strongly biased in favor of the last on this list.   If "Bouchard" is Butchart Gardens on Vancouver Island then, because it relies heavily on set out plants, on "my" list it doesn’t even rank at the top of Vancouver gardens.  See http://www.phy.duke.edu/~fortney/tours/vancouver/vancouver.html for views of several gardens in that area and make your own judgement.  Of course, growing conditions in the NW give them an unfair advantage which they pay for with ten to eleven months of gray skies. — Lloyd Fortney http://www.phy.duke.edu/~fortney/ has links to my garden, flower, flyfishing, and travel JPEG images as well as teaching, research, and stuff like that

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I just returned from visiting Bellingrath Gardens which is south of Mobile, Alabama.  What a fabulous place My question is what are the other top gardens in the U.S.?  I want to see them all!

The Huntington in LA is sure worth a visit.  I especially enjoyed the cactus & succulent section. Scott http://users.uniserve.com/~lparker/    (SF stories & puzzles)

Response:

I don’t know if it’s rated one of the top gardens, but last year I went to the gardens outside of Chicago (the name escapes me right now). They were absolutely beautiful. I’m hoping to go back again this year soon so I can see the bulb garden in bloom! I think this one is a definite must see:) Michelle the earth was not given to us by our parents, it was lent to us by our children.                 -kenyan proverb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just returned from visiting Bellingrath Gardens which is south of Mobile, Alabama.  What a fabulous place and to think I found it almost by accident.  I definitely recommend visiting it!  In its brochure it lists itself as among the top 5 public gardens in the U.S.   My question is what are the other top gardens in the U.S.?  I want to see them all! Cindy in Indy zone 5

Response:

I just returned from visiting Bellingrath Gardens which is south of Mobile, Alabama.  What a fabulous place and to think I found it almost by accident.  I definitely recommend visiting it!  In its brochure it lists itself as among the top 5 public gardens in the U.S.   My question is what are the other top gardens in the U.S.?  I want to see them all! Cindy in Indy zone 5

Response:

My question is what are the other top gardens in the U.S.?  I want to see them all!

    The Chicago Botanical garden is big, varied, and has lots of perennials.  I certainly havn’t seen them all, and I’m strongly biased toward places with perennial borders, but this is by far the best I’ve run across in the US. — Lloyd Fortney http://www.phy.duke.edu/~fortney/ has links to my garden, flower, flyfishing, and travel JPEG images as well as teaching, research, and stuff like that

Response:

I just returned from visiting Bellingrath Gardens which is south of Mobile, Alabama.  What a fabulous place and to think I found it almost by accident.  I definitely recommend visiting it!  In its brochure it lists itself as among the top 5 public gardens in the U.S.   My question is what are the other top gardens in the U.S.?  I want to see them all! Cindy in Indy zone 5

I suggest Longwood Gardens outside of Philadelphia. Fabulous place!

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Question:

of course it does, it fits the rest of the profile. TimW

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I’ve been trying straighten out my subscription for months. Those people just seem clueless. Needless to say, I’ll not renew. AL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the hope that someone connected with that magazine reads this….. Every year our flyfishing club has a banquet. Every year, after spending umpteen bucks on raffle tickets, I wind up with a free subscription to Fly Fishing Magazine. Every year I send in the letter, and every year I don’t get squat! Well after 3 years of this I sent a letter to the magazine’s subscription dept. Guess what I got? A subscription to Horse and Rider! I know you’re laughing…..hey cut it out, I’m pissed off. I guess I’m saying, think twice before you subscribe to this magazine. Who knows if they’ll ever get it right.

Response:

In the hope that someone connected with that magazine reads this….. Every year our flyfishing club has a banquet. Every year, after spending umpteen bucks on raffle tickets, I wind up with a free subscription to Fly Fishing Magazine. Every year I send in the letter, and every year I don’t get squat! Well after 3 years of this I sent a letter to the magazine’s subscription dept. Guess what I got? A subscription to Horse and Rider! I know you’re laughing…..hey cut it out, I’m pissed off. I guess I’m saying, think twice before you subscribe to this magazine. Who knows if they’ll ever get it right.

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Question:

intersted in some info

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In general, I think we’re in for some pretty high water this spring. Nothing scientific to back this up, but the last time I was over was they already had the river up near summer flow. It was interesting to see the river run clear with so much water (no irrigation returns yet), but it was tough wading, especially when I was expecting nice, low winter flow.l

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Al- I think someone else has already gone through the bureaucratic stuff to submit for a fly tying newsgroup, and the application is being considered. I have seen several postings about it on this newsgroup, though I can’t remember the name of the person who is doing it. As I recall there will be an election period pretty soon when people register their votes by e-mailing the newsgroup folks.I would check it out before doing it yourself. Good Luck! (I love your tying wax!) Steve Rosenblum

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Al- I think someone else has already gone through the bureaucratic stuff to submit for a fly tying newsgroup, and the application is being considered. I have seen several postings about it on this newsgroup, though I can’t remember the name of the person who is doing it.

That would be me.  The official RFD period began Feb. 20 and we’ve got about a week to go.  Look for the Call-for-votes soon. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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I’m going to be doing some work around mile 120 of the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon later this month.  I’ve heard that there is reasonably good fishing above Navajo Bridge where the water’s pretty clear, but there has to be some decent fish in the lower sections.  Has anyone fished this area of the Colorado with any luck? George Tate

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You’ve got my support, and I’m sure most of the subscribers to THIS group! Just let us now how we can help support your endeavor!! Sean Clark Colorado

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Hi Dennis I guess we just keep plugging away and hope it comes to pass. The futher I get into it the more it seems like dealing with the government. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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Wow.  No repsonses to this yet?  I’m amazed!  Go for it, Al!  I for one would really like to see it.  As the ISP wars heat up, some are carrying more and more newsgroups, without allocating more disk space.  It’s good advertising, I’m sure, but it decreases the time before messages scroll off the disk, and become unavailable.  I think that the end result of a new newsgroup would help to alleviate that problem for a lot of people. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi fellow fly tiers, I just checked the "news.groups" and got the following information on starting a newsgroup: usenet/creating-newsgroups/part1." The information I read said it could take as long as three months to get a new group up and running. It is also very important to "vote" in the proper newsgroup. I’ll let this group know where and when after I receive my email from the above address. Maybe we will bet lucky! Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

– — Greg Metcalfe                         |  The secret is getting URL http://www.proaxis.com/~biosphere |        Usually.  

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Yo Al, I sincerely hope that it come to pass.  If there is anything that I can do to be of asistance, please contact me.  The fly fishing group seems to be getting worse every day.

How so?, being a "NEWBIE" I would hate to tick/piss-off/make angry any of the "ESTABLISHED" members of this forum. I don’t know how much longer I can take it. Yippi tie one on! AuSable1 (aka Dennis Potter)

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You’ve got my vote when you need it!

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Mine too.  I’ve sent a request to the AOL news group guru asking for one. Maybe this will help.

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Mine too.  I’ve sent a request to the AOL news group guru asking for one. Maybe this will help.

Not if we want a Usenet newsgroup in one of the standard seven hierarchies. The whole reason for following guidelines for new group creation is to prevent one site from creating "unofficial" groups.  You could probably get a chat room or something created on AOL but only AOL users would see it. I checked in news.groups and found out the deal regarding the RFD that I posted awhile back.  The Call-For-Votes must be posted withing 60 days of the end of the Request-For-Discussion period.  Since that is the case here I’m going to post a 2nd RFD.   Here is what will happen… I will post a RFD to news.groups with a crosspost to news.announce.newgroups, rec.outdoors.fishing, and it’s subgroups.  That will get the ball rolling once again.  I was told that for a 2nd RFD only a couple of weeks of discussion is necessary.   After the discussion period, *and* if there seems to be a consensus that a Call-For-Votes should be posted I’ll post the CFV to the same groups. The CFV will include an email address and instructions on how to vote. Once the voting period completes we will notified if the group passes or not (requires 100 more Yes votes than No votes).  If the group passes the group will be created a couple of weeks later. NOTE NOTE NOTE NOTE Posting that you vote "yes" (or no) to this newsgroup or any other is a waste of time.  The vote will not be counted.  I’ve mentioned this three times now but people continue to offer their votes.  I will repost the RFD after I send this message.  At that point the discussion period will begin again.  Once again, it will serve no purpose to post I vote yes for the flyfishing group here.  The discussion period is not for voting.  It is for discussion whether a Call-For-Votes should be posted and why or why not the creation of the group would be a good idea.   — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Question:

Hi Mike, Good to meet you. As you can see I changed the subject line, mostly out of pity for Kauffman’s who took more of a pounding than I intended.  I was miffed at them for the Ross reel deal, and for the "ambience" I and several others noticed there.  They were an example of the moment and not really the topic. Hmm, not sure what this means…it isn’t a business philosophy by the way, just a mild rant at wannabes without sufficient motivation to pursue the knowledge and skills necessary to fish well on their own…meaning self study, (flyfishing has one of the oldest and most extensive literary traditions of any of our contemporary outdoor sporting endeavors) or participating in the plethora of schools, clinics and clubs available.  

I don’t have a snappy come back for that.  You have a point that probably serves a particular class of flyfisher.  I would ask your indulgence in that I really ain’t met many ‘o them thar book larned experts out in the stream.  I musta been too bizzy buckin’ hay that day.  Ok, mea culpa. I’m the guy you are referring to.  I never spent a day in the library I could spend on the water.  I prefer lessons over coffee (in the morning) or with a beer (well, mornings too, if the mood takes me) with someone who’s fun to listen to and might have some lore to share. I doubt that any retailer begrudges a purchaser information about the product being sold…What I see (and hear) are buyers that expect more, specifically they DEMAND information that is gained only through experience and personal observation, they are into instant gratification and unwilling to spend the time and energy to understand the resource, make their own observations and apply whatever skills they have to the sport.  Showing someone how to cast or tie a leader is one thing,  expecting a salesperson to direct YOU out of the 100 or so people a day he/she waits on to good water is another.

I have to agree with you there, but…I’ve never seen this demanding type, and certainly hope I’ve never been taken for one.  In retrospect, I don’t know how I could be, as the shop we had been discussing normally didn’t have the time to find out.  We may be talking about two different things here.  I was talking about how to tie a knot – and my criticism was for the poor or total lack of grace in dealing with just such a request.  So if you can accept that some folks just don’t get the same time and attention for such trivial pieces of knowledge, then perhaps you can agree.  I sometimes wax sympathetic thinking on what it must be like to be a guide that has to put up with jerks you refer to. But then, I couldn’t turn my only vice into work, either.  Hats off to those can. I’ll tell you why.  They aren’t after your ability to sustain a living. They are starting out in a very intimidating sport, it is financially and   socially daunting to most." It isn’t my living, it is my avocation.  I am in no way associated with Kaufmans or any other shop, guide business or manufacturer.  "Financially and socially daunting"…is that what the attraction is?  Or is it your philosophical position that ignorance is financially and socially daunting?

Missed your meaning on that.  Maybe you missed mine.  I fell in love with fly fishing due to some mentoring of a good friend and an inexplicable form of self flagellation, I guess.  How do you describe what it’s like to catch a fish on a fly… eh, that’s a whole ‘nother thread.  If you’re an ignorant hayseed like me, you begin with a preconceived notion fly fishing is for effete in-bred snobs who prefer this to be a sport of exclusion.  So I’m a party crasher, excuuuuse me.  After many years of being dedicated to it, I’m happy to report most are just ordinary men and women who enjoy the beauty of the elements and the elegance of the application. "Now what do you think a customer who is starting out on a limited budget wants?  Well hell no, it’s not a guided trip to Christmas Island!   Encouragement, helpful detailed advice and your knowledge is what he needs." Now I get it, it isn’t important or interesting enough to spend any of your own time on so all you need to do is borrow someone else’s research…preferably without paying anything in time or cash.

Depends on whether you want him for a customer when he can afford it, I guess. Up to you.  Again, I hope we’re talking about two different people.  I wouldn’t expect you to suffer abuse or being ripped off.  I was talking about someone starting out, who wasn’t born with an Orvis in their mouth.  My wife and I are counting on hitting Christmas Island.  Guess who will get our business (or more to the point, who will not)? Few things get my burner going like the guardian of holy secrets of fly   fishing. When I graduated to a Fenwick Eagle rod, Berkly reel and a pair of Redball waders, I braved the Yellowstone.  I didn’t have a clue.  Talk about being intimidated.  Time was precious and I needed to know what and how to fish it.  So I went up to a guy and asked.  He eyeballed me up and down, gave me that "oooooh, what a big spender you are" look, and went back to tying on his fly without a word." Maybe that is the problem, you think there are "holy secrets of flyfishing", a magic grail that is a substitute for personal observation and experience. Maybe the gentleman on the Yellowstone was giving you his "oooooh no, another dude who thinks his time is too precious to do his homework and acquire the necessary skills before coming here" look.

Well, I guess we got each other pegged.  I never went and got my flyfishing Phd.  Hope I never do.

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Charlie,     Do have kids… in their 20s now and they give others space on the stream… Learned fishing manners by age 10 or so.                 Prof. 8x  

Response:

   We all better polish our social skills if we are going to keep, pursuing this wonderful pass time.  I can remember fishing Grand Lake Stream, Slate Run and even the Madison when I was the only person in sight, those days are GONE. I miss them but I’m learning to adapt by:  fishing mostly during the week, fishing water that is difficult to wade and (difficult to boat sometimes) from a specialized water craft, discovering places that have solitude and good fly fishing for different fish (smallmouth bass being my favorite other fish, ounce for ounce fights as good as any trout I’ve ever met.)    And although I’m a loner in many ways I’ve enjoyed interacting with other fisherman as I’ve grown up.  In fact last week and weekend I was on the Halston in Tenn. and it was fairly busy (sulfurs in mid day and all that) and I was impressed with the courtesy and friendship displayed by the east Tenn. folks (Like why don’t you try that 20" brown he’s got me stumped !!)   You had to duck flying hardware on the weekend but the local fly fisherman were very nice. Hats off to them.                                           regards leo

Response:

: Isn’t there any one that goes fishing with an expectation of at least a : modicum of privacy and soltitude?  Apparently the current generation of : fly fishermen not only doesn’t understand the basic courtesy involved in : letting whoever is in the water fish it undisturbed, they also think that : a fishing license also entitles them to race up and down the stream : asking everyone "what are they takin" or "howzit goin?"  and invade the : space of others verbally if not physically.   Well, there you go.  Wanna talk sociology?  Most, not all, good streams are located in rural areas.  In rural areas, it is considered rude to *not* acknowledge the presence of another.  I know this is not true in the urban environment, but it is proper behavior on most streams.  (Unless there are bank to bank fisherfolk, and if that is the case, why are you there?) Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

Response:

For every jerk out there who ignores you there are a 100 who are willing to share what they know. Ignore the jerks and keep looking. Bill A.

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: asking everyone "what are they takin" or "howzit goin?"  and invade the : space of others verbally if not physically.   : that disturbing every streamside stranger with inane comments and : inquiries.  Why on earth do you think I should find my conversation with :                   :                                     Prof. 8x ‘ Hmmm, no kids, eh, Prof? :^) Charley

Response:

Isn’t there any one that goes fishing with an expectation of at least a modicum of privacy and soltitude?  Apparently the current generation of fly fishermen not only doesn’t understand the basic courtesy involved in letting whoever is in the water fish it undisturbed, they also think that a fishing license also entitles them to race up and down the stream asking everyone "what are they takin" or "howzit goin?"  and invade the space of others verbally if not physically.   Suggest that a number of you try bowling or perhaps joining a tractor pull fan club as those activities seem more in keeping with your ideas of appropriate streamside conduct.  Comradeship/fellowship involves more that disturbing every streamside stranger with inane comments and inquiries.  Why on earth do you think I should find my conversation with the fish when I am in the stream less important that whatever it is you want to interrupt me with?  Do you exhibit the same rudeness to your associates or strangers in the office or at a cocktail party?                                       Prof. 8x

Response:

Give Propps shop a try in Spokane.  Those guys will talk for hours and then walk away from a sale.  I’ve seen it happen a couple times. Rick

Hi, Rick. John Propp?  Nice guy.  I met him at Brown’s a year or two ago.  He said he built rods, but I had no idea he had a shop.  How’d I miss that?  Where is it at? Thanks, -Dick

Response:

Hi Mike, Good to meet you. As you can see I changed the subject line, mostly out of pity for Kauffman’s who took more of a pounding than I intended.  I was miffed at them for the Ross reel deal, and for the "ambience" I, and judging my most of the other responses, several others notice there.  They were an example of the moment and not really the topic. Hmm, not sure what this means…it isn’t a business philosophy by the way, just a mild rant at wannabes without sufficient motivation to pursue the knowledge and skills necessary to fish well on their own…meaning self study, (flyfishing has one of the oldest and most extensive literary traditions of any of our contemporary outdoor sporting endeavors) or participating in the plethora of schools, clinics and clubs available.  

I don’t have a snappy come back for that.  You have a point that probably serves a particular class of flyfisher.  I would ask your indulgence in that I really ain’t met many ‘o them thar book larned experts out in the stream.  I musta been too bizzy buckin’ hay that day.  Ok, mea culpa. I’m the guy you are referring to.  I never spent a day in the library I could of spent on the water.  I prefer lessons over coffee (in the morning) or with a beer (well, mornings too, if the mood takes me) with someone who’s fun to listen to and might have some lore to share. I doubt that any retailer begrudges a purchaser information about the product being sold…What I see (and hear) are buyers that expect more, specifically they DEMAND information that is gained only through experience and personal observation, they are into instant gratification and unwilling to spend the time and energy to understand the resource, make their own observations and apply whatever skills they have to the sport.  Showing someone how to cast or tie a leader is one thing,  expecting a salesperson to direct YOU out of the 100 or so people a day he/she waits on to good water is another.

I have to agree with you there, but…I’ve never seen this demanding type, and certainly hope I’ve never been taken for one.  In retrospect, I don’t know how I could be, as the shop we had been discussing normally didn’t have the time to find out.  We may be talking about two different things here.  I was talking about how to tie a knot – and my criticism was for the poor or total lack of grace in dealing with just such a request.  So if you can accept that some folks just don’t get the same time and attention for such trivial pieces of knowledge, then perhaps you can agree.  I sometimes wax sympathetic thinking on what it must be like to be a guide that has to put up with jerks you refer to. But then, I couldn’t turn my only vice into work, either.  Hats off to those can. I’ll tell you why.  They aren’t after your ability to sustain a living. They are starting out in a very intimidating sport, it is financially and   socially daunting to most." It isn’t my living, it is my avocation.  I am in no way associated with Kaufmans or any other shop, guide business or manufacturer.  "Financially and socially daunting"…is that what the attraction is?  Or is it your philosophical position that ignorance is financially and socially daunting?

Missed your meaning on that.  Maybe you missed mine.  I fell in love with fly fishing due to some mentoring of a good friend and an inexplicable form of self flagelation, I guess.  How do you describe what it’s like to catch a fish on a fly… eh, that’s a whole ‘nother thread.  If you’re an ignorant hayseed like me, you begin with a preconceived notion fly fishing is for effete in-bred snobs who prefer this to be a sport of exclusion.  So I’m a party crasher, excuuuuse me.  After many years of being dedicated to it, I’m happy to report most are just ordinary men and women who enjoy the beauty of the elements and the elegance of the application. "Now what do you think a customer who is starting out on a limited budget wants?  Well hell no, it’s not a guided trip to Christmas Island!   Encouragement, helpful detailed advice and your knowledge is what he needs." Now I get it, it isn’t important or interesting enough to spend any of your own time on so all you need to do is borrow someone else’s research…preferably without paying anything in time or cash.

Depends on whether you want him for a customer when he can afford it, I guess. Up to you.  Again, I hope we’re talking about two different people.  I wouldn’t expect you to suffer abuse or being ripped off.  I was talking about someone starting out, who wasn’t born with an Orvis in their mouth.  My wife and I are counting on hitting Christmas Island.  Guess who will get our business (or more to the point, who will not)?

Response:

[bandwidthectomy] : Now to take on your detractor: : I’ll tell you why.  They aren’t after your ability to sustain a living.  They : are starting out in a very intimidating sport, it is financially and : socially daunting to most.  I’ll bet they only bought the outlandishly : over priced flies to force you into a few seconds of hopeful conversation. Well put.  I can’t agree with Mike on this one, although it marks a first.  Guiding, like ffishing, is a career (or hobby) that should be built over years.  The good guide is always guiding and eventually he or she will be paid well for it.  And besides, you don’t just hang a sign up and declare yourself a guide worth hiring.  A bit like consulting…I had to give away a lot of free advice before anyone thought it worth paying for.  Same with teaching.  Should I simply ignore the poor students and focus on the ones I figure will succeed?  Many do, but I think not.  And for what it is worth, I think this is a good discussion.  I don’t want to wallow in sexist BS here, but I love a good sports shop.  Hang out and talk fishing with the guys.  Why does it matter what car one drives (to the shop, that is…I still say it is a goofball that drives a $30K car down a dusty, broken road and parks next to a stream.) : Yakima or the Silver Bow in Spokane.   Give Propps shop a try in Spokane.  Those guys will talk for hours and then walk away from a sale.  I’ve seen it happen a couple times. Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

Response:

I have been looking for a good dependable fly-shop; however, I   have been warned against Kaufmans, as they were described as   being too uptight and impersonal. Not everybody. Talk to Rod. Steer clear of john hazen. he’s a wealth of information, but only willing to talk to big spenders or people who impress him that they know what they’re doing already. (I’ve fooled him a Sean Williams Student, Teacher, Angler Portland, Ore., USA

Actually, believe you mean John HaZEL.  There is a John HaZEN, but he works at the Valley Flyfisher in Salem.  You might be a bit more charitable in your analysis by substituting " regular customers with a long term relationship with the firm" or "buyers" as opposed to "big spenders".  Why is it that some buyers always expect to obtain years of hard earned experience for the price of a few flies without paying for it by spending their own time or hiring a guide…who by the way, has nothing to sell except his hard earned knowledge.   Probably the same people that sidle up to the doctor or lawyer a cocktail party and expect a diagnosis.  

Response:

Actually, believe you mean John HaZEL.  There is a John HaZEN, but he works at the Valley Flyfisher in Salem.  

You’re right. Apologies to john hazen You might be a bit more charitable in your analysis by substituting " regular customers with a long term relationship with the firm" or "buyers" as opposed to "big spenders".

Well, yes and no. I agree that "big spenders" is perjoritive, but I can think of several situations when a buyer will be laying out big bucks on a new system, or people going on one of the travel packages will be in the store. Often, this is someone new to fishing, who wants (deserves?) special attention to accompany the large purchase. At those times, I can forget about receiving any service. And maybe rightly so. However, although my criticisms might have been unfair or harsh, they are not far from the truth.  Why is it that some buyers always expect to obtain years of hard earned experience for the price of a few flies without paying for it by spending their own time or hiring a guide…who by the way, has nothing to sell except his hard earned knowledge.   Probably the same people that sidle up to the doctor or lawyer a cocktail party and expect a diagnosis.  

Now its your turn to be a bit more charitable.  My statements were intended for a new angler who needs advice from professionals like those at Kaufmann’s. I think unfair to call their shop staff snobbish, because I don’t think it is, even john hazel.  On the other hand, I have seen people get the short end of the stick while in there. John and the others aren’t there by accident