Question:

Does anyone know of any flyfishing spots in Spain around Granada? Thanks. Al

Response:

Does anyone know of any flyfishing spots in Spain around Granada? Thanks. Al

Try the Rio Frio, west of Granada near Loja. JR

Response:

Al: Drop Tino an email and see ifhe can help you. He’s somewhere up in the mountains in Spain.

Response:

Havve a look at http://www.cybertrout.com./spain.htm http://usuarios.futurnet.es/m/marlin/index.htm http://www.caldea.com/fish/andfishi.html

Does anyone know of any flyfishing spots in Spain around Granada? Thanks.

Al

Response:

Question:

 when i lived in tx, everyone just assumed that if you had interaction with any wild animal, BAM, it was rabies time.  

BAM pretty much describes the typical Texan’s wild animal interactions, doesn’t it<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Wolfgang, and others.. let me add just one more bit of info, not definitive, but what the hell quote " Since 1980, 17 of 32 cases of human rabies in the United States have been associated with bat-related virus variants. Noteworthy, only one of these patients had a definite bite history. These cases and recent findings suggest that limited or insignificant physical contact with rabid bats may cause infection, even without a clear history of animal bite. " (this from Center for diseas control and precention, http://www.cdc.gov/od/oc/media/fact/rabies.htm   ) while all told, it is a very small numer of total cases, it is a signifacnt percentage of that total. All told however, I suspect that wolfgang is correct in noting that bats wont get ya sick. and for the record, I think bats are very cool, and have had, not now but in the past, bat boxes set up in my yard. cheers, edwin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ok, so let me be the paranoid one.. but…. I hope you didnt actually touch the bat with your fingers.  In most parts of the US, it is assumed that any bat one comes in contact with has rabies, and unless you can be sure otherwise, rabies treatment is in order… very alarmist, of course.. but hey, why risk it… probably nothing to worry about tho. Bats are no more likely than any other mammal to carry rabies.  They also happen to be highly susceptible to the effects of the disease once they contract it.  In other words, once they are infected they succumb rather quickly, thus making them less likely than other animals to pass it on.  The notion that bats are high risk rabies transmitters is just another of the many unsupported myths surrounding these most useful  and interesting animals.

Response:

Charlie, Almost.  I believe the word you were looking for was BANG. cheers, edwin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  when i lived in tx, everyone just assumed that if you had interaction with any wild animal, BAM, it was rabies time. BAM pretty much describes the typical Texan’s wild animal interactions, doesn’t it<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Almost.  I believe the word you were looking for was BANG.

Depends on the caliber<g. — Charlie…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wolfgang, and others.. let me add just one more bit of info, not definitive, but what the hell quote " Since 1980, 17 of 32 cases of human rabies in the United States have been associated with bat-related virus variants. Noteworthy, only one of these patients had a definite bite history. These cases and recent findings suggest that limited or insignificant physical contact with rabid bats may cause infection, even without a clear history of animal bite. " (this from Center for diseas control and precention, http://www.cdc.gov/od/oc/media/fact/rabies.htm   ) while all told, it is a very small numer of total cases, it is a signifacnt percentage of that total. All told however, I suspect that wolfgang is correct in noting that bats wont get ya sick. and for the record, I think bats are very cool, and have had, not now but in the past, bat boxes set up in my yard.

Very interesting.  This is the first I have ever heard about the possible transmission of rabies without a bite, and it does change the equation considerably.  Despite the irrational fear and dread so many people feel for bats, I suspect that they are more frequently handled than most other wild mammals.  Very few people are likely to handle a wild raccoon or skunk for example, regardless of the possibility of the animal being rabid, because of the comparatively high likelihood of being bitten.  Bats, on the other hand, are typically very small and much less formidable.  And, since they are frequently found in relatively large numbers in and around people’s yards, not to mention trout streams, contact must be more frequent. No reasonable person would recommend handling bats or any other wild animals unnecessarily.  And, of course, when handling bats is deemed necessary (for example, when one has gotten hold of your last good hex imitation) it should be done while wearing heavy leather gloves.  Nevertheless, as you pointed out, the risk is small enough that bats should not be stigmatized and persecuted as they so often are. I put up a bat box on a friend’s house about three years ago.  Unfortunately, the yard is heavily shaded, and there is no good place to put a box to take advantage of early morning sunshine which, I have read, is a necessary condition for attracting the bats.

Response:

Taste good they do.  I used to fish for them at night (they are very active at night), when they often come into shallower water, with diving Rapalas.  Good fun.  Interestingly, we used to see bats flying over our heads. I believe some call walleye yellow pike??? Walleye have to be about the most misnamed fish there is. They’re members of the perch family. Walleye fishing is like a religion in Minnesota, but I didn’t much care for them when I lived there. They don’t fight hard and you have to fish deep. Live minnows and jigs work best. They taste good, though. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

– Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

So, what happened to the bat?

He floated off the swim deck and out into the lake a few minutes after I put him down.  He was still alive as near as I could tell. Natty

Response:

ok, so let me be the paranoid one.. but…. I hope you didnt actually touch the bat with your fingers.  In most parts of the US, it is assumed that any bat one comes in contact with has rabies, and unless you can be sure otherwise, rabies treatment is in order… very alarmist, of course.. but hey, why risk it… probably nothing to worry about tho. edwin

I appreciate your concern….I put on a pair of thick neoprene  (sealz skin type) gloves before I handled him.  His little mouth was going a mile a minute trying to get a bite! Natty

Response:

So, what happened to the bat? He floated off the swim deck and out into the lake a few minutes after I put him down.  He was still alive as near as I could tell.

Eek!  I read somewhere long ago that ALL animals can swim……but I don’t know….bats?…..emus?…..or are they still extinct?….hm….. Wolfgang

Response:

So, what happened to the bat? He floated off the swim deck and out into the lake a few minutes after I put him down.  He was still alive as near as I could tell.

Bats are nothing. My fishing partner caught an albatross at Christmas Island, and I have the photo to prove it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

you have a better chance of getting rabbies from a cow

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ok, so let me be the paranoid one.. but…. I hope you didnt actually touch the bat with your fingers.  In most parts of the US, it is assumed that any bat one comes in contact with has rabies, and unless you can be sure otherwise, rabies treatment is in order… very alarmist, of course.. but hey, why risk it… probably nothing to worry about tho. edwin I appreciate your concern….I put on a pair of thick neoprene  (sealz skin type) gloves before I handled him.  His little mouth was going a mile a minute trying to get a bite! Natty

Response:

Yeah, really, and we all know rabbies don’t eat anything that’s not kosher. you have a better chance of getting rabbies from a cow

– Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

[snipped a batty story] Natty

Natty – question. What’s a pickerel? In the Great White North, we call walleye, pickerel.  Is this a pike in your part of the world? Peter

Response:

Natty – question. What’s a pickerel? In the Great White North, we call walleye, pickerel.  Is this a pike in your part of the world?

Yes, pickerel are a member of the pike family though plain pickerel are usually smaller than walleye.  There are a few types but the one I most commonly run into is just a plain pickerel or sometimes referred to as a grass pickerel (not to be confused with a chain pickerel which is much larger and a highly sought after game fish).  They have rounded, elongated bodies with a kind of flat, duck billed head/mouth. They are sort of greenish in color with dark brown/black thick vertical stripes that stretch from the top of their backs to about 2/3 down to the belly.  Oh yea, don’t mess with the teeth.  They are like daggers and can leave a permanent scar (told from experience).  They are a fun fish to catch, very strong and fast swimmers  though not at all acrobatic.  Once hooked they mostly try to go deep or straight away… I’ve never seen one jump. For more of a textbook type description check out http://members.tripod.com/~huntingfishing/grasspickerel.htm I don’t know what family of fish walleye are in (or if they are related to the pike or pickerel.  That’s pretty interesting though that walleye are called pickerel in your neck of the woods.  I’m gong to do some research..you’ve peaked my interest. Natty

Response:

forgot – many years ago I caught a big northern while trolling and it did a tail walk right in front of an old couple sitting in a row boat, worm dunking for perch.  Shocked the hell out of ‘em.   They’re not shy about leaving the water, here.

Boy would I love to hook a nice northern!  That must have been some show that fish gave those folks.  Last year while on a hunting trip near Shefferville I passed on a chance to go out with one of the local natives and a few others for northerns.  I was having so much fun catching speckled trout (thats what the camp cook called them) out of a canoe in the lake right in camp that I didn’t want to leave.  After two more days of catching and releasing about 100 of these beatiful little trout I wish I had gone out for a chance at the big guys. Don’t know why I’ve never seen a pickerel jump.  Maybe the way I played them or maybe that’s just a difference between the pickerel and their bigger cousing the northerns.  I have seen shows and pictures with northerns doing the tail walk, just never been lucky enough to have a pickerel do one for me. Natty

Response:

A friend invited me out on his boat for a nighttime fishing outing specifically to land walleye.  His boat, a beautiful 18 footer, is docked at a nearby lake which is the largest lake in the state.  Years ago the state decided to stock walleye and tiger muskies to add to the pickerel, channel cats, bass and other abundant species of game fish in the hopes of creating a world class trophy lake….they’ve succeeded to a degree. We set out just after dark, despite a sporadic misty rain. The water was like glass and it was quite warm and as a result, the pvc rain suit was a bit uncomfortable.  My friend had a ready supply of herring for bait which had been working for him the last few weeks.  I was eager to try out the new Okuma 5/6 disc drag on my old Fenwick 6 wt. in a setting that was completely unchartered for me.  Thanks to Walt, I also had some very nice streamers which are quite convincing herring imitations and a few clousers in varying colors and sizes.  Another first for me was the addition of a 4ft, lead core braided sink tip added onto my WF-F6 line.  I anticipated quite a different casting experience between the sink tip and the heavy streamer….chuck and duck! We got to our spot, the mist had stopped and my rig was all ready to fish.  A few false casts to get some line out and MAN, this was different!  That darn sink tip was really loading the rod and it made the streamers feel even heavier than they were.  After a minute or two of fooling around with the casting stroke and timing, I had it down well enough to be functional. My friend had his two poles already in rod holders with the baitfish doing their jobs well under the surface.  He was now engaged in lighting a cigar and tending to the cooler full of ale.  I on the other hand, was working the streamer and dealing with the sink tip during the casts. Thirty minutes into the fishing and visibility was now about 3 feet. A dense fog had descended on the water and the mist picked up again. Our Coleman fluorescent lanterns seemed to be the only visible light anywhere on the huge lake. It was quite a setting.  I noticed the line had become even harder to cast so I brought it in for a check.  Ah, no wonder….a clump of weeds were on the streamer.  As I brought the streamer to hand it emitted a screech and shook violently.  AAGGGHH, it nearly sent me to the deck as I stumbled over the bait bucket.  It was a bat!  Apparently, during a false cast this bat thought he had hit the mother load of juicy bugs and swooped in for the kill.  He wasn’t hooked but the leader had wrapped around him and he was subject to at least 2 or 3 more casts and being drug through the water as bait before I realized something was amiss.  I carefully unwrapped him and placed him on the swim platform on the back of the boat where he sat dazed but alive. Throughout the rest of the evening neither of us managed to catch a walleye.  I did catch two decent pickerel (the Okuma disc drag was up to the task)and my friend caught a huge catfish on the herring. Still, nothing will ever compare to my first terrestrial! Natty

Response:

wolfgang, now now.. dont get bent out of shape.  I noted i was assuming the most possibly alarmist role I could. I suppose that it also depends on where one lives.. in the "rabies belt" of the US, people make all kinds of assumptions about wild animals having rabies.  when i lived in tx, everyone just assumed that if you had interaction with any wild animal, BAM, it was rabies time.  likely not the same assumptions elsewhere. cheers, edwin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ok, so let me be the paranoid one.. but…. I hope you didnt actually touch the bat with your fingers.  In most parts of the US, it is assumed that any bat one comes in contact with has rabies, and unless you can be sure otherwise, rabies treatment is in order… very alarmist, of course.. but hey, why risk it… probably nothing to worry about tho. Bats are no more likely than any other mammal to carry rabies.  They also happen to be highly susceptible to the effects of the disease once they contract it.  In other words, once they are infected they succumb rather quickly, thus making them less likely than other animals to pass it on.  The notion that bats are high risk rabies transmitters is just another of the many unsupported myths surrounding these most useful  and interesting animals.

Response:

ok, so let me be the paranoid one.. but…. I hope you didnt actually touch the bat with your fingers.  In most parts of the US, it is assumed that any bat one comes in contact with has rabies, and unless you can be sure otherwise, rabies treatment is in order… very alarmist, of course.. but hey, why risk it… probably nothing to worry about tho. edwin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend invited me out on his boat for a nighttime fishing outing specifically to land walleye.  His boat, a beautiful 18 footer, is docked at a nearby lake which is the largest lake in the state.  Years ago the state decided to stock walleye and tiger muskies to add to the pickerel, channel cats, bass and other abundant species of game fish in the hopes of creating a world class trophy lake….they’ve succeeded to a degree. We set out just after dark, despite a sporadic misty rain. The water was like glass and it was quite warm and as a result, the pvc rain suit was a bit uncomfortable.  My friend had a ready supply of herring for bait which had been working for him the last few weeks.  I was eager to try out the new Okuma 5/6 disc drag on my old Fenwick 6 wt. in a setting that was completely unchartered for me.  Thanks to Walt, I also had some very nice streamers which are quite convincing herring imitations and a few clousers in varying colors and sizes.  Another first for me was the addition of a 4ft, lead core braided sink tip added onto my WF-F6 line.  I anticipated quite a different casting experience between the sink tip and the heavy streamer….chuck and duck! We got to our spot, the mist had stopped and my rig was all ready to fish.  A few false casts to get some line out and MAN, this was different!  That darn sink tip was really loading the rod and it made the streamers feel even heavier than they were.  After a minute or two of fooling around with the casting stroke and timing, I had it down well enough to be functional. My friend had his two poles already in rod holders with the baitfish doing their jobs well under the surface.  He was now engaged in lighting a cigar and tending to the cooler full of ale.  I on the other hand, was working the streamer and dealing with the sink tip during the casts. Thirty minutes into the fishing and visibility was now about 3 feet. A dense fog had descended on the water and the mist picked up again. Our Coleman fluorescent lanterns seemed to be the only visible light anywhere on the huge lake. It was quite a setting.  I noticed the line had become even harder to cast so I brought it in for a check.  Ah, no wonder….a clump of weeds were on the streamer.  As I brought the streamer to hand it emitted a screech and shook violently.  AAGGGHH, it nearly sent me to the deck as I stumbled over the bait bucket.  It was a bat!  Apparently, during a false cast this bat thought he had hit the mother load of juicy bugs and swooped in for the kill.  He wasn’t hooked but the leader had wrapped around him and he was subject to at least 2 or 3 more casts and being drug through the water as bait before I realized something was amiss.  I carefully unwrapped him and placed him on the swim platform on the back of the boat where he sat dazed but alive. Throughout the rest of the evening neither of us managed to catch a walleye.  I did catch two decent pickerel (the Okuma disc drag was up to the task)and my friend caught a huge catfish on the herring. Still, nothing will ever compare to my first terrestrial! Natty

Response:

I believe some call walleye yellow pike??? Thanks – sounds like what we’d call grass pike and northern pike – the grass pike being the smaller.  Here, pickerel are walleye – same fish – different name.  Some of the Canadian TV fishing personalities have been using the American terms and the name ‘pickerel’ is starting to fall into disuse.

Regards, Jeff

Response:

[snip] Thanks – sounds like what we’d call grass pike and northern pike – the grass pike being the smaller.  Here, pickerel are walleye – same fish – different name.  Some of the Canadian TV fishing personalities have been using the American terms and the name ‘pickerel’ is starting to fall into disuse. Peter

Response:

forgot – many years ago I caught a big northern while trolling and it did a tail walk right in front of an old couple sitting in a row boat, worm dunking for perch.  Shocked the hell out of ‘em.   They’re not shy about leaving the water, here. Peter

Response:

I believe some call walleye yellow pike???

Walleye have to be about the most misnamed fish there is. They’re members of the perch family. Walleye fishing is like a religion in Minnesota, but I didn’t much care for them when I lived there. They don’t fight hard and you have to fish deep. Live minnows and jigs work best. They taste good, though. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – forgot – many years ago I caught a big northern while trolling and it did a tail walk right in front of an old couple sitting in a row boat, worm dunking for perch.  Shocked the hell out of ‘em.   They’re not shy about leaving the water, here. Boy would I love to hook a nice northern!  That must have been some show that fish gave those folks.  Last year while on a hunting trip near Shefferville I passed on a chance to go out with one of the local natives and a few others for northerns.  I was having so much fun catching speckled trout (thats what the camp cook called them) out of a canoe in the lake right in camp that I didn’t want to leave.  After two more days of catching and releasing about 100 of these beatiful little trout I wish I had gone out for a chance at the big guys. Don’t know why I’ve never seen a pickerel jump.  Maybe the way I played them or maybe that’s just a difference between the pickerel and their bigger cousing the northerns.  I have seen shows and pictures with northerns doing the tail walk, just never been lucky enough to have a pickerel do one for me.

The pickerel we catch in New England have the "jump, shake, and toss the hook" move down to a science… /daytripper

Response:

ok, so let me be the paranoid one.. but…. I hope you didnt actually touch the bat with your fingers.  In most parts of the US, it is assumed that any bat one comes in contact with has rabies, and unless you can be sure otherwise, rabies treatment is in order… very alarmist, of course.. but hey, why risk it… probably nothing to worry about tho.

Bats are no more likely than any other mammal to carry rabies.  They also happen to be highly susceptible to the effects of the disease once they contract it.  In other words, once they are infected they succumb rather quickly, thus making them less likely than other animals to pass it on.  The notion that bats are high risk rabies transmitters is just another of the many unsupported myths surrounding these most useful  and interesting animals.

Response:

<snipped interesting tale of chiropteran catch So, what happened to the bat? Wolfgang fledermaus fan

Response:

Question:

Hello, I’m new to this group and just wanted to introduce myself. My name is Tim Apple, I’m from Rockford Illinois. I’ve been on only a few excursions lasting over a week(excluding my time in the army). Due to my work schedule, it’s mostly weekend trips. And most of my trips are usually by water cuz my true love is FlyFishing. But in general would go anywhere. Just wanted to say hello. Tim Apple "Is a mirage real? Well it’s a real mirage." – Ed Abbey

Response:

Hello, I’m new to this group and just wanted to introduce myself. My name is Tim Apple, I’m from Rockford Illinois. I’ve been on only a few excursions lasting over a week(excluding my time in the army). Due to my work schedule, it’s mostly weekend trips. And most of my trips are usually by water cuz my true love is FlyFishing. But in general would go anywhere. Just wanted to say hello.

    Well, High. :^) Sam (Hi, Higher, Heist) Sands – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tim Apple "Is a mirage real? Well it’s a real mirage." – Ed Abbey

Response:

Hello Tim, If you find any good places to go, let me know.  My son and I are just starting to get into backpacking.  We are in the Dundee/Elgin area.  Rick. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I’m new to this group and just wanted to introduce myself. My name is Tim Apple, I’m from Rockford Illinois. I’ve been on only a few excursions lasting over a week(excluding my time in the army). Due to my work schedule, it’s mostly weekend trips. And most of my trips are usually by water cuz my true love is FlyFishing. But in general would go anywhere. Just wanted to say hello.     Well, High. :^) Sam (Hi, Higher, Heist) Sands Tim Apple "Is a mirage real? Well it’s a real mirage." – Ed Abbey

Response:

bye — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

Response:

Question:

I will be fishing the Deshutes in Mid-Sept and would like some advice on flies that I can use for both Rainbows and Steelheads.  Thanks Tony

Response:

Bring your standard dry and nymph boxes to cover mayflies etc Other folks will give you the lowdown. Ive just two suggest ions: 1. Crayfish, whatever pattern including G.P. 2. The Kaufman (www.kman.com) series ie, Freight train, Coalcar, Max canyon, signal lite etc. These were designed on the Deschutes. Its the kind of thing that independents do and Orvis doesn’t, and hasn’t for 60-70 years.  The Burlap is also a Deschutes standard. There’s also an independent  fly shop at Maupin if you go in at that side. Also don’t ignore the approach from the Columbia side. Dave

Response:

I will be fishing the Deshutes in Mid-Sept and would like some advice on flies that I can use for both Rainbows and Steelheads.  Thanks Tony

–A fly that will catch both rainbows and steelhead is a weighted black wooley bugger.  If your going just for steelhead use something with purple in it, my favorite is a freight train.  For trout I like a elk hair catis. Sharp Hooks, Pat http://www.holdzit.com Holdzit Fishing Products Inc. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

A good source of information is the Oasis Resort in Maupin, Oregon.  Mark and Marnie operate the business sale a ton of flies to the fishermen and glean the day-to-day knowledge. (541)395-2528.  I supply a few major Deschutes River guides flies and they pretty much stick to stimulators, caddis flies, Adams Parachutes, bead head Prince Nymphs, bead head Hare’s Ear Nymphs, and Bead Head Pheasant Tail Nymphs.  If you are looking for a good source of flies and discounted prices for your trip, give me a call/email. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be fishing the Deshutes in Mid-Sept and would like some advice on flies that I can use for both Rainbows and Steelheads.  Thanks Tony –A fly that will catch both rainbows and steelhead is a weighted black wooley bugger.  If your going just for steelhead use something with purple in it, my favorite is a freight train.  For trout I like a elk hair catis. Sharp Hooks, Pat http://www.holdzit.com Holdzit Fishing Products Inc. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

I was hoping that someone out there might have some information about flyfishing in Brazil. I was thinking of travelling to either Pantanal or Rio Grande do Sul.  I am really beginning my quest, so if anyone can suggest any other areas please let me know. I believe that the Dorado is much fished for as well as the peacock bass in the Amazon, does anyone know of other species? Thank you for your help. Nick Palliser

Response:

Nick Try asking on rec.outdoors.fishing.fly which is a mainly US based NG, you should get some good info there, if they can tear themselves away from the catch and release debate for long enough — Regards, Peter Remove nospam to e-mail www.yachthawkwind.demon.co.uk/peters.htm "We are chosen, we are one  We are frightened of no-one" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was hoping that someone out there might have some information about flyfishing in Brazil. I was thinking of travelling to either Pantanal or Rio Grande do Sul.  I am really beginning my quest, so if anyone can suggest any other areas please let me know. I believe that the Dorado is much fished for as well as the peacock bass in the Amazon, does anyone know of other species? Thank you for your help. Nick Palliser

Response:

Nick: I lived in Bolivia last year.  There is a large fish called Serubi(spelling is wrong) that would be a challenge to catch on a fly rig.  But if you do your in for some good eating! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was hoping that someone out there might have some information about flyfishing in Brazil. I was thinking of travelling to either Pantanal or Rio Grande do Sul.  I am really beginning my quest, so if anyone can suggest any other areas please let me know. I believe that the Dorado is much fished for as well as the peacock bass in the Amazon, does anyone know of other species? Thank you for your help. Nick Palliser

Response:

Question:

Hi all, 1. The cost of fishing is going up, up, up. A good Sage rod can cost upwards of $600 for a piece of inexpensive graphite.  A day with a guide can cost above $300.  A night at a fishing lodge can cost $600.  (Firewood kindling can cost $40!<g)

Of course, we’ve always justified these things by pointing out how expensive cocaine is in comparison.  (just kidding) I am living proof that you can get an enormous amount of enjoyment from fishing for very little money.

Response:

Hi all, I’ve received a couple of nasty emails over the past few days which tell me at least a few people do not understand what I am saying in my posts under the thread "Orvis Bashing."  (Believe me, I understand that most do not care!)  I am concerned others who read what I write, but do not send me email believe I am complaining about my salary.  I am not.  Like almost everyone, I wish it were more, and I believe it should be, but I have plenty of options if I am really unhappy about salary.  I’m sorry if what I write comes off as complaining at all, but I assure you, I am not talking about my salary.  Let me try and be as clear with my ideas as possible. 1. The cost of fishing is going up, up, up.   A good Sage rod can cost upwards of $600 for a piece of inexpensive graphite.  A day with a guide can cost above $300.  A night at a fishing lodge can cost $600.  (Firewood kindling can cost $40!<g) 2. We, the consumers, are as guilty as Orvis or anyone in this game.   We do not critically examine what the return is for the cost.  We pay it, just like we pay for overpriced Nike shoes.  We have been marketed. This I think, is a relatively recent phenomenon in fishing. 3. We do not do this with all things, like taxes or education.   We want to know what we will get for increased expenditures and most of us are suspicious of those who ask for more.  Therefore, it is not an innate part of the human condition to automatically overpay for things we value.  There is no a priori connection. 4. In fact, public education (and the local library, etc., whatever your local taxes go towards) in this country is generally an outrageous bargain.  We do not recognize this (in part) because there is no slick brochure, no beautiful movie or hilarious TV advertisement that tells us it is true.  There is no marketing.   5. If we really thought about this stuff, there is no way most of us could justify paying more for our own recreation than our children’s needs. Summary: The real beef with Orvis (or Sage, etc.) is that they are great marketers. This is not a crime, and we as consumers are partners in the activity. We must first realize this.  I made some comparisons of things I know about in order to demonstrate how much we pay for things which need not be expensive.  "Costs more" is not always better, nor is it necessary. Fishing for trout is about standing in a beautiful river in a beautiful setting and that is still free.  Resist the rest.   — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Rick Fletcher schrieb in Nachricht Hi all, I’ve received a couple of nasty emails over the past few days which tell

Hi Rick, I read all the Orvis bashing posts etc with interest. Understood your posts as well, in fact I invariably do understand your posts. Think it has to do with the fact that they are well composed and spelled, and you seem to know what you are talking about usually.  I think many people dislike being faced with moral issues, especially when this has to do with their passions and hobbies.   Some of the comparisons are a little hard to take, because they are obviously too close to the mark. I am bound to disagree with one or two of your points however, many people have no problem at all justifying the cost of their recreation as opposed to their childrens, or anybody elses needs for that matter, this is part of the problem. Also, one of the reasons many people go fishing, is to forget their problems for a while, and do not wish to be reminded of them in this context, because it probably makes them feel guilty as hell, having spent all that money which they shouldnt really have done in the first place !.  A lot of people are firmly convinced that it is not possible to enjoy anything much at all unless it is done using the " best" tools etc available, this all too often translates into the "most expensive" and I have actually heard people discussing tackle etc. in shops and the like, when somebody has said "it must be good, look how expensive it is ! ". This phenomenon is not new either, read some of the older literature, and you will see what I mean, Skues plugging Leonard rods etc. Hardys being praised to the skies for some perfectly ordinary ( but expensive ! ) bit of totally useless equipment etc. etc.  The high power marketing of today was not apparent of course, but then the market was far more limited. Even otherwise sensible people fall for "hype" when it has to do with their hobby, and this is what makes the market so attractive, the very fact that people will spend very large amounts of money for "names" etc, without really being able to judge whether it is worth it or not, and without making any appreciable difference to their capabilities, although pride of ownership etc might increase their enjoyment a little. Sorry you got nasty e-mails, but not everybody does things like that. Lastly, and on a somewhat lighter note, can you  tell me where this free beautiful river in a beautiful setting is ? ( just kidding ! ) Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

Hi all, I’ve received a couple of nasty emails over the past few days

        ok, rick, send me their addresses, and i’ll have o.c. and the bad boys from rowan county, n.c. chill the bastards.  anything goes in the defense of literacy! T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

        a. wayne harrison

Response:

Hi Rick, You are trying to link your desire of a high end rod with Orvis marketing. And then blaming Orvis for your need of an expensive rod.  Am I getting close?  Hard to resist though.   My wife and I have two children about to enter college.  I surely want them in the Dennisons, Harvards, and the Dukes of this world but, guess what, it costs money.  My daughter wants to go into elementary education.  Talk about a return on her (my) money!  My son wants to be a flyfishing, rock climbing bum.  But he also realizes that after the good times, he might have the need to provide for a retirement. Rather than grip about the ‘high end’ colleges, we simply pay the costs (without grabbing an appropriate newsgroup and soap box) or we council a college priced fairly for the educational degree we are after. Buy a rod on sale and make it do and don’t worry yourself over the Orvis marketing that none of us can do anything about.   Hope this makes sense. Mike Warren, OH/Cook Forest, PA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I’ve received a couple of nasty emails over the past few days which tell me at least a few people do not understand what I am saying in my posts under the thread "Orvis Bashing."  (Believe me, I understand that most do not care!)  I am concerned others who read what I write, but do not send me email believe I am complaining about my salary.  I am not.  Like almost everyone, I wish it were more, and I believe it should be, but I have plenty of options if I am really unhappy about salary.  I’m sorry if what I write comes off as complaining at all, but I assure you, I am not talking about my salary.  Let me try and be as clear with my ideas as possible. 1. The cost of fishing is going up, up, up. A good Sage rod can cost upwards of $600 for a piece of inexpensive graphite.  A day with a guide can cost above $300.  A night at a fishing

Response:

Well said Mike, I guess it really isn’t Orvis that I dislike, it is just their marketing, advertising and promotional methods. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO  http://www/ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rick Fletcher schrieb in Nachricht Hi all, I’ve received a couple of nasty emails over the past few days which tell Hi Rick, I read all the Orvis bashing posts etc with interest. Understood your posts as well, in fact I invariably do understand your posts. Think it has to do with the fact that they are well composed and spelled, and you seem to know what you are talking about usually.  I think many people dislike being faced with moral issues, especially when this has to do with their passions and hobbies.   Some of the comparisons are a little hard to take, because they are obviously too close to the mark. I am bound to disagree with one or two of your points however, many people have no problem at all justifying the cost of their recreation as opposed to their childrens, or anybody elses needs for that matter, this is part of the problem. Also, one of the reasons many people go fishing, is to forget their problems for a while, and do not wish to be reminded of them in this context, because it probably makes them feel guilty as hell, having spent all that money which they shouldnt really have done in the first place !.  A lot of people are firmly convinced that it is not possible to enjoy anything much at all unless it is done using the " best" tools etc available, this all too often translates into the "most expensive" and I have actually heard people discussing tackle etc. in shops and the like, when somebody has said "it must be good, look how expensive it is ! ". This phenomenon is not new either, read some of the older literature, and you will see what I mean, Skues plugging Leonard rods etc. Hardys being praised to the skies for some perfectly ordinary ( but expensive ! ) bit of totally useless equipment etc. etc.  The high power marketing of today was not apparent of course, but then the market was far more limited. Even otherwise sensible people fall for "hype" when it has to do with their hobby, and this is what makes the market so attractive, the very fact that people will spend very large amounts of money for "names" etc, without really being able to judge whether it is worth it or not, and without making any appreciable difference to their capabilities, although pride of ownership etc might increase their enjoyment a little. Sorry you got nasty e-mails, but not everybody does things like that. Lastly, and on a somewhat lighter note, can you  tell me where this free beautiful river in a beautiful setting is ? ( just kidding ! ) Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

Rick – thanks for the well thought out post. Based on your perspective of money and costs and value(s), I am certain that we could fish together. I could not agree more. Ben

Response:

Hi all, I’ve received a couple of nasty emails over the past few days which tell me at least a few people do not understand what I am saying in my posts under the thread "Orvis Bashing."  

[snip] Been there, fun eh? 3. We do not do this with all things, like taxes or education.   We want to know what we will get for increased expenditures and most of us are suspicious of those who ask for more.  Therefore, it is not an innate part of the human condition to automatically overpay for things we value.  There is no a priori connection. 4. In fact, public education (and the local library, etc., whatever your local taxes go towards) in this country is generally an outrageous bargain.  We do not recognize this (in part) because there is no slick brochure, no beautiful movie or hilarious TV advertisement that tells us it is true.  There is no marketing.  

These complaints work both ways. Canada has a universal health care system paid for by tax revenue.  I was at a party last year when one party goer (with a six figure income in anyone’s currency) whined and complained about how much he had to pay in taxes to support this system.  I wondered how many tens or hundreds of thousands he was willing to commit to an early death, just so he could become even filthier rich.  Neither was he willing to consider that the alternatives would have ended up costing the country and him, even more.  Limited minds don’t necessarily come attached to limited pockets. 5. If we really thought about this stuff, there is no way most of us could justify paying more for our own recreation than our children’s needs.

Only the most selfish would. Summary: The real beef with Orvis (or Sage, etc.) is that they are great marketers. This is not a crime, and we as consumers are partners in the activity. We must first realize this.  I made some comparisons of things I know about in order to demonstrate how much we pay for things which need not be expensive.  "Costs more" is not always better, nor is it necessary. Fishing for trout is about standing in a beautiful river in a beautiful setting and that is still free.  Resist the rest.   — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

What’s that old saying? Caveat emptor?  True in flyfishing as in anything else. Peter

Response:

Oy, an intelligent post.  I had to, like, read it. As a public school teacher I can relate.  I often do extra duty and spend summer days in curriculum development or whatever to make enough money to indulge in my addiction.  Regular money covers other luxuries like food.  I think of this extra money not as dollars but as flyrods, which are very expensive even if you get the "good guy" price. Dave

Response:

Question:

–snip– in my Vette.  

–snip– I drive an SUV just to prove that my penis extension is larger than yours. don’t it just piss ya off. hahahahaha |Bill and Dawn ‘94 Ford Bronco |               ‘85 Honda Magna V30       |               ‘72 Olds Cutlass Supreme | |Sure it’s an overgrown stationwagon. What’s your point? |   |Email address changed due to growing Auto-SPAM.

Response:

Sure, a 12 year old subaru = will get you to any ski area or through the worst weather Buffalo = has to offer, but it won’t make your neighbours go ‘oooh’.

Not this neighbor.  Try  

Question:

Does anyone have information on fly fishing for silver salmon in  Alaska? I plan to raft (class 3 water) in the fall of 97. Self  guided trip. I am looking for good river in Bristol Bay region.  I prefer a river with no lodges present.

Response:

I have fished silvers on three trips to Yakutat (SW AK, on the coast) but somewhat differently than your planned trip. Drive to the river, never more than 30 min. from a hot shower and a cold drink. 8 wt. outfit, hooks size 4-6, streamers with the "egg sucking leech" in black being favored, 10-15# tippet. Fish in your possesion still belong to the bears. This is not a F&G regulation but common sense. Have a great trip! Len Hunter No. CA

Response:

I have fished silvers on three trips to Yakutat (SW AK, on the coast) but somewhat differently than your planned trip. Drive to the river, never more than 30 min. from a hot shower and a cold drink. 8 wt. outfit, hooks size 4-6, streamers with the "egg sucking leech" in black being favored, 10-15# tippet. Fish in your possesion still belong to the bears. This is not a F&G regulation but common sense. Have a great trip! Len Hunter No. CA

  I’m a little disturbed at the suggestion that it may be OK to give fish to a bear. This creates a problem very quickly with bears and the bear  will end up dead. I have run into bears in the bush that have learned that they can get a free fish by approaching fishermen and invariably the bear will be dead within a year, as they will be killed by someone that knows better than to feed a bear.  Do not ever give a fish or any food to a bear!    If you do come to AK and do a raft trip do not keep salmon until your pick-up day, unless you have some bear proof containers. I’m convinced that more bears get killed each year by folks that don’t know what they’re doing than are killed legitimately by hunters and people in defense of life and property.    If you’re not familiar with brown bear behavior I do not believe that you should be camping on a salmon stream in the Bristol Bay area without a guide. It ain’t California.                                                           Jim

Response:

snipped to fit:    If you do come to AK and do a raft trip do not keep salmon until your pick-up day, unless you have some bear proof containers. I’m convinced that more bears get killed each year by folks that don’t know what they’re doing than are killed legitimately by hunters and people in defense of life and property.    If you’re not familiar with brown bear behavior I do not believe that you should be camping on a salmon stream in the Bristol Bay area without a guide. It ain’t California.                                                           Jim

If you need to shoot a charging bear and shoot it, it will cost you a fine of $15,000.00 dollars.  We are sure this will decrease dramatically the problem of charging bears and anyone’s life is certainly worth $15,000, the think-tank boys have concurred. Makes sense to me. Mr. G.

Response:

Question:

Help!!! Still searching for a few good flyfishing books. Just general manuals on casting, equipment,what to look for in a stream,etc.  This is for an academic library for students who are budding flyfisherpeople. (we have a small lake on campus with bass and bluegill in it). We have a few old copies of Izak Walton’s Complete angler in the Rare book section but we need some that are a little more modern. Any help greatly appreciated!

Response:

: Help!!! Still searching for a few good flyfishing books. Just general manuals : on casting, equipment,what to look for in a stream,etc.  This is for a nSome good books are Guide to Aquatic Trout Foods by Dave Whitlock, Advanced stratagies for selective Trout by Doug Swisher, and the Curtis Creek Manifesto.

Response: