Question:

Actually they are not. Change in angle of attack (not pitch)  changes the airspeed. Pitch change and angle of attack change are not always coincident, as we both well know. And of course, increased  pitch can indeed make the aircraft go up, since it can change the airspeed and therefore the power requirement, and the excess power causes the aircraft to climb.

As we say in my field, "Everything is deeply intertwingled."  Most control inputs on aircraft are NOT isolated in their effects.

Response:

Check out the latest instrument flying handbook (page 5-17). Entering a constant rate climb is different to managing a constant rate climb once you’re established – if you’re not entering it right and hence not getting established right then it probably is difficult to get it all sorted out. If you’re trying to do this in 500 foot chunks (pattern A, pattern B etc.) try a 3000 foot climb, that will give you plenty of time to work out all the relationships. Performance = power + attitude So know what power setting and what pitch angle gets the result you want, set those values and the plane will do what you want. Mat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Learn the pitch attitude on the AI and the power that give you specific performance. Maintain attitude/power setting to see if that gives you what you want and adjust accordingly. Just don’t chase the airspeed and VSI needles. Bracket it in with small pitch or power changes. Kind of like tracking a course .. track a heading .. evaluate it’s effect .. then change heading if needed. It might help to go out VFR and make a list of the attitude and power combos that give specific descent/climb/airspeed. Write these down and memorize them as starting points in the future. I think you’re on the right track with pitching to vertical speed and adjust airspeed with power.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. The thing I fail to see is your point, unless you mean, for example, that there is an intertwingling when a  change of pitch results in a change of angle of attack which results in a change in airspeed which results in a change of the power required to maintain altitude, thus the aircraft cl;imbs. Which is what I said in the first place, so I agree.  It’s intertwingled.  So one could maintain that a pitch change is what makes the aircraft climb.   But it would indicate a lack of understanding, don’t you agree? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually they are not. Change in angle of attack (not pitch)  changes the airspeed. Pitch change and angle of attack change are not always coincident, as we both well know. And of course, increased  pitch can indeed make the aircraft go up, since it can change the airspeed and therefore the power requirement, and the excess power causes the aircraft to climb. As we say in my field, "Everything is deeply intertwingled."  Most control inputs on aircraft are NOT isolated in their effects.

Response:

Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof.

You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time. The thing I fail to see is your point, unless you mean, for example, that there is an intertwingling when a  change of pitch results in a change of angle of attack which results in a change in airspeed which results in a change of the power required to maintain altitude, thus the aircraft climbs.

Changing the pitch, changes the angle of attack, which increases lift and causes the plane to climb.  It also slows the plane down, which decreases lift.  Of course drag also plays into this, which all means that you just can’t change one control in isolation to the others no matter what you are trying to accomplish. Back when I was working for the Army, another Army lab nearby did some Human Engineering work with a fly-by-wire helicopter system.  They totally decoupled the controls as the pilot saw them:  The "collective" made you go up and down at a rate proportional to it’s displacment , the "cyclic" caused you to translate in the direction of it’s displacement, the pedals just rotated the aircraft at a speed proportional their displacment.  It evidentally drove anybody who really knew how to fly helicopters crazy as they wanted to put in the corrections that their training had conditioned them to know were required.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time. The thing I fail to see is your point, unless you mean, for example, that there is an intertwingling when a  change of pitch results in a change of angle of attack which results in a change in airspeed which results in a change of the power required to maintain altitude, thus the aircraft climbs. Changing the pitch, changes the angle of attack, which increases lift and causes the plane to climb.  It also slows the plane down, which decreases lift.  Of course drag also plays into this, which all means that you just can’t change one control in isolation to the others no matter what you are trying to accomplish.

There may be a momentary increase in lift, which causes an acceleration upwards, but I would not call it "causing the plane to climb".  I think it is more aptly called "swooping", which takes place until the aircraft returns to steady state. Steady state climbing has nothing to do with increasing lift.  It is due to excess of power.   Lift is equal to weight as it was in level flight. (Yes I know: sum of upward forces = sum of downward forces, for the purists). And one other thing.  It is quite possible to change one control in isolation to the others.  Whjat is variable is the aircraft’s resulting performance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Back when I was working for the Army, another Army lab nearby did some Human Engineering work with a fly-by-wire helicopter system.  They totally decoupled the controls as the pilot saw them:  The "collective" made you go up and down at a rate proportional to it’s displacment , the "cyclic" caused you to translate in the direction of it’s displacement, the pedals just rotated the aircraft at a speed proportional their displacment.  It evidentally drove anybody who really knew how to fly helicopters crazy as they wanted to put in the corrections that their training had conditioned them to know were required.

Response:

Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time.

Which field is that?  And who? Just curious, John

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time. Which field is that?  And who?

Systems Analysis.  Tom DeMarco (principle guy at Yourdon).

Response:

Yes, I was taught to lead with a power setting. The instructor even had me make up a list of typical power settings and post them on the panel. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you know the power setting and pitch that will give you the desired performance it should be easy.  Just set the power and pitch and the plane will climb at the desired rate.  Same thing for descents.  Don’t chase the VSI. Mike MU-2 I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

– "ground zero" is clearing up, but the fallout from the towers still rains down around the world.

Response:

I struggled with this too until a seemingly obvious discovery was made; I wasn’t using the AI to set pitch.  After years of flying slippery gliders w/o AIs, and transitioning to  flying lightly loaded light aircraft, it never occurred to me to use the AI to set pitch in a climb or descent. Why?  Well, the slippery stuff is quite sensitive to pitch and not as stable as light planes, but since you fly it in turbulent conditions most of the time, and because they lack good visible references over the nose, and because power is constant (0), and because they are usually cranked over in a steep bank, I ended up using the airspeed most of time (the glider VSI is useless in determining pitch).  That is, look at the horizon then calibrate it by looking at the airspeed (esp airspeed trend).  Anyway, this works quite well in lightplanes, even under the hood when you combine it with the VSI…. at least up to a point… My instructors never really noticed except that my climbs and descents weren’t always as crisp as they should be.  I slowly discovered that I could use the AI to set a specific pitch attitude along with a specific rpm/mp to get a specific climb or descent.  One bar up, one bar down, etc.  I know the old pros here are probably snickering but I wonder if they specifically tell students how to use line widths on the AI to set up a specific pitch (?). No one told me that since my first instructional flights back in the 70s — and they probably should have covered up the AI then.  Otis, you were the first person in this post to specifically state what  one should do.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Learn the pitch attitude on the AI and the power that give you specific performance. Maintain attitude/power setting to see if that gives you what you want and adjust accordingly. Just don’t chase the airspeed and VSI needles. Bracket it in with small pitch or power changes. Kind of like tracking a course .. track a heading .. evaluate it’s effect .. then change heading if needed. It might help to go out VFR and make a list of the attitude and power combos that give specific descent/climb/airspeed. Write these down and memorize them as starting points in the future. I think you’re on the right track with pitching to vertical speed and adjust airspeed with power. I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Just fly the airplane. Get used to it. Add some power, pitch up if needed, trim, and maintain steady climb. Take power off, pitch down if needed, trim, and keep a steady descent. Just get a feel for it — there’s nothing mechanical about it. Getting a feel for the airplane you fly will tell you how much of each to do so that you can arrive at the desired point quickly and without too much fishing for the right settings. Go out on your own with the airplane, better without instructor on board, nobody to contaminate your thought process and play a couple of hours in changing its configuration to desired climbs and descents until you become smooth. Go slow flight, back and forth until you get a sense for the acceleration and deceleration while doing pitch and power changes and keeping level or exact VSI numbers. At one point I had memorized the setting on the Archer, until they rebuilt the engine and it felt like it got more power, then I had to get resettled so that I could fly my IFR routines smoothly.  Forget about the physics discussions, most folks love to talk about a subject they lack — you need solid differential calculus to truly claim to understand how exactly the forces interact but thankfully it is not needed. Just fly the damn thing.         D.         PP_ASEL IA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Yeah, find a power and pitch combo that will give you the performance you want.  When you want a certain constant rate climb just set your power, set your pitch(and maintain it) wait till the aircraft stabilizes and then make final corrections.  Usually the aircraft will stabilize at the target airspeed if you are patient and you won’t find yourself chasing needles. Use the VSI only as a trend instrument unless you have a Vario or IVSI, even then (1) Power,for climb (2) Pitch, to airspeed (3) verify Rate when stabilized at target airspeed.  With a little practice this sequence becomes automatic , and very reliable.  Once the numbers are determined the only variant factors are mainly, load(gross wt.), altitude, configuration , and C.G. Happy Flying R.Wallace CFIAIM

Response:

That’s how I was taught early on .. and I learned back in the 70s too. One bar .. two bar .. up .. down .. xxxx rpm. I think most problems chasing the needles come from dwelling on certain instruments and not maintaining a good scan with the AI as "home base". Actually .. there’s an old book I have laying around somewhere .. I can’t recall the exact title .. I want to say "Performance Flying’"??? Anyway it explains a lot of this and actually gives examples of attitude and power for several different aircraft. I’ll try to find it and post exact title. Don’t know if it’s still available or not.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I struggled with this too until a seemingly obvious discovery was made; I wasn’t using the AI to set pitch.

Response:

Thanks for all of your suggestions. Sounds like I need to go out and do a little experimenting with the plane on my own to find the right combinations of pitch/power to get the right results.

Response:

I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place.

I don’t want to get into a pitch/power argument here, but… You already have your constant airspeed climb and descent, right? Set up the exact same way. Note your climb or descent rate. Assuming a fixed pitch propeller, add or reduce power by 100 rpm increments, maintaining the same airspeed (you’re already trimmed for it, aren’t you?) until you get the rate you want. Now you’ll know the pitch/power combination for that rate in your airplane. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions?

You used the word "lag." So you already know the answer. WAIT the 5-6 seconds before you do anything else! – Mark Kolber APA, Denver, Colorado www.midlifeflight.com       email? replace "spamaway" with "mkolber

Response:

Okay Capt…..   when you are 100′ agl on final in your Boeing and your speed degrades, you push the nose down right…???     Read the Delta crash report at DFW many years ago and you will be enlightened…. John….. an almost 20,000 hour pilot who has is figured out

Response:

Excess power only means an airplane is capable of climbing……    increasing angle of attack makes it climb…. or changes the rate of climb

Response:

I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Many long years ago when I was in learning to fly instruments, I had the same problem. The trouble was that I found it very difficult to hold a constant pressure fore-and-aft on the yoke.  I solved the problem by locking my arm into position against the side wall of the aircraft and the arm rest.  If I needed to adjust elevators, I would move my whole arm slightly.  I could still adjust aileron with finger pressure.  Later, I learned what the trim tab was for. I still use the locked arm trick when it is bumpy.  It keeps the bumps from causing elevator inputs. The Comanche can be quite sensitive in pitch.  It works for me.  YMMV. Hank Henry A. Spellman Comanche N5903P

Response:

I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed,

Wow!!!  20,000+ hours and never knew that this was the way that I should be doing it.  Maybe I needed a different flight instructor.  :-)  :-) Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles. Bob Moore ATP ASMEL  B-707, B-727, L-188 CFI  ASE-IA USN  S-2F, P-2V, P-3B PanAm (retired)

Response:

Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow…….

        Not according to the FAA which recommends power to establish speed and pitch to stay on the glide slope.

Response:

"Pitch to the glideslope, power to the airspeed." That’s the way I was taught to fly jets, and that’s the way the autopilot does it. Bob Gardner

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, Wow!!!  20,000+ hours and never knew that this was the way that I should be doing it.  Maybe I needed a different flight instructor.  :-)  :-) Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles. Bob Moore ATP ASMEL  B-707, B-727, L-188 CFI  ASE-IA USN  S-2F, P-2V, P-3B PanAm (retired)

Response:

Actually they are not. Change in angle of attack (not pitch)  changes the airspeed. Pitch change and angle of attack change are not always coincident, as we both well know. And of course, increased  pitch can indeed make the aircraft go up, since it can change the airspeed and therefore the power requirement, and the excess power causes the aircraft to climb. Unless, fo course, you are on the back side of the power curve, in which case… But I know you know all that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, Wow!!!  20,000+ hours and never knew that this was the way that I should be doing it.  Maybe I needed a different flight instructor.  :-)  :-) Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles. Bob Moore ATP ASMEL  B-707, B-727, L-188 CFI  ASE-IA USN  S-2F, P-2V, P-3B PanAm (retired)

Response:

Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles.

This always reminds me of the joke where the student goes out on the runway and jams the control wheel forward and the instructor asks what he’s doing and he says "when this thing hits 60, you push the throttle in and we’ll climb."  :-)

Response:

I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

If you know the power setting and pitch that will give you the desired performance it should be easy.  Just set the power and pitch and the plane will climb at the desired rate.  Same thing for descents.  Don’t chase the VSI. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Question:

Check with Fish First Fly shop in Chico. 167 E 3rd St. Chico CA 95928 Tel (530) 343-8300 Fax (530) 343-8934 Their web site is www.fishfirst.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just resently moved to Chico and I love to flyu fish.  I’m don’t know where any good local fishing spots are near by.  If anyone could help me with some streams to fish and some flys to use here in Butte County I would appreciate it Thank you.

Response:

I just resently moved to Chico and I love to flyu fish.  I’m don’t know where any good local fishing spots are near by.  If anyone could help me with some streams to fish and some flys to use here in Butte County I would appreciate it Thank you.

Response:

Question:

Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick.

of course, you don’t live in washington state and have to watch the local s(news)…. this is all we’ve been hearing about and what we’ll be hearing about til the next disaster <G. i’m glad they’re back…. but i’d like to see the media give them a little bit of a break so they can have some real private time with their families and loved ones. chris

Response:

Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? I only say this because you seem to have such disdain for the military. I think I understand your disgust with the overdramatization in which military people attribute to their jobs….I did a 6 year stint in the Navy myself, and enjoyed it, but I find that too often fellow vets are just too quick to point out the fact that they served. It’s almost like they’re rubbing it in others’ faces. I have followed the plight of the aircrew held in China with some interest. I feel that the government/military is making way too big a deal of this, for publicity’s sake, than should be. All that said…I do respect the simple fact that being hel captive in a foreign communist country, no matter what the accomodations (in this case very plush) and treatment, would be a scary and dangerous situation to be in (history tells us this). For that, sure, let’s have a parade and welcome these folks home (especially if they were able to destroy any sensitive equipment on that plane before it went down).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave Dave

Response:

Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam?

Uhh, Mark,  Dave is a retired Navy Chief, a career military man who is justifiably proud of his service. Ken is the one who wrote the anti military diatribe. You really need to follow these threads a little more carefully before replying, or else get some asbestos skivvies to protect you from the flames.  Just a little friendly advice. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Ahhh…my apologies for my mistaken left-click, especially to Dave.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? Uhh, Mark,  Dave is a retired Navy Chief, a career military man who is justifiably proud of his service. Ken is the one who wrote the anti military diatribe. You really need to follow these threads a little more carefully before replying, or else get some asbestos skivvies to protect you from the flames.  Just a little friendly advice. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? I only say this because you seem to have such disdain for the military.

Wow, whatever you are smokin is worth every damn nickel you paid! Wolfgang and doubtless dave would love to share it      :)

Response:

… This is a welcome home for a group of Americans …

And much ado about nothing in my book.  … He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps.          Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret)

He and many of you can express your collective sighs elsewhere as far as I’m concerned, Frank. And I’m not impressed by alphabet soup after a man’s name. My younger brother was in the Marine Corps for twenty years, I’m not completely unfamiliar with things military. The military is a necessary evil not a sacred cow and I’m far more impressed with the guy who teaches inner city kids to read than I am with the guy flying spy planes off the coast of China. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken,     How ’bout teaching English and math to kids inter-battle zone in Bosnia, where there is a cleared path in the minefield to get to the old warehouse to teach?  How ’bout doing this for free?     How ’bout whole National Guard units that volunteer as a group to drop their jobs and run off to Central America to spend their days humpin sacks of flour to help hurricane victims?     How ’bout spending four nights a week and all day Saturday teaching English, math and biology to Korean orphans who are ostracized because they don’t have parents?  The tutors won’t help, the city won’t help, their own teachers won’t help.  Again, done free, for a year, gratis.  Person’s boss didn’t even know about it.     These are anecdotal.  They are all true. They are all military members. The U.S. military is second only to firefighters in time spent doing volunteer work.  In a lot of towns, those firefighters are military.  You profess to understand the military.  I won’t gainsay that.  Why do you join an organization of computer proffesionals?  Could it be that you identify with those who share your understanding of nibbles and bytes?  We, those former military members, identify with the sacrifices that those currently in the military endure.  The funny thing about military folks is that they often blend in with the scenery.  The are members of ACM, ROFF, but they still identify with their common core of experience in the military.  MSgt Ret is alphabet soup.  However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend.     You, as computer professional, should understand that the U.S. military is not a necessary evil.  It is also not a sacred cow.  It is not that one-dimensional.  However, to trivialize 2.6 million folks to the status of necessary evil is, in and of itself, pretty one dimensional.  It is a group of folks as important as your local fire and police department.  Wherever they go, they try to do some good.  It’s their nature.  They, as a group, will all tell you that they abhor the combat side of their jobs, because, to them, if they have to fight, they’ve failed at peace keeping.     I tell you what, take a group of military folks and ask them to raise their hands if they’ve ever fired a weapon in combat.   Very few hands.  Now ask them if they’ve done 10 or more hours of volunteer work in the last 2 months.  Now ask your computer professional friends if they’ve done 10 or more hours of volunteer work in the last two months.  Hey, it takes a village.  Some of us, i.e. the military have lived in that village all our lives, where others are wandering around screaming that some one should build them one.       Frank Reid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He and many of you can express your collective sighs elsewhere as far as I’m concerned, Frank. And I’m not impressed by alphabet soup after a man’s name. My younger brother was in the Marine Corps for twenty years, I’m not completely unfamiliar with things military. The military is a necessary evil not a sacred cow and I’m far more impressed with the guy who teaches inner city kids to read than I am with the guy flying spy planes off the coast of China. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

…     These are anecdotal.  They are all true. They are all military members.

And two members of the US military raped a 12 year old Japanese schoolgirl. Pretty useless to trade these examples, I’ll concede that there are both really nice folks and some of the scum of the earth serving in the military. …  MSgt Ret is alphabet soup.  However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend.

include their email address in their .sig, but if you find it untoward Please remember that this is an international forum and excessive chest thumping by the military regardless of nationality is most unseemly. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken,      All’s I’m trying to say is that military members are a group of human beings, like educators, like computer professionals.  That’s not chest thumping.  As you said, there are good and bad in every group.  I don’t trivialize any group of people.  To do so is to trivialize all.  To denigrate the work of a group of folks because they are in the military is very small minded.     Oh, by the way, the U.S. is not the only country that has a military. And, oh, by the way, in many countries, the military is a highly respected profession.  Unfortunately, it is mostly in those industrialized nations that have the freedom and wherewithal to be able to afford the time and the money to sit at computers or fly fish.  Wonder if there is a connection there?  Yes, this is an international forum, maybe over the years, you will expand your narrow views to match it.  Now thats chest thumping.     I may not change your mind, but I can try to change your perspective.         Frank

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …     These are anecdotal.  They are all true. They are all military members. And two members of the US military raped a 12 year old Japanese schoolgirl. Pretty useless to trade these examples, I’ll concede that there are both really nice folks and some of the scum of the earth serving in the military. …  MSgt Ret is alphabet soup.  However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend. include their email address in their .sig, but if you find it untoward Please remember that this is an international forum and excessive chest thumping by the military regardless of nationality is most unseemly. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

…  I don’t trivialize any group of people.  

To call the military a necessary evil is not to trivialize it, by definition necessary is not trivial.     Oh, by the way, the U.S. is not the only country that has a military.

Exactly the point, Frank. To hear some tell it all US actions are noble, honorable and professional and all US military personnel heroes while the only human being to have actually died in this regrettable incident is a "hotdog" who deserved to die. Now that’s jingoism. … Yes, this is an international forum, maybe over the years, you will expand your narrow views to match it.  Now thats chest thumping.     I may not change your mind, but I can try to change your perspective.

Thump away, my friend, but I think my perspective is just fine and the chances of you changing it are nil. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken Fortenberry writes: To hear some tell it all US actions are noble, honorable and professional and all US military personnel heroes while the only human being to have actually died in this regrettable incident is a "hotdog" who deserved to die. Now that’s jingoism.

If you saw film of previous flights by Chicoms harassing *legal* flights, you would ulnderstand why the Chicom died.  He "deserved" to die simply because he was harassing another aircraft in international waters when he should not have.  No jingoism or chauvinism involved.  Poor judgement, poor driving skills, lack of common sense, and unnecessary aggression caused his death, and damn near cause the death of *our* aircremen.   As far as this not belonging on roff:  well, it seems like you and only you get to pick roffs contents?  Like "native American" crap and "squaw" crap and other politically correct crap.  As long as the religious and patriotic intolerant Fortenberry says so, it must be so!  Bullshit!  See my hat.  And, MY brother was in the marines too.  What does *that* have to do with anything? Dave

Response:

Ken Whats the fucking big deal? They are American Navy people. They were being held by a foreign power. They got to survive and come home. The West Sound is very Navy. People here care a lot about these things. So they threw a big Welcome home party. The Pacific is a big Ocean – 6 hours from the HI, so when they were 40 minutes out I posted that. Now maybe the desire to celebrate this small victory locally is partly to counter the many recent unfortunate happenings in WA like the Earthquake, the loss of a large fishing crew in the Bering sea last week, Boeing, etc etc. But I think people were genuine in their appreciation for these young people. As for the politics of it – you know that my politics are relatively progressive for this forum. No one would ever mistake me for a conservative. But you also know that I save my strongest disdain for ideology and ideologues right and left. And all know that I loath Bush, still support McCain, think Rumsfeld is dangerous, and am thankful that Powell is there to moderate things, and because of his caution borne of his combat experience. You feeling anti-war? Got anything to say about the Israeli Army abuse of Arab civilians? How about dual citizenship "Americans" called up as IDF reservists for a few weeks of fun in Gaza? Feel like a crusade? I understand there is a boatload of child slaves missing off Benin. Or maybe a little looksee at the status of foreign household domestics in Chambama might be needed. Teaching reading in the inner city? You do not know that probably the largest inner city volunteer tutoring programs are operated by the military. Most ships have such programs. The military is also far ahead of the rest of the country on affirmative action, family involvement and responsibility in the schools, family leave and support, universal medical coverage, equal opportunity, environmental stewardship and a few others. Like my rightwing nemesis, you assume too much. My point being that pissing on a Welcome Home party for some GIs in WA, doesn’t fulfill the monthly dues assignment for even our most peripatetic Naderite. Lighten up. You get the last word if you want it. Dave

Response:

Ken, Is your life a piece of shit? I don’t believe it is. Do you? I believe you are a precious and utterly unique thing, and so am I, along with everybody else. Bottom line: My personal understanding is that people died so I could sit here at this keyboard and type whatever I want. I am grateful for those who have died, and to those who put themselves at risk for this country. I’m happy to see these kids come home and proud of the way they handled their situation. If that’s chest thumping, I’m going to thump my chest every chance I get. You can call it unseemly, call it any fucking thing you want. But ingratitude is worse than unseemly, it’s dishonorable. LR

Response:

…  He "deserved" to die simply because he was harassing another aircraft in international waters when he should not have.

He was no doubt under orders to harass the spy plane just as an American "hotdog" would be under orders to harass a Chinese spy plane in international waters off the coast of California. I doubt you’d be so cavalier about the death of an American aviator. As far as this not belonging on roff:  well, it seems like you and only you get to pick roffs contents?  

I don’t pick contents, but if I see something that makes this place an uncomfortable place for me or for others who want to discuss flyfishing I’ll either ignore it or bitch about it as I see fit. I suggest you do the same. … And, MY brother was in the marines too.  What does *that* have to do with anything?

Only that I’m not totally unsympathetic to career military. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken Whats the fucking big deal? They are American Navy people. …

No big deal, I’m just tired of all the hoop-de-la and the bloodlust was just starting to taper off on ROFF when you had to go and bring the damn thing up again. And believe it or not, not every flyfisherman in the world gives a flying fuck about the American Navy. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

… But ingratitude is worse than unseemly, it’s dishonorable.

Worship the military if that’s your wont, but calling folks dishonorable is no way find a fishing partner. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Take it any way you want. I didn’t call you dishonorable, but your behavior is. Enough dishonorable behavior and I may eventually judge you as dishonorable, but it’ll take a long time for me to feel that way about you. Since I took you to task publicly, I apologize in public for doing so. I should have emailed you.

Response:

… Since I took you to task publicly, I apologize in public for doing so. I should have emailed you.

No problem, Lennie. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken,    According to Websters, a jingo is a person who boasts of his patriotism and favors an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy.  You are totally missing the point.  This is a welcome home for a group of Americans that was held captive after making an emergency landing at a foreign airfield.  Would we have accepted this kind of treatment if this had been an airliner full of civilians, held by a foreign power after such an emergency landing?  Because they are military, should we not welcome them home?    It is not "jingoistic" to feel proud of a group of people who have been through a difficult ordeal, handled it with professionalism and returned home with honor.  Their job?  Ensuring that we are not suprised by an unforseen hostile act.  If we can find out about what is going on, then mayhaps we can PREVENT an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy.    Neither is it jingoistic to be saddened by the deaths of American and Vietnamese service men in Vietnam, years after the end of the war.  Their job?  Bringing closure to the families who lost love ones in that war.    I’ve watched both of these incidents unfold over the last few days. They hit home.  I was an Air Force linguist and intelligence analyst. These are some of the brightest and hardest working folks in the military.  Their IQs average in the top 10 percent.  It takes over 1 1/2 years in school, 8 hours a day with six hours of homework to even sit in the seat.  Then there is another year and a half of qualification on-the-job.  The washout rate is as high as 60%.    It is a very tight knit community. They are called "purple suiters" (the color of blue, green, and black uniforms combined) as they are the most "joint" job in the military. The mix of this crew is indicative of this "jointness."  They do their wartime job day in and out with life and death decisions in their hands.  99% boredom, 1% stark raving terror.  For this they make about $20,000 a year.    I was at the Defense Language Institute at the same time as one of those guys on the MI-8.  One of my coworkers was his roommate.  We are heartened and glad that the EP-3 incident did not end in the same way.  We are relieved that they’ve returned home.  We are welcoming them home as a nation, as you would welcome an old friend into your home for Thanksgiving.    Ken, Dave was not expressing "jingoistic melodrama."  He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps.         Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret)

Well said Frank, I think only those of us who have known the military as "family" for a goodly portion of our lives can really appreciate what the Whidbey Island folks felt today, it is a special bond that is still with me 31 yrs after retirement from the USAF.  I also believe that *most* Americans celebrate with us. Frank Church, TSgt, USAF (Ret)

Response:

Ken,     According to Websters, a jingo is a person who boasts of his patriotism and favors an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy.  You are totally missing the point.  This is a welcome home for a group of Americans that was held captive after making an emergency landing at a foreign airfield.  Would we have accepted this kind of treatment if this had been an airliner full of civilians, held by a foreign power after such an emergency landing?  Because they are military, should we not welcome them home?     It is not "jingoistic" to feel proud of a group of people who have been through a difficult ordeal, handled it with professionalism and returned home with honor.  Their job?  Ensuring that we are not suprised by an unforseen hostile act.  If we can find out about what is going on, then mayhaps we can PREVENT an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy.     Neither is it jingoistic to be saddened by the deaths of American and Vietnamese service men in Vietnam, years after the end of the war.  Their job?  Bringing closure to the families who lost love ones in that war.     I’ve watched both of these incidents unfold over the last few days. They hit home.  I was an Air Force linguist and intelligence analyst.  These are some of the brightest and hardest working folks in the military.  Their IQs average in the top 10 percent.  It takes over 1 1/2 years in school, 8 hours a day with six hours of homework to even sit in the seat.  Then there is another year and a half of qualification on-the-job.  The washout rate is as high as 60%.     It is a very tight knit community. They are called "purple suiters" (the color of blue, green, and black uniforms combined) as they are the most "joint" job in the military. The mix of this crew is indicative of this "jointness."  They do their wartime job day in and out with life and death decisions in their hands.  99% boredom, 1% stark raving terror.  For this they make about $20,000 a year.     I was at the Defense Language Institute at the same time as one of those guys on the MI-8.  One of my coworkers was his roommate.  We are heartened and glad that the EP-3 incident did not end in the same way.  We are relieved that they’ve returned home.  We are welcoming them home as a nation, as you would welcome an old friend into your home for Thanksgiving.     Ken, Dave was not expressing "jingoistic melodrama."  He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps.          Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS. You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick.

I can be insufferable without any help whatsoever from the United States Navy, thank you very much. Glad you enjoyed the TV show, Louie, now let’s hip-hip, hup-hup and go kill some Commies for the Gipper. Sheesh, take this crap somewhere where the coarser elements of our society gather to wallow in their ignorance, it has no place on ROFF. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS. dave

Response:

They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS.

You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama.

After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave Dave

Response:

Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave

AMEN! — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022

Response:

Question:

My better half and I are launching an e-commerce Computer Store. Please take a look and pass the word to others. We have taken the plunge and after several months have opened the site for sales. We have free UPS ground shipping on all orders over $500. The site has digital cameras, web cameras, printers, monitors, notebooks, mice, etc. We’ll be adding more products weekly and can get most products even if not on the website. I feel awkward about putting this in newsgroups but I need to get the word out. I am only announcing this in forums that we have personal interests in. (RC Planes, Kayaking, EMS, Fly Fishing, etc) Yes, this blatant advertising. I apologize if I offends anyone. If there are complaints, I certainly won’t advertise again. Thank you for reading and I hope you like the store. www.computerthingies.com John Legg

Response:

Complaint here.   Don’t do it.  Leave the URL in your sig file and contribute to groups you’re interested in.  It’s slower, but it won’t piss people off enough to complain to your ISP.  Which I gave up bothering to do with SPAMmers (yes, you are.  Or at least advertising in conversational groups, which is a no-no) years ago.  However many still do.  Do you really want to lose your ISP and have to go find another email and Web site? If there are complaints, I certainly won’t advertise again.

— rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

You weren’t the only complaint and I certainly learned my lesson the hard way. I posted to 6 newsgroups that I have interests in. Shortly thereafter I posted apologies to 6 newsgroups that I had interests in. Well at least I thought I’d apologized to 6 newsgroups. It looks like I forgot this one. Sorry about that. I was hesitant to post and I certainly regret doing it. It won’t happen again. John Legg www.computerthingies.com

Response:

Complaint here.   Don’t do it.  Leave the URL in your sig file and contribute to groups you’re interested in.  It’s slower, but it won’t piss people off enough to complain to your ISP.  Which I gave up bothering to do with SPAMmers (yes, you are.  Or at least advertising in conversational groups, which is a no-no) years ago.  However many still do.  Do you really want to lose your ISP and have to go find another email and Web site?

I’ve contacted him off the group and explained to him the evils of spamming. Personally, I have a very low tolerance for spammers (mainly because they cost my business $$$) – but this guy genuinely did not realize that what he was doing was wrong.  He was also pretty worried about losing his account…I doubt he’ll ever spam again.  :-) –Tina — HOSTING: from $45 per YEAR + FREE Domain w/most       PHP/mySQL, SSI, CGI, installed scripts & more              Merchant Account + FREE hosting Info                     http://www.AffordableHost.com

Response:

Nice apology.  And you didn’t lose your account.  From the way you phrased it, it was pretty obvious you were a newbbie at the advertising thing, so I doubt if anyone got really hot about it.  At least not enough to complain to your ISP.  It’s one of those learning things.  As a sister-in-law once said, "Oh, lord how I HATE learning experiences."  Hey, it’s not like doing something really dumb with power tools and powerlines or bare arms. You weren’t the only complaint and I certainly learned my lesson the hard way. I posted to 6 newsgroups that I have interests in. Shortly thereafter I posted apologies to 6 newsgroups that I had interests in. Well at least I thought I’d apologized to 6 newsgroups. It looks like I forgot this one. Sorry about that. I was hesitant to post and I certainly regret doing it. It won’t happen again. John Legg www.computerthingies.com

— rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

Question:

These trout can be very selective though, if they are rising to "Benson and Hedges", "Camels" may be useless, and indeed on occasion only a "John Player Special" will do the trick,  reduced strength cigarettes have also been found wanting. Apparently the material used in the filter makes them float too low in the surface film, and even trout are not stupid enough to believe that soggy cigarette butts  are emerging aquatics. Untipped cigarettes may often prove effective, although they tend to disintegrate rapidly.  If you want a real lunker, then try throwing Havana stubs attached to a very long leader off a suitable bridge. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Trout guts are fun. Not to be Ted Nugent about it, or anything, but

Response:

You guys have missed it altogether.  This fish are addicted!.  They obviously can’t smoke underwater so they do the next best thing and inhale the butts.  Imagine the high a lttle trout gets from the average sized butt?  I really doing think somebody should be suing a tobacco company about this.  After all, these fish could get really sick and if you eat them, you’re getting second hand smoke (or is that third?) Can anybody say, "Class action?" Peter

Response:

A few years ago, in April (it snowed that day) I caught a 3.5 lb Blagdon trout that a spherical glstening ball in its stomach.  On unwrapping it I could just discern some gold and the words ‘can damage your health’.  So it would seem. Gordon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These trout can be very selective though, if they are rising to "Benson and Hedges", "Camels" may be useless, and indeed on occasion only a "John Player Special" will do the trick,  reduced strength cigarettes have also been found wanting. Apparently the material used in the filter makes them float too low in the surface film, and even trout are not stupid enough to believe that soggy cigarette butts  are emerging aquatics. Untipped cigarettes may often prove effective, although they tend to disintegrate rapidly.  If you want a real lunker, then try throwing Havana stubs attached to a very long leader off a suitable bridge. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de Trout guts are fun. Not to be Ted Nugent about it, or anything, but

Response:

You guys have missed it altogether.  This fish are addicted!.  They obviously can’t smoke underwater so they do the next best thing and inhale the butts.  Imagine the high a lttle trout gets from the average sized butt?  I really doing think somebody should be suing a tobacco company about this.  After all, these fish could get really sick and if you eat them, you’re getting second hand smoke (or is that third?) Can anybody say, "Class action?"

One of the more amusing urban legends I’ve heard lately was an explanation of why so many deer get run over on the highway. After eating cigarette butts that people fling from their car windows, they become addicted to the nicotine, and hang out along the highways looking for more; sooner or later, they get hit by a car. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

Response:

Trout guts are fun. Not to be Ted Nugent about it, or anything, but I’ve learned a lot from trout guts. For example, I’ve learned that trout eat many more terrestrials than I thought possible. I’ve learned that trout on some streams often eat ladybugs and that smallish red humpies are excellent imitators for ladybugs. Importantly, I’ve also learned that my wife has no real appreciation for the disassembly of trout guts on certain kitchen counters. Also, she doesn’t particularly care for my habit of bringing chunks’o bugs from trout stomachs to show her while she’s painting landscapes. Important lessons, one and all. Today’s lesson, however, was particularly instructive in light of the recent discussion hereabouts on how much and how fast your average trout learns. Now, I don’t keep all that many trout, but when I do, I definitely like to see what the heck they’ve been up to, dining-table wise. Occasionally, if the surroundings support it, I even keep a largish one. So, it was with particular interest that I cleaned an 18 incher tonight, eager to see on what such a large (and presumably, smarter than average) trout might be dining. Tiny tricos? Evanescent midges? Taco supremes? In addition to a couple ladybugs, the first two things out of this particular stomach were caddis larvae. Complete caddis larvae — casings and all. In this particular river, the casings average about 3/4 inch to an inch in length, cylindrical, made out of the usual caddis larva materials of gravel and small sticks. Probing further, the next item on our trutta post mortem appeared to be yet another caddis larva — same length, same diameter, same…waitasec. Most caddis larvae don’t rebound when you press on them. Most caddis larvae aren’t fibrous. Most caddis larvae don’t read "Benson & Hedges" on the side. Yup — it was a cigarette butt. In addition to mocking whatever pretensions I might have had about fishing on a "pristine" stream, this event also gave new credence to that episode in, "The River Why," where Gus concocts a fly made out of hot dog wrappers and cigarette butts to fool the wily old bass in the town pond (’scuse me if my memory isn’t totally clear on that passage…think I’m getting the gist of it nonethemenos). It also made me question the advisability of imagining too much intelligence on the part of your average trout brain. Maybe sometimes the answer is just to throw something big, ugly, and nicotine-stained out there and hope for the best. So, anyway, the long and short of it is that I’ve started smoking. Besides having heard good things about the habit in general, I also need a ready source for new inventions at the vise. Look for a gold-ribbed Camel’s butt at a fly swap near you soon . tight lines and full ashtrays, – sid

Response:

Question:

   In the first place Mike didn’t do anything any decent person would have done. I sent an E-mail to Dianna telling her my opinion of the article and received a reply which was negative and did not sound like her.  I did not know about the injury to her husband and the pressure she was under at the time.  As the Editor she did have a responsibility to place a disclaimer to state FAOL’s position on Old Ruff’s article, which she did not do.  This made it appear that they condoned this inflammatory article.  Then she removed the negative comments about it from FAOL which further indicated FAOL’s position was to agree with the article.  Deanna made some serious errors and her actions led to the current situation.    Mike’s reputation is even better with me because he has the courage of his convictions.  If I had to chose between Mike and FAOL, Mike would win every time. Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a certain reputation to uphold here, and elsewhere.< Not any more. Oh, I think Mike still enjoys a pretty good reputation on ROFF.  Of course, my supposition hinges on the assumption that you don’t speak for all of us…….I could be wrong.

Response:

ROFF is the one place, FAOL cannot censor opposing points of view. < And one YOU cannot censor.

And what have I censored? bc.

Response:

HRBlain writes: I could be wrong.< You often are.

Careful, HR, or you’ll end up in Bmabia, which is right next to Bmalia.  In fact, they share the same fire and police dpts.  The young ladies in Bmabia, however, are small titted, unlike the lucious dolls of Bmalia.  Something about the water I suspect. Dave L.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike,   Ok, already! Perhaps it is only me, but I see no need to burden ROFF with ongoing matters on FAOL. For days on end, we get a bombardment of threads, the vast majority started by yourself, to discuss your beef with folks who don’t regularly contribute here. Wasn’t it you who had to depart us once before over needless bulk caused by other threads? You seem to be taken with the need to justify on this forum why you shouldn’t be blamed for the demise(if indeed such happens)of FAOL. It is perfectly rational that some blame you. Get over it. Get back to the insightful and well written stuff that has endeared you to many. I miss your angling writing, and hope not to offend with these observations.                         regards,                          Tom Littleton "Every now and then when your life gets complicated and the weasels start closing in, the only real cure is to load up on heinous chemicals and then drive like a bastard from Hollywood to Las Vegas."

Tom: I am little more than a lurker here with very few posts to my credit. I have, however, read Mr. Connors and many others posts over the last 6 months. In this time I’ve found him to be free with his knowledge, a prolific contributor to the group, and above all, a reasonable and courteous gentleman. He now finds himself in a position of being slandered, quoted out of context, and generally maligned by persons who aren’t qualified to carry his creel. His integrity has been called in to question by persons with less than honourable methods. I think he has handled himself with more restraint than I could. If he feels that posting to a public forum is the best way to defend his name, I am willing to afford him some lattitude. IMHO, ROFF is a forum for educated (formal or otherwise) and sometimes opinionated, gentleman to gather for thought provoking discussion with fly fishing being the tie that binds (if not always the main topic <G). When I get tired of a thread I just move to the next subject header. Rick O. "Children are born with an innate sense of justice; it usually takes twelve years of public schooling and four more years of college to beat it out of them." "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."

Response:

Like I said in another post… "Crusty Factor" — Michael Era

Question:

Does anyone have the number to Cabela’s Fly Fishing Catalog (the special one they make that has mostly fly-fishing stuff in it)? Thanks in Advance. -Robert | Robert Cid | Department of Applied Science | University of California, Davis | -!Andale Aggies!-

Response:

Does anyone have the number to Cabela’s Fly Fishing Catalog (the special one they make that has mostly fly-fishing stuff in it)? Thanks in Advance.

Robert, 1-800-237-4444 you have to specify that you want the fly fishing catalog. Steve

Response:

Does anyone have the number to Cabela’s Fly Fishing Catalog (the special one they make that has mostly fly-fishing stuff in it)?

The one I have (Fly Fishing 1998) says Catalog TX-1509 on the address label. — Charlie…

Response:

Question:

I’m planning a trip to the Yellowstone area in early September.  Does any one have advice on the best bets that time of year?  Any favorite places that you wouldn’t pass up if driving through the Park? Thanks for any help, Mike Fair

Response:

Mike, …..theres a lot of fishing in and around the park. Call Dan Baillys(sp?) in Livingston or any other Fly Fishing store to get advise with in a week of your trip.The rivers in Montana are still high due to the heavy snows. I own Hawley Mt. guest Ranch 25 miles north of Yellowstone on the Boulder River and we offer lodging and fishing but we have a 4 day min. You can call me 406-932-5791 and I will be happy to tell you about the conditions.                                                                       Bryant BBlewett

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Mike, …..theres a lot of fishing in and around the park. Call Dan Baillys(sp?) in Livingston or any other Fly Fishing store to get advise with in a week of your trip.The rivers in Montana are still high due to the heavy snows. I own Hawley Mt. guest Ranch 25 miles north of Yellowstone on the Boulder River and we offer lodging and fishing but we have a 4 day min. You can call me 406-932-5791 and I will be happy to tell you about the conditions.                                                                      Bryant BBlewett

I was there a couple years ago for a week following Labor Day.  It turned out to be a great time to be in Yellowstone.  Most of the facilities were still open, but there weren’t very many people in the park.  Most of the  people who were there stayed on the busses or in the gift shops.  My wife and I were often by ourselves on the rivers or the hiking trails. I fished the Yellowstone in several spots, the Firehole and several of the creeks which feed into the Yellowstone.  The rivers were full of Cutthroat  I was recently recalling this trip and decided that I will return in September ‘97 to see if it was really as good as I remembered it. One warning, the park facilities only stay open for about two weeks after Labor Day, at which point everything by Old Faithful Lodge starts closing down. Please report back if you go this September. Tim Johnson

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Mike,  Everything should be fishing well at that time with the late runoff and all.  If the weather is warm the madison below Quake lake should be good for hoppers.  Many shops in West can supply flies and info. I hate driving in the park, but the uppper northeast area is a fav. spot.  Soda Butte creek towards Cooke City and even the Clarks Fork past Cooke City. Doug Stephens

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Question:

We are announcing the opening of a new full service flyfishing resort located in North Central Colorado, near Walden, Colorado.  The new lodge has a maximum capacity of 12 anglers per week and features gourmet foods, outstanding new accommodations and twelve miles of  private virgin headwaters of the North Platte that have never been fished by the public.  Excellent populations of browns, brookies, rainbows, cutthroats and cutbows in the same water.  All walk and wade.  Guided.  Instruction available.  No extra costs.  Catch and release.  For further information, check out http://little-grizzly-creek.com/lgc.html or  7113 N. Tatum, Paradise Valley, Arizona  85253. 602-952-9732.

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We are announcing the opening of a new full service flyfishing resort located in North Central Colorado, near Walden, Colorado.  The new lodge has a maximum capacity of 12 anglers per week and features gourmet foods, outstanding new  accommodations and twelve miles of virgin headwaters of the North Platte that have never been fished by the public.  Good populations of browns,  brookies, rainbows, cutthroats and cutbows in the same water.  All walk and wade.  Guided.  Instruction available.  No extra costs.  Catch and release. For further information, check out http://little-grizzly-creek.com/lgc.html  7113 N. Tatum, Paradise Valley, Arizona  85253  602-952-9732

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: We are announcing the opening of a new full service flyfishing resort located : in North Central Colorado, near Walden, Colorado.  The new lodge has a maximum [snip] : that have never been fished by the public.  Good populations of browns, :  brookies, rainbows, cutthroats and cutbows in the same water.  All walk and It’s not new anymore!  You’ve been advertising here for many, many months. Give us a rest… — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Question:

Greenstone lake, the first that you get to, seems to have a small brook trout population but there are so many others that it’s hardly worth fishing.

One of the funnier things I’ve seen while fishing happened here.  A couple of spin fisherman were fishing Greenstone and one hooked about a 6" brookie.  His buddy got the net, which had a handle about three feet long and a rim about 2 feet in diameter.  It was big enough to net salmon for god’s sake. Well, as he went to lift the trout out of the water, it fell through the webbing on the net.  I got a good chuckle to say the least.

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A friend was in at Saddlebag two weeks ago and said the ground was still fairly soggy…..alot of the High Country won’t be opened up this year at all, as fall/winter is beginning to happen already (last week it got down to 35 deg 3 nights straight at 6870 ft. elevation. As far as fishing, it’s been suprising how few trout are actually surface feeding this year in the Sierra (Ralph Cutter- can you shed some light on this and/or confirm/deny ??).   All I’m able to attribute it to is the lower than customary temperature of the water. There *are* hatches, although they are much later than usual, but the fish seeem to be ignoring them. The few that I’ve kept have been **PACKED** with nymphs, hoppers, ants and beetles, but not alot of "surface bugs". I indicator nymphed and worked a pair of ants (one flying, one hardshell) and picked up a few fish….but certainly nothing to boast about. Tried soft-hackele wets for hours with no takers..upstream, down and across and downstream…..started to curse Dave Huges and Sylvester Nemes below my breath, but decided that I’d save that for my third and likely final attempt at this "old New Style" of flyfishing. Don’t know if it would be worth the effort of canoeing and then trekking farther; I’ve heard Mammoth has been pretty good this year, you may want to give it a go instead!!

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At the end of September I’m thinking of heading up to Saddlebage Lake, canoeing accross and hiking around the Conness Lakes/Glacier are to fish for Goldens.  Has anyone been up there lately or at this time of year.  I know it’ll probabaly be a bit cold since its above 10,000 feet. What flies should I bring?  Nymphs, Caddis, Terresterals?  Any advice would be appreciated.  

I haven’t been up there in a few years but this is one of my favorite areas.  I also used a canoe to get across the lake and  then carried it up on the shore a bit and stashed my oars up by a tree a bit up the trail. Greenstone lake, the first that you get to, seems to have a small brook trout population but there are so many others that it’s hardly worth fishing.  The next lake (Wasco) is a little better and I’ve caught fish of a decent size.  Steelhead lake (the biggest in the basin) has been hit and miss for me.  Cascade lake, and the small lake in between it and Steelhead are both real good.  The shallows at the south end of the lake are teeming with brookies in the evening.  There is another small lake (Towser) that is supposed to be a Golden trout only lake and I’ve caught a couple real small ones in it.  Shamrock lake has been one of the best producers for brookies for me and it’s probably the prettiest in the basin.  To the South of Shamrock as you head up the hill there are a couple of other small lakes that are supposed to be Golden trout lakes but I’ve never found them.  At the top of the hill in the center of the basin is Z-lake.  I have caught more brookies in that lake then any of the other lakes.  Helen Lake and Odell have produced much for me and I believe that Odell is supposed to be a golden trout only lake as well. I haven’t fished Hummingbird but I hear it has a large brookie population, so much so that the fish are stunted. There are three lakes up above the waterfall below the glacier that are worth the hike only because they are so pretty.  The first one is almost a tourquiose color.  Unfortunately I was told that these lakes froze solid a few years ago and have not been restocked.  That was about five years ago so it may have changed. If the fish are hitting the surface I have had the best luck with grey hackle peacocks, grey hackle yellows, Sierra brite dots, and coachmens. If they are not,  various nymphs like GR hares ears, prince nymphs, Birds nests, pheasant tails, and a few emerger patterns all seem to work.   I fished all of these patterns with an ultralight spinning rod and a casting bubble.  For the grey hackles, etc, I filled the bubble half full of water and fished them wet just below the surface with a *very* slow retrieve.   For the nymphs I fill the bubble up all the way and then cast and count down several seconds before begining the retrieve. As is the case with any of the areas in the Sierra you should be prepared for any kind of weather.  I’ve been there twice in September when it has snowed.  One time a friend of mine and I drove up and camped at Tioga lake campground because we arrived too late in the day.  He got up the next morning and went out in my canoe on Tioga lake.  He paddled out about 100′ and decided it was too cold.  He knocked on my camper shell window and said that he had to come in and warm up.  We ended up driving around a bit because the heater wasn’t warming fast enough.  It was probably a good three hours before he felt normal again.  Hypothermia is a very real possibility this time of year and it’s nothing to fool around with.  If we had camped out the night before in the basin like we had planned it could have been *real* serious. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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At the end of September I’m thinking of heading up to Saddlebage Lake, canoeing accross and hiking around the Conness Lakes/Glacier are to fish for Goldens.  Has anyone been up there lately or at this time of year.  I know it’ll probabaly be a bit cold since its above 10,000 feet. What flies should I bring?  Nymphs, Caddis, Terresterals?  Any advice would be appreciated.   "Never get suckered into defending the cost of your fishing habit on a cost per pound basis.  It’ll only embarrass or depress you.  The only measurement that makes sense at all is the cost per cast…So, if you are long on effort and short on results, remember that the more you cast, the cheaper it gets."                                             -Tully Stroud Chris Anderson San Fransicko

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