Question:

Ha! Made you look, cracker!

Response:

Ha! Made you look, cracker!

What does this have to do with skating?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Blacks are the foremost perpetrators of "hate crimes". 30,000 White women are raped by black males every year. Over 5,000 Whites are assaulted. 1,800 Whites are murdered by blacks every year in America. Read "The Color of Crime" http://www.amren.com/colrcrim.html                           ||__||           |    Please do   |                          /   O O      |        NOT       |                         /                |     feed the    |                        /                |   the niggers  |                      /    |____        ||                     /     | | | |____/      ||                    /       |_|_|/   |    __ ||                   /  /              |____| ||                  /   |   | /|        |      –  |                  |   |   |//         |____           * _    |  |_|_|_|          |     -/        *– _– _     //           |          /  _     \ _ //   |        /        *  /   _ /- | –     |       |

What does this sick stuff have to do with skating?

Response:

Dear Julia.. You are one sick puppy! Woman sentenced in racist e-mail hoax trash snipped

What does this have to do with skating?

Response:

What does this sick stuff have to do with skating?

It is related to Ice Skating in the exact same manner it is related to CD Recorders, GI-Joe toys, Fly Fishing, and Outdoor Travel (cross posted newsgroups).  There is no correlation, it is just some AWM (anger white male) venting their frustrations and showing their ignorance.  It is 2001, even red necks can get on the internet now

Response:

Blacks are the foremost perpetrators of "hate crimes". 30,000 White women are raped by black males every year. Over 5,000 Whites are assaulted. 1,800 Whites are murdered by blacks every year in America. Read "The Color of Crime" http://www.amren.com/colrcrim.html                           ||__||           |    Please do   |                          /   O O      |        NOT       |                         /                |     feed the    |                        /                |   the niggers  |                      /    |____        ||                     /     | | | |____/      ||                    /       |_|_|/   |    __ ||                   /  /              |____| ||                  /   |   | /|        |      –  |                  |   |   |//         |____           * _    |  |_|_|_|          |     -/        *– _– _     //           |          /  _     \ _ //   |        /        *  /   _ /- | –     |       |

Response:

Woman sentenced in racist e-mail hoax BY JENNIFER FEEHAN BLADE STAFF WRITER BOWLING GREEN – A black woman who admitted sending racist e-mail messages to herself was placed on probation yesterday for two years and ordered to write a letter of apology to Bowling Green State University students. Omobonike Odegbami, 27, of Toledo, Ohio pleaded guilty Oct. 27 to tampering with evidence, a third-degree felony. Investigators said she reported to BGSU police in April that she had received threatening, racially charged e-mail from an unknown source. A graduate student at the time, she relayed her story to the campus newspaper, which published a front-page story about the case. Campus police enlisted the aid of the FBI, soon zeroing in on classmates and instructors in Odegbami’s small graduate program. She eventually confessed. Odegbami, appearing yesterday in Wood County Common Pleas Court, apologized before Judge Reeve Kelsey but offered no explanation for her actions. She declined to comment after the sentencing. James Wiegand, director of public safety at BGSU, told Judge Kelsey that university officials are "both disappointed and certainly relieved" at the outcome of the case. He said it is disappointing that a student would go to such lengths to get attention, but a relief that the messages were bogus. Wood County Prosecutor Alan Mayberry said he agreed not to seek a prison sentence as part of a plea deal with Odegbami. However, he said he wants her to obtain counseling and apologize in a letter published in the campus newspaper. Odegbami’s attorney, Stanley Garrett, told the judge his client has no prior criminal record, that she accepts responsibility for what she did, and that she is attending the University of Toledo. Judge Kelsey said Odegbami must perform 200 hours of community service during her two years of community control, continue to undergo mental health counseling at her own expense, and pay all court costs. He warned that if she violates those conditions, she could receive more restrictive sanctions, go to jail for up to six months, or to prison for three years. — Blacks are the foremost perpetrators of "hate crimes". 30,000 White women are raped by black males every year. Over 5,000 Whites are assaulted. 1,800 Whites are murdered by blacks every year in America. Read "The Color of Crime" http://www.amren.com/colrcrim.html

Response:

Woman sentenced in racist e-mail hoax

But have they been fishin’? Can they send us a TR? Chris

Response:

Dear Julia.. You are one sick puppy! Woman sentenced in racist e-mail hoax

trash snipped — On my retirement adventure from the rolling hills of the Southern Tier in New York State…..    Traveling in my 1999 Dodge 2500 6-spd diesel, 1999 Sunnybrook 27RKFS 5th-wheel

Response:

Soltys Says Victims Tried to ‘Poison’ Him  By KPIX – Ann Notarangelo  Investigators say mass murder suspect Nikolay Soltys claims the family members he’s accused of killing were trying to "poison"  him.  However, language difficulties are making it hard for police to determine if that means Soltys believed his family was trying to  murder him, or simply ruin his reputation.  Police do say that the 27-year-old Ukrainian immigrant is cooperating with the investigation. But they won’t comment on reports  that Soltys has already confessed to the crimes, saying that revealing too many details could damage their case in court.  Soltys is now in protective custody in the county jail, to protect him from other inmates and himself. He was arrested Thursday,  outside his mother’s home in a Sacramento suburb.  Soltys is suspected of killing his wife, son, and four other family members, but police say there’s no evidence he went to his  mother’s house to hurt anyone. Instead, investigators thought the Soltys may have been trying to reach out to his mother. It was  that possibility that inspired police to quietly watch the home since the family chose to leave protective custody earlier this week.  Police also gave Soltys’ mother a panic button to use if her son appeared.  "It’s designed to be a one-button-push call to the 911 operator," said Sgt. Jamie Lewis with the Sacramento County Sheriff’s  Department. "Ultimately, they decided not to use this device, because they wanted to put some distance between them and the  suspect."  But police say that decision backfired. When the family tried to call 911 on the cell phone authorities had also given them, they  mistakenly dialed 119. A store clerk eventually helped them make the call.

Response:

Question:

I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Pass Lake: Fine black chenille body on a size 14 standard dry fly hook.  The tail is mallard flank clipped short just behind the bend.  Three turns of brown hackle.  White calf tail wing tied trude style.  I can’t imagine anyone having any difficulty identifying the pass lake based on this description…….it doesn’t even vaguely resemble anything else I have ever seen.  I would be much surprised if it could be confused with anyone else’s contribution.  Besides, it should be the only one you get without a tag on it.    :) This is allegedly a dry fly, but with the chenille body it tends to absorb water readily.  In fact, it floats or sinks pretty much at its own discretion.  However, it has proven very effective for me whether floating high and dry, floundering in the meniscus, or completely submerged.  Not only does it not resemble any other fly I have ever seen, but the same can be said for its affinity to anything that has ever lived in a lake or stream.  Nevertheless, both trout and bluegills (and all their kin) take it readily.  Dead drifting, skittering across the surface, slow retrieve or twitching below the surface, and simply hanging in the current have all worked at various time under a variety of conditions. Any experienced tier should have no trouble figuring out how to put this one together.  One important note though:  calf tail is very slippery; don’t try to make a small neat head on this one.  I make the heads relatively long and thick in order to get a lot of thread holding the wing in place.  Be very liberal in this regard or you will find the calf tail falling out.  Newbies feel free to email me for specific instructions. Sorry Frank, I tried to be good!

Response:

 Incidentally, I have caught many fish on the Pass Lake by just letting it hang in the current downstream while watching a partner fish.  Any similar experience with the Rio Grande King?

Especially when caddis are hatching, once the fly begins to drag I submerge it, give it slack and fish it like a downstream wet.  Get lots of fish during the swing and even hanging directly downstream.  These are usually smaller fish.  The better fish I’ve caught on the pattern have been fish tight against the bank that hit the fly when partially submerged. Willi

Response:

You might be right Warren, I’ve called in the FBI to have the box and all those little buggers checked for fingerprints…but if the miscreant who removed those tags wuz wearin’ expensive Italian shoes and blood-soaked gloves, we’ll never get a conviction! Frank (coppin’ out) Church

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s OK Warren, the old tired grey swapmeister will tag ‘em for ya both, I love helping out those less fortunate than me. )….."and barbless hooks don’t help anything either"….shoulda been one of these there  :-) (I gotta take longer naps) Thanks Frank.  I will keep investigating to see who it was that didn’t tag their flies.  It wasn’t me, because I had mine all tagged.  I spent a lot of time tagging those damn things so if they arrived without tags it must have been the postal service and their latest anti-terrorism technology that made them disappear. Of course the flies were probably damaged too during the process, so keep that in mind.<g Warren X#-[ Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

You might be right Warren, I’ve called in the FBI to have the box and all those little buggers checked for fingerprints…but if the miscreant who removed those tags wuz wearin’ expensive Italian shoes and blood-soaked gloves, we’ll never get a conviction!

Or what if it was Richard Jewel?  They’ll never prove Bubba did it! <g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

That’s OK Warren, the old tired grey swapmeister will tag ‘em for ya both, I love helping out those less fortunate than me. )….."and barbless hooks don’t help anything either"….shoulda been one of these there  :-) (I gotta take longer naps)

Thanks Frank.  I will keep investigating to see who it was that didn’t tag their flies.  It wasn’t me, because I had mine all tagged.  I spent a lot of time tagging those damn things so if they arrived without tags it must have been the postal service and their latest anti-terrorism technology that made them disappear. Of course the flies were probably damaged too during the process, so keep that in mind.<g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Well, OK Wolfie..I’ll forgive you just this once, but all you really needed to do was put yer moniker and the name of the fly on the tag.  I can see why the tag would be the size of a legal paper with all that recipe on it. And barbless hooks don’t help anything either.

Well Wolfie, you aren’t the only one that bagged them without taggin’ them.  I know there was another dirty, rotten s.o.b. out there that didn’t do it either.  For the life of me I can’t remember his name or what he tied, but I know he is out there <g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

That’s OK Warren, the old tired grey swapmeister will tag ‘em for ya both, I love helping out those less fortunate than me. )….."and barbless hooks don’t help anything either"….shoulda been one of these there  :-) (I gotta take longer naps) OTGS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, OK Wolfie..I’ll forgive you just this once, but all you really needed to do was put yer moniker and the name of the fly on the tag.  I can see why the tag would be the size of a legal paper with all that recipe on it. And barbless hooks don’t help anything either. Well Wolfie, you aren’t the only one that bagged them without taggin’ them. I know there was another dirty, rotten s.o.b. out there that didn’t do it either. For the life of me I can’t remember his name or what he tied, but I know he is out there <g Warren X#-[ Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Actually the fly is very similar to a Rio Grande King or Rio Grande Trude….

Thank you Willi.  And now that you have made everyone aware of the distinctions between the Rio Grande King and my own humble offering NOBODY has any excuse to confuse it with anything else that arrives in their goody boxes!  Incidentally, I have caught many fish on the Pass Lake by just letting it hang in the current downstream while watching a partner fish.  Any similar experience with the Rio Grande King? Wolfgang who is hoping oh so fervently that he will be able to put his fly swap rejects to work this weekend!

Response:

Good idea posting the recipe Wolfgang.  BTW – I made my tags stay on by coating the paper front and back with scotch(tm) tape. Here is the recipe for the Teco Bug (or Teko Bug – I’ve seen it spelled both ways). The Teco Bug was originated about 40 years by Dick Blair and some other guys long who fish the Westfield River here in Western Massachusetts.  The lower stretches of the river have lots of dragonfly nymphs and we think this fly imitates those and probably stonefly nymphs and the Isonychia.  Dick ties these in sizes 4 through 8, usually unweighted and never with a bead.  Most other people I know will either add lead or a bead head.  The ones I tied are on a size 8 Mustad 3906B nymph hook.  I also tie mine sparser and smaller than Dick.  He does two layers of the underfur before adding the guard hairs – he makes really fat buggy nymphs and has been very successful with those for lots of years.  I don’t fish the main stem of the Westfield, preferring the smaller feeder branches, and I think the sparser version does better up there and also in the ponds I fish.  Fish the Teco as a nymph (up and across, dead drift, and use an indicator if you want).  We also fish these like a streamer, down and across with short strips at the end of the swing, especially when fishing the Isonychia drift in August.  The name Teco (Teko) comes from Tekoa Mountain, a big rocky hill overlooking the Westfield River where Dick likes to fish. Bead Head Teco Bug No tail Thread: Danville 6/0 waxed, color to match fur Hook: Mustad 3906B or similar, size 4 through 12 (I usually use size Bead: cyclops eye (size to fit hook, 1/8" is good on a size Underbody: snowshoe hare body fur underfur Overbody: snowshoe hare guard hair (see description below) Wing: mallard flank feather Method: We tie these in silver (silver bead, gray fur, natural mallard), brown (silver or brass bead, brown fur, mallard dyed wood duck, or real wood duck if you have them) and olive (olive dyed rabbit, brass bead, olive dyed mallard). Put the bead on the hook.  You probably need to pinch down the barb. Coat shank well with thread back to the hook bend.  You can lock in the bead with thread, but I usually just build up a ball of dubbing.  For the sparse version, bring the thread up to the head.  For the fat version, bring the thread back to the hook bend. Cut off several bunches of fur (six is about right for a size and separate the underfur from the guard hairs.  This is critical to the fly – using blended dubbing and picking out guard hairs does not give a buggy enough appearance.  Swap hands so you are pinching the fur at the cut end and pinch the guardhairs with the thumb and forefinger of the other hand. Pull out the guard hairs and stack in neat piles for later use.  Tease out the piles of underfur and mix. Dub the underfur mixture and wrap a fairly cylindrical body.  The fat version does two layers of dubbing.  Both versions should end with the thread at the hook bend. The guard hairs are applied either by waxing the thread and dabbing the hairs on loosely, or by using a dubbing loop.  I prefer using a little wax and just sticking on the hairs.  If you’re using pre-waxed thread and you have the right touch, no additional wax is necessary.  Don’t spin them tight.  Wrap the guard hair dubbing up to the eye.  The idea is to apply all six bunches fairly evenly.  You should have lots of spiky hair sticking out in all directions.  If necessary, brush out more hairs with a piece of velcro. The mallard flank wing should use a symmetrical rounded feather.  Pick a decent feather and strip off the fluffy section.  The feather should extend about 1/2 hook shank length past the bend.  Wet your fingers and stroke the barbules to compact them.  Dick Blair just puts the feather in his mouth to wet it and pulls it through his lips to compact it – use your own judgement. Take two or three loose wraps of thread over the feather and position the feather, then pull the stem to bring the barbules under the wraps.  This further compacts the feather.  When it looks right, take a few tighter wraps to secure the feather. Make a wing case by taking the thread back about 1/4" under the feather and taking two loose wraps.  Then bring the thread back to the head and tie off. –Stan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Pass Lake:

Response:

<snip Apparently my spell checker doesn’t care about obviously stupid headers or it is deliberately out to get me.

Response:

Well, OK Wolfie..I’ll forgive you just this once, but all you really needed to do was put yer moniker and the name of the fly on the tag.  I can see why the tag would be the size of a legal paper with all that recipe on it. And barbless hooks don’t help anything either. YOT&GS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Sorry Frank, I tried to be good!

Response:

Actually the fly is very similar to a Rio Grande King or Rio Grande Trude, a fly that was very popular about 25 years ago in Colorado and Wyoming. The Rio Grande traditionally has a golden tinsel tag and the tail is made of golden pheasant tippets, but there were many variations. I tie mine very similar to your Pass Creek, but use brown hackle for the tail (one less material to get out) and I often tie it on a 2X long hook. I also like the versatility of this fly.  Like you stated, it can be fished dry, damp or wet and can be fished dead drift or with various amount of action. Locally it has seemed to have fallen out of favor. It is one of several "old" patterns that I use that have been replaced by more modern, but not necessarily better, patterns. These "old" patterns, aside from being good flies in their own right, can sometimes turn the trick on fish that have seen alot of flies. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Pass Lake: Fine black chenille body on a size 14 standard dry fly hook.  The tail is mallard flank clipped short just behind the bend.  Three turns of brown hackle.  White calf tail wing tied trude style.  I can’t imagine anyone having any difficulty identifying the pass lake based on this description…….it doesn’t even vaguely resemble anything else I have ever seen.  I would be much surprised if it could be confused with anyone else’s contribution.  Besides, it should be the only one you get without a tag on it.    :) This is allegedly a dry fly, but with the chenille body it tends to absorb water readily.  In fact, it floats or sinks pretty much at its own discretion.  However, it has proven very effective for me whether floating high and dry, floundering in the meniscus, or completely submerged.  Not only does it not resemble any other fly I have ever seen, but the same can be said for its affinity to anything that has ever lived in a lake or stream.  Nevertheless, both trout and bluegills (and all their kin) take it readily.  Dead drifting, skittering across the surface, slow retrieve or twitching below the surface, and simply hanging in the current have all worked at various time under a variety of conditions. Any experienced tier should have no trouble figuring out how to put this one together.  One important note though:  calf tail is very slippery; don’t try to make a small neat head on this one.  I make the heads relatively long and thick in order to get a lot of thread holding the wing in place.  Be very liberal in this regard or you will find the calf tail falling out.  Newbies feel free to email me for specific instructions. Sorry Frank, I tried to be good!

Response:

Question:

I didn’t even make the freaking list–nor did I go fishing this weekend. Man alive. I guess I’m gonna hafta call my mom and tell her never to come visit again. Otherwise, I won’t be able to keep up with the Joneses…er, Wolfgangs. –Steve

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF, I find 600 messages!  Some of which were even about fishing!

Response:

…         but a night with the check out lady at the pixie motel after an evening embellished by a neil young cd marathon and re-heated pizza during rest breaks would render you positively cuddly, forty ol man.

I’m confident that "little wayno’s cuddle therapy and aerobic exercise program" would render me cuddly but I’m afraid I just couldn’t bring myself to eat re-heated pizza. — Ken Fortenberry- gotta draw the line somewhere

Response:

Lemme guess, are you in Minnesota, or thereabouts?  We had a system blow through here on Friday, had a good 7 inches on the ground Saturday morning. Put a real damper on the weekend fishing plans.

Nope..Denver.  It snowed pretty much all day Saturday, but without significant accumulation.  Sunday was nice, though, and yesterday was 80s again.

Response:

day tripper writes: CRAP! I’ve slipped to number 14 – even HWMNBN held me higher than that! /daytripper (I was Number 6 once! ;^)

And yesterday you were in #2, deep into #2 with a broken wading stick!   Shoot, if we didn’t go fishing yesterday, we coulda both been higher in the stats. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Hell Kevin, I couldn’t be "really nice" if you promised me a private concert by the Guarneri String Quartet, dinner for two catered by Rick Bayless and a night of sweaty sex with Gabrielle Reece.

        of course not; who could, left to be entertained by those pallid pretenders.         but a night with the check out lady at the pixie motel after an evening embellished by a neil young cd marathon and re-heated pizza during rest breaks would render you positively cuddly, forty ol man.         wayno

Response:

<list snipped Damn, I better start participating more. bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

Response:

Not yet maybe some time in the next week

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF, I find 600 messages!  Some of which were even about fishing! Here are the most prolific posters, in order: 61  Wolfgang Siebeniech 38  Muskie 27  Chip Bartholomay 25  Dave LaCourse     Vern Ursenbach 23  Guyz N Flyz     Ken Fortenberry 20  ET1 19  Charlie Choc 18  JeffC 1474 17  flyfish     MFassett     Peter Charles 15  Daytripper 14  Mike Connor     rw 13  Walt Winter     Wayne Harrison 10  Dave Snedeker     Warren Findley Let’s see, I have been out of the office for about 64 hours or so.  Assuming that Wolfgang sleeps 8 hours per night (though I frankly don’t have much faith in that assumption) then he was awake for 40 hours, then he fires off an average of 1.525 posts per hour while he is awake.  Though when I look at the time stamps on his posts, he often fires off messages in bursts of more than one per minute.  Hell, I couldn’t even type that fast, much less read all of the messages and think of what I wanted to say. Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing! Next weekend is a holiday, and you most likely don’t have to go to work on Friday.  Pull the plug on that damn computer, load up the fly rods and the kids and the dog or whatever, and go fishing.  Get a tan on that pasty white skin.  Next Monday, I want to see some fishing reports on here, dammit! Wolfgang, I believe its time for your friends and loved ones to do an intervention… Kevin PS.  The doctor also prescribes that you should all catch, kill, fry, and eat one cast-iron skillet full of your favorite panfish. He believes that will go a long way towards calming down the level of bitchiness that has been permeating the board for quite some time now.

Response:

Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF,

        great post.         to paraphrase a great american, who was speaking about a small college in new hampshire, may i say this about roff:         it is a small place, sir; but there are those of us who love it. wayno

Response:

stuck in the middle again…. Flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF, I find 600 messages!  Some of which were even about fishing! Here are the most prolific posters, in order: 61  Wolfgang Siebeniech 38  Muskie 27  Chip Bartholomay 25  Dave LaCourse     Vern Ursenbach 23  Guyz N Flyz     Ken Fortenberry 20  ET1 19  Charlie Choc 18  JeffC 1474 17  flyfish     MFassett     Peter Charles 15  Daytripper 14  Mike Connor     rw 13  Walt Winter     Wayne Harrison 10  Dave Snedeker     Warren Findley Let’s see, I have been out of the office for about 64 hours or so.  Assuming that Wolfgang sleeps 8 hours per night (though I frankly don’t have much faith in that assumption) then he was awake for 40 hours, then he fires off an average of 1.525 posts per hour while he is awake.  Though when I look at the time stamps on his posts, he often fires off messages in bursts of more than one per minute.  Hell, I couldn’t even type that fast, much less read all of the messages and think of what I wanted to say. Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing! Next weekend is a holiday, and you most likely don’t have to go to work on Friday.  Pull the plug on that damn computer, load up the fly rods and the kids and the dog or whatever, and go fishing.  Get a tan on that pasty white skin.  Next Monday, I want to see some fishing reports on here, dammit! Wolfgang, I believe its time for your friends and loved ones to do an intervention… Kevin PS.  The doctor also prescribes that you should all catch, kill, fry, and eat one cast-iron skillet full of your favorite panfish. He believes that will go a long way towards calming down the level of bitchiness that has been permeating the board for quite some time now.

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Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF, I find 600 messages!  Some of which were even about fishing! Here are the most prolific posters, in order: 61  Wolfgang Siebeniech 38  Muskie 27  Chip Bartholomay 25  Dave LaCourse     Vern Ursenbach 23  Guyz N Flyz     Ken Fortenberry 20  ET1 19  Charlie Choc 18  JeffC 1474 17  flyfish     MFassett     Peter Charles 15  Daytripper 14  Mike Connor     rw 13  Walt Winter     Wayne Harrison 10  Dave Snedeker     Warren Findley Let’s see, I have been out of the office for about 64 hours or so.  Assuming that Wolfgang sleeps 8 hours per night (though I frankly don’t have much faith in that assumption) then he was awake for 40 hours, then he fires off an average of 1.525 posts per hour while he is awake.  Though when I look at the time stamps on his posts, he often fires off messages in bursts of more than one per minute.  Hell, I couldn’t even type that fast, much less read all of the messages and think of what I wanted to say. Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing! Next weekend is a holiday, and you most likely don’t have to go to work on Friday.  Pull the plug on that damn computer, load up the fly rods and the kids and the dog or whatever, and go fishing.  Get a tan on that pasty white skin.  Next Monday, I want to see some fishing reports on here, dammit! Wolfgang, I believe its time for your friends and loved ones to do an intervention… Kevin PS.  The doctor also prescribes that you should all catch, kill, fry, and eat one cast-iron skillet full of your favorite panfish. He believes that will go a long way towards calming down the level of bitchiness that has been permeating the board for quite some time now.

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Here are the most prolific posters, in order:

What’s the ranking by word count? Who uses the most vowels? — Charlie…

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Geez, … I find 600 messages! …  

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and hazard a guess that you were not forced at gunpoint to read even one of those messages. Which begs the question, what in the hell are you whining about ? — Ken Fortenberry

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sunofabeech… the thought of wayno posting as much as me just rankles the shitoughta me. 14 at ya wayno ;^) waldo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF, I find 600 messages!  Some of which were even about fishing! Here are the most prolific posters, in order: 61  Wolfgang Siebeniech 38  Muskie 27  Chip Bartholomay 25  Dave LaCourse     Vern Ursenbach 23  Guyz N Flyz     Ken Fortenberry 20  ET1 19  Charlie Choc 18  JeffC 1474 17  flyfish     MFassett     Peter Charles 15  Daytripper 14  Mike Connor     rw 13  Walt Winter     Wayne Harrison 10  Dave Snedeker     Warren Findley Let’s see, I have been out of the office for about 64 hours or so.  Assuming that Wolfgang sleeps 8 hours per night (though I frankly don’t have much faith in that assumption) then he was awake for 40 hours, then he fires off an average of 1.525 posts per hour while he is awake.  Though when I look at the time stamps on his posts, he often fires off messages in bursts of more than one per minute.  Hell, I couldn’t even type that fast, much less read all of the messages and think of what I wanted to say. Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing! Next weekend is a holiday, and you most likely don’t have to go to work on Friday.  Pull the plug on that damn computer, load up the fly rods and the kids and the dog or whatever, and go fishing.  Get a tan on that pasty white skin.  Next Monday, I want to see some fishing reports on here, dammit! Wolfgang, I believe its time for your friends and loved ones to do an intervention… Kevin PS.  The doctor also prescribes that you should all catch, kill, fry, and eat one cast-iron skillet full of your favorite panfish. He believes that will go a long way towards calming down the level of bitchiness that has been permeating the board for quite some time now.

– Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com http://auctions.yahoo.com/booth/ezflyfish_com Used, Rare, & Out-of-Print Books: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

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A check was done on ROFF to see who was most prolific, Wolfgang won with sixty one, 1.525 per hour to be specific. Charlie asked then for more info, especially regarding vowels, perhaps it would be more informative to check on movements of the bowels ? This would explain a lot, and is not at all designed to slight the winner, but quite a lot of posts arise it seems from an undigested dinner, it is well known that poor digestion may result in bellyaching, and even those without this malady, seem pretty good at faking. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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/daytripper (I was Number 6 once! ;^)

Yeah, yeah.  You coulda been a contender.  Bunch a has beens and never wases.  Come ta Nort Carolina kid, I’ll learn ya sumthin.

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If you’re really nice to me, I might be able to tell you where to find a spring-fed cool water stream that has smallmouth and rock bass in it, only minutes away from the Cham-bana city limits.  But only if you’re really nice… Kevin MS Math, ‘86, UIUC

Kevin, Would you be so kind as to do me and a few other clavesters a favor…. don’t tell Ken… tell me/us. We’ll have a blast listening to him begging and whining for the details at the upcoming clave …. hell, he may even be civil if we play our cards right waldo

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… If I was, I might complain about the tone of hostility in some of the posts, but I’ve noticed that everybody who’s done that in the past has been flamed medium rare.

Whiners rarely get off medium rare. They’re usually flamed to a blackened piece of charred cinder. …  But only if you’re really nice…

Hell Kevin, I couldn’t be "really nice" if you promised me a private concert by the Guarneri String Quartet, dinner for two catered by Rick Bayless and a night of sweaty sex with Gabrielle Reece. — Ken Fortenberry

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I’m gonna go out on a limb here and hazard a guess that you were not forced at gunpoint to read even one of those messages. Which begs the question, what in the hell are you whining about ? — Ken Fortenberry

Don’t worry, I didn’t bother reading them all, and I wasn’t whining. Merely expressing amazement…  If I was, I might complain about the tone of hostility in some of the posts, but I’ve noticed that everybody who’s done that in the past has been flamed medium rare.  So I definitely won’t complain about that. If you’re really nice to me, I might be able to tell you where to find a spring-fed cool water stream that has smallmouth and rock bass in it, only minutes away from the Cham-bana city limits.  But only if you’re really nice… Kevin MS Math, ‘86, UIUC

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Also, in my own defense, I must say that I was pissing away my time at work, not my fishing time.  :-) I’ll quit now before I make my own list. Kevin

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF, I find 600 messages!  Some of which were even about fishing! Here are the most prolific posters, in order: 61  Wolfgang Siebeniech 38  Muskie 27  Chip Bartholomay 25  Dave LaCourse    Vern Ursenbach 23  Guyz N Flyz    Ken Fortenberry 20  ET1 19  Charlie Choc 18  JeffC 1474 17  flyfish    MFassett    Peter Charles 15  Daytripper 14  Mike Connor    rw 13  Walt Winter    Wayne Harrison 10  Dave Snedeker    Warren Findley

CRAP! I’ve slipped to number 14 – even HWMNBN held me higher than that! /daytripper (I was Number 6 once! ;^)

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I got a staff writes this shit for me.  Frankly, I rarely even check the board any more; who’s got time to read?.  I get hourly synopses from my secretary.  I tell her "three fuck yous, two one liners, and a couplea hey good buddies", or whatever.  Two, three lawyers and a couplea high school kids sits in the back room and write.  I get a sheet with all kindsa crap on it.  I check this one, cross out that one, yada, yada, yada.  61 over the course of the weekend, huh?  Somebody’s slippin in some of his own stuff.  I never authorized that many.  Heads will fuckin roll!!  Thanks for the heads up.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here are the most prolific posters, in order: 61  Wolfgang Siebeniech 38  Muskie 27  Chip Bartholomay 25  Dave LaCourse     Vern Ursenbach 23  Guyz N Flyz     Ken Fortenberry 20  ET1 19  Charlie Choc 18  JeffC 1474 17  flyfish     MFassett     Peter Charles 15  Daytripper 14  Mike Connor     rw 13  Walt Winter     Wayne Harrison 10  Dave Snedeker     Warren Findley Let’s see, I have been out of the office for about 64 hours or so.  Assuming that Wolfgang sleeps 8 hours per night (though I frankly don’t have much faith in that assumption) then he was awake for 40 hours, then he fires off an average of 1.525 posts per hour while he is awake.  Though when I look at the time stamps on his posts, he often fires off messages in bursts of more than one per minute.  Hell, I couldn’t even type that fast, much less read all of the messages and think of what I wanted to say. Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing! Next weekend is a holiday, and you most likely don’t have to go to work on Friday.  Pull the plug on that damn computer, load up the fly rods and the kids and the dog or whatever, and go fishing.  Get a tan on that pasty white skin.  Next Monday, I want to see some fishing reports on here, dammit! Wolfgang, I believe its time for your friends and loved ones to do an intervention…

Of course one could say the same about someone who went through the trouble of compiling a listing of the number of times people posted in a 64 hour period….     – Ken

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Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing!

Yep…sure is, but it snowed here Saturday, so there was not much fishing opportunity.  Had to do something!

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Of course one could say the same about someone who went through the trouble of compiling a listing of the number of times people posted in a 64 hour period….     – Ken

Actually, that very thought occured to me while I was doing it. Fortunately, thanks the miracle of modern technology, it didn’t take but a few clicks of the mouse to do.  I do graciously accept the honorable mention prize in the time wasting competition. Kevin

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Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing! Yep…sure is, but it snowed here Saturday, so there was not much fishing opportunity.  Had to do something!

Lemme guess, are you in Minnesota, or thereabouts?  We had a system blow through here on Friday, had a good 7 inches on the ground Saturday morning. Put a real damper on the weekend fishing plans. Kevin

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Question:

Phew. All kinds of generalities there, probably none of it of much help. But at least I didn’t skewer you ;^)

Actually, since he didn’t specify the conditions he would be fishing or his casting style, you sort of did by making him read yet another post about preferences<g. — Charlie…

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I just read through this thread hoping to pick up some reasoning for what would be the virtue of a slower action rod and I have to tell you I found almost zero usefull information.  Would you guys consider starting a new group alt.love_lost.2.old.rod?

Uh uh uh. Don’t taunt the bears! Wouldn’t be prudent. Or better yet, tell me why (and where) a slow rod beats a fast rod.

I believe that’s mostly a matter of casting style and/or experience. For many folks, especially less experienced ones, slower rods telegraph their loaded point louder than fast rods do, so a slower rod can be easier to cast – or learn to cast. The faster the rod the less obvious that same loaded-point becomes. One could make a case, I suppose, that a slower rod is easier to use in tight quarters (small streams, etc) regardless of casting style or expertise. I don’t have any wicked-fast small stream rods, they’re all moderate action or even a bit slow. I do have some real telephone poles for stripers and bluefish, however (eg: 9wt IMX, 7wt RPLX) as well as a couple of moderate-action rods (eg: 9wt IM6, 7wt IM6) and for fighting wind over the ocean I like casting the faster rods – which throw a tighter loop (very useful when casting side-arm to get down under the worst of the wind). I still have a couple of glass rods but really hated fishing saltwater with them. Too damned slow, not as much backbone, and casting a wide loop side-arm can be really risky business ;^) Phew. All kinds of generalities there, probably none of it of much help. But at least I didn’t skewer you ;^) /daytripper

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Aw c’mon Ken, the quality of free advice just wasn’t up to his standards.

I just don’t like whiners. I mean, I read his post hoping to find a really good borscht recipe. That damn post mentioned nothing whatsoever about borscht, but you don’t hear me whining about it. — Ken Fortenberry

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I feel the LL is one of Sage’s best creation.  It is one of the nicest rods to cast a line with.  I have a 389-3LL and use a Stillwater taper for most of my lake fishing.  I’ve even gone as far as using a type 2 uniform sink from SA.  It actually casted fine.   My buddy has a 489 and uses all different sink rates of lake lines on it.  You will need to make subtle changes to your casting stroke in order to make up for the slower action.  What rod do you have? Thanks, — Forrest http://www.FlyFishingREVIEW.com FlyFishingREVIEW.com win any SAGE rod! Before you buy.

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I’ll register in on the love side.   I’ve always preferred the softer action of the LL series, and the 490 LL is my absolute favorite rod ever. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any fans of the Sage Light Line Series out there?   Or for that matter, anybody hate the series? Personally I love it’s medium action and can’t believe they are discontinuing them (at least that’s what I heard).  Has anyone tried casting this rod with a sink tip or a wet line?  If so I’d particularly like to hear from you. Thinking of getting new lines for this rod but want to hear some comments/suggestions from others that have tried different line combos on this rod before rushing out to waste money.  Reason why I’m hesitating is because its light weight plus medium action might make this rod a nightmare to cast with sink tips or wet lines. Thanks!

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I also fall on the love side of the spectrum.  I think the LL and the RPL were the best rods Sage has made.   I currently own a SP+ which I use on the big open lakes and rivers out here in WA but I just bought a 2 pc. 3wt LL blank off of ebay for fishing the creeks and smaller waters.  I can’t wait to get it built.   Hopefully Sage will relearn the lesson that power isn’t everything and return to making these fine rods. Mike

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I currently own a SP+ which I use on the big open lakes and rivers out here in WA but I just bought a 2 pc. 3wt LL blank off of ebay for fishing the creeks and smaller waters.  I can’t wait to get it built.

I saw that blank and damned near went after it myself to build my wife a rod; but I just have too many rod projects in the works for the present. (Fixing my son’s epoxy & repairing my broken 9 wt.)   I’m glad I didn’t drive the price up for you.  :-) Joe F.

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I own a 9 foot 4 weight LL and love the thing. I am sick of fast action rods that stop a trout in its tracks. I also have an RPL+ 10 foot 7 weight and this is really a salmon rod. I caight a 14lb 2oz rainbow on it the other day and after a couple of minutes, the fish put its fins in the air and came quietly. Shame. I broke my big Sage in May, which is why August saw me fishing the Teifi at night for sea trout with my LL. I hooked, played and netted a fish of 5.5 lb and the fight was tremendous. So glad it wasn’t my RPL+. I have just bought a 3 piece 9 foot 6 weight SP and am dying to get out there with the thing. Softer action too, although not like the LL. The LL range is being continued, I understand, although only in a 3-piece and at a higher price. Bugger (woolly and otherwise)! Caspar – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep, I own 3 of the LL series…….2/4/6 wts.  Love ‘em.  I would class their action more as slow to medium, than strictly medium.  My casting style (if one could call it a ’style’, more like a grenade toss) is more suited to the slower action.  And no, I don’t use sinking lines on any of them because they are just not suited for throwing weight.  Having said that, I sometimes use a short piece of sinking leader to get the fly down if fishing in current or deeper water, but it is not a comfortable thing for me to do. If I’m tossing weighted buggers or need to use a sink tip, I switch to my St Croix medium action rods.  BTW, as to lines, I use SA Mastery or AirCell Supreme WF stuff.  FWIW- Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED Any fans of the Sage Light Line Series out there?   Or for that matter, anybody hate the series? Personally I love it’s medium action and can’t believe they are discontinuing them (at least that’s what I heard).  Has anyone tried casting this rod with a sink tip or a wet line?  If so I’d particularly like to hear from you. Thinking of getting new lines for this rod but want to hear some comments/suggestions from others that have tried different line combos on this rod before rushing out to waste money.  Reason why I’m hesitating is because its light weight plus medium action might make this rod a nightmare to cast with sink tips or wet lines. Thanks! Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

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I have cast a LL and am seriously thinking of getting a 489.  How do you think they compare with an SP or SPl?  Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Chris Brown

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Any fans of the Sage Light Line Series out there?  

I have a 490-4 LL that I’m quite fond of. I’ve tried several DT & WF floating lines on it, but no sinking lines. What works best for me is a Wulff TT 3/4. — Ken Fortenberry

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I own a 9 foot 4 weight LL and love the thing. I am sick of fast action rods that stop a trout in its tracks. I also have an RPL+ 10 foot 7 weight and this is really a salmon rod. I caight a 14lb 2oz rainbow on it the other day and after a couple of minutes, the fish put its fins in the air and came quietly. Shame.

[snip] Some people would say that was a good thing.

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Chris, I like the SP action and use it for the most part.  I have a couple SP+’s and in the wind and for long casting, prefer them.  I fished a SPL last spring for a week and found it just too much like a noodle.  Too slow for me. Regards, Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have cast a LL and am seriously thinking of getting a 489.  How do you think they compare with an SP or SPl?  Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Chris Brown

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I’ve had three LLs, one SP, one RPL and two RPs.  The LLs were always my favourites and my current 590 LL (an older graphite II model) will cast a type V sinktip with no problem.  Just have to open up the loop a bit, that’s all.  I do a lot of streamer fishing so all of my trout rods have to be able to throw sinktips as well as floating lines. Slow action doesn’t necessarily mean less power. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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The Sage 389LL was one of the finest small-stream dry fly rods ever created.  It was originally produced in graphite II, and is one of the few blanks that survived a transition to graphite III without problems or substantial reworking.   Interestingly enough, it won a FR&R Kudo as a 2 weight – the slower action allowed it to load effectively with a 2 or a 3.  I fished mine (lost in the fire, alas) with a Triangle Taper 2/3, and it was superb.   I sorely miss it.  Since the fire, I bought one of the new SPL rods to replace it, but it just isn’t quite the same…….                                         Michael – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I currently own a SP+ which I use on the big open lakes and rivers out here in WA but I just bought a 2 pc. 3wt LL blank off of ebay for fishing the creeks and smaller waters.  I can’t wait to get it built. I saw that blank and damned near went after it myself to build my wife a rod; but I just have too many rod projects in the works for the present. (Fixing my son’s epoxy & repairing my broken 9 wt.)   I’m glad I didn’t drive the price up for you.  :-) Joe F.

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I picked up a 490-4 LL blank on ebay recently (a major relief for me – I thought I’d lost that rod forever).  It was being sold by Drake Rod Co. – the lady told me that she had a couple of them in stock, and I believe that she also had a 490-3 LLB as well.  If anyone’s interested in contacting them drop me an email and I’ll see if I can scare up the contact info.                                 Michael Roegner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any fans of the Sage Light Line Series out there?   I have a 490-4 LL that I’m quite fond of. I’ve tried several DT & WF floating lines on it, but no sinking lines. What works best for me is a Wulff TT 3/4.

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I got a 356 LL 2 years ago ( Yep, 5′-6") and absolutely love it for the small creeks I fish. I can cast under the canopy, cart it around in the bushes without getting hung up, and it casts up to 50′ with no problems, though it’s rare I see that much open space where I use it. I understand it was discontinued last year.         Steve

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I have the 490 3LL and I absolutely adore it.  I plan to get some new lines for it soon but wasn’t sure how well it would cast heavier lines like sink tips and wet lines. After hearing from a few people that’s actually tried sink tips and full sinks, I think I will give it a try.   Afterall, I like the rod so much I want to use it for most, if not all, of my outtings, both stream and lake. Thanks for the info. Ken. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I feel the LL is one of Sage’s best creation.  It is one of the nicest rods to cast a line with.  I have a 389-3LL and use a Stillwater taper for most of my lake fishing.  I’ve even gone as far as using a type 2 uniform sink from SA.  It actually casted fine.   My buddy has a 489 and uses all different sink rates of lake lines on it.  You will need to make subtle changes to your casting stroke in order to make up for the slower action.  What rod do you have? Thanks, — Forrest http://www.FlyFishingREVIEW.com FlyFishingREVIEW.com win any SAGE rod! Before you buy.

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(Flyfis4fun) writes: I also fall on the love side of the spectrum.  I think the LL and the RPL were the best rods Sage has made.   Hopefully Sage will relearn the lesson that power isn’t everything and return to making these fine rods. Moral of the story, if you find a rod you love, buy at least three of them cause sooner or later they ain’t gonna make em no more.

Oh Mister Gear Whore, you’re my HERO!

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(Flyfis4fun) writes: I also fall on the love side of the spectrum.  I think the LL and the RPL were the best rods Sage has made.  

{snip} Hopefully Sage will relearn the lesson that power isn’t everything and return to making these fine rods.

Moral of the story, if you find a rod you love, buy at least three of them cause sooner or later they ain’t gonna make em no more. Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

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I just read through this thread hoping to pick up some reasoning for what would be the virtue of a slower action rod and I have to tell you I found almost zero usefull information.  Would you guys consider starting a new group alt.love_lost.2.old.rod?  Or better yet, tell me why (and where) a slow rod beats a fast rod. Mike

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I just read through this thread hoping to pick up some reasoning for what would be the virtue of a slower action rod and I have to tell you I found almost zero usefull information.  Would you guys consider starting a new group alt.love_lost.2.old.rod?  Or better yet, tell me why (and where) a slow rod beats a fast rod. Mike

How in the hell can you read a newsgroup with your head stuck up your ass like that ? — Ken Fortenberry

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I just read through this thread hoping to pick up some reasoning for what would be the virtue of a slower action rod and I have to tell you I found almost zero usefull information.  Would you guys consider starting a new group alt.love_lost.2.old.rod?  Or better yet, tell me why (and where) a slow rod beats a fast rod. Mike How in the hell can you read a newsgroup with your head stuck up your ass like that ?

Aw c’mon Ken, the quality of free advice just wasn’t up to his standards. What do you expect him to do, an internet search for articles or something? I mean, after all his vast contributions it seems he deserves better than this<g. — Charlie…

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I just read through this thread hoping to pick up some reasoning for what would be the virtue of a slower action rod and I have to tell you I found almost zero usefull information.  Would you guys consider starting a new group alt.love_lost.2.old.rod?  Or better yet, tell me why (and where) a slow rod beats a fast rod. Mike

Let me take a minute here to wipe the sarcasm off your post, then I’ll try and answer your question.  First off, It isn’t a case of slow vs. fast, rather that each has it’s own characteristics that you can exploit in different situations. The biggest determinant is personal preference; some people love ‘em others don’t.  For the rest of the list of characteristics, these are generalizations and there are plenty of exceptions.  For sake of argument, assume that I’m comparing a slow Orvis Superfine 5 wt, to a fast Sage RPL+ 5 wt. Slow rods (Orvis Superfine) Loads easily with only a little line Short cast, mend and roll cast well Tend to be tolerant of under and over-lining Less fatiguing over a long day of fishing More delicate presentation Fast rods (Sage RPL+) Handles the wind better Stiff butt section gives better lifting power Easier to cast long Tighter loop control Pinpoint accuracy is easier But having said all of that, a good caster can be pinpoint accurate and handle the wind with a Superfine, or lay down a delicate cast with an RPL+ so we end up back with personal preference.   But there’s another determinant that you should keep in mind.  Some rods have a progressive action while others have more radical action. By this I mean that a progressive rod will simply work further down into the butt, the longer you cast and the more power you apply.  The relationship between power and distance on the one hand and how far the rod works into the butt on the other, is more or less linear. Casting a progressive rod doesn’t really take a change of casting stroke to cast long; merely lengthen the stroke a bit and apply a little more power.  Radical actions change between tip and butt so you may have a soft tip married to a stiff butt that requires a change in your casting stroke when casting long.  Radical actions try to combine the merits of slow and fast action rods in one but you have to pay a price by altering your casting stroke to accomondate the transition between slow tip and fast butt as the casting distance lengthens. Here’s a comparison – if you took an old Sage RPL 8 wt. and a Loomis GL3 Megataper 8/9 wt., and deflection tested them with identical weights, you may find that both delfected about the same amount so they would both be considered fast.  But the Sage would be bending well into the butt while the Loomis would accomodate most of the bending in the tip. So when casting, you’d find the Loomis will short cast easier but the Sage would be easier to cast over the full limits of its range.  The Loomis action was intended for flats fishing where you’d pick up a short bit of line with the tip, load quickly then bang out 60′-70′ with the butt, all in one casting motion.  The RPL would probably need one false cast to do the same. Next time don’t be so sarcastic and I won’t make you read as much.  :) Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Yep, I own 3 of the LL series…….2/4/6 wts.  Love ‘em.  I would class their action more as slow to medium, than strictly medium.  My casting style (if one could call it a ’style’, more like a grenade toss) is more suited to the slower action.  And no, I don’t use sinking lines on any of them because they are just not suited for throwing weight.  Having said that, I sometimes use a short piece of sinking leader to get the fly down if fishing in current or deeper water, but it is not a comfortable thing for me to do.  If I’m tossing weighted buggers or need to use a sink tip, I switch to my St Croix medium action rods.  BTW, as to lines, I use SA Mastery or AirCell Supreme WF stuff.  FWIW- Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any fans of the Sage Light Line Series out there?   Or for that matter, anybody hate the series? Personally I love it’s medium action and can’t believe they are discontinuing them (at least that’s what I heard).  Has anyone tried casting this rod with a sink tip or a wet line?  If so I’d particularly like to hear from you. Thinking of getting new lines for this rod but want to hear some comments/suggestions from others that have tried different line combos on this rod before rushing out to waste money.  Reason why I’m hesitating is because its light weight plus medium action might make this rod a nightmare to cast with sink tips or wet lines. Thanks!

Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

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Any fans of the Sage Light Line Series out there?   Or for that matter, anybody hate the series? Personally I love it’s medium action and can’t believe they are discontinuing them (at least that’s what I heard).  Has anyone tried casting this rod with a sink tip or a wet line?  If so I’d particularly like to hear from you. Thinking of getting new lines for this rod but want to hear some comments/suggestions from others that have tried different line combos on this rod before rushing out to waste money.  Reason why I’m hesitating is because its light weight plus medium action might make this rod a nightmare to cast with sink tips or wet lines. Thanks!

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Question:

Well, I spent about 4 years there and I found a plain small bright neon green plastic worm drove the small mouths wild. — Eric From the Grand Canyon State. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to Star Lake in the Adirondacks later this June.  Also will visit nearby Cranberry Lake.  Both are in the northeast corner of the Adirondacks.  I am told the most common catches are smallmouth bass and trout, with occasional rock bass as consolation. Any advice for these lakes?  How about nearly streams?  We will be both fly fishing and spinning.  What kinds of flies, lures, or live baits? Techniques? Many thanks! Michael

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I am going to Star Lake in the Adirondacks later this June.  Also will visit nearby Cranberry Lake.  Both are in the northeast corner of the Adirondacks.  I am told the most common catches are smallmouth bass and trout, with occasional rock bass as consolation. Any advice for these lakes?  How about nearly streams?  We will be both fly fishing and spinning.  What kinds of flies, lures, or live baits? Techniques? Many thanks! Michael

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Most of my fishing is done in the Adirondacks. I have a web site with lots of advice regarding lure selection. Check it out. Email me if you have any questions (remove the nospam in the address) Matthew Carter "Fishing with Matt" http://www.albany.net/~buzzbait/fishing/index.htm

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Question:

says… Did I miss something? I don’t recall him admitting to be a PETA supporter/member. In fact, his fishing activities, be they what they may, are in direct conflict with the PETA agenda of outlawing *ALL* fishing. Hence, your statement about his credibility is your own misguided fallacy.

I figure that’s mostly Powseland’s doing.  I’ve been around this board for a while and he never came out and said he supported anything PeTA advocates that I remember.  Jim probably sees a  PeTA member behind every rock. Like you, I found his general slant to be contrary to their agenda.  Go figure. Things are a little dull with Tim absent. </c

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I stand uncorrected, no mention of PETA. Tim admits to a love for animals….I have no problem with that. Do you have a problem with it? This all started with a c&r vs. c&k bs debate. Tim kills for his table….he’s not the first nor will he be the last. If you choose to release, good for you. If Tim kills, good for him as long as it is done legally. He claims to fish legally. I choose to do both this year. Last year I caught and released well over 1,000 trout and intentionally killed 0. I’m sure some later died from their "experience" with my fly. If you subscribe to the 15% mortality figure that is bandied about, than over 150 fish died for the sake of my  selfish pleasure. This year I plan on enjoying some on my table and to slow down on the quantity c&r game. I know this decision will actually let more trout live….go figure…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did I miss something? I don’t recall him admitting to be a PETA supporter/member. Yes you missed it. I don’t have the time to dig it out of Deja News. Why don’t you? I would appreciate it greatly. To help you out, he admitted to it just before he left r.o.f.f. BTW, Moe Skeeter is alive and well in other newsgroups. Go to In fact, his fishing activities, be they what they may, are in direct conflict with the PETA agenda of outlawing *ALL* fishing. I suspect he once fished but gave it up years ago. He nows uses his past experience to dupe real anglers like yourself. I believe I found the article you are referring to, I’ll paste it below… For the record, it doesn’t say he is a PETA supporter, but that he is an animal rights supporter.  I personally don’t believe that he has ulterior motives, I think he is doing what he believes to be best.  It’s just that he thinks that what he believes is the only correct belief and what anyone else believes is completely wrong and is disgracing a fish and fly-fishing.   Is it just me, or does anyone else wonder if Tim, Muskie, and Vandenman are the same person?  :-)  I don’t know if I’d be more frightened to find out they were the same person or three different people.  :-O Later,     – Ken — Not speaking for Intel rec.outdoors.fishing .fly) Newsgroups:   rec.outdoors.fishing.fly No…if it wasn’t for the mellowness brought on by an occasional good homebrew, I’d be much worse.  Beleive me. On second thought, I agree with you. You do seem to have a lot of hate, anger and fear, which is quite common in AR-supporters. That’s because you piss us both off…<g… That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter.  What wildlife love among us is not ? There are some things that are wrong…like the guy that buried those puppies alive…we need AR laws so that we can prosecute bastards like that.  I have simply drawn the line and "Pure C&R fishing" happens to live on that side of the line which includes other ‘pure sport’ hunting and fishing such as Trophy Big Game Hunting and Prarie Dog shoots. We should not kill, maim, harass or cause undue stress to wild animals…unless we plan to eat them or otherwise use them…which is clearly covered as acceptible. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

– The Blue Ridge Book Gallery | We are located 8 miles south of Boone on Rt. 1 Box 975-23            | Hiway 105 in Foscoe in the heart of the Banner Elk, NC 28604        | beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains. Please (704) 963-5001              | visit us when you’re in the area.                             |  Thanks….Marie & Walter Winter http://www.mercury.net/~wgwinter/         also on Interloc…

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Just a random thought here, but does it take T-BONE’S endless rantings and ravings to prompt some of you regulars (you know who you are) to post?? All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure.  Is his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers?   -Mark

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Michael K Skorey wrote Just a random thought here, but does it take T-BONE’S endless rantings and ravings to prompt some of you regulars (you know who you are) to post?? All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure.  Is his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers?  

You can find out whether your hypothesis is true by simply stating of your on nonsense. Just make sure you fire it up with equal parts of controversy, arrogance and curmudgeonry . —                                                       -dnc-

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: : All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure.  Is : his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers?   Well, I’m not one of the ruffled one’s since I’m usually on his side, but I don’t really fish that often since moving from Colorado to the southern desert of New Mexico, so I can’t report on anything I did or learned. I’m spending more of my "leisure" computer time on horse and donkey discussions, as that’s where my interest lies for now. But this spring I *will* be heading into the Gila to catch up on catching trout. If all goes well my burro will be packing my gear  ;-) JonCook.

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<snip : learned. I’m spending more of my "leisure" computer time on horse and : donkey discussions, as that’s where my interest lies for now. But this I’m guessing you’d want to go with a 9 or 10 weight for a horse or donkey, wouldn’t you?  Do they feed on the surface? —                        http://members.tripod.com/~trunculo/index

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Just a random thought here, but does it take T-BONE’S endless rantings and ravings to prompt some of you regulars (you know who you are) to post?? All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure.  Is his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers?   -Mark

I didn’t find the absence of the regulars as intriguing as the sudden emergence of a lot of new (or occasional) posters. He certainly stokes the fires of debate in ROFF, but the heat seems also to keep many away.  An interesting trade-off, eh? Peter

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says… All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure. Hmmm, I’m not sure T-Bone’s departure is temporary. After admitting that he is a PETA supporter, he pretty much blew his cover. And credibility.

Did I miss something? I don’t recall him admitting to be a PETA supporter/member. In fact, his fishing activities, be they what they may, are in direct conflict with the PETA agenda of outlawing *ALL* fishing. Hence, your statement about his credibility is your own misguided fallacy.

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: : I’m guessing you’d want to go with a 9 or 10 weight for a horse or : donkey, wouldn’t you? Heck even an 8 is sufficient, but you have to go back to fiberglass, because the fast-action graphite stings too much when you whack ‘em. JonCook.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did I miss something? I don’t recall him admitting to be a PETA supporter/member. Yes you missed it. I don’t have the time to dig it out of Deja News. Why don’t you? I would appreciate it greatly. To help you out, he admitted to it just before he left r.o.f.f. BTW, Moe Skeeter is alive and well in other newsgroups. Go to In fact, his fishing activities, be they what they may, are in direct conflict with the PETA agenda of outlawing *ALL* fishing. I suspect he once fished but gave it up years ago. He nows uses his past experience to dupe real anglers like yourself.

I believe I found the article you are referring to, I’ll paste it below… For the record, it doesn’t say he is a PETA supporter, but that he is an animal rights supporter.  I personally don’t believe that he has ulterior motives, I think he is doing what he believes to be best.  It’s just that he thinks that what he believes is the only correct belief and what anyone else believes is completely wrong and is disgracing a fish and fly-fishing.   Is it just me, or does anyone else wonder if Tim, Muskie, and Vandenman are the same person?  :-)  I don’t know if I’d be more frightened to find out they were the same person or three different people.  :-O Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for Intel rec.outdoors.fishing .fly) Newsgroups:   rec.outdoors.fishing.fly No…if it wasn’t for the mellowness brought on by an occasional good homebrew, I’d be much worse.  Beleive me. On second thought, I agree with you. You do seem to have a lot of hate, anger and fear, which is quite common in AR-supporters.

That’s because you piss us both off…<g… That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter.  What wildlife love among us is not ? There are some things that are wrong…like the guy that buried those puppies alive…we need AR laws so that we can prosecute bastards like that.  I have simply drawn the line and "Pure C&R fishing" happens to live on that side of the line which includes other ‘pure sport’ hunting and fishing such as Trophy Big Game Hunting and Prarie Dog shoots. We should not kill, maim, harass or cause undue stress to wild animals…unless we plan to eat them or otherwise use them…which is clearly covered as acceptible. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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where I live trout season never closes  -  sort of an endless summer (just lots and lots of rain in certain months!) Peter

Moe asked me to ask you if there are any trout left?

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says… I stand uncorrected, no mention of PETA. Quote: "That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter. TimW" What part of "Animal Rights supporter" don’t you understand?

The part where he states he is a card carrying member for PEOPLE FOR THE ETHICAL TREATMENT OF ANIMALS, or to clarify it further, PETA. You said he was a PETA member/supporter….you intentionally misled the group, hence THE BIG LIE….save your stories for the river where it is acceptable to stretch a tale.

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Hey Ralphie, I thought you had gone on sabbatical too.  

no – I’ve just been very busy … 25 days, 2 hours and 41 minutes before trout season opens, I’m not going to make.

where I live trout season never closes  -  sort of an endless summer (just lots and lots of rain in certain months!) Peter

Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah .. . he needed a break. But don’t ya’ think he might be lurking right now enjoying, all the ‘where’s Tim – I miss all the fascinatin’ dust ups he precipitated ‘ thinkin’ … hey they really do love me!" and preparing for a dramatic return! Then he’ll begin repeating himself all over again. Who said the LP is dead? Oh that’s just Tim – thought it was time to dust off my old 45’s. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Hey Ralphie, I thought you had gone on sabbatical too.   25 days, 2 hours and 41 minutes before trout season opens, I’m not going to make. Peter

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Face it guys, You all miss Tim with his rantings and and provocations. He has helped to keep people reading the group in times when nothing else in the group was worth reading. After I posted something, I enjoyed sitting back and waiting for the novel way Tim would string curses together, to describe it and me. But it was time for him to take a rest as he was begining to repeat himself. Peter

yeah .. . he needed a break. But don’t ya’ think he might be lurking right now enjoying, all the ‘where’s Tim – I miss all the fascinatin’ dust ups he precipitated ‘ thinkin’ … hey they really do love me!" and preparing for a dramatic return! Then he’ll begin repeating himself all over again. Who said the LP is dead? Oh that’s just Tim – thought it was time to dust off my old 45’s. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well, I’ve avoided responding to Jim P. for years now, but I see it’s about time… : So he says. Actually, I think it is just a lie. Timbo probably was an : angler in the past but he is no longer. And that just goes to show you that you live in your own little world. I’ve personally seen him bonk fish in the last year. I’ve said it before — with all the analogies Tim has made of fishing with hunting (i.e., providing food through sport, not playing trout golf), you oughtta be his staunchest supporter…if you really are a hunter…then again, maybe you are the one with the hidden PETA agenda… JonCook.

Jon this really cracked me up! Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Face it guys, You all miss Tim with his rantings and and provocations. He has helped to keep people reading the group in times when nothing else in the group was worth reading. Discussions about which areas are hot and not, where to fish and how well we just did in this stream at this hole on this day with this fly just don’t happen in this group. I can’t blame anyone for that,  I don’t want the whole world to know the prime spots I fish either. But in times when there is very little trout fly fishing going on (such as last winter), Timbo helped to spark an ember or two. I thought the best was the thread about the ass backwards lawyer who wanted to abolish Tim from the group. (kind of looks like it worked in retrospect). "end commercial fishing on all salmonids" Cheers

After I posted something, I enjoyed sitting back and waiting for the novel way Tim would string curses together, to describe it and me. But it was time for him to take a rest as he was begining to repeat himself. Peter

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I didn’t find the absence of the regulars as intriguing as the sudden emergence of a lot of new (or occasional) posters. He certainly stokes the fires of debate in ROFF, but the heat seems also to keep many away.  An interesting trade-off, eh? Peter

Face it guys, You all miss Tim with his rantings and and provocations. He has helped to keep people reading the group in times when nothing else in the group was worth reading. Discussions about which areas are hot and not, where to fish and how well we just did in this stream at this hole on this day with this fly just don’t happen in this group. I can’t blame anyone for that,  I don’t want the whole world to know the prime spots I fish either. But in times when there is very little trout fly fishing going on (such as last winter), Timbo helped to spark an ember or two.  I thought the best was the thread about the ass backwards lawyer who wanted to abolish Tim from the group. (kind of looks like it worked in retrospect). "end commercial fishing on all salmonids" Cheers

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Well, I’ve avoided responding to Jim P. for years now, but I see it’s about time… : I stand uncorrected, no mention of PETA. : : Quote: "That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter. TimW" Well, again, no mention of PETA… : What part of "Animal Rights supporter" don’t you understand? So now you change the question from your original one… : Neither do I. It is called animal welfare. Animal *rights* is something : else entirely. If you’ve actually read the threads that have transpired, you’d know that Tim’s definition of "animal rights" is nowhere near what your definition is…so quit applying your narrow AR==PETA definition. It doesn’t fit. You all have twisted Tim’s words through the years, forcing him to make his own phrases, like "pure catch and release" — and then you assail him for it. Well, here’s the perfect example. Everyone except Jim knows that Tim did not mean the PETA agenda when he said "animal rights". : Tim kills for his table….he’s not the first nor will he be the last. : : So he says. Actually, I think it is just a lie. Timbo probably was an : angler in the past but he is no longer. And that just goes to show you that you live in your own little world. I’ve personally seen him bonk fish in the last year. You have no clue about what you write. I’ve said it before — with all the analogies Tim has made of fishing with hunting (i.e., providing food through sport, not playing trout golf), you oughtta be his staunchest supporter…if you really are a hunter…then again, maybe you are the one with the hidden PETA agenda… JonCook.

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Quote: "That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter. TimW" What part of "Animal Rights supporter" don’t you understand? Tim admits to a love for animals….I have no problem with that. Neither do I. It is called animal welfare. Animal *rights* is something else entirely. Do you have a problem with it? I have a problem with AR, not AW.

I USED to think there wasn’t any difference between Animal Rights and animal welfare. However, I’ve learned that when rights are given to animals, instead of animal welfare which protects them with laws requiring humane treatment, a whole nasty can of worms is opened up. It seems like a subtle difference but think of the consequences of assigning rights to animals.  A few to start: no eating of animal flesh, no pets or domesticated animals, no leather, no milk, ice cream or cheese, no animal research, etc. Willi

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I didn’t find the absence of the regulars as intriguing as the sudden emergence of a lot of new (or occasional) posters. He certainly stokes the fires of debate in ROFF, but the heat seems also to keep many away.  An interesting trade-off, eh?

Peter:  Good observation, at least because it agrees with mine!  That is, I have also noticed the emergence of some new posters since the C&R/C&K threads have died away.  In any event, you have to give Timbo credit for this – even his absence can provoke controversy, as well as the longest thread here in weeks. Mark Faulkner

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I didn’t find the absence of the regulars as intriguing as the sudden emergence of a lot of new (or occasional) posters. He certainly stokes the fires of debate in ROFF, but the heat seems also to keep many away.  An interesting trade-off, eh?

That kind of "debate" does keep people away.  I checked out this newsgroup about three years ago and quickly decided it wasn’t what I wanted to read every day.   I think it’s a lot friendlier now, not that Tim was ever unfriendly to me… on the contrary, actually; he e-mailed me answers to some of my questions and was quite encouraging. Ironically, it’s messages like this one I’m typing that I don’t want to see, so I’m done typing now!  I want to read about Fly Fishing!   Leave the debating to the after-fishing pub visits. Bob Scott

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Dave Tatosian wrote    "FiddleAway" wrote You can find out whether your hypothesis is true by simply stating of your o[w]n nonsense. Just make sure you fire it up with equal parts of controversy, arrogance and curmudgeonry .

Sorry ta ruffle your feathers, ol’ fart! …  8-) —                                                       -dnc-

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From the Deep South New Zealand

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Michael K Skorey wrote Just a random thought here, but does it take T-BONE’S endless rantings and ravings to prompt some of you regulars (you know who you are) to post?? All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure.  Is his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers?   You can find out whether your hypothesis is true by simply stating of your o[w]n nonsense. Just make sure you fire it up with equal parts of controversy, arrogance and curmudgeonry .

HEY! Leave us curmudgeons out of this. Walker couldn’t qualify as a curmudgeon on a bet! /dave (Charter Member of CU – "Curmudgeons Unlimited")

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Question:

I am going to the Glacier Park area the 1st week of August. I will be on the west side near Polebridge for 3 days, and then move to a spot near East Glacier.  I wonder if anyone who has fished these areas can give me a hint as to what to expect, where to fish, what to use, etc. I will be wading, but will bring my float tube as well. Many thanks, Mark

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I am going to the Glacier Park area the 1st week of August. I will be on the west side near Polebridge for 3 days, and then move to a spot near East Glacier.  I wonder if anyone who has fished these areas can give me a hint as to what to expect, where to fish, what to use, etc. I will be wading, but will bring my float tube as well.

Hi Mark Good fishing in the North Fork of the Flathead.  Also if you are going to be in the East Glacier area you should go fish the lakes on the Blackfeet Indian Reservation near Browning.  They are awesome. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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check with people at http://www.cyberport.net/ecs/wwater/gnwwater.html or http://www.cyberport.net/ecs/troutski/troutski.html These people will know — Electronic Cottage Services http://www.cyberport.net/ecs/lakeco/business/ecs/ecshome.html PO Box 81 Polson, MT 59860 406-887-2899

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Question:

I am going on a fly in late June with a Co. Called North of Sixty. Aybody have anything to  report, good fishing?, good experience? etc? Jerry

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I am going on a fly in late June with a Co. Called North of Sixty. Aybody have anything to  report, good fishing?, good experience? etc? Jerry

I have not fished with North of Sixty myself because I have run into dissatisfied fishermen in the airport returning from their trips. Check references and if you hear of a problem, discuss it with the guy from whom you booked the trip. Kasba Lake Lodge has a good reputation and is in the general area that North of Sixty fishes.  I have fished with Nueltin Lake Lodge and Outposts, Scott Lake Lodge and Athabasca Lake Lodge and Outposts in that area.  I’ll be fishing with Nueltin again in June. Good luck on your trip.  E-mail if you want to trade tips on fishing in the NWT. Bruce

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Question:

Hello all, I just wanted to let you know about a fine source of literature that covers the trout of the Sierra mountain range.  The book is:   _Sierra Trout Guide_   by Ralph Cutter   1991   Frank Amato Publications   Box 82112   Portland, Oregon   97282   (503) 653-8108   ISBN:  1-878175-02-5  (Softbound–$19.95)   ISBN:  1-878175-03-3  (Hardbound–???) For those that may have an earlier edition of this book, Mr. Cutter claims that this (revised) edition contains over 1200 changes in the trout distribution charts, more scientific genealogy, and more detailed insect information. This book comprises ten years of research over which Ralph Cutter has accumulated probably the most extensive collection of Sierra trout-related information to be found anywhere!  (When I read this book, I was seriously impressed.)  For each species of trout found in the Sierra mountain range, Mr. Cutter describes the history (including introduction and evolution), physique, location, and decline or possible extinction of its populations. Accompanying all descriptions are exceptional illustrations by Joe Tomelleri. Mr. Cutter also includes short chapters covering tackle and hiking in the Sierra environment. The most useful information for fishing persons is the incredible collection of trout location and feeding information.  Mr. Cutter has charts that list the trout that inhabit 550 rivers and 1700 lakes.  However, I was most impressed by the section on trout food which describes the reproduction cycle, physique, and habits of many insects and other life.  Some descriptions even include the time of day which some insects usually appear in the open!  There is also a time table for insect hatchings on the Truckee river. Mr. Cutter’s writing reflects a high sensitivity and appreciation for our (and the trouts’) environment.  This book would make a great gift, but more importantly, I think it’s a must for every Sierra trout angler! Good fishing, Randal

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Nice report – Thanks, –Alan

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Hello all, I just wanted to let you know about a fine source of literature that covers the trout of the Sierra mountain range.  The book is:  _Sierra Trout Guide_  by Ralph Cutter

I’d like to second the recommendation.   For those that may have an earlier edition of this book, Mr. Cutter claims that this (revised) edition contains over 1200 changes in the trout distribution charts, more scientific genealogy, and more detailed insect information.

I have both editions.  They bear little resemblance to each other.  The first edition had an interesting chapter on the history of trout Native to the Sierra.  It turned into a fairly diatribe that was more an expressing of opinions about C&R, river management, etc. than factual information.  Fortunately, his new edition focuses on facts rather than opinions.   One claim that Ralph Cutter makes is that Sierra trout do not feed on adult mosquitoes.  I don’t know if they do or not but they’ll hit an imitation. For each species of trout found in the Sierra mountain range, Mr. Cutter describes the history (including introduction and evolution), physique, location, and decline or possible extinction of its populations. Accompanying all descriptions are exceptional illustrations by Joe Tomelleri. the time of day which some insects usually appear in the open!  There is also a time table for insect hatchings on the Truckee river.

Ralph and Lisa Cutter live in Truckee.  I know a couple of people that have taken their flyfishing and flytying classes.  The general flyfishing/casting class got lots of kudos.  The flytying class didn’t. — John Fereira Viacom Cable Pleasanton, CA

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Question:

Wayne Trzyna writes: I don’t know whether C&R kills fish or not, but it sure makes ‘em nervous. Nonetheless, I think that C&R is not as hard on the resource as catch & keep. There are some very productive C&R fisheries located next to major population centers.  (Productive, that is, if one is skilled in outsmarting extremely nervous fish.)  I know of no such heavily fished but productive C&K fisheries (except during the first several hours after the hatchery truck drives away).

Well said. Love those Nervous fish !

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Charles Nahm writes: I can’t believe that 2% of Pat’s catch is killed!  Responsible C&R with artificial bait  should result in much lower kills than that depending on hook type & size and handling technique.  Throwing fish over your shoulder probable doesn’t count as responsible C&R. I saw this technique recently on a fishing show. As a fly fisherman I can’t remember the last fish I had die.   I guess maybe I’ve had a few on large streamers.  Way under 1 in a thousand though.   One thing you may have overlooked and that Pat Heron may have been factoring in Chip, is the fact that not all catch and release deaths are immediate.  If a fish receives serious stress from a prolonged struggle, it may be liable to swim away after you release it and die somewhere else in the lake.  Although it is very admirable on your part to desire or attain to a 99.9% successful release rate.

Pat never claimed that 2% of his fish die with C&R.  Pat’s name was invoked by someone using his catch record as a justification or rationalization for keeping fish. A serious C&R fisherman never prolongs the struggle.  Even +20 inch trout on size 20 flys can be landed in a few minutes by a skilled angler.  Again if you release the fish slowly (I’ve held fish for 5 minutes or more and had them rest in the lee of my boot for another five minutes) in gentle water your kill rate will be much less than 2%.  "Lassen Trout" a trophy pond (stocking genetically altered trophy trout in a couple of ponds) estimates their losses at under 0.2% (These are fish that are in the 22 inch to + 10 pound range).  They’ve been operating for several years so they got pretty good data by now.  They’ve got a large investment in these fish, they have to know how to manage their resource.

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I haven’t followed this whole thread because I was fishing in Montana when it started, but I would like to contribute a thought I proposed in our local TU newsletter a couple years ago. Most people who responded supported the idea, but it hasn’t really led to anything yet. I proposed that people who want to fish blue-ribbon, C&R waters should have to pay a slightly higher license fee, and that the additional revenue from that fee should support hatchery programs. I reason thus: planting more trout in heavily fished streams close to the cities would encourage the "yahoos" (as one poster described them) to fish nearer home to fill their freezers. Those same people would probably not pay the higher fee to go farther to catch fish they couldn’t keep. Now, some might object that those of us who supposedly care more about protecting the "natural" resource shouldn’t have to pay more than those who would simply rape and pillage, especially to support their habit. I don’t disagree, but I think we have to recognize some realities. We’ll never turn all trout streams into blue ribbon streams, and the demand for kill your limit and higher limits will continue to put political pressure on fish and game departments (in some states at least) to resist too much quality fishing as the rest of us define it. I look at it as willingness to pay for a privilege. Any thoughts? gc

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says: I guess that put and take locations help keep the yahoos out of the more restricted locations. The yahoos (your term) do their share of filling their stringers but in many cases this is important because these C&K streams often don’t have the water quality past early summer to support trout.  The yahoos do an efficient job of cleaning out the trout before the hot weather takes over.

Anyone who spends his free time trying to outsmart creatures with an immeasurably small IQ is a yahoo.  ’Guess that includes all of us. — -Wayne Trzyna

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Wayne, YAHOO!!!!!  The bottom line…we all qualify.                                 Scott

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I proposed that people who want to fish blue-ribbon, C&R waters should have to pay a slightly higher license fee, and that the additional revenue from that fee should support hatchery programs. I reason thus: planting more trout in heavily fished streams close to the cities would encourage the "yahoos" (as one poster described them) to fish nearer home to fill their freezers. Those same people would probably not pay the higher fee to go farther to catch fish they couldn’t keep. Now, some might object that those of us who supposedly care more about protecting the "natural" resource shouldn’t have to pay more than those who would simply rape and pillage, especially to support their habit. I don’t disagree, but I think we have to recognize some realities. We’ll never turn all trout streams into blue ribbon streams, and the demand for kill your limit and higher limits will continue to put political pressure on fish and game departments (in some states at least) to resist too much quality fishing as the rest of us define it. I look at it as willingness to pay for a privilege. Any thoughts?

Anyone, can pay an extra fee for the privilege to fish a blue ribbon fee. That doesn’t guarentee that the person is more concerned about protecting the natural resource.  How about requireing that applicant for the special privileges license answer a few questions about preserving.  Sort of a drivers license for fishing.  If someone is going to allowed access to a blue ribbon stream, they should at least know the proper technique for releasing fish so that it may be there another day.   John

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I have just a little bit more to add to the C&R thread. Suppose Pat Heron catches 1000 fish a year, and releases them all like a good guy, and he’s careful so 98% of them survive. That’s 20 dead fish per year. Now I catch well under 100 fish per year (*well*). Why should I feel guilty if I kill 10 of them? I’m not being nearly as hard on the resource as Pat. -Not catching too many fish in New Jersey, and proud of it too! -john — John Danskin                    | Computer Science Graduate Student (609) 258-5386                  | Graphics systems: network graphics & m-media (609) 258-1771 fax              | Escape from Princeton planned 8/94.

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-Not catching too many fish in New Jersey, and proud of it too!

Hence the reason some want to put bag limits on CAR. Though too complex to implement, water temps and flows certainly have an effect on CAR mortality, and should probably determine the limit. Reasonable anglers regulate themselves already. Thomas Gilg

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| | I have just a little bit more to add to the C&R thread. | | Suppose Pat Heron catches 1000 fish a year, and releases them | all like a good guy, and he’s careful so 98% of them survive. | | That’s 20 dead fish per year. | | Now I catch well under 100 fish per year (*well*). Why should | I feel guilty if I kill 10 of them? I’m not being nearly as hard | on the resource as Pat. | | -Not catching too many fish in New Jersey, and proud of it too! | -john John, You are exactly RIGHT.  If keeping 10 fish/year will harm a resource, then no one should probably be fishing there anyway. A guy who golfs at the same golfcourse every day will probably dig it up more in a year than a guy who golfs 4 times a year.   However, the golfing fantatic may also be alot more consciencious about how he treats the grounds because it is his major avocation.  In the case of fishing, the avid angler may be more likely to belong to or contribute to organizations (such as NCWF) which actively seek to protect and improve resources.  I will add that I have not seen any *floaters* from the fish that I have released this year (although some may die later).   I wonder what the statistics are on catch-immediate release vs.  catch – livewell – tournament weigh-in-release. If the tourney boys claim 98-percent, certainly immediate release is somewhat better. I also think that in the summer in the South, 98-percent survival is a bit too generous.  When the water gets into the 90’s there is damn little 02 disolved.  I feel that when you hook a bass in 20ft of water in the summer, they are in cooler slightly more oxygenated water.  Still 02 is low, and the fish quickly aquires a severe oxygen debt during the fight.  When this severly stressed bass is returned to the hottest surface layer, they can have trouble. This problem is compounded if the fish goes into the sizzling hot livewell (B.A.S.S. recommends that you ice down your livewell and use continuous aeration in the summer). After weigh-ins at local tournaments there are often several floaters.  The smart clubs police the release location and pick up the fish who don’t make it so as not to add fuel to the fire of public sentiment against tournament angling. Not catching that many in NC lately either and damn embarrased…                         -Pat. BTW, can anyone recommend a good captain/boat for a tuna/dolphin (aka dorado) charter out of NC?

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says: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (wayne trzyna) writes: | I don’t know whether C&R kills fish or not, but it sure makes ‘em nervous. | Nonetheless, I think that C&R is not as hard on the resource as catch &    . keep | There are some very productive C&R fisheries located next to major         n populatio | centers.  (Productive, that is, if one is skilled in outsmarting extremely | nervous fish.)  I know of no such heavily fished but productive C&K        s fisherie | (except during the first several hours after the hatchery truck drives     . away) | | — | | -Wayne Trzyna Wayne, This sounds like sports fishing at its best.  Why not cut out the middle-man and allow anglers to fish in the back of the DNR truck? I guess that put and take locations help keep the yahoos out of the more restricted locations.                        -Pat.

COUPLE OF THOUGHTS:  In Pennsylvania the DER spends huge amounts managing C&K fisheries.  They work very well and the state has a close-to-religious experience with the opening of trout season (deer season also).  The kids are out of school and many people use a vacation day to skip work (or get a mysterious illness that coincides with opening day). The yahoos (your term) do their share of filling their stringers but in many cases this is important because these C&K streams often don’t have the water quality past early summer to support trout.  The yahoos do an efficient job of cleaning out the trout before the hot weather takes over. I would say (in our area) that this fishery helps to cut down on those inclined to violate the special regs areas.  We have a full gamut of special regs waters including entire streams of C&R, flyfish only, trophy waters etc. The good part of all this:  most of the early season "fishermen" hang up their equipment about the time the good hatches start!!  I’ve also spent some great opening weekends on special regs waters without seeing another person…and catching many more (and better quality) fish than I could in a stocked stream. Around here we tend to use the stocked streams as entertainment.  Always fun to watch the people struggle with each other, fish the kids out of the water after falling in, …you get the idea.  Scott Maitland

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| I don’t know whether C&R kills fish or not, but it sure makes ‘em nervous. | Nonetheless, I think that C&R is not as hard on the resource as catch & keep. | There are some very productive C&R fisheries located next to major population | centers.  (Productive, that is, if one is skilled in outsmarting extremely | nervous fish.)  I know of no such heavily fished but productive C&K fisheries | (except during the first several hours after the hatchery truck drives away). | | — | | -Wayne Trzyna Wayne, This sounds like sports fishing at its best.  Why not cut out the middle-man and allow anglers to fish in the back of the DNR truck? I guess that put and take locations help keep the yahoos out of the more restricted locations.                         -Pat.

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Suppose Pat Heron catches 1000 fish a year, and releases them all like a good guy, and he’s careful so 98% of them survive. That’s 20 dead fish per year. Now I catch well under 100 fish per year (*well*). Why should I feel guilty if I kill 10 of them? I’m not being nearly as hard on the resource as Pat.

I can’t believe that 2% of Pat’s catch is killed!  Responsible C&R with artificial bait  should result in much lower kills than that depending on hook type & size and handling technique.  Throwing fish over your shoulder probable doesn’t count as responsible C&R. I saw this technique recently on a fishing show. As a fly fisherman I can’t remember the last fish I had die.   I guess maybe I’ve had a few on large streamers.  Way under 1 in a thousand though.  

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| | This problem is compounded if the fish goes into the sizzling hot | | livewell (B.A.S.S. recommends that you ice down your livewell and | | use continuous aeration in the summer). | | I wonder about icing down your livewell too. I put a live pickerel into | an ice chest full of water and ice, and it died (convulsions and then nothing) | pretty much instantly. Temperature shocks in either direction can be harmful. | I guess you just have to use common sense when you decide hom much ice to | put in. I just wanted my pickerel to last until dinner time, and he (she it) | lasted just as well dead as he (she it) would have lasted alive. | | -john I agree,  I don’t think that pulling a bass from a 90f weedbed and throwing it into a 40f livewell (later to be released into 92f surface water) will do the bass alot of good. I also have had trouble with chain pickerel in the warmer months.  I have had several die while trying to practice C&R. I have found that they (along with lure of course) can get really tangled in a landing net having a fabric bag.  The little bit of time it takes to untangle them can be long enough for asphixiation. They can often be released much more quickly if landed by hand.  This exercise is not without its own perils.  I still laugh when I remember John sitting in the boat with the front treble of a Mann’s baby 1- stuck through his pants and into his leg, the back treble was in the mouth of a wildly thrashing 26-inch chain pickerel. (This was even more entertaining then the time when John was helping me remove the hook from a 7# channel cat, the cat grabbed his thumb and rolled and sprained his thumb).                         -Pat.

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It would be interesting to rank the relative importance of:      1. Hook selection            - single or treble            - wire diameter            - hook size      2. Playing time  **        - build up of acids            - exhaustion      3. Damage caused during fight            - damage from line strafing fish                 – body  **             – gills            - damage from fish hitting bottom or hard splash-downs            - setting hook to hard on small fish and launching them              airborne    Smolts especially susceptable.      4. Water conditions  *         – temperature            - pollution            - flow  *         – oxygenation      5. Condition of fish            - prespawn, postspawn, other times            - natural ability to handle stress      6. Handling of fish  *         – contact with gills  **        - damage to slime layer  *         – grip pressure resulting in internal damage  **        - time out of water – exposure to air            - damage caused from removing hook      7. Angler recovery period            - technique used for release      8. Post-Angler recovery period            - predators taking advantage of recovering fish  **        - Continued acid buildup and eventual recovery from Single "*" items seem to be touted in most CAR literature, and the "**" items have been called out in reports/studies I’ve seen as major factors. The better CAR studies track the fish for *days* after release, since most CAR mortality happens long after (12 hrs to 2 or 3 days) the angler releases the fish – even the zippy releases often turn fatal because of the continuing chemical buildups *after* CAR. Thomas Gilg

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Treble hooks should be banned, if anything.

I’ll second that!                                 Mark — <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Harris Space Systems            ::                         Melbourne, FL

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| This problem is compounded if the fish goes into the sizzling hot | livewell (B.A.S.S. recommends that you ice down your livewell and | use continuous aeration in the summer). I wonder about icing down your livewell too. I put a live pickerel into an ice chest full of water and ice, and it died (convulsions and then nothing) pretty much instantly. Temperature shocks in either direction can be harmful. I guess you just have to use common sense when you decide hom much ice to put in. I just wanted my pickerel to last until dinner time, and he (she it) lasted just as well dead as he (she it) would have lasted alive. -john

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Though too complex to implement, water temps and flows certainly have an effect on CAR mortality, and should probably determine the limit. Reasonable anglers regulate themselves already.

How fish are handled has more to do with mortality than total number of fish caught and released.  At least, that is my intuition.   Treble hooks should be banned, if anything. — -Wayne Trzyna

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