Question:

Thanks Noah. Yes I am planning on starting out from Chokoloskee.  I will be paddling with the wife.  My friend and his wife will be going also.  He is familiar with the area and we will be traveling together, in separate canoes of course. Yes, you can catch Tarpon in a canoe.  Just tighten the drag down and let him pull you around for a while until he gets tired. Hopefully be there in March.  Thanks for the info.  The canoe is in my backyard as I type this.  Woo Hoo! Frosty – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like a doable choice to me. I paddled around out there for about three weeks a couple Februaries ago and, although I don’t own a Chgamplain, a friend of mine does and I’ve done a couple overnighters with her in it (you know what I mean). I’ve found that the Champlain’s relatively low profile does well in the waves and wind and, if you’re planning on paddling at all on the outside down there, that’ll be most important. I gotta say that paddling solo in that wind might be quite a challenge. At 18′, even with a relatively low profile, you’ll get pushed around solo pretty good. The boat tracks very well, however, and if you really load it up, you’ll do as well as in any other. Are you gonna fish? I was almost afraid to, being a wimpy trout fisherman, the thought of a 35 pound tarpon on my fly rod was a bit intimidating. I know they do it on those fishing shows, but geez. Where are you going? I used Chokoloskee as a base and bumped around in the 10000 islands, stopping to get water every 6 days or so, of course there were two of us so solo you might not need to come out so often. If you haven’t been there before, make sure you reserve campsites with the rangers, try to get the chickees – lean-tos in the water, raised on stilts – ("land" sites are either mud pits or skeeter infested like you wouldn’t believe, worse than black flies in Quebec), and be careful about trying to stretch days – the campsites are relatively few and far between. Adios. Jealous. PS – I suggest reading Peter Matthiesson’s -Lost Man’s River- while you’re out there. It can be a daunting hunk of book at times, but a good read while you’re in the midst of it all.

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Considering buying the We-no-nah Champlain 18′ canoe in Kevlar with a gelcoat.  I am a large fellow (#240) and was wondering what the performance of this boat would be.  Mainly planning on paddling the Everglades where you have to take your water with you also.  This will carry a large load according to the manufacturer, but was interested in comments. Anybody own one? Thanks, Frosty

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Sounds like a doable choice to me. I paddled around out there for about three weeks a couple Februaries ago and, although I don’t own a Chgamplain, a friend of mine does and I’ve done a couple overnighters with her in it (you know what I mean). I’ve found that the Champlain’s relatively low profile does well in the waves and wind and, if you’re planning on paddling at all on the outside down there, that’ll be most important. I gotta say that paddling solo in that wind might be quite a challenge. At 18′, even with a relatively low profile, you’ll get pushed around solo pretty good. The boat tracks very well, however, and if you really load it up, you’ll do as well as in any other. Are you gonna fish? I was almost afraid to, being a wimpy trout fisherman, the thought of a 35 pound tarpon on my fly rod was a bit intimidating. I know they do it on those fishing shows, but geez. Where are you going? I used Chokoloskee as a base and bumped around in the 10000 islands, stopping to get water every 6 days or so, of course there were two of us so solo you might not need to come out so often. If you haven’t been there before, make sure you reserve campsites with the rangers, try to get the chickees – lean-tos in the water, raised on stilts – ("land" sites are either mud pits or skeeter infested like you wouldn’t believe, worse than black flies in Quebec), and be careful about trying to stretch days – the campsites are relatively few and far between. Adios. Jealous. PS – I suggest reading Peter Matthiesson’s -Lost Man’s River- while you’re out there. It can be a daunting hunk of book at times, but a good read while you’re in the midst of it all. Considering buying the We-no-nah Champlain 18′ canoe in Kevlar with a gelcoat.  I am a large fellow (#240) and was wondering what the performance of this boat would be.  Mainly planning on paddling the Everglades where you have to take your water with you also.  This will carry a large load according to the manufacturer, but was interested in comments. Anybody own one? Thanks, Frosty

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Question:

Well, it’s homecoming weekend here in Happy Valley, and those Fightin’ Illini are coming to town to see if they can’t treat the Nittany Lions the same way they did the Iowa Hawkeyes last weekend.  God, I hope not. For all the talk a few weeks ago regarding this game, a potential Autumn mini-clave here in central PA, and a few flames about OT posts– there are no plans for any fishing to actually taking place.  This is really too bad, because the weather is going to be perfect.  Not too cold, the leaves are past their prime but still beautiful, and the days are still reasonably long.  However, I have no idea how to catch trout on a fly in this weather… Ken, I tried and tried to find tickets between the 20s but to no avail.  I would really have enjoyed meeting and doing some Sunday fishing with you.  As luck would have it, none of the half-dozen folks who I *know* have tickets were willing to part with them or had already given them to somebody else–it is homecoming after all, even if the Nittany Lions are having a down year.  Ironically, my Aunt called my wife from work just this afternoon with an offer of two tickets to tomorrows game…  I have no idea if they are between the 20s, or even within sight of the field–hell, with a capacity of nearly 100,000 the term ‘nosebleed seats’ takes on some signifigance at Beaver Stadium. I believe that there are still plans being made for a spring clave on Penns Creek here in central PA.  I look forward to meeting you, Ken, and lots of other ROFFians then.  Too bad it won’t be football season. We Are Penn State! Tom Before you buy.

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Well, it’s homecoming weekend here in Happy Valley, and those Fightin’ Illini are coming to town …

I’ll be watchin’ the game on ESPN2, your Nittany Lions are 3 point favorites according the official ROFF Latest Line and once again Wayno has managed to wheedle an unreal point spread for his Tar Heels. Eighteen and one half friggin’ points he gets against Clemson, it’s a gawdamn Chardonnay conspiracy I tell ya. I believe that there are still plans being made for a spring clave on Penns Creek here in central PA.  I look forward to meeting you, Ken, and lots of other ROFFians then.  Too bad it won’t be football season. We Are Penn State!

Likewise, Tom. Enjoy your weekend and don’t let a little thing like a homecoming loss spoil your fun. Oskee Wow Wow ! — Ken Fortenberry- sluggin’ Bud and hatin’ 11 a.m. kickoffs

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Question:

I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. Dustin

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Hang around for a while. Participate, argue, share ideas, get out on a limb, be an asshole, get huffy, find out you don’t know it all, etc.. The fairly normal way people get to know something of one another outside of family. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. Dustin

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I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. Dustin

        because roff is darwinian. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. Dustin         because roff is darwinian. wayno

______  Roffians are all psychologists who have wives that can’t keep secrets?

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        because roff is darwinian. wayno

actually wayno… it’s dahlwhinnian –waldo — Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious.

It’s just a matter of time.   There are quite a few "regulars" who post here frequently.   After reading a few thousand posts, you get a pretty good feel for who is intelligent, cultured, experienced, helpful or otherwise.   In reading the discussions, you’ll see who puts forth substantial, well-reasoned arguments and who is just a rectum.   Throughout the course of these exchanges over a wide variety of topics, you also pick up some personal information such as where we live, who is married, what we like to eat (and drink, especially drink), and what we drive.   A while back, there was even a "Who Am I" thread where many ng members abandoned their cyber anonymity and offered a short bio. The friendships (and disagreements) which have grown here at our individual keyboards also led to a ROFF conclave in May of this year where many heretofore unaquainted ROFFians actually met on the streams of North Carolina for a week of fishing, drinking, male bonding, and a few other things I’m not sure about.   Those fortunate few who attended now have faces to match the screen names and forged new friendships and respect.   (I regret I was not among them.) There’s a fine bunch of fellows here; and even if I don’t know what they look like, I’d be pleased to wet a line or quench my thirst with any of ‘em. Joe Fleischman Bel Air, MD (See, you learned something about me.)

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I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. It’s just a matter of time.   There are quite a few "regulars" who post here frequently.   After reading a few thousand posts, you get a pretty good

feel     (meaningful response snipped) Joe Fleischman Bel Air, MD (See, you learned something about me.)

    i didn’t know you were a doctor from los angeles! wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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   i didn’t know you were a doctor from los angeles!

LOL.   For a while, I was often mistaken for a TV doctor in Alaska. Joe

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Or you could go to the clave and meet face to face. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hang around for a while. Participate, argue, share ideas, get out on a limb, be an asshole, get huffy, find out you don’t know it all, etc.. The fairly normal way people get to know something of one another outside of family. Dave I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. Dustin

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We have the same interest. Fly Fishing and Fly Tying. Thus , we know each other. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. Dustin

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yea, Big Dale, but what about the parties you get to and the controlled substances that keep coming your way.  There is an upside, you know.  Except, of course, at the Almond Boat Dock, where it’s your soul they want to save. Mark Faulkner

Mark, We all missed you at the wed, thur, and fri eve prayer meetins’. Heard tell you were at that house of sin, that den of depravity, that fuliginous pavillion on the isthmus of time, little waynos   waldo It could be worse Joe…I am still mistaken for Jerry Garcia, which realy bothers me because I thought he was STILL DEAD!!!!! Big Dale

– Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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Big Dale stroked. "It could be worse Joe…I am still mistaken for Jerry Garcia" Long silence. Fire on the mountain. I’ll keep that in my head today as the Western Slope is ablaze and the USFS helicopters fill the air. No doubt of some powerful orange sunsets this evening. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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substances that keep coming your way.  

Sorry to disappoint you Mark,but I gave up the controlled substances over 25 years ago. I was always more into the wacky weed way back in my hippie days. I still enjoy the parties, but depend mostly on import beers, single malts, and sucking on a big bottle of gin.  On another subject it seems to me that the guy that got out of rehab and took up flyfishing and fly tying and reported that it was only slightly more expensive than drugs was still extremely naive. Big Dale

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We have the same interest. Fly Fishing and Fly Tying. Thus , we know each other. Paul

        ok, asadi, that "paul" disguise don’t fool ol’ wayno… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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yea, Big Dale, but what about the parties you get to and the controlled substances that keep coming your way.  There is an upside, you know.  Except, of course, at the Almond Boat Dock, where it’s your soul they want to save. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It could be worse Joe…I am still mistaken for Jerry Garcia, which realy bothers me because I thought he was STILL DEAD!!!!! Big Dale

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It could be worse Joe…I am still mistaken for Jerry Garcia, which realy bothers me because I thought he was STILL DEAD!!!!! Big Dale

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Question:

I was in Orlando on business a couple of months ago. I looked in the Yellow Pages for fishing guides and was just overwhelmed. There were so many that I just couldn’t pick one. Orlando is such a tourist trap that I felt my chances of picking a loser at random were too great. My only other trip to Orlando was about 45 years ago when I was a child. I recall it as a sleepy little place, but it’s sure changed, and much for the worse. If there’s anything in Orlando that isn’t a Disney-like fake I never found it. Their convention center is so big you’d better take a bicycle or roller skates. What’s happened to much of Florida is sad. Do we really need umpteen billion people on the planet? All the good places are being trashed, one after the other. Pretty soon you’ll have to be a billionare to enjoy anything decent. Rant mode off. — something bogus to avoid spam)

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Florida has many sites on the net.  Check out Florida in the Unitred States section at http://www.davisbrown.com/ffgeo.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to Orlando, Florida the 30 of January and I am going to stay there for 6 weeks. I am considering to bring my flyrod, if the flyfishing are good. I’m also looking for a good flyshop with a wide range. If you can help me, I would appreciate it. Tight lines. Jon Arne

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Stick with the Fly Fisherman.  That is unless your in the market for expensive clothing, then by all means Downeast. Regards, David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By all means bring the rods, there are some great places to FF within an hour or two of orlando.Both fresh and saltwater.Try these: The Fly Fisherman Inc. 1213 N. Orange Avenue Orlando, FL 32804 (407) 898 1989 and Downeast 538 Park Avenue South Orlando-Winter Park, FL 32789 (407) 645 5100 — Bragging may not bring happiness, but no man having caught a large fish, goes home through the alley. Anonymous http://fish-n-net.com/

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I am going to Orlando, Florida the 30 of January and I am going to stay there for 6 weeks. I am considering to bring my flyrod, if the flyfishing are good. I’m also looking for a good flyshop with a wide range. If you can help me, I would appreciate it. Tight lines. Jon Arne

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By all means bring the rods, there are some great places to FF within an hour or two of orlando.Both fresh and saltwater.Try these: The Fly Fisherman Inc. 1213 N. Orange Avenue Orlando, FL 32804 (407) 898 1989 and Downeast 538 Park Avenue South Orlando-Winter Park, FL 32789 (407) 645 5100 — Bragging may not bring happiness, but no man having caught a large fish, goes home through the alley. Anonymous http://fish-n-net.com/

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I am going to Orlando, Florida the 30 of January and I am going to stay there for 6 weeks. I am considering to bring my flyrod, if the flyfishing are good. I’m also looking for a good flyshop with a wide range. If you can help me, I would appreciate it. Tight lines. Jon Arne

   !’st off, the Orlando area is comprised of other towns nestled together. Being north of Orlando proper 2 shops come to mind, an Orvis (small shop) in Winter Park, there is a larger shop just north of the junction of 434 and 17/92 and I also believe there is a shop in one of the Disney villages. Have no idea from your post as to the type fishing you are interested in. From Orlando you have the choice of the space coast flats on the east coast to bass and panfish in the St.Johns to the north to the Gulf coast to the west. Orlando also has an extensive group of lakes in it’s area ranging from small 1 acre to 20 or more acres, lake info is available from the Fl. game and fish commision on thier site under the heading "fish orlando". Also lake Okachoby (headwaters of the glades(biiiig bass) isn’t all that far. That time span is rather early in the season for fresh but you never know. Good luck.                                                            John Popp                                                         in Sanford Fl.

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Question:

Well, I’m taking a break from putting up gear and getting caught up at work and thought I would give a quick run down on the trip.

Great trip report Larry thanks! BWCA has been on our "wish list" since college days eons ago….We are going to get there someday!!! sheila

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BTW, let me recommend a couple peices of gear to you. The Outback Oven, we made Pizzas,biscuits, brownies etc. in these ovens all week. They are light and See, some of us Whitewater boaters do paddle flat water once in awhile. Although this was the first time I had paddled an aluminum canoe in 15 years. SYOTR or Lake Larry

        Great trip report Larry.I can still remember the first time I used an outback oven.It was on Isle Royale in a rather remote campsite.We told the hikers in the camp next to us to hold off on their dinner of dehydrated food because we were going to share our pizza when we cooked.Needless to say they thought we were kidding them.The look on their faces when we pulled out our food and started tossing dough was priceless.Now it’s a regular part of my camp kitchen.         Bill Oehl

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<clip BWCA trip report See, some of us Whitewater boaters do paddle flat water once in awhile. Although this was the first time I had paddled an aluminum canoe in 15 years. SYOTR or Lake Larry

I love the Boundary Waters to.  (Quetico where you where)  I have made 8 tripe ranging from 10 – 20 days up there.  Every time has been great.  My last time I pawned my gear off on some friends in big touring canoes and took my WW K1.   I don’t remember the names but Lac la Croix has several very fun rapids and waterfalls.    One was a pretty large (30+ feet) drop with a lot of water going over from one lake into La Croix.  Not long after it on the right are two more rapids (Bottle ?)    If I am remembering the name correctly Bottle was not a waterfall but was a very heinous narrow rapid of at least 150 yards.  About 15 feet wide and as fast a rapid as I have seen.  I wish I remembered the names……   I guess that is an excuse to go pull out the old maps and pictures. Glad you had fun! Scott Bristow

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Great trip report Larry thanks! BWCA has been on our "wish list" since college days eons ago….We are going to get there someday!!! Give it a try! And don’t let kids stop you. This is my second trip with children and every one had a great time.

It’s not the kids! Its the 36 hour drive with Pete only having 2 weeks of leave a year….of course I could leave him home! He is gotten quite good about supporting my outdoors habits……being an at home homeschooling mom definately has its advantages when it comes to traveling! btw your kid tripping tips are great…..we have used a similar strategies when canoe tripping with our gang…. sheila

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Great trip report Larry thanks! BWCA has been on our "wish list" since college days eons ago….We are going to get there someday!!!

Give it a try! And don’t let kids stop you. This is my second trip with children and every one had a great time. A couple of tips for going with kids. Plan your route through smaller lakes with more frequent portages or allow for stops and side hikes along the bigger lakes. The kids didn’t mind portaging (I made mine carry their personal gear , including sleeping bags, as young as eight), but easily get bored on extented paddles in the lakes. There isn’t such a thing as kids portions in the Woods. Plan on full adult meals, take plenty of snacks(jerky and trail mixes are good, so is hard candy) and add 25% for pre teen boys! And take quick drying cloths. Larry

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Great trip report Larry.I can still remember the first time I used an outback oven.It was on Isle Royale in a rather remote campsite.We told the hikers in the camp next to us to hold off on their dinner of dehydrated food because we were going to share our pizza when we cooked.Needless to say they thought we were kidding them.The look on their faces when we pulled out our food and started tossing dough was priceless.Now it’s a regular part of my camp kitchen.    Bill Oehl </PRE</HTML

We took regular pizza mixes (Chef Boyardee) and dried the sauce on a fruit rollup sheet on the food dryer. We had already dried ground beef, peppers, onions and mushrooms. Add a little pepperoni and dried cheese and you have Pizza Supreme in the Wilderness. Soak all your dried stuff before you use it (it will be ready by the time you prepare everything else.).One package will make enough for 4 to 5 pizzas in the Ovens, according to how thick you like your crust. Larry

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Writes: I love the Boundary Waters to.  (Quetico where you where)  I have made 8 tripe ranging from 10 – 20 days up there.  Every time has been great.

While we entered from Quentico, the trip was an the American side of Lac la Croix.It was my first trip an the BWCA side, I think I like the campsites better than most in Quentico. My last time I pawned my gear off on some friends in big touring canoes and took my WW K1.   I don’t remember the names but Lac la Croix has several very fun rapids and waterfalls. One was a pretty large (30+ feet) drop with a lot of water going over from one lake into La Croix.  Not long after

It’s been a very low water year in the area, I didn’t really see anything that had enough water to scape down in my kayak, let alone a 18.5′ alumimun lake canoe! Didn’t get to some of the big entry rivers, though. I would like to try a touring kayak on some of large lakes. Less effected by wind and waves and definely faster and easier to paddle. Well, maybe next trip. SYOTR Larry

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Well, I’m taking a break from putting up gear and getting caught up at work

and thought I would give a quick run down on the trip. Larry, Great rundown of your Lac La Croix trip! After months of planning, getting permits, and arranging shuttles and a boat (for me, I don’t trip enough to justify buying a tripping canoe), then a couple of weeks drying and repackaging food, planning menus, packing, then repacking and packing again to get everything for three people into packs that would fit into a  18.5′ canoe, my family and I took off after work, meeting my friend Darrell on the road in Indiana on the way to Crane Lake, Minnesota, USA. We had decided to drive straight though, a 1100 mile run for me( please kick me in the head if I decide to do that again). Well, after 20 hours on the road, we arrived at Crane Lake. We quickly loaded onto the shuttle boat and off again. After a quick stop at Canadian Customs, we unloaded and loaded onto a ancient school bus for the ride across Dawson Portage. Did you ever try to get 17′ tripping canoes in a bus? I’m not sure that it wouldn’t have been quicker to walk, the bus had to go that slow.

Our thoughts exactly when we went the same route a couple of years ago. We loaded onto another boat and headed to the Zup’s Fish Camp to pick up our permits. We had decided to take advantage of the fact that the Ontario side allowed motors and have them shuttle us down the lake before crossing back into Boundary Waters. Back into the boat and down to the far end of Lac la Croix.

I still maintain the motor restrictions on the U.S. side are ridiculous! Crossing that big of water in a canoe would take forever.  Most people opt to motor the Canadian side and paddle into the smaller lakes for their trips. Did you get the driver of the boat to swing by the Indian pictographs?  They are awesome! I grew up with the Zup family in Ely, MN.  Their family story is quite incredible, having fought the inclusion of their property on Crooked Lake as part of the Boundary Waters in the ’50s and ’60s.  They lost their fight, and that is why they moved their fishing camp to Canada. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lac la Croix is one of the larger border lakes in the BWCA. It’s about 30 miles  from one end to the other , with hundreds of miles of shoreline, bays and islands to explore and fish. After a couple of hours paddling, we decided to establish a  base camp at the head of Lady Boot Bay and then day trip out of there. I had been reluctant to try BWCA because of the requirement to use designated camp sites. I had always felt that this would take away the wilderness feel of the area. I found that I liked the sites, they are well chosen, clean and maintained. The pit latrines were well hidden and the female members of our party thought they were great. In many ways, the sites were in better condition than most of the camp sites I found in Quetico. Snip Tuesday started the changing weather. High winds kept us wind bound all day. Rested up and explored around the Camp. For the rest of the trip, the weather would be clear and 80 F one minute and raining and cold the next. Typical Laurentian Shield weather( they tell me they have nice weather for weeks at a time up here, but I think they just tell that to the tourist.)

Welcome to Minnesota!  One thing is for sure, if you don’t like the weather, wait a day.  You should try our winters!  A couple years ago we had -60 degrrees one Saturday, and one week later it was 40 degrees above zero, with rain! Snip Thursday had the same weather pattern, one minute nice, the next nasty. The rain and the wind picked up around noon. We decided that we had better head for camp, which envolved crossing a fairly large open water section. About 1/3 the way across, the wind picked up and it started to rain in sheets. It quickly producted a 2′ chop with the wind gusty up to 40 mph. A real dicey crossing!! My soon to be teenager and budding Whiterwater Kayaker was having a great time.

The big lakes can get pretty rough at times.  Luckily you had a good experience.  My daughter works at a local resort.  Recently she had a guest ask if there were any water parks close by.  I told her if she is ever asked that again to say ‘Yes, it’s called the Boundary Waters – nature’s water park!’ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He thought this was big time fun ( he still thinks I’m a paddling God, and nothing will happen if I’m in the boat.). We all made it across safely and sit down for some hot coffee liberally braced with Brandy. Since the weather was so changable, decided to stay in camp and make Pizzas in our camp ovens. After 2 hours of cooking Pizzas, everyone had had enough and we settled back to watch the gulls eating the remains of our days catch. The Gulls had spotted were we left the remains of the fish we filletted soon after we arrived. They would fly by every couple of hours to see if we had left dinner yet. On Weds, a couple of Bald Eagles showed up, checking out what the Gulls were doing in the area. On this day, the gulls were very aggressive and attacked one of the eagles and run him off. Thursday, the Eagle didn’t run. The Gulls ignored him until he took off and made a low pass over the bay. You should have seen the Gulls take off!! The next pass, the Eagle flew low over the rocks and snagged the remains of a large Pike on the fly. This was all happening about 30 yards from where we were sitting!! It was better that National Geographic!!

Watching the gulls, bald eagles and ravens can be a real treat! Friday we packed up and paddled back to the Canadian side to be picked up by our shuttle. A quick shower and a great dinner at Zup’s and then back to Crane Lake on Saturday.

We were totally amazed with the wonderful meals prepared at Zup’s fishing camp.  As good as any fine restaurant. For a totally different experience, try Crane Lake in the winter.  We have stayed at one of the resorts on Crane Lake and snowmobiled all over Voyageurs National Park.  Absolutely fantastic!  Lunch at Kettle Falls Hotel, where you can look south and see Canada!  We already have our reservations for next February!  Can hardly wait! Nan

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I still maintain the motor restrictions on the U.S. side are ridiculous! Crossing that big of water in a canoe would take forever.  Most people opt to motor the Canadian side and paddle into the smaller lakes for their trips

True, it is a big lake. but the American side is cut up with islands, peninsulas and bays that offer fairly protected paddling. The no motor restriction is fairly often violated in the passage south of Coleman Island anyway. It would be a great place for a ocean touring kayak. Did you get the driver of the boat to swing by the Indian pictographs? They are awesome!

Yes, but my photo’s didn’t show it as well as you could see it there. Any suggestions? Welcome to Minnesota!  One thing is for sure, if you don’t like the weather, wait a day.  You should try our winters!  A couple years ago we had -60 degrrees one Saturday, and one week later it was 40 degrees above zero, with rain!

No thanks. I was born in the Dakota’s , Artic Hell on the High Plains, which is why I love the southeast USA. I can paddle all winter!! You all talk funny up there anyway :^). The big lakes can get pretty rough at times.  Luckily you had a good experience.  My daughter works at a local resort.  Recently she had a guest ask if there were any water parks close by.  I told her if she is ever asked that again to say ‘Yes, it’s called the Boundary Waters – nature’s water park!’

A calm trip compared to last trip. 6 out of  8 days with high winds, including 3 we should have stayed in camp. And it rained those 6 days too! We were totally amazed with the wonderful meals prepared at Zup’s fishing camp.  As good as any fine restaurant.

They do have a good cook. For a totally different experience, try Crane Lake in the winter.  We have stayed at one of the resorts on Crane Lake and snowmobiled all over Voyageurs National Park.  Absolutely fantastic!  Lunch at Kettle Falls Hotel, where you can look south and see Canada!

I still prefer my water in the liquid state. I did get the info when I was there, it does look interesting. SYOTR or Lake Larry

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Well, I’m taking a break from putting up gear and getting caught up at work and thought I would give a quick run down on the trip. After months of planning, getting permits, and arranging shuttles and a boat (for me, I don’t trip enough to justify buying a tripping canoe), then a couple of weeks drying and repackaging food, planning menus, packing, then repacking and packing again to get everything for three people into packs that would fit into a 18.5′ canoe, my family and I took off after work, meeting my friend Darrell on the road in Indiana on the way to Crane Lake, Minnesota, USA. We had decided to drive straight though, a 1100 mile run for me( please kick me in the head if I decide to do that again). Well, after 20 hours on the road, we arrived at Crane Lake. We quickly loaded onto the shuttle boat and off again. After a quick stop at Canadian Customs, we unloaded and loaded onto a ancient school bus for the ride across Dawson Portage. Did you ever try to get 17′ tripping canoes in a bus? I’m not sure that it wouldn’t have been quicker to walk, the bus had to go that slow. We loaded onto another boat and headed to the Zup’s Fish Camp to pick up our permits. We had decided to take advantage of the fact that the Ontario side allowed motors and have them shuttle us down the lake before crossing back into Boundary Waters. Back into the boat and down to the far end of Lac la Croix. Lac la Croix is one of the larger border lakes in the BWCA. It’s about 30 miles from one end to the other , with hundreds of miles of shoreline, bays and islands to explore and fish. After a couple of hours paddling, we decided to establish a base camp at the head of Lady Boot Bay and then day trip out of there. I had been reluctant to try BWCA because of the requirement to use designated camp sites. I had always felt that this would take away the wilderness feel of the area. I found that I liked the sites, they are well chosen, clean and maintained. The pit latrines were well hidden and the female members of our party thought they were great. In many ways, the sites were in better condition than most of the camp sites I found in Quetico. After setting up camp, I went out on the point and soon caught the first of many Northern Pike. I hadn’t fished for Pike in a few years,managed to let him bit my fingers with his needle sharp teeth. That consigned him to the grill that evening. Sunday, our first full day, we spent fishing and exploring the bays along Coleman Island. My wife, Jean lost a big Pike and my son Nathan landed one 28" long, his first Northern. The winds picked up in the afternoon, so we made a run back to camp. A big supper and more fish on the fire. If you have never tried Pike fillets wrapped in foil and cooked over a fire with butter and lemon pepper, you have missed one of lifes true pleasures. Monday, Darrell and I slipped off to do a little exploring and fishing on our own. Caught a few fish, paddled around a bit on the Mainland side of the bay before heading back. Tuesday started the changing weather. High winds kept us wind bound all day. Rested up and explored around the Camp. For the rest of the trip, the weather would be clear and 80 F one minute and raining and cold the next. Typical Laurentian Shield weather( they tell me they have nice weather for weeks at a time up here, but I think they just tell that to the tourist.). Weds the weather let up enough for a day trip into a couple of surrounding lakes that envolved a couple of short portages. I had hoped to see a Moose, but when your paddling with a 10, 11, and 12 year old, that sucker would have to have been deaf not to hear us coming. Oh well. My wife caught her first Pike! I almost fell over laughing watching her land it! The weather went to Hell at lunch, so we made a dash back to the Camp. Thursday had the same weather pattern, one minute nice, the next nasty. The rain and the wind picked up around noon. We decided that we had better head for camp, which envolved crossing a fairly large open water section. About 1/3 the way across, the wind picked up and it started to rain in sheets. It quickly producted a 2′ chop with the wind gusty up to 40 mph. A real dicey crossing!! My soon to be teenager and budding Whiterwater Kayaker was having a great time. He thought this was big time fun ( he still thinks I’m a paddling God, and nothing will happen if I’m in the boat.). We all made it across safely and sit down for some hot coffee liberally braced with Brandy. Since the weather was so changable, decided to stay in camp and make Pizzas in our camp ovens. After 2 hours of cooking Pizzas, everyone had had enough and we settled back to watch the gulls eating the remains of our days catch. The Gulls had spotted were we left the remains of the fish we filletted soon after we arrived. They would fly by every couple of hours to see if we had left dinner yet. On Weds, a couple of Bald Eagles showed up, checking out what the Gulls were doing in the area. On this day, the gulls were very aggressive and attacked one of the eagles and run him off. Thursday, the Eagle didn’t run. The Gulls ignored him until he took off and made a low pass over the bay. You should have seen the Gulls take off!! The next pass, the Eagle flew low over the rocks and snagged the remains of a large Pike on the fly. This was all happening about 30 yards from where we were sitting!! It was better that National Geographic!! Friday we packed up and paddled back to the Canadian side to be picked up by our shuttle. A quick shower and a great dinner at Zup’s and then back to Crane Lake on Saturday. BTW, let me recommend a couple peices of gear to you. The Outback Oven, we made Pizzas,biscuits, brownies etc. in these ovens all week. They are light and compact. Zip off leg supplex pants, they dry quick and they were by far the favorite. We had several different brands, liked them all. Well suited for the rapid changing weather on the Canadian Shield. See, some of us Whitewater boaters do paddle flat water once in awhile. Although this was the first time I had paddled an aluminum canoe in 15 years. SYOTR or Lake Larry  

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Hello all,

[much snipped] Years ago I read, "Smoke is only smoke to me, now that I am old."  So, Fishing is fishing.  Like the Water Rat said in The Wind in the Willows: Come along over some time.  We’ll drop down to the river and make a day of it. Jess Thompson

Jesse Debate is healthy and often fun, providing it doesn’t degenerate into the slinging about of low grade insults.  I wouldn’t sweat it too much.  Fishing is about fun, especially shared fun.  Hopefully, some of that fun gets shared in ROFF too.  But I’ve noticed that it’s the contentious issues that get all the ink.  I post a couple of flyfishing stories and they’re barely noticed, but my whining about rod prices generated about 200 repsonses when you count in the derivatives.  I guess it’s just human nature.   Anyway. I had a great year of fishing, and I hope everyone else that reads this ng, did too.  Hopefully, in the new year, we’ll catch that big brown that spurned all our offerings last summer. Peter

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Well Peter, perhaps you whine better than you write. Just kidding, I enjoyed your stories. — Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison <snip I’ve noticed that it’s the contentious issues that get all the ink.  I

post a couple of flyfishing stories and  they’re barely noticed, but my whining about rod prices generated about 200 repsonses when you count in the derivatives.  I guess it’s just human nature.   <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter

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Hello all, Please believe that I stumbled quite innocently into the fracus of C & E versus C & R.  And quite tardily.  Believe me also when I say that though I am old, I am not to old to learn, and to re-learn.  I should retract the statement  that I "slanted {the article Catch and Eat} purposely to arouse debate."   Talking over the pros and cons of a question, in a friendly fashion, I enjoy, but not dispute and name-calling.   It’s more correct to say that I wrote it rather, partly, in defense of those who received venomous messages for their positions.  And, because I had seen at times, on TV, what appeared to be careless C & R; and, because I think it’s okay to eat a fish now and then.  And surely, in the heat of reaction, I got a bit carried away.  If I had let the article cool longer, I would have toned down some of the more inflammatory passages.   The kind of fishing that’s done, C & E, C & R, fly, spoon, plug, bait–it all depends on who when what where and why.  The conditions, the fishing pressure, the fish populations, the locale. . . . But no matter what, we all like to fish; we all want to protect fish and fishing.   Mark Kelly, Steve Dsrt Traveler, Peter Charles, Moe, Ralph, Ernie, others (I don’t have all the names in front of me) have made good points–but it comes down to what Mark said–we all like to fish, we ought all,  finally, to support each other, and that’s exactly what I want to come back to. I’ve eaten  fish, I’ve  released fish, I’ve caught ‘em through the long years on worms, eggs, spoons, plugs, flies, treble hooks, barbless hooks, tiny hooks, big hooks, wild fish, hatchery fish, in pretty places, mucky places, and all of it,  any of it, well, "if it ain’t fun" I don’t know what is.  And the older you get, the more pleasant the memories of it all are.  Like all of us, I just wish we could all do more of it.   It’s fun if you catch fish or don’t catch fish, fun to watch others fish, to watch others catch fish.  I think it was Mark who fetched me up, properly, to remember that if we fight among ourselves, we don’t do the fishing world any good at all, but rather harm.   So I don’t want to rub sores, nor much care any more to wander off into the realms of mythology or animalism or primitivism or anthropology or philosophy. . .fishin’ is fishin’.   When we come down to earth, we know that.  In our better selves, we all know it:   Fishin’ is fishin’.   Exactly that. Years ago I read, "Smoke is only smoke to me, now that I am old."  So, Fishing is fishing.  Like the Water Rat said in The Wind in the Willows: Come along over some time.  We’ll drop down to the river and make a day of it. Jess Thompson

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Hello all, Please believe that I stumbled quite innocently into the fracus of C & E versus C & R.  And quite tardily.  Believe me also when I say that though I am old, I am not to old to learn, and to re-learn.  I should retract the statement  that I "slanted {the article Catch and Eat} purposely to arouse debate."   Talking over the pros and cons of a question, in a friendly fashion, I enjoy, but not dispute and name-calling.

Well Jess, that whole subject is something of a sore spot around here. You can’t even mention it without starting a huge rucus. It’s more correct to say that I wrote it rather, partly, in defense of those who received venomous messages for their positions.  And, because I had seen at times, on TV, what appeared to be careless C & R; and, because I think it’s okay to eat a fish now and then.  And surely, in the heat of reaction, I got a bit carried away.  If I had let the article cool longer, I would have toned down some of the more inflammatory passages.

Ah!  Not to worry. <snip So I don’t want to rub sores, nor much care any more to wander off into the realms of mythology or animalism or primitivism or anthropology or philosophy. . .fishin’ is fishin’.   When we come down to earth, we know that.  In our better selves, we all know it:   Fishin’ is fishin’. Exactly that.

I agree whole-heartedly.  I seems though, that there is a rather curious factor involved.  It seems that FFing is taking on a religious quality complete with orthodoxy, traditions, dogma, and theology.  It schmecks of fundamentalism with the "our way or no way" attitude you see on our trout streams.  A blinkered ideology that leaves little or no room for ideas outside strict adherance to the status quo. But you sir are right.  Fishin’ is Fishin’.  No more no less.  I can’t save the world, hell it won’t even save the rivers.  Better to enjoy it for what it is, rather than what we may want it to be. Years ago I read, "Smoke is only smoke to me, now that I am old."  So, Fishing is fishing.  Like the Water Rat said in The Wind in the Willows: Come along over some time.  We’ll drop down to the river and make a day of it. Jess Thompson

Well said sir. </c — </chaz Chaz Clover The Paved Earth Society http://www.rmi.net/~clover/pave_the_earth   "Why Not Just Get On With It?"

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Question:

Does anyone know of any fishing news groups?  I am especially interested in Flyfishing. Thanks. Randy

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Does anyone know of any fishing news groups?  I am especially interested in Flyfishing. Thanks. Randy

I don’t but email: for any fishing info you’d like. Leo UCD – Engineering                                   (303) 556-2356 "I’m only responsible for what’s not working right now." DoD# 0874

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Does anyone know of any fishing news groups?  I am especially interested in Flyfishing.

try rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Tim —

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Question:

   I drove down to the Rapidan River today for the first time since the early summer flood to see firsthand what kind of shape it is in.    I followed my standard route to the upper sections of the river:      - Rt. 29 south from I-66      - Rt. 231 north at Madison      - Rt. 670 (left) at Banco (road follows Robinson River)      - Rt. 649 (left) just past Criglersville (follows Quaker Run)      - follow Rt. 649 past where pavement ends, up and over        Chapman Mountain, down to the Rapidan about 1.5 mi.        above where Staunton Run joins the Rapidan    First, the Robinson River, being wide and channelized already, didn’t seem to sustain any flood damage worth mentioning.    Rt. 649, along Quaker Run, obviously sustained a lot of damage; entire sections of previously paved road were recently replaced with gravel…homes along Quaker Run suffered damage to property but most had already recovered (re-grading, re-seeding, etc.)  No problem getting up Rt. 649, however.    The unpaved section of Rt. 649 that runs up and over the mountain is now in _better_ shape than before the flood, thanks to a recent re-grading.  From the point (at the top of Chapman Mountain) where 649 enters Shenandoah National Park, the road is not only re-graded but evenly covered with gravel.  Driving over it was a breeze (no more washboard corrugations).    At the intersection of the road that parallels the Rapidan (Rt. 662) and Rt. 649 (where the big pool and parking area is), Rt. 662 (that follows the river) has been closed to vehicular traffic my a massive pile of dirt that a HUM-V couldn’t even get over.    Happily, the Rapidan River upstream of the confluence with Staunton Run (I didn’t look below that point) shows virtually NO signs of flood-related damage.  The river bed (consisting of bedrock and car-sized boulders) is totally intact, and pretty much looks the same as it always has.    The only signs of a flood are occasional cobble/gravel bars at the tail end of pools where previously they were smaller or non-existent; also I spotted a few places where a huge torrent had obviously raged down the mountainside into the Rapidan, evident by the gravel washes and clutter of dead trees piled up next to the river.    The Rapidan inside Shenandoah National Park is now open for fishing. "Closed to Fishing" signs have been removed.  I saw two people flyfishing, both of whom confirmed that yes, there are still plenty of brookies left in the Rapidan.  Each had caught a few in the 6-8" range and reported seeing others, some larger.    Small pools were full of minnows (I couldn’t identify them) and insects were abundant.  So it looks like the Brook Trout just hunkered down during the flood, just as they have done for millenia.  Their numbers may be less than before the flood, but they’re still there, and I plan to get back there for some fishing soon!    — Scott Wilkinson        Washington, DC

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GREAT news about the Rapidan! #                         |  "But someday, man, someday…when you are     # #                         |   outta here, and you’ve forgotten about this  # #                         |   place, and they’ve forgotten about you, and  # #     Paul Graham         |   you’re wrapped up in your own pathetic life  # #                         |   I’m going to kick the livin’ shit outta you  # #                         |   man…I’m going to knock your dick in the    # #                         |   dirt!" – From "The Breakfast Club"           #

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Question:

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Hey, how ’bout some content in this post? You sparked my interest!

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Hey, how ’bout some content in this post? You sparked my interest!

This item sparked my interest too, so I’ll start.   I recently tried a new product for saltwater tying.  It’s colored hot glue (pink, orange, amber, green and many others available) for tying Mother of Epoxy (Glue) type bonefish and permit flies.  It is really easy to use this stuff.  Just add bead chain eyes to a saltwater hook.  Drop on a wad of hot glue, dip in water for 3-5 seconds, and it’s cool enough to mold with your hands.  If you don’t like the way the head turned out, you can dip it in very hot water and remold.   This colored hot glue is available at the craft store for aboout a tenth of the price of the fly shop (as are doll eyes and lots of other good stuff for saltwater flies). I recently went to Belize and a hot glue fly (regular tan glue) with a tuft of tan bucktail was red hot for bonefish. John Woodling Sacramento, CA

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Hey John , great post last month’s saltwater fly mag had a guy making these molds and cranking out some gorgeous deceivers…. 1. did you use a mold yourself? 2. Can you share the Namebrand and bottle size of the    stuff you are using? 3. what size hooks are you using 1/0-3/0?? 4. what do you use for Sacramento stripers? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -thanks?

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last month’s saltwater fly mag had a guy making these molds and cranking out some gorgeous deceivers…. 1. did you use a mold yourself?

That’s the beauty of hot glue, you don’t need a mold, you just mold it with your fingers.   For deceiver heads, I use epoxy.  It dries a lot clearer and harder.  You don’t need a mold, but you do need a slow rpm motor to turn these after you apply the epoxy (5 minutes) until it hardens. 2. Can you share the Namebrand and bottle size of the

   stuff you are using? I don’t recall the brand name, but they are standard size glue sticks. The fly shop also has a glue gun, and like everything else in a fly shop, it costs twice what the same thing costs in the hardware store. 3. what size hooks are you using 1/0-3/0??

For mother of glue flies for bonefish I use 4’s and 6’s 4. what do you use for Sacramento stripers?

I haven’t fished for them, but a lot of the Dan Blanton patterns are probably good. <<   John K. Woodling   < Sacramento, CA

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writes: 4. what do you use for Sacramento stripers? I haven’t fished for them, but a lot of the Dan Blanton patterns are probably good. <<   John K. Woodling   <

I’v had good luck with chartreuse patterns for clear water (like surf or fast moving tidal rivers) and yellow patterns for muddy water (like back bays). I noticed that blue and white also works in either environment, but I was using clousers, not deceivers. HighHooks-n-TightLines,       Jose

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Quoting jwoodling1 from a message in rec.outdoors.fishing.fly     2. Can you share the Namebrand and bottle size of the     stuff you are using?     I don’t recall the brand name, but they are standard size glue sticks.     The fly shop also has a glue gun, and like everything else in a fly    shop, it costs twice what the same thing costs in the hardware store. This sounded like a great idea so I stopped by the arts & crafts store on the way home.  I picked up a low temp glue gun for $3.29 and a pack of 49 glue sticks in a variety of colors for $4.49.  Will give it a try this weekend. Jim in Southern California

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This sounded like a great idea so I stopped by the arts & crafts store on the way home.  I picked up a low temp glue gun for $3.29 and a pack of 49 glue sticks in a variety of colors for $4.49.  Will give it a try this weekend. Jim in Southern California

I wrote a short piece for American Angler back in 1986 or so, about using hot glue guns for fly tying. I still use them occasionally, for big flies (like some salt water flies). But there are drawbacks. The faster the hot glue hardens (higher melting temps) the stronger the glue is, and the harder it is to use, becuase the stuff sets up so fast. Low temperature glues are easier to work with, but the damn flies melt right in you fly box on a hot day. The only practicle solution is to use high temp glues, and learn how to work very fast.   Good hardware stores (the ones that cater to tradesmen) carry a variety of hot glue sticks, with faster and slower, hotter and cooler melting temperatures. Steer clear of "clear-colored" sticks. Clear hot glue sticks were developed for florists, for obvious reasons, but clear hot glue sticks have the lowest bonding strength. —

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: Quoting jwoodling1 from a message in rec.outdoors.fishing.fly :     2. Can you share the Namebrand and bottle size of the :     stuff you are using? :     I don’t recall the brand name, but they are standard size glue sticks. :     The fly shop also has a glue gun, and like everything else in a fly :    shop, it costs twice what the same thing costs in the hardware store. : This sounded like a great idea so I stopped by the arts & crafts store on the : way home.  I picked up a low temp glue gun for $3.29 and a pack of 49 glue : sticks in a variety of colors for $4.49.  Will give it a try this weekend. So did I.   Bryan : Jim in Southern California

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Question:

If your going to fish Crowley in a tube, it would be criminal not to fish the Green Banks area.  Although at times it seems that you could walk bank to bank on the ‘tubers without getting you feet wet, this is a hot area of the lake.  Since the access roads are all unmaked dirt roads, you need to get directions from one of the local sproting goods stores.  I can get there but I can’t tell you how to get there. I have fished this area effectively using a sink tip line with an olive damsel fly nymph and olive woolybuggers in late June and July.  A word of warning, when the wind kicks up get off the lake.  It can be brutal. Good Luck, Dctr Trout

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Where is Crowley Lake?

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Where is Crowley Lake?

Crowley Lake is in Mono County, California. It is about a ten minute drive from the Mammoth Lakes Resort area. If you find Reno, Nevada on the map, follow Hwy 395 South-East approximately 180 miles.

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Have you tried Tim Alper’s lunker pond yet?  His designer Rainbow’s are big.

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I am looking for some advice on fishing Crowley Lake from a float tube.   I have fished the surrounding area (Hot Creek, Mammoth Lakes, Rush Creek, etc.), but I have always hesitated to fish Crowley because I hear you need a float tube to fish it right.  Well, now I have the tube and would love to get some tips on catching the Browns and Rainbows that everyone rants and raves about. I am planning trips in the Spring, Summer, and Fall.  I know the Olive Matuka is a famous Crowley fly, but maybe there are others???  Also, I will be looking the ‘tote the tube’ to any promising lakes within a day hike. Thanks in advance for any help, Matt Riley

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I am looking for some advice on fishing Crowley Lake from a float tube…

I have tried tubing Crowley near the marina and also off of Benton Crossing Road.  Haven’t hooked any of the big trout but was pretty amazed at the thick soup of hatching bugs – no wonder the trout grow. One trip we hit into a school of Sacramento Perch.  Locals said they were the best eating fish of all; we were camping so we kept quite a few (no limit) and filleted them and fried them up in a beer/bisquick batter and I wholeheartedly agree. Delicious! Before we cooked them a trout purist friend of a friend was pouting because we hadn’t caught trout, said he didn’t want any, then later, OK well lemme try a little bit, then another and he ended up eating about ten of them himself. There are lots of other lakes worth tubing, up any of the roads that go west from 395 in the Bishop area.  Last year a writer to this list caught 6 and 10 lb. brown trout on dry flies at North lake. I think especially with all the water, this year should be good for the east side sierra lakes. I like this area as much for the scenery, and when the mountains still have snow on the it is best. mark Vinsel Visit my gallery: http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.HTML

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