Question:

Outstanding fishing around Glover’s Reef (Manta Resort only one there) – during the day schools of small bones hang around in the lagoons and assorted toothed guys on the open water- the coolest thing we did there was night fishing in the lagoon- nice tarpon come in about midnight and you spot fish them with a flashlight – their eyes glow big time – they’ll hit casting plugs(mirror lures and rattle traps) and flat tear up big  popper flies – hell of a thing about 2am to have a drink in one hand be hooked up with a 4-6 ft tarpon on a 10-12wt in the other Gary

For a real challenge, try that with an 8 weight… /daytripper (Not sure if waving goodbye is all that fun, though

Response:

Outstanding fishing around Glover’s Reef (Manta Resort only one there) – during the day schools of small bones hang around in the lagoons and assorted toothed guys on the open water- the coolest thing we did there was night fishing in the lagoon- nice tarpon come in about midnight and you spot fish them with a flashlight – their eyes glow big time – they’ll hit casting plugs(mirror lures and rattle traps) and flat tear up big  popper flies – hell of a thing about 2am to have a drink in one hand be hooked up with a 4-6 ft tarpon on a 10-12wt in the other Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Except for fishermen, and in particular, light tackle anglers and fly fishermen as well as divers, Belize, once known as British Honduras is the forgotten part of Central America. It is located just south of Mexico’s Yucatan Peninsula, to the east of Guatemala and is the only English speaking country in the region.. It’s chief claim to fame is that it has the longest barrier reef in the western hemisphere, and second in the world only to Australia’s Great Barrier Reef. This, along with the fact that over ninety percent of its islands are uninhabitable makes it a light tackle anglers idea of heaven. From the super clear waters along the reef, through its myriad clusters of mangrove islands into its jungle rivers, it has something for everybody. Want variety? You can expect to catch two dozen different species of fish in a weeks time, from bonefish, permit and tarpon to wahoo, sailfish, grouper and snapper. Want to specialize? Get out your ten weight fly rod and try for the elusive permit, or stalk massive schools of bonefish. How about tarpon? Where do you prefer to pursue them? In slow moving jungle rivers with the howler monkeys screaming at you or on wide open flats with your guide slowly bringing you within casting range? Belize has it all. Winter is just around the corner, and if you feel the need to spend some time catching fish without thinking about how many layers of clothing you need, Belize is just the place for you. Check it out at www.tropicalfishing.com/Belize.htm or give Capt Gene Kelly at Tropical Fishing Adventures a call at 800 280 5565.

Response:

While I don’t doubt your point, I can only say that about the ones I’ve seen… /daytripper (And Belize was the worst by far…)

I wish I could say Belize was the worst I have seen. But then I didn’t spend much time on the mainland there, where conditions are much worse than where I was. — Charlie…

Response:

But don’t venture far from the "civilization" of the resort lest you stumble on the predominant gut-wrenching poverty… You can say that about a *lot* of resorts around the world.

While I don’t doubt your point, I can only say that about the ones I’ve seen… /daytripper (And Belize was the worst by far…)

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The last day when I left,  I gave them all the cash I could and still get home. It was one of the most emotional thing that has happened to me in my lifetime.

…now why am I not surprised that you would do that Bill? I always knew you wuz one of the good guys. Good on ya. Frank Church

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But don’t venture far from the "civilization" of the resort lest you stumble on the predominant gut-wrenching poverty… You can say that about a *lot* of resorts around the world. — Charlie…

Hmm . . . this was certainly true in Thailand.  Went there 6 times from 94-98. ( northern part of the country) (always stayed at the rear of the hotel where I stayed most. . . wanted it quieter)  Behind the hotel was a small field and a series of "small" wood buildings.  Some of the employees "lived" in these.   Would see them starting fires in the morning to cook breakfast and at night for dinner.  There was one shower for all the families, outside, with a cloth curtain. . . no hot water . . . and one outhouse.   These are the folks that did all aspects of the hotel functions. The owners live in suites at the top of the hotel. . . think they took a whole floor . . . or even two.  (quite a few fancy houses around the hotel from the other side of the economy,  with people catering to all resident needs) But with many of the hotel employees, and "most" other people I worked with in Thailand, they were selfless.  (I wasn’t at one of the higher end hotels) I got invited to a number of family events and functions of the less fortunate in terms of money.  I was overwhelmed by the generosity of them to share whatever they had to share.  Interesting reflection, at least to me, saving "face" is important over in that area of the world.  Even if I wanted to say something to an employee, I have to be careful about the presentation, and who was present.  (maybe we, in other parts of the world, can learn a bit from that concept) Neat thing to get into if you get a chance to work, and share experiences, with the people in the country you visit. (Naturally, not something that can generally happen with a whirlwind trip. . . nor something to consider . . . in some countries. . . but you can certainly develop friendships.) Most profound thing I’ve seen in my small part in world travel is absolute affluency and poverty right next to each other.  (Hmm. . . seem to have that part between me and my rich neighbors also . . . wonder if I can borrow a Sage rod or a cup of sugar or something?  . . . something to check out . . . and I think those are cute doggies . . . big teeth . . probably just smiling alot ) Thanks for helping me reflect on the international part. . . and my ramblings. BestWishes, DaveMohnsen Denver ( have a soft part in my heart for most of the Thailand folks. . .but there are always a few in the other category . . . but YMMV)

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Hi DT, You are very correct. I have fished from the tip of the MX Yucatan all the way to the end of Belize in about 20 trips and that is a very sad fact. Actually, the fishing guides are some of the most affluent people in the Caribbean. The smart ones buy property and build rentals that their wife runs while they guide tourists. Most of them actually just drink and smoke a lot more. I was on a small cay for a week out of Dangriga, Belize fishing at the Blue Horizon Lodge it’s first season. On the back side of the cay in the mangroves was a little shack and a little skinny family of  four and their skinny dog. They had an old boat that they were using to haul sacks of sand, coral and shells to backfill the new fishing camp for ~25 cents a sack. While we fished, they loaded sacks, stacked them on their old boat to almost sinking and brought them back to the camp where they poured them around the new cottages on stilts to bring up the new cleared land above sea level a bit. You can imagine the heat, humidity and bugs they endured, let along the idea of that hard of work. They were all very skinny and made me feel very sad. The last day when I left,  I gave them all the cash I could and still get home. It was one of the most emotional thing that has happened to me in my lifetime. This kind of life is common in many 3rd world countries. Be glad you and yours are here in America. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But don’t venture far from the "civilization" of the resort lest you stumble on the predominant gut-wrenching poverty…

Response:

But don’t venture far from the "civilization" of the resort lest you stumble on the predominant gut-wrenching poverty…

You can say that about a *lot* of resorts around the world. — Charlie…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Except for fishermen, and in particular, light tackle anglers and fly fishermen as well as divers, Belize, once known as British Honduras is the forgotten part of Central America. It is located just south of Mexico’s Yucatan Peninsula, to the east of Guatemala and is the only English speaking country in the region.. It’s chief claim to fame is that it has the longest barrier reef in the western hemisphere, and second in the world only to Australia’s Great Barrier Reef. This, along with the fact that over ninety percent of its islands are uninhabitable makes it a light tackle anglers idea of heaven. From the super clear waters along the reef, through its myriad clusters of mangrove islands into its jungle rivers, it has something for everybody. Want variety? You can expect to catch two dozen different species of fish in a weeks time, from bonefish, permit and tarpon to wahoo, sailfish, grouper and snapper. Want to specialize? Get out your ten weight fly rod and try for the elusive permit, or stalk massive schools of bonefish. How about tarpon? Where do you prefer to pursue them? In slow moving jungle rivers with the howler monkeys screaming at you or on wide open flats with your guide slowly bringing you within casting range? Belize has it all. Winter is just around the corner, and if you feel the need to spend some time catching fish without thinking about how many layers of clothing you need, Belize is just the place for you. Check it out at www.tropicalfishing.com/Belize.htm or give Capt Gene Kelly at Tropical Fishing Adventures a call at 800 280 5565.

But don’t venture far from the "civilization" of the resort lest you stumble on the predominant gut-wrenching poverty…

Response:

Except for fishermen, and in particular, light tackle anglers and fly fishermen as well as divers, Belize, once known as British Honduras is the forgotten part of Central America. It is located just south of Mexico’s Yucatan Peninsula, to the east of Guatemala and is the only English speaking country in the region.. It’s chief claim to fame is that it has the longest barrier reef in the western hemisphere, and second in the world only to Australia’s Great Barrier Reef. This, along with the fact that over ninety percent of its islands are uninhabitable makes it a light tackle anglers idea of heaven. From the super clear waters along the reef, through its myriad clusters of mangrove islands into its jungle rivers, it has something for everybody. Want variety? You can expect to catch two dozen different species of fish in a weeks time, from bonefish, permit and tarpon to wahoo, sailfish, grouper and snapper. Want to specialize? Get out your ten weight fly rod and try for the elusive permit, or stalk massive schools of bonefish. How about tarpon? Where do you prefer to pursue them? In slow moving jungle rivers with the howler monkeys screaming at you or on wide open flats with your guide slowly bringing you within casting range? Belize has it all. Winter is just around the corner, and if you feel the need to spend some time catching fish without thinking about how many layers of clothing you need, Belize is just the place for you. Check it out at www.tropicalfishing.com/Belize.htm or give Capt Gene Kelly at Tropical Fishing Adventures a call at 800 280 5565.

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Question:

OK, this is old, but it looks like it’s expired, so I’m going to post it here again.  40 of the 47 Page-A-Day calendars are ready for download. They never could get the 4 puzzle calendars [Bridge, Mensa, Scrabble, Chess] and the 2 web calendars [Fly Fishing, Audubon Birds] to work, so those 6 have been scrapped.  The 365 NEW WORDS A DAY works, but has a weird little problem with the pronunciation font.  They’re working on it, but I’m not going to post another update when that’s fixed. So, that leaves 40 good working calendars, and if you really don’t care about the pronunciation font, you can count it as 41.  Here’s where you can find them: http://www.page-a-day.com/downloads.html If you’re looking for a ZODIAC sign calendar, and #freeasd’ers have occasionally heard me read from them, you can find them at [for example] http://www.page-a-day.com/beta/hari.exe http://www.page-a-day.com/beta/htau.exe http://www.page-a-day.com/beta/hcan.exe I think you can see the pattern.  For a MAC version, replace the .exe with .hqx and download that instead. Each download calendar is about 2 Meg in size, unless it’s a PHOTO calendar, which is about 3 Meg.  Their servers are a little flaky and you might need to download more than once. Also, the Photo calendars only go to the end of March, but you can download the quarterly updates, and this is where you’ll find those. http://www.page-a-day.com/cars/download.html http://www.page-a-day.com/cats/download.html http://www.page-a-day.com/dogs/download.html http://www.page-a-day.com/gard/download.html <– Gardens http://www.page-a-day.com/golf/download.html <– Golf Holes I’ve had no trouble running several calendars at once. — Salt of the Earth

Response:

OK, this is old, but it looks like it’s expired, so I’m going to post it here again.  40 of the 47 Page-A-Day calendars are ready for download. They never could get the 4 puzzle calendars [Bridge, Mensa, Scrabble, Chess] and the 2 web calendars [Fly Fishing, Audubon Birds] to work, so those 6 have been scrapped.  The 365 NEW WORDS A DAY works, but has a weird little problem with the pronunciation font.  They’re working on it, but I’m not going to post another update when that’s fixed. So, that leaves 40 good working calendars, and if you really don’t care about the pronunciation font, you can count it as 41.  Here’s where you can find them: http://www.page-a-day.com/downloads.html If you’re looking for a ZODIAC sign calendar, and #freeasd’ers have occasionally heard me read from them, you can find them at [for example] http://www.page-a-day.com/beta/hari.exe <– Aries http://www.page-a-day.com/beta/htau.exe <– Taurus http://www.page-a-day.com/beta/hcan.exe <– Cancer I think you can see the pattern.  For a MAC version, replace the .exe with .hqx and download that instead. Each download calendar is about 2 Meg in size, unless it’s a PHOTO calendar, which is about 3 Meg.  Their servers are a little flaky and you might need to download more than once. Also, the Photo calendars only go to the end of March, but you can download the quarterly updates, and this is where you’ll find those. http://www.page-a-day.com/cars/download.html http://www.page-a-day.com/cats/download.html http://www.page-a-day.com/dogs/download.html http://www.page-a-day.com/gard/download.html <– Gardens http://www.page-a-day.com/golf/download.html <– Golf Holes I’ve had no trouble running several calendars at once. — Salt of the Earth

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Question:

I’m going to Roatan, Honduras on June 8 for a week or so and I hope to do some fishing and kayaking. I will be packing an 8wt Sage and a FeatherCraft and I will be able to paddle pretty far to hit a good fishig spot. I have never been to the island, Any ideas? Any help is appreciated. peace, Brent McMahan Sibley/Peteet Design

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Brent, I’ve been to Roatan but unfortunately didn’t take a fly rod.  However Jack Samson in "Saltwater Fly Fishing" Stackpool Books, 1991 has several hints about numerous fish and fishing spots around the Bay Islands. Have fun. Herb

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We are planning to spent a week over the holidays on Roatan and would like info on fly fishing in that area from anyone who has been there.

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<< We are planning to spent a week over the holidays on Roatan and would like info on fly fishing in that area from anyone who has been there.   Lee, you have no idea how lucky you are.  Roatan is really a wonderful island. The unspoiled beauty is amazing and the people are really friendly.   Be prepared though, because Roatan is about as third world as you can get. There is one road that runs most of the way down the island.  It has various deep potholes in it and it becomes dirt if you go far enough.  Many of people live in homes without windows and I would suspect dirt floors.  However, the standard of living seems to be increasing now that NCL has two ships that stop on the island.   The NCL Sea arrives on Thursday morning so you can be sure to plan your outings around the addition of 800 people to the island.  Avoid places like Tabyana beach and Fantasy Island as these are extremely popular destinations with cruise line passengers. I didn’t get a chance to fish while I was there.  We only had one day and went dolphin swimming and snorkeling at Half Moon Bay.  There was a charter boat by the pier though and he charged like $15 an hour for two people.  He had all saltwater gear though but I would bet he would take into the flats for some fly fishing. One last thing.  If you use a taxi, make sure you don’t pay them until they pick you up.  Otherwise you will only be contributing to somebodys retirement fund and will be stranded, hehe.  Email me if you have more questions . Mike

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It has been several years since I was there so things could be better.  The good news, there are fair bones and lots of permit there. The bad news, when I was there, there was only one guide and he was trying to get started. The island is so dive oriented, no one worries about fishing. Sorry, I can’t remember the name of the guide.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are planning to spent a week over the holidays on Roatan and would like info on fly fishing in that area from anyone who has been there.

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Question:

Jim: In addition to the excellent suggestions made by Bob, I would suggest you also look at Cortland and Reddington.  Both make rod/reel/line combos, probably falling somewhere in between the low and medium price range.  Cortland’s usually includes a video that may be helpful.  Also, the Sage Discovery series has a combo that is worth a look that isn’t exhorbitantly priced.  All of those manufacturers will have dealers somewhere that should allow you to try the rods before buying, to see what feels best for you.  On the mail order side, Cabela’s has a number of combos available. Of course, a good fly shop will be able to work with you and put together a package that works too. Once you’ve got all that stuff, you’ll need some flies.  They seem to run between $1 and $2 apiece for decent flies where I live.  Hopefully you’ve already got some waders and wading shoes/boots. URL’s Cortland  <http://www.lightlink.com/cortland Cabela’s  <http://www.cabelas.com While looking at the combo packages, don’t think that because they are less expensive than the top of the line they are junk.  On the contrary. You may eventually want to move up in quality, but a good package from a good manufacturer should serve you in good stead for quite some time (until you just gotta have that high end Winston, Loomis, T & T etc. <grin) Good luck and happy shopping. Ron.

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Jim, It’s likely you may want to get more than one rod/reel combo to "cover the bases".  I don’t know exactly what you’re after, but I’d suggest a 5-weight and a 9-weight.  The 5 is incredibly versatile for trout and other freshwater fish, while the 9 will give you a great saltwater rod for bluefish, stripers, bonefish and permit, as well as offering you the opportunity to pull in some big steelhead.  You can get the whole nine yards from Orvis for around $400 for each rod/reel combo–and that includes the line and cases.  Of course, you’ll also want to invest in a good pair of waders, a vest, flies, etc…my advice would be to talk to a guide in the area where you will be doing most of your fishing. Enjoy. E

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Jim, It’s likely you may want to get more than one rod/reel combo to "cover the bases".  I don’t know exactly what you’re after, but I’d suggest a 5-weight and a 9-weight…

Jim, This is the beginning of the end. Once you’ve got the five weight and the nine weight, and a reel and line to go with each, and the jacket and the bags, and the flies and the boxes, you’ll be in too deep to get out. Like the rest of us. Andrew                     The History of Fly Fishing             http://www.elisis.com/Fly.fishing.history/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim, It’s likely you may want to get more than one rod/reel combo to "cover the bases".  I don’t know exactly what you’re after, but I’d suggest a 5-weight and a 9-weight… Jim, This is the beginning of the end. Once you’ve got the five weight and the nine weight, and a reel and line to go with each, and the jacket and the bags, and the flies and the boxes, you’ll be in too deep to get out. Like the rest of us. Andrew                    The History of Fly Fishing            http://www.elisis.com/Fly.fishing.history/

        Dear new found friends- I really wanted to thank all of you for your generosity of time and advise- I’ve quite frankly been amazed at the number of you in the NG that were willing to spend the amount of time you have to help a total neophyte.  Of course I realized after receiving some response that I was too ignorant to have given you all any pertinent info about what the heck I might be trying to catch-Dah!!         So let me fill you in about who you were trying to help         I’m a 55 yr old about to retire dentist- and before any of you start to wonder about why I shoul give a darn about how much this stuff costs- I must add that I’m also in possesion of the first dollar I ever made- enough said.  I’m in Ohio and plan to fish local waters for smallmouth and panfish.  I also wish to fish for trout around the Petoskey, MI area and to accompany my 82 yr old uncle ( who is still an avid trout guy) out west.         The real reason for the post was that I had heard(my ignorance) stories about $2000 outfits.  So I went to the local sportschain store to see for myself what a flyrod actually looked and felt like. They had complete outfits that really looked to me to be kind of junky and the personnel had NOT a clue about flyfishing- even I figured that out.         So although I pretty much knew I didn’t want the junk I also wasn’t real keen on walking into a REAL shop and being talked into $2000 worth of stuff without any knowledge of the alternatives.  You guys have been so kind as to give me inumerable sorces of quqlity gear at reasonable getting started prices and for that I am very grateful!!         So thanks again for the input and you should be proud of your knowledge and the "art" that you share so willingly with others.                 With kindest personal regards,                                 Jim PS.  And Dr. Andrew- Sorry but I fear that I got in "too deep" several weeks ago in Michigan.  I stood on the banks of a small stream for quite a while watching entranced as one of your compatriots plied his magic with fly rod on the stream- it was very close to a spirtual experience that I believe I want to share beside all of you.

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   Could you please, if you have the time and inclination, list some tackle and gear combinations in perhaps three general price combinations- Low,Med, Top of the line.  I’d be interested in specific brand recommendations so that I can research these.

The gear market is quite a varied lot right now, so I’ll just give you some average rod/reel/line combo prices, okay? Bargain Basement End:   (Shakespeare, etc. ) $50 Low End:  (Orvis Clearwater, Bean Angler, etc.)  $150 Middle Ground:  $300 High End:  $600+ Ridiculous End: (custom bamboo, etc.)  $1500+ Depending upon your financial situation with your pending retirement, I’d recommend you jump in on the Low to Middle Ground.  I’m not sure what you’re fishing for, but for a standard trout rig, I’d recommend that you buy a decent rod, a top-end flyline, and a reel….in that order of importance.  (IMHO).  For fish under 6 lbs, with a reasonably stout tippet/leader, a click-pawl style reel will serve you nicely. For larger fish or lighter tippets, consider upgrading to a disc-drag style reel.  The more popular manufacturers/retailers in the industry today are Sage, Loomis, Orvis, LL Bean for rods.   I’d highly recommend trying a few rod/reel combinations from a local flyshop to see what type of action/length, etc. that you prefer.  The shop owners will also be able to point you to the other "necessities" which you’ll need.      Also, could you point me toward URL’s that have online catalog pricing or that I can order printed catalogs.

Here’s a couple that will start you on your research. www.llbean.com      (L.L. Bean….ask for a FFing Spec. Catalog) www.orvis.com     (Orvis….same as above) There are others online too , but both of these retailers have a range of products to illustrate the price ranges mentioned above. Good Luck! Bob Skehan

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   I’d be interested in some kind folks giving me some input as to the general start up costs involved in starting out on this adventure.  My it is very difficult- not to mention TIME consuming-to reply to- so I wouldn’t be suprised if I don’t catch anything from this post- we all have our time consrtaints- but let me thank you in advance if you are kind enough to reply.    Again, thank you for you kind consideration,            Regards, Jim

I think you’re making a good choice to get involved if flyfishing.  If nothing else, your retirement won’t be boring.   I don’t have any sage advice to pass on, but; I do have a short story. I read all of the books and learned to flyfish basically by myself.  I had been actively flyfishing (mostly once or twice a month) for about ten years.  We were visiting Reno NV. for a few months and I was really injoying the fishing in the Truckee River there.  I’d come home in the evening and tell my wife all of the great stuff I’d done and what a wonderful day I’d had.  After a while, she wanted to join in the fun.  She asked me if she minded if she learned to fish and came fishing wiht me.  I told her I would love it she joined me but, I was unsure of my ablilty to teach her to fish (I was also a little worried about the friction me teaching her to fish would cause). Being a very smart woman, she understood my position.  She got on the phone and called the fly shop in Reno (I don’t recall thier name but I think it’s the only one in town).  She explained her situation to them, and asked for help.  What they offered was simple, two days with and veteran guide and the use of thier equipment.  The first half of the first day was inside she learned the knots and terminology she needed.  After lunch, she learned to cast.  The next day, they fished. I don’t remember what she paid for this but it seems if was just a regular guide fee for two days.  After fishing, she was hooked and bought an outfit they recommended to her (actually a bargain clearout model they happened to have). After those two days of concentrated instruction, she could fish as well as I after all of my years of reading and trial and error.   It worked out perfectly for me.  I got a good fishing partner I enjoy being with and didn’t screw up a good marriagre trying to teach how to fish.  Not only that, her  being good has pushed me to learn more and take advice from everyone I see.  Since then (thats been about 12 years ago)  we have taken guided trips together and gone to classes that have interested us.  And of course, we have fished together and had some great times. So, I guess the morale of my story.  Hire someone that knows the sport to learn the basics.  Take thier advice on equipment.  If you fish in a new area hire a guide for a day and pick his brain as much as you can.  And above all, don’t get big headed and think you know more than the next guy you meet on the water.  His advice may be the one thing you need to have a good day.   Well hope my rambling didn’t go on too long, and good luck. Steve Russell

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        I’d be interested in some kind folks giving me some input as to the general start up costs involved in starting out on this adventure.  My background is some infrequent spinner baiting for bass and, of course, I’ve drowned a few worms in my time.  But I’m about to retire and want to enjoy some of the finer things in life- fly fishing has always appealed to my sense of imagination as the ultimate art form regarding a combination of sport mingled with a satisfying environmental experience- so I’d like to at least try my hand at it.         I have a general understanding from years of hard experience, that in many cases using inferior equiptment may NOT give me the degree of satisfaction that is possible when you have the finest- but there is a degree of practicality involved in jumping into anything new , so what I would really be interested in is this-         Could you please, if you have the time and inclination, list some tackle and gear combinations in perhaps three general price combinations- Low,Med, Top of the line.  I’d be interested in specific brand recommendations so that I can research these.         Also, could you point me toward URL’s that have online catalog pricing or that I can order printed catalogs.         I am quite aware that this is such an open ended question that it is very difficult- not to mention TIME consuming-to reply to- so I wouldn’t be suprised if I don’t catch anything from this post- we all have our time consrtaints- but let me thank you in advance if you are kind enough to reply.         Again, thank you for you kind consideration,                 Regards, Jim

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Question:

: Maybe Sandy should parcel off the 2/3rds to the readers of ROFF.  The : only thing we’d have to figure out is what section Tim is going to get : and where we’ll build the whore house. I also want to know where Wayne will park his truck to begin the bean-fest. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: Maybe Sandy should parcel off the 2/3rds to the readers of ROFF.  The : only thing we’d have to figure out is what section Tim is going to get : and where we’ll build the whore house. I also want to know where Wayne will park his truck to begin the bean-fest.

Upwind of the beavers…that’ll drive ‘em out. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

Hi Sandy-    Lets say some Californian just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in SW Montana. . . and immediately wanted to sub divide it, build a sprawling ranchette and get rid of the vermin. You need to kill the beavers quick because they’re flooding the road and you just washed your Orvis endorsed vehicle and don’t really want to drive on a wet road. And, hear this, it gets even worse: they’re eating willows. Can’t they eat dog food or bird seed or something?    To answer your question: grenades work well. Pull the pin, count to sixty real slow then throw it at one of those damn beavers.    -Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.   But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you).  But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? —

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com

Response:

: Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale : in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, : You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on : the third. I think with three houses, and probably fences, it’s no longer going to be the prettiest 100 acres in SW MT, beavers or no. That said, I’m kinda ambivalent about the beaver thing; I can see why one sides complains about our manipulation of nature, and I can see why someone would want to get rid of the ones on their property. So,… I would think letting a trapper come in would be the best, or is the fur market non-existant these days?  A beaver pelt used to be fairly valuable, I hope in this hypothetical example those three pelts weren’t tossed… Jon Cook.

Response:

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you). But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? —

Sandy, I’d sure like to teach the beavers how to get rid of you! But, maybe the greedy real estate agent that handled the sale would be a better target. Pat

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you). But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? — Sandy, I’d sure like to teach the beavers how to get rid of you! But, maybe the greedy real estate agent that handled the sale would be a better target. Pat

Obviously Sandy hasn’t had to deal with the little "construction freaks".  Contact your local Fish and Game and they will put you in touch with a local or state trapper to remedy your problems.   It takes time and should be done in the Winter months as to not waste the hides.  They can be a real problem if you let them get a good hold on your drainage.  Good luck   Ace in Alaska

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you). But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? — Sandy, I’d sure like to teach the beavers how to get rid of you! But, maybe the greedy real estate agent that handled the sale would be a better target. Pat Obviously Sandy hasn’t had to deal with the little "construction freaks".  Contact your local Fish and Game and they will put you in touch with a local or state trapper to remedy your problems. It takes time and should be done in the Winter months as to not waste the hides.  They can be a real problem if you let them get a good hold on your drainage.  Good luck   Ace in Alaska

christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse.  It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman

Response:

Quoting: christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse. It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman Any other readers see a paradox here? — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

        to tell you the truth, i’ve never seen a beaver i wouldn’t love to eat.         a. wayne harrison

Response:

: My advice ?   : One small cabin on the whole 100 acres on the dryest most protected spot. : Your wealth would exceed that possible by sub-dividing and developing. Maybe, but the question is whether he could afford the mortgage payments on that wealth.  Even the locals get caught up in this stuff… I see it all over.  Pretty soon, the latecomers will start complaining about all the growth… — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Who knows, maybe the deer will visit you in your dreams.

in the mountain village,    the wind rustles the leaves. deep in the night, the deer    cry out beyond the end of dreams.            – minimoto no morotada

Response:

Maybe Sandy should parcel off the 2/3rds to the readers of ROFF.  The only thing we’d have to figure out is what section Tim is going to get and where we’ll build the whore house.

I heard that a famous tributary of the Snake got its name when some trappers were sitting around and one said "someone go into town and bring a Hoback". TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you). But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? — Sandy, I’d sure like to teach the beavers how to get rid of you! But, maybe the greedy real estate agent that handled the sale would be a better target. Pat

Good old leg holds and conibear traps have always worked well for me. Don Kelly

Response:

Yeah, the beavers are in their natural environment.  The Californian is not!

This thread has been a lesson in mass-hysteria.  I don’t know whether Sandy has ever been to California, but he’s lived in Montana as long as I’ve known him. Sandy: do what you must with the beavers, but PLEASE don’t subdivide! If you Montanans continue to chop up Montana into little make-believe tourist ranches, as we have done to Colorado, where will I go on vacation? — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

Dear Ralph; Oh, Lord, man; you are great, just great!  I love it: you should be a writer or something.  

Yea, maybe he could write a guide about fishing the Sierra Nevada for trout. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

Yeah, the beavers are in their natural environment.  The Californian is not! This thread has been a lesson in mass-hysteria.  I don’t know whether Sandy has ever been to California, but he’s lived in Montana as long as I’ve known him.

I don’t know if Sandy has been to California either but I know that Ralph lives there and I lived in California all my life.  The environment that Ralph lived is nothing like the area that I lived.  So, I’m wondering, exactly what is a Californian’s natural environment, or does Jason just have some stereotypical view of what California is like. Sandy: do what you must with the beavers, but PLEASE don’t subdivide! If you Montanans continue to chop up Montana into little make-believe tourist ranches, as we have done to Colorado, where will I go on vacation?

Maybe Sandy should parcel off the 2/3rds to the readers of ROFF.  The only thing we’d have to figure out is what section Tim is going to get and where we’ll build the whore house. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.   But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you).  But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What?

As long as the habitat is right, they will come back even if you kill them all right now.  Consider the South Platte corridor right through Denver. They can’t keep a young tree alive in this park-like setting for the beavers. My advice ?   One small cabin on the whole 100 acres on the dryest most protected spot. Your wealth would exceed that possible by sub-dividing and developing. Who knows, maybe the deer will visit you in your dreams. TimW

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This is a hot topic around here (NC) as well. Beaver populations are way up in suburbia – all their predators are gone and the beavers are protected in many areas. Many neighborhood lakes have trouble ranging from tree loss to damage to dams. I have lost a couple of trees on a lot I own to beavers. Sometimes they are trapped live and relocated, but there are fewer and fewer places to put them. I put chicken wire around the base of all the remaining trees. Nice simple solution for me – I only have a small lot to protect, and they can move on and bother someone else. But I can certainly understand how options might be limited in other cases. I am glad I don’t have to think about doing it, but I think there may be cases where it may be necessary. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, if you want some kind of vote on who’s approach to an idiots QUESTION regarding beavers and beaver ponds is more acceptable . . . let my fellow fly fishermen post a few replies regarding "KILLING BEAVERS", is the preferred approach, okay ace?

Response:

So, if you want some kind of vote on who’s approach to an idiots QUESTION regarding beavers and beaver ponds is more acceptable . . . let my fellow fly fishermen post a few replies regarding "KILLING BEAVERS", is the preferred approach, okay ace?

I can tell this must be some sort of religious thing for you George since you seem to evoke the christian deity frequently on this topic. However, if you want a vote I would say "It all depends" (no, I’m not running for office). For example, our family has had hunting-fishing property here since the 30’s or 40’s (that’s the last 50-60 years). There have never been beaver in that area. The last 4 years or so beaver have moved in and have devastated many areas for fishing. This situation would very likely reach a new equilibrium in about 20-30 years as the stream beds moved, swamps formed etc. However, since beaver are new there, we are not willing to sacrifice a generation of fishing to reach that point- sorry but that’s too bad. However, if the original poster bought land that had been long colonized by beaver and the ecosystem and trout reproduction were in equilibrium with the beaver, then I would say 1) don’t bother them and 2) they are probably so locally widespread that you will never make much headway since they will continually recolonize the area and 3) they probably don’t negatively impact the fishing under those conditions and may actually help and 4) don’t develop (subdivide) the land. Signing off without a deprecating remark. Jon

Response:

Quoting: christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse. It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman Any other readers see a paradox here? — Yeah, the beavers are in their natural environment.  The Californian is not!

JB

Response:

Quoting: christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse. It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman Any other readers see a paradox here? — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Yah, the fact I missed mentioning you if you’re for killing beavers as a solution to every human who thinks they have a problem with beavers. They were here long before we arrived.  Seems "Man" cannot keep his hand off a spot on this earth for even a little bird to stand upon.  So, what is your problem that you cannot stand up for the life of one beaver?  Or two, or a family of them which make beautiful Brook Trout Ponds and rich soiled valley’s that produce in time . . . lush, green elk pastures or habitat for moose, etc? Instead of being a smart-ass and talking about fly tying and flies that are used on Beaver Ponds . . . your kind only can think of how to miss-manage our wildlife.  Right? right. So, if you want some kind of vote on who’s approach to an idiots QUESTION regarding beavers and beaver ponds is more acceptable . . . let my fellow fly fishermen post a few replies regarding "KILLING BEAVERS", is the preferred approach, okay ace? christ.. George Gehrke / Mr. Gink

Response:

Quoting: christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse. It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman

Any other readers see a paradox here? — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

Dear Ralph; Oh, Lord, man; you are great, just great!  I love it: you should be a writer or something.  You just took his post, stood on the complete opposite side of it, telling us like it is.  Just beautiful, man!  Those urbanites: now, with the age of delocation upon us, no wilderness is safe from their spoiling touch.  Keep up the good fight! Sincerely Jason Beary

Response:

  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you).  But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand

1.  Normal beaver life style includes excluding the young from the family i.e. forcing them to emigrate, when they get to be two years old.  So sooner or later the parent couple will die off and the site will become vacant. 2.  You can accelerate this by the combination of opportunistic shooting and trapping, easiest in winter when ice restricts their movement. Exterminating a single family seems to do no appreciable damage to the continent-wide beaver gene pool these days. 3.  But you need to bear in mind #1, i.e. there’s another beaver family two or three miles away that will be kicking its young adults out of the nest — and when they find your site vacant they will occupy it!  The cycle of occupation/vacancy seems to be 7 or 8 years.     As someone else posted, local wildlife authorities may (or may not) have better advice about both short-term and long-term control.  Beaver can do a lot of damage where species like poplar are abundant, e.g. can fell whole stands of mature trees and just leave them there without salvaging the proceeds. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.   But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you).  But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? —

Response:

So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What?

How about live trapping and relocation? — K.G. (Kat) Cruickshank, ichthyophile. Toronto, Ontario, Canada. see my illustrations at http://www.mackerel.com/fish/home.html

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Question:

I’ll be in Los Angeles on business in late April.  Can anyone offer advice on the Kern River, or any other good rivers close enough to fish in a day trip from LA?  Conditions?  Recommended flies?  All advice appreciated. Thanks, George Black

Response:

I’ll be in Los Angeles on business in late April.  Can anyone offer advice on the Kern River, or any other good rivers close enough to fish in a day trip from LA?  Conditions?  Recommended flies?  All advice appreciated. Thanks, George Black

Hi George, You might take a look at the Aguabonita Fly Fishers home page. The club is located in Ridgecrest, California. I believe the Kern is one of their home waters. The site can be accessed at: http://www1.ridgecrest.ca.us/~auborn/agua/agua.html I hope this helps,    Alan.   Alan Barnard   Kiene’s Fly Shop   Sacramento, California   WWW Fly Tyer   http://www.ns.net/~barnard

Response:

I learned to fly fish on the Kern and can tell you a little about it. Firstly, there is an incredible motel/steak house up the Kern from Kernville called Johnny McNally’s that you absolutely must stay at.  They serve a 48 ounce porterhouse called "The Logger" that you can cut with a fork.  Try the 28 ounce Filet.   Onto fishing… Drive up the Kern past McNally’s to the Johnsondale Bridge.  The road that parallels the River departs at this point.  Park here and hike up the river and fish as you go.  There is about 4-5 miles of trails up the gorge and all the fishing is single barbless artificials only.  You can keep two a day over 14".  BE CAREFUL!!    I’ve been stopped twice out of three visits by the game marshal.  Don’t waste your time on the weekends below the bridge, but during the week it is not crowded.  I’ve heard that the San Gabriel is a good spot for fishing, but there have been gang problems. Get a good topographical map of the region- there is also the entire Golden Trout Wilderness farther up the Kern you need to explore.  

Response:

 I’ve heard that the San Gabriel is a good spot for fishing, but there have been gang problems.

What sort of problems have you heard about?  I’ve fish the West fork a few times recently and have wondered about all the graffitti.   Rick Krizman KrizManic Music,   Venice, CA

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Question:

Non-resident fishing permit for the year is $25, for 14 days, it’s $15, and for a 3-day permit, it’s $8.  The Gasconade River is a very good river for smallmouth, largemouth, and Kentucky (spotted) bass.  Bear in mind, however, that there is a smallmouth bass experimental management area on the Gasconade from the Highway Y bridge in Pulaski County to Highway D bridge in Phelps County.  Within this area the daily limit on black bass is 6, and no more than one may be a smallmouth.  All smallmouth caught less than 18 inches must be returned to the water unharmed immediately after being caught.  If you get bored with the Gasconade (which you might, since it’s a pretty popular river during the weekends), you might want to move your expedition to the Big Piney River, very near to the Gasconade and Rolla.  The Big Piney was recognized by Field & Stream (I think), as one of the top 5 smallmouth fisheries in the midwest.  It is a very pristine, totally unpolluted stream.  If you’d like to do some wading, and perhaps catch some trout and smallmouth, try Little Piney Creek in Phelps County.  It joins the Gasconade near Jerome Access.  I’ve been fishing this creek religiously for the past 2 years, and it’s really sucked away study time. Beautiful scenery, fiesty fish, nice people–you couldn’t pick a better place to go fishin’.                      –Jason S. Cummins                        Civil Engineering Junior                        University of Missouri-Rolla

Response:

I have a question . . . I’m gonna be fishing this weekend on the Gasconade river (not far from Rolla, Missouri) and I’d like to know how much an out of state fishing licence costs these days.

Non-resident fishing license is $25  "    "      14-day permit   is $15  "    "       3-day permit   is $ 8              Trout  stamp    is $ 6 A $2 tag is required at all 4 trout parks. A catch-and-release weekend off-season pass is $5 for trout parks. See Missouri flyfishing page on the Web: http://www.agron.missouri.edu:80/flyfishing/license.html   –Charlie Rond

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I have a question . . . I’m gonna be fishing this weekend on the Gasconade river (not far from Rolla, Missouri) and I’d like to know how much an out of state fishing licence costs these days. Thanks in advance for your reply. Dave Fortner

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Question:

There was an article in Field and Stream a few years back all about the Bow R. — check out one of the magazine databases on CompuServe.

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FISHING IN ALBERTA AND THE NORTHWEST TERRITORIES (CANADA). I have got a friend that is going to Canada on the 16′th of July and therefore he is very interested in getting some informations about fishing for trouts in Alberta and the Northwest Territories. To be more specific he would like to know something about: 1) Fishing in the Bow River. For example what part of the river has got the best fishing, would it be possible to do a combination of fishing/canoeing down the river and if so where can he rent a canoe? Is it legal to camp on the bank and if not what othe All informations about fishing/canoeing on the Bow River are most welcome. 2) Concerning the Northwest Territories he is interested in hearing from anyone that can tell something about fishing for lake trouts in Great Bear Lake/Great Slave Lake (or any other place that is recommendable) If anyone can help with something of the above mentioned please respond bye email, before the 8′th of July  

Response:

Mr Bo Max Andersen asked on 21 June: 1) Fishing in the Bow River. For example what part of the river has got the best fishing, would it be possible to do a combination of fishing/canoeing down the  river and if so where can he rent a canoe?

Is it legal to camp on the bank and if not what othe <??? All informations about fishing/canoeing on the Bow River are most welcome. The "best" part of the Bow is the special regulations water from the 22x Highway Bridge to the Caresland Irrigation Weir.  It has the greatest numbers of trout per km and the heaviest hatches.  All of the water in this stretch is pretty tame – your friend shouldn’t have any trouble. HOWEVER, I hear from friends that the Bow is running off very heavily and heavy rains have made it worse – when it’s high, some stretches are a little rougher to run through.  I suspect the river will be fishing okay by mid-July, but it is likely to be high, so the dry fly activity may be hard to find – hit the back channels hard.  Streamers can be a blast in higher water, though. As for camping, you will not be well advised to camp on the banks.  They are private property above the high-water marks and prosectution can really spoil the fun.  The islands in mid-stream, however, are not.  We used to camp on those with no problem.  Your friend would be well advised to hit one of the fly shops in Calgary and get a river map and advice (a couple of the islands are actually private). Assuming a pretty sedate pace, the lower Bow from 22x down is about three days, though with a canoe and high water it might only be two. This assumes getting out pretty often.  Policeman’s (about 5 miles downstream from Calgary) to McKinnon Flats is normally a long day’s float. Public access can be had at a number of places in Calgary, then 22x, Policeman’s, McKinnon’s and Carseland.  Vehicle shuttles are pretty easy to get. Hope this helps, Ian Brown

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Question:

Anyone use a FF comp. game/simulator that goes by the name of Fly Fishing The McCloud River? Yeah? Well, don’t leave us in suspense…

Response:

The McCloud River Game is available from Orvis San Francisco 3 animated screens ..run..riffle..pool.  Nice casting loops..success based on selecting fly best for season/time of day..casting to holding water for large trout..reel zzzz fish break off.. not designed for hard core game manics..fly fisherman new to computer games love it for the feel of fly fishing for big rainbows and browns on the best freestone river anywhere. dh

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Question:

Geez.   One extremely well-written post about the impact of campfires and 4 sub-posts about how rocks can explode.  Seems like the point is being missed. I agree with Rick.   Everything we do has an impact of some kind.  Unless we’re willing to completely vacate the backcountry,  arguing about fires is truly splitting hairs. In high backcountry I continue to obey a self-enforced policy of no fires.  I agree with those who say that you’re more in touch with nature without the glare of flames.  At the same time, there are times a fire is a natural and morally acceptable practice, and a welcome companion on a cold or wet night.   I say, use your own judgement.  If you have none, I’ll spend a bit more time cleaning up after you.  It’s a small price to pay for the wilderness. Jim Stallings  - Seabeck, Washington "Concrete is heavy; iron is hard – but the grass will prevail"   Ed Abbey

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Scott Stuart) writes:   NOTE- I don’t think I have to say, but just in case….  DONT use rocks   from the lake in your fire ring, they will explode, and send deadly   shrapnel and hot coals everywhere.   What’s all this about exploding rocks? Believe me, THEY DO EXPLODE! One time I was backpacking with my friends and we had to make a small camp site (we couldn’t find any on the trail).  I used some of the larger rocks near a small stream to make our campfire ring. It was 1-2 hrs after we got the fire started, that one of the rocks cracked (from steam preasure inside). Nobody was hurt (suprised though) but next time I know better where to find my campfire rocks! Kurt

Nah, let them NOT believe you and see it for themselves.  It’s the only way some people learn.

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:    NOTE- I don’t think I have to say, but just in case….  DONT use rocks :    from the lake in your fire ring, they will explode, and send deadly :    shrapnel and hot coals everywhere.   : What’s all this about exploding rocks?  While packing in the Porky’s in the UP of Mi we built a fire ring with  rocks from the creek. Well never again,after sitting down to a meal  the damm fire blew up in our face. As luck/fate would have it no one  got hurt but several in our group had holes in there clothing from  flying rocks. In short don’t use wet rocks since there have retained  water in them and when heated steam builds up in them which means  pressure builds up in them and you get the picture by now.  Hopes this helps  Ike Grill somewhere in Wisconsin and still have sight.

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  NOTE- I don’t think I have to say, but just in case….  DONT use rocks   from the lake in your fire ring, they will explode, and send deadly   shrapnel and hot coals everywhere.   What’s all this about exploding rocks?

Believe me, THEY DO EXPLODE! One time I was backpacking with my friends and we had to make a small camp site (we couldn’t find any on the trail).  I used some of the larger rocks near a small stream to make our campfire ring. It was 1-2 hrs after we got the fire started, that one of the rocks cracked (from steam preasure inside). Nobody was hurt (suprised though) but next time I know better where to find my campfire rocks! Kurt

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(Joseph Scott Stuart) writes: What’s all this about exploding rocks?

"Creek rocks!" – (I’m sure someone will correct me if I get this wrong) Yes, exploding rocks.  A rock that’s been submerged (particularly   something porous like sandstone) is soaked with water.  If you put it in a   fire, it heats up.  If it heats up, too quickly for the water to escape   (which is a likely condition) the rapidly expanding water vapor inside the   rock will cause it to "explode" – marvelous "fun" about a campfire for   those so inclined… but something I would prefer to avoid. – Mark

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   NOTE- I don’t think I have to say, but just in case….  DONT use rocks    from the lake in your fire ring, they will explode, and send deadly    shrapnel and hot coals everywhere.   What’s all this about exploding rocks?

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        In light of the most recent rearing of the ugly head of anti-campfire zealots, I feel compeled to post what I know about minimizing campfire impact.  But first, an introduction and a caveat.         I don’t dispute the fact that fires do quite a bit of damage to the environment.  Allowing campfires in heavily-impacted areas is very often a mistake, due to the many problems associated with both the combustion process and the act of building the fire itself- such as trampling around the undergrowth and scarring (most often permanently) fire ring rocks.  I support fire bans in high-use areas for these reasons.  I would include nearly all well-known back-country areas stateside in my list of fire-ban areas, since they get alot of use.  Moreover, nearly any high-country worth backpacking is fragile enough to make a fire ban neccessary.         BUT, fire bans are NOT appropriate in all areas.  Zealots like those who posit that all fire-builders are selfish are being incredibly short-sited and self absorbed.  Not everyone limits travels to a) backpacking, b) heavy- use areas, c) the USA, and d) trips of short duration (read: less than one week).         A few posters have noted that they, like I, rely almost exclusively on fires for trips in Far northern Saskatchewan and Manitoba.  By far northern I mean north of the Churchill river- and my favorite area- the Wollaston Lk, Cochran River area.  This is heavily wooded (although 50 or so miles south of the tundra), heavily forest-fire burnt (every area has evidence of fire within about 30 years), and rarely traveled since the voyageurs used the rivers as fur trading routes.           These trips are over thirty days in length, making it totally impractical to carry fuel.  You couldn’t carry enough of it, for one. You wouldn’t want to risk a spill when there are weeks of paddling in between even native settlements.  And, you generally wouldn’t be able to afford the cost of the fuel.  Moreover, cooking for six people over a stove is futile for heavy-calorie meal prep.   Not to mention the fact that I never had to stray  more than twenty feet from the site to find bone-dry driftwood laying either on the beaches (in the north) or on the rocks (on the shield), in enormous quantities. Presented with the above, in addition to the impact of burning the fossil fuels and inevitable spills of fuel on VERY fragile Caribou moss, I opt for the fires.  Any arguments to the effect of the "more efficient burning" of stoves or "quicker boiling time" are just splitting hairs. Anyone who has been in a similar situation with similar numbers is welcome to disagree.  Theorists can continue to theorize…  ’nuff said.           The Impact of fires, given the above, needs to be minimized.  Any traveler who manages to GET to this area cares enough to want to preserve it.  [Ask me sometime about the two day all dirt road trip to my dropoff point on Wollaston.]  Part of the joy of this area is the feeling of solitude that comes from such a pristine wilderness- and anyone who is there is immediately faced with the enormous responsibility to preserve it.  Many of the natives and non-native fly-in fishing guides and non-native camps pollute their nests with "shore lunch’ fires using HUGE chunks of driftwood left half-burnt on shore,  toss fish innards all over the place, and generally behave with the abandon of 19th century humankind when they were faced with the seemingly endless ocean- and treated it like a bottomless wastecan.           Ok. So if you DO get up there- or you DO make a decision to use fires- what do you do to minimize the impact?  I’ll do it point by point: 1) Gather only fallen, dead wood.  Never break off branches (even from "dead" trees still standing).  Walk at least 100 yds away from the campsite before beginning to gather. 2). Know your woods.  Pine burns fast and hot- birch slow and cool.  Pine and hardwoods are better for starting fires, which can then be maintained with bigger, slower-burning woods like birch.  LOTS of wood is wasted by people trying to start fires with the wrong wood.  Moreover, the right wood on a proper set of coals will burn very efficiently, indeed.  And with little smoke. 3) Fire rings-                 A). Always used established fire rings where available.  If none are available:                 B). Sod turning technique:  Clear away duff.  Cut out a rectangle about 4-6 inches deep in the earth.  Build the fire in the hole.  Make sure (as ALWAYS) that the fire is OUT COMPLETELY, then replace the rectangle back in the hole.  This technique’s advantage is that it is VERY low-impact, but if you like to burn dishwater or food scraps, you run the risk of critters unearthing your cinders.  You can line the hole with rocks, but they will be scarred black and unsightly.  If you do use the rocks, you can either bury them or "lake" them when cold.                 C). Flat Rock Technique:  This was my favorite on the shield.  Find a flat rock, and build the fire on it.  It scars only that rock (or any others you use as wind shields, depending on conditions) which you can "lake."  Meaning, of course, that you toss it, when cold, into the lake, where mother nature will turn the scarred rock into dust in a few millenia. NOTE- I don’t think I have to say, but just in case….  DONT use rocks from the lake in your fire ring, they will explode, and send deadly shrapnel and hot coals everywhere.   4)  Size- Limit yourself to "cooking" fires- about the size of the bottom of your skillet.  And limit the size of your fuel to the diameter of a silver dollar.  These fires are plenty hot when well maintained- even in the June snows of Saskatchewan. 5) Try not to pollute other people’s environment- remember, a fire from across the lake is a reminder than you are not alone.  Some people like to feel alone.  So keep the fire small and as much out of site as is practical. 6) Consider using "fire sticks" or similar firestarters to cut down on kindling needs, especially on wet days. Hopefully this is useful information for the teeming masses.   ANY trip into the wilderness implies a gentle balance between impact and enjoyment.  To have any enjoyment by being someplace means that you have to, first, get there (by burning fossil fuels) and then, move around (trampling the underbrush or trail).  Not to mention the equipment most of us cart around.  If you want to get under a Patagonia Rep’s skin sometime, ask about the vats and vats of caustic slop that is left over after making out synchilla such pretty colors.  How about the boots? Either we kill off a bunch of cows, or we boil a bunch of dead dinosaurs and make a Texan rich.   One campfire isn’t going to do anywhere near as much environmental damage as the dye and industrial waste used to produce just ONE piece of polarfleece.  If we are serious enough to split hairs over campfires in the terms that we are using here ("all campfires are always bad and the people who make them are all selfish, we should all use stoves"), then I hope that we are serious enough to have educated ourselves as to the impact of the crap we cart around and the crap that we put on our pathetic, fragile, human bodies when out in the wild.  [BTW I mean ALL humans have fragile, pathetic bodies.  We don't fare well naked above the tropics or at altitude.]         In short- welcome to the real world folks- there is no such thing as zero impact.  This is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is reason to minimize impact, not to give up and merely enjoy other people’s video travelogues (using electricity and plastic, but I digress…).  Minimizing impact may sometimes mean choosing the lesser of two evils, and reasonable people may differ as to the best choice of those evils.  There are about 5 different ways to walk through a mountain meadow, any one of which will garner the ire of adherents of the other 4.         Educate yourself as to the choices, and make what, in your judgement, is the best choice for your situation.  When the choices are close, don’t make the call for somebody else.

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