Question:

I believe their was a case a couple of years ago concerning an Angel Flight. One of their aircraft had broken down while on a mission in a remote area. One of the other Angel Flight volunteer pilots flew a mechanic in his own aircraft to repair the downed aircraft. The FAA gave this pilot a violation for flying a "commercial" flight without the proper ratings. Their reasoning was since the Mechanic was being paid to repair the other aircraft that made it a commercial flight operation by definition and that it did not fall under the Angel Flight exclusion even though the pilot received no compensation and donated his time and aircraft expenses. Apparently a charter service at their home field had complained to the FAA because they felt they should have flown and been paid for the repair flight. This situation is similar and would probably end the same way. If the FAA doesn’t have it brought to their attention, they most likely won’t come looking and won’t really care. But, if someone like an airport manager, FBO, or charter service complains that their losing revenue, then the results will usually be in favor of the commercial operation and against the individual. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe that Rick Cremer once said there is no such thing, no such ruling, no record of action against a pilot for such a thing. Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

What is the compensation that he or anyone else is getting? Who hired him? I still don’t understand the problem. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think a reading from the FAR’s might clarify my earlier statement. Sec. 61.113   Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. The (b)(1) is what I referred to, it’s not clear that if you do it for free it’s ok or not.  I know that I have had FSDO people tell me it’s not ok, but then I know they don’t always get it right either.  They told me that the flight time you accumulate while doing this counts as payment, who knows, I certainly don’t! A normal procedure when dealing with regulations is that if it’s not stated as being unlawful then that means it’s lawful.  However, with the FAA you never can tell, they can make their own rules and interpretations up on the fly, so I’d always play safe and not do it. However, it’s your certificate and if you have a beef with the fee’s, then don’t pay them and let the FBO do what they want.  You could always clear it with your local FSDO and see what they say, and as for Angel Flights and commercial license.  It’s like CAP from what I understand, there are wavers in place for this type of operation. Let us know what the FSDO says, and then if the FBO isn’t charging others I’d tell him to go screw himself, assuming FSDO says a private is all you need. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

I still don’t understand what is particularly grey about this. What compensation is he or anyone else getting? And what does "commonality of purpose" have to do with it? Doesn’t the FAA have the burden of proof that a violation occurred? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire.<< It’s not a reg. As in many cases where the FAA takes administrative action the office of the Chief Councel makes a determination of what a reg means and what to do to a pilot. Especially in a grey area. This entire thread comes through here about every year. Searching the Google newsgroup archives has most of it. I have the case law copied somewhere. I just went through a bunch of old data, couldn’t find it but sure did clean out my desk. KG

Response:

Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could

find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire.<< It’s not a reg. As in many cases where the FAA takes administrative action the office of the Chief Councel makes a determination of what a reg means and what to do to a pilot. Especially in a grey area. This entire thread comes through here about every year. Searching the Google newsgroup archives has most of it. I have the case law copied somewhere. I just went through a bunch of old data, couldn’t find it but sure did clean out my desk. KG

Response:

 It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks.

Pussy.  F-350 Triton V-10 pulling a 33ft double slide fifth wheel. Going from San Antonio to Oshkosh this July… Russell Kent

Response:

Anyone really care?  You are doing your friend a favor and if you feel like it is worth it, ask him to chip in by paying the landing fee. The Feds aren’t going to be there looking over your should just waiting to catch you allowing someone else to pay your landing fee. You know most won’t even care. If you were recieving compensation for doing this that would be one thing but you’re not. Even then they would have to catch you. Let him pay the landing fee. If the Feds want to take away your license for something they will, period. There won’t be any stopping them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

My 250 and your 350 have the same frame, of course the engines are the same also.  You just have more lug nuts to take off when you get a flat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks. Pussy.  F-350 Triton V-10 pulling a 33ft double slide fifth wheel. Going from San Antonio to Oshkosh this July… Russell Kent

Response:

I think a reading from the FAR’s might clarify my earlier statement. Sec. 61.113   Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. The (b)(1) is what I referred to, it’s not clear that if you do it for free it’s ok or not.  I know that I have had FSDO people tell me it’s not ok, but then I know they don’t always get it right either.  They told me that the flight time you accumulate while doing this counts as payment, who knows, I certainly don’t! A normal procedure when dealing with regulations is that if it’s not stated as being unlawful then that means it’s lawful.  However, with the FAA you never can tell, they can make their own rules and interpretations up on the fly, so I’d always play safe and not do it. However, it’s your certificate and if you have a beef with the fee’s, then don’t pay them and let the FBO do what they want.  You could always clear it with your local FSDO and see what they say, and as for Angel Flights and commercial license.  It’s like CAP from what I understand, there are wavers in place for this type of operation. Let us know what the FSDO says, and then if the FBO isn’t charging others I’d tell him to go screw himself, assuming FSDO says a private is all you need. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Bullsquat. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend.

What I would ask is this, are you going to this site anyways, in other words, if he wasn’t along for the ride, would you still go? If not, what you’re doing requires a commercial.  That’s why you are getting the landing fee charge.  It’s common around here for a landing fee only on commercial ops, private is usually free in my neck of the woods. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

I agree with Jim….as I usually do, being a fellow Piper owner…anyway… I find this type of thread always amusing…you can’t do that because it is for ‘hire’ or in this case ‘no commonality of purpose’. With all due respect to Mr. Gruber and everyone else who feels that way…to quote my friend down south…BULLSQUAT! ALL my flights are for ME.  I fly for fun, not profit, I love to go different places.  So, your honor, when Mr. X asked me if I would take him to BFE, I said, sure, having never been there, I looked forward to going and checking it out.  I then decided with or without him, I was gonna explore BFE, and started to make my flight plans.  Just so happens since he was still wanting to go to BFE, and I was wanting to go someplace new, we both had a common purpose for the flight..we BOTH wanted to go to BFE equally….thus, I did not fly him to BFE, he came with me on yet another $100 hamburger run to someplace I had not yet been….BFE…and that your honor is my story….   Its true!  Bottom Line…..have fun and fly safe!!! Garrett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights. Bullsquat. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved. Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

Frank, you are going to be beaten bloody by gnats, on this topic… First, you are in a somewhat grey area of the regs… You say you are donating your time and gas and I accept that… Others, who are hostile to you or your friend for whatever reason, will say you are performing a commercial flight operation, air taxi, without the ratings, etc… My position is, that as long as you are not being paid in any fashion other than your own satisfaction, it is your airplane to fly wherever and whenever, ala. Angel Flights, etc… <still a free country… If you choose to arrange your schedule with your friend so he can accomplish his own purposes, that is between you two and it is still a Part 91 flight… I have a friend that I routinely fly with… My plans usually are contingent upon his needs, when we leave, when we come back, etc..  The Professional Hand Wringers (PHW) are all over this board, and the minutae artists among them would try to make the case that if I wait even five minutes for him, it is now magically an air taxi operation and I’m in violation, yadda, yadda, yadda, all over the place… Now the PHW will be all over you, so you, like Caesars wife, have to be above reproach that what you are doing is your own personal satisfaction, that you are not using the trips to  build hours towards a commercial rating, that the friend is not sending you and the wife on a missionary trip to Guatemala <or where ever, etc…  nada, nothing, sparkling clean… Also, the friend better not be hiring an air taxi when you are not available… That would be tough to explain away if the FAA got into it… The toughest part is the airport… Obviously, it is common knowledge that you are flying him in the performance of HIS work… From the airports point of view that constitutes a commercial activity originating at the airport, whether you get paid or not… The analogy here, is an employee of a corporation may fly the corporate plane on company business, without his being a commercial pilot… That does not protect him/them from paying the commercial operations fee when that plane, with the corporate logo all over it, lands and taxi’s in to the fbo… From  my perspective, have the friend pay the fee, since it is his activity that is commercial, not yours, or make an arrangement that you will buy the 20 gallons of gas on some fixed schedule, or otherwise get an agreement with her… <I’m actually against anything other than his paying the fee, because money appearing out of your hand in any fashion makes YOU look like a commercial operation Or find another airport and keep your mouth(s) shut <probably the best solution… I would advise against making a major fight out of it with the airport manager… She has the ultimate weapon of filing a complaint with the FAA that you are running a clandestine air taxi… Not good – not fun – lotsa grief…. Cheers  …  Denny

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.

Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me.<< That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not. Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight. Karl ATP LR-Jet CE-500 BE-300 15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

Response:

I think you are stretching the interpretation a bit.  If a friend suggests that the fishing is good in MT, and we fly there in my plane, it is not a commercial flight.  To be a commercial flight the person/entity providing the flight must receive something in return. I would agree with your interpretation if they were splitting costs. Mike MU-2   Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.   Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with   it to me.<<   That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.   Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight.   Karl   ATP   LR-Jet   CE-500   BE-300   15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. What I would ask is this, are you going to this site anyways, in other words, if he wasn’t along for the ride, would you still go? If not, what you’re doing requires a commercial.  That’s why you are getting the landing fee charge.  It’s common around here for a landing fee only on commercial ops, private is usually free in my neck of the woods.

Bullsquat. If one could not fly someone for free when there was no commonality of purpose, Angel Flight could not exist. As long as he does not receive any compensation, he should be OK. Given the nature of the radio station (Christian non-profit), Frank may be entitled to deduct his out of pocket costs (or even perhaps the wet local rate for a C150) from his taxes. The ‘landing charge’ seems more like an FBO ramp fee to me. -Greg

Response:

 It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim,    I kinda wondered about you until I saw your signature line… even though I knew you flew a Cherokee. You proved yourself with the Ford F-150 rating though.  Carry on!

Response:

I believe that Rick Cremer once said there is no such thing, no such ruling, no record of action against a pilot for such a thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

Jim,     I kinda wondered about you until I saw your signature line… even though I knew you flew a Cherokee. You proved yourself with the Ford F-150 rating though.  Carry on! — Joe Schneider Cherokee 8437R Advanced F-150 Supercab rating Numerous other spamcans not worth mentioning     Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.     Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with     it to me.<<     That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.     Snip Karl’s nonsense…     Karl     ATP     LR-Jet     CE-500     BE-300     15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot     Ooooh!     —     Jim Fisher     Cherokee 140     Warrior II     Cherokee 180     Cessna 172 Once (Under Duress)     Ford F-150

Response:

The toughest part is the airport… Obviously, it is common knowledge that you are flying him in the performance of HIS work… From the airports point of view that constitutes a commercial activity originating at the airport, whether you get paid or not…

That may or may not be the case here. Frank did not say that they are charging the landing fee because it’s a commercial operation. Sounds to me like they have decided to charge fees for everybody. The only place "commercial" came into it was the proposal to have his friend pay the landing fee. And that is where it gets sticky. If he does so, he’s contributing to the cost of the flight and the "commonality of purpose" becomes an issue (as others have said). George Patterson,  N3162Q.

Response:

Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

  Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.   Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with   it to me.<<   That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.   So another pilot and I are planning to fly to Mooselips, Nevada for a little fun.  He’s interested in brunettes.  I have a big thing (okay, maybe an average thing . . . okay, maybe . . . never mind) for blondes.     There’s no "commonality of purpose" since blondes and red heads are obviously from different planets.  So I have to foot the entire bill, right?   Okay, you have to go to a Troll convention in Californy.  I need to go there for a He-Man High Wing Hater convention.  I’m not sure that I’d wanna fly with you anyway but if we could, we couldn’t, right?   Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight.   So, can I kinda hint around at the idea until my friend gets the message about going?  Does this need to be in writing?  Will a handshake count as a "ruling" or do we have to slice our palms and share blood?   Incidentally, the word "commonality" is not mentioned in the FAR’s anywhere.  Yeah, I was suckered enough to look it up and am pretty sure I pselled it right.   Karl   ATP   LR-Jet   CE-500   BE-300   15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot   Ooooh!   —   Jim Fisher   Cherokee 140   Warrior II   Cherokee 180   Cessna 172 Once (Under Duress)   Ford F-150

Response:

That doesn’t agree with what I learned. Where in part 91 does it say that? Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.

Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me.<< That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not. Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight. Karl ATP LR-Jet CE-500 BE-300 15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

Response:

I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

Question:

But Ken, who makes those blanks? — ~~~~ The RodMaker (aka) The Shadow

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      if you had a chance to have a custom rod made, whos blank would you chose?     light spinning rod , 6 to 6 1/2 foot I don’t have experience with their spinning rod blanks, but in flyrods I’m impressed with Angler’s Workshop IM6 blanks, for the money. http://www.anglersworkshop.com — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

But Ken, who makes those blanks?

Does it matter ? It’s quality IM6 graphite, or at least their flyrods are, for a good price. I suppose if you were to tell me that they’re manufactured by starving slaves in a third world hovel and marketed by profiteering commies using the proceeds to finance the violent overthrow of the US government, I would probably expect them to be a lot cheaper , but I’ve done business with Angler’s Workshop in the past and have been quite happy. Of course, this assumes that the original poster can buy whatever blank he wants. Most custom builders that I know of insist on using their own blanks or charge a premium to build a rod on the customer’s blank. I use Angler’s Workshop ’cause I roll my own. YMMV — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Do you continue to pay retail prices for these blanks you buy? — ~~~~ The RodMaker (aka) The Shadow

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But Ken, who makes those blanks? Does it matter ? It’s quality IM6 graphite, or at least their flyrods are, for a good price. I suppose if you were to tell me that they’re manufactured by starving slaves in a third world hovel and marketed by profiteering commies using the proceeds to finance the violent overthrow of the US government, I would probably expect them to be a lot cheaper , but I’ve done business with Angler’s Workshop in the past and have been quite happy. Of course, this assumes that the original poster can buy whatever blank he wants. Most custom builders that I know of insist on using their own blanks or charge a premium to build a rod on the customer’s blank. I use Angler’s Workshop ’cause I roll my own. YMMV — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Do you continue to pay retail prices for these blanks you buy?

Sure. I’m just a do-it-yourselfer who buys blanks for personal use and the occasional birthday gift/Christmas present. I wouldn’t expect a quantity discount or a professional discount. I assume when you find a blank that you like that you buy several of the same blank at a time. I buy ‘em one at a time as I need them,and I hardly ever buy the same blank twice. Apples & oranges, RodMaker, you’re a pro who deserves his discount, I’m just an amateur hobbyist. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ok, One thing I should have made more clear concerning the Lamiglass (Perigee) series. What I meant was that Lamiglass designed these blanks for custom builders(already stated that) but what I forgot to mention was that Lamiglass themselves will not use these blanks to build rods for resale! Have you tried their fly rod blanks yet? — ~~~~ The RodMaker (aka) The Shadow

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you continue to pay retail prices for these blanks you buy? Sure. I’m just a do-it-yourselfer who buys blanks for personal use and the occasional birthday gift/Christmas present. I wouldn’t expect a quantity discount or a professional discount. I assume when you find a blank that you like that you buy several of the same blank at a time. I buy ‘em one at a time as I need them,and I hardly ever buy the same blank twice. Apples & oranges, RodMaker, you’re a pro who deserves his discount, I’m just an amateur hobbyist. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

… Have you tried their fly rod blanks yet?

No, I haven’t. Lamiglas doesn’t make a 10′ 7wt. blank. The next flyrod I build for bassin’ will be a 10′ 7wt. I like the 10′ length because I sit so close to the water in my canoe. I like a slow action flyrod, that’s why I’m so partial to IM6, and my current 10′ 7wt. is sloooooow. But while a slow action rod is great for some things, bassin’ ain’t one of them, I’d like a faster action for bassin’. I’ll probably build the new one on a Sage 71003SP, it’s a lot faster than my current rod but still slow enough to be comfortable for me. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

The next flyrod I build for bassin’ will be a 10′ 7wt. I like the 10′ length because I sit so close to the water in my canoe. I like a slow action flyrod, that’s why I’m so partial to IM6, and my current 10′ 7wt. is sloooooow. But while a slow action rod is great for some things, bassin’ ain’t one of them, I’d like a faster action for bassin’. I’ll probably build the new one on a Sage 71003SP, it’s a lot faster than my current rod but still slow enough to be comfortable for me. — Ken Fortenberry

Hey Ken, It’s been a while since I built a new rod and I’m getting the fever.  I never thought of using a 10 footer or a 7 weight, but reading your post makes me want to hear more from you on the idea.  What conditions do you fish in?  What bugs do you throw?  Etc? I do some fly fishing from kickboats and tubes.  I don’t generally make long casts because it’s so easy to simply position my craft so that I’m the right distance from what ever target I choose.  My current fly rod is a 20-year-old Cabela’s 9 foot 8 weight.  The reason I use this particular rod is that it is the rod I happen to own and carry in my truck.   Now I’m starting to fish more from a sit-on-top kayak which is much better suited for covering distances of water than either a tube or a kickboat.  But it’s not as easy to position and is far more susceptible to the wind.  For those times when it’s hard to hold a position near the shoreline, I can see the advantage of a longer rod, but I don’t understand the advantage of a slower rod, or of the 7 weight.  (As I write this, it just occurred to me that if you add a foot in length, your wrist and arm will very likely be tireder at the end of the day and that a lighter rod might well be a blessing — is that it?)  At any rate, I’d like to hear more about the advantages of a slow rod vs. a faster rod, etc. etc.   —– Family, Friends, Fishing Rob Storm http://www.stormsrestaurants.com

Response:

Hey Ken, It’s been a while since I built a new rod and I’m getting the fever.  I never thought of using a 10 footer or a 7 weight, but reading your post makes me want to hear more from you on the idea.  What conditions do you fish in?  What bugs do you throw?  Etc?

Hi Rob, My "home water" is a collection of reclaimed strip mine ponds and the tributaries of the Vermillion River in east central Illinois. http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=40.106&lon=-87.7429&size=s&s=50 Conditions here on the prairie are usually windy and I fish out of a canoe. I’ll throw everything in the box at ‘em, poppers, Dahlberg divers, Clouser minnows, bunny leeches, wooly buggers, deer hair frogs etc., everything but crayfish flies, I don’t like fishin’ down on the bottom and losing 6 flies an hour. The difference between 7 & 8 wt is personal preference, the 8wt is the classic weight for a bass flyrod but a 7wt has enough backbone. The 10′ length gets the rod tip up a bit off the water, which is an advantage when you’re sitting low in the water like in a canoe (or a kayak). It’s also an advantage on a stream for mending and rollcasting. … I’d like to hear more about the advantages of a slow rod vs. a faster rod, etc. etc.

To oversimplify and generalize, slow action rods are preferred for delicate presentation (dry flies), and chucking a lot of weight (split shot to get nymphs down). Fast action rods are preferred for powering through the wind and for tossing big wind eating flies like deer hair and bigger poppers. So for bass fishin’ most folks prefer a faster action flyrod. My current 10′ 7wt is a Thomas & Thomas XL, a slow action rod that’s ideal for steelhead but not so for bassin’. A slow 7/8 wt rod can double as a steelhead rod and a pike/carp rod while a fast 7/8 wt rod can double as a bass rod and a bonefish rod. That’s why I’d like to build another 10′ 7wt on a faster blank. Take care, — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Hi Ken, Thanks for the info.  I think the last slow fly rod I had was an old glass Herter rod I built in the early ’60s.  Maybe it’s time to try another.   I agree with you about fishing on the bottom.  It never appealed to me even though I know that with a sinking line and a floating bug you can show the fish a presentation they don’t often see.  When I fish a fly rod, I like the action to be right in front of me.  Flies or plugs, I like my lure to be on the surface whenever possible. You mention pike and carp.  I’ve caught the odd carp while casting small streamers for white bass, but I’ve never had the pleasure of fighting a pike on a fly rod.  Am planning a trip to Andrew Lake in Alberta for June 2001.  I ‘ll probably take along a 5 weight for grayling, but after reading your post, I might want to pack the 8 weight as well.   Thanks again for the info. —– Family, Friends, Fishing Rob Storm http://www.stormsrestaurants.com

Response:

     if you had a chance to have a custom rod made, whos blank would you chose?     light spinning rod , 6 to 6 1/2 foot

Response:

     if you had a chance to have a custom rod made, whos blank would you chose?     light spinning rod , 6 to 6 1/2 foot

Personally I would go with whatever RodMaker here in this group told me to. Good fishing, Richard L. LaFay  | (248) 753-6940 (work) 2887 Pontiac Court  | (248) 373-6865 (home) Auburn Hills, Michigan   48326 Ranger Boats, Lowrance Electronics, Berkley Trilene, Rippler, Bill Norman Lures, and Aqua-Vu underwater cameras. I use them because I think they’re the best!

Response:

     if you had a chance to have a custom rod made, whos blank would you chose?     light spinning rod , 6 to 6 1/2 foot

I don’t have experience with their spinning rod blanks, but in flyrods I’m impressed with Angler’s Workshop IM6 blanks, for the money. http://www.anglersworkshop.com — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

Hey Paul.  Finally took your advice and bought a kayak.  I think perhaps they should be outlawed.  You can get too close to tailing reds and it makes them too easy to catch. And, you can onto real muddy flats in seconds.  Before it took me forever in snowshoes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fishing for bass with a small popper I cast to the edge of a stand of cat tails. I got a little too close and thought I had snagged one of the reeds. When everything exploded I thought I had a giant bass. Then I saw the black tubular shape and realized what I had snagged. I was in a kick boat and began kciking toward a shore line (double time) as I stripped out line. In just a few seconds I was to the backing and still stripping. Standing on dry land I began to retrieve line to find that the snake had wrapped around a stump and I was able to break it off. I didn’t care to land it and wasn’t a bit curious about what kind of snake it was.

Response:

….spat on by a squirrel….

Thanks Herman, I just spewed a nice Cabernet all over the keyboard…….hm…….come to think of it, that’s not all that funny after all….been there.

Response:

and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…

        what is this?  a very short fill in the blank nature exam?         hehehehehehe…         wayno

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…    what is this?  a very short fill in the blank nature exam?    hehehehehehe…

Wondered if you’d catch that (but I was betting you would<g). It’s for the gator’s dog to play with while you and the gator discuss dance steps – shufflin’ like a gator as it were. — Charlie…

Response:

and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…         what is this?  a very short fill in the blank nature exam?         hehehehehehe…         wayno

speakin’ of gatahs…. go gatahs! (hehehehehhe..) obroff: watermelon pond, located about 20 miles west of g’ville, has it’s name due to the farmland dedicated to growing melons on the rolling hills which surround this placid body of water. the melon crop provides the local farmers with some hard earned money (try pickin and loading watermelons in a hot Florida sun someday) and the fertilizer eventually makes its way to the lake which promotes good aquatic flora, which in turn promotes good aquatic fauna, which in turn attracts the likes of me. as is the case with most lakes located in the karst topographical zone of north central Florida, it is for the most part a hard packed white sand bottom lake which makes it ideal for wading in pursuit of largemouths. as is the case of most Florida lakes, if not all, it has its fair share of reptillean critters, and i ain’t speaking of crackers. amidst the pads and maidencane is where the big bass lay, waiting for the misguided bluegill, shiner, frog, bird, or snake to meander by. one day, while i was retrieving my streamer i snagged some hydrilla. i started stripping it in real fast and this now foot long plus streamer is streaking across the surface. a bass decides it must be a snake and hooks hisself on this mess. as i was in mid-strip, the bass is skimming towards me on the surface. one second i was fishing a streamer, the next i was fishing a big weedy streamer, the following i was fishing an even larger fishy streamer, and the next second i was hooked into about a 5 foot gatah. well, he had my "streamer" in his mouth anyway. cool. way cool. shit. i’m standing in about three feet of water and i’m playing a gator about 30 feet away from me. he does a roll and heads under water. the line is being pulled off my reel so at least he’s heading away, unless of course he’s making a big circle, which by the way he was. he surfaced with much aplomb about 10 feet from me with that big ole silly gatah grin only broken by my dead bass hanging out the side of his mouth like a cherished stogie. with a swish of his tail he’s on me. surreal moments live forever. i still feel like i was a ‘nole stunt man in one of weismuller’s tarzan zanies wrasslin a gator underwater. the fly, a flashy buggah streamer, dubbed a "wallymelon" by my fishing companion, is still in my possession. this is how i earned the moniker…. –wally gatah

Response:

– shufflin’ like a gator as it were. — Charlie…

        oh, you mean that little number waldo does while explaining his late evening whereabouts to the lovely marie?  now i understand. wayno (a beach boogie man)

Response:

…. with a swish of his tail he’s on me. surreal moments live forever. …

Great story. Did you live ? — Ken Fortenberry- right leg’s getting long, pull the left next time

Response:

Great story. Did you live ?

only in spirit(s)….. oh yeah, some, not all mind you, of that tale is fictional wayno, you drsob. you fishin hazel this week? –wally gatah

Response:

…. with a swish of his tail he’s on me. surreal moments live forever. … Great story. Did you live ? —

Who cares – Did it take you into the backing? Peter

Response:

Great story. Did you live ? only in spirit(s)….. oh yeah, some, not all mind you, of that tale is fictional wayno, you drsob. you fishin hazel this week? –wally gatah

        yessiree bob, although the party has been reduced to just me and ol dash riprock.  why don’t you come up and see us sometime.         no shit, we would love to have you.  will be in a posh cabin from tuesday night until saturday morning. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Food for nightmares.. A friend of mine fished the coastal waters around Florida. Pictures of alligators. BIG stingrays all around your ankles.

That’s why you should always shuffle your feet to scare the rays… and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…

Response:

Food for nightmares.. A friend of mine fished the coastal waters around Florida. Pictures of alligators. BIG stingrays all around your ankles. Now you’ve done it: tonight I’ll combine the two and dream about bellyboating, hooking a big alligator in the nostrils, paddling back to see a snake dangling from the very tree I’m aiming for. Herman Fishing for bass with a small popper I cast to the edge of a stand of cat tails. I got a little too close and thought I had snagged one of the reeds. When everything exploded I thought I had a giant bass. Then I saw the black tubular shape and realized what I had snagged. I was in a kick boat and began kciking toward a shore line (double time) as I stripped out line. In just a few seconds I was to the backing and still stripping. Standing on dry land I began to retrieve line to find that the snake had wrapped around a stump and I was able to break it off. I didn’t care to land it and wasn’t a bit curious about what kind of snake it was.

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Yeah, right… scare the rays.. I’m Dutch, remember? The worst thing that can happen over here  while fishing, naturewise that is, is being spat on by a squirrel. Being circled by stingrays is already way out of that league. Herman, who wouldn’t put a toe in that water.

Yeah, but a lot of the ex-colonies have some interesting critters in the water<g. I don’t much care for gators, but bonefish flats are covered with rays. — Charlie…

Response:

And that’s why one must always wear leaded wading boots when bonefishin’. Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, right… scare the rays.. I’m Dutch, remember? The worst thing that can happen over here  while fishing, naturewise that is, is being spat on by a squirrel. Being circled by stingrays is already way out of that league. Herman, who wouldn’t put a toe in that water. Yeah, but a lot of the ex-colonies have some interesting critters in the water<g. I don’t much care for gators, but bonefish flats are covered with rays. — Charlie…

Response:

Yeah, right… scare the rays.. I’m Dutch, remember? The worst thing that can happen over here  while fishing, naturewise that is, is being spat on by a squirrel. Being circled by stingrays is already way out of that league. Herman, who wouldn’t put a toe in that water. Food for nightmares.. A friend of mine fished the coastal waters around Florida. Pictures of alligators. BIG stingrays all around your ankles. That’s why you should always shuffle your feet to scare the rays… and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Fishing for bass with a small popper I cast to the edge of a stand of cat tails. I got a little too close and thought I had snagged one of the reeds. When everything exploded I thought I had a giant bass. Then I saw the black tubular shape and realized what I had snagged. I was in a kick boat and began kciking toward a shore line (double time) as I stripped out line. In just a few seconds I was to the backing and still stripping. Standing on dry land I began to retrieve line to find that the snake had wrapped around a stump and I was able to break it off. I didn’t care to land it and wasn’t a bit curious about what kind of snake it was.

Response:

Question:

I’d like to find a nice, animated loop of fly-fishing or trout-feeding for a screensaver on Windows.  I don’t want just a succession of fish pictures, or pretty mountain scenes. I once saw a cool cartoon of a guy casting into a river and a fish jumping over his line, but I was told it was made for  DOS machines and couldn’t be used on Windows.   Any suggestions?

Response:

I’d like to find a nice, animated loop of fly-fishing or trout-feeding for a screensaver on Windows.  I don’t want just a succession of fish pictures, or pretty mountain scenes. I once saw a cool cartoon of a guy casting into a river and a fish jumping over his line, but I was told it was made for  DOS machines and couldn’t be used on Windows.   Any suggestions?

No suggestions, but if you find one can you pass the info on?  I would like something like that as well. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

The Sierra game, Trophy Rivers has a free download at their site that I enjoy.  I don’t play the game that much but I love the screen saver. http://www.sierra.com/sierrasports/outdoor/trivers/     Frank Reid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to find a nice, animated loop of fly-fishing or trout-feeding for a screensaver on Windows.  I don’t want just a succession of fish pictures, or pretty mountain scenes. I once saw a cool cartoon of a guy casting into a river and a fish jumping over his line, but I was told it was made for  DOS machines and couldn’t be used on Windows. Any suggestions?

Response:

I’ll post my emergent mayfly SS on alt.binaries.pictures.fishing. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

Response:

The best is Webshots at www.webshots.com. You can select from many different scenes and best of all it is free. Enjoy — Philippians 2:13, this is our get-go to serve you.      www.asapshirt.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to find a nice, animated loop of fly-fishing or trout-feeding for a screensaver on Windows.  I don’t want just a succession of fish pictures, or pretty mountain scenes. I once saw a cool cartoon of a guy casting into a river and a fish jumping over his line, but I was told it was made for DOS machines and couldn’t be used on Windows. Any suggestions?

Response:

Question:

Does anyone have any information on the actual fishing conditions (hatch, water temp. water level…) for the rivers in the northern part of New York state (Chateauguay, Salmon Marbel, Ausable, Saranac, Chasy…..). Or better phone numbers where I could get these information on a daily basis.

Response:

Does anyone have any information on the actual fishing conditions (hatch, water temp. water level…) for the rivers in the northern part of New York state (Chateauguay, Salmon Marbel, Ausable, Saranac, Chasy…..). Or better phone numbers where I could get these information on a daily basis.

Check out Francis Betters’ site… I think it’s called the Adirondack Fisherman, or something like that.  Do a search with his name and fly fishing.  I believe he posts a hatch report for the Ausable, and will give really up-to-date info by phone. Bob Scott

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey all you other outdoorsy women adventurers: Women’s Wire is currently featuring a section called "New You". On it you can check out 20 great getaways for the following activities (these places are for beginners also – you don’t have to be a pro): fly-fishing,  backpacking, boardsailing, bouldering, canoeing, hiking, mountain biking, road biking, rock climbing, scuba diving and sea kayaking If you are interested, check it out: http://www.women.com/body/newyou/

Response:

Hey all you other outdoorsy women adventurers: Women’s Wire is currently featuring a section called "New You". On it you can check out 20 great getaways for the following activities (these places are for beginners also – you don’t have to be a pro): fly-fishing,  backpacking, boardsailing, bouldering, canoeing, hiking, mountain biking, road biking, rock climbing, scuba diving and sea kayaking If you are interested, check it out: http://www.women.com/body/newyou/

Response:

Question:

The Beaverkill is in need of urgent help from those who Love to Fly Fish. I went last year and the fishing was lousy but I can see why it is the most notorious fishery in the world. The Orvis company and the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation will match your donation to the Local Trout Unlimited for this effort. IT IS A 2 TO 1 MATCH If you donate $10.00 dollars they make it $30.00 Not Bad Make all checks  Payable to: Trout Unlimited/Beaverkill Restoration Project Mail to Orvis Route 7A Manchester, VT 05254 Department RS Thanks for the support of our waterways Bob Burbage

Response:

The Beaverkill is in need of urgent help from those who Love to Fly Fish. I went last year and the fishing was lousy but I can see why it is the most notorious fishery in the world.

A lot of this had to do with the damage done from the big freeze-thaw last January.  That was merely nature doing it’s work and it’s likely that nature will take it’s course and the fishery will improve. The Orvis company and the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation will match your donation to the Local Trout Unlimited for this effort.

Details snipped.  Since I consider the Beaverkill one of my near home waters this article had some interest. However, before sending in a check I’d like to know exactly how this money is going to be spent.  

Response:

I wish it was merely nature doing it’s work last January. However, after the flood, the NY DEC indiscriminately handed out hundreds of permits to landowners for "stream improvements" to "correct" the flood damage to many streams in the Catskills, including many that feed the Beaverkill and both branches of the Delaware River. These ignorant people bulldozed many of these important feeders and did infinitely more damage than the flood. The DEC was totally negligent in not monitoring much of this destruction. Nature will take it’s course, but I’m not convinced that the fishery will improve for many years to come. For more info on this, see the latest issue of Trout Unlimited’s Trout magazine. That article is enough to make a grown man cry.  

Response:

Question:

Can someone email to me the last name of Lynn, the owner of Last Chance Outfitters, in Idaho on the Henry’s Fork? Thanks. Ed

Response:

Can someone email to me the last name of Lynn, the owner of Last Chance Outfitters, in Idaho on the Henry’s Fork? Thanks. Ed

Hi Ed I think you must be referring to Lynn Sessions. In the very resent past Hyde Drift Boat Guide Service bought the LC Outfitters from Lynn and he went to work for them. You can reach him at Hyde Drift Boat Fly Shop in Idaho Falls at 208-529-4343. I saw him there when Gretchen and I stopped for a visit on our return trip from the Marriott Show in Calif. a couple of weeks ago. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

Question:

I’m new.  I’ll get that out of the way now.  I’ve been working on my cast all winter and think it’s passable – we’ll see once I get on the water.   But, my biggest question is how to know what type of fly to use.  Dry or a nymph?  If a nymph, should it be floating or sinking?  Can anyone recommend a good book on the matter?  I’ve seen lots of books full of fly patterns but that’s about it.  I’d like any info you can give on matching the hatch and choosing the fly.                   Thanks,                 T O D D . . .

Response:

: : I’m new.  I’ll get that out of the way now.  I’ve been working on my cast : : all winter and think it’s passable – we’ll see once I get on the water.   : : But, my biggest question is how to know what type of fly to use.  Dry or : : a nymph?  If a nymph, should it be floating or sinking?  Can anyone : : recommend a good book on the matter?  I’ve seen lots of books full of fly : : patterns but that’s about it.  I’d like any info you can give on matching : : the hatch and choosing the fly.   : Everyone has their own favorites, but you can really get by with a very : few different flies most of the time. Get a copy of Datus Propter’s : "What the Trout Said" for a nice, well thought out approach to : simplified fly selection. Or listen to me As for what to use, the beginning rule of thumb is (I think): if you see fish rising (especially if they rise and leave a bubble in the middle of the rise form) use a dry fly; if you don’t, use a nymph. Most of the feeding fish do is on the bottom on nymphs.  The exceptions are usually visible. One exception to this "rule": When it’s hot, and you’re fishing a stream with brush or grass overhanging it, use hoppers and ants.  These can be fished either wet OR dry, and work both ways! As for favorite flys, mine are:         pattern                                 sizes wooly worm (black with grizzly hackle)          4,6,8,10 soft hackle (I like green floss bodies)         10,12,14,16 elk hair caddis                                 6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22 adams                                           10,12,14,16,18,20 black ants                                      10,12,14,16,18,20 If I could only pick 4, I’d leave out the soft hackle.  I tie up these patterns in these sizes.  For the caddis pattern, I use different colored bodies and tie some palmered and some with just dry-fly style hackles.  I have never left the stream without catching fish (provided the water was over 50 degrees). This collection of flys is so versatile it’s amazing.  My single favorite is the caddis. Have fun! — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster

Response:

: 3 Words: "Ask the locals" : Frankie Yeah, but they always lie.    :-) –jim

Response:

Thanks to all for the great advice.  I’m looking forward to using some of the patterns when the time comes.                 T O D D . . .

Response:

I have one other bit of advice to add to the guys who said "ask the locals", that is to use the KISS rule of thumb;  keep it simple stupid (no disrespect intended. As a guide in Montana ans Alaska for over 15 year now, the KISS rule usually works for me.  Everything else is either fun or a pain in the ass – depending on your personal tastes.  There are a few patterns that have worked for me from Argentina to AK though. Elk Hair Caddis, Wulff patterns, lightly dressed Blue Dun patterns, small, simple midge patterns like the Griffiths Gant or the Bi-Visible, Pheasant Tail Nymph, Wooley Bugger, Egg Sucking Leach (pretty huh?), Bitch Creek, and olive and brown Damsel and Dragon Fly nymph patterns. Top drys-Caddis and Gnats, sub surface-small Wooley Buggers and Bitch Creeks. I saw some mis-info in the other noter to you about such things as buble rises and – well- it would take too long, but there is a video by, I think 3M with a guy named Gary Borger that explains the methodology of what to trout fish and when better than any other.

Response:

I would like to suggest reading the late Charles E. Brooks’ book THE TROUT AND THE STREAM as a good introduction to fly selection.  You might also Fly Fisherman magazine helpful.

Response:

I posted my favorite three flies a few times (elk hair caddis, adams, wooly worm, black ant—I can’t count very well).  On thinking about it, I’ve decided that "what fly should I use?" is the wrong question.  "How should I fish my fly?" is the right one. I like the above flies because you can fish them many, many different ways.  On a dead drift, an elk-hair passes for a mayfly, with twitches it looks like an emerger, skittered it looks like a caddis, plopped down and retrieved in short jerks it looks like a hopper, wet it looks like a minnow, or a crawdad, or god only knows what.  Very versatile.  The same is true with the others (with the possible exception of the adams, which is why I would omit it if I could only have three patterns). The important things are: 1. action 2. size 3. color 4. pattern at least that’s true in my experience under most conditions.  Note that pattern is last. — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster

Response:

I fished the West branch of the Penobscot in Maine, way up by the dam, and I drew blanks all week despite the huge stoneflies and loads of caddis. This was the last week of the season. On the final day, I slammed together a primitive version of the Madame X, drawing on my memories of fishing small ponds for big bluegills. I started catching fish. Maybe the landlocked salmon thought it was a drowning stonefly in the rapids. But whatever was in their pea-sized brains, it made a barren week worthwhile. LeDun

Response:

It’s a great question—but not an easy answer. find out what the basic flys are in your area;adams, royal wulff, any dun (PMD,BWO etc) or in a nymph; hare’s ear, Pheasant tail, prince.  Then go down to your local fishing store and ask the guy (or gal) what else is working. Don’t forget to ask what size. He will Give you both Drys and nymphs and If he really wants to sell flys a emerger or two. Now head down to your fishing hole and instead of getting all worked up about catching big old fish sit down, and watch the water.  If you are lucky enough, you will see a rise. Try to figure out what the fish are eating.  Try and get as close as you can with what you have.  Just like life – think about your choices. If what the guy at the fishing store was wrong, try your basics. If that doesn’t work get a beer or spring for a guide. As for matching the hatch.  It use to be that the ORVIS CATALOG was great to learn the flys but now that they are selling cars Try Dan BAILEYS in LIVINGSTON MT. ORVIS does fhave a little book that might work for you- tight lines

Response:

3 Words: "Ask the locals" Frankie

The Madame X is a productive fly on trout to sunfish across the country.   Wyatt

Response:

Question:

Here’s one for you: . . . I asked where he put his pole. He said:  "I dropped it in the lake" . . .

What I’ve done with my 5yo. girl is to tie a string on the pole with a loop in it, have her put her hand through the loop and make sure the loop is snug on her wrist.  This allow the pole to be still attached even if dropped. Rey

Response:

: Well, it’s more wierd than humorous, and I didn’t think it was very funny : at the time, which was yesterday afternoon.  If my typing is lousy it’s : because I’ve got a big bandage on my left index finger.  You’ll soon see why. : : : The hook was imbedded good, down to the bone.  There was no pushing it : through, and anyway, I didn’t have any pliers to bend down or cut off the : barb.  So there I sat, shoeless, blood running down my hand, a 3" Rapala : lure dangling from my hand, half a mile from my car.  I managed somehow to : get the hook off the plit ring.  Then I put on my shoes (not so easy) got : my stuff together, walked to the car, and drove to a local medical : facility where the nurse practicioner managed to yank that hook from my : hand (ouch!).   : : Meanwhile she told me a story that made me feel lucky.  Just after she had : started practicing whe got a call telling her that a young girl was on her : way with a fish in her foot.  Apparently she had stepped on a small fish : and the bony fins had stuck well up into the ball of her foot and acted : like a barbed hook.  Her father had tried holding down the fish his foot : and pulling on her leg with his hands, but it wouldn’t budge.  Then he : tried putting her foot in the water so the fish could swim free, but it : couldn’t.  The fish apparently was still alive and flopping around when : they arrived at the clinic.  They had to slice open the little girls foot : to remove the fish. : : I left that clinic counting my blessings. : :  Jim : : : Worse thing I ever saw like this was at my vets.  A man came in literally : dragging a big black lab.  I couldn’t understand why he was treating the : dog like that until I saw the big rapala with one hook firmly imbedded in : the poor dog’s nose and the other hook imbedded in the man’s arm.  The : vet sedated the dog and removed both hooks.  I still shiver when I think : about that.         I’m not so sure you should have posted that as Humorous Stories. I have an inch  long scar on the palm of my left hand from much the same sort of story.         I got a 20+ lb. ling cod in the boat. He was hooked on a diamond jig with a 6/0  treble hook. He was twisted up in the net, and as I tried to get him out, he thrashed  around hard, driving one of the exposed hooks through the palm of my hand. I had a  fishing buddy with me, and he knelt on the head of the fish until I could work the lure  free with the needle nosed pliers. I had no cutters, and the hook was held on with a  soldered ring, so I couldn’t free it from the lure. We had to push the hook back through  and cut the palm through to the hooh shank to free me of the lure. All this while bouncing  around in six foot seas. Needless to say, the pain and bleeding were considerable. The  wound later took six stitches to close.         It was a painful leason. I use a gaff now on big fish. I use a wood bat to stop  them from thrashing around. I keep a pair of heavy duty diagonal cutters on my boat.  And several Tylonal & codine in the first aid kit.

Response:

Well, it’s more wierd than humorous, and I didn’t think it was very funny at the time, which was yesterday afternoon.  If my typing is lousy it’s because I’ve got a big bandage on my left index finger.  You’ll soon see why. Wednesday evening I stopped in to a local sporting goods store and found that they were selling out they’re fishing gear–everything was half-off. I picked up 5 Original Rapala’s, a cheap Browning fly rod and a nice baitcasting combo including a Diawa EL 2 reel and a Browning graphite rod, all for $92 including tax (oh yeah, I also got 5 Hopkins spoons in various sizes).  So all day yesterday I was aching to try some of this stuff out. I finished everything I had to at work and headed down to a spot at a nearby lake just to cast a few times and get a feel for my new combo.  I hooked up one of the Rapala’s (#11 original floater) and cast it a few times, reeling in quckly and casting again, trying to find a good setting on the magnetic anti-backlash mexhanism.  I was reeling in fast enough that the lure was diving down a foot or two, and once it got stuck on a tree limb I couldn’t see through the murky water.  So I took off my shoes and waded out to recover the lure.  I got it, left my shoes off and cast again a few times–still just casting and reeling in, just to get some casting practice.  Then I felt the lure get hung up again, and I started to walk out to retrieve it when the tree limb started to move.  I set the hook and a tidal wave erupted from the water.  I fought that fish for every bit of ten minutes and finally landed a big carp.  It was every bit of 20 pounds, probably quite a bit more.  With some effort I dragged it up on shore, a good bodies length from the water (which is a long way), put down the reel and started to stagger up the rocky shoreline, shoeless, to get pliers out of my tackle box (initial attempts at removing the treble hook had failed.  He was lip-hooked, but those were serious lips. Two of the barbs were in his lip, and the third was trwisted into a cross).  I got the tackle box, walked back to where the fish was.  When he saw me he made two big lunges and was in the water, still hooked.  I barely managed to snag the rod.  I fought him again (I’d've let him go, but I wasn’t gonna let him have my new Rapala) for about 5 minutes, landed him again, opened my tackle box and found that my pliers were missing.  I’d apparently left them out when I cleaned my tackle box the last time.  So I got out a rag, held the fish firmly with one hand and worked on the hook with the other. I wasn’t having much luck, so I let go of the fish and started working with both hands.  After about a minute the fish gave a massive flip, imbedded another hook in my left index finger, and used that leverage to do in half a second what I’d been unable to do in the previous 15 minutes–get the hook out of his lip.  In the meantime he had straightened out the hook in my finger.  The fish gave a lunge and was gone.  He’d gotten me back. The hook was imbedded good, down to the bone.  There was no pushing it through, and anyway, I didn’t have any pliers to bend down or cut off the barb.  So there I sat, shoeless, blood running down my hand, a 3" Rapala lure dangling from my hand, half a mile from my car.  I managed somehow to get the hook off the plit ring.  Then I put on my shoes (not so easy) got my stuff together, walked to the car, and drove to a local medical facility where the nurse practicioner managed to yank that hook from my hand (ouch!).   Meanwhile she told me a story that made me feel lucky.  Just after she had started practicing whe got a call telling her that a young girl was on her way with a fish in her foot.  Apparently she had stepped on a small fish and the bony fins had stuck well up into the ball of her foot and acted like a barbed hook.  Her father had tried holding down the fish his foot and pulling on her leg with his hands, but it wouldn’t budge.  Then he tried putting her foot in the water so the fish could swim free, but it couldn’t.  The fish apparently was still alive and flopping around when they arrived at the clinic.  They had to slice open the little girls foot to remove the fish. I left that clinic counting my blessings.         Jim By the way: my Audobon Field Guide says that the classification of fish that included carp and minnows (I can’t remember what it’s called) is charactized by "the absence of teeth in the jaw".  This fish definitely had some rather nasty looking teeth.  Skinny, about an eighth inch long. But I’d say it had to be a carp, since it was huge and had those characteristic barbels on its jaw.  What gives?

Response:

: What I’ve done with my 5yo. girl is to tie a string on the pole : with a loop in it, have her put her hand through the loop and make : sure the loop is snug on her wrist.  This allow the pole to be : still attached even if dropped. : Rey All of this talk reminded me of one of my earliest memories.  We were living in Florida, which means I was no older than 4.  We were fishing on my father’s boat, and I was using a zebco or something, and I don’t know what we were after, but we were offshore.  I was in the front of the boat, and I had a strike.  Unfortunately, the drag was set real tight.  The fish dove down, and I started screaming for my father.  I held onto that rod for as long as I could, but the fish would definitely have won the tug-o-war.  I let the rod go just as my father made it up- he almost caught it.  I was so sad about it, and it must have made an impression if I remembered it all these years.           Moral of the story:  Just hope your 5 year old girl doesn’t tie into a 10 pound catfish or something.  Or make sure the drag is set right. -Jeff

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, it’s more wierd than humorous, and I didn’t think it was very funny at the time, which was yesterday afternoon.  If my typing is lousy it’s because I’ve got a big bandage on my left index finger.  You’ll soon see why. The hook was imbedded good, down to the bone.  There was no pushing it through, and anyway, I didn’t have any pliers to bend down or cut off the barb.  So there I sat, shoeless, blood running down my hand, a 3" Rapala lure dangling from my hand, half a mile from my car.  I managed somehow to get the hook off the plit ring.  Then I put on my shoes (not so easy) got my stuff together, walked to the car, and drove to a local medical facility where the nurse practicioner managed to yank that hook from my hand (ouch!).   Meanwhile she told me a story that made me feel lucky.  Just after she had started practicing whe got a call telling her that a young girl was on her way with a fish in her foot.  Apparently she had stepped on a small fish and the bony fins had stuck well up into the ball of her foot and acted like a barbed hook.  Her father had tried holding down the fish his foot and pulling on her leg with his hands, but it wouldn’t budge.  Then he tried putting her foot in the water so the fish could swim free, but it couldn’t.  The fish apparently was still alive and flopping around when they arrived at the clinic.  They had to slice open the little girls foot to remove the fish. I left that clinic counting my blessings.    Jim

Worse thing I ever saw like this was at my vets.  A man came in literally dragging a big black lab.  I couldn’t understand why he was treating the dog like that until I saw the big rapala with one hook firmly imbedded in the poor dog’s nose and the other hook imbedded in the man’s arm.  The vet sedated the dog and removed both hooks.  I still shiver when I think about that.

Response:

  Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing  RE: Humorous fishing stories.  Here’s one for you:  This happened about three years ago-my little boy who was 4 at the time  was turning into quite the "fishing fool".  Life revolved around  fishing, and thankfully, still does.  Anyway, we were camping at a  secluded lake here in western Montana, and decided to go fishing one  evening after dark in the canoe.  We set up a couple of poles with  worms and a small marshmallow for floatation and a slip sinker.  We  went out in the bay about 50-60 yds from the 3-4 campsites  available-which were all full.  It wasn’t long before the silence and  serenity was broken several times by "I got one!!!".  I’d slide forward  in the canoe to help Chris check his line, only to find nothing there.  We’d then go through the procedure of reeling in, checking bait (which  was still there), and lowering it back down.  This probably continued  for about 20-25 minutes, and I was getting a little tempermental about  the whole program, and was ready to head back in.  Meanwhile, everyone  on shore could hear what was going on, and I’d hear laughter as he  hollared, followed by my explanations of how to tell whether a fish is  really biting (patience level was growing thin).  As I was ready to start paddling back to shore, once again he hollared  "I got one".   "Sure", I said.  "Just reel in, and we’ll try again in the morning".   "No, I REALLY have one this time".  (Laughter from shore).   "Christopher, you keep saying that, and we reel in, and your worm is   still on there", I said not so patiently.   About that time, I could see the outline of his Zebco rod and reel   silhouetted in the campfires from shore.  Sure enough, it was doubled   over and jerking frantically.   "Oh, sh__, you’ve got a fish on!", I exclaimed, as I clamored forward   to help him steady his pole.    After a five minute fight, Chris reeled in a 5 lb. bull trout.  As    the cheers subsided from shore, and I paddled in, Chris turned to me    and said "See, dad, when I say I got a fish on, I MEAN I got a fish    on.  You should listen to me".    Laughter erupted from the camps. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

Response:

Here’s one for you: I took my 8 and 5 year olds out perch fishing last summer. Well you know what kind of fishing that is for me, but I don’t mind, its getting out with the boys.  I was in the middle of a couple of hours of taking off fish and baiting hooks, and was working with my 8 year old for a minute.  When I finished I looked back around at Paul my 5 year old and noticed he was just sitting there quietly.  All you people with kids know what a quiet kid means…… I asked him what was the matter and he said: "nothin" I then noticed he wasn’t holding his snoopy pole any more and asked why he wasn’t fishing.  he said: "don’t want to anymore" I asked where he put his pole. He said:  "I dropped it in the lake" His face went heavy and I asked why didn’t he tell me and he replied: "didn’t want to get in trouble." I didn’t know if I should laugh or cry.  Felt sorry for him and explained how fishermen ocassionally loose things, Not to worry and I rigged him up another rod, and back to fishing he went. we tried to fish out his pole, but the current had taken it away. another day, another hard lesson in the game of life for a 5 year old! Bob

Response: