Question:

 I’ll let you turn on the furnace, Peter. Dave

Damn right ’cause I’m not letting you cuddle up to me.   I would very much like to do the Kennebec, the more I hear about it, the more intrigued I am.  Sounds like you had a wonderful time. BTW, I’ve run into John Valk twice since the float trip and he keeps saying nice things about you.  You made an impression.  :) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter writes: BTW, I’ve run into John Valk twice since the float trip and he keeps saying nice things about you.  You made an impression.  :)

He loves me because I can cast over my left shoulder in the rear and the front of the boat, thereby avoiding his ears.  d;o) Can’t wait for May……  I think I will stay with my 8 weight and buy a new Lamson large arbor.  From him, of course. And, you will love the Kennebec.  It is meant for streamer fishing. Dave

Response:

That fish wasn’t nothin but icing on the cake of a fine trip…… john

Response:

<snipped good TR This morning I opted not to fish because it was cold.

I had the same problem this morning. I woke up early to go and decided my bed was *really* nice and warm. Damn this New England/Winter thing! — TL, Tim

Response:

This morning I opted not to fish because it was cold. I had the same problem this morning. I woke up early to go and decided my bed was *really* nice and warm. Damn this New England/Winter thing! — TL, Tim

Wuss.  Went ‘fishing for science’ today on a little gem of an urban pond (in Dave LaCourse’s old neighborhood).  We were helping a water quality monitoring program by harvesting some fish for analysis (the fish are being FedExed to UMaine for heavy metal and PCB testing).  I caught a lot of bluegills on slowly retrieved Zug Bugs and picked up two really nice chain pickerel (over 16" apiece, fat and feisty) and a couple of ‘keeper’ sized bass on unweighted wooly buggers on my 4 wt.  Jim picked up several calicos (black crappie) on a trolled damsel nymph.  It was really nice once the sun came out.

Response:

Great report Dave where on the Kennebec do you go what town that is. They had a TU program a few months ago on the Kennebec River they were catch browns and bows.                    Handyman Mike           Standing in a river waving a stick

Response:

This morning I opted not to fish because it was cold. I had the same problem this morning. I woke up early to go and decided my bed was *really* nice and warm. Damn this New England/Winter thing! — TL, Tim Wuss.

Yeah, I know. I did finally get out at around 10:00 when it warmed up a bit. Caught a *big* brown with two extra flies and some tippet attached. Hopefully, he’s swimming more comfortably now. My hands got very cold once I started fishing. Are there any special or modified gloves you folk would recommend? — TL, Tim

Response:

Jo and I arrived at The East Outlet, Kennebec River, about 2:30 on Friday afternoon.  It was  a beautiful late fall day, with promises of colder temperatures.

    ahh, louie my friend, pretty work.  what a life! yfitons wayno

Response:

Jo and I arrived at The East Outlet, Kennebec River, about 2:30 on Friday afternoon.  It was  a beautiful late fall day, with promises of colder temperatures.   I parked the rv within yards of the river, leveled it, and while Jo unpacked and made camp, I went fishing.   I fished the nice run at the old put-in spot ("stairs"), and fished up-stream for about an hour.  With two hits, two fish on, and none landed, but my hands freezing, I called it quits and returned to the warmth of the rv.  The river was running at 1700 cfs, just a little more than I like it, but the water was cold and the salmon had come up-river from Indian Pond.   After a dinner of grilled hamburgers and home-made baked beans (lots of brown sugar, maple syrup, and a little onion), we settled in and watched a movie. The wind had come up and the falling leaves on the roof made for a wonderful feeling.  We were warm, well fed, entertained, and the sounds of the river and wind added to the ambiance.  We could have used the furnace all night.  We should have used the furnace all night.  Instead, Jo cracked one of the bedroom windows about a half inch, and we settled in for sleep without heat.   Well, it was a two dog night and we only had one, Henry.  Jo got up about midnight and added a down comforter to our 3 blanket pile.  That’s when Henry joined us and promptly settled in under the comforter.  The wind got stronger and the rain started about 1 a.m., beating a cacophony of rhythm on the flat roof.  It was great sleeping. When I awoke, the rain had ended and it was cold.  After a hot breakfast I headed down-stream to my favorite run.   I tied on one of Bruiser’s little nymphs (size 22), and on the second cast I was into a fairly nice salmon.  After a short battle, he broke off.  It would be awhile before I had on another fish.  These flies that Bruiser tied have been very successful on Maine’s rivers.  At first I found it remarkable that such large fish could be brought to hand with such small hooks.   I doubt my parents tied/fished anything smaller than a size 16 back in the forties/fifties.  They would be surprised and happy to seem me catch such beautiful fish on such itty-bitty flies. After lunch and a nap I set up my Sage 6 weight to lob some streamers, and returned to the same run.  It was raining and cold, but I was snuggled under several layers of fleece and a good raincoat.  I had several hits, but no hook-ups.  (Peter:  I was using a variation of the fly I used on the Saugeen.)  When I noticed that I was the only one on the stream, no drift boats, and it was *very* cold and did I mention *snowing*, I headed back to the rv.  I love to fish, but there are limits.  It took a long time to thaw out my hands.  I wish they made a fishing glove that would keep your hands/fingers warm and still allow the dexterity needed to tie knots and control your line.  I use fingerless fleece gloves, and while they do give some protection from the cold even when wet, the tips of my old fingers just can not handle the exposure. I slept very well that night.  The snow turned back to hard rain, and lulled me to sleep.  This morning I opted not to fish because it was cold.  Earlier I said it would be awhile before I had on another fish

Question:

It really depends on  what you fish for and where. That said, fast sink shooting heads are probably the most versatile.  "Fast" is relative, it will take even a high density line quite a while to sink to any depth. ( Lead cores etc excepted). If you start your retrieve while the line is sinking, then you can also arrest its descent. This allows one to search the water column for fish by "counting down". Cast, start counting in seconds, and start your retrieve when the line has sunk as far as you think it should have. If no takes, increase the count. Keep doing this until you either reach bottom, or move to another spot.  If you get a take, fish continue to fish at the same depth. Fish often hold at specific depths, and unless your fly is at this depth, you will not catch them. Less than a foot or so can sometimes make a difference. Large unweighted streamers on short relatively heavy leaders are usually the best bet.  Make sure you have plenty of backing, and that your knots are secure. Larger fish are often to be expected when using such tactics. It is also easier to cast large or heavy flies with such a rig.  If pike and similar fish are present, then use either wire or kevlar tippet.  Not too short. Use at least eighteen inches of such tippet. Should the water not be too deep, then fishing buoyant streamers on short leaders ( with the sinking head), can be very effective indeed. Let the sinking head sink to the bottom, and then a pull on the line will cause the floating lure to dive for the bottom, before rising slowly again. This action is often almost irresistible to some fish.  This can of course also be done by "counting down". With floating lines, and the appropriate leaders and flies, you can fish down to about twelve to fifteen feet without too many problems. With a fast sinking head you can get down to about forty five feet in a reasonable time frame.  Greater depths require other methods ( downrigging). Full lines are best avoided, they cause too many problems TL MC

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Question:

Thanks Noah. Yes I am planning on starting out from Chokoloskee.  I will be paddling with the wife.  My friend and his wife will be going also.  He is familiar with the area and we will be traveling together, in separate canoes of course. Yes, you can catch Tarpon in a canoe.  Just tighten the drag down and let him pull you around for a while until he gets tired. Hopefully be there in March.  Thanks for the info.  The canoe is in my backyard as I type this.  Woo Hoo! Frosty – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like a doable choice to me. I paddled around out there for about three weeks a couple Februaries ago and, although I don’t own a Chgamplain, a friend of mine does and I’ve done a couple overnighters with her in it (you know what I mean). I’ve found that the Champlain’s relatively low profile does well in the waves and wind and, if you’re planning on paddling at all on the outside down there, that’ll be most important. I gotta say that paddling solo in that wind might be quite a challenge. At 18′, even with a relatively low profile, you’ll get pushed around solo pretty good. The boat tracks very well, however, and if you really load it up, you’ll do as well as in any other. Are you gonna fish? I was almost afraid to, being a wimpy trout fisherman, the thought of a 35 pound tarpon on my fly rod was a bit intimidating. I know they do it on those fishing shows, but geez. Where are you going? I used Chokoloskee as a base and bumped around in the 10000 islands, stopping to get water every 6 days or so, of course there were two of us so solo you might not need to come out so often. If you haven’t been there before, make sure you reserve campsites with the rangers, try to get the chickees – lean-tos in the water, raised on stilts – ("land" sites are either mud pits or skeeter infested like you wouldn’t believe, worse than black flies in Quebec), and be careful about trying to stretch days – the campsites are relatively few and far between. Adios. Jealous. PS – I suggest reading Peter Matthiesson’s -Lost Man’s River- while you’re out there. It can be a daunting hunk of book at times, but a good read while you’re in the midst of it all.

Response:

Considering buying the We-no-nah Champlain 18′ canoe in Kevlar with a gelcoat.  I am a large fellow (#240) and was wondering what the performance of this boat would be.  Mainly planning on paddling the Everglades where you have to take your water with you also.  This will carry a large load according to the manufacturer, but was interested in comments. Anybody own one? Thanks, Frosty

Response:

Sounds like a doable choice to me. I paddled around out there for about three weeks a couple Februaries ago and, although I don’t own a Chgamplain, a friend of mine does and I’ve done a couple overnighters with her in it (you know what I mean). I’ve found that the Champlain’s relatively low profile does well in the waves and wind and, if you’re planning on paddling at all on the outside down there, that’ll be most important. I gotta say that paddling solo in that wind might be quite a challenge. At 18′, even with a relatively low profile, you’ll get pushed around solo pretty good. The boat tracks very well, however, and if you really load it up, you’ll do as well as in any other. Are you gonna fish? I was almost afraid to, being a wimpy trout fisherman, the thought of a 35 pound tarpon on my fly rod was a bit intimidating. I know they do it on those fishing shows, but geez. Where are you going? I used Chokoloskee as a base and bumped around in the 10000 islands, stopping to get water every 6 days or so, of course there were two of us so solo you might not need to come out so often. If you haven’t been there before, make sure you reserve campsites with the rangers, try to get the chickees – lean-tos in the water, raised on stilts – ("land" sites are either mud pits or skeeter infested like you wouldn’t believe, worse than black flies in Quebec), and be careful about trying to stretch days – the campsites are relatively few and far between. Adios. Jealous. PS – I suggest reading Peter Matthiesson’s -Lost Man’s River- while you’re out there. It can be a daunting hunk of book at times, but a good read while you’re in the midst of it all. Considering buying the We-no-nah Champlain 18′ canoe in Kevlar with a gelcoat.  I am a large fellow (#240) and was wondering what the performance of this boat would be.  Mainly planning on paddling the Everglades where you have to take your water with you also.  This will carry a large load according to the manufacturer, but was interested in comments. Anybody own one? Thanks, Frosty

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Question:

George – Can I have some of what your drinking? It’s gotta be good stuff! Nice prose there Georgie… Greg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I began this journey on a dare.  I don’t even remember who it was.   It was one of you, even two or three, yet, here I am, wondering why I’m here? The fly rod is but a stick.  It is a reaching prest toward trout. Something to dab with, as in days of yore.  The lure of water, fins, and things that fall into water are what closes the chain that draws such as you   and I to feeding fish? We are men of water. I have mused much in my lifetime of how fishing began with sticks.  I have thought of the first hook and I’m sure, in my mind, it has always been hidden in the crotch of a sapling.  A simple affair of early man looking ‘down’ into clear water at big fish, stationary and finning, holding – waiting for food to come their way.  Food, the number one driving force of this planet.  Food, the mother of imagination.  Food, the mistress of fly fishing.  In all time, it only needed a student, willing to learn. I can see myself in another life, ugly, naked, hungry,  looking at such fish.  How it came to be that ‘the light of imagination,’ would turn the sapling, I may have been holding onto, so I could peer out and down a little better, sparked the logic of stripping it of all the limbs except one lower one, branch stub ‘up’ for a snare, to be able to reach down, slowly, moving the stick under such a wild creature and with all the quickness and might I could muster, lift it quickly, impelling and catching it fresh and easy . . . surely was a feat that had to be repeated again and again over the entire history of mankind.  Repeated by others of our reincarnated pasts? Today, I have built a bamboo fly rod plant.  A great river flows in front.  I am torn between its lure and the wand one must have in hand to conquer it.  A line of Osage orange trees line the other side of the road and a few yards beyond that, the Snake River slowly begins to fill with spring run off.  I am a trapped man in love with all that is around him.  Wood, freshly sawed with the dust veins, lay in heaps on the floor – sweetly scenting of pine, prints upon the mind.  This is a place children would remember.  Work benches, take form and the whirling sounds of a large table saw, cross saws, drills and electric screwdrivers whine late into the night.  A man’s dream slowly takes shape.  You can see his commitment to the future and of the many men he thinks about as he builds alone, thoughtful, diligent, steadily he holds on to his beliefs and dreams.  He feel very alone many times, late at night. Already, it is 1:26 AM in the morning.  The rod-guide-winding table has been dyed cherry wood and it has been varnished and now a clear finish dries while I write this.  Today, cutting bevels of sixty degrees each arrived for a new tapering machine.  A Beveler for roughing out Bamboo strips has been ordered and is on its way.  A new and second rod winding machine has been set up and the new table will have two of them.  Late this evening I bought the glue that will hold the Bastard Rods together.  Two cases of rod binding string are on its way, enough to wrap several hundred fly rods.  Planers, drill press, a SouthBend Lathe have bee ordered along with a heating oven.  Daily, hour by hour, week by week this is all I think of.  It is all I do.  I am a man of water. My mind sees pictures into the future.  Of men astream, casting.   If I am lucky, they may be casting a bamboo fly rod . . . a tool of our past, welded in spirit by our human history, flowing like the mane of a horse, that once upon a time was our fly lines. I can visualize another one day sitting in this fly rod shop I’m building, musing,  banding guides in colors sublime.  Green or Blue trimmed in Black or Gold, each wrap a binding makes – the man to his client.  One simple wrap, will go astream to secret places I know not of, but in spirit as the reed swishes softly in a early dawn, many miles away, by another.  We are men of water. The simplicity of thread has much beauty as the simplicity of the Chinese Bamboo does.  The simplicity of cork grown in Portugal by peasants who wait 35 years for its first crop, provides ‘feel,’ yet no one has empathy for those that work from hand to mouth for it.  The story of cane comes not without just dues.  How can something so simple be so cost intensive by involving so many lives?  It is just a stick, right?  How can anything like this be complicated? Up the Sui River  Northwest of Canton on a parcel of land of about 48,000 acres is the only place in the world that Angler Bamboo grows. In all the world, in a nation that crawls with more people then a colony of ants, a peasant gleans the mountain side of mature Tonkin.  He will strip it of leaves and he will drag it to the river.  He will bind it into rafts and then ride it over 230 miles down river.  There, the bamboo is scrubbed in wet beach sand to get rid of white fungus growth and it is stacked in tall bundles, left in the sun for weeks to dry and slowly cure.  Many hands have already handled the pole and so, it is taken to a warehouse where it is heated over charcoal and a bend is straightened out.  Soon, it is culled and cut and shipped to the United States.  Some of it cures now in a loft in my new shop.  That this one pole for a fly rod has traveled nearly 10,000 miles to be here, few of us care not.  It is so simple in form.  So naive in purpose, as to boggle the mind.  It’s destiny is held in my hands, and in that, magic is possible.  Isn’t it said that anything is possible for those who dream? "There’s a Wood Duck Decoy in that there hunk of wood if you know how to carve him out of it." Making a fly rod is a contemplative man’s sport as is the art of fly fishing.  If it isn’t an art form, then it should be.  Only a mindless boar doesn’t appreciate his own past. So it is, I see in the near future – a simple pole being split into eighteen strips, and each designed in a specific place in a fly rod for someone . . . many miles away.  Six sides and two tips filled with glues, varnishes, hardwood inserts, guides for sliding graceful fly lines and for a fly, a man, a trout, and a season.  For a man of water. I am humbled to be just a little part of it.  There is much to think about yet.  I am close to beginning the journey of building.  God help me. —

Question:

If you are fishing for subsistence, you wouldn’t be using a fly rod. A line, hook, and worms are much more efficient.     – Ken If you cannot outfish your local worm angler you need more practice.  You should catch more by stalking and moving than those who sit and wait for fish to come to them.  Worms catch the fresh planters and little ones but most of the big ones want something natural, like a #2 wooly bugger.

 I’ve seen people catch some darn nice catfish on worms and chicken livers. Fly fishing with homemade flies is cheaper than worm fishing.  You can catch fifty or a hundred trout on one fly that costs ten cents to make.

Worms are free, monofilament is cheap, and all you need is a stick. … and remember – worms appear to feel pain when you impale them on a hook.

))))) Later,      - Ken

Response:

I never said that C&K is necessary.  I said, in my view, it is preferable. My posts regarding C&K are mainly because I get so tired of all the C&R people who believe they are somehow taking the moral high ground because they choose to use fish for entertainment instead of nourishment. -Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

Response:

I never said that C&K is necessary.  I said, in my view, it is preferable. My posts regarding C&K are mainly because I get so tired of all the C&R people who believe they are somehow taking the moral high ground because they choose to use fish for entertainment instead of nourishment. -Mark/Particle Salad

Keeping some portion of the post you are responding to is usually helpful… just a suggestion. That said, the reverse appears to be true in this newsgroup.  The C&K people believe they are somehow taking the moral high ground.  There has been very little talk of C&R being morally superior.  The fact being that the majority of people here seem to practice a hybrid of the two forms, releasing most of their catch but keeping a couple for a meal once in a while. Later,      - Ken

Response:

I never said that C&K is necessary.  I said, in my view, it is preferable. My posts regarding C&K are mainly because I get so tired of all the C&R people who believe they are somehow taking the moral high ground because they choose to use fish for entertainment instead of nourishment. That said, the reverse appears to be true in this newsgroup.  The C&K people believe they are somehow taking the moral high ground.  There has been very little talk of C&R being morally superior.

… that’s for sure. At least here i have been challenged several times to prove c&r was ethically defensible and *most* of my arguments have been attempts to refute the claims that c&r is unethical, selfish, greedy, wanton and just a plain evil. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

Particle Salad wrote My posts regarding C&K are mainly because I get so tired of all the C&R people who believe they are somehow taking the moral high ground because they choose to use fish for entertainment instead of nourishment.

You got it wrong, Part.  When they do take a holier-than-thou stance it’s because they see themselves helping to preserve the fishery for others to use.  Now, you may debate whether or not they are correct in that feeling, but please understand that using fish for entertainment instead of table fare is not the issue that makes them feel superior. As a matter of fact, it’s the other way round.  Tim, Jon et al, (and you too, I believe), have taken the holier-than-thou stance based on the fact that you choose to use fish (at least some of the time) for nourishment rather than solely for entertainment. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Harvest angling is not about subsistence. That’s a ridiculous oxymoron. It’s obvious no one on this ng needs to fish for essential nutrition exactly equivalent to fish they may catch. To suggest otherwise is an insult to everyone’s intelligence. Poor people from rural counties in California definitely fish and hunt for food, and you are right that these folks aren’t here on the internet, but that does not mean that they don’t exist or aren’t relevant to this discussion.  Sure they could get by without wild foods in these areas where there are no jobs. Many of them do so by growing pot or manufacturing speed while others come to the major cities for homeless food kitchens.

If you are fishing for subsistence, you wouldn’t be using a fly rod. A line, hook, and worms are much more efficient.      - Ken

Response:

Harvest angling is not about subsistence. That’s a ridiculous oxymoron. It’s obvious no one on this ng needs to fish for essential nutrition exactly equivalent to fish they may catch. To suggest otherwise is an insult to everyone’s intelligence.

bear with me Mark…. Poor people from rural counties in California definitely fish and hunt for food,

what are you suggesting that hunting and fishing be restricted to the poor by some sort of means test? When backpacking I rely on trout for protein and also eat mushrooms and morels, berries and wild salad greens.  I live outdoors 50% of the time and the one trout per week that I eat on average definitely makes a difference in my budget.  

perhaps it does – but I take it you are not going to the Thompson to catch your Thanksgiving Steelhead? I did not say you couldn’t – I said the subsistence argument – the argument that justifies fishing only for essential nutrition is hollow  and so out of whack with modern society it is an insult to our intelligence. As it is the basis for the whole ethical/unethical question that amkes this c&r vs c&k argument go round the whole thing is as baseless as a house of cards. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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[deleted] Tim how do you know you represent their views? Have you done some research have you polled them? Talked to them all individually?

[deleted] Well…theres the CFF and the letter to the editor of the local paper I read the other day…and uh…a buncha people I talk to regulalry, but you’re right…NO scientific poll was conducted ! I wonder if I can use the same pollsters that inquire how many people would have taken Monica up on her offer too… — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

[deleted] If you are fishing for subsistence, you wouldn’t be using a fly rod. A line, hook, and worms are much more efficient.

The flyrod’s only a deke. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

[deleted] If you are fishing for subsistence, you wouldn’t be using a fly rod. A line, hook, and worms are much more efficient. The flyrod’s only a deke.

I’m afraid I’m going to need a Tim-English dictionary for this one.  A deke???      - Ken

Response:

says: Poor people from rural counties in California definitely fish and hunt for food, what are you suggesting that hunting and fishing be restricted to the poor by some sort of means test?

No, hunting and fishing should be available to all.  Everybody should eat good healthy food too. When backpacking I rely on trout for protein and also eat mushrooms and morels, berries and wild salad greens… perhaps it does – but I take it you are not going to the Thompson to catch your Thanksgiving Steelhead?

No, the Thompson is a religious pilgrimage.  Nutrition for the soul.  I started walking last month and should arrive friday.  My shoes are holy and my feet are blistered, and yearning for those greased bowling balls that feel just like clover through the soles of studded brogues. If I happen to catch a small trout I might eat it for lunch, regulations permitting, but most of the trout there are way too big for my pan, I can never find tortillas, the olive oil doesn’t pour, and I feel it important to patronize Emma and Burl’s in case of Y2K or nuclear blowoffs. The only way I can afford it is to camp for most of my stay and luckily that is the warm desert part of Canada, eh? I have no cheaper good chance at steelhead like that. I did not say you couldn’t – I said the subsistence argument – the argument that justifies fishing only for essential nutrition is hollow  and so out of whack with modern society it is an insult to our intelligence. As it is the basis for the whole ethical/unethical question that amkes this c&r vs c&k argument go round the whole thing is as baseless as a house of cards.

100 % agreement here.   I didn’t mean to support one side or the other, just that I eat fish. Ethics are personal, and mine are definitely out of whack with modern society.  To me, beauty and nature and leisure are more important than money. See you at the Log Cabin, friday through tuesday.   I’ll buy you a high-test or a Kokanee! Mark Vinsel

Response:

Speaking of catch and release — have you seen "Ketchup and Release" at http://www.getfishy.com/store/tshirts.html ? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve come to realize that Particle Salad, Tim W and Jon Cook are right. Catch and release is never necessary as a Management Tool. Yes you can achieve much the same thing by finding ways to restrict harvest. It may cost more. It may be far more difficult to manage. It may wildly restrict access to the rich or the exceptionally lucky, but it can be done. However Catch and Kill is never necessary either. You can always achieve lower overall mortality by applying the same restricted access rules to c&r or simply close the river. Harvest angling is not about subsistence. That’s a ridiculous oxymoron.  It’s obvious no one on this ng needs to fish for essential nutrition exactly equivalent to fish they may catch. To suggest otherwise is an insult to everyone’s intelligence. Don’t confuse this argument with the TU  " Safeway" argument. I’m not using this argument to promote c&r at the expense of harvest. I’m not saying "don’t kill that trout because you can buy an Alaskan salmon at the Supermarket". It simply points out the reality of life in the modern world. We feed ourselves from the food industry chain. Harvest angling is not a moral imperative. It is a personal choice. Just as releasing a legal fish is a personal choice. Killing fish because of concern the fish may suffer for a long period or die is a personal choice as well. There is no wide spread moral or ethical belief that says because we caught the fish we owe it death To say there is, is an artificial construct. Regulations that permit harvest, restrict it to slots or ban it outright in favour of c&r are management choices carried out in a political framework. In light of this I say it makes more sense to talk of alternatives than moral or ethical absolutes. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

If you are fishing for subsistence, you wouldn’t be using a fly rod. A line, hook, and worms are much more efficient.     – Ken

If you cannot outfish your local worm angler you need more practice.  You should catch more by stalking and moving than those who sit and wait for fish to come to them.  Worms catch the fresh planters and little ones but most of the big ones want something natural, like a #2 wooly bugger. Fly fishing with homemade flies is cheaper than worm fishing.  You can catch fifty or a hundred trout on one fly that costs ten cents to make. … and remember – worms appear to feel pain when you impale them on a hook. Mark Vinsel

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I’ve come to realize that Particle Salad, Tim W and Jon Cook are right. Catch and release is never necessary as a Management Tool. Yes you can achieve much the same thing by finding ways to restrict harvest. It may cost more. It may be far more difficult to manage. It may wildly restrict access to the rich or the exceptionally lucky, but it can be done. However Catch and Kill is never necessary either. You can always achieve lower overall mortality by applying the same restricted access rules to c&r or simply close the river. Harvest angling is not about subsistence. That’s a ridiculous oxymoron.  It’s obvious no one on this ng needs to fish for essential nutrition exactly equivalent to fish they may catch. To suggest otherwise is an insult to everyone’s intelligence. Don’t confuse this argument with the TU  " Safeway" argument. I’m not using this argument to promote c&r at the expense of harvest. I’m not saying "don’t kill that trout because you can buy an Alaskan salmon at the Supermarket". It simply points out the reality of life in the modern world. We feed ourselves from the food industry chain. Harvest angling is not a moral imperative. It is a personal choice. Just as releasing a legal fish is a personal choice. Killing fish because of concern the fish may suffer for a long period or die is a personal choice as well. There is no wide spread moral or ethical belief that says because we caught   the fish we owe it death To say there is, is an artificial construct.   Regulations that permit harvest, restrict it to slots or ban it outright in favour of c&r are management choices carried out in a political framework. In light of this I say it makes more sense to talk of alternatives than moral or ethical absolutes. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Regulations that permit harvest, restrict it to slots or ban it outright in favour of c&r are management choices carried out in a political framework. In light of this I say it makes more sense to talk of alternatives than moral or ethical absolutes.

I will agree if others agree.  I think this would be FAR more productive than arguing with one extremist. Later,      - Ken

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[deleted] than arguing with one extremist.

Who (most likely) represents approximately 750,000 licensed non-flyfishing non-C&R anglers in the finest state (Colorado) alone. Contrast that with 35,000 TU members NATIONWIDE. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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This whole catch and release topic fascinates me in several ways.  I view myself as a conservationalists but am also likely to keep a fish to eat or put in the smoker once and awhile.  I have lived in Eastern Washington State all my life so have been fortunate to not have to fight people for a fishing spot and never have had a problem finding fish so I guess I am unaware of what it is like to try and fly fish on the East Coast for example. Washington does some interesting things to ease pressure from a enforcement standpoint and I am curious if other states are doing the same thing or not. In just about every county you will find lakes and streams that have single, barbless hooks and restricted catch limits of one or two fish.  In essence, the Fish and Game Dept. has made sure there are waters that offer quality fishing and lots of water that offers quanity.  What I have found is that the people who are more concerned about putting meat in their freezer won’t fish the restricted waters because they view it as a waste of time to only be able to keep one fish (never mind that one fish tends to weigh more then 5 fish out of the catch and kill lakes but we keep that as our little secret).  In turn, most of the fisherman that fish the restricted water tend to practice catch and release so you end up with high quality waters without getting your rear flamed for attempting to make  a piece of water fly fishing only or catch and release only.  This has worked out much better for our states fishing then the fly fishing only waters since the amount of quality waters has really increased in the last ten years. Mike Spokane, WA

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[deleted] than arguing with one extremist. Who (most likely) represents approximately 750,000 licensed non-flyfishing non-C&R anglers in the finest state (Colorado) alone.

Tim how do you know you represent their views? Have you done some research have you polled them? Talked to them all individually? Show that you have and I will never post on this subject again either. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Harvest angling is not about subsistence. That’s a ridiculous oxymoron. It’s obvious no one on this ng needs to fish for essential nutrition exactly equivalent to fish they may catch. To suggest otherwise is an insult to everyone’s intelligence.

Poor people from rural counties in California definitely fish and hunt for food, and you are right that these folks aren’t here on the internet, but that does not mean that they don’t exist or aren’t relevant to this discussion.  Sure they could get by without wild foods in these areas where there are no jobs. Many of them do so by growing pot or manufacturing speed while others come to the major cities for homeless food kitchens. When backpacking I rely on trout for protein and also eat mushrooms and morels, berries and wild salad greens.  I live outdoors 50% of the time and the one trout per week that I eat on average definitely makes a difference in my budget.   I met Russell Chatham once and asked his most important advice regarding painting; he said "cut your expenses" (I was homeless, living in my truck at the time).  Every penny I do not spend buys time to paint.  Time and money are limited while trout are renewable in the good places. Mark Vinsel www.vinsel.com

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Question:

Hi,Looking for a good lightweight outfit,to be used on a river in the U.K. The 3wt is a SAGE 389-3LL, 8ft9inch for a 3wt 3piece. I can’t recommend this rod highly enough as well as the 7ft9 for a 3wt line (you can cast beautifully only the leader as well as the whole line). If you need a shorter rod look at the Scott Power Ply, a 6ft10inch for a 3wt (very short but roll cast like a dream, Thomas Urbig

I agree with Thomas, but my small stream rods are the Sage LL 279, a 7"9" 2 wt, and a Powell SS  6′6" 2/3.  Both are sweetheart rods, that are great under cover.  Although I’m not sure you havve to spend as much as we did to get good performance with light gear.  I have used a St Croix 7′6" 3wt Legend (cost about $170USD) and I understand that the Cabela’s FT and PT series are also fine rods ($200 and $140USD respectively) jg

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi,Looking for a good lightweight outfit,to be used on a river in the U.K. The Derbyshire Wye is a lovely stretch,with overhanging trees,weirs and everything you can think of. But i feel when i`ve fished it the past i`ve been over gunned. This has been with a 4 weight 8 foot rod,to 1.5 pound tippets and almost always flies,tied on 18 through 22. Hear the Americans have knowledge of 1 and 2 weight outfits. Would love some feedback on this. Any info relevant to the lightweight approach and tying small flies(I know there is a group for this) would be most welcome. — All things great,come to those who wait. Not always the case,me thinks. K.A.White

Keith, a 3wt is my standard trout rod here in New England and late summer and fall I stick with a 1wt when stalking finicky trout and fishing very small streams. The 3wt handles almost anything you ask from a trout rod (small to medium streams), the 1wt restricts you to some degree. Although you can cast quite some distance and will be able to throw a small streamer it won’t look beautiful and isn’t really a domain of a 1wt. On the positive side you have a rod which protects even a 1 pound tippet and enables you to trick a 5 pound trout on a #28 midge/1 lbs tippet without troubles. As far as dry fly fishing goes you are OK with flies #12 and smaller, but midge fishing with a 1wt is the domain of this rod. Also nymphing shallow water (you can cast up to a 0.4 g tin shot without much trouble) is great. Drawback, the 1wt line has not enough mass to lift the split shot off the water when doing a roll cast. I build my own 1wt from an Orvis blank. The 3wt is a SAGE 389-3LL, 8ft9inch for a 3wt 3piece. I can’t recommend this rod highly enough as well as the 7ft9 for a 3wt line (you can cast beautifully only the leader as well as the whole line). If you need a shorter rod look at the Scott Power Ply, a 6ft10inch for a 3wt (very short but roll cast like a dream, the SAGE analogs (356, 366) are to stiff for my feelings (although I like very fast rods). Hope that helps, if not mail back. Thomas — Thomas Urbig

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi,Looking for a good lightweight outfit,to be used on a river in the U.K. The Derbyshire Wye is a lovely stretch,with overhanging trees,weirs and everything you can think of. But i feel when i`ve fished it the past i`ve been over gunned. This has been with a 4 weight 8 foot rod,to 1.5 pound tippets and almost always flies,tied on 18 through 22. Hear the Americans have knowledge of 1 and 2 weight outfits. Would love some feedback on this. Any info relevant to the lightweight approach and tying small flies(I know there is a group for this) would be most welcome. — All things great,come to those who wait. Not always the case,me thinks. K.A.White

This might not be the help you are looking for.  For myself, I just get by with a 4wt in a moderate wind.  That’s only on the days it isn’t really windy around here.  At any rate, Orvis sells 1wt and 2 wt rods and lines. Buy and try…  It’s the surest way to find out if it’s what you’re after, and if you don’t like it you have added to your rod collection.  Something for the grandkids.  "Yep, sonny, this is what I used to catch the big ones on when I was your age."

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Hi,Looking for a good lightweight outfit,to be used on a river in the U.K. The Derbyshire Wye is a lovely stretch,with overhanging trees,weirs and everything you can think of. But i feel when i`ve fished it the past i`ve been over gunned. This has been with a 4 weight 8 foot rod,to 1.5 pound tippets and almost always flies,tied on 18 through 22. Hear the Americans have knowledge of 1 and 2 weight outfits. Would love some feedback on this. Any info relevant to the lightweight approach and tying small flies(I know there is a group for this) would be most welcome. — All things great,come to those who wait. Not always the case,me thinks. K.A.White

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Question:

Is there a fly fishing mail list?? — Bob Bowdey La Mer Majik http://www.wizard.net/~majik Will Rogers never met a lawyer!

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Is there a fly fishing mail list?? — Bob Bowdey La Mer Majik http://www.wizard.net/~majik Will Rogers never met a lawyer!

– Brad "Country" Hancock LT                 USN Don’t squat with your spurs on!

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Question:

I suspect the dye you used was a problem – too many salts or something else.  Try a pure acid dye, and after dying, make sure to rinse the heck out of the hide. Thomas Gilg

It was RIT DYE….

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writes: Rit dye gives fairly good results but tough colors like black Rit is not very good for fur or feathers. Of course there may be someone on the group who has good luck with Rit, my hats off to them

To get a good black with rit dye you need to add some brown dye to it. Now if I could only remember how much!                                                    Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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Question:

Does anyone have any fly patterns for Pike ? Thanks Rod

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Hi, I use a large wooly bugger 1/0 or 2/0 with an extra long tail.  Also the Double Bunny is great for many species of fish including pike.  The Double Bunny is available from Dan Bailey’s 96 catalog. They are on page number 14 and cost $2.95 each plus S&H. You can get a catalog or order by calling 800-356-4052. Good Tying & Tight Lines Al _______ BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT

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Does anyone have any fly patterns for Pike ? Thanks Rod

I’m just about to try some bass poppers on northern pike in Scotland, so I’ll let you know! Andrew

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I’ve only fished for Pike once, in my early fly fishing/tying days.  I was sent to Cold Lake, Alberta to do some work at the Air Force base.  It was mid summer and I was going to be there for about two weeks.  I’d heard the Pike were big and mean in that lake.  (And they were, I saw some gawd awful big ones laying on the bottom of the lake while I was canoeing!) I asked for pattern recommendations from one of the local fly shop owners.  He said ty something big and "boppy" out of deer hair.  Cast it out on the water, slam it down, no grace, no glory and then strip it back, across the water in short burst. I tied up some deer hair "balls", for lack of a better description, with a couple of black hackle tips for legs/tails (sizes 2 to 2/0). I did exactly as he suggested, slapped ‘em down on the water and stipped them in.   What blast!  I’ve never had so much fun fishing on the surface!  I had one pike take three consecutive hair-raising slashes at my fly.  After each slash, I struck so hard that the line went back over my head.  I just pull it forward, and put it right back down where he had hit.  The third time, he got it! Since then, I’ve become a little more refined in my tying and fishing techniques.  But I haven’t had the chance to fish for pike again. If you want to fish the surface, bass bugs would probably work well, although you might choose a color pattern that is more like something they would see in the local area.  I dont know if some of the bright colors will work, I have no experience with these. Pike will eat almost anything that moves and they can get their mouth around: frogs, snakes, ducklings, you name it.  I tried to make as much commotion on the water as I could. It seemed to work. Good luck, Dave.

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I have never tried to catch pike on the fly BUT on one lake in Lincolnshire I lost a number of lures to pike before I realised the problem. They were basic white marabou with fluorescent green tails and/or overwings and some were leaded at the head.

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I’ve fished quite a lot for pike with flies, and 90% of the time, I use a Bunny Bug, tied on a 3/0 hook with a tail of rabbit strip and a few strands of krystal flash, a body of palmered rabbit strip (fuzzies out,) and a head of either bead-chain eyes or lacquered with a painted-on eye.  Black and white are the best, and I sometimes mix them together for a good searching pattern.   If you want to add a little, tie in some marabou right behind the head to give it an attractor.  Other flies to use are Decievers, any tarpon fly, dahlberg divers, and poppers.  Keep in mind, that some of these are destroyed by just one fish.

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Question:

I’m so new to this I have no info to trade, I live in Castle Rock, and I still think Deckers is great? Anyway- like you I am interested in knowing some of the spots other people prefer so please keep this posting going, Of all the Fly Fishers I know, few are into computers, and of those who do both only a few will be able to go on the same day as me, so I’m not worried about crowds forming. Mike Peters —- Fishing, Camping, MWC, Home office, Colorado, Micrographics, Computers, Electronics, TV/VCR/Audio repair.

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I’m interested in fly fishing in Colorado in some of the more out of the way streams and mountain lakes. Places that require a 5 to 10 mile hike .These places are safe from the mob because they are too hard to get to. Anybody out there have any secret places near Vail they want to talk

about About a month ago -1st of Feb – I went fly fishing out of Avon (Beaver Creek) on the Lower and Upper Eagle River, in and out of Vail.  There’s a new shop, Fly Fishing Outfitters, in Avon.  Owner is Bill Perry and guide is Pat Moore.  Beautiful scenery, but not the hike you describe.  Pat Moore is very helpful as a guide, if that’s what you’re looking for.  Have fun! Pat Ottinger

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: I’m interested in fly fishing in Colorado in some of the more out of the : way streams and mountain lakes. Places that require a 5 to 10 mile hike : .These places are safe from the mob because they are too hard to get to. : Anybody out there have any secret places near Vail they want to talk : about I’d show you, but then I’d have to kill you. ;{) Tim Walker

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I’m interested in fly fishing in Colorado in some of the more out of the way streams and mountain lakes. Places that require a 5 to 10 mile hike .These places are safe from the mob because they are too hard to get to. Anybody out there have any secret places near Vail they want to talk about —like how is Grizzly Creek.

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