Question:

I am traveling to Olympia to celebrate a friends birthday. Is there anything happening this time of year close to town. He mentioned that there is a small river called the Deschutes (not to be confused with the more famous Oregon river), that has some cutts and rainbows. I was just wondering if I should bother flying with all the gear to fish a morning there. Thanks.

Response:

I am traveling to Olympia to celebrate a friends birthday. Is there anything happening this time of year close to town. He mentioned that there is a small river called the Deschutes (not to be confused with the more famous Oregon river), that has some cutts and rainbows. I was just wondering if I should bother flying with all the gear to fish a morning there. Thanks.

I don’t know a darn thing about Washington fishing but I do know it is better to bring some gear and not need it than to not bring the gear and then find out you could use it. — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

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Walt, I do not know anything about the Deschutes near Olympia, but  do know they do have about 2 or 3 rivers that are good for steelhead fishing within an hour so South of Olympia. Bring the gear! Luckyboy

I am traveling to Olympia to celebrate a friends birthday. Is there anything happening this time of year close to town. He mentioned that there is a small river called the Deschutes (not to be confused with the more famous Oregon river), that has some cutts and rainbows. I was just wondering if I should bother flying with all the gear to fish a morning there. Thanks.

<snipped Wayne’s reply – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

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<among other things I don’t know a darn thing about Washington fishing but I do know it is better to bring some gear and not need it than to not bring the gear and then find out you could use it.

That explains all that gear you brought to Kansas, eh?

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Its been about 10years since I fished the Deschutes near the brewery in Olympia (my sister-in-law used to live in Lacey and I fished the river whenever we visited) so I don’t know the current situation. However, it used to be decent fishing thru the golf course for searun cuts, the occaisonal steelhead and I even once caught a silver. Its a fairly small stream and definately urban conditions, but it beats sitting around with inlaws. Bob Weinberger

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am traveling to Olympia to celebrate a friends birthday. Is there anything happening this time of year close to town. He mentioned that there is a small river called the Deschutes (not to be confused with the more famous Oregon river), that has some cutts and rainbows. I was just wondering if I should bother flying with all the gear to fish a morning there. Thanks.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got off the phone with a fly shop in town that reported decent fishing for cutts in the Deschutes with some fish being taken on dries when the sun comes out. I am definately bringing the gear. Besides, fly fishing is the best cure I know after a long night with an old friend and some single malt. Thanks for convincing me. Walt (who is easily convinced)

Response:

I am traveling to Olympia to celebrate a friends birthday. Is there anything happening this time of year close to town. He mentioned that there is a small river called the Deschutes (not to be confused with the more famous Oregon river), that has some cutts and rainbows. I was just wondering if I should bother flying with all the gear to fish a morning there. Thanks.

you might want to think about fishing the saltwater that surrounds the area. there should be some sea-run cutts around, and even some resident silver salmon (especially north around tacoma). chris

Response:

He mentioned that there is a small river called the Deschutes (not to be confused with the more famous Oregon river), that has some cutts and rainbows.

Walt, Here’s a webpage that’ll help out for the regs for the Deschutes River in Washington state: http://www.wa.gov/wdfw/fish/regs/fishregs.htm Sorry I can’t be of more help. I’ve never been down that way to cast a line. If you do fish, I’d love to read a report! Fish on, my friend. Danny McMillin — Danny McMillin — Remove XX from email address to reduce spam.

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That explains all that gear you brought to Kansas, eh?

Naw all the gear I took to Kansas is my personal crusade to ensure full employment for the makers of fine fly rods and reels as well as the dealers who sell them. — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

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Question:

I know this is not flyfishing related but I also know that there is a vast pool of knowledge here that is hard to find anywhere else. I purchased an Orvis 350 open faced spinning reel at an estate sale today. Can any of you fine posters let me know what I have, value, collectability etc. Thanks Cooper

Response:

I know this is not flyfishing related but I also know that there is a vast pool of knowledge here that is hard to find anywhere else. I purchased an Orvis 350 open faced spinning reel at an estate sale today. Can any of you fine posters let me know what I have, value, collectability

You have an Orvis 350 open faced spinning reel. Get in touch with Dave LaCourse immediately. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Question:

Hi Kyle, There are, at last count, 20 fly shops in the bay area.  Some great, some good, some so-so.  Where abouts are you and I’ll recommend a shop. Wes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m from Texas, and I just moved to the San Francisco area.  I am wondering if there are any good places to fly fish  saltwater or otherwise that I should know about. Thanks Kyle

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I’m from Texas, and I just moved to the San Francisco area.  I am wondering if there are any good places to fly fish  saltwater or otherwise that I should know about.   Thanks Kyle

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Kyle- take a look at WWW.FISHFIRST.COM any other ??, drop me a line and I’ll try and help out Larry #:)# (I’m in Danville)

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Question:

[deleted] Don’t get too hung up on graphite specs.

Good call Dan !. *Much* better to buy based on more *useful* information such as: MVR (Maximum Vibration Technology) <g — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

writes: Good call Dan !. *Much* better to buy based on more *useful* information such as: MVR (Maximum Vibration Technology) <g

Hi Tim, The point I was trying to make was that yes, there is a lot of different technology out there (including Orvis’ Maximum Vibration Reduction), but the whole point of the tech is to make a rod that works well and feels good to the individual.    It doesn’t matter what the technology is behind it if it doesn’t feel good (or make a difference) to the person buying it.  Got to keep that horse in front of the cart.<g                              Good Fishing,                                     Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

Response:

I’ve heard the designation IM6 used when describing rods. It seems as though this is some "grade" of graphite. Can someone enlighten me as to what it means? Thanks, Scott Wilkinson

Hi Scott, There are four generations of graphite compositions that rod makers use today. The original or first generation called graphite #1 is ~30 million modulus The second generation called graphite #2 or IM6 is ~40 million modulus The third generation called graphite #3 is ~ 50 million modulus The fourth generation called graphite #4 is ~ 64 million modulus The later generations are usually lighter and more efficient, but I am really more concerned about how they cast. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

Snip, snip….Don’t get too hung up on graphite specs.  Try out the rod and

see how it worksfor your needs.  Just because a rod says it is IM6 does not necessarily mean it is a better rod than one made out of the older graphite, or a worse rod than a rod made out of a newer graphite formula.  It allows the rod designer more design options than the old graphite and not as many options as the newestgraphite.  The result depends a lot on the skill of the rod designer and how he utilises those capabilities. Hope this helps,

I didn’t raise the question, but that’s about as good an answer as anybody could ask for. Cleared things up for me, anyway. Thanks. From the minute we’re born we all start dying;some of us just take longer than others. Me? I’ve been dragging my feet, but it doesn’t seem to help much.

Response:

I’ve heard the designation IM6 used when describing rods. It seems as though this is some "grade" of graphite. Can someone enlighten me as to what it means?

It stands for "Intermediate Modulus 600" and is a graphite specification that is used to make fly rods.  It is typically known as second generation graphite and was pretty much the standard for many rod companies prior to the higher modulus graphites (third and fourth generation) currently used.  Lots of good fly rods were/are made from this material although it is no longer the standard of the industry. I believe  Winston still makes all of their rods out of this material and they make some very nice (and expensive) fly rods from it. Don’t get too hung up on graphite specs.  Try out the rod and see how it works for your needs.  Just because a rod says it is IM6 does not necessarily mean it is a better rod than one made out of the older graphite, or a worse rod than a rod made out of a newer graphite formula.  It allows the rod designer more design options than the old graphite and not as many options as the newest graphite.  The result depends a lot on the skill of the rod designer and how he utilises those capabilities.                     Hope this helps,                           Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

Response:

I’ve heard the designation IM6 used when describing rods. It seems as though this is some "grade" of graphite. Can someone enlighten me as to what it means? Thanks, Scott Wilkinson

Response:

there was an excellent posting on all the types of graphite a couple of months back. I suggest you search Dejanews if you want the straight goods as I am sure I have muddled it up in my memory a tad; graphite as a raw material is available from a number of manufacturers. The original graphite had a modulus of 33 million or so ( 33 million what?) About 10 years ago "2nd generation" graphite appeared with a modulus of 42 million: IM6 and Sage’s graphite II were part of this crowd. 3rd generation followed (ie Graphite III), modulus of maybe 50 million etc etc. So IM6 refers to a 2nd generation graphite fibre from a particular manufacturer. It’s been used a long while, it’s proven, rod designers know it’s qualities and a lot of people like rods made from it. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

Question:

The Ranch has been sold to a private party who will be closing it up to ANY access by non-rich, non-friends-of -his. They will be open through June and the fishing is terrific.  You might even consider a guide for a half day to accellerate your success on stream.  I would recommend Kevin who books out of the Trout Fly in Mammoth. Have a great time. Bob

Response:

The Ranch has been sold to a private party who will be closing it up to ANY access by non-rich, non-friends-of -his.

I just spoke to the Ranch, and it is NOT sold.  It is, however, in escrow. It may or may not close escrow…  The Ranch will honor ALL reservations that have made a deposit through the entire 1998 season. Regards, Wes

Response:

Great News.  I hope it falls through and the Nature Conservancy picks it up.  I did not intend to pass along a false rumor. Bob

Response:

Can anyone tell me if they have fished at this private ranch in the Sierras? It is above Bishop on the Owens River, and I am curious as to what flies may be effective.  Thanks.

Response:

Can anyone tell me if they have fished at this private ranch in the

Sierras?  I am curious as to what flies may be effective.

I have caught huge browns on olive matukas and hornburgs. Talk to Bill Nichols, he’s the ranch manager at 760 648-7807.  He’s always willing to talk fishing and will tell you the straight scoop. Wes

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The is a good article on fishing in the Owens river in Americal Angler magazine May/June 1998.         Nate Liskov – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone tell me if they have fished at this private ranch in the Sierras? It is above Bishop on the Owens River, and I am curious as to what flies may be effective.  Thanks.

Response:

(Rkru) writes: Can anyone tell me if they have fished at this private ranch in the Sierras? It is above Bishop on the Owens River, and I am curious as to what flies may be effective.  Thanks.

Sure,  taught schools there for about 6 or 7 years including 3 schools there last August. The ranch is an amazing place to fish.  Small alpine (7200 ft. elevation) spring creek with a meandering course, mostly wide open meadow.  Water is slow to medium speed throughout and supports ridiculously large numbers of fish.  It is very dry there, drink lots of water and don’t forget the sunblock. Recently saw an article claiming the Upper Owens had 11,000 fish per mile. That number came from an electro-shock survey in 1985 on the Arcularius Ranch and *does not apply* to the rest of the Upper Owens,  just the ranch section. This huge number includes fingerlings as well as monsters. The public access section of the Upper Owens fishes best in spring during the Rainbow’s spawning run out of Lake Crowley, and again in the fall when the Browns make their run upriver.  June, July and August are tough, although there does seem to be an increase in the resident population in the lower section over the last few years. Just because there are large numbers of fish at the Arc doesn’t mean they’re easy to catch.  Fish are spooky, there is almost no cover throughout most of the river, and you better get an absolute dead drift if you want to catch fish.  Walk softly, be sneaky, and carry a long rod. Many times people fishing at the ranch will tell you that you that "this is the only fly that works".   Not so.  the river is full of insects: #18 – #20 baetis all season, #10 Green Drakes in June and sometimes July, Caddis all season (size 14 to 18), little yellow stones june through September, midges all season, sporadic PMD’s May – July, ants – all season, hoppers sometimes as early as mid-July (more commomly mid-August), scuds – all season (#12 and #16 green and also gray),  crane flys oviposit in late August through mid-September.  The list goes on, but those are most of the important ones.  I had three students, catch 5 fish on five different flys one day there.  They used: #18 PT nymph, #12 olive flashback scud, #20 midge pupa,  #16 olive elk hair caddis, and a #10 Hopper. The crane flys in September are a real kick.  They drag their legs behind them as they oviposit on the water and the trout really bust them.  The trout don’t successfully catch many of them, but not for lack of trying.  Fun to see a fish bust the surface three or four times trying to catch one of them.   You need to skate your imitation across the surface to imitate them and this is about the only time you can catch fish without a dead drift.  Last couple of hours of light is usually the best time for this. Some of the largest fish each year are also taken in low light conditions (early morning, late evening, or just overcast all day) with large streamers. Won’t catch as many fish with streamers, but there are some monsters and many of the really big browns don’t even become active until just before dark. There was huge amount of water that blasted through the Arc a couple of years ago and it scoured the river bottom out and changed a number of the holes.  The Bedsprings Hole which used to be 6 feet deep is now gravelled over.  I think the river is in better shape because of it. Usually the big trout are well hidden and you have to fish the right water to get them. Last year In August there were a lot of very large fish in pretty shallow water.  Found a number of 18 to 20" bows and browns in bathtub or washtub sized depressions near shore last year.  Unusual to find the big trout exposed like that.  Still tough to catch and easily spooked, but you could sight-fish to them. Although Dotty and Ken are no longer hosting the ranch, Bill Nichols, who is now the manager, is extremely knowledgable and helpful.  Don’t hesitate to ask him for tips and pointers if what you’re doing doesn’t work.  He’ll give it to you straight. Enjoy your trip, it’s a great (though challenging) place to fish.                                            Hope this helps,                                                     Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

Response:

Question:

Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (deleted) The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron.

<snip Maybe "Catch and Release Non-Hatchery Reared Fish" wouldn’t fit on the license plate frame. You know very well what Ernie meant. I win lots of debates with my wife by pretending not to understand what she is talking about when she makes a good point, but I am an amateur compared to you. Jeff Runner

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William Loehman wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Black and white arguments are almost always untrue or come down to a strict definition of a word and don’t apply to the real world. Trout can be caught a number of times and still have what is to me , the essence of their wildness: they fear people.  It takes constant daily contact with people and numerous hookups  to over-ride this instinct.  The Juan, The Green & The Pan are the prime samples of this. The fish in these rivers are attracted to wading anglers because of the food they kick up rather than fearing them. This was a necessary adaptation for them in order to survive in the presence of the hoards of fishermen, but make for a very unnatural existance. They are no longer "trout" but trained fish.

I agree with all of this.  However, I still enjoy fishing the San Juan when I take my annual trip.  It may be that pound for pound a truly wild fish would give a better fight than one that’s grown up in the San Juan – but I find that many of the fights I’ve had have been plenty exciting.  I admit that aesthetically I value catching truly wild fish, but I have very little opportunity to do so, and since I’m not a 40 fish a day guy, even on the San Juan, I haven’t become sated by the tailwater-nymphing experience like some have. Perhaps someday I will.  Even so, I still think I’ll support the existence of these kinds of fisheries to accommodate all of the fishers who enjoy it.  I accept the fact that in order to get to ‘purer’ fishing, I’ll have to go to the less accessible places or conform to far more restrictive regulations. —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Not to beat a dead horse, but… Moe Skeeter wrote fiddleaway wrote It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life).  You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason. I do not understand how you can say that…100 is bigger than 1, but 1 is just as valid a number. You seemed to understand as I explained further (see below), but to reiterate; if I take (what seems to be) your definition of wild< – a trout that has had no interaction with humans – then the trout is wild until it is caught the first time (well, I suppose you could say that the trout is wild until it is hooked.  

- forgive guys but the idea that any animal that has interacted with people is ‘no longer wild’ is absurd. As usual what we’ve got is some people getting confused with the basics  of the English Language. The word ‘wild’ can have a number of meanings depending on the context of the statement. So to say a land is wild or even ‘wilderness’ (two different words with different meanings) indicating it is uneffected by the action of man – or more acurately ‘in it’s natutal state’ has zip to do with weather a fish is wild. A couple of years ago my wife and I were on a early morning hike before spending a few hours on our favourite lake. We saw a deer and the deer saw us. Both parties stopped to contemplate each other, the deer not sure what we were up to. My wife and I whispered to each other and we could see the deer’s big ears swivel to pick up our speech. That’s interaction! Did it tame the deer? Does a fish cease to be wild when it’s been hooked and lost? Does it cease to be wild because it has seen a person and fled or conversely has not fled? (as often happens with wild salmon in these parts – you practicaly have to step on them before they retreat downstream.) What we’ve got here is someone trying to use ‘wild’ as a sort of weasel word to continue to condemn c&r. I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness. As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed. Until they swim right to me and roll over to let me stroke their bellies they are wild. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "take_this_out" for email reply

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A couple of years ago my wife and I were on a early morning hike before spending a few hours on our favourite lake. We saw a deer and the deer saw us. Both parties stopped to contemplate each other, the deer not sure what we were up to. My wife and I whispered to each other and we could see the deer’s big ears swivel to pick up our speech. That’s interaction! Did it tame the deer? Does a fish cease to be wild when it’s been hooked and lost? Does it cease to be wild because it has seen a person and fled or conversely has not fled? (as often happens with wild salmon in these parts – you practicaly have to step on them before they retreat downstream.) What we’ve got here is someone trying to use ‘wild’ as a sort of weasel word to continue to condemn c&r. I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness. As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed. Until they swim right to me and roll over to let me stroke their bellies they are wild.

I agree with most of this but the trout in some of our heavilly fished tailwaters do just about what you suggest.  They are attracted to rather than disturbed by wading anglers. They will actually set up feeding stations just downstream of the angler. This IS tamed & trained. Willi

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[some deleted] forgive guys but the idea that any animal that has interacted with people is ‘no longer wild’ is absurd.

You seem to acknowledge ‘degrees’ of wildness…let’s start there. Again, I will quote the current High Priest of Flyfishing Philosphy himself, John Gierach (That is what he is called on the back cover of "Another Lousy Day In Paradise").   Where, when fishing in a spot that had never been fished by anyone, he referred to the fish as "perfectly" wild.  His definition or "Perfectly" Wild was fish that had not been fished for by man. We are *all* on the same page on this score, oui ? I am not saying that a fish C&R-ed is ‘no longer wild’.  I am saying that it is ‘less wild’.  Further, the continued practice of C&R on that same fish will remove the ‘wild’ from it completely and this is clearly evidenced in those heavily fished places where the so called ‘wild’ trout bear no resemblence to the real McCoy. I stick by my guns. "C&R WILD TROUT" *is* an oxymoron. Every time you release it it becomes less and less wild until it is no longer wild.  If you don’t agree with this..well, than you must at least agree that it is (at the very least) *counterproductive* if the goal of C&R’ing fish is to preserve ‘Wild Trout’, which is what people (ostensibly) believe they are doing when they buy the license plate frame for their Orvis Jeep and release 7 pound "park trout" back into the upper Frying Pan river. This is not simple conjecture Ralph. It is hard fact based on empirical observations. A couple of years ago my wife and I were on a early morning hike before spending a few hours on our favourite lake. We saw a deer and the deer saw us. Both parties stopped to contemplate each other, the deer not sure what we were up to. My wife and I whispered to each other and we could see the deer’s big ears swivel to pick up our speech. That’s interaction! Did it tame the

deer? Yes.  In fact you *really* surprise my by this comment.  That animal lose their fear of humans when exposed to them, for example in public campgrounds, and city dumps is a really bad thing and might be fatal for the animal.  If you would have thrown a rock at the deer and chased it with a stick, you would have done it a huge favor, IMO. Even if your wife thinks you’re an asshole for the act. Does a fish cease to be wild when it’s been hooked and lost? Does it cease to be wild because it has seen a person and fled or conversely has not fled? (as often happens with wild salmon in these parts – you practicaly have to step on them before they retreat downstream.)

Every time a fish encounters man and is not killed it becomes less and less wild.  This is pretty clear based on the definition of wild, and apparently, many people agree.   Including The Prophet. What we’ve got here is someone trying to use ‘wild’ as a sort of weasel

word to continue to condemn c&r. Pure C&R is self-condemning, it doesn’t need me. I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness.

*THIS* has been *CLEARLY* established. Like I said Ralphie.  You’ve got no heart.  No feeling for this subject at all.  Why not take up a sport that doesn’t involve the exploitation of Wild Animals, I’ll give you a good homebrew recipe ?  Whaddya say ?  You obviously need a break. As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed.

Bullshit. Do a little experiment Ralphie.   Tie up some milk-bone imitations on a 2/0 Sproat and sight cast to Ms. Wilson’s poodle. What happens when you hook the little beggar ? Oh…I forgot…you live in BC where the Poodles are Wild and the Men have huge plonkers. Until they swim right to me and roll over to let me stroke their bellies they are wild.

Like I said, the invitation to come fish the Frying Pan or the San Juan remains open big boy.  Mitch will guide us and I will be the photographer (I refuse to fish there…10 pound lipless park trout or not). I just hope I can capture the ‘essence’ of your disappointment on film when they roll over and let you stroke their bellies. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Moe Skeeter wrote Ralph H wrote [some deleted] forgive guys but the idea that any animal that has interacted with people is ‘no longer wild’ is absurd. You seem to acknowledge ‘degrees’ of wildness…let’s start there. … John Gierach ….  His definition or "Perfectly" Wild was fish that had not been fished for by man. We are *all* on the same page on this score, oui ?

Everybody step close together and smile for this Kodak moment – I think we can all get behind this, so far. I am not saying that a fish C&R-ed is ‘no longer wild’.  I am saying that it is ‘less wild’.

So far, so good. Further, the continued practice of C&R on that same fish will remove the ‘wild’ from it completely and this is clearly evidenced in those heavily fished places where the so called ‘wild’ trout bear no resemblence to the real McCoy.

Oops! Hyperbole alert!  completely< and no resemblance to the real McCoy<.  Tim’s world view surfaces.  Fine.  We know your values.  Ours are different. (and better of course <g) I stick by my guns. "C&R WILD TROUT" *is* an oxymoron. Every time you release it it becomes less and less wild until it is no longer wild.

In the immortal words of Ronnie, "There you go again!"  It is at best now a very weak oxymoron since a really strong one (like guest host) requires words having strongly opposing values.  "Continued catch & release of a wild fish"…now that’s waxing a little more oxymoronic … but it doesn’t quite have that ring you want for a license plate slogan.  Keep trying though, playing with words is fun, just as long as you don’t take yourself so seriously that you use such games to support serious conclusions. Here’s a good example to get you started:  When you honor a fish by killing and eating it you are exhibiting a cruel kindness<. If you don’t agree with this..well, than you must at least agree that it is (at the very least) *counterproductive* if the goal of C&R’ing fish is to preserve ‘Wild Trout’, which is what people (ostensibly) believe they are doing when they buy the license plate frame for their Orvis Jeep and release 7 pound "park trout" back into the upper Frying Pan river. This is not simple conjecture Ralph. It is hard fact based on empirical observations.

What have you observed other than seeing people return their catch.  This is hardly evidence for the motivations for doing so.  Or have you carried out extensive, scholarly research on the subject?  (The use of the word ‘ostensibly’ makes me think the answer is no). No, it is not counterproductive.  Released fish spawn and their offspring are wild.  Not so for caught fish. I have never assumed that the singular goal of C&R is preserving wild trout.  Although, it does quite nicely in many situations.  For example, if I hike into a less accessible spot and catch trout that (a) have never been caught before or (b) are a tad less wild because they’ve been caught once, then releasing these trout still allows them to be fairly wild (as opposed to dead) and to continue to produce wild offspring.  So no, I do not feel compelled to agree with your imperative.  But keep working at it, my ears are open. Pure C&R is self-condemning, it doesn’t need me.

The fact that you are the only one on ROFF who seems to believe this belies the statement. Convince me otherwise.  (Boy I like that phrase…thanks) I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness. *THIS* has been *CLEARLY* established.

Point taken.  (again)   Like I said Ralphie.  You’ve got no heart.  No feeling for this subject at all.  Why not take up a sport that doesn’t involve the exploitation of Wild Animals, I’ll give you a good homebrew recipe ?  Whaddya say ?  You obviously need a break.

It’s obvious to me from your posts that you are a fairly bright guy, so when I see statements like this I can only think you must be suffering from overindulgence in your own homebrew.  (BTW – telling someone they have no heart, especially after they’ve indicated that they respect what you say, could be construed as a particularly heartless act) Ralph H. wrote As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed. Bullshit.

Sorry, I have you on record (see Kodak moment above) as saying that there are varying degrees of wildness, so your BS is BS (so what else is new?) Like I said, the invitation to come fish the Frying Pan or the San Juan remains open big boy.  Mitch will guide us and I will be the photographer (I refuse to fish there…10 pound lipless park trout or not).

I’ll probably be at the San Juan the 2nd or 3rd week of next October.  If you want, we can meet there and if more than 10% of the fish I catch have injured lips, I’ll give you a hundred bucks and you will give me a hundred bucks if less than 10% have injured lips.  (Exactly 10% will be a push). Plus the loser will submit an appropriately humble posting on ROFF. —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

Response:

I’ll probably be at the San Juan the 2nd or 3rd week of next October.  If you want, we can meet there and if more than 10% of the fish I catch have injured lips, I’ll give you a hundred bucks and you will give me a hundred bucks if less than 10% have injured lips.  (Exactly 10% will be a push). Plus the loser will submit an appropriately humble posting on ROFF.

I’ll take that bet. Willi

Response:

I don’t bet against friends, no matter what the outcome, we both lose. — TimW Halfordian Golfer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll probably be at the San Juan the 2nd or 3rd week of next October.  If you want, we can meet there and if more than 10% of the fish I catch have injured lips, I’ll give you a hundred bucks and you will give me a hundred bucks if less than 10% have injured lips.  (Exactly 10% will be a push). Plus the loser will submit an appropriately humble posting on ROFF. I’ll take that bet.

Response:

Willi,         Don’t you think that this could be classified as being opportuinistic or at least a learned behavior?  If you could find somewhere where a repeated action produced something you were eager to experience(a certain hatch at a certain time at a certain place) that you would learn to be there?  tamed? maybe just taking advantage. jim

To me, a wild animal is tamed when it no longer displays its instinct fear of man.  When people teach animals behavior, they are trained.  We may disagree about definitions, but these "trout" display unnatural behavior. Willi

Response:

As is often the case, a singular action is not bad in and of itself.  It only becomes bad when done to excess (and then of course the term excess becomes the point of controversy).

I agree completely. Black and white arguments are almost always untrue or come down to a strict definition of a word and don’t apply to the real world. Trout can be caught a number of times and still have what is to me , the essence of their wildness: they fear people.  It takes constant daily contact with people and numerous hookups  to over-ride this instinct.  The Juan, The Green & The Pan are the prime samples of this. The fish in these rivers are attracted to wading anglers because of the food they kick up rather than fearing them. This was a necessary adaptation for them in order to survive in the presence of the hoards of fishermen, but make for a very unnatural existance. They are no longer "trout" but trained fish. Willi

Response:

.I take your point about fish that have been caught and released several times.  Take your pick: Would you rather catch 5 lb. trout that have been to school, or 10" hatchery fish?

Neither, one has been trained by man and the other one made by him. I like to fish for fish that at least approach being wild. Willi

Response:

Not to beat a dead horse, but… Moe Skeeter wrote fiddleaway wrote It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life).  You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason. I do not understand how you can say that…100 is bigger than 1, but 1 is just as valid a number.

You seemed to understand as I explained further (see below), but to reiterate; if I take (what seems to be) your definition of wild< – a trout that has had no interaction with humans – then the trout is wild until it is caught the first time (well, I suppose you could say that the trout is wild until it is hooked.  So, even the act of landing the wild trout would be oxymoronic.  However, I think this sophistry is quickly becoming simply moronic).  Bottom line, the primary way you distinguish yourself from other flyfishers with regard to resource management is what you do with a wild trout after< it’s caught.  So, my point is, verbiage aside, catching a wild trout the first time is not oxymoronic.  Catching it a second time would be (given your definition of wild). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, according to your definition, a wild trout can only be caught once .. whether it is released or eaten, it ceases to be a wild trout upon catching. so far so good… Now I’ll grant you that once a wild trout is caught, it’s fair to say that it is no longer wild so I guess its then fair to say that ‘release’ and ‘wild trout’ are oxymoronic.  But no less oxymoronic than saying, "Tonight I’m serving wild trout for dinner." I don’t rememember seeing "Tonight I am Serving Wild Trout For Dinner" License plate frames or as a slogan for our national fisheries management coalition…<g… (but…I like the sound of it and might have some printed up….HEY LICENSE FRAME DUDE !!! WHERE ARE YOU ???) It fits very neatly with the "Halfordian Golfer" theme.

I think its fair to attribute such a statement to you (especially since you like the sound of it).  And my point that such a statement is just as oxymoronic as "Catch and Release a Wild Trout" stands.  So if it’s oxymorons that lead to the decline of fisheries ( a strange notion…Caused by the mold?  -see below) you’re just as guilty as those who champion the release of wild trout. But, you’re shooting yourself in the foot and contradicting your first argument.   If the FIRST time is a freebie and it is still purely wild, it IS a wild trout whenn you kill and eat it.

No, you are contradicting your argument.  If it’s wild when you kill it, then its wild when you release it.  Ergo, no oxymoron.  The oxymoron exists for both or for neither. Now…eating Wild Trout…is that a bad thing ?  Of course not.   I mean…in colorado a valid management phrase could be… "EAT A WILD BROOKIE…SAVE A NATIVE CUTTHROAT".

As is often the case, a singular action is not bad in and of itself.  It only becomes bad when done to excess (and then of course the term excess becomes the point of controversy).  Catching and releasing a wild trout…is that a bad thing?  You< must say no, if I understand your SH method correctly (if a slot limit is used to implement it, for example). My point?  Neither your assertion of the goodness of a singularity nor your claim of oxymoronic practice distinguishes C&R from SH.  (With regard to wild fish…your definition of wild). As far as I know, Ernie was talking mainly about catching wild trout that meet your definition (never caught before).  Much the same attitude some guys have about virgins, I guess. Well, he *is* doing the same thing to them….<g

The picture this paints was worth the whole thread.  LMAO.  (Sorry Ernie – I’m sure you can counter with a clever rejoinder) Claiming that an oxymoron is somehow counter-productive to having real Wild Trout is the kind of statement one might expect from one having the fertile mind of a fruitcake Actually,  if you leave fruitcake lying around, molds will grow…unless it is rum soaked.  Someone said that’s how they knew Christmas was over….you mistake your fruitcake for your ghia pet.

At least you don’t have to worry about going bald. —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

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[deleted] Now if want to look at a phrase that’s oxymoronic and invented by an oxymoron just think of ‘pure catch and release’

I must say that this attack on our use of the phrase Pure C&R for purposes of discussion around here to be really frustrating.  It is fairly obviously simply an attempt at accuracy. Also, I must point out that it was not me that originally coined it…although I did adopt it at as fairly obvious and positive contribution to the discussion.   It has served the discussion really well, IMO, it is just that Anesthesized Testicles himself (Jimbo) doesn’t like it…truth is I don’t know what Jimbo likes as the only thing he ever posts are bitches about me. Oh…BTW – I like your disclaimer ralph… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

 It has served the discussion really well, IMO, it is just that Anesthesized Testicles himself (Jimbo) doesn’t like it…truth is I don’t know what Jimbo likes as the only thing he ever posts are bitches

I suppose we can assume (ouch) he likes that! Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Ernie Harrison wrote [snip] The best recipe for wild trout is to coat them with flour and corn meal and fry them over the camp fire.    

Don’t forget the butter! —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

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Ernie Harrison wrote [snip] The best recipe for wild trout is to coat them with flour and corn meal and fry them over the camp fire. Don’t forget the butter!

C’mon SPRING ! — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise.

It’s not an oxymoron. Let’s say you’re on a wilderness river.  You catch a native trout that’s never seen a fly or even a fisherman’s shadow.  It’s wild, right?  OK, we’re halfway there. Now you release it.         Steve Barnard I take your point about fish that have been caught and released several times.  Take your pick: Would you rather catch 5 lb. trout that have been to school, or 10" hatchery fish?

Response:

Yes.  Fried.  In butter. Fishie fishie in the brook, Daddy catch ‘em on a hook. Momma fry ‘em in a pan, Baby eat ‘em like a man. I know, today, "Daddy" and "Momma" and "man" are interchangable, but it’s an old bit of poetry. Prometheus, no doubt out of pity for shivvering humans stuck with eating raw fish, stole fire from the gods on Mt. Olympus and gave us earthlings this warm present.  Somebody invented the skillet, somebody the wheel. Now, we get in our buggies and roll out to the creek or the lake and bring home FOOD.  To cook. Perhaps those who consider themselves higher than this, beyond this, holier than this, belong not with humans, but with the gods–who felt no pity for humans.   Ethically, morally, rationally, philosophically, NATUR-ALLY, anti-fishers, anti-eaters,  seem to lack understanding of what life’s all about for us poor mortals.  They seem to have no true feelings for humans OR for (other) animals.  They seem to be not nature lovers, but to see themselves as above nature, a holy lot, and so are in the way here, and belong in heaven, as Mark Twain said of those who do not repent of the "good" they try to do.   Love nature?  Love fish?  Love animals?  And still eat them?  Of course we go.  They give us milk, butter, meat, clothing.   And just as Prometheus had to swipe fire from Mt. Olympus, so must we yet continue to wrestle these "gifts" from the self-elected gods of today. Honestly, I try to understand all points of view, but I admit to discomfort in the company of  the self-righteous. Jess Thompson

Response:

Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (not hatchery), but I don’t want you to get the idea that I never eat one or would try to tell you not to.  I don’t like the idea of filling the freezer with wild trout to take home with you.  We all have pictures of our ancestors standing beside 50 dead trout with a big smile on their face.  There are days when you could seriously deplete the trout population in a stream with a fly rod and fly.  We spend enough money to buy the fish in a store by the time we get to the stream, so we must be fishing for the experience, not the food. The best recipe for wild trout is to coat them with flour and corn meal and fry them over the camp fire.     — Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes.  Fried.  In butter. Fishie fishie in the brook, Daddy catch ‘em on a hook. Momma fry ‘em in a pan, Baby eat ‘em like a man. <snip Honestly, I try to understand all points of view, but I admit to discomfort in the company of  the self-righteous. Jess Thompson

Response:

Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (deleted)

The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron. Perhaps the ultimate oxymoron. It is not unlike "Break and Release of a Wild Horse". Think hard. What *is* a wild trout ?  A trout born and raised in "The Wild". What  *is* The Wild ?  Nature as God left it without the interference of man. Every time man visits the wild it is a little less wild. Every road or trail built into wilderness, it is a little less wild. and yes… Every time you catch and release a wild trout, it is less wild than it was before. If you *honestly* seek truth, this would be a pretty inescapable one. Consider: The fish are so used to people on The Frying Pan river now, that a careful stalk is less important than an exact imitation of the natural.  This is *EXACTLY* opposite of what fishing in Wilderness, to Wild Trout, is.   Yet, you see the "Catch and Release Wild Trout" License plate frames on virtually all of the SUV’s and mini-vans in The Parking Lot. This irony drives me mad ! On The Frying Pan river, I once landed a +5 LBS Wild Trout (Your words, not mine) in the current on 7X and a #20 biot emerger. This was no wild trout, I contend, as this would be impossible with a real 5 pound wild trout fighting for its life. But that’s just it, isn’t it ? The trout are not fighting for their life, not after being released a half a dozen times.  They come to hand like old boots up there. The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Moe Skeeter wrote The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron.

[clever argument snipped] The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise.

It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life).  You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason. But, according to your definition, a wild trout can only be caught once … whether it is released or eaten, it ceases to be a wild trout upon catching.  Now I’ll grant you that once a wild trout is caught, it’s fair to say that it is no longer wild so I guess its then fair to say that ‘release’ and ‘wild trout’ are oxymoronic.  But no less oxymoronic than saying, "Tonight I’m serving wild trout for dinner." As far as I know, Ernie was talking mainly about catching wild trout that meet your definition (never caught before).  Much the same attitude some guys have about virgins, I guess. Claiming that an oxymoron is somehow counter-productive to having real Wild Trout is the kind of statement one might expect from one having the fertile mind of a fruitcake Convince me otherwise. —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address

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… The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise.

Well, Tim, you just have to consider humans as *part of* the wild!                            - jqt –

Response:

It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life).  You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason.

I do not understand how you can say that…100 is bigger than 1, but 1 is just as valid a number. But, according to your definition, a wild trout can only be caught once … whether it is released or eaten, it ceases to be a wild trout upon catching.

so far so good… Now I’ll grant you that once a wild trout is caught, it’s fair to say that it is no longer wild so I guess its then fair to say that ‘release’ and ‘wild trout’ are oxymoronic.  But no less oxymoronic than saying, "Tonight I’m serving wild trout for dinner."

I don’t rememember seeing "Tonight I am Serving Wild Trout For Dinner" License plate frames or as a slogan for our national fisheries management coalition…<g… (but…I like the sound of it and might have some printed up….HEY LICENSE FRAME DUDE !!! WHERE ARE YOU ???) It fits very neatly with the "Halfordian Golfer" theme. But, you’re shooting yourself in the foot and contradicting your first argument.   If the FIRST time is a freebie and it is still purely wild, it IS a wild trout whenn you kill and eat it. Now…eating Wild Trout…is that a bad thing ?  Of course not.   I mean…in colorado a valid management phrase could be… "EAT A WILD BROOKIE…SAVE A NATIVE CUTTHROAT". As far as I know, Ernie was talking mainly about catching wild trout that meet your definition (never caught before).  Much the same attitude some guys have about virgins, I guess.

Well, he *is* doing the same thing to them….<g Claiming that an oxymoron is somehow counter-productive to having real Wild Trout is the kind of statement one might expect from one having the fertile mind of a fruitcake

Actually,  if you leave fruitcake lying around, molds will grow…unless it is rum soaked.  Someone said that’s how they knew Christmas was over….you mistake your fruitcake for your ghia pet. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout"  *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise. Well, Tim, you just have to consider humans as *part of* the wild!

OK..Big boy, what does Wild and Wilderness mean …? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (deleted) The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron. Perhaps the ultimate oxymoron. It is not unlike "Break and Release of a Wild Horse". Think hard. What *is* a wild trout ?  A trout born and raised in "The Wild". What  *is* The Wild ?  Nature as God left it without the interference of man.

if a wild trout is as you describe then "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is not oxymoronic regardless if the fish has been caught the first time or the fifth time. However ‘wild’ means untamed or not domesticated or specifically ‘not requiring the hand of man to survive.’ That’s why a horse; an equine species domesticated and bred by man can be wild. Naturally spawned cutts in the little creek on my mother-in-laws property are wild even though the land is not or the fact me and my kids prick their lips from time to time. Kokanee is Colorado are another matter and clearly are not wild. Now if want to look at a phrase that’s oxymoronic and invented by an oxymoron just think of ‘pure catch and release’ ;^) Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Question:

i need ideas for flys i can use to catch a muski on a fly rod. all help will be much appreciated.                               hopefully helped,                                                    coolcat913

Response:

I need idaes (help) on fly patterens or just flys to use to catch a muski on a fly rod. i’ve had little help on this matter from some  people, books, and web sits I ethier read or talked to. so anything you can tell me will be much much appericated!                                   Hopfully helped,(by you)                                                             coolcat913  

Response:

i need ideas for flys i can use to catch a muski on a fly rod. all help will be much appreciated.

        Here’s some help (hopely)… You should have flies to control all necesary depths (0-6ft). On this page got good flies, <AHREF="http://www.telusplanet.net/public/cnangler/html/<A/

Response:

I have had most success with whooper-sized Dahlberg Divers.  Use long trailing tail of flashbou,a nd you may want to tie a trailer hook into the fly  (see saltwater rigs).  Bunny strips are excellent too, tied as streamers. — Indy http://realindy.com

Response:

Visit a comprehensive web site for western Montana fly fishing.  The site offers descriptions and maps of local waters, articles from guides and outfitters and an extensive primer for teaching fly fishing to loved ones. Additionally, the site offers a tour of many of the top fly shops, outfitters and lodging. http://www.montana.com/flyfishing

Response:

An article by Dave Odell on the Bitterroot River and one by Dave Archer on guiding/outfitting are particularly good.  These guys know their stuff.  They have both been guiding for close to twenty years in western Montana. – Charlie Miller – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Visit a comprehensive web site for western Montana fly fishing.  The site offers descriptions and maps of local waters, articles from guides and outfitters and an extensive primer for teaching fly fishing to loved ones. Additionally, the site offers a tour of many of the top fly shops, outfitters and lodging. http://www.montana.com/flyfishing

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Question:

I would advise against wrapping any guide that’s bigger than you.  -AR

Response:

If you use no color preserver, you take away the option of ever replacing a guide if you need to.  There is no way to remove the wrap without destroying the blank.

Bad advice here!  It is actually quite easy to remove a guide wrapped with non-NCP thread.  Done correctly, there will be no damage to the blank.  Simply cut through the wrap and epoxy with a single edge razor.  Slice along the guide foot to help avoid nicking the blank. Once you get started, simply slip your fingernail under the wrap and it will peel off.  No problem. I think your mass production types are more interested in eliminating a step from the manufacturing process (properly applied and allowed to dry, color preserver would add about 24 hours) than blending the color of the thread into the blank.

Actually, I think most manufacturers use non-NCP because most buyers prefer the look. You are correct however that the wrap will be stronger when the epoxy finish is applied without color preserver.  OTOH, I’ve been told that when properly done, the wrap alone should provide all the strength required to hold the guide on the rod and you should not rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap.

It is true that you should never rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap, but then you would always use a finish, so whether the thread wrap alone would be strong enough over time to hold the guide is academic.  Go for the strongest wrap you can and use non-NCP thread except for trim rings. Lyman Lyman G. Hughes Dallas, TX Ennis, MT

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bad advice here!  It is actually quite easy to remove a guide wrapped with non-NCP thread.  Done correctly, there will be no damage to the blank.  Simply cut through the wrap and epoxy with a single edge razor.  Slice along the guide foot to help avoid nicking the blank. Once you get started, simply slip your fingernail under the wrap and it will peel off.  No problem. Actually, I think most manufacturers use non-NCP because most buyers prefer the look. It is true that you should never rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap, but then you would always use a finish, so whether the thread wrap alone would be strong enough over time to hold the guide is academic.  Go for the strongest wrap you can and use non-NCP thread except for trim rings.

Great post, Lyman. My 15 years of building custom fly rods for myself, others, and commercially confirm everything you’ve said. In my rod repairs, I have never encountered a situation where blank damage has occurred when removing a guide, even on rods that had been wrapped 25 years ago. It just takes care and patience. I use standard thread with no color preservers on 90% of the rods I build. The bottom line is this technique is the best way to obtain a wrap that closely matches the color of the blank. This "stealthiness" has invaded the fly rod industry. Just take a look at Sage’s new SP line or Winston’s IM6 rods and you’ll see why the process looks so good. Ryan

Response:

If you use no color preserver, you take away the option of ever replacing a guide if you need to.  There is no way to remove the wrap without destroying the blank. Bad advice here!  It is actually quite easy to remove a guide wrapped with non-NCP thread.  Done correctly, there will be no damage to the blank.  Simply cut through the wrap and epoxy with a single edge razor.  Slice along the guide foot to help avoid nicking the blank. Once you get started, simply slip your fingernail under the wrap and it will peel off.  No problem.

Are you kidding?  What kind of "epoxy" are you using?  When applied without color preserver the finish soaks through the thread and comes into direct contact with the blank.  I have encountered no epoxy that will "peel off" of anything. Every time I’ve tried what you mention, the thread/finish combination has turned into a solid mass.  I’ve tried exactly what you describe and cut along the guide foot with a razor.  When I pulled off the guide (with much effort) the rest of the wrap/finish stayed right where it was and left a nice solid wrap with a trench gug out where the guide foot had been.

Response:

I used straight epoxy with no color preserve and had my rod spinner break down during the night. I woke up wih big bellies in all my wraps. I just cut them off fairly easily with a rasor and re-wrapped the whole rod. It wasn’t a big project to remove the old wrappings.

Response:

Quoting "DavidC.Benjamin"<dcb from a message in rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    <I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for    <guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point    <I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied    <with the results when finished. David – If you use non-NCP thread withoput applying color preserver it will become somewhat transparent when you apply the rod finish.  How transparent will depend on the color thread used.  If you look at some  factory rods its easy to see which brands do not use color preserver as the guidefeet show thru the wraps.  If you use color preserver the non-NCP thread will have a sparkley coloring as opposed to the flatter colors of the NCP thread.  It’s really personal preference which you prefer more. Jim Carlisle

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there?

I think many of the major fly rod manufacturers use non-NCP thread with no color preserver. This is not the way they finish those cool convetional salt water sticks. You will get a transparent result with no color preserver on standard thread. This gives them a clean look with the thread blending with the blank and also allows the epoxy to penetrate the thread better to bond with the blank. I have been selling rod building supplies for over 30 years and have heard almost every story imaginable. If someone has better info I will not be shocked as I have been wrong before. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there? I think many of the major fly rod manufacturers use non-NCP thread with no color preserver. This is not the way they finish those cool convetional salt water sticks. You will get a transparent result with no color preserver on standard thread. This gives them a clean look with the thread blending with the blank and also allows the epoxy to penetrate the thread better to bond with the blank. I have been selling rod building supplies for over 30 years and have heard almost every story imaginable. If someone has better info I will not be shocked as I have been wrong before. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

But… If you use no color preserver, you take away the option of ever replacing a guide if you need to.  There is no way to remove the wrap without destroying the blank. I think your mass production types are more interested in eliminating a step from the manufacturing process (properly applied and allowed to dry, color preserver would add about 24 hours) than blending the color of the thread into the blank. You are correct however that the wrap will be stronger when the epoxy finish is applied without color preserver.  OTOH, I’ve been told that when properly done, the wrap alone should provide all the strength required to hold the guide on the rod and you should not rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there? I think many of the major fly rod manufacturers use non-NCP thread with no color preserver. This is not the way they finish those cool convetional salt water sticks. You will get a transparent result with no color preserver on standard thread. This gives them a clean look with the thread blending with the blank and also allows the epoxy to penetrate the thread better to bond with the blank. I have been selling rod building supplies for over 30 years and have heard almost every story imaginable. If someone has better info I will not be shocked as I have been wrong before. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

I always use color preservative to provide the ability to replace the guide (it WILL happen) and to seal the underwrap/blank wrap. In addition I find that the application of epoxy is easier (resulting in a much better finish) since I don’t have to hunt for gaps in the thread (the preserver fills it in). Of course as you say there are a million stroies and a million ways …. "The true angler is always content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo

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Using that dark thread on a similarly-colored blank, you shouldn’t have any trouble.  I build a lot of salt-water "standup" tuna rods on black Seeker blanks, and use medium blue non-NCP A thread for base wraps.  It works fine–as does the even lighter grey "gunmetal" thread I’m now using on a pair of Shakespeare Ugly Sticks.  Just be careful to use enough coats of color preserver, and soak all of the wrap.  I usually use 3 coats half-strength and 2 coats full strength (Clemens "Brilliance" brand) before applying the epoxy coats.  If you see "bleed-through" with the color preserver that doesn’t disappear when the preserver dries, you have a problem.  Redo that wrap.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there?

There is a very good chance that the thread will become somewhat transparent when you apply epoxy.  The way to solve this problem is to use colour preserver.  One of the best brands available in my opinion is U40 Color Lock.   I think you will be pleased with regular thread over NCP thread.  This type of thread has stronger highlights when used with color preserver, and I think looks much better than NCP.  As well, an added bonus is that Regular thread is a little stronger than NCP as well it is not as porous, therefore, you will not have the same bubble problems that may occur with NCP. Ian Scott Wishbone Custom Rods http://www.headwaters.com/wishbone

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I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there?

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Question:

In about a month, five of us will be leaving Kennedy Meadows to make the loop a little beyond Emmigrant lake, around Twin Lakes, and back, for a week’s trip. Anybody made the loop, or packed in the area? Any suggestions as to route, specific lakes to hit, for no crowds, and fair fishing? Thanks in advance.

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In about a month, five of us will be leaving Kennedy Meadows to make the loop a little beyond Emmigrant lake, around Twin Lakes, and back, for a week’s trip. Anybody made the loop, or packed in the area? Any suggestions as to route, specific lakes to hit, for no crowds, and fair fishing? Thanks in advance.

  I backpack in the Emigrant Wilderness often but I have’t done the emigrant loop yet.  Like anywhere else the deeper you hike the fewer the people.  You will probablly still see horse packers around.  The fishing should be great. I’ve fished in the easily reached lakes before and had no problem catching trout on a fly and have heard the fishing is better the deeper you go. Crawdad

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Question:

When in doubt, go with the fun stuff. Buy the fishing outfit. Chances are you’ll use it more and longer. Mike T. — WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Club & Race Listings 200+ listings. Advertise your race. Club Home Pages. http://www.catalog.com/webrun/running/running.html

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Neither–Get yourself a good set of Golf clubs! Everone has taken up flyfishing, and the courses are almost empty. For exercise, carry your own clubs and jog,that"ll keep that ticker pumpin.There are beautiful courses everywhere,except Idaho.The chemists have destroyed the good grass in that state, with all those potato experiments. This is a joke–Don’t want to piss off any Idaho golfers.

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I have both.  Believe me, I can cast a lot farther with a fly rod.

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My birthday is in a couple of days and I expect to get some money.  I have decided to give due regard to the advice from the good folks at rec.running and rec.outdoors.fishing.fly. Where to spend my money?

Two answers:         When you are older and your lower body is a cantidate for complete skeleton replacement from marathoning your hips, ankles, and knees into mush. You will really appreciate the first-class fly rig. A heart rate monitor will just be junk by then.         Flip a coin. If you dislike the outcome you’ll know you’ve been playing a game with yourself.                 Bob

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I am a novice marathoner who fishes.  I’ve run one marathon this year (Napa Valley) and would like to improve my time for the Portland Marathon by using a heart rate monitor.  I also enjoy fishing.  I have some backpacking fly equipment but I would like to let my elitest-self shine with a real fly fishing outfit. Where to spend my money? Steve, run out and buy yourself a fly fishing outfit… David E. Malone All opinions expressed are my own.

Steve, Its apparant your training is suffering from a lack of obsession. I refer you to Calvin and Hobbes from about two weeks ago.  T Training with a monitor lets you micro  analyze your pperformance with the goal being to satisy such standards as your training log and other people who wear monitors. Also there’s a coolness factor related to who might be impressed by the purchases.  Fish or friends?   I have trained with a monitor for a year.  Has it helped?  Got me. It is a diversion and something to do on those long runs. Steve Rogers When the going gets tough, blah, blah, blah

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[deleted] : My birthday is in a couple of days and I expect to get some money.  I : have decided to give due regard to the advice from the good folks at : rec.running and rec.outdoors.fishing.fly. Neither…buy a pair of Reabok Pumps and go fishing…then, if you fall in, your feet will float up and someone will be able to spot you. Tim Walker

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You ask whether to buy a heart rate monitor or a fly fishing outfit? Definitely the flyfishing outfit.  Enjoying it will lower your heart rate

Just don’t start flyfishing in the midst of the heavy hatches…you may end it all holding your breath for that monster to suck  in YOUR fly instead of the natural inches from it. Steve D.

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I am a novice marathoner who fishes.  I’ve run one marathon this year (Napa Valley) and would like to improve my time for the Portland Marathon by using a heart rate monitor.  I also enjoy fishing.  I have some backpacking fly equipment but I would like to let my elitest-self shine with a real fly fishing outfit. Where to spend my money?

Look to the future and buy the fly rod.  I have a sister and two brothers who ran marathons and they are now virtually crippled (not  really, but they get sore knees).  I have flyfished instead for 25 years and feel as good as ever. Watch your backcast on that elitist stuff. Believe it or not, this can be the cheapest way to fish other than zebco and hand dug bait. I fished for years with a $10 St.croix and $2 reel and flies tied mostly from free knitting samples.   Now that I have some disposable income I do my best to keep a few local fly shops in business, but fancy tackle adds little to the value of the experience of getting a mile or ten away from the crowds and finding some wild trout, then tricking them, admiring their brilliant beauty, then releasing or cooking them. I think the heartrate monitor is just going to cause you excess worry about the fine tuning of your body, but does this really relax you?    What does it add to your life?   How does it relate to your future personna as geezer? If you start flyfishing regularly now, you’ll have a great recreational life that will last as long as you will.  Youngsters will much rather hear your fishing stories than running stories.  By flyfishing you can do your part to honor your elders while preparing youself to become a great one. This youth stuff is just a passing trend; give up holding onto it and go fishing!  You have  little chance of winning any major marathons but a virtual guarantee of mastering our fine sport, since you have email. You can get that same sense of well-being and accomplishment by hiking half that far and fishing a day or two.  If you really crave that burn, drive over to the east side of the sierra in late July or August this year and hike straight up to 11,000 ft and fish for Goldens. If you still aren’t tired, carry my pack too. Once the runoff settles down this will be a great year here in California. Get the fly rod. mark vinsel Visit my gallery: http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.HTML

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: [deleted] : : My birthday is in a couple of days and I expect to get some money.  I : : have decided to give due regard to the advice from the good folks at : : rec.running and rec.outdoors.fishing.fly. : Neither…buy a pair of Reabok Pumps and go fishing…then, if you : fall in, your feet will float up and someone will be able to spot you. And if the shoes don’t fit, Reebok Pumps make dandy strike indicators. Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

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Get both. Many new runners pack up when they find that it takes discipline and effort to get fit. There are many HRMs lying dormant in people homes unused. I’ve just bought one for 10 pounds second hand. Look in your local paper I’m sure you’ll find one. Simon — Simon Walsh    

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: Wierd title?  So is my dilemma: : I am a novice marathoner who fishes.  I’ve run one marathon this year : (Napa Valley) and would like to improve my time for the Portland : Marathon by using a heart rate monitor.  I also enjoy fishing.  I have some : backpacking fly equipment but I would like to let my elitest-self shine : with a real fly fishing outfit. : My birthday is in a couple of days and I expect to get some money.  I : have decided to give due regard to the advice from the good folks at : rec.running and rec.outdoors.fishing.fly. : Where to spend my money? : Steve My vote is for the flyfishing gear.  As a bonus I offer you my "cheap" heart rate monitor:   If you’re breathing, its beating.  If you’re not breathing, it’s probably stopped (or will shortly). (sippinElkMountainAmberAleandrootinfortheBarracudainLongBeachCalifornia wheretheearthmovesundermyfeet)

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: Neither–Get yourself a good set of Golf clubs! Everone has taken up : flyfishing, and the courses are almost empty. For exercise, carry your : own clubs and jog,that"ll keep that ticker pumpin.There are beautiful : courses everywhere,except Idaho.The chemists have destroyed the good : grass in that state, with all those potato experiments. : This is a joke–Don’t want to piss off any Idaho golfers. Hey, hey, hey!!!  Whatchit buddy.  This state still has the fighting words law.  That means I can bust you in the chops for saying such things and all the cops will do is make fun of your glass jaw or my right hook! Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

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Wierd title?  So is my dilemma: I am a novice marathoner who fishes.  I’ve run one marathon this year (Napa Valley) and would like to improve my time for the Portland Marathon by using a heart rate monitor.  I also enjoy fishing.  I have some backpacking fly equipment but I would like to let my elitest-self shine with a real fly fishing outfit. My birthday is in a couple of days and I expect to get some money.  I have decided to give due regard to the advice from the good folks at rec.running and rec.outdoors.fishing.fly. Where to spend my money? Steve

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I am a novice marathoner who fishes.  I’ve run one marathon this year (Napa Valley) and would like to improve my time for the Portland Marathon by using a heart rate monitor.  I also enjoy fishing.  I have some backpacking fly equipment but I would like to let my elitest-self shine with a real fly fishing outfit. Where to spend my money?

Steve, run out and buy yourself a fly fishing outfit… David E. Malone All opinions expressed are my own.

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If you often overtrain, get the HRM.  If you need more protein, get the fishing equipment.  Otherwise, you’ll just have to decide for yourself. — Ray Charbonneau    | MIT Library Systems| Everyone is entitled to my opinion.  *Disclaimer? Why?*|

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Buy the fly fishing gear and go have fun.  You’ll be more relaxed for your training and will in turn run farther and faster.  Besides, I’ve not yet met a marathon runner who has trained with a heart rate monitor, so I’m sure you can train hard enough to improve your time without one.   Buy the heart rate monitor next year, and don’t go out too fast in Portland, as the crowds during the first part of the race might make you go faster than you should. Best fishes, Dan

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You ask whether to buy a heart rate monitor or a fly fishing outfit? Definitely the flyfishing outfit.  Enjoying it will lower your heart rate so low you won’t have to worry about a heart rate monitor…..

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