Question:

You know yore from Arkansas if:

Oh palms thankyou for a great laugh. Jeanne

Response:

This is very funny – I have already forwarded it to some friends! Helen

Helen me too. LOL Jeanne

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is very funny – I have already forwarded it to some friends! Helen You know yore from Arkansas if: 34. Your working TV sits on top of your non-working TV. I thought that was Ashtabula, Ohio.

  Nonsense – they’re much classier in Ashtabula. Ghoulagirl. "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."                                         – Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Star Wars".

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is very funny – I have already forwarded it to some friends! Helen You know yore from Arkansas if: 34. Your working TV sits on top of your non-working TV. I thought that was Ashtabula, Ohio. Marley Hey, I *like* Ashtabula! Nancy

You *know* Astabula???  I like Jefferson. Marley

Response:

You know yore from Arkansas if: 1. You take your dog for a walk and you both use the same tree.

BTDT 18. You’ve been involved in a custody fight over a hunting dog.

BTDT but not a hunting dog. 23. You know how many bales of hay your car will hold.

Yup. 24. You have a rag for a gas cap.

BTDT And I’m from NY.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know yore from Arkansas if: 1. You take your dog for a walk and you both use the same tree. BTDT 18. You’ve been involved in a custody fight over a hunting dog. BTDT but not a hunting dog. 23. You know how many bales of hay your car will hold. Yup. 24. You have a rag for a gas cap. BTDT And I’m from NY.

Gasp!  Your last name’s not "Clinton", is it? P2P

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is very funny – I have already forwarded it to some friends! Helen You know yore from Arkansas if: 34. Your working TV sits on top of your non-working TV. I thought that was Ashtabula, Ohio. Marley Hey, I *like* Ashtabula! Nancy You *know* Astabula???  I like Jefferson. I spent the night in an old hotel in Ashtabula once, though I forget why.  It was nice, kinda like stepping into 1956 Mayberry.  I kept waiting for Aunt Bea in her apron to bring out more hot rolls and home made jam from the kitchen.

Is Ashtabula on the coast, by any chance? I have a vague memory of hearing it mentioned on a local radio station when we were on board ship, on the east coast. Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nancy "Well if you think I am going to stand for this lying down, you had better think again!"      Celeste  12/30/96

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I spent the night in an old hotel in Ashtabula once, though I forget why.  It was nice, kinda like stepping into 1956 Mayberry.  I kept waiting for Aunt Bea in her apron to bring out more hot rolls and home made jam from the kitchen. Is Ashtabula on the coast, by any chance? I have a vague memory of hearing it mentioned on a local radio station when we were on board ship, on the east coast. No, Ashtabula is inland, in a small time warp located in northeastern Ohio.  If there’s any water involved, it might be the "coast" of Lake Erie, but I don’t really remember and I’m too lazy to haul out my atlas to even check to see if I’ve got the right lake.  BTW, years ago Lake Erie was such a joke that it could barely qualify as being a body of water–I mean, it was wet like water, but it did catch fire at least once.  I hear it’s better now… Nancy

Yes, it’s on Lake Erie and even has a port, though I seriously doubt any real ships ever land there.  It also has a beach, which a least when I was hanging there, was a blacktop parking lot.  The city is the drug capital of the world and many strange characters inhabited the area.  One afternoon I was staking out a suspected killer (don’t ask!) when I noticed I’d locked my keys in my car.  oh oh.  A whole crowed of nice Baltic immigrants offered assistance with coat hangers.  It was rather humiliating and halted my career in professional snooping for years to come. Marley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

<snip I once ran into a group of Baltic immigrants on a beach, and for some unknown reason the men all seemed to be wearing their Speedo-type swimsuits backwards.  It was *not* a nice effect, no matter how dapper they seemed to think they looked.

*They* must have invented THONGS!!!! LOL Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nancy "Well if you think I am going to stand for this lying down, you had better think again!"      Celeste  12/30/96

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I spent the night in an old hotel in Ashtabula once, though I forget why.  It was nice, kinda like stepping into 1956 Mayberry.  I kept waiting for Aunt Bea in her apron to bring out more hot rolls and home made jam from the kitchen. Is Ashtabula on the coast, by any chance? I have a vague memory of hearing it mentioned on a local radio station when we were on board ship, on the east coast. No, Ashtabula is inland, in a small time warp located in northeastern Ohio.  If there’s any water involved, it might be the "coast" of Lake Erie, but I don’t really remember and I’m too lazy to haul out my atlas to even check to see if I’ve got the right lake.  BTW, years ago Lake Erie was such a joke that it could barely qualify as being a body of water–I mean, it was wet like water, but it did catch fire at least once.  I hear it’s better now… Nancy Yes, it’s on Lake Erie and even has a port, though I seriously doubt any real ships ever land there.  It also has a beach, which a least when I was hanging there, was a blacktop parking lot.  The city is the drug capital of the world and many strange characters inhabited the area. You mean…Aunt Bea?  OH NOOOOOoooo…  I thought that was homemade jam…

I don’t remember any Aunt Bea’s but there were some whacked out locals. One afternoon I was staking out a suspected killer (don’t ask!) I actually did that once myself.  Just once.  I got into it without entirely understanding the situation, and I got tired of it really quickly.

I was working on a capital murder retrial.  We won but the real killer walked anyway.  He was supposedly the bastard son of one of the local chiefs of police and a snitch. when I noticed I’d locked my keys in my car.  oh oh.  A whole crowed of nice Baltic immigrants offered assistance with coat hangers.  It was rather humiliating and halted my career in professional snooping for years to come. I once ran into a group of Baltic immigrants on a beach, and for some unknown reason the men all seemed to be wearing their Speedo-type swimsuits backwards.  It was *not* a nice effect, no matter how dapper they seemed to think they looked. Nancy

Oh, please . It’s very late here. I spent a few hours on a train  once with some Estonian women in sweaters adorned with gold lame tigers. Marley Marley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Well if you think I am going to stand for this lying down, you had better think again!"      Celeste  12/30/96

Response:

You know yore from Arkansas if: 1. You take your dog for a walk and you both use the same tree. 2. You can entertain yourself for more than an hour with a fly swatter. 3. Your property has been mistaken for a recycling center. 4. Your boat has not left the driveway in 15 years. 5. You burn your yard rather than mow it. 6. You think the Nutcracker is something you did off the high dive. 7. The Salvation Army declines your mattress. 8. Your entire family sat around waiting for a call from the governor to spare a loved one. 9. You offer to give someone the shirt off your back and they don’t want it. 10. You have the local taxidermist on speed dial. 11. You come back from the dump with more than you took. 12. You keep a can of Raid on the kitchen table. 13. Your wife can climb a tree faster than your cat. 14. Your grandmother has "Ammo" on her Christmas list. 15. You’v! ! e been kicked out of the zoo for heckling the monkeys. 16. You think a subdivision is part of a math problem. 17. You’ve bathed with flea and tick soap. 18. You’ve been involved in a custody fight over a hunting dog. 19. Your kids take a siphon hose to show and tell. 20. You think a hot tub is a stolen indoor plumbing fixture. 21. You took a fishing pole to Sea World. 22. You go to the stock car races and don’t need a program. 23. You know how many bales of hay your car will hold. 24. You have a rag for a gas cap. 25. Your father executes the "Pull my finger" trick during Christmas dinner. 26. Your house doesn’t have curtains but your truck does. 27. You wonder how service stations keep their restrooms so clean. 28. You can spit without opening your mouth. 29. You consider your license plate personalized because your father made it. 30. Your lifetime goal is to own a fireworks stand. 31. You sit on your roof at Christmas! ! time hoping to fill your deer quota. 32. You have a complete set of salad bowls and they all say Cool Whip on the side. 33. The biggest city you’ve ever been to is Wal-Mart. 34. Your working TV sits on top of your non-working TV. 35. You thought the Unabomber was a wrestler. 36. You’ve used your ironing board as a buffet table. 37. You think a quarter horse is that ride in front of K-Mart. 38. Your neighbors think you’re a detective because a cop always brings you home. 39. A tornado hits your neighborhood and does a $10,000 worth of improvement. 40. You’ve used a toilet brush as a back scratcher. 41. You’ve asked the preacher "How’s it hangin’?" 42. You missed 5th grade graduation because you had jury duty. 43. You think fast food is hitting a deer at 65 mph. 44. Somebody tells you that you’ve got something in your teeth and you take them out to see what it is. P2P

Response:

22. You go to the stock car races and don’t need a program.

Uh-Oh!! 23. You know how many bales of hay your car will hold.

Double Uh-Oh!! Becky Young ….Though nothing can bring back the hour of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower, We will grieve not; rather find strength in what remains behind — William Wordsworth

Response:

You know yore from Arkansas if:

snip 39. A tornado hits your neighborhood and does a $10,000 worth of improvement.

  This one struck me as really funny for some reason – ROR! Ghoulagirl. "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."                                         – Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Star Wars".

Response:

This is very funny – I have already forwarded it to some friends! Helen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know yore from Arkansas if: 1. You take your dog for a walk and you both use the same tree. 2. You can entertain yourself for more than an hour with a fly swatter. 3. Your property has been mistaken for a recycling center. 4. Your boat has not left the driveway in 15 years. 5. You burn your yard rather than mow it. 6. You think the Nutcracker is something you did off the high dive. 7. The Salvation Army declines your mattress. 8. Your entire family sat around waiting for a call from the governor to spare a loved one. 9. You offer to give someone the shirt off your back and they don’t want it. 10. You have the local taxidermist on speed dial. 11. You come back from the dump with more than you took. 12. You keep a can of Raid on the kitchen table. 13. Your wife can climb a tree faster than your cat. 14. Your grandmother has "Ammo" on her Christmas list. 15. You’v! ! e been kicked out of the zoo for heckling the monkeys. 16. You think a subdivision is part of a math problem. 17. You’ve bathed with flea and tick soap. 18. You’ve been involved in a custody fight over a hunting dog. 19. Your kids take a siphon hose to show and tell. 20. You think a hot tub is a stolen indoor plumbing fixture. 21. You took a fishing pole to Sea World. 22. You go to the stock car races and don’t need a program. 23. You know how many bales of hay your car will hold. 24. You have a rag for a gas cap. 25. Your father executes the "Pull my finger" trick during Christmas dinner. 26. Your house doesn’t have curtains but your truck does. 27. You wonder how service stations keep their restrooms so clean. 28. You can spit without opening your mouth. 29. You consider your license plate personalized because your father made it. 30. Your lifetime goal is to own a fireworks stand. 31. You sit on your roof at Christmas! ! time hoping to fill your deer quota. 32. You have a complete set of salad bowls and they all say Cool Whip on the side. 33. The biggest city you’ve ever been to is Wal-Mart. 34. Your working TV sits on top of your non-working TV. 35. You thought the Unabomber was a wrestler. 36. You’ve used your ironing board as a buffet table. 37. You think a quarter horse is that ride in front of K-Mart. 38. Your neighbors think you’re a detective because a cop always brings you home. 39. A tornado hits your neighborhood and does a $10,000 worth of improvement. 40. You’ve used a toilet brush as a back scratcher. 41. You’ve asked the preacher "How’s it hangin’?" 42. You missed 5th grade graduation because you had jury duty. 43. You think fast food is hitting a deer at 65 mph. 44. Somebody tells you that you’ve got something in your teeth and you take them out to see what it is. P2P

Response:

This is very funny – I have already forwarded it to some friends! Helen You know yore from Arkansas if: 34. Your working TV sits on top of your non-working TV.

I thought that was Ashtabula, Ohio. Marley

Response:

Question:

Try rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying — Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

There is an excellent fly-tying course at http://www.flyanglersonline.com TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

I sort of agree with the kit concept….granted some things are sub-par….but you have to have decided you want to tie and be getting ‘into’ it before you have the knowledge that the things ‘are’ sub par. there are different grades of kits, and you usually get a vidoe or book or two to help you get started….. To a person who knows they want to tie…..piecemeal…..to the curious or don’t forget the local groups like the one you missed…..there are usually more than just Trout Unlimited….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a catch 22 here…If you buy a beginners kit, it is cheap and if you decide tying is not for you, you only loose a few bucks.  However the tools are also cheap and that can make tying difficult and annoying.  On the other hand, good tools are a pleasure to use however they can be pricey. If possible, get a friend to let you tie or at your local fly shop.  If you like it, invest in a nice vice and bobbin. There is an excellent video series on PBS called "flytying, the anglers art".  You might try to hunt it down.  That’s how I learned to tie. gang, last fall I found out that our local TU chapter was going to offer a free fly tying course in the Jan/Feb time-frame and provide all the materials to anyone that was interested.  I asked them to email me when they finalized the dates and a couple of the guys that ran the meeting agreed.  To make a long story short, I never got an email and when I finally found out about the course, it was already in the 4th week so I figured I missed all the basic stuff and blew it off (my own fault, of course, I should have been checking on it instead of relying on being notified). Now that I’ve been fishing again for a month, I’m really regretting missing that course and wondering if I could teach myself with a tying kit and a good book or video.  I realize it would probably not be a good way to learn, but I don’t know anyone that ties and there are no scheduled courses anywhere near me that I’m aware of. Can anyone recommend a good learners kit and/or setup that would get me started?  If I’m just asking for trouble and should bag the idea please let me know that too! Tim

Response:

If it is a full coat of a reasonable ( light) colour, consider cutting it up and dyeing it. Mink makes excellent dubbing, and the guard hairs ( these are the longer hairs )  may be used for hair-wings etc.  Cut into strips they make excellent zonker patterns etc. It might however be a good idea to try selling the coat as it is, you may find that the proceeds will keep you in fly-dressing materials for a long time. By the way, mink skins are cheap and easy to come by, any furrier will give you a bundle of them for next to nothing, mink coats seldom are ! TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Buying materials separately is usually a much better and more economical idea. Have a look at my site, ( address is in the sig line) there is a little bit about starting fly-dressing there. TL MC

I printed your tool list and will take it shopping.  Makes sense to buy the correct amount of the right material.  Now I have to decide what to do with this full length mink coat.  I have had it for years and my new bride doesn’t want it.  She has already released it for tying material.  Maybe eel or leach patterns with mink strips?  Maybe I can make up a couple of mink reel pouches! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Decide what you want to tie, look up the materials necessary. Buy these. Buy a Thompson pro vice, a good pair of scissors, a ceramic bobbin holder and a pair of medium hackle pliers.  A needle glued into a piece of dowel with epoxy, makes a good dubbing needle, and is also used for applying varnish ( head cement) to flies.  Start with simple flies. There are some very good kits on the market, but these are invariably quite expensive, and will contain stuff you do not need. Also the amount of certain materials is usually less than you need for a couple of dozen flies. Buying materials separately is usually a much better and more economical idea. Have a look at my site, ( address is in the sig line) there is a little bit about starting fly-dressing there. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Can anyone recommend a good learners kit and/or setup that would get me started?  If I’m just asking for trouble and should bag the idea please let me know that too!

The Art of Fly Tying CD-ROM is only $20 these days (www.feather-craft.com).  You don’t need a kit.  Thompson Pro is a good beginner’s vise and will last a long time.  Many experienced tiers still use theirs.  You have fished for a year now so should have a good idea of what flies you commonly use.  Buy the materials you need for those flies and you will be in good shape.  Start with simple flies like wooly buggers or hare’s ear nymphs.  Do you trust the guys at the local fly shop?  They should be able to get you pointed in the right direction. Mu Mu

Response:

 Dr. Slick sounds familiar but I can’t place the name.

Cabela’s has them, as well as most fly shops. — Charlie…

Response:

Oh BTW I’ve found it very handy to also have a pair with a serrated edged for tougher stuff.  Mine are cheaper than my "fine" ones and work fine. YMMV — Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

Equipment caveat:   Avoid the cheapo kits.   Get decent stuff.   If you buy a cheapo kit, your chances of having a positive result are reduced, and you’ll end up throwing it all out because nobody else wants it.   Spend twice as much on decent stuff, and if you don’t like it, you can sell it for half what you paid on Ebay.   You’re out the same amount of money either way.

Joe, I’m getting lots of good advice here and am leaning toward buying a kit just because I really don’t have anyplace closeby to buy it peice by peice and I can order one from somewhere like Orvis or Cabela’s. What would you consider to be a good kit and not a "cheapo" kit? I also really like the idea of the CD and am going to see if I can find it somewhere. Tim

Response:

At least one pair of fine top quality scissors is more or  less essential for fine work on the flies themselves.  For everything else normal scissors will do. Keep your fine scissors only for fine work, and do not cut any rough materials or wire with them, and they will last a long time. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Check out the Wiss scissors, which I’ve seen in other stores besides fly shops – made for sewers I guess.  There’s a picture on this page: http://www.mwflytying.com/tools/fav_tools.html *Disclaimer: I haven’t used them, I just think they look cool and I’m about to buy some myself.

I have a couple pair of Wiss scissors, a larger one I use for sewing projects and a small one I’ve used for fly tying for many years.  Very high quality at a reasonable price.

Response:

I have some but prefer Dr. Slick (scissors that is). — Charlie…

You find those at medical supply/pharmacy houses, fly tying material shops, hardware stores, or fabric shops?  Dr. Slick sounds familiar but I can’t place the name. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

A pharmaceutical fly shop?…..bet he’s got leaves from bushes to chew on to – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My top tip – get good scissors.   Nothing is worse that trying to make that close cut with dull, shitty scissors. Joe F. I just spent some time on Mike Connor’s site.  I think I’ll take up "fly dressing" instead of "fly tying", sounds much prettier.  Mike makes the same point about the scissors.  I’ll be dropping by Harry Murray’s fly shop tomorrow when Dianna and I are on the way up to Big Stoney Creek for trout.  Harry is a pharmacist and runs the fly shop and pharmacy together.  Perhaps I can compare surgical scissors and "fly dressing" scissors. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Check out the Wiss scissors, which I’ve seen in other stores besides fly shops – made for sewers I guess.  There’s a picture on this page: http://www.mwflytying.com/tools/fav_tools.html *Disclaimer: I haven’t used them, I just think they look cool and I’m about to buy some myself.

I have some but prefer Dr. Slick (scissors that is). — Charlie…

Response:

We do have a question though.  What about the quality of the scissors being offered out there.  Do we need the speciality scissors or are there commonly available scissors doing the same or better job?

Check out the Wiss scissors, which I’ve seen in other stores besides fly shops – made for sewers I guess.  There’s a picture on this page: http://www.mwflytying.com/tools/fav_tools.html *Disclaimer: I haven’t used them, I just think they look cool and I’m about to buy some myself. Regards, Jeff

Response:

….What about the quality of the scissors being offered out there…..

I have no idea of what is offered with kits Wayne, and I suppose that there is a wide variety of types and quality sold in fly shops.  What really matters is that they have fine points, are well made of quality material, and that they fit your fingers.  The most convenient place to look for scissors that will meet these criteria is a fabric shop.  Sewers use a variety of scissors and they come in all sizes.  If you’re looking for something more specialized, your local veterinarian or a friend who works at a hospital can turn you on to a bewildering array.

Response:

Tim,      I have recently taught myself to tie.  I bought a kit, and I’m not upset that I did.  It gave me a vise, scissors, bobbin, threader, hooks and some materials.  Granted, this stuff isn’t the greatest quality but it got me started.  The next thing I did was purchase a book by Skip Morris, Fly Tying made Clear and Simple.  This book is great.  It can teach anyone to tie.  Now that I am better I am ready to upgrade my vise, but the one from the kit has done just fine.  When you catch your first fish on a fly you tied yourself, it is all worth it! I highly recommend the Skip Morris book, it has very thorough step by step instructions and great pictures for each step.  It is also spiral bound, so that it stays open easily.  What I did was bought the book, picked the first few patterns, went to my fly shop and bought the things I needed to tie those. Came home and worked on those few patterns, when I got them down, I  went on to the next few patterns, went to the shop for the materials  etc…That way I didn’t have to drop hundreds of dollars at once.  I have really enjoyed it and am sure you will too. Have fun with your new hobby, J. Day

Response:

My top tip – get good scissors.   Nothing is worse that trying to make that close cut with dull, shitty scissors. Joe F.

I just spent some time on Mike Connor’s site.  I think I’ll take up "fly dressing" instead of "fly tying", sounds much prettier.  Mike makes the same point about the scissors.  I’ll be dropping by Harry Murray’s fly shop tomorrow when Dianna and I are on the way up to Big Stoney Creek for trout.  Harry is a pharmacist and runs the fly shop and pharmacy together.  Perhaps I can compare surgical scissors and "fly dressing" scissors. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Can anyone recommend a good learners kit and/or setup that would get me started?  If I’m just asking for trouble and should bag the idea please let me know that too!

I received a Christmas gift last year of a computer CD "The Art of Fly Tying" that has a lot of video clips and audio instruction on various techniques.   It’s actually pretty cool.   I’m a beginner myself, and I did take a short course from a local shop the year before, but I thought the CD showed a lot of the same stuff (more, actually) just as well, and in some cases better (close up shots).   There is no substitute for in-person instruction for feedback, evaluation, and troubleshooting; but if you have no other option, I’d recommend the CD. Equipment caveat:   Avoid the cheapo kits.   Get decent stuff.   If you buy a cheapo kit, your chances of having a positive result are reduced, and you’ll end up throwing it all out because nobody else wants it.   Spend twice as much on decent stuff, and if you don’t like it, you can sell it for half what you paid on Ebay.   You’re out the same amount of money either way.   My top tip – get good scissors.   Nothing is worse that trying to make that close cut with dull, shitty scissors. Joe F.

Response:

I sort of agree with the kit concept….granted some things are (snip)

Due to a happy turn of events my wife and I have recently begun to look at fly tying.  We will be picking up some basic beginner books and canvassing some local tiers for "hands on" assistance.  At least one local fly shop offers "custom kits" made to suit your skill level and the type of fly you wish to tie.  They even offer "specialty kits" to tie specific flys.  I think we will read and watch and try a few basic flys.  This winter we will attend one of the many fly tieing classes being offered. We do have a question though.  What about the quality of the scissors being offered out there.  Do we need the speciality scissors or are there commonly available scissors doing the same or better job? — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Hi Tim, I bought a kit when I first started to learn to tie, that was a mistake. Go down to your local shop and buy a vice, scissors, and a bobbin. You can add to your tools as you see fit. Then ask the guy behind the counter what materials you need to tie the types of flies that you use most, and buy the materials to tie them. Also ask him to recommend a book. I taught myself how to tie and while I’m not the greatest, I do catch fish (occasionally) on my flies. When you buy a kit, you get materials that you may never use. I still have some stuff from my kit and I’ve been tying for about 8 years now. HTH, Darin

Response:

There is a catch 22 here…If you buy a beginners kit, it is cheap and if you decide tying is not for you, you only loose a few bucks.  However the tools are also cheap and that can make tying difficult and annoying.  On the other hand, good tools are a pleasure to use however they can be pricey.  If possible, get a friend to let you tie or at your local fly shop.  If you like it, invest in a nice vice and bobbin. There is an excellent video series on PBS called "flytying, the anglers art".  You might try to hunt it down.  That’s how I learned to tie.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – gang, last fall I found out that our local TU chapter was going to offer a free fly tying course in the Jan/Feb time-frame and provide all the materials to anyone that was interested.  I asked them to email me when they finalized the dates and a couple of the guys that ran the meeting agreed.  To make a long story short, I never got an email and when I finally found out about the course, it was already in the 4th week so I figured I missed all the basic stuff and blew it off (my own fault, of course, I should have been checking on it instead of relying on being notified). Now that I’ve been fishing again for a month, I’m really regretting missing that course and wondering if I could teach myself with a tying kit and a good book or video.  I realize it would probably not be a good way to learn, but I don’t know anyone that ties and there are no scheduled courses anywhere near me that I’m aware of. Can anyone recommend a good learners kit and/or setup that would get me started?  If I’m just asking for trouble and should bag the idea please let me know that too! Tim

Response:

My uncle gave me his 1950 Herters fly set-up a couple a years ago.  I have been learnin’ ever since.  But a starter kit, a few books on the subject, and just start tryin’. Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – gang, last fall I found out that our local TU chapter was going to offer a free fly tying course in the Jan/Feb time-frame and provide all the materials to anyone that was interested.  I asked them to email me when they finalized the dates and a couple of the guys that ran the meeting agreed.  To make a long story short, I never got an email and when I finally found out about the course, it was already in the 4th week so I figured I missed all the basic stuff and blew it off (my own fault, of course, I should have been checking on it instead of relying on being notified). Now that I’ve been fishing again for a month, I’m really regretting missing that course and wondering if I could teach myself with a tying kit and a good book or video.  I realize it would probably not be a good way to learn, but I don’t know anyone that ties and there are no scheduled courses anywhere near me that I’m aware of. Can anyone recommend a good learners kit and/or setup that would get me started?  If I’m just asking for trouble and should bag the idea please let me know that too! Tim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – gang, last fall I found out that our local TU chapter was going to offer a free fly tying course in the Jan/Feb time-frame and provide all the materials to anyone that was interested.  I asked them to email me when they finalized the dates and a couple of the guys that ran the meeting agreed.  To make a long story short, I never got an email and when I finally found out about the course, it was already in the 4th week so I figured I missed all the basic stuff and blew it off (my own fault, of course, I should have been checking on it instead of relying on being notified). Now that I’ve been fishing again for a month, I’m really regretting missing that course and wondering if I could teach myself with a tying kit and a good book or video.  I realize it would probably not be a good way to learn, but I don’t know anyone that ties and there are no scheduled courses anywhere near me that I’m aware of. Can anyone recommend a good learners kit and/or setup that would get me started?  If I’m just asking for trouble and should bag the idea please let me know that too! Tim

Response:

gang, last fall I found out that our local TU chapter was going to offer a free fly tying course in the Jan/Feb time-frame and provide all the materials to anyone that was interested.  I asked them to email me when they finalized the dates and a couple of the guys that ran the meeting agreed.  To make a long story short, I never got an email and when I finally found out about the course, it was already in the 4th week so I figured I missed all the basic stuff and blew it off (my own fault, of course, I should have been checking on it instead of relying on being notified). Now that I’ve been fishing again for a month, I’m really regretting missing that course and wondering if I could teach myself with a tying kit and a good book or video.  I realize it would probably not be a good way to learn, but I don’t know anyone that ties and there are no scheduled courses anywhere near me that I’m aware of. Can anyone recommend a good learners kit and/or setup that would get me started?  If I’m just asking for trouble and should bag the idea please let me know that too! Tim

Response:

Question:

Michael,    I think this group has determined that fly size is more important than color.  Of course presentation is important but that is not a characteristic of the fly. Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do you think??   We need a good, ON-TOPIC bloodbath on this group, and we haven’t had one in quite a while. Michael Roegner

Response:

Dave,    I would rather have a glass of beer.  We know that colors darken when wet, and that the fish is usually looking at a back lighted object.  We are not certain what light spectrum the fish sees.  The impression the fly makes when sitting on the water or trapped bubbles on a rising insect are probably more important than the exact shade of the insect.  The more you know about the insect the more likely you are to tie a good imitation.  The beer is handy for sipping while tying.  The real test of the fly will come when you present it to the fish. Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess that from a lot of posts on here lately (thanks for all the great info) that I should include a glass of water at my bench when I tie. And a specimen of the fly itself. Dave

Response:

I would use a photo, the colors of bugs disappear in minutes after death.   I guess that from a lot of posts on here lately (thanks for all the great info) that I should include a glass of water at my bench when I tie. And a specimen of the fly itself. Dave "M

Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

Response:

Dale –         You’re not nuts at all, although I suspect that the reason why they turn the color of the rocks doesn’t really derive from the "rocks they eat".  

I was wondering if anyone would else would comment on this. This conjured up the image of some robotic like insects chewing up rocks.           That having been said – I’m going to drop a pretty major bombshell here in the hopes of sparking some discussion.  I have found that precise pattern, precise coloration, etc., is generally pointless in most (if not all) flyfishing.   What I’ve generally found is that just about ANY fairly representative pattern will catch as many, and as large, fish as the most perfectly colored, precisely matched pattern.  

I’ve brought this topic up in the past and not much interest was generated. In fact one poster said he couldn’t think of anything more boring. (I guess talking about someone’s underwear etc. has more interest to this person) I pretty much agree with you. Presentation is where it’s at. Fly size however, is VERY important. Pattern type is next i.e.. up wing, down wing, emerger, etc. Color is not very important. An exception to this is with heavily fished C&R waters, especially in tailwaters with their limited range of insect types. Some fish in these places can become hyperselective to pattern and color. This is just one of the peculiarities these fish exhibit.         What does make a difference?   Presentation is a major issue, being careful not to spook the fish,  observation of their feeding patterns,  ability to spot fish, knowledge of where they’re likely to hold, and patience.   If you cover those items, you’ll usually find that you can catch fish just fine with a pattern that doesn’t do such a precise job of matching the naturals.

My advice to new anglers is to spend less time on changing flies and more time on making a good presentation. Stalk a fish to get closer, change position, make more or different mends, change tippet length or size, add or remove weight etc. etc. etc. Correct presentation is a very broad and complex topic. It’s the most difficult of the skills in flyfishing.         I have a theory about all this – the myth that you have to match the naturals so precisely was created primarily to catch FISHERMEN rather than FISH.  And it has worked well, primarily because its always easier to tell yourself that "If I only had color X, or pattern Y, I’d be catching fish"  than it is to recognize that your own skills are what need improvement.

I also think that searching for the "perfect" fly is futile. I’ve never run into the situation where there was a "right" fly although some other posters here swear they have been in this situation. I fish mainly a range of different styles of flies in a range of sizes rather than specific patterns. I probably use about 4 different styles 90% of the time. Willi

Response:

Some may think I’m nuts about this also, but I think some of the color of the bugs is determined by the color of rocks they eat.

Bugs eat rocks? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Good points Ernie and Harry, and some of the best looking dry fly’s on the water IMHO that I tie are Compara-dun’s out of "Compara-hatch" booklet by Caucci/Nasatsi. Easier to tie than the traditional ones for me, what is the consensus on compare vs. traditional here, besides the traditional might be better on slower water?

I like Compara dun style better for slower water.  I especially like them using CDC for the wing instead of deer. It’s my usual choice for mayfly feeding fish on flat water. They can also be changed to an emerger at streamside by flattening the wing along the back.  You can fish them dry, damp or wet. Versital fly. Willi

Response:

How many feathers do you use for the wing ? What kind of tailing, now that I’m ask a million questions.;-)   I like this pattern as well but it floats for only a short period, in my experence. I think the tailing is very important  with slow water bugs and CDC. I like Compara dun style better for slower water.  I especially like them using CDC for the wing instead of deer. It’s my usual choice for mayfly feeding fish on flat water. They can also be changed to an emerger at streamside by flattening the wing along the back.  You can fish them dry, damp or wet. Versital fly. Willi

Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On those that I’ve examined, the thorax is sort of a cream with dun mixed in and the abdomen is an olive with rust and the wings definitely a medium to dark dun. Like I’ve always said, nothing in nature is monotone… it’s always a mixture of colors and that’s why the best dubbing is blended from different materials and colors.  You never get exact matches and day-to-day, you’ll find the naturals in differing shades, depending on the weather, natural lighting conditions, time of day they hatch and other variables. Also keep in mind, the color of your imitation is influenced by reflected light, how wet the materials get and other factors as well, so what comes off the vise is likely to look drastically different when it’s on the water….. and especailly when it’s viewed from beneath the water by a creature with a highly different vision system. Others? Larry #:)#

______  You make an excellent point Larry and its the same one I’ve offered for many years.  The wise fly tier will always "test-dress" a bit of sample dubbing or a fly at the fly tying bench with the fly dressing of their choice.  There is no sense in having a Light Cahill turning into a Dark Cahill after it gets wet beyond the desired shade required.  Of course my favorite choice shows the shade changes perfectly because it duplicates how the fly will look on the water to a finicky trout, and lets face it, there are more and more finicky, experienced, trout then ever before. Again Larry, I agree with you.  If it isn’t perfect at the bench, it won’t be perfect astream. Mr.G.

Response:

Some may think I’m nuts about this also, but I think some of the color of the bugs is determined by the color of rocks they eat. For an example if the rocks are primaily granite their main color might take on a light pink effect as well as all the other colors. Big Dale

Response:

Dale –         You’re not nuts at all, although I suspect that the reason why they turn the color of the rocks doesn’t really derive from the "rocks they eat".   I would expect that it has more to do with protective coloration – an insect has a much better chance of surviving to reproduce if their predators can’t pick them out against the background colors.         That having been said – I’m going to drop a pretty major bombshell here in the hopes of sparking some discussion.  I have found that precise pattern, precise coloration, etc., is generally pointless in most (if not all) flyfishing.   What I’ve generally found is that just about ANY fairly representative pattern will catch as many, and as large, fish as the most perfectly colored, precisely matched pattern.  This is an area of special interest for me, and I frequently test it by switching patterns to a off-color or more general pattern while my buddies obsess on "matching the hatch".   There doesn’t seem to be any difference at all.             What does make a difference?   Presentation is a major issue, being careful not to spook the fish,  observation of their feeding patterns,  ability to spot fish, knowledge of where they’re likely to hold, and patience.   If you cover those items, you’ll usually find that you can catch fish just fine with a pattern that doesn’t do such a precise job of matching the naturals.         I have a theory about all this – the myth that you have to match the naturals so precisely was created primarily to catch FISHERMEN rather than FISH.  And it has worked well, primarily because its always easier to tell yourself that "If I only had color X, or pattern Y, I’d be catching fish"  than it is to recognize that your own skills are what need improvement.           What do you think??   We need a good, ON-TOPIC bloodbath on this group, and we haven’t had one in quite a while.                                         Michael Roegner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Some may think I’m nuts about this also, but I think some of the color of the bugs is determined by the color of rocks they eat. For an example if the rocks are primaily granite their main color might take on a light pink effect as well as all the other colors. Big Dale

Response:

…         What do you think??  

I’ll pull out the weasel words on this one. While I tend to agree most of the time, I’ve been in situations, rarely, where a precise match would catch fish and no other fly would. I don’t remember the name of the stream but it’s just outside Jackson, WY. One of the toughest places I’ve ever fished. They were taking Callibaetis spinners and that was IT. Another data point is fishing Joe’s Hoppers on Slough Creek. So long as the fly was whole I had no trouble catching those big, dumb cutts but as soon as the turkey wing got just the least bit separated it was like turning off the lights. Put on a new hopper and the lights come back on. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I guess that from a lot of posts on here lately (thanks for all the great info) that I should include a glass of water at my bench when I tie. And a specimen of the fly itself. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On those that I’ve examined, the thorax is sort of a cream with dun mixed in and the abdomen is an olive with rust and the wings definitely a medium to dark dun. Like I’ve always said, nothing in nature is monotone… it’s always a mixture of colors and that’s why the best dubbing is blended from different materials and colors.  You never get exact matches and day-to-day, you’ll find the naturals in differing shades, depending on the weather, natural lighting conditions, time of day they hatch and other variables. Also keep in mind, the color of your imitation is influenced by reflected light, how wet the materials get and other factors as well, so what comes off the vise is likely to look drastically different when it’s on the water….. and especailly when it’s viewed from beneath the water by a creature with a highly different vision system. Others? Larry #:)# ______  You make an excellent point Larry and its the same one I’ve offered for many years.  The wise fly tier will always "test-dress" a bit of sample dubbing or a fly at the fly tying bench with the fly dressing of their choice.  There is no sense in having a Light Cahill turning into a Dark Cahill after it gets wet beyond the desired shade required.  Of course my favorite choice shows the shade changes perfectly because it duplicates how the fly will look on the water to a finicky trout, and lets face it, there are more and more finicky, experienced, trout then ever before. Again Larry, I agree with you.  If it isn’t perfect at the bench, it won’t be perfect astream. Mr.G.

Response:

Good points Ernie and Harry, and some of the best looking dry fly’s on the water IMHO that I tie are Compara-dun’s out of "Compara-hatch" booklet by Caucci/Nasatsi. Easier to tie than the traditional ones for me, what is the consensus on compare vs. traditional here, besides the traditional might be better on slower water? Dave (Harry great photo’s on your site) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would use a photo, the colors of bugs disappear in minutes after death. I guess that from a lot of posts on here lately (thanks for all the great info) that I should include a glass of water at my bench when I tie. And a specimen of the fly itself. Dave "M Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

Response:

On those that I’ve examined, the thorax is sort of a cream with dun mixed in and the abdomen is an olive with rust and the wings definitely a medium to dark dun. Like I’ve always said, nothing in nature is monotone… it’s always a mixture of colors and that’s why the best dubbing is blended from different materials and colors.  You never get exact matches and day-to-day, you’ll find the naturals in differing shades, depending on the weather, natural lighting conditions, time of day they hatch and other variables. Also keep in mind, the color of your imitation is influenced by reflected light, how wet the materials get and other factors as well, so what comes off the vise is likely to look drastically different when it’s on the water….. and especailly when it’s viewed from beneath the water by a creature with a highly different vision system. Others? Larry #:)#

Response:

______  Dear Pete: I suppose, one of the main flies in my arsenal is indeed various sizes of the "Blue Winged Olive Dun."  In fact, the majority of my finest flies that I tie are from the exact patterns as described in Ernie Scwiebert’s masterful work, "Matching The Hatch."  I personally think no fly fisherman would find themselves wanting on any stream in the United States if he tied up a half dozen of every fly in this magnificent book.  It is the base of my entire fly collection that I carry in my vest for the last 44 years! The Blue Winged Olive Duns along with the Iron Duns are perhaps the mainstay of a starting line on most streams, early in the season, especially the Iron Blue Dun on a river such as the Frying Pan, Gunnison, Blue River, Fire Hole, and the list goes on.  The Blue Winged Olive Dun has a total range across the United States from New York State, westward beyond Montana. I would suggest that these ‘Steak and Potato’ flies be best researched and tied out of the classic volume I have just mentioned.  I don’t think any fly fisherman could do better regarding descriptions and the basic history of some of the finest flies used on the American Continent. To wit:  Thank You Mr. Ernie Schwiebert. Mr. G.

Response:

Funny – we’re using the same name for different insects. In Europe the Blue Winged Olive is the anglers name for the Ephemerella ignita. From May to September – don’t leave home without it! Some nice pics at: http://www.fishing-in-wales.co.uk/wildlife/insects/upwing/bwolive.htm Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … From what I understand, BWO is a fisherman’s term that describes a number of different species of mayflies. … Bluewinged Olive is the fishermen’s name for the subimago of several Baetis spp. and Pseudocloeon spp. and the subimago Ephemerella flavilinea. What I call "the little grey ones". — Ken Fortenberry

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

[snip] Also keep in mind, the color of your imitation is influenced by reflected light, how wet the materials get and other factors as well, so what comes off the vise is likely to look drastically different when it’s on the water….. and especailly when it’s viewed from beneath the water by a creature with a highly different vision system.

Is he talking about Louie?

Response:

Excellent book and excellent fly.  Perfect for Colorado and New Mexico streams. Well said, Mr. G DP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ______  Dear Pete: I suppose, one of the main flies in my arsenal is indeed various sizes of the "Blue Winged Olive Dun."  In fact, the majority of my finest flies that I tie are from the exact patterns as described in Ernie Scwiebert’s masterful work, "Matching The Hatch."  I personally think no fly fisherman would find themselves wanting on any stream in the United States if he tied up a half dozen of every fly in this magnificent book.  It is the base of my entire fly collection that I carry in my vest for the last 44 years! The Blue Winged Olive Duns along with the Iron Duns are perhaps the mainstay of a starting line on most streams, early in the season, especially the Iron Blue Dun on a river such as the Frying Pan, Gunnison, Blue River, Fire Hole, and the list goes on.  The Blue Winged Olive Dun has a total range across the United States from New York State, westward beyond Montana. I would suggest that these ‘Steak and Potato’ flies be best researched and tied out of the classic volume I have just mentioned.  I don’t think any fly fisherman could do better regarding descriptions and the basic history of some of the finest flies used on the American Continent. To wit:  Thank You Mr. Ernie Schwiebert. Mr. G.

Response:

Aside from the "bad weather fly" part (must be a western thing – we get ‘em all the way up through Maine even on really nice days)

It might be an altitude/sun thing ie. sun more intense at higher altitude. Out West cloud cover really makes a difference. They will hatch out on sunny days but much better with cloud cover.  If you’re on the stream on a sunny day and you get a period of cloud cover, even for a relatively short period of time, the hatch intensifies and the fish will start feeding.  When the sun comes out the whole thing stops. I’ve been on the river during partly cloudy days and have see this cycle repeated all day long. Willi

Response:

Hi Guys, I was on the Lower Kings River the other day and I picked up what was defined to me as a BWO or blue wing olive.  This was the first actual specimen I had ever seen.  Upon close examination, the thorax showed up to be what I would describe as a light yellowish olive or even a very light lime green color.  The wings were the standard gray which I believe is also called dun color. I tied up a few in the same color (from memory) using the parachute style, and they came out pretty nice after a few tries.  In speaking with a bud regarding this fly, he stated that he thought the thorax is often other colors such as gray, bluish or yellow.  Not that I doubt him, but I have not found any materials which show me other variations of the blue wing olive. I don’t see blue wing yellows or blue wing grays either. <g Any thoughts on this topic? Pete

Response:

BWO’s do vary in the color of the body as well as the shade of gray of the wing. They also vary in size. On a given river, these differences are usually seasonal. As a whole they tend to get smaller as the season goes on. In the Spring, they will be of a size 16 or 18. By late Fall and Winter they will be down to a 20 or 22. Different watersheds also have different BWO’s. From what I understand, BWO is a fisherman’s term that describes a number of different species of mayflies. The commonality is a gray wing and a body with some olive tones in it. The body often has other colors in it including: gray, yellow, rust, brown. cream etc. When tying them I generally blend an olive with several other colors. Most of the time, I prefer a parachute or paradun style. BWO’s are a "bad weather" fly.  They hatch heaviest on overcast days. In the Rockies, the BWO’s are the most consistent Mayfly.  They will hatch every month, even in mid Winter during a warm spell. Just before runoff, there are some very strong hatches on cloudy days that provide some excellent surface fishing. The hatches also seem to get stronger again in the Fall. Most of the time, I prefer a parachute or paradun style. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Guys, I was on the Lower Kings River the other day and I picked up what was defined to me as a BWO or blue wing olive.  This was the first actual specimen I had ever seen.  Upon close examination, the thorax showed up to be what I would describe as a light yellowish olive or even a very light lime green color.  The wings were the standard gray which I believe is also called dun color. I tied up a few in the same color (from memory) using the parachute style, and they came out pretty nice after a few tries.  In speaking with a bud regarding this fly, he stated that he thought the thorax is often other colors such as gray, bluish or yellow.  Not that I doubt him, but I have not found any materials which show me other variations of the blue wing olive. I don’t see blue wing yellows or blue wing grays either. <g Any thoughts on this topic? Pete

Response:

And I always thought it meant "Budwiser With Onionrings" I guess I’ll have more room in my vest next time out for flies Dave ( the book is on my wish list, thanks George) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ______  Dear Pete: I suppose, one of the main flies in my arsenal is indeed various sizes of the "Blue Winged Olive Dun."  In fact, the majority of my finest flies that I tie are from the exact patterns as described in Ernie Scwiebert’s masterful work, "Matching The Hatch."  I personally think no fly fisherman would find themselves wanting on any stream in the United States if he tied up a half dozen of every fly in this magnificent book.  It is the base of my entire fly collection that I carry in my vest for the last 44 years! The Blue Winged Olive Duns along with the Iron Duns are perhaps the mainstay of a starting line on most streams, early in the season, especially the Iron Blue Dun on a river such as the Frying Pan, Gunnison, Blue River, Fire Hole, and the list goes on.  The Blue Winged Olive Dun has a total range across the United States from New York State, westward beyond Montana. I would suggest that these ‘Steak and Potato’ flies be best researched and tied out of the classic volume I have just mentioned.  I don’t think any fly fisherman could do better regarding descriptions and the basic history of some of the finest flies used on the American Continent. To wit:  Thank You Mr. Ernie Schwiebert. Mr. G.

Response:

I was told by an entomologist/flyfisherman that there were twenty different species called BWO that he was aware of. He felt that there probably was really close to a hundred. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … From what I understand, BWO is a fisherman’s term that describes a number of different species of mayflies. … Bluewinged Olive is the fishermen’s name for the subimago of several Baetis spp. and Pseudocloeon spp. and the subimago Ephemerella flavilinea. What I call "the little grey ones". — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BWO’s do vary in the color of the body as well as the shade of gray of the wing. They also vary in size. On a given river, these differences are usually seasonal. As a whole they tend to get smaller as the season goes on. In the Spring, they will be of a size 16 or 18. By late Fall and Winter they will be down to a 20 or 22. Different watersheds also have different BWO’s. From what I understand, BWO is a fisherman’s term that describes a number of different species of mayflies. The commonality is a gray wing and a body with some olive tones in it. The body often has other colors in it including: gray, yellow, rust, brown. cream etc. When tying them I generally blend an olive with several other colors. Most of the time, I prefer a parachute or paradun style. BWO’s are a "bad weather" fly.  They hatch heaviest on overcast days. In the Rockies, the BWO’s are the most consistent Mayfly.  They will hatch every month, even in mid Winter during a warm spell. Just before runoff, there are some very strong hatches on cloudy days that provide some excellent surface fishing. The hatches also seem to get stronger again in the Fall. Most of the time, I prefer a parachute or paradun style.

Aside from the "bad weather fly" part (must be a western thing – we get ‘em all the way up through Maine even on really nice days) you provided some solid information on this pattern, William. I don’t have enough fingers and toes to count all the body color variations I’ve seen used on BWOs – though the wings, hackles, and tails are nearly always a medium blue dun (and I wouldn’t tie ‘em with anything else). Anyone making the Y2K Maine Conclave should have a bunch of these at the ready, size 16-20 (particularly 18-20)… /daytripper

Response:

… From what I understand, BWO is a fisherman’s term that describes a number of different species of mayflies. …

Bluewinged Olive is the fishermen’s name for the subimago of several Baetis spp. and Pseudocloeon spp. and the subimago Ephemerella flavilinea. What I call "the little grey ones". — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s something to think about.  I saw this message on a sailing newsgroup: A guy went into the water in Elliott Bay as part of a [simulated rescue situation]. He was wearing a survival suit (the water *is* cold up here), and made the mistake of diving in head-first.  All the trapped air in the suit collected at the highest point once he was in the water, which was the feet.  He was not able to get himself rightside-up, and drowned before the boat could get back to him. I’ve never seen a survival suit except in pictures, but I understand it to be something like a dry suit with insulation and flotation built-in. I guess there *IS* a reason why I ritualisticly squeeze all the air out of my suit before each time I get into my boat.

Doesn’t sound like much of a problem for paddlers’ dry suits to me.  At least decked boaters are wearing a spray skirt which ought to be tight enough to keep air passing that quickly between upper body and legs. And everyone I’ve seen putting on dry suits burps as much air out as possible simply for the reason of making them more flexible.

Response:

: Here’s something to think about.  I saw this message on a sailing : newsgroup: I should have mentioned:  these survival suits (when I owned one) did not have neck gaskets; the only way I remember that air/water could get in our out was from around the neck.

Response:

(KCKaddis) writes: sounds like an urban legend to me … you’d think that a suit designed to save

your life would have floatation in the right spot to float you head up if unconciuos Actually, this is a common problem with dry suits. SCUBA divers often wear additional weight on their ankles to prevent a feet up uncontrolled ascent. … by the by , while fly fishing , I learned of the same prob with waders…

the solution , if you find yerself in this fix , is to pull your knees to your chest & burp the air out… or stay dry  ; ) More likely, it is a case of pulling your chest up toward your feet. Still, a dry suit has air stored up to the neck with a gasket that is intended to be leakproof. This is a whole lot different than a pair of waders which allow air to freely flow in/out. SCUBA suits have valves to allow air to escape at roughly chest level, but survival suits or the dry suits used when paddling do not. This should not be a life threatening situation with proper training, but few know of this risk and even fewer practice how to escape from this situation (the logical escape procedure would involve raising the body toward the surface in as flat a plane as possible, thus allowing the  the air to redistribute evenly in the suit – not having the opportunity to practice this, I’d imagine strong swimming/sculling skills and good breath control would come in handy). Whether or not this particular even is an urban legend is moot. There is a potential when wearing a dry suit for the air to redistribute in this fashion as the suit does nothing to prohibit the motion of air. Thus, bleeding the things before entering the water is important. Rick

Response:

Actually, [air trapped in legs, floating you head down] is a common problem with dry suits. SCUBA divers often wear additional weight on their ankles to prevent a feet up uncontrolled ascent. This should not be a life threatening situation with proper training, but few know of this risk and even fewer practice how to escape from this situation (the logical escape procedure would involve raising the body toward the surface in as flat a plane as possible, thus allowing the  the air to redistribute evenly in the suit – not having the opportunity to practice this, I’d imagine strong swimming/sculling skills and good breath control would come in handy).

I’ll be helping to run a pool session this winter, and I plan to try it.  My dry suit has ankle gaskets, so the easiest escape for me probably will be to reach for my ankles and burp them.  Who knows, maybe the pressure inside the suit will be enough for it to happen without my help.  If that’s the case, then I’ll try to borrow a suit that has booties built in, or I’ll try taping my ankle seals to make them tighter.

Response:

KCKaddis writes :: << sounds like an urban legend to me I remember when dry suits first appeared in the UK (early 70’s) – they were made out of latex rubber and actually worked pretty well while they lasted (which wasn’t long). They had a roll waist attachment and glued on booties. I would wear mine snorkeling and if I didn’t burp the suit my flippers would pop off my feet whenever I dove (my feet would turn into balloons). I don’t remember any problems getting stuck upside down though. The clear latex suits (mine was pink) were the worst looking things in the world – looked like they should have come out of a giant dispensing machine in the public toilets<g Mick Evans

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        I did run across one survival rescue suit in a catalog a coupla years ago that had rings embedded in the legs so that they wouldn’t expand if air rushed there in an upside down position.  Blurb suggested that indeed it had been a problem.   KCKaddis wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … you’d think that a suit designed to save your life would have floatation in the right spot to float you head up if unconciuos… by the by , while fly fishing , I learned of the same prob with waders… the solution , if you find yerself in this fix , is to pull your knees to your chest & burp the air out… or stay dry  ; )

Response:

: Here’s something to think about.  I saw this message on a sailing : newsgroup: … I owned one of these, though never tried it out in the water, when I fished in Bristol Bay.  I no longer remember the details about them except that the suits are like toddler’s pajamas, and are bulky and awkward to get in and out of.   I find the story to be quite credible.

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Sportsmansguide actually has some surplus survival suits   for $200. They have huge airbladder on the back, apparently to prevent this sort of mishap. I once read of a similar fatal accident involving a fat woman with an inner tube around her waist.

Response:

sounds like an urban legend to me … you’d think that a suit designed to save your life would have floatation in the right spot to float you head up if unconciuos… by the by , while fly fishing , I learned of the same prob with waders… the solution , if you find yerself in this fix , is to pull your knees to your chest & burp the air out… or stay dry  ; )

Response:

Here’s something to think about.  I saw this message on a sailing newsgroup: A guy went into the water in Elliott Bay as part of a [simulated rescue situation]. He was wearing a survival suit (the water *is* cold up here), and made the mistake of diving in head-first.  All the trapped air in the suit collected at the highest point once he was in the water, which was the feet.  He was not able to get himself rightside-up, and drowned before the boat could get back to him.

I’ve never seen a survival suit except in pictures, but I understand it to be something like a dry suit with insulation and flotation built-in. I guess there *IS* a reason why I ritualisticly squeeze all the air out of my suit before each time I get into my boat.

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Question:

Marcus writes: I have no idea how you reel in.  I fish mostly for bass and that’s probably what I’ll fish for with this rig, but I don’t know what I’d do if a bass took the popper.  How do you set the hook?  I assume you don’t snap the rod up the way you do with a spinning rod, so what do you do?  And reeling, do you reel the bass in by stripping line, or by using the reel?  What do you do if you’ve got a ton of line at your feet and a bass takes it?  Do you let him run while you reel it in or do you strip it in? No bait.  Just flies. Marcus

Bass have a fairly tough mouth.  Generally, move the rod through an arc parallel to the water surface while simultaneously giving a hard strip with your line hand.  Once, you feel the bass fighting and you’ve got all the slack out of the line between the rod tip and the fish. Give another firm pull and try to rip his lips off, this’ll set the hook.  The hardest part about fishing with a popper is pausing the 1/2 sec between when the bass smashes your popper and setting the hook.  If you jerk too soon you’ll pull the fly out of his mouth.  For me 99.5% of the time my reel is only used to store line.  I’ve been at this a few years and have caught a few fish, but I can count on one hand the # of times I’ve had the fight a LMB from the reel.  The Hawgs, 5 lbs and above, will sometimes pull enough line to get onto the reel but its rare.  I’ve tried to reel all the slack in just to fight fish from the reel and they throw the hook while I’m putzing around.  Poppers are usually only good early in the morning and right before sun down.  Most of my LMB are caught subsurface on Clousers, Wooly Buggers, or Dell’s Merkins (yeah, the saltwater permit fly). Good Luck. Patrick

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Dangit, forgot my real important question. HOW do you get the nail into the fly line?  I’ll be damned if I can get it to go in more than 3 mm. Marcus

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just anwser these questens. how do you cast? how do you tell what line to use? how do you real in? how do you cast back out? what bate should i use? hi from payday8887

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how do you cast? how do you tell what line to use? how do you real in? how do you cast back out? what bate should i use?

I’d like to echo these questions with some of my own.  I’m just getting into fly fishing.  I am figuring out casting.  It’s hard, but not impossible. Books are okay for this, videos better.  Ha! I know the answer to #2, use the line that matches your rod.  If you have a 7 rod, use a 7 line.  As for weight forward, double taper, etc, I dunno.  I’m using weight forward since I hear it’s easier for beginners. I have no idea how you reel in.  I fish mostly for bass and that’s probably what I’ll fish for with this rig, but I don’t know what I’d do if a bass took the popper.  How do you set the hook?  I assume you don’t snap the rod up the way you do with a spinning rod, so what do you do?  And reeling, do you reel the bass in by stripping line, or by using the reel?  What do you do if you’ve got a ton of line at your feet and a bass takes it?  Do you let him run while you reel it in or do you strip it in? No bait.  Just flies. Marcus

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Question:

I live in Lake Tahoe, Ca., and everyday on my way to and from work I drive by miles of the Carson River.  I have only just started flyfishing this season and have not had much chance "yet" to stop and try some of the still water.  My question is this; will the road noise impact fishing on rivers such as this?  If so, what is a comfortable distance from the road to the river for the fish?  At places, the road is approx 40 feet horizontal and about 35-40 feet vertical distance from the river and is fairly busy w/ cars and large trucks. Rich

      My favorite fishen hole is in a little canal off the St.John’s river. right under the I-4 bridge as it rises to cross the river and people are always pulling off 17/92 where it goes along side Lake Monrow. They get used to it. If you got room to cast, the water looks right go fishen.                                                          John Popp                                                      in Sanford Fl.

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That’s the key… it’s right on the way home from work!    I used to have that situation with a beautiful little mountain lake.  It was a mile down a dirt road, right on the way home from work.  I brought my float tube to work every day.  If the weather got shitty and I didn’t get to fish for a day or two on the way home, I started getting very irritable — withdrawl symptoms! You’re lucky to have a place like that, I think.

Yea, it is nice this time of the year, it’s the other six months I get tired of. I commute over a 7800′ mountain in some of the most incredible snow storms you can imagine! I guess the hard Winters are what makes this time of year especially enjoyable.  I can’t believe I have waited so long  (14 years) to take up fly fishing, late bloomer I suppose!  So much time to make up for, but I am up to the job!!! Rich

Response:

Rich, The water in the Carson is too rough for a little vibration from a truck or car to bother the trout.  Both forks of the Carson are good fly fishing streams. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live in Lake Tahoe, Ca., and everyday on my way to and from work I drive by miles of the Carson River.  I have only just started flyfishing this season and have not had much chance "yet" to stop and try some of the still water.  My question is this; will the road noise impact fishing on rivers such as this?  If so, what is a comfortable distance from the road to the river for the fish?  At places, the road is approx 40 feet horizontal and about 35-40 feet vertical distance from the river and is fairly busy w/ cars and large trucks. Rich

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Set up hard on a 3 inch brook trout sending it into the windshield of a passing car…. "Jeeeeeezus Martha….Didja see THAT bug…criminy  !" — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Set up hard on a 3 inch brook trout sending it into the windshield of a passing car…. "Jeeeeeezus Martha….Didja see THAT bug…criminy  !"

    For a moment I thought this was a response to the "Frying Pan, Roaring Fork" thread. Reminds me of some of the lower water on the Pan. Tom Christian External Technology Program Hewlett-Packard Laboratories 3404 East Harmony Road Fort Collins, CO 80528-9599 Phone: (970) 898-3531 FAX: (970) 898-6198

Response:

My question is this; will the road noise impact fishing on rivers such as this?  If so, what is a comfortable distance from the road to the river for the fish?  At places, the road is approx 40 feet horizontal and about 35-40 feet vertical distance from the river and is fairly busy w/ cars and large trucks.

I don’t think fish can hear the noises that we on the bank can hear but they can feel vibrations and river bed disturbance. Some of my best fish have been caught immediately under a UK motorway bridge (a very busy dual carriage way road).  The noise drives me up the wall but the fish don’t seem to notice it – at least, they favour the deep pool below / under / above the bridge.  But they know all about it if I stumble through the pool in the dark in my studded waders… Street lights are also a problem for those of us who fish for sea trout by night. I’ve heard that migratory fish are intimidated by bridges and other over-water structures.  Anyone have any knowledge / theories on this? — Phil Jones

Response:

The water in the Carson is too rough for a little vibration from a truck or car to bother the trout.  Both forks of the Carson are good fly fishing streams.

Almost too rough for a newbie! Tried it with a weighted wooly bugger and single split shot. Never even felt the bottom!

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Last August I was on highway 50 heading back to SF from Tahoe.  This road runs along the (North Branch?) American River which looked fishable along certain spots.  It’s a two lane highway with loads of traffic and about 40′ above water level.  Parked alongside the road I could spot several trout beside a large boulder less than 5 feet from shore.  Traffic didn’t seem to be bothering them.  Mu Young Lee         Ann Arbor, MI  o             oooo                          o   o   o o   o o o  o – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live in Lake Tahoe, Ca., and everyday on my way to and from work I drive by miles of the Carson River.  I have only just started flyfishing this season and have not had much chance "yet" to stop and try some of the still water.  My question is this; will the road noise impact fishing on rivers such as this?  If so, what is a comfortable distance from the road to the river for the fish?  At places, the road is approx 40 feet horizontal and about 35-40 feet vertical distance from the river and is fairly busy w/ cars and large trucks. Rich

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This is a tough time of year to fly fish any of the Sierra streams.  It will get better around the end of June.   — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The water in the Carson is too rough for a little vibration from a truck or car to bother the trout.  Both forks of the Carson are good fly fishing streams. Almost too rough for a newbie! Tried it with a weighted wooly bugger and single split shot. Never even felt the bottom!

Response:

I live in Lake Tahoe, Ca., and everyday on my way to and from work I drive by miles of the Carson River.  I have only just started flyfishing this season and have not had much chance "yet" to stop and try some of the still water.  My question is this; will the road noise impact fishing on rivers such as this?  If so, what is a comfortable distance from the road to the river for the fish?  At places, the road is approx 40 feet horizontal and about 35-40 feet vertical distance from the river and is fairly busy w/ cars and large trucks. Rich

Response:

I live in Lake Tahoe, Ca., and everyday on my way to and from work I drive by miles of the Carson River.  I have only just started flyfishing this season and have not had much chance "yet" to stop and try some of the still water.  My question is this; will the road noise impact fishing on rivers such as this?  If so, what is a comfortable distance from the road to the river for the fish?  At places, the road is approx 40 feet horizontal and about 35-40 feet vertical distance from the river and is fairly busy w/ cars and large trucks. Rich

What’s the water like?  Whitewater drowns out other noise VERY well.  I’ve fished on the Wilson in Oregon, highway 6 runs right along the river.  Standing near the whitewater with a tree or two to hide the cars and you’d think you were in the middle of nowhere.  On the other hand, the sound of the water can get "deafening" after a while.  I’m used to it, but my brother was visiting and had to leave for a bit to let his ears stop ringing. Why don’t you go try it and see?  If you like it, stay, if not try to find somewhere else. Later,      - Ken

Response:

What’s the water like?

Right now it’s it’s fairly fast due to snow melt off, in fact I think it’s too deep for good fishing although I have tried it up river a bit.  I will definately try it as a bit at a time.  I figure it will be  great way to unwind on the way home from work this summer!  

Response:

What’s the water like? Right now it’s it’s fairly fast due to snow melt off, in fact I think it’s too deep for good fishing although I have tried it up river a bit.  I will definately try it as a bit at a time.  I figure it will be  great way to unwind on the way home from work this summer!

That’s the key… it’s right on the way home from work!    I used to have that situation with a beautiful little mountain lake.  It was a mile down a dirt road, right on the way home from work.  I brought my float tube to work every day.  If the weather got shitty and I didn’t get to fish for a day or two on the way home, I started getting very irritable — withdrawl symptoms! You’re lucky to have a place like that, I think. Bob Scott

Response:

Rich,     The fish are probably acclimated to the road noise and not bothered by it at all. I’ve fished spots much closer to the road and I’m sure I’m not the only one in the group to get spooled on the back cast (a Ford in my case).             Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I live in Lake Tahoe, Ca., and everyday on my way to and from work I drive by miles of the Carson River.  I have only just started flyfishing this season and have not had much chance "yet" to stop and try some of the still water. My question is this; will the road noise impact fishing on rivers such as this?  If so, what is a comfortable distance from the road to the river for the fish?  At places, the road is approx 40 feet horizontal and about 35-40 feet vertical distance from the river and is fairly busy w/ cars and large trucks. Rich

Response:

Question:

We’re looking to go fishing in Spain next spring. Having given up on the guide books I am keen to find out if anyone has been or knows of  any places to go to etc. Thanks James

Response:

We’re looking to go fishing in Spain next spring. Having given up on the guide books I am keen to find out if anyone has been or knows of  any places to go to etc. Thanks James

James… I met a Spanish trout fishermen on the internet who may be able to give you some leads. His name is Paco…and he can be reached at If you go, let me know. Bob

Response:

Question:

Grow up and get a life!  If you have a "head in the sand" approach to flyfishing that’s fine, but don’t try to foist it on the rest of us.  Most fly fishers enjoy a variety of approaches to catch, and often release, a variety of fish species.   To each his or her own.

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A nicely weighted nymph, quietly cast upstream, on a dead drift, is truly the only sporting way to pursue the honorable Mr. Trout.                                                        __ john quill taylor                                     / / writer at large                                      / /   Hewlett-Packard, Storage Systems Division    __     /_/ / Boise, Idaho U.S.A.                         /_/  __ _ Telephone: (208) 396-2328 (MST = GMT – 7)     /  \  / Snail Mail: Hewlett-Packard                    / \             11413 Chinden Blvd                 \             Boise, Idaho 83714                   _/             Mailstop 852                            _/                                                   _/       "When in doubt, do as doubters do." – jqt –                   haiti, rwanda, cuba, bosnia, … we have a list,              where is our schindler?

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Question:

I’ve heard that someone makes a CD-ROM on fly tying.  If you have info on who make this, please respond ASAP.  Need as going away gift. — Kelly Mills http://www.vni.net/~hitech/kmills.htm

Response:

I’ve heard that someone makes a CD-ROM on fly tying.  If you have info
on who make this, please respond ASAP.  Need as going away gift.
–
Kelly Mills

http://www.vni.net/~hitech/kmills.htm

The current Fly Fisherman has an ad for the CD you want, with the phone number to order it. I also saw this CD at a fly shop in Indianapolis so it is probably being stocked in many flyshops now. The Virtual Flyfisher web site has a review of it in this month’s online magazine.

Response:

Kelly,    I have just received a copy of ”Tying Flies for Trout” by Elkwing Productions, P.O. Box 789, Waitsfield, VT 05673.    In my first look through it, I was somewhat impressed. It offers quite a variety of fly recipes, and includes six videos that take the tyer through the entire process for tying a particular fly.    It works on Macs and PCs and the production values are pretty good, although there are a problem or two (it was hard to hear the commentator during the tying videos). But the photos are good and you can blow them up quite large to get a good look at them.    Sorry I don’t have a phone number, but the above info might help you get started. All the rest of the info is at the office.    By the way, I am the outdoor editor for the Great Falls Tribune, in Great Falls, MT. just to let you know this was an objective opinion and not an employee shilling their product.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kelly,   I have just received a copy of ”Tying Flies for Trout” by Elkwing Productions, P.O. Box 789, Waitsfield, VT 05673.   In my first look through it, I was somewhat impressed. It offers quite a variety of fly recipes, and includes six videos that take the tyer through the entire process for tying a particular fly.   It works on Macs and PCs and the production values are pretty good, although there are a problem or two (it was hard to hear the commentator during the tying videos). But the photos are good and you can blow them up quite large to get a good look at them.   Sorry I don’t have a phone number, but the above info might help you get started. All the rest of the info is at the office.   By the way, I am the outdoor editor for the Great Falls Tribune, in Great Falls, MT. just to let you know this was an objective opinion and not an employee shilling their product.

I’ve been looking for the same thing.  The phone number to Waitsfield "Learn to Tie Flies on CD"  is 800 411-3984.  There is a small add on page 76 in January/February issue of FlyRod&Reel. Dennis DiAugustine

Response:

Hi Kelly, A good fly tying CD Rom is Tying Flies for TROUT by Dick Stewart & Farrow Allen.  It uses video as well as still photography to bring a wide array of flies to you. It my very well be the same CD as talked about by others on this thread. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (catalog avail)

Response:

I’ve heard that someone makes a CD-ROM on fly tying.  If you have info
on who make this, please respond ASAP.  Need as going away gift.
–
Kelly Mills

        We carry the Dick Stewart & Farrow Allen CD "Tying Flies for Trout" which has fly tying video clips, patterns, instruction for tying the patterns, reference materials concerning fly tying and the like. The price is $49.95 + shipping.         To order call us (HunterBanks Co., the southeast’s premier fly shop) at 800-227-6732.

Response:

Hello! Yes, CD ROM with databse of flies is manufactured by: Fine Line Classic Collection address: Langoddveien 49 N-1335 Snaroya Norway Phone: 47 66849622 Fax: 47 67532840 They have no mail address. Product name: FlyLab for Windows The software is in two versions. FlyLab ver. 1.2 Light on discettes contains 300 patters. Price NOK 495,- FlyLab ver. 1.2 Full on discettes or CD Rom contains 900 patterns. Pris NOK 995,- Prices ex. mailing costs. Hardware spec: Minimum 386 /4mb RAM 256 color 36 Mb HD Windows 3.1 Rec. Hw. 486 /8 Mb RAM 32/64 color 48 Mb Hd Windows 3.11 The databse gives possibilities to add privat patterns as well as making notes on the original. If you have any questions, do not hesitate to mail me. Best Regards Erik R=F8hne

Response:

I’ve heard that someone makes a CD-ROM on fly tying.  If you have info on who make this, please respond ASAP.  Need as going away gift. The current Fly Fisherman has an ad for the CD you want, with the phone number to order it. I also saw this CD at a fly shop in Indianapolis so it is probably being stocked in many flyshops now. The Virtual Flyshop web site has a review of it in this month’s online magazine.

Try http://www.flyshop.com/Mall/Elkwing "Tying Flies for Trout" by Farrow and Allen. — Mike Tucker-  The Virtual Flyshop Web: http://www.flyshop.com Phone: 970/225-6445

Response:

Question:

The Santa Cruz Fly Fishermen are often found on the Monterey Bay in CA. Most of them do quite well , usually  much  better than the bait fishermen. We enjoy many species of rockfish  as well as shark on a fly, also stripped bass.

Response:

The Santa Cruz Fly Fishermen are often found on the Monterey Bay in CA. Most of them do quite well , usually  much  better than the bait fishermen. We enjoy many species of rockfish  as well as shark on a fly, also stripped bass.

I have fished the Santa Cruz marine area for many years using fly. I find that the rockcod fishing is very productive at this time of year. I use a 7-8 wt. rod with 18 feet of lead core. I use 15 lb. leader with a two fly setup. For shark (mostly Blue shark) I use a cheap 10-11 wt. rod with a very good reel and lots of backing. I use a floating line with 20 lb. tipit with a foot long piece of single strand wire (58 lb. strength) as a shock leader. Also, for both rockcod and shark I make sure that the barb is flattened on my flies. This is for everyone’s good (including the fish). Last year was a very successful year for rockcod and shark. This year, it has been only fair, but some outstanding fish days did occur. John

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