Question:

My new next door neighbor has been talking about the Magalloway river since he moved in. He grew up in Bethel and also lived in Errol, NH for a couple of years and knows the area well so we headed up this afternoon. Seems to me that the tripper had tried to get me up there 10-12 years ago but I never made the trip. It’s about 100 mile trip from my house, we did it in about 1.5 hours, a nice scenic drive up through Grafton Notch. The Magalloway is a short river, running betweem Aziscohos Lake and Umbagog Lake. Umbagog is the same lake that the Rapid runs into. The Magalloway is a bit north of the Rapid. First we fished one of his favorite spots, right off Rt16 out of Errol (but back in Maine) a bend pool near a large field. Mitch didn’t get anything there but I unfortunately caught a smallie, about 12" and it had to be the healthiest smallie I’ve caught this year. So sadly, the smallies are running up the Magalloway as well as the Rapid. We moved to a pool upstream he called trout pool, where he guaranteed there were some good fish. On the short walk in we ran into a woman who was down with her dog to watch the kayakers. We got to the pool and Mitch told me to fish the head of the pool and he moved down the bank to the middle. After 10-15 mins 3 kayaks came down the river and immediately cut accross the pool in front of us. Then they started to play in the sluce where it dumped into the pool. They would go accross the main pool, sit on the other side, giggle, then one of them would come out and shoot through the pool again. It was deliberate and quite annoying. Things had gotten to where I was beginning to consider throwing rocks or whacking them on the helmut with my rod when they finally drifted downstream. I realize that rafters and kayakers are our allies in keeping the rivers clean and wild but these people needed to learn to give some consideration. After the twits left I decided to try a dry fly as I’d seen a couple fish hitting the top, so I tied on one of Vern’s reddish brown things and after a few casts decided to move to the tail of the pool so I could get a decent drift. About 3 casts later I saw a very subtle hit, setup and got the surprise of the day when the biggest salmon I’ve seen on the end of my line in about 3 or 4 years launched itself into the air and came off. I thought I’d broken him off, but I still had the fly. The fish was an easy 19-20" and very very fat. It also had the "river" salmon yellow belly. Mitch told me he’d had several hits before the kayaks came through on a streamer but that he hadn’t had any since. I gave Mitch one of Vern’s flies and he immediately caught a nice salmon, and several brook trout. In the meantime I lost another nice salmon, smaller than the first but still a nice fish. There were some little tiny green bodied bugs starting to swarm, they had little white wings and were small, if I had to tie one up I’d look for a #30 hook. They were flying up my nose, into my ears and were all over my arms when I realized that they were also biting. I rolled down my sleeves and went back to work as dark was coming on. I managed to miss a few and then a very fat 15-16" brookie as it got almost completly dark. The fish gave me a very strong run into the pool before coming to hand. Mitch and I decided that neither one of us could see good enough to fish so we headed back to the car. Not a bad afternoon’s trip. Flyfish

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My new next door neighbor has been talking about the Magalloway river since he moved in. He grew up in Bethel and also lived in Errol, NH for a couple of years and knows the area well so we headed up this afternoon. Seems to me that the tripper had tried to get me up there 10-12 years ago but I never made the trip. It’s about 100 mile trip from my house, we did it in about 1.5 hours, a nice scenic drive up through Grafton Notch. The Magalloway is a short river, running betweem Aziscohos Lake and Umbagog Lake. Umbagog is the same lake that the Rapid runs into. The Magalloway is a bit north of the Rapid. First we fished one of his favorite spots, right off Rt16 out of Errol (but back in Maine) a bend pool near a large field. Mitch didn’t get anything there but I unfortunately caught a smallie, about 12" and it had to be the healthiest smallie I’ve caught this year. So sadly, the smallies are running up the Magalloway as well as the Rapid. We moved to a pool upstream he called trout pool, where he guaranteed there were some good fish. On the short walk in we ran into a woman who was down with her dog to watch the kayakers. We got to the pool and Mitch told me to fish the head of the pool and he moved down the bank to the middle. After 10-15 mins 3 kayaks came down the river and immediately cut accross the pool in front of us. Then they started to play in the sluce where it dumped into the pool. They would go accross the main pool, sit on the other side, giggle, then one of them would come out and shoot through the pool again. It was deliberate and quite annoying. Things had gotten to where I was beginning to consider throwing rocks or whacking them on the helmut with my rod when they finally drifted downstream. I realize that rafters and kayakers are our allies in keeping the rivers clean and wild but these people needed to learn to give some consideration. After the twits left I decided to try a dry fly as I’d seen a couple fish hitting the top, so I tied on one of Vern’s reddish brown things and after a few casts decided to move to the tail of the pool so I could get a decent drift. About 3 casts later I saw a very subtle hit, setup and got the surprise of the day when the biggest salmon I’ve seen on the end of my line in about 3 or 4 years launched itself into the air and came off. I thought I’d broken him off, but I still had the fly. The fish was an easy 19-20" and very very fat. It also had the "river" salmon yellow belly. Mitch told me he’d had several hits before the kayaks came through on a streamer but that he hadn’t had any since. I gave Mitch one of Vern’s flies and he immediately caught a nice salmon, and several brook trout. In the meantime I lost another nice salmon, smaller than the first but still a nice fish. There were some little tiny green bodied bugs starting to swarm, they had little white wings and were small, if I had to tie one up I’d look for a #30 hook. They were flying up my nose, into my ears and were all over my arms when I realized that they were also biting. I rolled down my sleeves and went back to work as dark was coming on. I managed to miss a few and then a very fat 15-16" brookie as it got almost completly dark. The fish gave me a very strong run into the pool before coming to hand. Mitch and I decided that neither one of us could see good enough to fish so we headed back to the car. Not a bad afternoon’s trip. Flyfish

Good for you, Dave. Glad you got out and finally hit one of my favorite small streams up there, even if I couldn’t be there to enjoy it with you. Rapid next weekend! /daytripper (having another working weekend 8-(

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We moved to a pool upstream he called trout pool, where he guaranteed there were some good fish. On the short walk in we ran into a woman who was down with her dog to watch the kayakers. We got to the pool and Mitch told me to fish the head of the pool and he moved down the bank to the middle. After 10-15 mins 3 kayaks came down the river and immediately cut accross the pool in front of us. Then they started to play in the sluce where it dumped into the pool. They would go accross the main pool, sit on the other side, giggle, then one of them would come out and shoot through the pool again. It was deliberate and quite annoying. Things had gotten to where I was beginning to consider throwing rocks or whacking them on the helmut with my rod when they finally drifted downstream. I realize that rafters and kayakers are our allies in keeping the rivers clean and wild but these people needed to learn to give some consideration.

Dontcha just love ‘em.  My favourite is the asshole with a 100′ or more of river to work with, goes right through the run your fishing, then his 15 or so asshole friends follow him.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -After the twits left I decided to try a dry fly as I’d seen a couple fish hitting the top, so I tied on one of Vern’s reddish brown things and after a few casts decided to move to the tail of the pool so I could get a decent drift. About 3 casts later I saw a very subtle hit, setup and got the surprise of the day when the biggest salmon I’ve seen on the end of my line in about 3 or 4 years launched itself into the air and came off. I thought I’d broken him off, but I still had the fly. The fish was an easy 19-20" and very very fat. It also had the "river" salmon yellow belly. Mitch told me he’d had several hits before the kayaks came through on a streamer but that he hadn’t had any since. I gave Mitch one of Vern’s flies and he immediately caught a nice salmon, and several brook trout. In the meantime I lost another nice salmon, smaller than the first but still a nice fish. There were some little tiny green bodied bugs starting to swarm, they had little white wings and were small, if I had to tie one up I’d look for a #30 hook. They were flying up my nose, into my ears and were all over my arms when I realized that they were also biting. I rolled down my sleeves and went back to work as dark was coming on. I managed to miss a few and then a very fat 15-16" brookie as it got almost completly dark. The fish gave me a very strong run into the pool before coming to hand. Mitch and I decided that neither one of us could see good enough to fish so we headed back to the car. Not a bad afternoon’s trip. Flyfish

Sounds like a fun day despite the fiberglass hatch and the bitty bugs – that’s a nice brookie, btw. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

sniped, because of length… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We moved to a pool upstream he called trout pool, where he guaranteed there were some good fish. On the short walk in we ran into a woman who was down with her dog to watch the kayakers. We got to the pool and Mitch told me to fish the head of the pool and he moved down the bank to the middle. After 10-15 mins 3 kayaks came down the river and immediately cut accross the pool in front of us. Then they started to play in the sluce where it dumped into the pool. They would go accross the main pool, sit on the other side, giggle, then one of them would come out and shoot through the pool again. It was deliberate and quite annoying. Things had gotten to where I was beginning to consider throwing rocks or whacking them on the helmut with my rod when they finally drifted downstream. I realize that rafters and kayakers are our allies in keeping the rivers clean and wild but these people needed to learn to give some consideration.

Oh my God, I know that problem, on my club waters, there are days you can

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now I know that graphite blanks have a *backbone* or *spine* and the line guides are suppose to be lined up in some relative position to that spine, I have long forgotten the details. My first question: Is it possible that the second time around I did not get the guides correctly on the blank? Yes, if you never splined the original or the new tip. How can I check? I’m sure it should match the way it was done on the butt section. Hold the rod out straight (parallel to the ground) and flex it up and down.  When it moves straight up and down, the spline is either on the top or the bottom.  If you notice that the tip and rest of the rod seem to be "out of sync," rotate the tip and see if you can get an obvious straight up and down.

Just to clarify, when you _attempt_ to flex the rod in a vertical plane, if it actually moves slightly off from straight up and down, the spline is not in the vertical plane.  When the spline is in the vertical plane, the rod will move straight up and down, and you then know that the spline is either on the top or bottom. TC, R

Response:

It’s SPINE, not SPLINE, dammit! /daytripper (!)

Response:

It’s SPINE, not SPLINE, dammit!

Er, actually, it’s a poTAto POtato thing…both are widely used, and really, both make about as much sense as the other.  Remember that although there is only one "high point" on the rod, it affects it in a plane. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -/daytripper (!)

Response:

It’s SPINE, not SPLINE, dammit!

How do you know that? I’ve seen the both words used depending on who’s doing the writing. Clemens uses spline in all three of his books on rod building, for example. Willi

Response:

It’s SPINE, not SPLINE, dammit! How do you know that? I’ve seen the both words used depending on who’s doing the writing. Clemens uses spline in all three of his books on rod building, for example.

I’m pretty sure that’s where I picked it up, because IIRC the older guys I originally learned rod "making" from used older bamboo terms like "strong"/"weak flat," "crown(ed)," etc.  I can’t remember if they used "spline," "spine," or either. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Willi

Response:

Now I know that graphite blanks have a *backbone* or *spine* and the line guides are suppose to be lined up in some relative position to that spine, I have long forgotten the details.

Have a look here; http://www.flyanglersonline.com/begin/graphite/part7.html My first question: Is it possible that the second time around I did not get the guides correctly on the blank? How can I check? I’m sure it should match the way it was done on the butt section. If I find that I did do it incorrectly, can I fix the rod? How would I remove the old guides without damaging the blank?

Usually yes. It depends how you put the guides on. How do I find the correct place to put new ones on the blank?

See the URL above. TL MC

Response:

Just to clarify, when you _attempt_ to flex the rod in a vertical plane, if it actually moves slightly off from straight up and down, the spline is not in the vertical plane.  When the spline is in the vertical plane, the rod will move straight up and down, and you then know that the spline is either on the top or bottom.

Please clarify, how do I flex the rod? Do I just wiggle it up an down or just press it up against something to bend it down? Hope that doesn’t seem like a silly question. Thanks, Russell

Response:

Now I know that graphite blanks have a *backbone* or *spine* and the line guides are suppose to be lined up in some relative position to that spine, I have long forgotten the details. Have a look here; http://www.flyanglersonline.com/begin/graphite/part7.html

Thanks for the link. Here are a couple of paragraphs from the link: How do you get it right? Simple, you locate the spine of the blank. To do this, place the tip of the rod blank on the floor, hold the butt end with one hand and apply some moderate pressure to the middle of the blank with the index finger of the other hand. With the tip of the blank bent, turn the rod with the hand that

Question:

Actually, flyrods are more since that was quoted correctly.  Secondary part costs have increased dramatically since the Clinton defascoes and Greenspan screw ups with the economy.

So until you give me a new figure let’s work with a  100% increase on costs over the past four years (although I can’t beleive it should be this high). That still implies a helathy profit of several 100%. You have not used the correct price at all.  Most of the fly rods are around $500 – $700.  

Check your own website. I clearly stated I was using the MSRP which is quoted at $1620 to $3000. This is the price you expect a retailer to charge for your rods. or did you post a hugely inflated MSRP in order to make your rods appear to be worth more tahn they really are. Surely that would be unethical… George Gehrke "bamboosan" http://www.gink.com George Gehrke "lowest priced bamboo fly rods regardless"

And this is wrong too. Your MSRPs for your product line rods are higher (and in some cases considerably higher) than the price of most handmade rods which, as you have admitted yourself in the past, have higher quality.

Response:

The Cortland "444 Clear Camo" is the most popular here in California, USA, planet earth.

For those in the know (such as my cat) the inter-galactic postal service now requires both "Galaxy" AND "ZIP + AZ + RA" for speedy delivery… K

Response:

  Where the fuck are those guys in white coats when you need them? Playing Poker over at Wayne Harrison’s house:  Joker’s Wild? Glad to see you’re not brain dead yet by responding to my troll of vulgarity. My apologies for the civilized language. Mr.G. "back to regular casting"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, flyrods are more since that was quoted correctly.  Secondary  part costs have increased dramatically since the Clinton defascoes and  Greenspan screw ups with the economy. So until you give me a new figure let’s work with a  100% increase on costs over the past four years (although I can’t beleive it should be this high). That still implies a helathy profit of several 100%. You have not used the correct price at all.  Most of the fly rods are  around $500 – $700. Check your own website. I clearly stated I was using the MSRP which is quoted at $1620 to $3000. This is the price you expect a retailer to charge for your rods. or did you post a hugely inflated MSRP in order to make your rods appear to be worth more tahn they really are. Surely that would be unethical… Whoa, right here ass hole.  You don’t know for jack shit the quality of our fly rods.  Admit it!  Where is your source of knowledge derived from?? Other assholes?

You should learn to read and comprehend and control your infamous short-temper. You are supposed to be a mature adult, so why not start acting like one. I did not say your rods are of bad quality. I asked if they were really worth $1600 to $3000, which are prices commanded by top quality, hand made rods, constructed by gentlemen with many years of craftmanship behind them. You have often commneted yourself that your rods are of porduction line quality, and, while they may or may not be the best production line rods in the world, I find it hard to believe they are of the same quality level as the handmade rods, and therefore worth an equivalent amount. So, I ask you, would you put your rod with a MSRP of $3000 (note, I said MSRP, not "special online price") up against a hand-made rod charged at $3000? Would you gurantee your rod to be of the same quality and standard as that handmade rod? I’ll tell you what.  I dare you, if you wish to see a beautiful bamboo to order one and in your case you will pay in advance for a Bastard for a bastard.  I will defy you to  be able to find fault with it compared to any other bamboo fly rod in the world. Okay, you chicken shit son of a bitch.  What say you? George Gehrke bamboosan

I have no wish whatsoever to do business with a man who uses such language and shows such obvious contempt for his "customers". I am very choosy about who I give my money to. Sorry.

Response:

Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here…

Is there money to be made smuggling Albolene to NZ? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Clark

You can always order factory direct as ours don’t sell for that there Clark. Even the cost of postage would be cheaper than what it takes you to drive to the store. Your Pal, George

Response:

Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Clark

Um, isn’t that about 8.00USD?  Granted, more expensive than in the US, but considering the costs involved versus the market, that doesn’t, on the face of it, sound so outrageous.  Of course, if it’s Ginkle’s Gunk, I can see the basis for your confusion… TC, R

Response:

Rusty?  I did an extensive article with drawings on how fly lines are made. The engineering has been paid for long ago and that deals with line tapers mainly.  What does change are coatings and finishes.  That is all. The process is so simple as to boggle the mind and the cost of making a fly line is indeed one of the lowest in American Manufacturing in the industry. This is why one can readily appreciate HOW a company like Cortland can afford full page ads in magazines.  The profit margin is so vast as to be literally obnoxious and unfair.  Just like Frog Butt, the fly fishermen of America are NOT getting a square or honest deal when it comes to fly lines. No joke.  Fly lines from all the manufacturers are over priced.  I mean, WAY over priced! Consider this.  A Cortland 333 or 444 could be bought in Wal-Mart here in Lewiston Idaho just a week ago and  for several years for the low, Low, LOW price of only $11.57.  Would you like to hear the rest of the story? The new (and I wonder about this term as a hype bite) 555 Cortland costs no more to make than any other Cortland Fly Line.  If they cost more, okay; I’ll let you increase that factor about what this article is worth.  How about .02 Cents? George Gehrke Each of these fly lines all cast the same, believe it or not.  It’s nothing to get excited about.  Fly lines are expendable and as far as I’m concerned, the 555 should sell for LESS THAN Twenty dollars per line. You know everyone?  I keep saying this time and time again.  The packaging costs more than what it takes to make a fly line and the labor required is not much at all, but for some odd reason this fact just doesn’t soak in. Fly line companies need to be boycotted if you want to get them back into the honesty game, like it or not.  Thing is, it’s all I mainly fish with is Cortland Fly Lines but I use only the fairly priced ones and always will. George Gehrke "Inside Trade Secrets"

Response:

Yep! Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Is there money to be made smuggling Albolene to NZ? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Yep basically but my point was, even at $8.00 US, for what it is some people just are not in a position to be bitching about how Cortland prices its lines, apart from the obvious factors already pointed out about the engineering and development and manufacture of new lines. Cortland didn’t just find a material used to keep ladies knickers up and repackage it as an expensive fly line. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Clark Um, isn’t that about 8.00USD?  Granted, more expensive than in the US, but considering the costs involved versus the market, that doesn’t, on the face of it, sound so outrageous.  Of course, if it’s Ginkle’s Gunk, I can see the basis for your confusion… TC, R

Response:

Yep basically but my point was, even at $8.00 US, for what it is some people just are not in a position to be bitching about how Cortland prices its lines, apart from the obvious factors already pointed out about the engineering and development and manufacture of new lines. Cortland didn’t just find a material used to keep ladies knickers up and repackage it as an expensive fly line.

My article on how easy it is to put some PVC plastic on a string apart from engineering which has been done years ago and paid for ten thousand times over, machinery that hasn’t changed in fifty years in making the web core and the automated ejection dies that cost a dime a dozen, is long ago paid for. It is just the change of plastic advances.  Cortland or S.Anglers all buy the plastics by the thousand pound box lots and it’s cheap.  The cost of the plastic coating the fly line you’re using today is about a 1/20th of a cent worth, if that. I know what a fair price for a fly line is and you don’t Clark.  I’m telling you that you can make it sound extravagant but it isn’t.  The art work on a fly line box is more extravagant than the line, believe that.  My point is simple.  Fly lines are over priced. George Gehrke The exchange rate where you are is indeed just numbers.  You have the same buying power and that is not America’s fault now, is it?  How much money is good wages per hour there?  A hundred dollars an hour or three dollars an hour?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rusty?  I did an extensive article with drawings on how fly lines are made. The engineering has been paid for long ago and that deals with line tapers mainly.  What does change are coatings and finishes.  That is all. The process is so simple as to boggle the mind and the cost of making a fly line is indeed one of the lowest in American Manufacturing in the industry. This is why one can readily appreciate HOW a company like Cortland can afford full page ads in magazines.  The profit margin is so vast as to be literally obnoxious and unfair.  Just like Frog Butt, the fly fishermen of America are NOT getting a square or honest deal when it comes to fly lines. No joke.  Fly lines from all the manufacturers are over priced.  I mean, WAY over priced! Consider this.  A Cortland 333 or 444 could be bought in Wal-Mart here in Lewiston Idaho just a week ago and  for several years for the low, Low, LOW price of only $11.57.  Would you like to hear the rest of the story? The new (and I wonder about this term as a hype bite) 555 Cortland costs no more to make than any other Cortland Fly Line.  If they cost more, okay; I’ll let you increase that factor about what this article is worth.  How about .02 Cents? George Gehrke Each of these fly lines all cast the same, believe it or not.  It’s nothing to get excited about.  Fly lines are expendable and as far as I’m concerned, the 555 should sell for LESS THAN Twenty dollars per line. You know everyone?  I keep saying this time and time again.  The packaging costs more than what it takes to make a fly line and the labor required is not much at all, but for some odd reason this fact just doesn’t soak in. Fly line companies need to be boycotted if you want to get them back into the honesty game, like it or not.  Thing is, it’s all I mainly fish with is Cortland Fly Lines but I use only the fairly priced ones and always will. George Gehrke "Inside Trade Secrets"

"I assure everyone here, you can build the finest bamboo fly rod in the world for less then $50 – $65 dollars. " George Gehrke, 31 December 1998 Quoted _retail price_ on www.gink.com  = $1620 Profit = 1620 – 80  = $1540  (allowing for some inflation!) % Profit = almost 2000 %.  That’s quite some markup! Note: This is not the "special offer if you buy via the internet price", but the manufacturer’s suggested retail price for a Blonde model. If you want a Black Raven at MDRP of $3000, the markup is closer to 3650 %. It is up to the reader to decide whether these are the "finest bamboo" in the world. What should we think about such high markups? "The more commercial you become the lower the manufacturing costs UP to a CERTAIN point. Then things average out to around $49.95 each. THAT rod is now being sold for $2500! Which is such a con job as to require all of us to march upon Orvis and other Overpricing Fly Rod Manufacturers who are "Over-Charging" and we should slap them silly. " George Gehrke,  31 December 1998 What can we do but agree with this sage advice. The line forms on my right…

Response:

"Rapscallion"   YOU!  You chickenshit sonofabitch, who doesn’t have the balls to present your own real name dares to challenge me, the God and Ruler of Roff?  I’m George Gehrke, the one and only.  Who are you.  Nothing? George Gehrke "a somebody" And proud of it.

Where the fuck are those guys in white coats when you need them?

Response:

"Rapscallion"   YOU!  You chickenshit sonofabitch, who doesn’t have the balls to present your own real name dares to challenge me, the God and Ruler of Roff?  I’m George Gehrke, the one and only.  Who are you.  Nothing? George Gehrke "a somebody" And proud of it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, flyrods are more since that was quoted correctly.  Secondary part costs have increased dramatically since the Clinton defascoes and Greenspan screw ups with the economy. So until you give me a new figure let’s work with a  100% increase on costs over the past four years (although I can’t beleive it should be this high). That still implies a helathy profit of several 100%. You have not used the correct price at all.  Most of the fly rods are around $500 – $700. Check your own website. I clearly stated I was using the MSRP which is quoted at $1620 to $3000. This is the price you expect a retailer to charge for your rods. or did you post a hugely inflated MSRP in order to make your rods appear to be worth more tahn they really are. Surely that would be unethical…

Whoa, right here ass hole.  You don’t know for jack shit the quality of our fly rods.  Admit it!  Where is your source of knowledge derived from?? Other assholes? I’ll tell you what.  I dare you, if you wish to see a beautiful bamboo to order one and in your case you will pay in advance for a Bastard for a bastard.  I will defy you to  be able to find fault with it compared to any other bamboo fly rod in the world. Okay, you chicken shit son of a bitch.  What say you? George Gehrke bamboosan

Response:

For just about any manufactured goods, the cost of raw materials is minor compared to the costs incurred in research and development, manufacture, distribution, and promotion. Basing the "fair price" of a flyline on the cost of bulk PVC is about the same as saying that split-cane flyrods shouldn’t cost any more than 20 or 30 dollars because they are made of little more than bamboo, cork, steel, and nickel. Besides that, there is currently enough competition in the fly line market that I seriously doubt that an artificially high price would last for very long.

This is very true, but misleading and not entirely correct.  The general rule of thumb that I have found is that wholesale is roughly half of retail and wholesale is over two times the cost of production.  You are basically paying for the manufacturer to make a profit and then the retailer to make a profit.  My friend was signed up with several business that had guide programs and I got to see some of the price sheets for Orvis and others.  What was costing me $5 (brass beads), he was getting for $1.50 or so.  If you knew the mark up on stuff like hackle, fly rods, etc you would shit your pants, which wouldn’t be a problem if you were paying wholesale because you could afford a pair just to crap in.  The glasses I wanted that were $150, he could get for $45.  Unlike other industries, the mark ups on fly fishing gear is huge.  Those that are able to afford it do so.  Those that can’t afford it but still want it sacrifice and buy it anyways.  Those that can’t afford it buy something that is a good substitute but within their price range.  I think the fly fishing industry has basically nickled and dimed us over the years to find the upper limits of what we are willing to pay as consumers and have been very effective at doing so.  The few manufacturers that start off at discounted prices eventually join up with the rest and start charging the same as everyone else.  Look at rod prices for instance. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

Actually, flyrods are more since that was quoted correctly.  Secondary part costs have increased dramatically since the Clinton defascoes and Greenspan screw ups with the economy. You have not used the correct price at all.  Most of the fly rods are around $500 – $700.  Just the ferrules which are all American Made  usually are nearly $200 worth.  That is not my idea of fair pricing either.  Then there are the Agate Guides, snake guides, reel seat, cork, labor. No, we don’t over charge but you sure do know how to blue sky and put things out of context.  As a Roffian, you fit right in. George Gehrke "bamboosan" http://www.gink.com George Gehrke "lowest priced bamboo fly rods regardless"

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I know what a fair price for a fly line is and you don’t Clark.  I’m telling you that you can make it sound extravagant but it isn’t.  The art work on a fly line box is more extravagant than the line, believe that.  My point is simple.  Fly lines are over priced.

For just about any manufactured goods, the cost of raw materials is minor compared to the costs incurred in research and development, manufacture, distribution, and promotion. Basing the "fair price" of a flyline on the cost of bulk PVC is about the same as saying that split-cane flyrods shouldn’t cost any more than 20 or 30 dollars because they are made of little more than bamboo, cork, steel, and nickel. Besides that, there is currently enough competition in the fly line market that I seriously doubt that an artificially high price would last for very long. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know what a fair price for a fly line is and you don’t Clark.  I’m telling you that you can make it sound extravagant but it isn’t.  The art work on a fly line box is more extravagant than the line, believe that.  My point is simple.  Fly lines are over priced. For just about any manufactured goods, the cost of raw materials is minor compared to the costs incurred in research and development, manufacture, distribution, and promotion. Basing the "fair price" of a flyline on the cost of bulk PVC is about the same as saying that split-cane flyrods shouldn’t cost any more than 20 or 30 dollars because they are made of little more than bamboo, cork, steel, and nickel. Besides that, there is currently enough competition in the fly line market that I seriously doubt that an artificially high price would last for very long. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

You make a compelling point and I bow to it. George

Response:

Any opinions on the best full sinking line for stillwater applications? steve haun sioux falls

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Any opinions on the best full sinking line for stillwater applications?

Depends what you require of it. We do a lot of reservoir fishing from boats here in the U.K. We use everything from neutral density (barely breaks through the surface) through to some fairly scary high density fly lines (e.g. Airflo DI7 and DI8). Note that these last named are proper casting tapers, not just lengths of lead core trolling line. If I were to pick only one sinking line, I’d probably choose a 3M Scientific Anglers WetCel 1 intermediate – popularly known here by its colour: the ‘Kelly Green’. It’s a nice line to cast and generally useful. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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Some people wonder why the hell little bottles of Floatant sell for $20 NZ here… Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill?  I went to my favorite or nearest Fly Shop and looked at the Cortland 555 and for $60 Cortland isn’t offering much for something that only cost them .87 Cents to make.  Hell, the packaging cost more! I just wish there was more honesty in fly line pricing than what is taking place in America today.  These fly lines should not be retailing for any more than about $15 each and this is the truth… The 555 is a new line, and the people who developed it, advertise it, distribute it, etc, all need to get paid. If they sold for only $15, the engineers (and others) currently in the flyfishing industry would move on to greener pastures, or the companies would go out of business. Maybe both. With the kind of fishing I do, and the kind of budget I’m currently living with, the budget lines made by Cortland and SA suit me just fine. OTOH, it’s nice to know that they (and others) are constantly innovating. There is a price to pay for having the newest, slickest line, but judging by the sales of high-end fly tackle, there are plenty of customers who are willing to pay for it, just as there are plenty of others who are willing to stay with the older-generation lines in order to save money for other things. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

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Bill?  I went to my favorite or nearest Fly Shop and looked at the Cortland 555 and for $60 Cortland isn’t offering much for something that only cost them .87 Cents to make.  Hell, the packaging cost more! I just wish there was more honesty in fly line pricing than what is taking place in America today.  These fly lines should not be retailing for any more than about $15 each and this is the truth…

The 555 is a new line, and the people who developed it, advertise it, distribute it, etc, all need to get paid. If they sold for only $15, the engineers (and others) currently in the flyfishing industry would move on to greener pastures, or the companies would go out of business. Maybe both. With the kind of fishing I do, and the kind of budget I’m currently living with, the budget lines made by Cortland and SA suit me just fine. OTOH, it’s nice to know that they (and others) are constantly innovating. There is a price to pay for having the newest, slickest line, but judging by the sales of high-end fly tackle, there are plenty of customers who are willing to pay for it, just as there are plenty of others who are willing to stay with the older-generation lines in order to save money for other things. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

Hi Steve, We sell most the full sinking weight forward slow sinking clear lines for a lakes. The Cortland "444 Clear Camo" is the most popular here in California, USA, planet earth. Years ago the WF6S type 2,  SA or Cortland was the most popular lake line. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any opinions on the best full sinking line for stillwater applications? steve haun sioux falls

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Bill?  I went to my favorite or nearest Fly Shop and looked at the Cortland 555 and for $60 Cortland isn’t offering much for something that only cost them .87 Cents to make.  Hell, the packaging cost more! I just wish there was more honesty in fly line pricing than what is taking place in America today.  These fly lines should not be retailing for any more than about $15 each and this is the truth. I walked into Lewiston’s Wal-Mart to buy some Cortland 444 fly lines for about the same low price of around $15 and this store said that Wal-Mart pulled not only the Cortland Fly Lines and ALL Fly Line brands but the leaders.  I no sooner got outside to my electronics center (Pick Up) and called 1-800-Wal-Mart and we had a serious discussion about this issue. Seems their light bulb may have come back on.  We will see. George

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Question:

OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to

share SNIPPEDED FOR BREVITY Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

I just love a thinkin’ man! Op

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Me too, I think it’s a good idea! Hans van der Stroom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share SNIPPEDED FOR BREVITY Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister I just love a thinkin’ man! Op

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OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share SNIPPEDED FOR BREVITY Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister I just love a thinkin’ man! Op

Shit Op, even a blind pig will find an acorn eventually. Frank Church in Elkhart, IN bassbugr AT yahoo dot com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -}<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<(((o

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will other suckers for punishment be able to tie in both groups?…just about done my flies for this round by the way…will send them off next week… Eugene

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share SNIPPEDED FOR BREVITY Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister I just love a thinkin’ man! Op Shit Op, even a blind pig will find an acorn eventually. Frank Church in Elkhart, IN bassbugr AT yahoo dot com }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<(((o

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will other suckers for punishment be able to tie in both groups?…just about done my flies for this round by the way…will send them off next week… Eugene

….well, right off the top of my bald head Eugene I don’t see why not…we might just give that a try and see how it works. At least those who don’t mind tying a bunch of flies will have a shot at it.  I’ll hold that thought till 2003. Frank Church

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OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps.

**Snipped a great plan** Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

Sounds like a good idea to me o’ Master Swapmeister Obi-wan Church! Jeff

Response:

Sounds like a great idea. I am new to the group and new to fly fishing. I plan to start tying this spring and would loved to have participated. Maybe I can get in on it next time. -wayne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. It pains me to have to turn away folks that want to be a part of it, and this year at least 5 didn’t make it and maybe more that just gave up. I think (and most would agree) that tying 40 flies is just about the max acceptable.(except for those experts who can whip out 40 in an afternoon)  So here is what I propose for future swaps…Let *everyone* sign-up, no limit. Then when the dust settles in a few days I can split the number of tyers right down the middle and wind up with 2 groups of around 20 or so. Then each half would tie for their group….this would then eliminate the cap on the number of tyers and nobody would have to tie more flies than just their group. (except me of course, being a glutton for punishment..I would tie the total number of both groups) Nothing else would be changed, just send ‘em in to me and I’ll divvy up the flies according to the group you are in. The Great Fly Swap will *always* commence on Jan 1st, and after the 2 groups have been established, a time limit will be announced as to when the flies are to be in to me. Any comments, questions will be entertained. Criticisms will be shitcanned immediately. :-] Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

Response:

just about done my flies for this round by the way…will send them off next week… Eugene

Show off!

Response:

The size twenty group sounds good.  I had trouble this year tying 40 flys of the same pattern, no two of which were alike. Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. It pains me to have to turn away folks that want to be a part of it, and this year at least 5 didn’t make it and maybe more that just gave up. I think (and most would agree) that tying 40 flies is just about the max acceptable.(except for those experts who can whip out 40 in an afternoon)  So here is what I propose for future swaps…Let *everyone* sign-up, no limit. Then when the dust settles in a few days I can split the number of tyers right down the middle and wind up with 2 groups of around 20 or so. Then each half would tie for their group….this would then eliminate the cap on the number of tyers and nobody would have to tie more flies than just their group. (except me of course, being a glutton for punishment..I would tie the total number of both groups)  Nothing else would be changed, just send ‘em in to me and I’ll divvy up the flies according to the group you are in. The Great Fly Swap will *always* commence on Jan 1st, and after the 2 groups have been established, a time limit will be announced as to when the flies are to be in to me. Any comments, questions will be entertained. Criticisms will be shitcanned immediately. :-] Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

Response:

The size twenty group sounds good.  I had trouble this year tying 40 flys of the same pattern, no two of which were alike. Lou

Lou…. no problem, we only see one fly…. who is to know what the other 40 look like… <g Frank, is this 20 quantity retroactive? <g Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

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Lou…. no problem, we only see one fly…. who is to know what the other 40 look like… <g Frank, is this 20 quantity retroactive? <g Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com

Too late Walt, wished I had thought of it sooner tho. Frank

Response:

YOU!  WILL TIE THIS FLY!!!!! Frank Church Me too, I think it’s a good idea! Hans van der Stroom

not

Response:

Frank how about a 2nd Swap ? … Say 20-30 people, around March 15, call it March Madness or something. Start with those who don’t make the Jan 1 list, then open up to those who can’t get enough pain (like me) q8-) Gary         I tie, I fly, so I buy, …therefor I’m broke. OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. It pains me to have to turn away folks that want to be a part of it, and this year at least 5 didn’t make it and maybe more that just gave up.

Snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any comments, questions will be entertained. Criticisms will be shitcanned immediately. :-] Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

Response:

Frank how about a 2nd Swap ? … Say 20-30 people, around March 15, call it March Madness or something.

We have a volunteer swapmeister!

Response:

Frank how about a 2nd Swap ? … Say 20-30 people, around March 15, call it March Madness or something. Start with those who don’t make the Jan 1 list, then open up to those who can’t get enough pain (like me) q8-) Gary

…..sounds like a reasonable suggestion Gary, but for me I’d just as soon get it over and done with in the first part of the winter. Beginning in March, a good many of our folks are starting to think seriously about going fishing after the enforced time-out thru the winter months…me for example. Now, if anyone else wants to take that on, be my guest.  After the dust settles from the Great Fly Swap (maybe I oughta copyright that :-] )  I’m ready to move on to something else, like getting my boat ready and haunting the local lakes here for ice-out. Glad to see someone else is in to pain too. :-  Seems to me that splitting the total number of tyers into two groups in Jan. might be the better choice. Several agreed with me, and no criticisms were allowed anyway so I had nothing but positive feedback. (smiley implied here) Frank I’m not broke so much from fishing stuff, but I have a high-maintenance wife and a cat that demands top of the line kitty food.

Response:

OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps.

Gee Frank, that’s such a good idea, I’m glad I though of it.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. Gee Frank, that’s such a good idea, I’m glad I though of it.  :-) Joe F.

If you’re saying you thought of it first, I’m not surprised. And if you mentioned it I either didn’t see it or have forgotten already. *That* doesn’t surprise me!  Let’s give credit where credit is due, thank you Joe. Frank the plagiarizer Church

Response:

And if you mentioned it I either didn’t see it or have forgotten already. *That* doesn’t surprise me!

Actually, that’s how I’d set up the ground rules for the DDFS; but since folks weren’t exactly beating down the door for that one, implementation of that scheme never came into play; and it was (quite appropriately) forgotten.   I’m not due any credit, just having a little smile.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

I’m not due any credit, just having a little smile.  :-)

Of course, the *first* one to think of that was… <g — Charlie…

Response:

What am I supposed to think of this kind of reactions to what appears to be a rather normal answer to a rather normal question, Mr. Gehrke? Did good old Alois finally got his hands on you? Hans van der Stroom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – YOU!  WILL TIE THIS FLY!!!!! Frank Church Me too, I think it’s a good idea! Hans van der Stroom not

Response:

What am I supposed to think of this kind of reactions to what appears to be a rather normal answer to a rather normal question, Mr. Gehrke? Did good old Alois finally got his hands on you? Hans van der Stroom

I’m glad you thought of that Hans.  Perhaps? George Von Gehrke "the Baron of Roff"

Response:

Gehrke writes: George Von Gehrke "the Baron of Roff"

You misspelled moron. Pirate

Response:

Gehrke writes: George Von Gehrke "the Baron of Roff" You misspelled moron. Excuse me.  It’s spelled "LaCourse"

George Gehrke Pirate Stomper

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Charlie Choc wrote… I’m not due any credit, just having a little smile.  :-) Of course, the *first* one to think of that was… <g

We all know how that one goes….. http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2722174 — Warren Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. It pains me to have to turn away folks that want to be a part of it, and this year at least 5 didn’t make it and maybe more that just gave up. I think (and most would agree) that tying 40 flies is just about the max acceptable.(except for those experts who can whip out 40 in an afternoon)  So here is what I propose for future swaps…Let *everyone* sign-up, no limit. Then when the dust settles in a few days I can split the number of tyers right down the middle and wind up with 2 groups of around 20 or so. Then each half would tie for their group….this would then eliminate the cap on the number of tyers and nobody would have to tie more flies than just their group. (except me of course, being a glutton for punishment..I would tie the total number of both groups)  Nothing else would be changed, just send ‘em in to me and I’ll divvy up the flies according to the group you are in. The Great Fly Swap will *always* commence on Jan 1st, and after the 2 groups have been established, a time limit will be announced as to when the flies are to be in to me. Any comments, questions will be entertained. Criticisms will be shitcanned immediately. :-] Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

Response:

Question:

I didn’t even make the freaking list–nor did I go fishing this weekend. Man alive. I guess I’m gonna hafta call my mom and tell her never to come visit again. Otherwise, I won’t be able to keep up with the Joneses…er, Wolfgangs. –Steve

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF, I find 600 messages!  Some of which were even about fishing!

Response:

…         but a night with the check out lady at the pixie motel after an evening embellished by a neil young cd marathon and re-heated pizza during rest breaks would render you positively cuddly, forty ol man.

I’m confident that "little wayno’s cuddle therapy and aerobic exercise program" would render me cuddly but I’m afraid I just couldn’t bring myself to eat re-heated pizza. — Ken Fortenberry- gotta draw the line somewhere

Response:

Lemme guess, are you in Minnesota, or thereabouts?  We had a system blow through here on Friday, had a good 7 inches on the ground Saturday morning. Put a real damper on the weekend fishing plans.

Nope..Denver.  It snowed pretty much all day Saturday, but without significant accumulation.  Sunday was nice, though, and yesterday was 80s again.

Response:

day tripper writes: CRAP! I’ve slipped to number 14 – even HWMNBN held me higher than that! /daytripper (I was Number 6 once! ;^)

And yesterday you were in #2, deep into #2 with a broken wading stick!   Shoot, if we didn’t go fishing yesterday, we coulda both been higher in the stats. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Hell Kevin, I couldn’t be "really nice" if you promised me a private concert by the Guarneri String Quartet, dinner for two catered by Rick Bayless and a night of sweaty sex with Gabrielle Reece.

        of course not; who could, left to be entertained by those pallid pretenders.         but a night with the check out lady at the pixie motel after an evening embellished by a neil young cd marathon and re-heated pizza during rest breaks would render you positively cuddly, forty ol man.         wayno

Response:

<list snipped Damn, I better start participating more. bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

Response:

Not yet maybe some time in the next week

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF, I find 600 messages!  Some of which were even about fishing! Here are the most prolific posters, in order: 61  Wolfgang Siebeniech 38  Muskie 27  Chip Bartholomay 25  Dave LaCourse     Vern Ursenbach 23  Guyz N Flyz     Ken Fortenberry 20  ET1 19  Charlie Choc 18  JeffC 1474 17  flyfish     MFassett     Peter Charles 15  Daytripper 14  Mike Connor     rw 13  Walt Winter     Wayne Harrison 10  Dave Snedeker     Warren Findley Let’s see, I have been out of the office for about 64 hours or so.  Assuming that Wolfgang sleeps 8 hours per night (though I frankly don’t have much faith in that assumption) then he was awake for 40 hours, then he fires off an average of 1.525 posts per hour while he is awake.  Though when I look at the time stamps on his posts, he often fires off messages in bursts of more than one per minute.  Hell, I couldn’t even type that fast, much less read all of the messages and think of what I wanted to say. Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing! Next weekend is a holiday, and you most likely don’t have to go to work on Friday.  Pull the plug on that damn computer, load up the fly rods and the kids and the dog or whatever, and go fishing.  Get a tan on that pasty white skin.  Next Monday, I want to see some fishing reports on here, dammit! Wolfgang, I believe its time for your friends and loved ones to do an intervention… Kevin PS.  The doctor also prescribes that you should all catch, kill, fry, and eat one cast-iron skillet full of your favorite panfish. He believes that will go a long way towards calming down the level of bitchiness that has been permeating the board for quite some time now.

Response:

Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF,

        great post.         to paraphrase a great american, who was speaking about a small college in new hampshire, may i say this about roff:         it is a small place, sir; but there are those of us who love it. wayno

Response:

stuck in the middle again…. Flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF, I find 600 messages!  Some of which were even about fishing! Here are the most prolific posters, in order: 61  Wolfgang Siebeniech 38  Muskie 27  Chip Bartholomay 25  Dave LaCourse     Vern Ursenbach 23  Guyz N Flyz     Ken Fortenberry 20  ET1 19  Charlie Choc 18  JeffC 1474 17  flyfish     MFassett     Peter Charles 15  Daytripper 14  Mike Connor     rw 13  Walt Winter     Wayne Harrison 10  Dave Snedeker     Warren Findley Let’s see, I have been out of the office for about 64 hours or so.  Assuming that Wolfgang sleeps 8 hours per night (though I frankly don’t have much faith in that assumption) then he was awake for 40 hours, then he fires off an average of 1.525 posts per hour while he is awake.  Though when I look at the time stamps on his posts, he often fires off messages in bursts of more than one per minute.  Hell, I couldn’t even type that fast, much less read all of the messages and think of what I wanted to say. Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing! Next weekend is a holiday, and you most likely don’t have to go to work on Friday.  Pull the plug on that damn computer, load up the fly rods and the kids and the dog or whatever, and go fishing.  Get a tan on that pasty white skin.  Next Monday, I want to see some fishing reports on here, dammit! Wolfgang, I believe its time for your friends and loved ones to do an intervention… Kevin PS.  The doctor also prescribes that you should all catch, kill, fry, and eat one cast-iron skillet full of your favorite panfish. He believes that will go a long way towards calming down the level of bitchiness that has been permeating the board for quite some time now.

Response:

Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF, I find 600 messages!  Some of which were even about fishing! Here are the most prolific posters, in order: 61  Wolfgang Siebeniech 38  Muskie 27  Chip Bartholomay 25  Dave LaCourse     Vern Ursenbach 23  Guyz N Flyz     Ken Fortenberry 20  ET1 19  Charlie Choc 18  JeffC 1474 17  flyfish     MFassett     Peter Charles 15  Daytripper 14  Mike Connor     rw 13  Walt Winter     Wayne Harrison 10  Dave Snedeker     Warren Findley Let’s see, I have been out of the office for about 64 hours or so.  Assuming that Wolfgang sleeps 8 hours per night (though I frankly don’t have much faith in that assumption) then he was awake for 40 hours, then he fires off an average of 1.525 posts per hour while he is awake.  Though when I look at the time stamps on his posts, he often fires off messages in bursts of more than one per minute.  Hell, I couldn’t even type that fast, much less read all of the messages and think of what I wanted to say. Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing! Next weekend is a holiday, and you most likely don’t have to go to work on Friday.  Pull the plug on that damn computer, load up the fly rods and the kids and the dog or whatever, and go fishing.  Get a tan on that pasty white skin.  Next Monday, I want to see some fishing reports on here, dammit! Wolfgang, I believe its time for your friends and loved ones to do an intervention… Kevin PS.  The doctor also prescribes that you should all catch, kill, fry, and eat one cast-iron skillet full of your favorite panfish. He believes that will go a long way towards calming down the level of bitchiness that has been permeating the board for quite some time now.

Response:

Here are the most prolific posters, in order:

What’s the ranking by word count? Who uses the most vowels? — Charlie…

Response:

Geez, … I find 600 messages! …  

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and hazard a guess that you were not forced at gunpoint to read even one of those messages. Which begs the question, what in the hell are you whining about ? — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

sunofabeech… the thought of wayno posting as much as me just rankles the shitoughta me. 14 at ya wayno ;^) waldo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF, I find 600 messages!  Some of which were even about fishing! Here are the most prolific posters, in order: 61  Wolfgang Siebeniech 38  Muskie 27  Chip Bartholomay 25  Dave LaCourse     Vern Ursenbach 23  Guyz N Flyz     Ken Fortenberry 20  ET1 19  Charlie Choc 18  JeffC 1474 17  flyfish     MFassett     Peter Charles 15  Daytripper 14  Mike Connor     rw 13  Walt Winter     Wayne Harrison 10  Dave Snedeker     Warren Findley Let’s see, I have been out of the office for about 64 hours or so.  Assuming that Wolfgang sleeps 8 hours per night (though I frankly don’t have much faith in that assumption) then he was awake for 40 hours, then he fires off an average of 1.525 posts per hour while he is awake.  Though when I look at the time stamps on his posts, he often fires off messages in bursts of more than one per minute.  Hell, I couldn’t even type that fast, much less read all of the messages and think of what I wanted to say. Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing! Next weekend is a holiday, and you most likely don’t have to go to work on Friday.  Pull the plug on that damn computer, load up the fly rods and the kids and the dog or whatever, and go fishing.  Get a tan on that pasty white skin.  Next Monday, I want to see some fishing reports on here, dammit! Wolfgang, I believe its time for your friends and loved ones to do an intervention… Kevin PS.  The doctor also prescribes that you should all catch, kill, fry, and eat one cast-iron skillet full of your favorite panfish. He believes that will go a long way towards calming down the level of bitchiness that has been permeating the board for quite some time now.

– Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com http://auctions.yahoo.com/booth/ezflyfish_com Used, Rare, & Out-of-Print Books: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

Response:

A check was done on ROFF to see who was most prolific, Wolfgang won with sixty one, 1.525 per hour to be specific. Charlie asked then for more info, especially regarding vowels, perhaps it would be more informative to check on movements of the bowels ? This would explain a lot, and is not at all designed to slight the winner, but quite a lot of posts arise it seems from an undigested dinner, it is well known that poor digestion may result in bellyaching, and even those without this malady, seem pretty good at faking. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

/daytripper (I was Number 6 once! ;^)

Yeah, yeah.  You coulda been a contender.  Bunch a has beens and never wases.  Come ta Nort Carolina kid, I’ll learn ya sumthin.

Response:

If you’re really nice to me, I might be able to tell you where to find a spring-fed cool water stream that has smallmouth and rock bass in it, only minutes away from the Cham-bana city limits.  But only if you’re really nice… Kevin MS Math, ‘86, UIUC

Kevin, Would you be so kind as to do me and a few other clavesters a favor…. don’t tell Ken… tell me/us. We’ll have a blast listening to him begging and whining for the details at the upcoming clave …. hell, he may even be civil if we play our cards right waldo

Response:

… If I was, I might complain about the tone of hostility in some of the posts, but I’ve noticed that everybody who’s done that in the past has been flamed medium rare.

Whiners rarely get off medium rare. They’re usually flamed to a blackened piece of charred cinder. …  But only if you’re really nice…

Hell Kevin, I couldn’t be "really nice" if you promised me a private concert by the Guarneri String Quartet, dinner for two catered by Rick Bayless and a night of sweaty sex with Gabrielle Reece. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and hazard a guess that you were not forced at gunpoint to read even one of those messages. Which begs the question, what in the hell are you whining about ? — Ken Fortenberry

Don’t worry, I didn’t bother reading them all, and I wasn’t whining. Merely expressing amazement…  If I was, I might complain about the tone of hostility in some of the posts, but I’ve noticed that everybody who’s done that in the past has been flamed medium rare.  So I definitely won’t complain about that. If you’re really nice to me, I might be able to tell you where to find a spring-fed cool water stream that has smallmouth and rock bass in it, only minutes away from the Cham-bana city limits.  But only if you’re really nice… Kevin MS Math, ‘86, UIUC

Response:

Also, in my own defense, I must say that I was pissing away my time at work, not my fishing time.  :-) I’ll quit now before I make my own list. Kevin

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geez, I go home for the weekend, and when I fire up the computer on Monday morning and check out ROFF, I find 600 messages!  Some of which were even about fishing! Here are the most prolific posters, in order: 61  Wolfgang Siebeniech 38  Muskie 27  Chip Bartholomay 25  Dave LaCourse    Vern Ursenbach 23  Guyz N Flyz    Ken Fortenberry 20  ET1 19  Charlie Choc 18  JeffC 1474 17  flyfish    MFassett    Peter Charles 15  Daytripper 14  Mike Connor    rw 13  Walt Winter    Wayne Harrison 10  Dave Snedeker    Warren Findley

CRAP! I’ve slipped to number 14 – even HWMNBN held me higher than that! /daytripper (I was Number 6 once! ;^)

Response:

I got a staff writes this shit for me.  Frankly, I rarely even check the board any more; who’s got time to read?.  I get hourly synopses from my secretary.  I tell her "three fuck yous, two one liners, and a couplea hey good buddies", or whatever.  Two, three lawyers and a couplea high school kids sits in the back room and write.  I get a sheet with all kindsa crap on it.  I check this one, cross out that one, yada, yada, yada.  61 over the course of the weekend, huh?  Somebody’s slippin in some of his own stuff.  I never authorized that many.  Heads will fuckin roll!!  Thanks for the heads up.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here are the most prolific posters, in order: 61  Wolfgang Siebeniech 38  Muskie 27  Chip Bartholomay 25  Dave LaCourse     Vern Ursenbach 23  Guyz N Flyz     Ken Fortenberry 20  ET1 19  Charlie Choc 18  JeffC 1474 17  flyfish     MFassett     Peter Charles 15  Daytripper 14  Mike Connor     rw 13  Walt Winter     Wayne Harrison 10  Dave Snedeker     Warren Findley Let’s see, I have been out of the office for about 64 hours or so.  Assuming that Wolfgang sleeps 8 hours per night (though I frankly don’t have much faith in that assumption) then he was awake for 40 hours, then he fires off an average of 1.525 posts per hour while he is awake.  Though when I look at the time stamps on his posts, he often fires off messages in bursts of more than one per minute.  Hell, I couldn’t even type that fast, much less read all of the messages and think of what I wanted to say. Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing! Next weekend is a holiday, and you most likely don’t have to go to work on Friday.  Pull the plug on that damn computer, load up the fly rods and the kids and the dog or whatever, and go fishing.  Get a tan on that pasty white skin.  Next Monday, I want to see some fishing reports on here, dammit! Wolfgang, I believe its time for your friends and loved ones to do an intervention…

Of course one could say the same about someone who went through the trouble of compiling a listing of the number of times people posted in a 64 hour period….     – Ken

Response:

Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing!

Yep…sure is, but it snowed here Saturday, so there was not much fishing opportunity.  Had to do something!

Response:

Of course one could say the same about someone who went through the trouble of compiling a listing of the number of times people posted in a 64 hour period….     – Ken

Actually, that very thought occured to me while I was doing it. Fortunately, thanks the miracle of modern technology, it didn’t take but a few clicks of the mouse to do.  I do graciously accept the honorable mention prize in the time wasting competition. Kevin

Response:

Look out the windows, boys; its spring!  Time to go fishing! Yep…sure is, but it snowed here Saturday, so there was not much fishing opportunity.  Had to do something!

Lemme guess, are you in Minnesota, or thereabouts?  We had a system blow through here on Friday, had a good 7 inches on the ground Saturday morning. Put a real damper on the weekend fishing plans. Kevin

Response:

Question:

Why write what you would like to express in such large letters?

It’s a question of a diciple to his / her beloved master Osho. In order to make a clear viewable difference the bookprinting company decided to choose this typo with large letters for the question.  It seems to me that you aren’t very confident of beliefs and that’s why you feel forced to "scream" your thoughts.

Who’m are you talking to? This was a question asked by an anonymous disciple at the 18th of August 1976 in the Buddha Hall of the Ashram in Poona / India and I’m not shure that this disciple will read your posting in this NG … However it’s fruitless to make assumptions because I don’t know you.

Indeed – we all don’t know this person. Or are you assuming that I’m – Hari Har Singh – Osho??? I don’t hope so … Arguing is worthless, if it’s knowledge we seek, then open-discussion is more appropriate.

There are many ways to knowledge. An open discussion is allways wellcomned. Who likes to be told that they’re wrong, anyway.

Better to be told that 1 time than running along the wrong way a whole lifetime, hm? We all have different points of view, different perceptions of things, so how could you tell someone that they are wrong?

Many ppl have been and are wrong. That’s nothing impossible. To make mistakes is human. And do you want to leave them in their mistake if you can give them a hint? Simply because you’re right doesn’t make someone else wrong, does it?

??? To who’m are you talking to?? I never said that I’m "right"! Science can’t be denied, I agree with that…however I feel something, an energy that I can’t describe personally through science.  If anyone would be felt by everyone.

Are the Ionsons possibly thinking that I’m Osho?? Shall I really write big QUOTE – QUOTE – QUOTE – QUOTE lines in the next Osho quote I send? The next time I quote Mr. Bill Clinton, Albert Einstein or the Pope maybe somebody thinks I’m one of these persons … That’s a nice trick!! )) — Sat Nam – Hari Har Singh The second question: Question 2

<snipped

Response:

Why write what you would like to express in such large letters?  It seems to me that you aren’t very confident of beliefs and that’s why you feel forced to "scream" your thoughts.  However it’s fruitless to make assumptions because I don’t know you.  Arguing is worthless, if it’s knowledge we seek, then open-discussion is more appropriate.  Who likes to be told that they’re wrong, anyway.  We all have different points of view, different perceptions of things, so how could you tell someone that they are wrong?  Simply because you’re right doesn’t make someone else wrong, does it?  Science can’t be denied, I agree with that…however I feel something, an energy that I can’t describe personally through science.  If anyone would be felt by everyone. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The second question: Question 2 EACH CENTER OPENING BRINGS A DIFFERENT JEWEL: KUNDALINI, BALANCE, LOVE, EXPRESSION, A DIAMOND MIND. THIS IS THE DILEMMA: WHICH TO CHOOSE? YOU SAY CHOICELESSNESS IS BLISS, BUT SOCIETY REWARDS SPECIALISTS. ALSO, ON THE CELLULAR LEVEL, THE EVOLUTION OF COMPLEX ORGANISMS ARISES OUT OF THE INCREASING SPECIALIZATION OF ITS CELLS. YES, my emphasis is not to choose — be choiceless. Because if you choose, you become narrow. Every choice narrows you down. Every choice says, "Now I will have a window to the sky, not the whole sky." Why? Why have a frame to the sky? The sky is frameless. When you stand at a window and look into the sky, you have falsified the sky — because your window-frame looks as if it is framed on the sky. Then you have only a limited vision, narrow. Why be poor? Why not come out of the house and see the sky as it is — infinite? To me, life is an infinite expanding energy. Don’t make any choice! That’s why I don’t put sannyas against the world. I say be a sannyasin and be in the world, because a sannyasin, if he chooses the life of the monk and escapes from the world, will be poorer for that — because the world has many things to give to you. It is a tremendously beautiful device of God’s — to help you grow, to give you challenges, to give you new adventures; to give you opportunities to test yourself, your awareness, your being. If you escape from the world you will be escaping from all these opportunities. Sitting in a cave in the Himalayas you will be very poor — poor in the sense that you will not have richness of experience. And by and by you will become stupid. You will become silent — that’s true — because there will be nothing to distract you. But that silence also is of the Himalayas, it is not yours. Come back to the world and in the marketplace you will see your silence has disappeared. It was not yours — it was part of the Himalayan silence. You were deceived by yourself. When silence happens in the marketplace then it is true, then it is yours — now nobody can take it away. Now no distraction can be a distraction to you. You can remain anywhere; whatsoever the situation, your silence will remain there as a deep substratum to your being. It is inner. So I don’t say leave the world. I say be in the world and yet be beyond it — so that you can have both the experiences of the sansari, the worldly, and the sannyasin, the other-worldly. When both are possible, why choose? Make life as big as possible. Don’t narrow it down. "Each center opening brings a different jewel… the dilemma is which to choose." No, no need to choose any center. All the centers, all the seven chakras of the body, have to function well. All the centers of the body have to function in a unity, in an organic unity. From sex to sahasrar, from the first to the seventh, they should vibrate like an orchestra. You can choose one center. That’s what people have done: some people have chosen the sex center — they remain, around and around they go. They move in a circle. Their whole life remains just a process of sexuality — very poor. I don’t call them sinners; I simply call them very poor people. And poor by their own choice — when more was possible. It is as if you have an aeroplane and you yoke bullocks to it and use it as a bullock-cart. You are poor — not a sinner. You are simply foolish, stupid! Or you can use the aeroplane like a truck, like a bus — a little better than the bullock-cart, but still you are foolish. Such a costly vehicle, and you are using it as a bus! A vehicle that can fly into the skies, you are using it as a truck on the road. That’s what is happening. You have a beautiful orchestra within you, the full range, all the colors, all the notes — all that is possible is possible within you, but you cling to one center: the sex. Somebody clings to some other center, somebody to some other. And then there are people who think: "Leave all this, and we should just remain in the ajna chakra — in the third-eye center." That too is narrowing down your being. Better than being a bullock-cart but still you are a truck on the road. Then there are a few who think that they have to use only the sahasrar against all the six — then again you are confining your being. Then you have an aeroplane, but you never get down on the earth. You are going to have a big accident sooner or later because sooner or later the gas will be finished, the petrol will not be there. Flying continuously is dangerous. Sometimes come back to the earth, down to earth; refill the petrol, rest, relax; get ready to fly again. That’s the way. And the earth is beautiful — as much as the sky. The stars are beautiful, but have you watched, sitting in an aeroplane? — you cannot look very long in the sky, it is boring. It is beautiful, but it is monotonous. People start falling asleep sooner or later. They look outside the window for a little while and then they feel bored — it is monotonous. Earth is tremendously beautiful, never monotonous. So many flowers, so many trees, s o many birds, so many people. My emphasis is to live in all the seven centers together. Never lose contact with the lowest, and never avoid flying with the highest. Use all the centers! Then your wings will be in the sky and your roots will be in the earth. And a perfect man is a meeting of heaven and earth — that’s what Taoists say: a meeting of heaven and earth. That’s what a perfect man is: meeting of the physical and the spiritual, meeting of the body and the soul, meeting of the world and renunciation, meeting of prose and poetry. AND THE questioner asks: "You say choicelessness is bliss but society rewards specialists." That’s true — society is not interested in your bliss: society is interested in its own efficiency. Society is not bothered whether you are ecstatic or not — that is none of its business. Society wants you to be just efficient mechanisms, robots. Do the work that society wants you to do, and then the society is finished with you. What you do with your own being is none of its business. In fact, the society wants you not to do anything on your own, because that can become a distraction from efficiency. A man who is very happy cannot be so efficient — because he is so bubbling with happiness that efficiency seems trivial. What does it matter whether you earn one thousand rupees a month or ten thousand rupees a month? If his needs are fulfilled, a happy man doesn’t bother. He stops at a point; he is not obsessed with money. If a happy man sees that five days working is enough, then two days he rests — goes fishing or to the mountains. If he sees that only two days working is enough, then he works two days — in five days there are many more important things to do. He has to compose poetry, and he has to play his guitar, and he has to dance; and he has to just sit with friends and gossip; he has to meditate, pray, dance — he has a thousand and one things. His work is a need he has to fulfill. He enjoys it, but he is not obsessed with it. A happy man is never a perfectionist. Only unhappy people are perfectionists, only unhappy people are obsessed with their work — because that is the only way they can avoid themselves, they can avoid facing themselves. they can avoid encountering themselves. They are continuously working; late hours they will go on working; unless they fall asleep they go on working. Why? because they are afraid. If they stop work, then what to do? Then they are left to themselves and they cannot face themselves. Society is, of course, interested in specialists. And specialists, more or less, become inhuman — because they know too much about too little. Their whole vision becomes narrow, narrow, narrow. I have heard — the story must belong to the twenty-first century: One man knocked at a doctor’s, an eye specialist’s office, and he said, "My left eye is hurting very much, and I cannot see rightly, my vision is blurred." The doctor said, "Excuse me, I am sorry, but I specialize only in right eyes. For the left eye you will have to go to some other specialist." Narrower and narrower goes on the path of the specialist. He never sees the tree; he only can see the leaf. The whole is lost in the part. And, of course, the part cannot exist without the whole. In fact, all divisions are arbitrary. The leaf is not separate from the branch; the branch is not separate from the tree; the tree is not separate from the roots; the roots are not separate from the earth. Everything is in organic unity. The specialist goes on dividing, and by and by those divisions, those demarcations, take on too much importance. A specialist becomes inhuman. I have heard: A doctor put an elderly man on a diet because of his weight problem. The man returned to his doctor in two months’ time and he had lost dozens of pounds. The doctor was very pleased with the result. The patient said, "I

… read more »

Response:

The second question: Question 2 EACH CENTER OPENING BRINGS A DIFFERENT JEWEL: KUNDALINI, BALANCE, LOVE, EXPRESSION, A DIAMOND MIND. THIS IS THE DILEMMA: WHICH TO CHOOSE? YOU SAY CHOICELESSNESS IS BLISS, BUT SOCIETY REWARDS SPECIALISTS. ALSO, ON THE CELLULAR LEVEL, THE EVOLUTION OF COMPLEX ORGANISMS ARISES OUT OF THE INCREASING SPECIALIZATION OF ITS CELLS. YES, my emphasis is not to choose — be choiceless. Because if you choose, you become narrow. Every choice narrows you down. Every choice says, "Now I will have a window to the sky, not the whole sky." Why? Why have a frame to the sky? The sky is frameless. When you stand at a window and look into the sky, you have falsified the sky — because your window-frame looks as if it is framed on the sky. Then you have only a limited vision, narrow. Why be poor? Why not come out of the house and see the sky as it is — infinite? To me, life is an infinite expanding energy. Don’t make any choice! That’s why I don’t put sannyas against the world. I say be a sannyasin and be in the world, because a sannyasin, if he chooses the life of the monk and escapes from the world, will be poorer for that — because the world has many things to give to you. It is a tremendously beautiful device of God’s — to help you grow, to give you challenges, to give you new adventures; to give you opportunities to test yourself, your awareness, your being. If you escape from the world you will be escaping from all these opportunities. Sitting in a cave in the Himalayas you will be very poor — poor in the sense that you will not have richness of experience. And by and by you will become stupid. You will become silent — that’s true — because there will be nothing to distract you. But that silence also is of the Himalayas, it is not yours. Come back to the world and in the marketplace you will see your silence has disappeared. It was not yours — it was part of the Himalayan silence. You were deceived by yourself. When silence happens in the marketplace then it is true, then it is yours — now nobody can take it away. Now no distraction can be a distraction to you. You can remain anywhere; whatsoever the situation, your silence will remain there as a deep substratum to your being. It is inner. So I don’t say leave the world. I say be in the world and yet be beyond it — so that you can have both the experiences of the sansari, the worldly, and the sannyasin, the other-worldly. When both are possible, why choose? Make life as big as possible. Don’t narrow it down. "Each center opening brings a different jewel… the dilemma is which to choose." No, no need to choose any center. All the centers, all the seven chakras of the body, have to function well. All the centers of the body have to function in a unity, in an organic unity. From sex to sahasrar, from the first to the seventh, they should vibrate like an orchestra. You can choose one center. That’s what people have done: some people have chosen the sex center — they remain, around and around they go. They move in a circle. Their whole life remains just a process of sexuality — very poor. I don’t call them sinners; I simply call them very poor people. And poor by their own choice — when more was possible. It is as if you have an aeroplane and you yoke bullocks to it and use it as a bullock-cart. You are poor — not a sinner. You are simply foolish, stupid! Or you can use the aeroplane like a truck, like a bus — a little better than the bullock-cart, but still you are foolish. Such a costly vehicle, and you are using it as a bus! A vehicle that can fly into the skies, you are using it as a truck on the road. That’s what is happening. You have a beautiful orchestra within you, the full range, all the colors, all the notes — all that is possible is possible within you, but you cling to one center: the sex. Somebody clings to some other center, somebody to some other. And then there are people who think: "Leave all this, and we should just remain in the ajna chakra — in the third-eye center." That too is narrowing down your being. Better than being a bullock-cart but still you are a truck on the road. Then there are a few who think that they have to use only the sahasrar against all the six — then again you are confining your being. Then you have an aeroplane, but you never get down on the earth. You are going to have a big accident sooner or later because sooner or later the gas will be finished, the petrol will not be there. Flying continuously is dangerous. Sometimes come back to the earth, down to earth; refill the petrol, rest, relax; get ready to fly again. That’s the way. And the earth is beautiful — as much as the sky. The stars are beautiful, but have you watched, sitting in an aeroplane? — you cannot look very long in the sky, it is boring. It is beautiful, but it is monotonous. People start falling asleep sooner or later. They look outside the window for a little while and then they feel bored — it is monotonous. Earth is tremendously beautiful, never monotonous. So many flowers, so many trees, so many birds, so many people. My emphasis is to live in all the seven centers together. Never lose contact with the lowest, and never avoid flying with the highest. Use all the centers! Then your wings will be in the sky and your roots will be in the earth. And a perfect man is a meeting of heaven and earth — that’s what Taoists say: a meeting of heaven and earth. That’s what a perfect man is: meeting of the physical and the spiritual, meeting of the body and the soul, meeting of the world and renunciation, meeting of prose and poetry. AND THE questioner asks: "You say choicelessness is bliss but society rewards specialists." That’s true — society is not interested in your bliss: society is interested in its own efficiency. Society is not bothered whether you are ecstatic or not — that is none of its business. Society wants you to be just efficient mechanisms, robots. Do the work that society wants you to do, and then the society is finished with you. What you do with your own being is none of its business. In fact, the society wants you not to do anything on your own, because that can become a distraction from efficiency. A man who is very happy cannot be so efficient — because he is so bubbling with happiness that efficiency seems trivial. What does it matter whether you earn one thousand rupees a month or ten thousand rupees a month? If his needs are fulfilled, a happy man doesn’t bother. He stops at a point; he is not obsessed with money. If a happy man sees that five days working is enough, then two days he rests — goes fishing or to the mountains. If he sees that only two days working is enough, then he works two days — in five days there are many more important things to do. He has to compose poetry, and he has to play his guitar, and he has to dance; and he has to just sit with friends and gossip; he has to meditate, pray, dance — he has a thousand and one things. His work is a need he has to fulfill. He enjoys it, but he is not obsessed with it. A happy man is never a perfectionist. Only unhappy people are perfectionists, only unhappy people are obsessed with their work — because that is the only way they can avoid themselves, they can avoid facing themselves. they can avoid encountering themselves. They are continuously working; late hours they will go on working; unless they fall asleep they go on working. Why? because they are afraid. If they stop work, then what to do? Then they are left to themselves and they cannot face themselves. Society is, of course, interested in specialists. And specialists, more or less, become inhuman — because they know too much about too little. Their whole vision becomes narrow, narrow, narrow. I have heard — the story must belong to the twenty-first century: One man knocked at a doctor’s, an eye specialist’s office, and he said, "My left eye is hurting very much, and I cannot see rightly, my vision is blurred." The doctor said, "Excuse me, I am sorry, but I specialize only in right eyes. For the left eye you will have to go to some other specialist." Narrower and narrower goes on the path of the specialist. He never sees the tree; he only can see the leaf. The whole is lost in the part. And, of course, the part cannot exist without the whole. In fact, all divisions are arbitrary. The leaf is not separate from the branch; the branch is not separate from the tree; the tree is not separate from the roots; the roots are not separate from the earth. Everything is in organic unity. The specialist goes on dividing, and by and by those divisions, those demarcations, take on too much importance. A specialist becomes inhuman. I have heard: A doctor put an elderly man on a diet because of his weight problem. The man returned to his doctor in two months’ time and he had lost dozens of pounds. The doctor was very pleased with the result. The patient said, "I feel so young. doctor. Only today I saw a girl’s bare arm and I felt like biting it!" The doctor said, "You could have done. It’s only about forty calories.’ A specialist is a specialist. All specialization becomes basically inhuman. It loses track of the whole. But the society is interested in efficiency. So beware of the society. Society is not interested in your happiness, in your joy. The interest of the society is more production, efficiency, more work — and don’t ask for what, because they don’t know for what. If you work hard they will say to create better situations — for what? — to work still harder. It is just like a man who earns money and you ask him "For what?" He says, "To earn more money. "And then you earn more money, then what?" He says "To earn still more money." The thing seems to be vicious. The individual has totally different interests from the society, because the society has no soul. The society is soulless. And if you become too much a part of the society, it will reduce your soul also to a … read more »

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Question:

Our general river opener is June 1st so you need to plan. I suggest the Yakima, year round water, good range of hatches, suggest you call Patricks Fly Shop (Seattle) or Morning Hatch Flyshop in Tacoma for conditions and advise. Float it for app. $350 for two all day from Elllensburg down Canyon. Lots of bank access also and drive down canyon in spring is great. Fair access for wading in upper canyon between E-burg and Cle Elum. The Middle Fork of the Snoqualmie is also open all year, smaller river, lots of small trout. Overall best bet is to take I-90 over Snoqualmie Pass, get off about four miles West of Cle Elum if you want to eat in Roslyn, or off at Cle Elum onto State Route 10, you can access the river right away if you take right to "North Cle Elum" just as you come into town. If you pay close attention to the lay of the land you will spot the access points east of town off route 10.  Follow RT 10 on down the upper canyon. The road winds lots so be careful. Access points are to the right of highway. Thru the village of Thorp and back onto I-90 to Ellensburg. Get off onto State 97 to follow river down. First access is at Thrall (just some Potato Packing sheds) to right on Ringer Road to a State F&G boat put in and parking lot. Further down river access is generally obvious off the road down to the Rosa dam. You can definitely get to the river on foot at Ringer, Umtanum, and above Red’s Riverview campground. Watch for Desert Big Horn Sheep on slopes in Canyon. Canyon Road will take you into Selah and back end of Yakima. Can take I-82 back to I-90 and home.  I don’t want to be a weenie but I do emphasize you drive carefully on 10 and 97. The country is big and scenic and it tends to pull your eyes off the road. Lots of trucks, log and ag, ripping down road. Don’t count on all hazards to be marked or the access roads to be civilized. Ellensburg has lots of motels, expensive off I-90 exits, but cheap sportsman digs are up road in town. Its a small college town (Central Washington State). Ellensburg veal and lamb are very good, even by Nebraska standards. Some great bars in old section of town. Flys: BWOs, Cahill wets, little brown stones, small nymphs, western March Brown,  ask Patricks Out on the coast the Steelhead will close down April 30th for a month. If you planned it right you could try the Bogachiel, Sol Duc etc.. With two days I wouldn’t recommend it. Lots to see out there but be prepped for weather. If you wanted to be casual about the fish, but see a great sample of the NW, and drive your ass off try this: Go over the pass and down to Yakima like I said above, go south thru the Yakima Indian Res. to Goldendale and then down the Columbia Gorge to Vancouver/Portland and back up I-5 to Tacoma/Seattle. Overnight at Goldendale. (Double ditto on what I said on the roads for the stretch between Goldendale and the Columbia River.  You would see more of the working NW than most ever see, and the pix would be spectacular, guaranteed. Now, Im in Scottsbluff in mid April. Any recommends for NW Nebraska in mid April? Dave Snedeker – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My (flyfishing) wife and I are going to be in Tacoma, WA May 26 – 30. We will be bringing our travel rods (4 weight) with us.  We’ll have two days for fishing.  Any suggestions for rivers/streams for trout withing a two hour drive of Tacoma would be appreciated.  I’m not looking for anyone’s honey hole, just a general location where access is not too rigorous All suggestions will be appreciated (also any clues as to what flies I should tie for the trip would be a big help). Thanks. Jim Impara

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My (flyfishing) wife and I are going to be in Tacoma, WA May 26 – 30. We will be bringing our travel rods (4 weight) with us.  We’ll have two days for fishing.  Any suggestions for rivers/streams for trout withing a two hour drive of Tacoma would be appreciated.  I’m not looking for anyone’s honey hole, just a general location where access is not too rigorous All suggestions will be appreciated (also any clues as to what flies I should tie for the trip would be a big help). Thanks. Jim Impara

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andrew, I am a pro photog and I have photos that you could use.  I was unable to connect to your website.   Jerry Schrader, over 30 years a pro Fine Wedding Photography http://www.weddingphoto-ma.com

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You know, I’ve NEVER seen one of those women land a fish….must be that scentthey put on the bait… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is my website.  I am looking for pictures of people to put up on it. I need some wilderness, fishing, camping, hiking, scenery, etc. you get the point (NO NUDE FLYFISHING WOMEN THIS TIME).  If anyone would send me their pics I will post them and give you credit.  Thanks again. Sincerely, Andrew Fulton http://wildhideaway.cjb.net

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Here is my website.  I am looking for pictures of people to put up on it.  I need some wilderness, fishing, camping, hiking, scenery, etc. you get the point (NO NUDE FLYFISHING WOMEN THIS TIME).  If anyone would send me their pics I will post them and give you credit.  Thanks again. Sincerely, Andrew Fulton http://wildhideaway.cjb.net

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Harrison River in British Columbia has lots of big (to 25lbs.), strong (I’ve broken at least one reel) salmon.  Chums are not great to eat, but for us catch & release people they can be fun.  Small pink marabou flies fished deep can be great.  Downstream from the bridge is a favorite spot. Help!  I’d really like more information on this fishery.  Any and all suggestions would be appreciated.  Thanks!  :-) P.S. Please E-MAIL me your response (I am usually out fishing, so I don’t have time to MONITOR this bulletin board…but email gets to me no problem).  Thanks K Lawson

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I’ve fished the Harrison for a number of years. You want chums try flour red or orange glo-bug yarn with a tinsel body. Dead drift with a type 4 sink tip. For a change of pace try cutts part on the east shore. More my style. I find the big dogs  (and if you’ve been fishing in BC as long as me you’d call them dogs) kind of boring after getting over the initial novelty of big fish on the fly. But lots of people enjoy these hard pulling fish and if that’s you’re cup of tea – you know where they are. Should continue into Nov. Try the chehalis just up the Morris Valley road by the Sasquatch Inn for mondo dogs and lots of coho. Good cutts in Dec and steelhead show in late Dec- Jan. Gets very crwoded tho’ Best of luck!

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Hans T.H. Beernink, Department of Biochemistry, University of Vermont

<snip: LOTS of good golden trout info deleted…   Ob Philosophical rantings (optional):   It seems that there is quite a mystique about the California golden   trout.  Californians like to say that it is the only trout truely native   to CA.  I know that most of the Western waters that can support goldens were   stocked with Kern goldens at one time or another (including those in Wyoming,   Colorado, and Utah), and the DFG has been hatching goldens at the foot of   Mt. Whitney for years..  There is also some debate over the different strains   of golden, in particular the small rosy fish found in the little Kern.     I’ve also heard that the golden is merely a uniquely colored rainbow, and   in fact is not a different species at all.  Whatever your angle on the   golden, it doesn’t really matter.  It’s a beautiful little fish, and fun   to catch.  Unfortunately, it’s also one of the most sensitive of the   trout.  The golden requires very clean water that is relatively   pristine.  There are lots of lakes and streams that at one time or   another held goldens, but are now incapable.  Between the effects of acid   rain, garbage from campers and hikers, and the cattle industry’s use of   the high meadows in the golden trout’s habitat, the trout are showing   signs of decline.  The fish are smaller, probably due to the lack of   food, and the waters capable of supporting goldens are fewer in number.     Let’s hope the trout are still here in a hundred years……       Best regards,   Hans   Greetings, Hans, and THANK YOU for the excellent post on golden trout.     Another problem besides habitat degredation, which DFG & others are finally realizing, has to do with the introduction of brook trout by the DFG  into Sierra lakes:  For years I have seen the brook trout spread from these lakes into the streams and rivers below them, displacing the golden (and rainbow) trout as they went.  Now finally the DFG has that "limit plus 5" or some-such program allowing you to keep an additional five brook trout beyond       the regular bag limit.  I have long made it a practice to never keep anything BUT brook trout to eat when a fresh meal of fish is in order. (Yummy, now where did I put ‘ole Mark Vinsel’s trout burrito recipe?)  In fact, I needed to buy new topo maps this year because my old ones were getting too beat up to read any more, and I was suprised to read in my new USDA Forest Service topo map the following:   "FISHING"   <SEVERAL PARAGRAPHS DELETED   "Brook trout are the most common fish in the wilderness.  They are easy to   catch and provide good trail-side meals.  A new fishing regulation allows   a larger bag -limit of small brook trout than in previous seasons!   Harvesting brook trout can improve angling by keeping the population in   check and reducing the numbers of small fish." I sure hope it isn’t too late – brook trout really do a number on the populations of golden and rainbow.     Thanks again for your informative post. Tight lines and happy trails!   -Mark Anderson

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In this newsgroup about two weeks ago there was a thread about goldens and we decided that there was no such thing as a golden over 16" in CA. In montano there are places to catch big goldens but its not the same as a CA golden.

Really.  Ralph Cutter claims in the "Sierra Trout Guide" that the California record for the Volcano Creek Golden Trout is 9 pounds, 8 ounces. That must have been one fat fish. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems  Ithaca, NY

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<snip :   :   Greetings, Hans, and THANK YOU for the excellent post on golden trout. :   :     Another problem besides habitat degredation, which DFG & others are : finally realizing, has to do with the introduction of brook trout by the : DFG  into Sierra lakes:  For years I have seen the brook trout spread from : these : lakes into the streams and rivers below them, displacing the golden (and : rainbow) trout as they went.  Now finally the DFG has that "limit plus 5" : or some-such program allowing you to keep an additional five brook trout : beyond       the regular bag limit.  I have long made it a practice to : never keep anything BUT brook trout to eat when a fresh meal of fish is in : order. (Yummy, now where did I put ‘ole Mark Vinsel’s trout burrito : recipe?)  In fact, I needed to buy new topo maps this year because my : old ones were getting too beat up to read any more, and I was suprised to : read in my new USDA Forest Service topo map the following: :   <snip :   : I sure hope it isn’t too late – brook trout really do a number on the : populations of golden and rainbow.   this is, of course, true.  Unfortunately, the DFG is responsible for the decline in "native" golden populations in the high sierras.  The brookie is not a native fish in the west.  It was, as you pointed out, introduced by the DFG, and only recently have they tried to make ammends.  In fact, some of the branches of the Kern were "poisoned" in a forced fish kill in an effort to replant the native goldens.  I don’t know if this was the correct approach, but they seem to be trying. Best regards, Hans — "The worst monotonous drone coming from a lectern or the most eye-splitting textbook written in turgid English is nothing in comparison to the psychological Sahara that starts right in your bedroom and spurns the horizon."         -Joseph Brodsky, from "In praise of Boredom"          delivered as a commencement address at Dartmouth College. Hans T.H. Beernink, Department of Biochemistry, University of Vermont

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<Regarding Golden Trout The biggest fish will be in rich lakes with limited spawning access. Lakes directly in a cirque receive sterile water, while lakes a step or two down in the chain receive water enriched by the lakes or meadows above. Lakes with more shallows and weedbeds are richest, though there has to be some deep water to protect against winterkill. The final criteria is the lack of a trail. The ideal would be a lake two steps down the chain, long and narrow, backing up into a meadow, with a single feeder stream with a falls a hundred yards above and below.  

Another reason Goldens are typically found in a chain of lakes is that, unlike cutthroat which like to spawn in inlets, Goldens spawn in lake outlets.  If there is not a lake below, the fry will wash downstream. With a chain of lakes, the fry will wash into a lower lake, where they can grow a few years, and then swim back up to their parents’ lake. — -Wayne Trzyna

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The biggest fish will be in rich lakes with limited spawning access. What do you mean?  Goldens spawn in streams.

I suspect he’s talking about the tendency of fish to overpopulate and stunt in high lakes with abundant spawning habitat but limited food. I’ve found lakes where this has happened to Goldens, as well as Cutts, and especially Brookies.  Since the original poster was looking for a trophy, he should avoid lakes with prolific spawning, unless the food supply can support it, which is rare in the types of high lakes in which Goldens are found. — -Wayne Trzyna

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All this talk about Golden trout raises another issue: patterns. What are some patterns with which folks have caught Goldens? I read somewhere that Goldens do not eat smaller fish and therefor won’t chase streamers.  Can anyone contradict this?   I personally have caught them on variaous small nymphs and dries.  At one lake, small attractors were especially effective, like a size 18 humpy. — -Wayne Trzyna

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Although it has been a long time ago–maybe 30 years–I fished one of the "sterile" lakes.  It was on the trail from Kearsearge pass to Glenn pass. Although you could swear there were no fish in it, all of a sudden, I couldn’t keep the fish from hitting the fly on the surface.  They would chase each other to get to it.  That lasted for about half an hour, and then, the lake appeare dead again. I should point out that this was in the early days of my fly fishing and sinking the fly never entered my mind. William Buchman

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: All this talk about Golden trout raises another issue: patterns. : What are some patterns with which folks have caught Goldens? : I read somewhere that Goldens do not eat smaller fish and therefor : won’t chase streamers.  Can anyone contradict this?   : I personally have caught them on variaous small nymphs and dries.  At one : lake, small attractors were especially effective, like a size 18 humpy. I’ve found that goldens in the high sierras are generally opportunists.   i.e., the high sierras have relatively little to offer in the way of mayflies/caddis/stoneflies etc., so the trout will generally eat whatever comes thier way.  Most dries will raise fish, but the bigger ones tend to like bushy attractors and terrestrials.  Try a small ‘hopper or a cricket.  Streamers *do* work too, but you generally need to put in right in front of the fish.  Smaller, flashy streamers like the micky finn or grey ghost work.  Hey, what about a wet fly?  The parmachene belle is one of my favorites, and works very well for larger goldens…. Best regards, Hans — "The worst monotonous drone coming from a lectern or the most eye-splitting textbook written in turgid English is nothing in comparison to the psychological Sahara that starts right in your bedroom and spurns the horizon."         -Joseph Brodsky, from "In praise of Boredom"          delivered as a commencement address at Dartmouth College. Hans T.H. Beernink, Department of Biochemistry, University of Vermont

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We hope to seek out California’s golden trout (catch & release) but are looking for a trophy sized fish.  We have combed the Sierra– catching goldens from 6 to 16 inches & resturned then safely back to the waters. Any suggestions for catching a golden over 16 inches.  We are not timid not without energy to go to the highest or most remote Sierra lakes. Thanking you in advance for advice. Denny

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In this newsgroup about two weeks ago there was a thread about goldens and we decided that there was no such thing as a golden over 16" in CA. In montano there are places to catch big goldens but its not the same as a CA golden. TimFLYFISH Dream of flyfishing, but also let the fish dream. C & R

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In this newsgroup about two weeks ago there was a thread about goldens and we decided that there was no such thing as a golden over 16" in CA.

Oh??? — -Wayne Trzyna

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We hope to seek out California’s golden trout (catch & release) but are looking for a trophy sized fish.  We have combed the Sierra– catching goldens from 6 to 16 inches & resturned then safely back to the waters. Any suggestions for catching a golden over 16 inches.  We are not timid not without energy to go to the highest or most remote Sierra lakes. Thanking you in advance for advice.

OY – by trophy do you mean something to put on the wall?   If you are you should understand that large goldens usually don’t have the brilliant colors that the whappers have.  I’m assuming not so I’ll offer some advice. You will have no satisfaction unless you do the work yourself. Here’s the general idea: The biggest fish will be in rich lakes with limited spawning access. Lakes directly in a cirque receive sterile water, while lakes a step or two down in the chain receive water enriched by the lakes or meadows above. Lakes with more shallows and weedbeds are richest, though there has to be some deep water to protect against winterkill. The final criteria is the lack of a trail. The ideal would be a lake two steps down the chain, long and narrow, backing up into a meadow, with a single feeder stream with a falls a hundred yards above and below.   Now get out your topos and go prospecting. Mark Vinsel Visit my gallery: http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.HTML

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: We hope to seek out California’s golden trout (catch & release) but are : looking for a trophy sized fish.  We have combed the Sierra– catching : goldens from 6 to 16 inches & resturned then safely back to the waters. : Any suggestions for catching a golden over 16 inches.  We are not timid : not without energy to go to the highest or most remote Sierra lakes. : Thanking you in advance for advice. I’ve spend a good deal of time in the Golden Trout Wilderness and the surrounding wilds of Inyo, etc., and I’ve spend most of that time fishing for Goldens. If you want a "trophy" trout, don’t fish for goldens.  Most of the fish are in the 10-12" range, and you’ll catch scads of them on almost anything.  BTW, Tim is wrong when he says that Goldens over 16" aren’t caught in CA.  In fact, I’ve caught quite a few.  They are very difficult to find, however, and it’s more luck than skill.   Most of the streams in the parks are packed with small goldens, but a fish over 12" is considered big in the streams.  The high lakes hold the big fish, but you need to be careful where you go, as some of these lakes are used as hatcheries (previously discussed….).  Most of the fry are planted in surrounding lakes, and this is often (or *was* often) done by airdropping the fry.  The fish then populate adjoining streams, etc.   It takes a hell of a long time for a golden to get big (over 18"): thus they are quite rare.   Best course of action?  Get the map, hike out for a week, and try some lakes.  Don’t dredge the bottom of the lakes, as they are generally lifeless.  Most of the fish will be in about 3-10′ water, near submerged rocks and glacial boulders.  Sometimes, the larger fish will cruise near an overhanging patch of grass if one is available. Flies?  Don’t go without a sierra red dot.  Basically its a red/orange floss body and a grizzly hackle at both the eye and bend of the hook.   Also bring the adams, humpies, some terrestrials (big ants are great, but beetles too…) and maybe a royal wulff.  I’d also try some wet flies and bright streamers.  Nymphs work, especially with some krystal flash, or other bright material (try some Z-lon..).  The bigger fish won’t rise as easily as the little ones, and expect to catch lots of fingerlings…. Ob Philosophical rantings (optional): It seems that there is quite a mystique about the California golden trout.  Californians like to say that it is the only trout truely native to CA.  I know that most of the Western waters that can support goldens were stocked with Kern goldens at one time or another (including those in Wyoming, Colorado, and Utah), and the DFG has been hatching goldens at the foot of Mt. Whitney for years..  There is also some debate over the different strains of golden, in particular the small rosy fish found in the little Kern.   I’ve also heard that the golden is merely a uniquely colored rainbow, and in fact is not a different species at all.  Whatever your angle on the golden, it doesn’t really matter.  It’s a beautiful little fish, and fun to catch.  Unfortunately, it’s also one of the most sensitive of the trout.  The golden requires very clean water that is relatively pristine.  There are lots of lakes and streams that at one time or another held goldens, but are now incapable.  Between the effects of acid rain, garbage from campers and hikers, and the cattle industry’s use of the high meadows in the golden trout’s habitat, the trout are showing signs of decline.  The fish are smaller, probably due to the lack of food, and the waters capable of supporting goldens are fewer in number.   Let’s hope the trout are still here in a hundred years…… Best regards, Hans  – "The worst monotonous drone coming from a lectern or the most eye-splitting textbook written in turgid English is nothing in comparison to the psychological Sahara that starts right in your bedroom and spurns the horizon."         -Joseph Brodsky, from "In praise of Boredom"          delivered as a commencement address at Dartmouth College. Hans T.H. Beernink, Department of Biochemistry, University of Vermont

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Randall Kaufmann of Kaufmann’s Streamborn is something of an expert on golden trout.  He usually spends multiple weeks per year in the high Sierra, and the Wind River area of WY.  I was just looking through his latest fly tying book and there are some great photos of Goldens.  If Also Kaufmann’s Streamborn has  a great color catalog that you can full color photos of lots of travel destinations.  They’ve got a new web page at http://www.teleport.com/~kman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We hope to seek out California’s golden trout (catch & release) but are looking for a trophy sized fish.  We have combed the Sierra– catching goldens from 6 to 16 inches & resturned then safely back to the waters. Any suggestions for catching a golden over 16 inches.  We are not timid not without energy to go to the highest or most remote Sierra lakes. Thanking you in advance for advice. Denny

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We hope to seek out California’s golden trout (catch & release) but are looking for a trophy sized fish.

A valid goal.  :) The biggest fish will be in rich lakes with limited spawning access.

What do you mean?  Goldens spawn in streams.  Limited access lakes such as Chicken Spring, or Funston Lake are actually dependant upon plants from DF & G.  Lakes with tributaries have the better prospects for a wild fish of size. Lakes directly in a cirque receive sterile water, while lakes a step or two down in the chain receive water enriched by the lakes or meadows above. Lakes with more shallows and weedbeds are richest, though there has to be some deep water to protect against winterkill.

I agree there.  The larger lakes have the larger fish.  Depth seems to be most important.  Shallow lakes in the High Sierra are usually sterile.  The Lake in the Eastern Sierra which has (according to Cal Fish and Game, anyway) without tributaries.  It is probably dependant upon stocking for new fish but the ones that survive get to about 20" over a period of ten or so years. The final criteria is the lack of a trail.

That is probably the *most* important factor of all.  The above mentioned lake is above timberline, about 10 miles of switchbacks from the trailhead. The last 3 miles is a rock climb.  That is why there are 20" Goldens in it. Now get out your topos and go prospecting.

Hear, hear!  I think the best part of finding those trout is fishing the ten or twenty lakes that look right but fail to produce.  Once you find the lake that you have personally prospected and sampled it becomes your personal find.  Good luck.  Take a long hard look at those topos, get out your flyrod and sample your fish! Tight lines, John Mark Vinsel Visit my gallery: http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.HTML

–                Six strings…                Nineteen frets…                Fourty four notes…                And a solid top.  What else do you need?

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