Question:

I read with interest the posts about Sage’s Lifetime Warranty, since about a month ago I made my first truly absurd flyfishing purchase, a Scott S3 5 weight 4 piece (I was able to get a $200.00 discount from the retail price, but that alone says how expensive they can be). All my previous experience has been with a fly rod from Walmart (literally), and an old St. Croix Legend 4 weight rod (what they now call an Imperial). With these rods you could lift a bowling ball without worrying about breaking the rod (well, not quite).  I used to wonder why other flyfishers broke rods so often, when I never really worried about it. One day with my Scott S3 showed me how fragile a fly rod can be.  I was playing a brown trout (best fish of the day) with too much of a jerking motion, and snap, the rod broke just above the first connection. I just finished composing my letter of woe to Scott, and after lunch the rod will be mailed. I am interested in the experiences of other Scott rod owners with their warranty program, and whether Scott will be around 5 years from now. Memphis Jim (I can’t turn on the TV without seeing Elvis).

Response:

Scott is a *great* rod company. I’ve owned various Scott rods since 1975. I broke my STS 905-4 last year in Northern Quebec falling over a rock; all I had to send back to Scott was the lowest 14" of the handle–everything else was at the bottom of the headwaters of the Caniapiscau River. The rod was replaced promptly–no questions asked. There was *no* defect–it was a clumsy dumbass move on my part–and I was very honest and upfront with Scott by telling them that.   The lady I talked to said:  "An unconditional guarantee is just that–unconditional. Send it back to us–and we’ll ship you a new one." They did–promptly.   I have no idea if the Scott Rod Company will be around 5 years from now–but I certainly hope so.   Dave M

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read with interest the posts about Sage’s Lifetime Warranty, since about a month ago I made my first truly absurd flyfishing purchase, a Scott S3 5 weight 4 piece (I was able to get a $200.00 discount from the retail price, but that alone says how expensive they can be). All my previous experience has been with a fly rod from Walmart (literally), and an old St. Croix Legend 4 weight rod (what they now call an Imperial). With these rods you could lift a bowling ball without worrying about breaking the rod (well, not quite).  I used to wonder why other flyfishers broke rods so often, when I never really worried about it. One day with my Scott S3 showed me how fragile a fly rod can be.  I was playing a brown trout (best fish of the day) with too much of a jerking motion, and snap, the rod broke just above the first connection. I just finished composing my letter of woe to Scott, and after lunch the rod will be mailed. I am interested in the experiences of other Scott rod owners with their warranty program, and whether Scott will be around 5 years from now. Memphis Jim (I can’t turn on the TV without seeing Elvis).

Response:

I fell against a tree holding my Scott G906 last year.  The section just ahead of the grip was crushed.  Scott replaced the rod without question and I got GREAT service.  I’ll buy a Scott every chance I get.  Not only for their service, I prefer their action over most rods I run across. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read with interest the posts about Sage’s Lifetime Warranty, since about a month ago I made my first truly absurd flyfishing purchase, a Scott S3 5 weight 4 piece (I was able to get a $200.00 discount from the retail price, but that alone says how expensive they can be). All my previous experience has been with a fly rod from Walmart (literally), and an old St. Croix Legend 4 weight rod (what they now call an Imperial). With these rods you could lift a bowling ball without worrying about breaking the rod (well, not quite).  I used to wonder why other flyfishers broke rods so often, when I never really worried about it. One day with my Scott S3 showed me how fragile a fly rod can be.  I was playing a brown trout (best fish of the day) with too much of a jerking motion, and snap, the rod broke just above the first connection. I just finished composing my letter of woe to Scott, and after lunch the rod will be mailed. I am interested in the experiences of other Scott rod owners with their warranty program, and whether Scott will be around 5 years from now. Memphis Jim (I can’t turn on the TV without seeing Elvis).

Response:

Amen, Clark.  If these guys werent’t so busy breaking and crushing their Scott rods, maybe James Barna wouldn’t need a $200 discount to buy a new rod… Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter. Tom G

Haven’t broken one of my rod blanks yet (the fates will strike me for sure, now) but I did send back a Loomis GL3 8′ 3 wt. rod with a bend in the tip that I had not noticed when I bought it.  They replaced it with a rod that was worse (mushy action, off centre reel seat and epoxy on the seat threads).  I sent that one back to have the reel seat redone – OK after that but the action of rod no.2 wasn’t nearly as crisp as rod no.1 despite that they were supposed to be identical 3 wts.  A couple of months later, I sold rod no.2 on eBay to a guy that was looking for a slow 2/3 wt. – the Loomis fit the bill and he was a very happy camper.  I thought rod no.2 was crap – whatever floats your boat, I suppose.  Haven’t bought a Loomis product since.  They did repair and return promptly though, as  I suppose they get lots of practice. I also sent back a Hardy 3 wt. to Cortland as the handle cork cracked when fighting a nice, fat, little 16" steelhead that wasn’t supposed to be in that part of the stream.  It was repaired and returned promptly. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

 Perhaps a new poll is in order:  How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty  on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty,  lifetime warranty, no matter.    Tom G  I have returned many items over the years; my "satisfaction level" runs the whole range. Best of the best: Galvan reels- I called them and asked for a replacement part (my fault it broke), and they replaced the whole thing for free. St Croix rods- Super fast replacement, didn’t charge for shipping, didn’t care that I broke the rod in a bicycle accident. REC Components- Sent free parts to replace the ones I’d stupidly lost. Cabelas- No questions asked, ever. Okay service, but not dazzling: Sage- Two week turnaround, they always seem to charge for shipping. Cortland- Slow turn around time. Ross reels- They took care of the problem, but it shouldn’t be sooo recurring. Crappy service, they’ve lost a customer: Redington- Kept a returned custom rod, forcing me to replace all the components. Redington again- Required the original bill of sale (which I didn’t have) on a pair of waders with a supposed four year unconditional warranty, even though they’d only been selling those waders for two years. Trout Traps- "Nobody’s ever made that complaint, it must be your imagination." Worst of the worst: Airflo lines: "Uhh, you’re shit out of luck son."

Response:

      Fuck Redington and all the re-labled imported crap they sell. I will never spend another penny on their crap. Did you consider calling them and asking about obtaining the original? They are a pretty good group of guys to work with and I bet you could have received the original hardware.  The stuff may be re-labled, but it’s not all crap.

    Yup, I called them and they told me to piss off, they’d already discarded it. I met Jim Murphy a few years ago and he seemed like a pretty decent guy, but he has some bozos working for him. Anybody who builds rods would have known what to do, but nobody at Redington builds them, they are strictly a marketing operation. And their stuff may not be all crap, but none of it is made in this hemisphere.

Response:

Not bad for a bunch of them jamokes & scaramouches.   Meow. <vbg

Man, there’s nothing like a good Tony Germuga reference to brighten one’s day. Thanks, Joe. It’s the classics that keep ya coming back . – Sid …waiting for DaveS’s next installment in the "Two Dogs Fucking" saga.

Response:

Brought it into my flyshop (Coleman’s), No charge, not even shipping. Not bad for a bunch of them jamokes & scaramouches.   Meow. <vbg Joe F.

<SPLORK VANG MU — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

Response:

    Fuck Redington and all the re-labled imported crap they sell. I will never spend another penny on their crap.

Did you consider calling them and asking about obtaining the original?   They are a pretty good group of guys to work with and I bet you could have received the original hardware.  The stuff may be re-labled, but it’s not all crap.

Response:

    Since everybody else is telling rod replacment stories, here’s my latest one.     A couple of years ago, I donated a 8′ 2wt Redington to a clave raffle. The rod was almost new, I’d fished it for less than hour. This was a custom built rod by a fairly experienced rod builder (me). The first time Willi took it out, the tip section snapped off. I returned the rod to Redington and recieved the entire rod back, along with a new tip section, so I was able to re-use all the old parts and face no out of pocket expenses, other than shipping.     Willi gave the rod to Warren last year. Warren didn’t even get it out of the tube; on a flight to somewhere, Warren got to his destination and removed the rod from the tube and found the tip section snapped off. I again returned the rod to Redington and they replaced it, but this time they kept the original, forcing me to buy all the parts I’d need to finish it. The parts they returned miked out exactly the same as the ones I sent in, so I think this is their not-so-subtle way of "taking care of" a problem customer (assuming they keep records of multiple returns).     Fuck Redington and all the re-labled imported crap they sell. I will never spend another penny on their crap.

Response:

Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter.

Tom, I’ve used the warranties on a number of products. 1. Patagonia waders. – Replaced with a new pair.  Initial estimate for replacement was 3-4 mos.  Ended up getting a new pair within a month. 2. Patagonia wading boots. – Replaced with a new pair. 3. Redington waders. – Replaced with a new pair.  Purchased first pair when I thought the Patagonia waders would take 3 mos to be replaced. 4. Scott Fly Rod – Repaired within a week. —  Nice shirt. Do they sell mens clothes where you bought that?

Response:

  Just for fun, I managed to break the same   six weight again on my very next trip to Minnesota (this on a 32" long   channel cat that ate my clouser and proceeded to tear up about 100 yards of   river, break my rod tip in two places at the landing point with violent   twisting, and then drove the hook into my thumb just for grins). The only rod I ever broke on a fish was on a Catfish too (no warranty though). They are POWERFUL fish. It was a Cat close to twenty pounds that took a tiny fly I use for Crappie. Willi

Response:

Brought it into my flyshop (Coleman’s), No charge, not even shipping.

Not bad for a bunch of them jamokes & scaramouches.   Meow. <vbg Joe F.

Response:

Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter.

Only once so far.  Cabelas Three Forks 3wt rod.  I busted the tip in the screen door.  They replaced it, didn’t even ask how it broke. I also have the Three Forks boot foot waders, in which I get wet (damp) from the knees down every time I use them.  Can never figure out if it’s from leaks or perspiration, so I just keep using them. Bill

Response:

I am interested in the experiences of other Scott rod owners with their warranty program, and whether Scott will be around 5 years from now.

I don’t own one, but a buddy has broken three in the last 18 months, all of which were replaced without hesitation or question. It’s amazing, but I also know about five other guys who won’t touch any other brand and have not ever broken one. -G

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I fell against a tree holding my Scott G906 last year.  The section just ahead of the grip was crushed.  Scott replaced the rod without question and I got GREAT service.  I’ll buy a Scott every chance I get.  Not only for their service, I prefer their action over most rods I run across. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine! I read with interest the posts about Sage’s Lifetime Warranty, since about  a month ago I made my first truly absurd flyfishing purchase, a Scott S3 5 weight 4 piece (I was able to get a $200.00 discount from the retail  price, but that alone says how expensive they can be). All my previous experience has been with a fly rod from Walmart  (literally), and an old St. Croix Legend 4 weight rod (what they now call an Imperial). With these rods you could lift a bowling ball without worrying about breaking the rod (well, not quite).  I used to wonder why other flyfishers broke rods so often, when I never really worried about it. One day with my Scott S3 showed me how fragile a fly rod can be.  I was playing a brown trout (best fish of the day) with too much of a jerking motion, and snap, the rod broke just above the first connection. I just finished composing my letter of woe to Scott, and after lunch the  rod will be mailed. I am interested in the experiences of other Scott rod owners with their warranty program, and whether Scott will be around 5 years from now. Memphis Jim (I can’t turn on the TV without seeing Elvis). Broke a Scott STS 10 weight last year on a 12 lb. Blue Fish.  Sent the rod to Scott and got it back in three weeks!  I own several Scotts! Ssteve

Response:

I am interested in the experiences of other Scott rod owners with their warranty program, and whether Scott will be around 5 years from now.

I’ve never used Scott’s warranty, but I have fished mostly Scott rods for about 25 years (I have 9 Scott rods right now). Only one was ever broken, but that was prior to the warranty program’s existence and the replacement was paid for by the airline that broke it. — Charlie…

Response:

@posting.google.com: Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter. Tom G

I bought an Orvis Far and Fine.  There were some epoxy drips on the guides that bothered me.  I sent the rod in, complaining of a workmanship problem.   Got the rod back repaired in a timely fashion. Bashed a Lamson reel on the bed of Penn’s Creek–yes, I was holding it at the time. Something got misaligned, and the reel bound. Brought it into my flyshop (Coleman’s), fully expecting Carl to tell me he needed to send it back to Lamson, and that I’d have to pay for the repair.   Carl got the reel back.  They repaired the misalignment, and replaced the spool, but included the old scuffed, but fully functional spool.  No charge, not even shipping. — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

Response:

I have found that my best fly rods (Orivs Trident) are far more delicate than any other fly or spinning rods I have ever owned.  I am thankful for the warranty and I am happy to pay an additional $100 just to get it – it has paid for itself three times over this year – and the year is not over yet!!!

If I had a car that spent so much time in the shop, I wouldn’t be calling it my "best car". Despite lifetime warrantees, a good rod shouldn’t break if someone breathes near it.  Seems like Orvis is having some QC issues. — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

Response:

How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter.

Never broke a rod.  Busted the crank off an old reel once.  Put it back on with epoxy and it’s still holding ten or twelve years later.  Lost the tip section of what appears to be a 70s vintage Sears glass rod off the roof of a Geo Tracker somewhere between Milwaukee and Penn’s creek.  Still got the butt.  Haven’t investigated the warrantee or applicability of any insurance. Wolfgang

Response:

Although I dont have a Scott, I do have a few Orvis rods with the same type of warranty.  This has been a bad year for me.  In April I broke my six weight when I slipped down a snowy hill and drove the tiptop into the ground – Orvis fixed it no questions asked.  Same week I broke my 8 weight fighting a fairly good pike in a fast moving current. Sent it back in the same package as the six weight.  Just for fun, I managed to break the same six weight again on my very next trip to Minnesota (this on a 32" long channel cat that ate my clouser and proceeded to tear up about 100 yards of river, break my rod tip in two places at the landing point with violent twisting, and then drove the hook into my thumb just for grins).  Called Orvis, told them I was a dumb ass – they said that’s fine… send it back. I have found that my best fly rods (Orivs Trident) are far more delicate than any other fly or spinning rods I have ever owned.  I am thankful for the warranty and I am happy to pay an additional $100 just to get it – it has paid for itself three times over this year – and the year is not over yet!!! YMMV Joe C.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – their service, I prefer their action over most rods I run across. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine! If you stop running across them you wont need to use that guarantee so much Clark Amen, Clark.  If these guys werent’t so busy breaking and crushing their Scott rods, maybe James Barna wouldn’t need a $200 discount to buy a new rod… Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter. Tom G

Response:

Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter.

1 St. Croix LU rod blank, tip section – replaced free of charge (broke in use) 3 STH casette spools – replaced free of charge (cracked) I’ll add that these were replaced by or through my local fly shop.   I don’t even know what the warranty is/was. Joe F.

Response:

Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter.

I had a T&T VE 907S-3 break about 6" from the tip on the 2nd day of use in Denmark this year. They repaired it under warranty, albeit slowly. — Charlie…

Response:

their service, I prefer their action over most rods I run across. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

If you stop running across them you wont need to use that guarantee so much Clark

Response:

their service, I prefer their action over most rods I run across. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine! If you stop running across them you wont need to use that guarantee so much Clark

Amen, Clark.  If these guys werent’t so busy breaking and crushing their Scott rods, maybe James Barna wouldn’t need a $200 discount to buy a new rod… Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter. Tom G

Response:

Question:

Got it…all except never saying the ‘m’ word.  Sounds nasty, but my dictionary says it is pretty benign as far as the English form of the word goes.

Sorry, that was an inside joke.   Which leads me to another tip if you’re a usenet newbie:  http://groups.google.com is an archive of past posts from this & other newsgroups going back several years.   It’s not a bad idea to do a search there before posting a question here (or anywhere).   Chances are good it’s been asked before & answered 20 different ways; but you’re always free to be #21.   Just for fun, you could do a search on the M word (it was the subject of some spirited discussion a while back). HTH, Joe F.

Response:

Thanks rb, Stan, Tom; Got it…all except never saying the ‘m’ word.  Sounds nasty, but my dictionary says it is pretty benign as far as the English form of the word goes.

Benign?  BENIGN??!!  Why you littl…….sputter…….wheeze….if I eve…..aaaaarrrrgggghhhh! Wolfgang deep breaths….deep breaths….

Response:

Thanks Guys, Found http://www.faqs.org/usenet/ is a good source of Usenet News Netiquette and Sundry.  Thanks to your suggestions. Goofed again thinking I knew how to post a link to a picture of a trout I caught with whirling disease, works…but to wrong photo.  Not sure if I can tell if I got the new posts cancelled which I attempted immediately.  Got Lots of studying before I post to other than ‘misc.test’ and such. Thanks for your patience, Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  With the message you want to cancel selected, go to the tab marked "message" click on it, select "cancel message" and you are done. It won’t be cancelled on all servers if it has been a while since the post was made, but unless it is reallllly a bad post don’t bother sending a cancel.

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That’s OK Scott, I’m an old fart hereabouts so I’ll say it for you…meniscus, meniscus, meniscus, meniscus, Wolfie sucks meniscus thru a straw!  There, I feel better now. (seg) Frank Church in Elkhart, IN bassbugr AT yahoo dot com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -}<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<(((o Thanks rb, Stan, Tom; Got it…all except never saying the ‘m’ word.  Sounds nasty, but my dictionary says it is pretty benign as far as the English form of the word goes. Scott

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That’s OK Scott, I’m an old fart hereabouts so I’ll say it for you…meniscus, meniscus, meniscus, meniscus, Wolfie sucks meniscus thru a straw!  There, I feel better now. (seg)

He knows where you live.  He knows where you fish.  He will bide his time.  He is patient.  He is inexorable.  He is implacable. Not Pete

Response:

Thanks rb, Stan, Tom; Got it…all except never saying the ‘m’ word.  Sounds nasty, but my dictionary says it is pretty benign as far as the English form of the word goes. Benign?  BENIGN??!!  Why you littl…….sputter…….wheeze….if I eve…..aaaaarrrrgggghhhh! Wolfgang deep breaths….deep breaths….

– I’ve finally made my mind up about you Wolfgang.  You’re just like cancer.  Given enough time, you grow on people. Love your humor when it isn’t vicious. zoooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! deep breaths . . . *sigh* (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

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And, for GOD’s sake, watch out for Waldo if he’s having a bad hair day..

In the past 2+ years I’ve fished with Waldo probably 12-15 times and until he opened that shop in Morganton I wasn’t aware that he was capable of anything *but* bad hair days –Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks rb, Stan, Tom; Got it…all except never saying the ‘m’ word.  Sounds nasty, but my dictionary says it is pretty benign as far as the English form of the word goes. Benign?  BENIGN??!!  Why you littl…….sputter…….wheeze….if I eve…..aaaaarrrrgggghhhh! Wolfgang deep breaths….deep breaths…. — I’ve finally made my mind up about you Wolfgang.  You’re just like cancer.  Given enough time, you grow on people. Love your humor when it isn’t vicious. zoooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! deep breaths . . . *sigh*

Took you a while.  He’s always vicious.  If it didn’t seem like it, you missed something.  Trust me. Not Pete damn, where did you guys pick this one up?

Response:

Oops…is there a way for me (as the sender) to delete the post or have it deleted?

 With the message you want to cancel selected, go to the tab marked "message" click on it, select "cancel message" and you are done. It won’t be cancelled on all servers if it has been a while since the post was made, but unless it is reallllly a bad post don’t bother sending a cancel. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Surprised that a post containing ‘<a href…etc’ was kicked back by the news server filter but it allowed attachment through if they are unacceptable. Saw that ‘alt.fan.bettie-page’ (that probably shows my age) had attachments but have no idea what ‘alt.’ means or which other allow for images besides ‘.binary.’ Are there any tutorials or faq for usenet newbies?  My isp (amexol) provides nothing.  Search for info did not cover such questions, mostly hows, not whats. Help, Scott Have pic of the most beautiful moss-back brown trout I have ever seen, beyond my abilities of description…are image attachments acceptable? Newbie to newsgroups.  Figure if attachments not allowed, wont go through…as I discovered with post containing HTML link being rejected. NO!   Image attachments are *not* okay here.   You should post them to a binary ng such as alt.binary.pictures.fishing.   Then simply post here that the pix are there.   And unfortunately yes, they did come through (all 92KB of them.); but nobody with a shred of sanity would open an unsolicited attachment anyway. HTH, Joe F.

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Thanks rb, Stan, Tom; Got it…all except never saying the ‘m’ word.  Sounds nasty, but my dictionary says it is pretty benign as far as the English form of the word goes. Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t try to sell stuff or use this forum as your personal soapbox.   Do tell us about yourself, your fishing trips, your tips & secrets.   If you make a nasty comment meant in jest, it’s not a bad idea to make that clear with a smiley or grin for the benefit of the humor-impaired.   Don’t say anything  here you wouldn’t say to a man’s face.  Don’t forget that this is an international forum.    Don’t ever say meniscus. HTH, Joe F.

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Have pic of the most beautiful moss-back brown trout I have ever seen, beyond my abilities of description…are image attachments acceptable? Newbie to newsgroups.  Figure if attachments not allowed, wont go through…as I discovered with post containing HTML link being rejected.

NO!   Image attachments are *not* okay here.   You should post them to a binary ng such as alt.binary.pictures.fishing.   Then simply post here that the pix are there.   And unfortunately yes, they did come through (all 92KB of them.); but nobody with a shred of sanity would open an unsolicited attachment anyway. HTH, Joe F.

Response:

Oops…is there a way for me (as the sender) to delete the post or have it deleted? Surprised that a post containing ‘<a href…etc’ was kicked back by the news server filter but it allowed attachment through if they are unacceptable. Saw that ‘alt.fan.bettie-page’ (that probably shows my age) had attachments but have no idea what ‘alt.’ means or which other allow for images besides ‘.binary.’ Are there any tutorials or faq for usenet newbies?  My isp (amexol) provides nothing.  Search for info did not cover such questions, mostly hows, not whats. Help, Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have pic of the most beautiful moss-back brown trout I have ever seen, beyond my abilities of description…are image attachments acceptable? Newbie to newsgroups.  Figure if attachments not allowed, wont go through…as I discovered with post containing HTML link being rejected. NO!   Image attachments are *not* okay here.   You should post them to a binary ng such as alt.binary.pictures.fishing.   Then simply post here that the pix are there.   And unfortunately yes, they did come through (all 92KB of them.); but nobody with a shred of sanity would open an unsolicited attachment anyway. HTH, Joe F.

Response:

Oops…is there a way for me (as the sender) to delete the post or have it deleted?

Some newsreaders (e.g. Outlook Express) allow a "Cancel Message" but it doesn’t always work, & I wouldn’t bother. Are there any tutorials or faq for usenet newbies?  My isp (amexol) provides nothing.  Search for info did not cover such questions, mostly hows, not whats.

Probably, but darned if I know where.   Undoubtedly someone here does & will jump in.   In general, though most of what you need to know will only come through experience.   Most groups have different "personalities" as far as the level of friendliness, abuse, hostility, etc. that goes beyond the how, what, & why.   With any group, it’s usually a good idea to just read all the posts for a while to get a feel for it before jumping in.   This group, for example, despite being primarily fly-fishing related, spends a great deal of time discussing other things.   In the right context, that is acceptable here; but some groups react badly to any off-topic discussions. Also in general, be respectful of basic societal norms and courtesies. Don’t be an asshole.   Pay attention if somebody tells you you are.   We cannot and do not keep total assholes from barging in here and being a nuisance, but we can at least have a great deal of entertainment at their expense (lemons from lemonade and all that).   You do not want to be on the receiving end of what some folks can dish out. Don’t try to sell stuff or use this forum as your personal soapbox.   Do tell us about yourself, your fishing trips, your tips & secrets.   If you make a nasty comment meant in jest, it’s not a bad idea to make that clear with a smiley or grin for the benefit of the humor-impaired.   Don’t say anything  here you wouldn’t say to a man’s face.  Don’t forget that this is an international forum.    Don’t ever say meniscus. Don’t think you’re smarter than us; you’re not.   The collective intelligence among the cast of characters here is amazing on a variety of topics.   If you ask for help, somebody will definitely know the answer if it’s fishing-related; and you’ve got a good chance even if it isn’t.   And be specific. We’re all human being behind these electronic facades, & it’s better when we act accordingly.   Read, pay attention, listen, join in.   It’s simple. HTH, Joe F.

Response:

And, for GOD’s sake, watch out for Waldo if he’s having a bad hair day.. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oops…is there a way for me (as the sender) to delete the post or have it deleted? Some newsreaders (e.g. Outlook Express) allow a "Cancel Message" but it doesn’t always work, & I wouldn’t bother. Are there any tutorials or faq for usenet newbies?  My isp (amexol) provides nothing.  Search for info did not cover such questions, mostly hows, not whats. Probably, but darned if I know where.   Undoubtedly someone here does & will jump in.   In general, though most of what you need to know will only come through experience.   Most groups have different "personalities" as far as the level of friendliness, abuse, hostility, etc. that goes beyond the how, what, & why.   With any group, it’s usually a good idea to just read all the posts for a while to get a feel for it before jumping in.   This group, for example, despite being primarily fly-fishing related, spends a great deal of time discussing other things.   In the right context, that is acceptable here; but some groups react badly to any off-topic discussions. Also in general, be respectful of basic societal norms and courtesies. Don’t be an asshole.   Pay attention if somebody tells you you are.   We cannot and do not keep total assholes from barging in here and being a nuisance, but we can at least have a great deal of entertainment at their expense (lemons from lemonade and all that).   You do not want to be on the receiving end of what some folks can dish out. Don’t try to sell stuff or use this forum as your personal soapbox.   Do tell us about yourself, your fishing trips, your tips & secrets.   If you make a nasty comment meant in jest, it’s not a bad idea to make that clear with a smiley or grin for the benefit of the humor-impaired.   Don’t say anything  here you wouldn’t say to a man’s face.  Don’t forget that this is an international forum.    Don’t ever say meniscus. Don’t think you’re smarter than us; you’re not.   The collective intelligence among the cast of characters here is amazing on a variety of topics.   If you ask for help, somebody will definitely know the answer if it’s fishing-related; and you’ve got a good chance even if it isn’t.   And be specific. We’re all human being behind these electronic facades, & it’s better when we act accordingly.   Read, pay attention, listen, join in.   It’s simple. HTH, Joe F.

Response:

Are there any tutorials or faq for usenet newbies?  My isp (amexol) provides nothing.  Search for info did not cover such questions, mostly hows, not whats.

Go to www.google.com and enter the search phrase ‘usenet FAQ’. Generally binaries are acceptable in alt.binary.*** groups and possible a few others.  There’s lots of reasons for keeping attachments out of the text newsgroup hierarchies, which the FAQs will explain.  Joes’s suggestion to post of alt.binaries.pictures.fishing is appropriate as is sending the URL of a web page where the picture can be retrieved.  Note that some of the ROFF readers cannot get a.b.p.f., and a web reference reaches more people. Nice fish by the way. –Stan

Response:

Question:

So Charlie, I’d be making that H&H, you need the length for mending and for keeping the fly out of the crap behind you, on the backcast.

Thanks, I’ll get the parts ordered. — Charlie…

Response:

Charlie Choc: I’d need a 6wt (looking for an excuse to build a rod, actually<g). —

Build.  Build.  Build.  Tell the OWMBO that I said so. Dave Dave LaCourse

Response:

Uh, I hit send before I was finished.  More to follow. All of the fish I caught were on a 9 foot four weight with WF4F line.  A  6 weight would be ideal for lobbing streamers (help me here, Peter C.), but a 5 should work just as well.  And bring a four for nymphing and dry fly work.  Salmon Fly was using his own boo rod — prettiest damn thing you ever saw, and he was giving it a work-out.  I believe it was a 4 weight Dave LaCourse

Dave n’ Charlie Just fired up the laptop in North Bay before I start with their NT conversion (3 people branch – won’t take long) and I caught your plea for help.  <g I’m taking a 9 1/2′ 6 wt. for slinging big streamers into second current, off that big rock at the end of the island.  I’ll also be bringing a short 6 wt. and a 9′ 4 wt. and perhaps one other 4 wt. So Charlie, I’d be making that H&H, you need the length for mending and for keeping the fly out of the crap behind you, on the backcast. Peter

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[snip report] Nice report Dave. Makes me think I need to start building a rod to use there in September. I’m thinking about a 9 1/2′ 6wt from an H&H blank. Think that’ll be useful for streamer fishing? (I’ll be bringing along 3, 4 and 5wt rods as well). Will that be enough firepower or will I need something heavier? — Charlie…

Response:

Nice report Dave. Makes me think I need to start building a rod to use there in September. I’m thinking about a 9 1/2′ 6wt from an H&H blank. Think that’ll be useful for streamer fishing? (I’ll be bringing along 3, 4 and 5wt rods as well). Will that be enough firepower or will I need something heavier? — Charlie…

Uh, I hit send before I was finished.  More to follow. All of the fish I caught were on a 9 foot four weight with WF4F line.  A  6 weight would be ideal for lobbing streamers (help me here, Peter C.), but a 5 should work just as well.  And bring a four for nymphing and dry fly work.  Salmon Fly was using his own boo rod — prettiest damn thing you ever saw, and he was giving it a work-out.  I believe it was a 4 weight Dave LaCourse

Response:

All of the fish I caught were on a 9 foot four weight with WF4F line.  A  6 weight would be ideal for lobbing streamers (help me here, Peter C.), but a 5 should work just as well.  And bring a four for nymphing and dry fly work.  

OK, like I said I’ll have 3, 4 and 5wt rods along, just wondered if I’d need a 6wt (looking for an excuse to build a rod, actually<g). — Charlie…

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Jo, Henry and I arrived at Lakewood just in time for lunch on Monday.  I was a bit alarmed to hear that there were 15 people at the "island", but even more alarmed when told there were 35 there the day before!!!!!  I opted for the dam. Big mistake.  The dam should be easy to fish at 1300 cfs, but the new dam keeper just can’t get it right.  I had the place all to myself, but fishing was very difficult.  No rises.  Water temp at 51.  No hatches.  So, nymphs (or if Peter Charles streamers) were the order of the day.  I went through every nymph pattern I had and never got a strike.  Nothing!  I tied on a Prince as a dropper from a GRW and finally started to catch fish.  No brookies — only salmon 15 – 17 inches — and I ended the day with 3 fish. Tuesday found me at the "island" bright and early.  Two locals in a canoe lobbing big streamers in the 1st and 2nd currents.  I walked up to the wing dam pool and looked around for a few minutes.  No surface activity, but there were a few Henricksons coming off, but no fish rising to them.  I prefer fishing dries on this river, so I tied on a #16 Adams parachute.  Second cast into the riffles coming out of the wing dam and WHAM, a big brookie hit it.  I managed to land the 18 inch fish without a net, something I am not very good at. Beautiful color and it fought like hell.   I figured this was my day.  Wrong!  I fished for 4 more hours and never caught a thing.  But I was not alone.  I returned after lunch and the six or so people that were there had left, probably in disgust. I continued fishing the wing dam pool and managed another brookie about 15 inches, and a couple of salmon about 12 inches, all on prince nymphs. Wednesday, back to the "island" bright and early.  No one there.  I fished the wing dam pool again with limited results.  One of the guests at Lakewood walked his canoe up the rapids of the 2nd current and anchored in the fast water at the head of the pool.  In less that 10 minutes, he was into a helluva big fish.  When it broke off, he turned to me and put his hands about two feet apart.  "Honest", he said.  <g  Ten minutes later he was into another big one and managed to net all 23 inche of it.  It was the biggest brookie I had seen come out of those waters – not so much in length, but in girth too — it measured 16 inches in front of the dorsal.  I have forgotten the formula, but looking at that fish it must have weighed in at 6 pounds.  The irony of it all — that was his first and *only* fish of the day.    I landed (with help from my net!) a 20 inch brookie taken on a BWO emerger. The big brookies were not at the wingdam riffles like they normally are, but farther out in the pool.  They were porpoising, eating at what seemed a leisurely pace.  Every once in awhile, one would come straight up like he was trying to stand on his tail.  But there was very little splashing or noise — you wouldn’t know they were feeding unless you saw them.  And no one saw them except me.  Well, at least for awhile, anyway.  I threw every imaginable caddis emerger I could find in my fly box and they ignored everying.  I finally saw a flying insect and thought it to bea BWO.  Hmmmm. Not caddis.  Mayflies.  I tied on a BWO emerger that I bought several years ago on the advice of some "knowing" friend.  I bought a dozen and never used them — I *think* they are called RS2 or something like that.  Not being much of a mayfly fisher, I had completely forgotten them until now.  Well, I cast the damn thing out there and couldn’t see it in the moving water.  There was a rise where my fly *should* have been, but when  I set the hook, I had nothing.  So, I tied on a #14 Goddard Caddis and used the emerger as a dropper.  Second cast and the Goddard disappeared three seconds after it hit the water.  I set the hook Dave LaCourse

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Question:

X-no-archive: yes Animal rights Internet lists are abuzz over the summer movie Instinct, which stars Anthony Hopkins as a primatologist.  Activists claim the film has a strong animal rights message. Don’t give this movie your money.

I saw the movie about ten days ago.  The animal rights message, as explicitly stated, is reasonable enough, i.e. the wanton slaughter of gorillas is a bad thing.  The subliminal messages which may come through have been the topic of a great deal of discussion here in the past month or so, but I don’t think the film has much to add, or that it will make a great impression on the general public.  There is, however, an even better reason to avoid this one; it’s a bad movie.  The cast looked pretty bored throughout and left me feeling much the same.  Maybe I’m just tired of people loping around in bad gorilla costumes.

Response:

What is now left my friends? I ask  you humbly what may we discuss? without wishing to cause tension on the surface, perhaps the meniscus? If treated properly perhaps this odd phenomenon will disappear or sink, for those of you now quite alarmed, dont worry friends , it will float again with gink. The souls of fishes long departed may return at last to haunt us anglers all, the wanton bludgeoning we once practiced in our youth begin with age to pall, what can one do, how may one then, avoid such horrible and all consuming fate? one might perhaps then praise the fish in prayer, before placing it well spiced and heated on ones plate. Oh lord I fear that what I did perhaps was not quite right, and maybe not your wish but lord forgive me please, judge not harshly, remembering I used a  fly to catch this glorious fish. There are some who would have us think that fishing is an evil thing, in actual fact a heinous crime Or did you lord, when we were placed here,  think of us, and give us all these lumps of tasty protein packed in slime ? I may be wrong of course oh lord, and even far too proud in my assumptions of your wishes, in which case then I will surely land in hell, and burn forever as a punishment for bludgeoning all those fishes. Whatever lord, although it may be wrong, and not in accord with your decrees, this fascinating fishing with an artificial fly. If you dont mind, and nothing else occurs to change my mind, I

Question:

Does anyone have contact information for the NY State Guides Association? I would like to find out what the requirements are for certification.

Response:

Does anyone have contact information for the NY State Guides Association? I would like to find out what the requirements are for certification.

Michael, The phone number for NYSOGA is 518 798 1253.  Good luck. James Ehlers NYSOGA Member Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service 1997 Guide of the Year Vermont Fly Fishing, Hunting, River and Woodland Outings http://pobox.com/~uncle

Response:

Mike – Contact the DEC in Raybrooke, NY (area code 518) and they can refer you to the proper office which will mail out an aplication form as well as requirements. What is required for the Backpacking/Hiking & Camping Licence: (If I remember correctly) -Passing a Physical Exam from your Doctor, -Basic First Aid AND Water Safety Course OR  Advanced First Aid (Includes Water Safety course) -Taking a 2 or 3 hour test at your Regional DEC Office (Core plus area of  specialty  -Climbing/Hiking & Backpacking/Canoeing/Camping…) -Fee of around $50-$75 Good Luck Rick Does anyone have contact information for the NY State Guides Association? I would like to find out what the requirements are for certification.

– ***NOTICE*** Do not use autosend with the spam defeater  Rick Story

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Question:

                Hi!         I am wondering if anyone has ever used the Gorilla and Sons                   Vise you see in all the fly fishing and fly tying                   magazines. I am asking if anyone has ever used this v                vise and if it has good hook holding power and how it d               does  VS. the Thompson "A" vise.  Wich one                     would you reccomend is a better beginner  vise                         THANKS!                                 Dolph                      

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The Gorilla vise is junk- mine wouldn’t even assemble. Evan

Response:

Question:

Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? Thanks! Patrick

Response:

Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution?

Nassau, for the three reasons mentioned. — DAVe & Skoshi, ‘69 Stamas 26′ http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/d/r/drsi/

Response:

Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution?

How ’bout that endless expanse of white sand gliding by just inches below your keel…  Y’know, The Bottom.  Definitely, avoid the bottom.

Response:

I will NEVER go back to Nassau! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? How ’bout that endless expanse of white sand gliding by just inches below your keel…  Y’know, The Bottom.  Definitely, avoid the bottom.

Response:

Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? Thanks! Patrick

Nassau for sure!

Response:

The northernmost Abacos seemed a tad dreary… of course it’s all relative; fishermen find Walker’s Cay a piscatorial paradise- scuba & beachcombing too. Norman’s Cay was a smuggling hotspot in the ’80s, but appears to be under control… now pilots fly there for fishing, scuba & gourmet food, not ‘business’.  Bimini & points south ditto. When cruising anywhere truly remote, tho, a bit of disgression is a good idea. Trimtab Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? Thanks! Patrick

Before you buy.

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All the places I go

Response:

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel. Good Cruising, 73 — Sean Holland NP2AU S/V Spindrift

You know in all the posts on this subject, nobody has thought to ask our intrepid boater just how fast his houseboat can go.  If he can wring 20kts out of it wihtout straining, it’s only a 2.5 or 3 hour crossing … more than enough time if he waits for the weather.  He can strap a liferaaft to the stern, tank up with gas, turn on his GPS, get out his charts and be in the Bahamas in time for lunch if he starts out at 0830!  The posters talking about leaving at night in order to get to port at the destination in the daylight are talking about doing 5 or 6 kts, not 15 or 20. If he really wants to know, he should take the boat offshore a ways to see how it reacts in ocean swells in the kind of weather he wants to cross in.  If he has trouble, he can head back; if he isn’t intent on crossing, he’ll head back anyway.  You’ll never know until you try it. Colin S.

Response:

There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there.

Sure there are; and they may have island hopped in good weather to get there.  Or they may have come as deck cargo on a freighter. I’m not trying to rain on your parade; but safety comes first, for both you and your crew. You worked hard all your life to enjoy your retirement.  Don’t become a U.S. Coast Guard statistic. Jim Md.

Response:

Previously in response to a request for info on taking a house boat to the Bahamas someone said: You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.   If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there.

This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel. Good Cruising, 73 — Sean Holland NP2AU S/V Spindrift

Response:

This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel.

I agree that is is silly, if not rude, to tell a prospective motor boater or sailer to "buy an airplane ticket," but I still think that taking a houseboat across the Gulf Stream is, well, not smart.  To cross the stream under the best conditions, one must leave Florida in the evening in order to cross the bar at Bimini or go into the canal at Grand Bahama in daylight (and don’t Bahamas’ customs rules require daylight entry?)  Not all water-borne hazard will be spotted at night, and for an inexperienced captain, large cargo ships can be a real hazard; a flat bottom houseboat is not the vessel for maneouvering in shipping lanes. Also, the weather can never be predicted with the kind of reliability that would allow one to cross the Gulf Stream in a houseboat, particularly in winter, the main crusing time; and again, the deep water passages between the westerly cays and Nassau require better.   That "lake type sailboats" often venture to the Bahamas succesfully is merely an argument by ancedote, and so a dangerous one.  There are many, many, many cruisers anchored (right now!) in Elizabeth Harbor, off Georgetown, who got there on sheer luck alone.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel. I agree that is is silly, if not rude, to tell a prospective motor boater or sailer to "buy an airplane ticket," but I still think that taking a houseboat across the Gulf Stream is, well, not smart.  To cross the stream under the best conditions, one must leave Florida in the evening in order to cross the bar at Bimini or go into the canal at Grand Bahama in daylight (and don’t Bahamas’ customs rules require daylight entry?)  Not all water-borne hazard will be spotted at night, and for an inexperienced captain, large cargo ships can be a real hazard; a flat bottom houseboat is not the vessel for maneouvering in shipping lanes. Also, the weather can never be predicted with the kind of reliability that would allow one to cross the Gulf Stream in a houseboat, particularly in winter, the main crusing time; and again, the deep water passages between the westerly cays and Nassau require better. That "lake type sailboats" often venture to the Bahamas succesfully is merely an argument by ancedote, and so a dangerous one.  There are many, many, many cruisers anchored (right now!) in Elizabeth Harbor, off Georgetown, who got there on sheer luck alone.

Another opinion:  A few years ago those of us who made 5 knots or less felt we should cross at night, so that if we missed the Bahamas altogether we would have all day to find the island we were looking for.  With GPS that is no longer necessary.  Easiest crossing is 50 NM from Lake Worth to West End  on Grand Bahama Island.  Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions.  There will be other boats waiting out weather.  Often a group of boats cross together.  It is a comfort to cross with other boats.  The entrance to the marina at West End is tricky.  I have gone in there at least ten times, and I still worry about it. From West End on around as far as Little Harbor there are short hops and numerous anchorages.  I don’t recommend the stretch from Little Harbor to Eleuthera in a houseboat. I haven’t hear of a restriction on entering the Bahamas at night.  Go in and either anchor or dock, raise the yellow "Q" flag and don’t get off the boat until Customs arrives.

Response:

Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions. If the wind is out of the west, ahead of a cold front, wouldn’t you expect it to clock through NW then North as the front passes?  Not a good time to be in the stream. John L. Miller

Yes, sometimes the window is only about 4 hours from the time the wind picks up from the west (almost *always* in advance of a cold front) to the time it swings around to a 30 knot+ northerly gale.  Against the fast north- flowing Gulf Stream, the sea conditions become unbelievably bad with any breeze from the north. I’d ship the houseboat if I were you.  The Bahama banks would be a wonderful place for a boat like that, but getting it there across the Gulf Stream is quite a big risk. Dan

Response:

 This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.

I said never and I meant never.  Houseboats are not designed for offshore work under any circumstances.  Talking about ideal wind and sea conditions is nonsense.  We are not explorers, we are pleasure boaters;   and there is no reason to place any person aboard in danger with a vessel which can only operate in ideal wind and sea conditions. The insurance companies share this view, I believe. Ask what the premium increase will be for a houseboat taken offshore.   Jim Md.

Response:

Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions.

If the wind is out of the west, ahead of a cold front, wouldn’t you expect it to clock through NW then North as the front passes?  Not a good time to be in the stream. John L. Miller

Response:

Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions. If the wind is out of the west, ahead of a cold front, wouldn’t you expect it to clock through NW then North as the front passes?  Not a good time to be in the stream. John L. Miller

Absolutely true! An Irwin 45 named "Sandy Lanes" that took off ahead of me in the westerlies before a strong cold front, wound up being driven ashore on the west side of Gun Cay! I waited until after the front passed when light southerlies began to blow and had no problem. — J.A. Rogers Sailaway Cruising Club http://www.cqws.com/zone1/sailaway/

Response:

One of the respondents to Horace’ query stated: : You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be : taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but : fortunately, I’m not. : : If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. Depends on the houseboat, doesn’t it?  For shoal water cruising, a smaller houseboat, with less draft, would be far more appropriate than many of the offshore keelboats currently pussyfooting around the banks. Even a craft as large as Horace’s houseboat would be vastly preferable to a similar sized keelboat, if one wanted to follow the barrier reef down Andros Is. On the other hand, a craft as well-powered as Horace’s houseboat shouldn’t have problems finding an appropriate window of time, in which to cross the Straits of Florida safely. He’ll probably have greater problems finding a mooring at port of entry (grin). If I did it, I’d want a smaller boat with less than 2′ of draft, even if it were substantially slower.  But hell, if you’ve got the boat, and the desire (and the money)… Go for it, Horace! It should be a real adventure! Good Cruising, —      Bob Martin

Response:

The boat is 60×14 with 22" of freeboard and a 42" draft. She has twin 228HP MercCruser outdrives and a fuel capacity of 175 Gals. Cruise speed at 1500RPM is about 8 knots with 21 knots at full speed. I plan to install Radar and GPS before the trip. Am I crazy or do you think this is possible ? What would you recommend ?

You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. YOu should keep that nice houseboat in sheltered waters.  And there are plenty of sheltered waters that are perfect for you.  How about the ICW from New England to Fla?  How about the Erie Canal, the nicest fresh water cruise on the planet?  How about the Mighty Mississipp? Good Luck. Jim Md.

Response:

You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket.

There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there. — J.A. Rogers Sailaway Cruising Club http://www.cqws.com/zone1/sailaway/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ed: I’m in the process of rebuilding, from the hull up, a 60ft houseboat with the ultimate purpose of curising to the Bahamas from the closest point in Florida when I retire in six years. I’ve talked to a couple of people who say this is possible, if I pick the right time of year and watch the weather carefully. The boat is 60×14 with 22" of freeboard and a 42" draft. She has twin 228HP MercCruser outdrives and a fuel capacity of 175 Gals. Cruise speed at 1500RPM is about 8 knots with 21 knots at full speed. I plan to install Radar and GPS before the trip. Am I crazy or do you think this is possible ? What would you recommend ?

There was a rig which moored in Daytona Beach for a while.  On a small river barge type hull was a white frame building with a sign "Marine Research Laboratory" (It allowed anchoring in places where people might otherwise object.)  Around the perimeter of the barge were trailer hitch balls.  The owner supposedly took it to the Bahamas using a "tug" consisting of an open runabout with a large outboard.  He had a short tower frame on the tug with another trailer hitch ball and an A-frame with three female hitchs on the corners.  By repositioning the frame he could pull, push, or run along side.  He did spend some time waiting for just the right weather conditions. I think your houseboat is several cuts above this in surviveability, but yes, the word crazy does come to mind.  Crazy is fine as long as you don’t expect someone else to bail you out. Roger —

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You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there.

I second that!  A houseboat on the Gulf Stream is courting suicide, and there ARE some deep water passages to be made within the archipelago. Don’t do it, especially as a novice. Go, but with a good keel and skeg beneath you.

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You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there. — J.A. Rogers Sailaway Cruising Club http://www.cqws.com/zone1/sailaway/

There might be places that you could go through once you are there.  I think a lot of large freight (cars etc) go by local freighters.  That approach should get your boat there. I crossed the Gulf stream with a perfect forcast.  By the time I was 2 hours out, I was seeing the worst continuous conditions that I had ever seen in 30 years of sailing. We are all masters of our vessels despite what anyone says.  I would give this all little thought though. Hans Paabor Rocinante I Scarborough, Ontario With great power comes great responsiblity (Spiderman)

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I mentally swapped the critical specs of your houseboat and was thinking it draws 22” and has 42” of freeboard when I wrote advising you to Go For It! Considering you have almost no spare freeboard and are a bit deeper than I believed, I should qualify my answer: You probably should not go in winter, when the weather is quite changeable (and the forecasts are therefore less reliable). Keeping in mind that safe anchorages may sometimes be 30-40 miles (i.e.four-six hours) apart, if the wind springs up suddenly the resulting sea might be too much for your boat. The Banks can develop a very steep chop. I don’t know how well houseboats drive into head seas but I suspect, not too well. You should find out first-hand before going. Dead calm conditions are, I’m told,  common in late spring and summer (save for the odd hurricane, but that’s another story).  At any rate, take a liferaft or Whaler type dinghy and a handheld VHF. And, of course, insure the vessel. Byron

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If anyone is contemplating cruising in Bahamas, I may be able to help. While I have not been to each cay, I have cruised throughout the island nation, from Walker’s Cay on the north to Long Island in the southern region. This year I am going south thru southernmost Bahamas to Turks & Caicos, despite news of major drug running and politicians’ alleged

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Ed: I’m in the process of rebuilding, from the hull up, a 60ft houseboat with the ultimate purpose of curising to the Bahamas from the closest point in Florida when I retire in six years. I’ve talked to a couple of people who say this is possible, if I pick the right time of year and watch the weather carefully. The boat is 60×14 with 22" of freeboard and a 42" draft. She has twin 228HP MercCruser outdrives and a fuel capacity of 175 Gals. Cruise speed at 1500RPM is about 8 knots with 21 knots at full speed. I plan to install Radar and GPS before the trip. Am I crazy or do you think this is possible ? What would you recommend ? Thanks Ron Brown

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If anyone is contemplating cruising in Bahamas, I may be able to help. region. This year I am going south thru southernmost Bahamas to Turks & Caicos, despite news of major drug running and politicians’ alleged

In 16 years cruising in the Bahamas, drug running and politicians have been the least of my worries or problems.  They are simply not an issue for the average cruiser, and there are fewer drugs to encounter in the islands than on your average midtown street corner back in the states. Just returned from a fast passage from Ft. Lauderdale to Provo, (T&C), and the only problems encountered were related to the vessel, rather than politics or recreational pharmacy products. Good Sailing, 73,  Sean — Sean Holland NP2AU S/V Spindrift

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Go for it! Weather is key but the crossing from Miami to Gun Cay or Bimini should only take you a few hours (it’s 50nm or thereabouts). You will want to cross during a period of winds <12kts out of a southerly quadrant. You should experience chop no more than a foot or two over an easy swell. We spent a winter cruising the Bahamas in a 36′ sailboat. So long as you pick your weather carefully and hole up in one of the many protected anchorages during frontal passages, you should have no problem. Additionally, your shoal draft will open up many anchorages denied sailboats. So you should be able to avoid any unpleasantness. I would urge you to buy a short-wave receiver like the Grundig Yacht Boy 400 to get USCG weathercasts on NMN and to tune into the Bahamas marine net, as well as the big picture weather outlook from "Herb" on 12.359 at 2000 UCT. You may have to be very patient to get favorable conditions for operating in the NW Providence Channel; if it’s wintertime, you probably don’t want to operate in the northern half of the Bahamas (Abacos) as they get some very nasty weather indeed. Good luck! Byron Westerly ketch "Vela"

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Question:

Went to the Orvis School in Vermont. Got my money’s worth but in retrospect not a neccesity to learn. Specifically helpful with casting technique. Get a good book on the basics of fly fishing before you go to any class anywhere. Then decide if you really want to go. Great sport.

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writes: As a newcomer to fly fishing, I would like to start the right way. I am considering travelling to Colorado to attend the Orvis fly fishing school, and then spend a few days fishing in the area. I would like to hear from people that have taken the class about their experience, both good and bad.  Is it worth all the expense? Thanks.  Avi

I just completed the Orvis Fly Fishing school at their corporate headquarters in Vermont.  Most of the time is spent on the mechanics of casting (including many different types.  Only about 1/2 day si spent on the river, but you can go on the river after the class. I thought it was great.  I feel like I learned so much on reading water, tying the knots, casting and the equipment, and even bugs. I would recommend it! Mac

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As a newcomer to fly fishing, I would like to start the right way. I am considering travelling to Colorado to attend the Orvis fly fishing school, and then spend a few days fishing in the area. I would like to hear from people that have taken the class about their experience, both good and bad.  Is it worth all the expense? Thanks.  Avi

Of course Avi, I think you should travel a little farther out west and attend one of my schools at the Arcularius Ranch near Mammoth Lakes in the Eastern Sierra, or at the Clearwater House on Hat Creek in Northern California.  The classes are small & I understand the instructors are excellent ;^  (I’m one of the instructors). E-mail me if you’re interested.                                              Thanks,                                                   Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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As a newcomer to fly fishing, I would like to start the right way. I am considering travelling to Colorado to attend the Orvis fly fishing school, and then spend a few days fishing in the area. I would like to hear from people that have taken the class about their experience, both good and bad.  Is it worth all the expense? Thanks.  Avi Team OS/2                  847.808.3913

How can I answer your question delicately…  NO- it might be alot of fun but there is another way to learn flyfishing. Get to know some of the local oldtimers in the streams where you live.  This is not necessarily easy to do but there are some great benefits- they know the waters local to you, know the hatches and patterns and best of all they can become friends to go fish with. One suggestion- a flyfisherman with all the gear (ie "decked out by cabela’s") doesn’t always know whats going on. Best wishes- you’ve selected a wonderful new hobby. Lee Clore "flyfishing is life"

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I have been to the school in evergreen, CO. You are right it is costly. I HAVE BEEN FLYFISHING FOR ABOUT THREE YEARS AND GOT SOMETHING OUT OF THE PROGRAM. BUT, THIS PROGRAM I SUGGEST FOR THE NEW COMER ONLY.IT IS BASIC. HOWEVER, THE STAFF IS GREAT.  THEY TAKE YOU TO A STOCKED POND THAT IS FILLED WITH FISH IN A WELL DEVELOPED AREA(YOU CAN WATCH TV THROUGH THE WINDOW OF THE HOUSES THAT ARE ALL AROUND}. fOR MY MONEY GET AN ORVIS GUIDE AND TELL THEM YOU WANT A HALF DAY OF LAND INSTRUCTION. tHEM GO TO THE CHESMEN CAYON TO FISH. NOT THE SOUTH PLATEE. READ/READ/READ THEN YOU WILOL GET MORE FROM THE INSTRUCTION

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You had better believe it.  I went to VT for mine…

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It depends on where you live.  Orvis has schools all over the country; go to the one nearest you.  I got started several years ago by going to the Orvis school near NYC in the Catskills.  They teach you the basics, with emphasis on casting on a trout pond.  I then hired one of the instructors (who, it turned out, went to high school with my wife) to take me onto the Beaverkill.  As a newbie, you don’t need the challenge of Rocky Mountain fishing.  Start in a river where you’ll likely catch fish, then move up to the harder (and more expensive) stuff.

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As a newcomer to fly fishing, I would like to start the right way. I am considering travelling to Colorado to attend the Orvis fly fishing school, and then spend a few days fishing in the area. I would like to hear from people that have taken the class about their experience, both good and bad.  Is it worth all the expense? Thanks.  Avi Team OS/2                  847.808.3913

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Question:

        Writing again about a flyfishing newsgroup…         My news server is running very slow so all the articles I see are 6 days old.  I got on another server recently and read more recent articles, so I’m posting again.  Excuse me if I’m writing something outdated now-         From what I see, there are people who don’t want to create a flyfishing newsgroup, and I can respect that.  Yes, someone pointed out that instead of having 50 email messages sent in one day you can get them all at once, which is nice.  I think I still like the idea of creating a newsgroup on the subject.  I don’t think it will detract from Rec.outdoors.fishing, and the bass fishermen will probably be happy to be rid of some of the flyfishing articles here.         From what I remember, technically we need to have some sort of organized discussion- just like we’re doing now.  Then, we have to have a vote.  I think there has to be a minimum number of votes, and the "ayes" have to outnumber the "nays" by a good amount (100 votes?).         I’m kind of busy for another week or so, and like I’ve said- I’m no expert here.  Is there some flyfishing sys admin who could help us set it up?  Or email me and I’ll do it myself?  If you don’t think we should have a new newsgroup, that’s fine.  But, you certainly can’t be against having a discussion and vote, right?         Thanks- -Jeff

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Writing again about a flyfishing newsgroup…    My news server is running very slow so all the articles I see are 6 days old.  I got on another server recently and read more recent articles, so I’m posting again.  Excuse me if I’m writing something outdated now-    From what I see, there are people who don’t want to create a flyfishing newsgroup, and I can respect that.  Yes, someone pointed out that instead of having 50 email messages sent in one day you can get them all at once, which is nice.  I think I still like the idea of creating a newsgroup on the subject.  I don’t think it will detract from Rec.outdoors.fishing, and the bass fishermen will probably be happy to be rid of some of the flyfishing articles here.    From what I remember, technically we need to have some sort of organized discussion- just like we’re doing now.  Then, we have to have a vote.  I think there has to be a minimum number of votes, and the "ayes" have to outnumber the "nays" by a good amount (100 votes?).

  Technically, any discussion on here is pretty much a waste of time if   the true intent is to alter/create newsgroups and/or their structure.   Your efforts would be better spent in the news.- forums, because   that is where these things are decided.   Personally, I just don’t see the traffic in either alt.fishing or   rec.outdoors.fishing that would indicate the need for further   subdivision.  The fact that the flyfish listserv does carry a lot of   traffic is totally irrelevant to any discussion of usenet newsgroups –   they just aren’t related.  And who says bass fisherman don’t also   flyfish? — Northern Trust Co.  Chicago, IL |  DoD #97779  88 FLHTC

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Certainly the list-server will NOT be shut down for a varity of reasons, not to mention that some folks do not have access to a news server – only e-mail. I do think we need to pursue the creation of rec.fishing.flyfishing or whatever. Thomas Gilg First, let me clarify that I’m NOT proposing we terminate the flyfishing listserv. I do remain concerned however at the listserv’s explosive growth, and the ability of the list maintainer and we readers to keep up with it.           Flyfish Listserv Post Statistics for 11/92 thru 2/94       1000        950                                          *        900        850    p   800    o   750                                             + (half month)    s   700    t   650                              *    s   600                                       *        550                  *              *  *        500        450        400               *     *  *  *        350        300            *        250        200         *        150      *        100   *        50 *           11 12 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 11 12 1  2           1992                 1993                 1994                            month and year I loved the group *the way it was*, but times are changing, and none of us can change that fact.   Question is, what should we do?    I see several opportunities:    o Get more leverage from NEWS    o Find tools which help e-mail only users deal with the traffic.    o Setup services that give users visibility into the forums they      currently don’t have access to.    o Figure out how WWW/Mosaic might help us. Other options (I’m not endorsing) include:    o Restricted list servers    o Subgrouped flyfish listserv’s What it all comes down to: how do we manage the unstoppable growth, changes and limits we’re seeing in the electronic flyfishing forums? Thomas Gilg

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Question:

5/29: River high, but not unworkably high.  Not bad shape except for the current.  Went plunking in one of my favorite holes ( north of the Santiam R. confluence) for chinook.  20+ lb fish on by 11:30a, and lost in a keystone cops netting scenario (you can’t net your own fish, so ya gotta use the guy who’s available).  Good news is that my fish was the first one hooked in that hole in 4 days.  10 oz anchor weight, 2 rigs: #2 watermelon wing-bobber (sparkly wings) on bottom, #2 red tiger wing bobber on top (shorter leader, sparkly wings).  Natural sand shrimp on both.  Fish took the watermelon.  Had another hit later, but gear was fouled and he just ate the shrimp.  Watermelon again.  People using single rigs had no luck.  One person later landed a 10 lb’r: bright hen Chinook. 5/30 – 6/3: Raining, even higher water.  Inland rivers including the Willamette running high and out of shape.  Coastal rivers dropping. 6/4: No rain.  Inland rivers still very high.  Coastal rivers now too low.  Heard that fishing has been reasonably good in holes known for producing in high water…I only know of one. We’ll be fishing again this weekend.  Plunking for Chinook is what we plan.  Normally I drift, but last weekend was a father-in-law trip and this weekend is a (novice) brother trip… Later, Brian D. — Computer/Vision Engineer, Hewlett Packard (Corvallis, Oregon)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 5/29: River high, but not unworkably high.  Not bad shape except *Stuff deleted* days.  10 oz anchor weight, 2 rigs: #2 watermelon wing-bobber (sparkly wings) on bottom, #2 red tiger wing bobber on top (shorter leader, sparkly wings).  Natural sand shrimp on both.  Fish took the watermelon.  Had another hit later, but gear was fouled and he just ate the shrimp.  Watermelon again.  People using single rigs had no luck.  One person later landed a 10 lb’r: bright hen Chinook. 5/30 – 6/3: Raining, even higher water.  Inland rivers including the Willamette running high and out of shape.  Coastal rivers dropping. 6/4: No rain.  Inland rivers still very high.  Coastal rivers now too low.  Heard that fishing has been reasonably good in holes known for producing in high water…I only know of one. We’ll be fishing again this weekend.  Plunking for Chinook is what we plan.  Normally I drift, but last weekend was a father-in-law trip and this weekend is a (novice) brother trip… Later, Brian D. — Computer/Vision Engineer, Hewlett Packard (Corvallis, Oregon)

Brian, Why the heck are you still posting from your College account?  I thought things were going well enough at Corvallis that HP could afford a logon for almost everyone, even new hires. What is with this bait fishing.  Put that crap away and get your fly rod back out.  Find some good fly fishing spots so you can take me fishing if you ever get out there. BTW: Dave took VSI and is now working at and guiding for the Angler’s Covey. Regards, Bryan Remember:  Fishing is NOT a matter of life and death.               It is much more important than that! Bryan Call (719)590-5772  |All opinions expressed here are mine & mine alone. Hewlett-Packard Co.       |  But then, I’ve never let that stop me before.     P.O. BOX 2197             |    Many men go fishing all their lives without Colorado Springs, Co 80901|    knowing that it is not fish they are after.

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