Question:

First of all, do not attempt to attribute things to me that I did not say, by incorrect interpretation.  My reply to the original post read: "I wonder why somebody does not shoot you.  It would be an act of kindness to humanity." This is not open to interpretation. The statement is clear and complete, there is no ambiguity.

I agree that it’s clear.  An "act of kindness to humanity" is "good". You offered me useless, condescending,  and unsolicited advice…

On the contrary, I implied you had something good to offer when you post fly fishing information.  What you perceived as advice was actually a lighthearted way of saying I don’t approve of what you said.  As I’m sure you’d agree, there are times when something disagreeable is said in ROFF, and times when someone feels compelled to speak against it.  Perhaps I should have replaced the lighthearted, tongue-in-cheek tone of voice in the post with a simple "that was uncalled for and I don’t like it."  Then you couldn’t interpret it as condescending, or advice.  It was a statement of disapproval, nothing more.  …There are no "lines" here, which have not already long since been crossed, as people never tire of reiterating.

I think George clearly "crossed the line" when he wished Charlie Choc dead. If someone hadn’t flamed him for it first, I would have.  Let’s keep things in perspective.  We are talking about George Gerhke, not Timothy McVeigh. Timothy McVeigh deserves to die. This is an extremely  serious personal confrontation between myself, and another person. It is being carried out here because this is where it started, and because it is also of general interest.

If it is of general interest, then why would you tell me to keep out of it? If it’s personal, then why is it in public?

Response:

At this particular point I would like to take the opportunity of apologising to Jeff Connelly.  It was not my intention to be quite so personally insulting towards you. Upon reading the post again, I was indeed a little harsh on you, and there was no reason to jump on you like that. The sentiments expressed reflect my thoughts exactly, but it was unfair to direct them at you personally. I know you basically meant well. Please accept my apologies.

Accepted.  I apologize for sounding like a wise guy.  My intent wasn’t to be condescending, it was: "I think that kind of talk is out of line."  I’d say the same thing no matter who said it.  I think you and I basically feel the same way about things around here.

Response:

I think George clearly "crossed the line" when he wished Charlie Choc dead. If someone hadn’t flamed him for it first, I would have.  Let’s keep things in perspective.  We are talking about George Gerhke, not Timothy McVeigh. Timothy McVeigh deserves to die.

Jeez Connelly, what planet do you live on?  Get a grip man.  Wishing someone dead is not an uncommon thing.  It’s something everyone has longed for at one time or another, and it doesn’t make one evil, uncaring, or even noteworthy.  Each and every one of us deserves to die in someone’s estimation.  Big deal.  Let’s keep thing in perspective here; it’s not as if he wants to deprive him of the right to vote or something. Wolfgang

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Jeez Connelly, what planet do you live on?  Get a grip man.  Wishing someone dead is not an uncommon thing.  It’s something everyone has longed for at one time or another, and it doesn’t make one evil, uncaring, or even noteworthy.  Each and every one of us deserves to die in someone’s estimation.  Big deal.  Let’s keep thing in perspective here; it’s not as if he wants to deprive him of the right to vote or something.

Wolfgang, why don’t you just shrivel up and die.  Hey, that felt good!  Can I have your fly tying stuff?

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I only wonder if the FBI Agent that shot the little baby and the mother though the screen door AT RUBY RIDGE will be at Timothy McVeigh’s side holding the last needle clamp? My question is this.  What is the point?  If anyone thinks this execution is going to make people feel good, I don’t think so. I wouldn’t be surprised if McVeigh sneers or smiles at everyone before the State kills him.  But what is his point?  What is the message Timothy McVeigh has been trying to get across?  If anyone has an opinion? I wonder, in some strange way, if society may end up making him a martyr agaisn’t the politically incorrect?  Usually, there is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a crime for a crime? What a mess.  Exactly, what the hell is going on?  This man doesn’t care if they kill him.  He is going to his death, satisfied and convinced it was worth it all.  But?  WHAT was worth it?  What is his motive and will it pay off in the long run IF there IS a light at the end of the McVeigh tunnel/mystery? Strange? http://www.msnbc.com/news/557958.asp — George Gehrke   "All’s Fair With Fur or Feather" (gg) http://www.gink.com/chat  questions & answers site 7 PM Weekdays Pacific Time

Response:

I only wonder if the FBI Agent that shot the little baby and the mother though the screen door AT RUBY RIDGE will be at Timothy McVeigh’s side holding the last needle clamp?

You who have so much knowledge of things concerning flyfishing insist on posting not only off-topic stuff, but subjects you know will start a controversy with you right in the middle, I suspect right where you want to be. First off, this dipshit killed 168 innocent people, none who had a damned thing to do with Ruby Ridge, and he deserves to die.  That he apparently has a death wish (or wants to be seen as a martyr) is of no consequence in these proceedings. Secondly George, it is not the State of Indiana who is killing him, it is the US Government, the place of execution just happens to be in Terre Haute, IN. not that I give a crap where he dies. Frank Church

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snipped to save room: Secondly George, it is not the State of Indiana who is killing him, it is the US Government, the place of execution just happens to be in Terre Haute, IN. not that I give a crap where he dies. Frank Church

I’m sure not many people do.  You’re right about it being a Federal Case.   Just forget it.  You’re right. — George Gehrke   "All’s Fair With Fur or Feather" (gg) http://www.gink.com/chat  questions & answers site 7 PM Weekdays Pacific Time

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I wonder why somebody does not shoot you.  It would be an act of kindness to humanity. MC

Response:

I wonder why somebody does not shoot you.  It would be an act of kindness to humanity.

Slack off Mike before you become what you hate.  Find your way back to the fly fishing posts where you can do some good.  I’m sure your stretched blood vessels will thank you in the morning.

Response:

Slack off Mike before you become what you hate.  Find your way back to the fly fishing posts where you can do some good.  I’m sure your stretched blood vessels will thank you in the morning.

You just do not get it, do you? I must have done something really special at one time or another to deserve all the wonderful free advice I am getting lately. In order to become anything even remotely resembling Gehrke, to whom I assume you are referring, I would require, at the very least, a frontal lobotomy, a minimum forty years of practice at being the biggest arsehole extant, and my balls cut off. Even then, it is still doubtful whether I could ever be evil, dishonourable, or stupid enough to fill the bill. One last time, I do not hate Gehrke.  It is not possible for a sensible man to hate a thing. I did not hate the dog that bit my wife once, right outside our house, I simply destroyed it before it could bite her or anybody else again. I jumped on it and  broke its neck, although it also bit me twice in the arms. At least two ineffectual wankers who were present, including the owner of the beast, complained about that too, and attempted to prevent me from grabbing the animal in the first place. They can thank their lucky stars they did not cause me any real problems, or really get in my way, especially as my wife was still bleeding badly from the bite when the police arrived some time afterwards. All the stupid bastards could do was moan about the poor dog. Even the policemen were disgusted at them, especially after seeing the wound in my wife

Question:

I would like to publicly apologize for slandering and libeling Jump Tarpon in my previous post. NO, I have never fished with him. Nor do I know him personally.Nor have I ever talked to any person that has fished with him. However, I understand he is a great guide with a loyal following, and a great site at www.flyfishing.keywest I picked his web site at random – intent on making someones life more miserable than my own. I confess, after suffering from penial envy for most of my life, I am jealous! At forty-three, I should not be living with my mother. But, life is cruel and I need to focus on changing my wardrobe from lace panties and lurking in shadows to facing the real world as a man. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I would <snipped

this is the most gawdamnest advertising strategy i’ve ever seen. lines & business pretty slack in the keys, eh? –waldo

Response:

What kind of fuzzy logic is this piece of SPAM? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to publicly apologize for slandering and libeling Jump Tarpon in my previous post. NO, I have never fished with him. Nor do I know him personally.Nor have I ever talked to any person that has fished with him. However, I understand he is a great guide with a loyal following, and a great site at www.flyfishing.keywest I picked his web site at random – intent on making someones life more miserable than my own. I confess, after suffering from penial envy for most of my life, I am jealous! At forty-three, I should not be living with my mother. But, life is cruel and I need to focus on changing my wardrobe from lace panties and lurking in shadows to facing the real world as a man. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Ditto!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to publicly apologize for slandering and libeling Jump Tarpon in my previous post. NO, I have never fished with him. Nor do I know him personally.Nor have I ever talked to any person that has fished with him. However, I understand he is a great guide with a loyal following, and a great site at www.flyfishing.keywest I picked his web site at random – intent on making someones life more miserable than my own. I confess, after suffering from penial envy for most of my life, I am jealous! At forty-three, I should not be living with my mother. But, life is cruel and I need to focus on changing my wardrobe from lace panties and lurking in shadows to facing the real world as a man. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I think he’s trying to sell lace panties to fisherman. In that case, I’ll take two. Chris Fleitman Fisherman by nature-goofball by society.

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Funny that, I didn’t even bother to read the original post but I’m lost – especially about the bizarre ones that follow this directly –  frodo etc. Sorry chaps (actually I think you ,frodo jump tarpon et al] are really all the same one) but your strategy is so odd and obtuse that I couldn’t care less what you say about each other, or is that about yourself?  You are confusing me with someone who gives a damn! Right on Ernie and Walt!! DBJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to publicly apologize for slandering and libeling Jump Tarpon in my previous post. NO, I have never fished with him. Nor do I know him personally.Nor have I ever talked to any person that has fished with him. However, I understand he is a great guide with a loyal following, and a great site at www.flyfishing.keywest I picked his web site at random – intent on making someones life more miserable than my own. I confess, after suffering from penial envy for most of my life, I am jealous! At forty-three, I should not be living with my mother. But, life is cruel and I need to focus on changing my wardrobe from lace panties and lurking in shadows to facing the real world as a man. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

What kind of fuzzy logic is this piece of SPAM?

I think maybe it’s a setup for an ad for lace panties, in which case I suggest we do everything to encourage further posts.  Always wondered what they felt like.

Response:

What kind of fuzzy logic is this piece of SPAM? I think maybe it’s a setup for an ad for lace panties, in which case I suggest we do everything to encourage further posts.  Always wondered what they felt like.

Ask TimBone ;^)

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I think maybe it’s a setup for an ad for lace panties, in which case I suggest we do everything to encourage further posts.  Always wondered what they felt like. Ask TimBone ;^)

Ouch!  That was hard!  God I love this place! W

Response:

Question:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

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I love Mad River boats BUT one might get a little argument about the Explorer being the best all rounder from Swift Kipawa fans. who would suggest that the Kipawa is more stable more speedy (and faster too) more capacious more maneuverable more white water capable more seaworthy and more perttier. — Lyle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file.

If you want one boat that will do everything, I agree (though I haven’t tried the Swift).  If you want a boat for primarily or exclusively flatwater, then there are better choices out there in composite/fiberglass/kevlar — Andrew

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford.  Don’t spare the horses.  Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford.  Don’t spare the horses.  Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

I’ve been a kayaker for a while now, but just recently my new girlfriend wanted a canoe for us.  Have been looking for a used Royalite, or Royalex canoe for a couple months — just today we found it! I consulted with other canoe-types in the club, and this Mohawk Nova 16 (or other similar brands/models) seemed to do it all.  It is Royalex.  This is the exact one we got today, used for $500 with four float bags.  Boats like this are sort of "Do It All" dealies. Each time some new person asks "Which Canoe should i get?" i always say ‘Buy a used, decent brand’ and this is the first time i’ve had to try it out. We like this boat!

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. I own both an Old Town Discovery and the Explorer, and find the Old Town is too heavy to carry any distance (not to mention lift). The Explorer is lighter, handles better, and yes, it’s easier on the eyes. The Discovery might plow through rocks better, but takes on water in the slightest chops. I used to own a Coleman, I’m glad it died an ugly rocky death long ago. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/5189/index.htm Reach out and touch a rock – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while

With a dang, clanging Coleman, the lake’s not going to stay quiet for long. It’s practically a percussion instrument Eddy "Colemans are for keeping beer cool" Rapid.

Response:

It sounds like you’ve been doing your research.  I agree with all your points. About three years ago, I faced the same question.  Like you, I wanted the best for the least.  I purchased a OT Disco158.  I like it fine but if I had the opportunity to make that decision again, I would save a little more money and by the lighter boat with a more efficient hull.  I use it mostly for day paddling with my wife or fishing with my children.  I’ve run a class III in it but don’t suggest it.  I’ve paddled it 32 miles through the Okeefenokee swamp and camped out of it.  I am not interested in getting rid of it but, would not buy another. I understand the Disco169 has a more efficient hull but, it weighs in at a hefty 85lbs. You will find that weight makes more of a difference than you think.  I can car-top my 80lb canoe by myself but "it ain’t pretty."  The yolk makes it easier to carry but it still weighs 80lbs.  A lighter canoe will respond better to corrections/steering and may even be a little faster. If you can stand to wait, I’d recommend it.  You’ll just end up wanting to buy different one in a few years.  I would have by now but I am discovering both sea and whitewater kayaks! Oh yeah, one other thing.  If you really think you’re going to enjoy the sport, don’t give the Coleman too much thought.  You really DO get what you pay for in a canoe. Eric da Grate – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death…    

                        ~* s n i p *~ If you don’t mind the $65 or so shipping charge, try calling one of the companies someone mentioned else mentioned earlier: Rutabaga in Madison, Wisconsin sells LOTS of boats.  They always have new Old Town blems on hand at a greatly reduced rate.  Not a bad deal for a first boat.   They will be getting lots of used boats in another month after their annual "Canoecopia" show; many people will be trading in their boats for something new. Give them a call at 800-472-3353 (800-I-PADDLE) or check out their website:  www.paddlers.com Tell Darren I sent ya. Good luck. — To reply by email, remove mapson. from the edress Check out the links page at this site: www.paddlers.com

Response:

Thank you all for the replies & advice. I realize that researching a purchase like this, then even trying out different boats would be the best of all worlds, but hearing from folks that have been there is also a definite help. Thanks again!

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If the Coleman is the only way you are going to get on the water, do it!  If you want a boat, get one of the others.  Go demo some boats. The newsgroups cannot tell you how you will feel in a boat.  you need to try them.  Borrow a Coleman and then you can feel the pain in your lower back as you haul it to the water.  Then you will be informed. Try a lake boat with a keel in a moving river and learn why a keel is not too swell in moving water.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

patrickatcyberhighwaydotnet

Response:

Hello!

Well hello to you! I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe.

Actually, they aren’t.  Not compared to Old Town, Mad RIver, Mohawk, etc.  I wouldn’t want to hit too many rocks with a coleman.  Aluminum canoes are extremely durable, but, and this is a BIG BUTT, it’s hard to keep the suckers quiet.  Each and every time you place your paddle in the boat, you and every fish within 300 feet will hear the ‘thud’. I hear the Boy Scouts using them all the time at Upper Priest lake in Idaho…very noisy. already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

You live around here in Spokane?  You join the Spokane Canoe and Kayak Club yet?  I’m the newsletter editor.  We’re having our largest meeting/auction/potluck of the year come February 26th — next friday. If you wanna see a LOT of activity, come see it.  Email me if you want more info.

Response:

For the money you’re looking to spend, I would suggest you test paddle an OT Penobscot 17.  I’ve used mine quite a bit on lakes in minneapolis and in the BWCA.  It’s got moderate initial stability, fantastic secondary stability.  It has no rocker so it tracks like a arrow, but turns like a pig.  Leaning into a turn can give you a good bit of effective rocker.  Its a great tripping boat.

Response:

Tom, I was in your position a few years ago, let me tell you what I bought. I found that the best tradeoff for weight, durability, and cost, for lake and occasional class I/II rivers is fiberglass.  Not the cheap chopper gun variety, but a canoe made up of decent sheet materials.  I chose a Wenonah, largely because I have a great local dealer who sells them (as well as Mad River). Fiberglass advantages are hull stiffness without bulk which = paddling efficiency, no flex while paddling, easily repairable if it does become damaged, etc.  Fiberglass slips across rocks in a low water condition much better than aluminum – avoid that material at all costs if you plan on running low water.  About the only disadvantage is that the gel coat looks beautiful when new, and quickly gets scraped up pretty bad – but that means you’re actually USING the boat, doesn’t it? Your ideal boat in a plastic would be royalex – much lighter than the Old Town crosslink.  It’s well worth the upgrade cost.  I see tons of the Discovery boats for sale – and no royalex boats for sale!! You don’t find many (good) canoes for sale, because most people have no reason to sell them! They’re not that expensive, and last a lifetime with reasonable care. Good luck! Lou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

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Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe.

Yes, it has been done a lot, infact I bet a search on dejanews (www.dejanews.com) would answer most if not all your questions. The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while, or for giving to a scout troop to learn in (cheap and nigh on industructible).  I have an old town discovery 164 which is about the same as the penobscott, just weighs more… a lot more on a long portage. Personally I’d look around for a used good boat, and stay away from the colemans. Hope this helps Rich Johnson Enfield Nova Scotia Canada

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For flatwater, class I and Class II a good quality fiberglass (cloth, not spray in chopper gun) canoe would be the best bet.  I’d look for a used one, some places (like Rutabaga in Madison, WI and Piragis in ELY, MN) sell a number of used boats like that.  A new We-No-Nah in Tufweave (fiberglass like) can be had for $8-900.  Western Canoeing has similar boats.  Used Kevlar could be in the same range, used fiberglass less. These would work for Class I, not good for Class III, Class II depends on skill level.  For mostly whitewater, Royalex is a better choice, but maybe you can borrow a canoe for those infrequent forays?  It will be heavier and harder to paddle.  Coleman’s are a poor design, Discovery’s are (in the 16′ 9" and 17′ 4" versions) an okay design, but overy heavy and don’t have the long term durability of Royalex. Aluminum is a fine material for flatwater, as good or better than plastic, but can be dangerous in whitewater and a pain in shallow rivers as it tends to stick to rocks, so it’s easy to get stuck and broach. I’d rather (actually I do) have a 17′ Grumman than a Coleman or Discovery. I’d look for a quality fiberglass or used Kevlar boat from We-No-Nah, Mad River, Western, Sawyer. — Andrew Gooding

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Question:

I would appreciate any recommendations from people on good places to stay in Montana for a week in August. Wishes are: reasonably close to good fly fishing, right on or near some water would be excellent; a cabin with some personality and a kitchen in a somewhat private, open setting (not a town); fairly quiet with a small number of other guests; prefer moderate price, premium price for perfect spot OK. I’m open to any location in Montana, but am somewhat familiar to Twin Bridges area and liked it a lot. Also liked fishing in Yellowstone Park rivers so near that might be good. Have not fished Big Hole, hear I should. Any suggestions very much appreciated. Thank you. AWilson

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I would appreciate any recommendations from people on good places to stay in Montana for a week in August.

August is generally (but of course not ALWAYS) the worst month of the year. It’s hot, and the water levels are low, and the fish  (specially browns) are in a nocturnal phase then. August should be particularly skunky this year, as we have an anemic, El Nino snow pack–Utah and Colorado got all our snow.     At that time of year, the best fishing is at high altitude: beaver ponds, small brook trout creeks and mountain lakes. —  * Center for Computational Biology  * Montana State Bozeman  (406) 994-7061  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy */

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I actually saw and held a size 32 Royal Coachman tied by Lee Wulff…quite a few years ago, asit happens. They did exist at some point. Herters Professional Fly Tying book stated that the small fly was tied by Miss Helene Shaw on Jan 21, 1939. It was tied on a specially made English hook size forty. The was pattern was a Royal Coachman. I don’t know if you can believe this source. Herter’s books are very interesting to read. There is alot of good information in them but you really have to sift through them. According to him, he originated almost every fly pattern & designed most everything used for tying & fly fishing. Fun books from a real character! Willi

My original queries on seeing the request for where to buy these was "What length are these hooks, what gape are they, are they up eyed down eyed or straight eyed? I don’t believe they are any more than a renumbered small hook given the number to massage the egos of fly tiers.  A bit like American dress sizes are given smaller numbers than they get in England. richard

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I actually saw and held a size 32 Royal Coachman tied by Lee Wulff…quite a few years ago, asit happens. They did exist at some point.

Any major compromises in construction details ?…I mean… that band of peacock/floss/peacock alone would be wider than the shank length, wouldn’t it ? Curious…thanks… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I actually saw and held a size 32 Royal Coachman tied by Lee Wulff…quite a few years ago, asit happens. They did exist at some point. Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy

And what material was used for the leader and how many fish did he catch with these flies? richard

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I actually saw and held a size 32 Royal Coachman tied by Lee Wulff…quite a few years ago, asit happens. They did exist at some point.

Herters Professional Fly Tying book stated that the small fly was tied by Miss Helene Shaw on Jan 21, 1939. It was tied on a specially made English hook size forty. The was pattern was a Royal Coachman. I don’t know if you can believe this source. Herter’s books are very interesting to read. There is alot of good information in them but you really have to sift through them. According to him, he originated almost every fly pattern & designed most everything used for tying & fly fishing. Fun books from a real character! Willi

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I actually saw and held a size 32 Royal Coachman tied by Lee Wulff…quite a few years ago, asit happens. They did exist at some point. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy

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Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

FWIW. Some years ago I read in the "Guiness book of records", the smallest fly ever tyed on a hook was a dry "Royal Coachman" size 30+ something back in the thirties by a lady. ( Don’t recall her name)  Jocke

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I have some size #32 hooks (sorry, personal inventory only). I can not locate my source but they are labeled: Mustad M277. Mustad’s web site may be of further assistance. Good luck all! Mike.

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Somewhere down from #20 you have to tie a snell because there is no eye, just a little nub.

I just returned from a old tackle shop, and while I was there making my purchase of flies, I checked out the hooks.  The smallest I could find there was a size #28, it had a eye too.  I was talking to a dealer at a shop  few weeks ago, and he claimed there is a size #32 still around and this does not have a eye, just a little "nub" as you have stated…. –Randy Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $500.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

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And I’ve seen ‘em, too. Some rodbuilders now use them to lay into the epoxy coat on the guide wraps. Very decorative, but can’t imagine the size tippet you’d need to put through the eye.

Ahh now I understand.  These hooks are made by Letraset….! richard

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Somewhere down from #20 you have to tie a snell because there is no eye, just a little nub. And I’ve seen ‘em, too. Some rodbuilders now use them to lay into the epoxy coat on the guide wraps. Very decorative, but can’t imagine the size tippet you’d need to put through the eye.

 The initial question is…why so small a HOOK?  Once you get to the level of stability with 8x…#22_hook?, why don’t you just tie the smaller pattern on the #22?  Once you get to #22..the hooking % will probably drop…..? steve

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And I’ve seen ‘em, too. Some rodbuilders now use them to lay into the epoxy coat on the guide wraps. Very decorative, but can’t imagine the size tippet you’d need to put through the eye.

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Somewhere down from #20 you have to tie a snell because there is no eye, just a little nub. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And I’ve seen ‘em, too. Some rodbuilders now use them to lay into the epoxy coat on the guide wraps. Very decorative, but can’t imagine the size tippet you’d need to put through the eye.

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Go on then tell us what is a size #32 hook when it’s at home? What length is it or a size #30 for that matter? What gape? Is there an eye? Is it ringed straight?  Or turned up or down?

Some European hooks for coarse fishing are as small as a 30 or 32 on Mustad scale.  They are usually made with a spade end, to be whipped directly to nylon.  These seem different from the gold up-eyed hooks for fly tyers sold briefly in N.America as size 30 or 32 in the 1970s. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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I watched two fellows tie #30s by lanternlight just a couple of weekends ago beside the West Branch of the Ausable in NY. Mind you, I didn’t see anyone actually _fish_ with ‘em!

Go on then tell us what is a size #32 hook when it’s at home? What length is it or a size #30 for that matter? What gape? Is there an eye? Is it ringed straight?  Or turned up or down? Or are these hooks numbered in a reverse of the practice used in describing dress sizes in America?  A size 12 dress in America would be called a size 18 in England to flatter the buyer. Is there a fawning practice here of certain crafty hook suppliers to massage the egos of fly tyers and thus ensure some extra sales? richard

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: Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. : Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you : might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. : Anglerboy : — : Trout fear me, : Women want me. Aren’t they controlled by the EPA these days as suspected carcinogens as are other fine dusts like asbestos and silica? Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (415)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971

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Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. The smallest hook I ever seen was a #28, and I cannot imagine something smaller. Personnally I will not fish with something smaller than 18 or 20.

I watched two fellows tie #30s by lanternlight just a couple of weekends ago beside the West Branch of the Ausable in NY. Mind you, I didn’t see anyone actually _fish_ with ‘em! — Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Disclaimer: Over 30 and born in Fredericton, NB

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   From my experiences, there are some differences between companies as to sizes of hooks. I have seen no. 20 hooks from Veniard that compared to no 18 hooks from Partridge.

This is true; the standards vary.  Regarding #32’s, I think there is a photograph in Robert Traver’s _Anatomy of a Fisherman_ which shows the #32 hooks which John Voelker/Robert Traver used. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy The smallest hook I ever seen was a #28, and I cannot imagine something smaller. Personnally I will not fish with something smaller than 18 or 20. By the way, does anyone know what unit of measure these hook numbers use? Sounds like a fraction of something, as the greater the number, the smaller the hook, but not being familiar with UK/US units of measure, I’m missing the starting point. We adopted the same numbers in France.

        From my experiences, there are some differences between companies as to sizes of hooks. I have seen no. 20 hooks from Veniard that compared to no 18 hooks from Partridge.

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Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you

might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me. what do you do when the fish are only selectively rising to #32 bugs? why you quit, sit and watch the fish rise, or just enjoy being outside, or you could drink a few beers. chris

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Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook.

A friend of mine gave a box of 100 size 32 hooks to me around 1973.  Since I have only a dozen or so left and not in the original box I cannot pass along any additional manufacturer info other than to discrbe them as gold with up-turned eyes.  I tied extremely small midges which worked quite well at producing takes on the Monocacy and Little Lehigh in eastern PA. However, as suggested, hooking fish was tough. I have never seen commercially advertized hooks smaller than 28 aside from these which were available only for a year or two back in the mid 1970s.  ..No, the few I have left are not for sale. Dennis

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Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook.

Size 32 hooks are sold in Europe.  They are made with spade ends, for you to whip on to a tippet, or sold snelled. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy

The smallest hook I ever seen was a #28, and I cannot imagine something smaller. Personnally I will not fish with something smaller than 18 or 20. By the way, does anyone know what unit of measure these hook numbers use? Sounds like a fraction of something, as the greater the number, the smaller the hook, but not being familiar with UK/US units of measure, I’m missing the starting point. We adopted the same numbers in France.

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Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks.

Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

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Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook.

Darn tootin’. I have mustad 94842 hollow points down to a size 28 and with my aging eyesight I can barely see the eye (let alone thread anything through it). The hole appears to be smaller than the diameter of a human hair and you can only just see light through it. David E. Malone All opinions expressed are my own.

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Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Will be glad to pay or trade for any amount.  Gunner

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Question:

This is probably more information than most people would like to see, but its part of what I do for a living, and I’ve waded thru the physics of braided leaders, so here goes Current regulations regarding Country of Origin require all imported items to be marked with the country of origin.  This means that at it basic form, an article, described in the terms of the Harmonised Tariff Code Nomenclature, must delclare the country in which it first meets that definition as its origin. In order to change the origin must undergo "substantial transformation" which results in a new article with a new HTN classification.   For example, Steel exported from Canada to Taiwan is Canadian; ball bearings made from that steel are Taiwanese, and when shipped to England and used in the manufacture of a Hardy fly reel, they become part of the reel and now are a product of the UK.   Apparel and textile rules are different, and somewhat more complex.  The percentage of content rules generally apply to Lesser Developed Countries (LDC’s) in which a transformation is deeemed to have taken place if 35% of the value was added in the LDC. NAFTA for Canada and Mexico, rules are slighly different, but generally   the "substantial transformation" principle applies. and as always there are exceptions. jg

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Current regulations regarding Country of Origin require all imported items to be marked with the country of origin.  This means that at it basic form, an article, described in the terms of the Harmonised Tariff Code Nomenclature, must delclare the country in which it first meets that definition as its origin.

Hi J.J. It’s kind of like tying a woolly bugger on a Japanese hook, using Italian thread, American chenille and Chinese hackle/marabou. Thanks for the information. I sure didn’t think the post was too long. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Question:

I need info on getting info (flyfishing for trout) in northern Washington, Idaho and Montana states. Thanx Bish

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I need info on getting info (flyfishing for trout) in northern Washington, Idaho and Montana states.

Hi Bish Your request is fairly broad.  In Washington I recommend you contact the Blue Dun Fly Shop in Wenatchee (509-664-2416) and in Idaho check with the Cast a Way Fly Shop in Coeur d’Alene (208-765-3313). In Montana the Yellowstone River is fishing good, most of the waters in the Park are also fishing well.  The Clarks Fork is high but starting to turn on.  The Madison is good AM & PM and slow through the day.  The Gallatin is Fishing good through the day and into the evening (caddis).   Hoppers, caddis, woolly buggers, and bead heads are the flies of choice.  Also Wulffs, Trudes, etc. are alway a good choice. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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The following are acouple of places that may be able to answer questions about fly fishing in Montana http://www.cyberport.net/ecs/troutski/troutski.html http://www.cyberport.net/ecs/wwater/gnwwater.html — Electronic Cottage Services http://www.cyberport.net/ecs/lakeco/business/ecs/ecshome.html PO Box 81 Polson, MT 59860 406-887-2899

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The following are acouple of places that may be able to answer questions about fly fishing in Montana

OR NOT!!!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: news.micron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.ed u!swrinde!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nn tp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.fibr.net!news.inter netMCI.com!news-admin Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: InternetMCI Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup535.bloomington.mci.net The following are acouple of places that may be able to answer questions about fly fishing in Montana OR NOT!!!

Try calling the Idaho Outfitters and Guides Association or visit the Idaho home page.

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Question:

writes: `Planing a trip tp Baum Lake soon. Any recommendatins as to feel of the lake and suggestions recommended. Is float-yube a good idea for Baum?

Float tubes are fine, but Baum Lake is really more like a slow moving section of Hat Creek than a real lake and there is a current in it.  If you use a tube, use an anchor, and be prepared to walk back from the far end of the lake as it is easier to walk back than to kick your tube back up current.  A pram or better yet a canoe is a better choice if you have one.                                           Good fishing,                                                  Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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`Planing a trip tp Baum Lake soon. Any recommendatins as to feel of the lake and suggestions recommended. Is float-yube a good idea for Baum?

Yes, a float tube, pram or canoe are all good ideas for Baum. Take in some stream fishing in the area too.  But be careful fishing under the powerlines if you visit Hat Creek Powerhouse#2 riffle.  They have a magnetic effect that causes otherwise sane anglers to wade and cast within ten feet of each other. Mark Vinsel http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

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`Planing a trip tp Baum Lake soon. Any recommendatins as to feel of the lake and suggestions recommended. Is float-yube a good idea for Baum?

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I would say that a float tube venture is ok, but there is a good enough flow that it will make getting back a bit tuff. However, there is a trail on one side of the lake that you can return on. Personally, I use a canoe. Always play it safe! Johnny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – `Planing a trip tp Baum Lake soon. Any recommendatins as to feel of the lake and suggestions recommended. Is float-yube a good idea for Baum?

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Question:

I t is good to see that at least one craft/profession has proven resitant to the mechanization of our society. A fly still bears the indelible signature of the tier. It is too bad that so many of our flies are signed by tiers from third world nations making a pitiful wage who have no hope whatever of legally using the flies they tie. A.J.Thramer Bamboo rod craftsman

I would guess that 90% of the flies purchased in the USA are tied overseas.  If I had to depend on US tiers to supply my store I would have closed up about 10 years ago.  I hope no one will take offense to that statement. Our preseason order with Umpqua Feather Merchants is for 20 thousand dozen flies.  We then fill in the rest of the year depending on how it goes. We also buy some specialty flies from  a half-dozen other sources. They are US tiers. I would love to have all my flies tied by Al Troth, Bob Quigley and Dave Whitlock, but that is impossible. In California, good imported trout flies tied on high quality Japanese hooks, sell retail for $1.75 each.  I love to have people take our fly tieing classes because afterwards they will never complane about the price of flies. I thought about deleting this rather than posting it, but after reading it about 6 times I decided that it was very factual. I started selling flies in a very good sporting goods store thirty years ago. We had Dan Bailey’s US tied flies and Cortland imported flies from Kenya. A lot of people would not be going fly fishing if we didn’t have imported flies. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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Hi Jim, Didn’t know you’d become a tackle dealer too. I need a jungle cock cape. Stripers are running in the Georges, Later, Bob Olmsted

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The situation has not improved since you studied it. I am a retired school teacher augmenting my pension by tying flies professionally. I tied for about 10 years before retiring so I could afford to teach. The $30,000 would be reachable. A.K. Best claimed to tie 3,000 dozen/year and I think that is a reasonable number. I like to fish too much to reach that number. The flies tied overseas vary in quality but the good ones are definitely fishable. But when one supplier plans on selling 750,000 dozen this year, it shows a real demand for tyers. I think the best route for local tyers is to custom tie for shops or individual fishermen/fisherwomen/fisherkids. Most of my tying is for one shop and is for patterns not covered by the big boys. I think the Vic’s Fly-By-Night Too much time spent tying Not enough fishing

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The situation has not improved since you studied it. I am a retired school teacher augmenting my pension by tying flies professionally. I tied for about 10 years before retiring so I could afford to teach. The $30,000 would be reachable. A.K. Best claimed to tie 3,000 dozen/year and I think that is a reasonable number. I like to fish too much to reach that number. The flies tied overseas vary in quality but the good ones are definitely fishable. But when one supplier plans on selling 750,000 dozen this year, it shows a real demand for tyers. I think the best route for local tyers is to custom tie for shops or individual fishermen/fisherwomen/fisherkids. Most of my tying is for one shop and is for patterns not covered by the big boys. I think the Vic’s Fly-By-Night Too much time spent tying Not enough fishing

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What I would *really* like to see is a machine-tied fly in several sizes using natural materials. I promise to be awestruck if it has upright wings and a split tail. Now that would be something to hoot about! — Ken Clark Ft. Lupton, CO

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It’s really amazing the number of customers that think flies are tied by a machine.  Of course (most of) these are the spouses of fly fishermen coming in to buy a gift.  I had always thought like you – I would like to see THAT machine! Sandy Lockleer Creekside Fly Shop, Salem, Oregon http://www.halcyon.com/flyshop/

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Hi Ken. I saw an ad for hand tied flies and wondered if there was any other way? Silly header really! A machine dextrous enough to tie flies really would be something. Mind you judging by some of the flies that are tied, the inventor of such a machine would make a packet.                                              Tight lines. Dave T. What I would *really* like to see is a machine-tied fly in several sizes using natural materials. I promise to be awestruck if it has upright wings and a split tail. Now that would be something to hoot about!

– dave tait

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I had always thought like you – I would like to see THAT machine!

     Especially the one that does the wings on Jock Scotts.

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I t is good to see that at least one craft/profession has proven resitant to the mechanization of our society. A fly still bears the indelible signature of the tier. It is too bad that so many of our flies are signed by tiers from third world nations making a pitiful wage who have no hope whatever of legally using the flies they tie. A.J.Thramer Bamboo rod craftsman

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I totally agree with this statement. As a former pro tyer I was and still am recieving offers from Kenyans who would like to supply me with trout flies at a fraction of the cost of UK flies. I refused such offers however some of my conterpartarts took up the cheap fly challenge and import tens of thousands of flies per year. These so called fly tyers then sell flies tied by others as their own produce. I look forward to reading of the first test case in the UK of a fly tyer being prosecuted under the trades description act.                                  Dave Tait. You’ve matched the hatch but can you catch the catch? writes I t is good to see that at least one craft/profession has proven resitant to the mechanization of our society. A fly still bears the indelible signature of the tier. It is too bad that so many of our flies are signed by tiers from third world nations making a pitiful wage who have no hope whatever of legally using the flies they tie. A.J.Thramer Bamboo rod craftsman

– dave tait

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A.J writes: It is good to see that at least one

craft/profession has proven resitant to the mechanization of our society. A fly still bears the indelible signature of the tier. It is too bad that so many of our flies are signed by tiers from third world nations making a pitiful wage who have no hope whatever of legally using the flies they tie. I agree mostly with your sentiments. "Hand-tied" is no assurance of quality, per se, however and there are some truly fine flies flies coming in from overseas. If there were not such a large market for them, they wouldn’t be in the shops. Being an advocate of free market economics, I cannot criticize the fact of imports meeting market demands but it would be interesting to learn whether overseas fly manufacturers may be creating opportunities for some individuals that may not otherwise have existed before. Are their wages "pitiful" compared to their local economies? Can domestic tyers supply demand? Quien sabe? — Ken Clark Ft. Lupton, CO

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I cannot verify that the wages paid are different than the prevailing in their area. I suspect that it is an opportunity that the tiers would not have if the fly factories were not there. I can shed some light on the plight of the tier/shop owner.  Many of the tiers have always tended to be unreliable, this lead to unreliable supply. This is obviously a major problem for a commodity as seasonal as flies. A tyer who wants to be a reliable supplier to a shop has a tough road ahead until he can prove himself IF he is given a chance. The point of it being that the overseas suppliers have not competed on a cost basis but on a supply basis. A.J.Thramer

Response:

A.J writes: It is good to see that at least one craft/profession has proven resitant to the mechanization of our society. A fly still bears the indelible signature of the tier. It is too bad that so many of our flies are signed by tiers from third world nations making a pitiful wage who have no hope whatever of legally using the flies they tie.

In fact, tiers in Third World countries often make relatively decent wages, compared to those they

Question:

This may be old info, and I can’t vouch for the truth in it, but I found this to be funny. An article I read recently said that PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) had not copyrighted "PETA" acronym. By not doing so, it was left open to be used by any other group that might choose to copyright it.      (Snip)    How about ‘People Enraged at the Tactics of Assholes’?

Dee Crabtree

Response:

Dear All; PETA humor is an oxymoron.  PETA people have no sense of humor. Popping Extra Tumms Antacids Perpetually Engendered to Thoughtless Activities Profanity, Epithets and Terrorist Activities Geez, I’m out!  (That first one is pretty far out there!  It’s funny if you keep reading it or saying it over to yourself.  Handgrenade humour.) Sincerely JB

Response:

This may be old info, and I can’t vouch for the truth in it, but I found this to be funny. An article I read recently said that PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) had not copyrighted "PETA" acronym. By not doing so, it was left open to be used by any other group that might choose to copyright it.      (Snip)    How about ‘People Enraged at the Tactics of Assholes’?

check out www.peta.org (people eating tasty animals) I think.. -Dan-

Response:

Please join my PETA group today !!! "Persons Enjoying Trout Almondine " TimW

Response:

Iwould like to start a local chapter of PETA; People Extremely Tired of Assholes Dale

Response:

Iwould like to start a local chapter of PETA; People Extremely Tired of Assholes Dale

And who would make up the charter membership, Dan ??? Dee Crabtree

Response:

Quoting fuscor6285 from a message in rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    < An article I read recently said that PETA (People for the Ethical    < Treatment of Animals) had not copyrighted "PETA" acronym. By not    < doing so, it was left open to be used by any other group that might    < choose to copyright it.    <    <     (Snip)    <     How about ‘People Enraged at the Tactics of Assholes’? You can check out the web page of that other group "People Eating Tasty Animals" at http://www.peta.org/ Jim Carlisle

Response:

And someone did, creating a PETA group (People Eating Tasty Animals). Supposedly the old peta is trying to force the new peta to relinquish the acronym. Whether true or not, it is humorous, and sums up my attitude towards PETA. It is true and there is a web page dedicated to it’s proliferation. I just can’t remember what it is though!

Try http://www.peta.org Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Gary McMeekin

Response:

This may be old info, and I can’t vouch for the truth in it, but I found this to be funny. An article I read recently said that PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) had not copyrighted "PETA" acronym. By not doing so, it was left open to be used by any other group that might choose to copyright it.      (Snip)    How about ‘People Enraged at the Tactics of Assholes’?

i can’t see the past posts so i may be repeating but there is a home page already using the peta name …people eating tasty animals…try http://www.peta.org or something like that and you will see why peta wishes they had regestered their name…  ;) jeff

Response:

This may be old info, and I can’t vouch for the truth in it, but I found this to be funny. An article I read recently said that PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) had not copyrighted "PETA" acronym. By not doing so, it was left open to be used by any other group that might choose to copyright it.   And someone did, creating a PETA group (People Eating Tasty Animals). Supposedly the old peta is trying to force the new peta to relinquish the acronym. Whether true or not, it is humorous, and sums up my attitude towards PETA.

Response:

And someone did, creating a PETA group (People Eating Tasty Animals). Supposedly the old peta is trying to force the new peta to relinquish the acronym. Whether true or not, it is humorous, and sums up my attitude towards PETA.

It is true and there is a web page dedicated to it’s proliferation. I just can’t remember what it is though! Gary McMeekin

Response:

This may be old info, and I can’t vouch for the truth in it, but I found this to be funny. An article I read recently said that PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) had not copyrighted "PETA" acronym. By not doing so, it was left open to be used by any other group that might choose to copyright it.  

        (Snip)         How about ‘People Enraged at the Tactics of Assholes’?

Response: