Question:

    i think the problem lies with bad leader material.  leaders "age", and become absurdly brittle and weak, even in packaging.  the damn stuff has probably been on the shelf at wallyworld for five or six years.  go to a decent specialty shop and get new leader material.     otherwise, i think it’s your knots.  i have desperately tried to snap flies off on the back cast, and i just can’t do it.  hell, maybe you just have a special talent…

Excuse me, may I help you?  Oh, I see.  Well, you turned left into "Leader Minutia" by mistake.  Go back down the hallway you came up, make a left by the drinking fountain, head for the sign that says "Actually Fishing Outdoors", and then past the restrooms, and right into "Turning A Nice Phrase".  Don’t mention it, have a nice day.

Response:

 Check your leader often, especially if you see a messy cast.

hmmm….this will be bad news for anyone fishing with me… you boys’ll be doin a whole lot of leader checks… jeff (purely messy)

Response:

…from my experience, cloning ain’t required…damned things are everywhere already…and around water? well, you probably haven’t seen the movie and don’t know the reproductive methods of gremlins, but…let’s just say it doesn’t look good for fisherpeople… jeff (creator of "the gremlin defense" – royalties required, unauthorized use or duplication will be punishable by law, bycracky) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … gremlins…….caught a glimpse of one once…looked sorta like a tiny waldo-wolfgang thing….. Nasty little buggers from all I’ve heard. Wolfgang and the BAD news is we got the technology to clone!      

Response:

It might be that the back cast is low enough to actually hit the water or the ground, then there’s no need for special talents to break off the fly. Most of the guys that I’ve helped with their casting technique had one common problem, their back cast was way too low. But for this problem to appear again and again, I would also guess that the leader is the problem. /Roger

I agree with both points. I have occasionally broken the hook off the fly by letting it hit the rocks behind me. What really makes that a great trick is to continue fishing with the hookless fly. Makes it a bit more of a sporting challenge! Bob — http://rwpatton.home.netcom.com/

Response:

By the way, I live in McKinney about 30 miles or so north of Dallas. Thanks again, Nick Wright

Dale gave you an excellent tip re: the FWFF event in September, and what sounded suspiciously like an invite to Backwoods for the Roadkill Roundup.  You could gain quite a bit by attending either, and moreso by attending both.  If you’d like, drop me an email, and I’ll try to provide as much "local" info as I can. TC, R

Response:

Check your leader often, especially if you see a messy cast. Remove the overhand knots before they tighten.  Don’t delay cutting knots out of the leader and rebuilding it.

Great advice! I saved a lot of time and frustration once I started noticing my messy casts right away and dealing with it before it became an unmanageable mess.  You can untangle things (usually) fairly easily if you stop casting right away. A guide told me the minute rule (ok, maybe 30 seconds)…if you can’t fix it in under (a minute), then cut and redo… you’ll save time, be happier and get your fly on the water… which is the only way you can catch fish. — Rob (of course, fixing messy casting is another problem alltogether…)

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Nick,     Ssounds to me like the whole outfit has been sitting around for a long time…I don’t know why floating line would sink rapidly unless it was old…..Also, there are several sites you can visit to learn to tie different types of knots, buy books, post messages, buy equipment, etc. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/   they have a beginners’ section http://www.thejump.net/fishing/fishing.html  fishin’ knots & other things And here are some links that may be helpful: http://flyfishing.miningco.com/ http://www.njflyfishing.com/ http://www.roundrocks.com/rocks/html/misc.html I’m sure all the others here can also help you a lot…keep at it, ask a lot of questions & PRACTICE!!! Graden

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… gremlins…….caught a glimpse of one once…looked sorta like a tiny waldo-wolfgang thing…..

Nasty little buggers from all I’ve heard. Wolfgang and the BAD news is we got the technology to clone!      

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could it be that you’re snapping the fly off on the backcast? If you put too much energy into it you can crack the line like a whip, and the fly goes hell knows where. Bob Just what I was thinking.  Put a little mark with a marker on the knot and tippet just above the fly to determine if this is happening if you can’t easily tell.  Does it appear, by looking at the tippet end, if the knot is untying, or is the end, once the fly is gone, a "clean" end? Where in N. Texas are you located?  If you’re near the DFW area, there are a number of instructors (Main Street Outfitters, in FW, for one), and a couple of FFing clubs that might provide some help.  IMO, instruction, particularly professional instruction, will provide dividends beyond the cost incurred (see a recent related thread on this very topic).  If you are comfortable with doing so, reply with a general location – there are several regulars in the general Fort Worth-Dallas <G area. TC, R

Thanks for all the advice. Thinking back on it, this may very well be what I was doing. I had not thought about it before. But that would explain why the leader looked as though it had been cut rather than the knot simply coming undone. I’m going to get all new line for my rod. The "floating fly line" that came with it sinks very rapidly, and it did not come with backing. So I’ll buy some new lines and leaders (hopefully this will help a little) and I’ll continue practicing my casting. Another question semi-related. I’m going to buy the leaders that come tapered instead of tying my own, in this case how necessary is it to have a tippet? By the way, I live in McKinney about 30 miles or so north of Dallas. Thanks again, Nick Wright

Response:

Another question semi-related. I’m going to buy the leaders that come tapered instead of tying my own, in this case how necessary is it to have a tippet?

Knotless tapered leaders are good, but you will definitely need to get some tippet.  Every time you tie on a fly you’re going to lose some material and by tying on some tippet you can delay replacing the leader.  I remember when I was starting out – I ended up changing leaders quite often until I solved my tailing loops (if you see lots of overhand knots all through your leader you are throwing a tailing loop) in which case adding tippet is not as big an issue<g.  Check your leader often, especially if you see a messy cast. Remove the overhand knots before they tighten.  Don’t delay cutting knots out of the leader and rebuilding it. What length and weight leader/tippet to use is an important question.  For most of the fishing I do (panfish, small bass, small trout) I get by with a 7 foot 4x tapered leader with 4x and/or 5x tippet added on.  I carry spools or 4x through 7x tippet for modifying the end of the leader as needed. –Stan

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As a newbie of one year My most difficult time learning  was trying to forget I didn’t have a spinning rod with weights Easy does it grasshopper. Let the rod and line do the work — Fly Fisherman With a Furless Naked Cat named Dub.

Response:

that come tapered instead of tying my own, in this case how necessary is it to have a tippet? By the way, I live in McKinney about 30 miles or so north of Dallas.

I live in Plano. You need to buy a spool of tippet material. When fishing for bluegill around here I simply buy a 7.5 foot tapered 3x leader and immediately tie on a couple of feet of 4x tippet material. The waters we fish have so much stuff growing in the water that you gather a bowl of salad on each knott on a regular basis. By the time you leave a couple of flies in trees and snap a couple of flies off on the casts and change flies a couple of times you will need to replace the tippet with another couple of feet of tippet. It is no problem as a roll of tippet material lasts for a couple of years anyway and it is a good idea to replace it every couple of years anyway. BTW the Roadkill Roundtable meets each Saturday morning to tie flies and tell lies at Backwoods in the southeast corner of Campbell and Coit in Richardson. Come join us for a bs session anytime you want.We are a kind of a splinter group of The Dallas Flyfisher Club and the guys that work at the shop are always available to answer any questions. Ron manages the shop and Marshal works there and they are very knowledgable. Big Dale

Response:

nick – you’ve gotten plenty of good opinions, but you’ll soon discover the truth… gremlins.  damn things been plaguing all aspects of my flyfishing.  caught a glimpse of one once…looked sorta like a tiny waldo-wolfgang thing. they can tie knots in the tippet, snag flies in trees, pull rod tips into closing doors or ceiling fans, push you down into the water in front of your fishing companions just as you’re stepping into a stream…oh the horrors you’re in for now!!  you’ll love every moment – well, most of em. (my opinion… big fly, light or bad tippet, too powerful snapping and too soon on the forward casting stroke.) jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart since I’ve been wanting to try flyfishing. I’ve just about got the knack of fly casting (at least short distances), by practicing in my yard with a small piece of cloth tied on. My question is this, I took it out to the water tonight to give it a "real world" go and I ran into a problem. The flies would not stay tied to the leader. I tried the improved clinch and also the double clinch and without fail after about 5-6 casts the fly would be gone. I know that I’m tying these knots correctly. So I’m wondering where the problem can be? The little piece of cloth I’ve used for practice never once came off. Is it possible that the leader that came with the kit is either just really bad or possibly really old? Will getting a new leader solve my problem? Or are clinch knots not the proper way to tie on? Thanks for any advice. Nick Wright

Response:

Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart since I’ve been wanting to try flyfishing. I’ve just about got the knack of fly casting (at least short distances), by practicing in my yard with a small piece of cloth tied on. My question is this, I took it out to the water tonight to give it a "real world" go and I ran into a problem. The flies would not stay tied to the leader. I tried the improved clinch and also the double clinch and without fail after about 5-6 casts the fly would be gone. I know that I’m tying these knots correctly. So I’m wondering where the problem can be? The little piece of cloth I’ve used for practice never once came off. Is it possible that the leader that came with the kit is either just really bad or possibly really old? Will getting a new leader solve my problem? Or are clinch knots not the proper way to tie on? Thanks for any advice. Nick Wright

Response:

Could it be that you’re snapping the fly off on the backcast? If you put too much energy into it you can crack the line like a whip, and the fly goes hell knows where. Bob — http://rwpatton.home.netcom.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart since I’ve been wanting to try flyfishing. I’ve just about got the knack of fly casting (at least short distances), by practicing in my yard with a small piece of cloth tied on. My question is this, I took it out to the water tonight to give it a "real world" go and I ran into a problem. The flies would not stay tied to the leader. I tried the improved clinch and also the double clinch and without fail after about 5-6 casts the fly would be gone. I know that I’m tying these knots correctly. So I’m wondering where the problem can be? The little piece of cloth I’ve used for practice never once came off. Is it possible that the leader that came with the kit is either just really bad or possibly really old? Will getting a new leader solve my problem? Or are clinch knots not the proper way to tie on? Thanks for any advice. Nick Wright

Response:

Could it be that you’re snapping the fly off on the backcast? If you put too much energy into it you can crack the line like a whip, and the fly goes hell knows where. Bob

Just what I was thinking.  Put a little mark with a marker on the knot and tippet just above the fly to determine if this is happening if you can’t easily tell.  Does it appear, by looking at the tippet end, if the knot is untying, or is the end, once the fly is gone, a "clean" end? Where in N. Texas are you located?  If you’re near the DFW area, there are a number of instructors (Main Street Outfitters, in FW, for one), and a couple of FFing clubs that might provide some help.  IMO, instruction, particularly professional instruction, will provide dividends beyond the cost incurred (see a recent related thread on this very topic).  If you are comfortable with doing so, reply with a general location – there are several regulars in the general Fort Worth-Dallas <G area. TC, R

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart since I’ve been wanting to try flyfishing. I’ve just about got the knack of fly casting (at least short distances), by practicing in my yard with a small piece of cloth tied on. My question is this, I took it out to the water tonight to give it a "real world" go and I ran into a problem. The flies would not stay tied to the leader. I tried the improved clinch and also the double clinch and without fail after about 5-6 casts the fly would be gone. I know that I’m tying these knots correctly. So I’m wondering where the problem can be? The little piece of cloth I’ve used for practice never once came off. Is it possible that the leader that came with the kit is either just really bad or possibly really old? Will getting a new leader solve my problem? Or are clinch knots not the proper way to tie on? Thanks for any advice. Nick Wright

Most likely you are snapping them off.  Untutored beginners frequently show a natural tendency to crack a fly line like a whip.  The correction is a matter of timing.  You are probably starting the forward cast too early and overpowering it, causing the fly to accelerate to supersonic speed in a small fraction of a second….more stress than the tippet can handle.  It didn’t happen with the piece of cloth because it’s greater air resistance simply wouldn’t allow that kind of acceleration.  Watch you back cast.  Don’t start the forward motion until the line extends completely to the rear. If possible, get an experienced caster to coach you.  If not, take lessons or rent videos and practice, practice, practice. Wolfgang

Response:

"Wolfgang Siebeneich" Most likely you are snapping them off.  Untutored beginners frequently show a natural tendency to crack a fly line like a whip.  The correction is a matter of timing.  You are probably starting the forward cast too early and overpowering it, causing the fly to accelerate to supersonic speed in a small fraction of a second….more stress than the tippet can handle.  It didn’t happen with the piece of cloth because it’s greater air resistance simply wouldn’t allow that kind of acceleration.  Watch you back cast.  Don’t start the forward motion until the line extends completely to the rear. If possible, get an experienced caster to coach you.  If not, take lessons or rent videos and practice, practice, practice.

I had virtually the same thing written out to send and then thought I’d check and see if it was already in the thread. What he said! Clark

Response:

Could it be that you’re snapping the fly off on the backcast? If you put too much energy into it you can crack the line like a whip, and the fly goes hell knows where. Bob

Good advice. Is it possible that the leader that came with the kit is either just really bad or possibly really old? Will getting a new leader solve my problem? Or are clinch knots not the proper way to tie on? Thanks for any advice.

The leader could weak. If in doubt, you don’t have to buy a new leader. Buy a spool of 5x tippet and learn to tie about a 18" to 24" piece onto the leader with a double surgeon’s knot. You should be doing that anyway. Cut the leader back to a thicker diameter first. It wouldn’t hurt to replace the whole leader, though. Did you say you paid $20 for this outfit? A decent store-bought leader will cost a quarter of that, but you can tie up your own, after spending more than $20 on materials. Then you can look into buying fly-tying materials, and then you can build your own rods. Eventually, you might build a drift boat and even knit your own waders. The possibilities are endless.

Response:

Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart

    i think the problem lies with bad leader material.  leaders "age", and become absurdly brittle and weak, even in packaging.  the damn stuff has probably been on the shelf at wallyworld for five or six years.  go to a decent specialty shop and get new leader material.     otherwise, i think it’s your knots.  i have desperately tried to snap flies off on the back cast, and i just can’t do it.  hell, maybe you just have a special talent… wayno

Response:

I’ve seen a lot of people do it Wayne. But I agree, the leader is probably shot which exasperates the problem. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart     i think the problem lies with bad leader material.  leaders "age", and become absurdly brittle and weak, even in packaging.  the damn stuff has probably been on the shelf at wallyworld for five or six years.  go to a decent specialty shop and get new leader material.     otherwise, i think it’s your knots.  i have desperately tried to snap flies off on the back cast, and i just can’t do it.  hell, maybe you just have a special talent… wayno

Response:

It might be that the back cast is low enough to actually hit the water or the ground, then there’s no need for special talents to break off the fly. Most of the guys that I’ve helped with their casting technique had one common problem, their back cast was way too low. But for this problem to appear again and again, I would also guess that the leader is the problem. /Roger

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart     i think the problem lies with bad leader material.  leaders "age", and become absurdly brittle and weak, even in packaging.  the damn stuff has probably been on the shelf at wallyworld for five or six years.  go to a decent specialty shop and get new leader material.     otherwise, i think it’s your knots.  i have desperately tried to snap flies off on the back cast, and i just can’t do it.  hell, maybe you just have a special talent… wayno

Response:

I don’t know where you live in North Texas, but you might want to check out an event that the Fort Worth FlyFishers Club is involved with that will happen on Sept 21. It is called the Trinity FlyFest and it will include casting lessons. For more information go to WWW. FortWorth FlyFishers.com. The Dallas club does not have an event scheuled in the near future which includes fly casting lessons because our next event is our annual club auction on Sept.21. You might just t ask at the Dallas Orvis Store. There is usualy someone there that will give any customer some casting tips and demonstration  in their parking lot. It is a lot easier to work these kind of problems in person rather than on the net. Contact me if I can be any help. Big Dale  

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Question:

Have you done this walk up Hazel as an overnighter?  It has been my experience that what is a six hour walk with a fly rod is a whole different critter than hiking in with a backpack, tent, etc.  At any rate, I’m in if the sceduling can be worked out.  Any idea what the actual mileage is?

never done it…they wouldn’t let you fish up there FOR 25 YEARS!  why would i walk that far *not* to fish…  now that it’s open to fishing, i’m yearning to take a look at the water.  i’m thinking it’s 8-10 miles up to the walkers creek, proctor creek area based on my map. the cascade is about 13 miles… but maybe someone who’s a hiker and been in there can tell us –  and…the trail is a flat road, much easier walking than snowbird.  there are carts with big wheels…  can’t we do 8 miles in 6 hours? btw…i’m still wet-wading in october… neoprenes seem a bit much for carolina fall fishing. I agree about the neoprenes but my one experience fishing with you in October suggests that wading wet could be a bit iffy……

yeah, but that’s why we’ll be carryin the lightweight goretex <g.  it’s when you’re done fishin that the wetness and the evening chill gets you… the days are great, unless it rains. it’s o.k. if you’re naturally numb from the waist down

i can’t help it if you’re easily numbed… those of us with sturdy scrotum and "turtle" reflex find it invigorating… but for those of us who are of the neck up persuasion

…hmm, thought ee cummings described them as boston women… it would come down to a choice between walking on our hands or perhaps wearing lightweights.      :)

damn…if only i’d known what might have occurred if i’d gotten the lightweights instead of the socks… jeff (makin a note) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you done this walk up Hazel as an overnighter?  It has been my experience that what is a six hour walk with a fly rod is a whole different critter than hiking in with a backpack, tent, etc.  At any rate, I’m in if the sceduling can be worked out.  Any idea what the actual mileage is? never done it…they wouldn’t let you fish up there FOR 25 YEARS!  why would i walk that far *not* to fish…  now that it’s open to fishing, i’m yearning to take a look at the water.  i’m thinking it’s 8-10 miles up to the walkers creek, proctor creek area based on my map. the cascade is about 13 miles… but maybe someone who’s a hiker and been in there can tell us –  and…the trail is a flat road, much easier walking than snowbird.  there are carts with big wheels…  can’t we do 8 miles in 6 hours?

"Got Speed Bumps?"

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no speed bumps so far…but i’ve only been up about 3 miles.  i’ve been told wayno’s had the park rangers drive him up the road, so maybe he can describe upper hazel. i believe you could do it no problem.  didn’t you go up a ways when wayno hit his big rainbow? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Got Speed Bumps?"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you done this walk up Hazel as an overnighter?  It has been my experience that what is a six hour walk with a fly rod is a whole different critter than hiking in with a backpack, tent, etc.  At any rate, I’m in if the sceduling can be worked out.  Any idea what the actual mileage is? never done it…they wouldn’t let you fish up there FOR 25 YEARS!  why would i walk that far *not* to fish…  now that it’s open to fishing, i’m yearning to take a look at the water.  i’m thinking it’s 8-10 miles up to the walkers creek, proctor creek area based on my map. the cascade is about 13 miles… but maybe someone who’s a hiker and been in there can tell us –  and…the trail is a flat road, much easier walking than snowbird.  there are carts with big wheels…  can’t we do 8 miles in 6 hours?

Shit, Tripper can do eight miles in six hours on a flat road in a big wheel cart……um……well, if Petah is pushing it. btw…i’m still wet-wading in october… neoprenes seem a bit much for carolina fall fishing. I agree about the neoprenes but my one experience fishing with you in October suggests that wading wet could be a bit iffy…… yeah, but that’s why we’ll be carryin the lightweight goretex <g.  it’s when you’re done fishin that the wetness and the evening chill gets you… the days are great, unless it rains.

I LOVE rain…..it’s warmer than the creek! it’s o.k. if you’re naturally numb from the waist down i can’t help it if you’re easily numbed… those of us with sturdy scrotum and "turtle" reflex find it invigorating…

Uh…….remind me not to watch you bathe up there…..o.k.?      :( but for those of us who are of the neck up persuasion …hmm, thought ee cummings described them as boston women…

I’ll have to defer to mr. harrison vis mr. cummings…..they speak the same language. it would come down to a choice between walking on our hands or perhaps wearing lightweights.      :) damn…if only i’d known what might have occurred if i’d gotten the lightweights instead of the socks…

Oh yeah, they’re indispensable, as Mr. Tup so eloquently put it. jeff (makin a note)

Uh huh, about a fourth register E if mine ear doth not deceive me. Wolfgang who would recommend a good geographer to explain the nice distinction between flat and level.    :)

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On my topo map this looks to be a pretty ambitous trip. Approximately 13.5 miles and 2000 feet of elevation. Early in May my son and I walked up to the campsite at the confluence of Hazel and Sugar Fork. It’s about 5.6 miles by the trail and 425 feet vertically from the lake. Had a full pack with pasta and dehydrated meals for two days, tent, sleeping bag, thermarest, primus stove, waders, wading boots, rod, vest, etc. And one can of St. Louis’ best beer.  I figure the pack weighed at least 30 lbs. It seemed much heavier. The fishing apparatus added more weight (total = 40?) and hassle. Furthermore, I was pretty sadly out of shape. Having listed all those excuses, it took between four and five hours to make the trip. That included several stops along the way to admire the creek. You all have been on the trail before – it’s a gentle grade and fairly easy walk if you don’t try to take your entire net worth in equipment. But a 13 or 14 mile walk with full pack and fishing gear is a fairly major undertaking. Wet wading in Smoky mountain streams in October takes more fortitude than I have. I’m numb enough from the waist down already, and it gets worse every year. Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …well, this appears to be the beginnings of yet another fine idea. i suggest you take charge of it, establish some proposed dates, and we’ll set up a new thread to see what develops. if zimbo is still hereabouts, perhaps he’ll post the dates of his gathering – i’m gonna be in the smokies the week of oct 19-26th with rachel – the 21st is her birthday. i can probably manage a 3-day camping trip either before that week or at the latter part of that week, or i can take a 4 day weekend thursday-sunday at another time. the park service provides some carts we can use to roll supplies up the trail if anyone wants or needs to bring some special stuff. Have you done this walk up Hazel as an overnighter?  It has been my experience that what is a six hour walk with a fly rod is a whole different critter than hiking in with a backpack, tent, etc.  At any rate, I’m in if the sceduling can be worked out.  Any idea what the actual mileage is? btw…i’m still wet-wading in october… neoprenes seem a bit much for carolina fall fishing. I agree about the neoprenes but my one experience fishing with you in October suggests that wading wet could be a bit iffy……it’s o.k. if you’re naturally numb from the waist down but for those of us who are of the neck up persuasion it would come down to a choice between walking on our hands or perhaps wearing lightweights.      :) Wolfgang

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"Got Speed Bumps?" no speed bumps so far…but i’ve only been up about 3 miles.  i’ve been told wayno’s had the park rangers drive him up the road, so maybe he can describe upper hazel. i believe you could do it no problem.  didn’t you go up a ways when wayno hit his big rainbow?

I know we went past the "town", maybe a mile or two up the road from there. It wasn’t a hard hike up to wherever we ended up. otoh, we nearly had to have a certain Boy Lawyer airlifted out of there after he caught a WAY-too-big-for-Hazel-Creek rainbow… /daytripper (You think he had the Rangers "salt" the creek for ‘im, too?

Response:

…nothing like a week in graham county to confirm i’ve wasted the better part of my life down here in the crowded flatlands of coastal nc… a situation i hope to correct in the next year or two. anyway, it was an incredible week of fiSSSSHing 5 of my favorite streams in nc, S[******], S[nowbird], S[assafrass], S[anteetlah], and H[azel], briefly recounted as follows: Saturday – rachel and i arrived at the snowbird house, bought some groceries, and settled in… well, sorta.  i was busy getting the fishing stuff settled on the table, rachel did the practical stuff – unpacked clothes and groceries. just before dark (it didn’t get dark until after 9), i walked the 10 feet to the stream out back and fished the two runs that always yield a fish or two – yup, still happenin! two rainbows on an ehc…one was the typical 8 incher caught in the deeper cut of the main current where wolfgang snapped a picture or two of me in   an evening stupor last october; the other was a nice 12 inches or more, caught by "bowling" the fly downstream about 50 feet around the bend of a deeper, quiet pool. satisfied the week was properly started, i ambled outta the stream, back up the gentle bank to a well-prepared spaghetti dinner and a chilly beer. thus began my week’s adventure of solitary fishing in some of the best streams in the smokies  …         SUNDAY – fished S.[******], the stream that yielded those 3 big rainbows last october.  arrived around 9 am, parked in the same place as last year.  the road was a bit worse, but manageable.  this was my day of paying proper devotion and respect – so, after humbly thanking all the spirits and deities, and making a silent oath not to break that commandment about the lord’s name, a kinder, gentler, easier-goin jeff set out up the road to the spot wally and i stopped in our october frenzy, the soul-filling gift of zimbo’s 6′ bamboo rod & the abandoned socks of wolfgang at the ready for a full day in the stream. didn’t see or hear another person the entire day.  S[******]is at about 3000 feet elevation at this point, and it’s headwaters are near a bald which is above 5000 feet. getting to it requires a drive up a steep, narrow grade of dirt and rocks for a mile or so until the road becomes unmanageable with a vehicle… the upper stretch is a rutted, rocky path only 4-wheelers can traverse safely.   from the point i entered the stream, until the pool i quit, with the exception of one pocket, i either caught a fish or had one rise to the fly. except for several brookies, all were rainbows of the usual size with a few approaching or just at ten inches.   size 14 and 16 ehc and parachute adams never failed to attract a fish. after a while, i started playing around with various dry flies just to see what would happen – color didn’t matter, but the size did. though they’d come up and look at the #12 stimulator, i guess it just looked a bit too big to tangle with, or it was easier to distinguish as a phony bug…i don’t know. but switch off to a smaller fly and no problem.  THE HIGHLIGHT – near the close of the day, once the leader had gotten cut back from all the fly changing, as a lark i tied on a flashy green and black bugger i had acquired from a mail order outfit in england a few years ago. i was at one of the deeper pools with a nice froth of white water formed by the stream falling from the pool above. casually tossed the bugger into the froth, let it sink a bit, twitched it back towards me and, damn…what’s this…quite a different feel… jeezusfuckingchri…(ok, i confess… i never was too good at keeping that particular commandment)… it was an honest 12" brookie (spec)- the biggest wild nc brook trout i’ve ever caught! fat, heavy, and healthy looking. what a day!  fellas, seeing a 12" spec in nc is an experience akin to seein pj in a tuxedo dancin a waltz at the terpsichorean ball in raleigh. … unique, if ya get my drift. …i continued up a few more pools with the bugger, catching rainbows, until i pulled out around 5 pm, then walked up the road for 30 minutes or so just exploring a bit…yup, there’s still a lot of water left for the next trip. [cont.]

Response:

Marvelous TR, Jeff. Hope you don’t keep us waiting too long for the next installment in the series! I’m sitting here in sultry Missouri reading your TR and listening to a segment on CBS Sunday Morning about the rhododendrons blooming in the appalachians. In fact, they juxtaposed that segment with a segment about subway musicians in New York. My GPS tells me that it’s 430 miles to my favorite spot on Snowbird. But my bank account tells me the office is a hell of a lot closer. Congratulations on having a wife who puts up with your fishing!! Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …nothing like a week in graham county to confirm i’ve wasted the better part of my life down here in the crowded flatlands of coastal nc… a situation i hope to correct in the next year or two. anyway, it was an incredible week of fiSSSSHing 5 of my favorite streams in nc, S[******], S[nowbird], S[assafrass], S[anteetlah], and H[azel], briefly recounted as follows: Saturday – rachel and i arrived at the snowbird house, bought some groceries, and settled in… well, sorta.  i was busy getting the fishing stuff settled on the table, rachel did the practical stuff – unpacked clothes and groceries. just before dark (it didn’t get dark until after 9), i walked the 10 feet to the stream out back and fished the two runs that always yield a fish or two – yup, still happenin! two rainbows on an ehc…one was the typical 8 incher caught in the deeper cut of the main current where wolfgang snapped a picture or two of me in   an evening stupor last october; the other was a nice 12 inches or more, caught by "bowling" the fly downstream about 50 feet around the bend of a deeper, quiet pool. satisfied the week was properly started, i ambled outta the stream, back up the gentle bank to a well-prepared spaghetti dinner and a chilly beer. thus began my week’s adventure of solitary fishing in some of the best streams in the smokies  … SUNDAY – fished S.[******], the stream that yielded those 3 big rainbows last october.  arrived around 9 am, parked in the same place as last year.  the road was a bit worse, but manageable.  this was my day of paying proper devotion and respect – so, after humbly thanking all the spirits and deities, and making a silent oath not to break that commandment about the lord’s name, a kinder, gentler, easier-goin jeff set out up the road to the spot wally and i stopped in our october frenzy, the soul-filling gift of zimbo’s 6′ bamboo rod & the abandoned socks of wolfgang at the ready for a full day in the stream. didn’t see or hear another person the entire day.  S[******]is at about 3000 feet elevation at this point, and it’s headwaters are near a bald which is above 5000 feet. getting to it requires a drive up a steep, narrow grade of dirt and rocks for a mile or so until the road becomes unmanageable with a vehicle… the upper stretch is a rutted, rocky path only 4-wheelers can traverse safely.   from the point i entered the stream, until the pool i quit, with the exception of one pocket, i either caught a fish or had one rise to the fly. except for several brookies, all were rainbows of the usual size with a few approaching or just at ten inches.   size 14 and 16 ehc and parachute adams never failed to attract a fish. after a while, i started playing around with various dry flies just to see what would happen – color didn’t matter, but the size did. though they’d come up and look at the #12 stimulator, i guess it just looked a bit too big to tangle with, or it was easier to distinguish as a phony bug…i don’t know. but switch off to a smaller fly and no problem.  THE HIGHLIGHT – near the close of the day, once the leader had gotten cut back from all the fly changing, as a lark i tied on a flashy green and black bugger i had acquired from a mail order outfit in england a few years ago. i was at one of the deeper pools with a nice froth of white water formed by the stream falling from the pool above. casually tossed the bugger into the froth, let it sink a bit, twitched it back towards me and, damn…what’s this…quite a different feel… jeezusfuckingchri…(ok, i confess… i never was too good at keeping that particular commandment)… it was an honest 12" brookie (spec)- the biggest wild nc brook trout i’ve ever caught! fat, heavy, and healthy looking. what a day!  fellas, seeing a 12" spec in nc is an experience akin to seein pj in a tuxedo dancin a waltz at the terpsichorean ball in raleigh. … unique, if ya get my drift. …i continued up a few more pools with the bugger, catching rainbows, until i pulled out around 5 pm, then walked up the road for 30 minutes or so just exploring a bit…yup, there’s still a lot of water left for the next trip. [cont.]

Response:

… it was an honest 12" brookie (spec)- the biggest wild nc brook trout i’ve ever caught! fat, heavy, and healthy looking. what a day!

Not too shabby at all

Response:

…well, this appears to be the beginnings of yet another fine idea. i suggest you take charge of it, establish some proposed dates, and we’ll set up a new thread to see what develops. if zimbo is still hereabouts, perhaps he’ll post the dates of his gathering – i’m gonna be in the smokies the week of oct 19-26th with rachel – the 21st is her birthday. i can probably manage a 3-day camping trip either before that week or at the latter part of that week, or i can take a 4 day weekend thursday-sunday at another time. the park service provides some carts we can use to roll supplies up the trail if anyone wants or needs to bring some special stuff.

Have you done this walk up Hazel as an overnighter?  It has been my experience that what is a six hour walk with a fly rod is a whole different critter than hiking in with a backpack, tent, etc.  At any rate, I’m in if the sceduling can be worked out.  Any idea what the actual mileage is? btw…i’m still wet-wading in october… neoprenes seem a bit much for carolina fall fishing.

I agree about the neoprenes but my one experience fishing with you in October suggests that wading wet could be a bit iffy……it’s o.k. if you’re naturally numb from the waist down but for those of us who are of the neck up persuasion it would come down to a choice between walking on our hands or perhaps wearing lightweights.      :) Wolfgang

Response:

Naw – that coven is down close to Stecoah.  Sometimes it meets in Bryson City depending on which politician is in town. This is way the hell too far in the boondocks.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? i hear tell that there’s a unsavory rattlersnake worshippin’ coven up in those parts…. –waldo d;^)

Response:

Naw – that coven is down close to Stecoah.  Sometimes it meets in Bryson City depending on which politician is in town. This is way the hell too far in the boondocks.

naaaahh bob, yer thinkin’ ufduh dolly parton mandolin strummin’ coppahead group that meets at tooties every udduh toosday. weird group, dancin widda coppaheads to 9-5… weird stuff but well worth da show if ya can drop in on toosday evenins…. whatever da hell ya do…. don’t go into the kitchen….bad, really bad mojo. duh group way up on hazel, well, bone creek pickahs. days banjo and jug tootin’ fellahs…… meanest dirty rotten sob’s you’d ever wanna come across….. hell, ask wayno, he’ll tell ya  d;^) –waldo, workin’ way too late….

Response:

Hell, Waldo, I don’t know if you’re thinking of the last Snowbird ROFF clave in the second case, or a stockholders meeting here, in the first case, both of which I missed but both of which sound familiar based on reports from observers . . .

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Naw – that coven is down close to Stecoah.  Sometimes it meets in Bryson City depending on which politician is in town. This is way the hell too far in the boondocks. naaaahh bob, yer thinkin’ ufduh dolly parton mandolin strummin’ coppahead group that meets at tooties every udduh toosday. weird group, dancin widda coppaheads to 9-5… weird stuff but well worth da show if ya can drop in on toosday evenins…. whatever da hell ya do…. don’t go into the kitchen….bad, really bad mojo. duh group way up on hazel, well, bone creek pickahs. days banjo and jug tootin’ fellahs…… meanest dirty rotten sob’s you’d ever wanna come across….. hell, ask wayno, he’ll tell ya  d;^) –waldo, workin’ way too late….

Response:

Never one to flinch from doing my duty for God and Country. October would be a fine time – even late October. If we could tie it in with Zimbo’s soiree that would be great. I feel like I made a three-day trip up Hazel in 2 days early in May. A six-hour walk up and a five-hour walk down didn’t leave much fishing time in two days. I’d agree three days is the minimum unless you really groove on walking. Also, if one has to walk five miles while wearing neoprenes, it’s more comfortable in October than in May. And by late October the bears should be doing their final snacking before settling in for the winter! Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – as you’ve probably heard, they’ve opened portions of hazel that have been closed to all fishing for 25 years – as an experiment to see if the fisherman actually affects the brook trout population in any meaningful way.  i believe it is our duty to participate in this grand experiment … but, it will require at least 3 days.  the hike in will be 6 hours at least…  if there’s any interest, it’s time to start planning.  i don’t know who is going where in october – zimbo floated a blue ridge gathering, i’ll be in the smokies with rachel the week of oct. 20. anyway, let me know if you’ve got a preference as far as dates and we’ll see what develops. jeff Jeff – I’d like to join up on such an expedition if it was planned well in advance. It’s an all-day drive for me, like it probably is for you. I would make a several-day trip of it and combine two or three days on Hazel with some other fishing – maybe on the Tellico river downhill from McDaniel Bald or on one of the creeks in the Snowbird/Santeetlah area. Bob //snip// i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? jeff

Response:

…well, this appears to be the beginnings of yet another fine idea. i suggest you take charge of it, establish some proposed dates, and we’ll set up a new thread to see what develops. if zimbo is still hereabouts, perhaps he’ll post the dates of his gathering – i’m gonna be in the smokies the week of oct 19-26th with rachel – the 21st is her birthday. i can probably manage a 3-day camping trip either before that week or at the latter part of that week, or i can take a 4 day weekend thursday-sunday at another time. the park service provides some carts we can use to roll supplies up the trail if anyone wants or needs to bring some special stuff. btw…i’m still wet-wading in october… neoprenes seem a bit much for carolina fall fishing. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Never one to flinch from doing my duty for God and Country. October would be a fine time – even late October. If we could tie it in with Zimbo’s soiree that would be great. I feel like I made a three-day trip up Hazel in 2 days early in May. A six-hour walk up and a five-hour walk down didn’t leave much fishing time in two days. I’d agree three days is the minimum unless you really groove on walking. Also, if one has to walk five miles while wearing neoprenes, it’s more comfortable in October than in May. And by late October the bears should be doing their final snacking before settling in for the winter! Bob as you’ve probably heard, they’ve opened portions of hazel that have been closed to all fishing for 25 years – as an experiment to see if the fisherman actually affects the brook trout population in any meaningful way.  i believe it is our duty to participate in this grand experiment … but, it will require at least 3 days.  the hike in will be 6 hours at least…  if there’s any interest, it’s time to start planning.  i don’t know who is going where in october – zimbo floated a blue ridge gathering, i’ll be in the smokies with rachel the week of oct. 20. anyway, let me know if you’ve got a preference as far as dates and we’ll see what develops. jeff Jeff – I’d like to join up on such an expedition if it was planned well in advance. It’s an all-day drive for me, like it probably is for you. I would make a several-day trip of it and combine two or three days on Hazel with some other fishing – maybe on the Tellico river downhill from McDaniel Bald or on one of the creeks in the Snowbird/Santeetlah area. Bob //snip// i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? jeff

Response:

Good stuff Jeff. That certain Southern Style creeps in to all your writing. When you return from the HF you’ll be changed slightly bruce h

Response:

Good stuff Jeff. That certain Southern Style creeps in to all your writing. When you return from the HF you’ll be changed slightly

Yep, before you know it, you will be wearing big hats and cowboy boots, and have a three inch circle worn into your ass pocket by the Cope tin.  You will be driving a full- size American pickup truck with a gun rack and a Labrador retriever (or two) in back, and you won’t even unhitch the boat trailer to go to the grocery store.  Where, btw, you will be buying Rainier beer and beef, not chardonnay and green vegetables.  Your favorite rod will be a nine foot six or seven weight graphite, not the 6 foot bamboo.  Your fly vest will contain as many Woolly Buggers as anything else, and you will wear your waders into even the best restaurants. You will bitch about how the out-of-staters are ruining everything, even though you were one recently.  You will have NRA stickers on your truck, and will vote Republican religiously, even if the GOP candidate is a drooling idiot. The trout you catch will average 18 inches no matter how big they really were.  You will start conversations with "Cold enough for you?" "Hot enough for you?" "Seen any salmonflies yet?" or "Got your elk yet?" depending on the season. I could keep this up all day. Just remember to get some 130 gr. bullets for your .270, and eat the parsley, because it’s the only vegetable you’re getting. Kevin, part-time Montanan

Response:

Great, well written report Jeff damn…what’s this…quite a different feel… jeezusfuckingchri…(ok, i confess… i never was too good at keeping that particular commandment)… it was an honest 12" brookie (spec)- the biggest wild nc brook trout i’ve ever caught! fat, heavy, and healthy looking. what a day!  fellas, seeing a 12" spec in nc is an experience

Congrats, beautiful fish! It may be the best Brookie you ever catch in NC! Willi

Response:

When you return from the HF you’ll be changed slightly bruce h

… um…, uh oh. … not sure i catch yer drift there, pardner.   trust that ain’t wayno-speak…unless, of course, "bruiser" is the descriptive pseudonym for a henry’s fork working lady, in which case, i bruise quite easily.  <g however, just from looking at rw’s photos and some of the web sites for hf, i’m feeling a metamorphosis coming on already. looking forward to it all… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Congrats, beautiful fish! It may be the best Brookie you ever catch in NC!

thanks…easily the "best" so far, although the ones wolfgang and i made acquaintance with up at the middle falls pool last october were pretty spec-tacular. … still, i plan to keep hunting for that next best one as long as i’m upright and forward moving. i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? jeff

Response:

Kevin wrote.Yep, before you know it. snip. Priceless…Thanks Kevin. Big Dale

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Congrats, beautiful fish! It may be the best Brookie you ever catch in NC! thanks…easily the "best" so far, although the ones wolfgang and i made acquaintance with up at the middle falls pool last october were pretty spec-tacular. … still, i plan to keep hunting for that next best one as long as i’m upright and forward moving. i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? jeff

Does sound like a beautiful fish alright – I bet there’ll be a few more buggers and streamers in your future. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Jeff – I’d like to join up on such an expedition if it was planned well in advance. It’s an all-day drive for me, like it probably is for you. I would make a several-day trip of it and combine two or three days on Hazel with some other fishing – maybe on the Tellico river downhill from McDaniel Bald or on one of the creeks in the Snowbird/Santeetlah area. Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – //snip//  i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? jeff

Response:

 i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested?

i hear tell that there’s a unsavory rattlersnake worshippin’ coven up in those parts…. –waldo d;^)

Response:

as you’ve probably heard, they’ve opened portions of hazel that have been closed to all fishing for 25 years – as an experiment to see if the fisherman actually affects the brook trout population in any meaningful way.  i believe it is our duty to participate in this grand experiment … but, it will require at least 3 days.  the hike in will be 6 hours at least…  if there’s any interest, it’s time to start planning.  i don’t know who is going where in october – zimbo floated a blue ridge gathering, i’ll be in the smokies with rachel the week of oct. 20. anyway, let me know if you’ve got a preference as far as dates and we’ll see what develops. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff – I’d like to join up on such an expedition if it was planned well in advance. It’s an all-day drive for me, like it probably is for you. I would make a several-day trip of it and combine two or three days on Hazel with some other fishing – maybe on the Tellico river downhill from McDaniel Bald or on one of the creeks in the Snowbird/Santeetlah area. Bob //snip// i’m thinking – we need to hike and camp near the cascade falls on hazel creek…who knows what a placid soul might discover up there. anyone interested? jeff

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s the headline on a story in today’s Centre Deadly Times. Some details: The Penn’s Valley Conservation Association has begun installing deflectors, made of hemlock logs and limestone ballast, in the Creek  near Coburn. The deflectors measure 56 feet by 32 feet.  They will cover a stretch of stream  about 1000 feet long. No completion date was given. These types of stream improvement projects were popular twenty or thirty years ago. I thought they had become out of favor for a variety of reasons. I think we should mitigate damage than we have done to streams and rivers, but I have problems with the concept of putting in  man made objects to improve streams even if it makes the fish catching better. Are they still popular back East?

A couple of my favorite Back Eastern rivers are much more hospitable to the finned critters because TU erected wing dams and planted willows…

Response:

The only trout stream in Central Ohio was …’improved’ many years ago by farming. the stream, which was appropriately named the Mad River, meandered, twisted and turned for many miles. This habitually moving stretch of water was ‘channeled to make it flow more straight and not interfere with farming. Today, it reminds me of the concrete troughs of a fish hatchery. Local clubs and groups are forever trying to ‘improve’ the stream. Various damns and deflectors help restore some of the cover that was lost. ….there is no point to this post so don’t look for it…. john

Response:

These types of stream improvement projects were popular twenty or thirty years ago. I thought they had become out of favor for a variety of reasons. I think we should mitigate damage than we have done to streams and rivers, but I have problems with the concept of putting in  man made objects to improve streams even if it makes the fish catching better. Are they still popular back East? Willi

Some of the sections of Penns that I’ve been on, run pretty straight and flat, especially the section near Coburn.  If the Holy Water can tolerate a few log jams, I’m sure Penns can. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The only trout stream in Central Ohio was …’improved’ many years ago by farming. the stream, which was appropriately named the Mad River, meandered, twisted and turned for many miles. This habitually moving stretch of water was ‘channeled to make it flow more straight and not interfere with farming. Today, it reminds me of the concrete troughs of a fish hatchery. Local clubs and groups are forever trying to ‘improve’ the stream. Various damns and deflectors help restore some of the cover that was lost. ….there is no point to this post so don’t look for it…. john

john, john, john. How many times do we have to tell you: nullifying disclaimers go at the TOP of the post. Geeze… /daytripper (For the sake of good order ‘n’ stuff

Response:

john, john, john. How many times do we have to tell you: nullifying disclaimers go at the TOP of the post. Geeze… /daytripper (For the sake of good order ‘n’ stuff

Hell, you deny everything from the time you get up each day.  So what’s new?

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

john, john, john. How many times do we have to tell you: nullifying disclaimers go at the TOP of the post. Geeze… /daytripper (For the sake of good order ‘n’ stuff Hell, you deny everything from the time you get up each day.  So what’s new?

Shouldn’t you be ruining some ferrules for more soon-to-be-ex-customers? /daytripper (Thinking about Ginking? See www.ginkstinks.org)

Response:

…….Every old #12 we have here beats anything daytripper is strugglilng with.

Not sure that’s true.  It would appear that it’s damned near impossible to keep it lit. Wolfgang don’t bogart that stake my friend…..

Response:

  There’s a 72% chance that your problem is that you’re sending only about 5/6 of a fly rod to each customer.  No charge for this one….

ROTFLOL!!!!

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 Daytripper, I built over (OVER) 100 bamboo fly rods last year and that means over 130  very happy, happy customers.  You, on the other hand don’t know

100 fly rods for 130 customers. Jesus H. Christ, how many different people got #12? – — "Armchair warriors often fail, and we’ve been  poisoned by these fairy tales" -Don Henley —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7z2B4rpli/675/DERArbUAKDnIgvhJtyyFM7gHSF6y9MjtSORZgCfQcVW fXl0F8mo4RaW533IyCKfqzc= =ir2+ —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

Daytripper, I built over (OVER) 100 bamboo fly rods last year and that means over 130  very happy, happy customers. Being the astute mathematician I am, I’m in a position to help your business as a consultant here George.  There’s a 72% chance that your problem is that you’re sending only about 5/6 of a fly rod to each customer.  No charge for this one….

Being the man about bamboo town, 5/6th’s of anything I do beats any plastic job you’re using Jeff.  But that is alright.  At least you’re fishing ’something’ even if it is only half as nice as bamboo.  (still guessing 50/50  and still flipping that dime, huh?) Take care Jeff. Mr.G.

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

Do you want an old #12 Wolfgang?   Numberology is religeous truth.  Every old #12 we have here beats anything daytripper is strugglilng with.  Trust me.  You would be the 13th owner and proud to have one.  How should I label it now? hum???? #13 of #12? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Ah, so old #12 is now in the hands of its thirtieth happy customer! Well, ain’t that a wonderment! Wolfgang numerology sucks

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

Daytripper, I built over (OVER) 100 bamboo fly rods last year and that means over 130  very happy, happy customers.

Ah, so old #12 is now in the hands of its thirtieth happy customer! Well, ain’t that a wonderment! Wolfgang numerology sucks

Response:

Why in the world would they want to screw up a perfectly good fishing area. I read the article seems to me they will be screwing up Penns below Coburn with more silt and debris.    mike www.centredailytimes.com go to news

Response:

Daytripper, I built over (OVER) 100 bamboo fly rods last year and that means over 130  very happy, happy customers.

Being the astute mathematician I am, I’m in a position to help your business as a consultant here George.  There’s a 72% chance that your problem is that you’re sending only about 5/6 of a fly rod to each customer.  No charge for this one….

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Daytripper, I built over (OVER) 100 bamboo fly rods last year and that means over 130  very happy, happy customers.  You, on the other hand don’t know anything about bamboo fly rods  because you’ve proven that over and over again.  That I build a phenominal, high quality fly rod now seems to escape you.  So why don’t you just put it in your ear?

Fuck off, moron. Your rods are the joke of the industry – right behind your own visage. Everyone here knows the saga of #6, #11, and #12, to name a famous few. You raved about how fine those pieces of shite were, too, and tried to trash more than a few victims along the way who had the temerity to return them. Hell, #12 was an industry joke, returned by three different people before you finally snuck off and gave it away outright. btw, I have more than a few fine cane rods. Add them together and I could buy your single-wide right out from under you. None of them have your name on them. Coincidence? I don’t think so You want to play? You want me to have to beat you with the clue bat again? I got all the ammo I’ll ever need, and all of it is in your own words. Maybe roll out the entire Original Book of Gink, chapter by chapter? Should be great for bizness, eh? Go for it, Gehrkins. So stick all that where sun don’t shine, whacko. God knows you got plenty of room up there… hth? /daytripper

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Daytripper, I built over (OVER) 100 bamboo fly rods last year and that means over 130  very happy, happy customers.  You, on the other hand don’t know anything about bamboo fly rods  because you’ve proven that over and over again.  That I build a phenominal, high quality fly rod now seems to escape you.  So why don’t you just put it in your ear? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – john, john, john. How many times do we have to tell you: nullifying disclaimers go at the TOP of the post. Geeze… /daytripper (For the sake of good order ‘n’ stuff Hell, you deny everything from the time you get up each day.  So what’s new? Shouldn’t you be ruining some ferrules for more soon-to-be-ex-customers? /daytripper (Thinking about Ginking? See www.ginkstinks.org)

And regarding the above posting by yourself, let us just check that out and see who the hell wants to start something?  It better not be active, let me say that just for starters.

  george.vcf

1K Download

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That’s the headline on a story in today’s Centre Deadly Times. Some details: The Penn’s Valley Conservation Association has begun installing deflectors, made of hemlock logs and limestone ballast, in the Creek  near Coburn. The deflectors measure 56 feet by 32 feet.  They will cover a stretch of stream  about 1000 feet long. No completion date was given.

These types of stream improvement projects were popular twenty or thirty years ago. I thought they had become out of favor for a variety of reasons. I think we should mitigate damage than we have done to streams and rivers, but I have problems with the concept of putting in  man made objects to improve streams even if it makes the fish catching better. Are they still popular back East? Willi

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Vince,   I think this would be above the junction with Elk, a stretch which is stocked by the state. I may be wrong, keep us posted.                        Tom

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That’s the headline on a story in today’s Centre Deadly Times. Some details: The Penn’s Valley Conservation Association has begun installing deflectors, made of hemlock logs and limestone ballast, in the Creek  near Coburn. The deflectors measure 56 feet by 32 feet.  They will cover a stretch of stream  about 1000 feet long. No completion date was given. vince norris

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Question:

  And now, back to your regularly scheduled programmming….. bite me Warren!

Go smoke a whitefish! — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

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fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt.

My guess is that if we are thinking like a fish we would eat sticks and rocks. I keep finding them in the fish that I keep. Big Dale

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Excellent synopsis Peter.  These types of discussions were what first attracted me to and later hooked me on ROFF.  My thanks to you, Willi, et all for the thought provoking insights/explanations.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled programmming….. bite me Warren!

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I am a fairly new fly fisher and an even newer tier. I have been fortunate enough to have a few experienced hands tell me that I am far more picky about my flies than the fish. Also, worry about developing the tying skills and your flies will look more like the store flies as you get better. In the mean time, it’s pretty darn cool to catch a fish on something that you made by hand. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even during hatches, not all the fish will be keyed into the same features on a fly. With some, wings may be important, others how high or low the fly floats, others size, others sparseness, other "action", others color, other orientation etc. etc.  Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it, those that look for something wrong and if found will reject it, and those that just want something to eat. Individual fish have individual feeding habits and preferences. There is no magic fly. Being successful means finding a fly that appeals to the majority of fish and turns off few. Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish. Willi

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<snipped a whole bunch for the Grand Poohbah   Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending?

Willi, I can’t remember if you were there when this happened during the clave or not.  We were fishing and saw a fish swallow a bunch of moss and then spit it out.  Perhaps there was a morsel of food in that bunch of moss and the fish separated it and then spit the moss back out.  It could be that the fish sees the hook as debris to filter out from the food and takes the fly anyways.  Just a thought. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

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What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done.

Wolfgang, Like usual, I don’t know how to take what you say but did you mean the above? If so, I’d like to see it. Willi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple. Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving? It ain’t SUPPOSED to be easy!  Nevertheless, here’s a little tip: never try to get away with making two (or three) points look like one.

Well, thanks, but, basically, I was calling you fat…. A trout’s brain IS small and relatively simple.  We could go into all kinds of tedious detail about comparative neuroanatomy (and the literature is voluminous) but it’s late and I need to get to bed.

And so is the literature that says there is, or isn’t, a God or Gods, that Communism is the best thing since, well, others say it wasn’t, and with the advent of the Web, probably quite a bit claiming Elvis, JFK, and Marilyn Monroe are having a nightly GB at Bill Gates’ house. What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done.

Granted, we…well, ok, "we" implies the wrong thing, so – someone can likely get general info, like, "shine light, fish swims away" and "fish tries to eat this, but not that," but I’m dubious we can truly know what fish "think," perceive, or whatever you call it, i.e., knowing the fish "thinks" a particular thing is or isn’t, and more importantly, why.  For example, I’d run away from a group of people having a Beastie Boys marathon, but not because I’m scared of the people, music, or the Beastie Boys, but I don’t like them, either.  On the other hand, I might sit and listen with a group of gangbangers who happened to like, oh, say, Bobby Short, Bob Wills, or certain Jane’s Addiction cuts.   One reason I’m sure "we" haven’t discovered such information (past a certain superficial level, anyway) is because especially with things like fish, which leads to fishing, is that it would get exploited before the ink was dry on the reports.  I hate to sound cynical, but I think if "we" could truly and accurately figure out what makes fish "tick," or what they "think" (again, accurately is key), companies would be on it like, well, fish on scientifically-developed foolproof (the key) lures.  Moreover, even when the ability to vocally express how a creature is feeling is there, even that isn’t a completely accurate measure…look at women, for example…. We are all familiar with the adage that suggests success in fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt.

Yeah, and it’s always made me laugh…why the hell would I want to think like the thing I’m trying to outsmart and catch.  For example, if a lion thought like a Tommy, would another lion get confused and eat him, or even more odd, would he get confused and die of exhaustion trying to outrun himself?  Heck, maybe he’d just have a crisis of conscience and run off and become a vegan and try to convert the pride.  Soon, he’d be smoking clove cigarettes, getting arrested with Al Sharpton, and whining about Nike factories and under-sized limos. Next thing you know, he’d be hanging out with Paul McCartney, and Lord knows what else…well, actually, I think the Lord did know, which is why lions don’t flit about trying to think like Tommies…..they just catch ‘em and eat ‘em….. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Wolfgang

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As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple. Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving?

It ain’t SUPPOSED to be easy!  Nevertheless, here’s a little tip: never try to get away with making two (or three) points look like one. A trout’s brain IS small and relatively simple.  We could go into all kinds of tedious detail about comparative neuroanatomy (and the literature is voluminous) but it’s late and I need to get to bed. What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done. We are all familiar with the adage that suggests success in fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt. Wolfgang

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <Big Snip I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi I told my wife about this post and tried to get her to conduct an experiment, but she wouldn’t do it. All I wanted her to do was let me get the video camera and shoot video of her sniffing our Basset Hound’s butt and then giving me her perceptions. Among "other" things, she said I’d been on this news group way too long. <g

Post of the week, great image!! Willi

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[snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos

This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi

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First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.

   I believe this is often of major importance. When fishing with a dry fly, I often cast to spots I *know* hold fish, and I get no response because the fly is riding a little low in the water. After treating it with desiccant it will be riding on the very tips of the hackles; it just amazes me how this can trigger strikes from fish that weren’t the least bit interested in the same fly moments earlier.

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First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.    I believe this is often of major importance. When fishing with a dry fly, I often cast to spots I *know* hold fish, and I get no response because the fly is riding a little low in the water. After treating it with desiccant it will be riding on the very tips of the hackles; it just amazes me how this can trigger strikes from fish that weren’t the least bit interested in the same fly moments earlier.

(I noticed you use this technique on a fish that short struck the other day on the Big T) And sometimes the opposite is true, the fish will take a partly submerged fly after rejecting the same fly floating high and dry. This happened to me yesterday. Willi

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This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi

I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. A partially drowned fly may work if the fish is keyed on emerging or drowned insects. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play.

That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending? The point I’m trying to make is that when we use our vision to try and explain how a trout or any other animal uses their vision, I think that alot of the assumptions made are going to be erroneous. This is especially true if, like in the case of trout vision, there are demonstrative physical differences in vision components between that animal and ourselves. Also, vision is more than how the eye perceives something, it is how the brain interprets the signals that it receives from the eye.   I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi

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I’ll take dogs as an example, ….. ….. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous.

True, but no more erroneous than if we *didn’t* use our sense of smell to try to understand theirs.  ;) I agree with everything you say about our sense of vision necessarily being different from a trout’s, but it’s really the closest thing we have to work with and base our guesses on.  Otherwise we’re reduced to throwing up our hands and relying on "conclusions" drawn from what are really small, highly variable samples (our own personal experiences).  AND we’d have less to BS about. JR

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending?

[snip] As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple.  It can only process so many visual cues.  If we make this process overly complex, I think we make it more difficult than it need be.  I believe that a trout processes the visual cues that say "food" and ignores those that suggest otherwise (e.g. the hook.)  After all, a trout’s world is full of drifting debris.  It has to have a simple, yet quick way to differentiate between a small stick and a nymph, for example. If your fly has the necessary cues, the trout takes it, despite the big, ugly hook.  This differentiation process is probably learned through repetition – the more bugs of a certain type that pass by a trout, the more likely it will fixate on them and begin to feed.  It probably has to learn what is good to eat, every time a major hatch occurs – this explains why the early part of a hatch may not engender much of response. It may well perceive colour, light refraction, etc. differently than us, but there is only a few cues we need to get right.  This is one of the reasons why I don’t like to stray too much from the original materials in an old recipe.  Skues talks about how certain materials have a special quality in the water and appear more like the natural when presented in the trout’s world.  I think if you get the hackle and tail, size, and colour right, you’ll fool trout more often than not. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending? [snip] As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple.

Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving? It can only process so many visual cues.  If we make this process overly complex, I think we make it more difficult than it need be.  I believe that a trout processes the visual cues that say "food" and ignores those that suggest otherwise (e.g. the hook.)  After all, a trout’s world is full of drifting debris.  It has to have a simple, yet quick way to differentiate between a small stick and a nymph, for example. If your fly has the necessary cues, the trout takes it, despite the big, ugly hook.  

Maybe they just intend to eat what appears to be the bug and not what appears to be whatever the hook appears to be.  When one gets a club sandwich, one doesn’t think, "Hmm, this looks good, well, except for that frilly stick in it.  I wonder if I have to eat that, too?" so perhaps it simply looks like a fish’s frilly stick or parsley sprig or whatever, or maybe they see insects on or near actual sticks, and eat the bug and either not eat or spit out the stick – maybe they see a stick and a bug, and when they spit out the stick, to their surprise and your consternation, the whole thing goes.  Or maybe, just like most living creatures, including humans, close is good enough if you are hungry enough or the food looks good enough.  If simply looking odd or different prevented predation, we’d be up to our hat brims  in things like albinos, genetic appearance deformities (that had no health ramifications), etc. because they’d be no natural predators of such things (well, except man and a few other things), they’d gradually become more prevalent. This differentiation process is probably learned through repetition – the more bugs of a certain type that pass by a trout, the more likely it will fixate on them and begin to feed.  It probably has to learn what is good to eat, every time a major hatch occurs – this explains why the early part of a hatch may not engender much of response. It may well perceive colour, light refraction, etc. differently than us, but there is only a few cues we need to get right.  This is one of the reasons why I don’t like to stray too much from the original materials in an old recipe.  Skues talks about how certain materials have a special quality in the water and appear more like the natural when presented in the trout’s world.  I think if you get the hackle and tail, size, and colour right, you’ll fool trout more often than not.

If you look at writers of the beginnings of the "dry fly era of prominence" (say from about 1870 to Mary Orvis Marbury, etc., forward), you find that there are vast differences of opinion as to replication vs. stimulation vs. "tempting" vs. simple guessing vs. planned experimentation.  Many felt that "fooling" the fish by making them think the fly was a true natural was all but impossible, and the closer you tried to get, the more "unnatural" your imitator would appear.  Maybe it was a mirror of the Impressionists, but some seem to feel that "suggesters" were more effective than imitators.  FWIW, my view has always been (and admittedly, it is both acquired from others and self-discovery) that there is much more to it than accurate-to-us appearing imitators, but YMMV.  For example, how many have had beat-up, ratty, tattered old flies, lures, etc., that produced better than new, truly accurate imitators? As to the history of the subject, if anyone is interested, I have some pretty old volumes, and some do talk about this very subject, plus I’m sure there are many others with other works, so perhaps we can piece together a history of this aspect of the sport. TC, R

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<Big Snip I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi

I told my wife about this post and tried to get her to conduct an experiment, but she wouldn’t do it. All I wanted her to do was let me get the video camera and shoot video of her sniffing our Basset Hound’s butt and then giving me her perceptions. Among "other" things, she said I’d been on this news group way too long. <g

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Excellent synopsis Peter.  These types of discussions were what first attracted me to and later hooked me on ROFF.  My thanks to you, Willi, et all for the thought provoking insights/explanations. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a hackle dimpled surface film producing halos of light – a tail that also produces a dimpling along its length and the same light refraction – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos – a body that for the most part is in shadow – the solid outline of a dun’s wings – all of this seen against a bright sky background First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.  As she gets closer, the colour and wing start to become important.  A fish can focus on a fly less than an inch from its nose – its close range vision is excellent – so the rest of the details have to start to make sense, the wing, the body colour, the size, etc. Trout seem to take flies for a number of reasons – obviously hunger and it matches what she’s been eating for the last half hour, curiosity, aggression, and playfulness.  I mentioned in a much earlier post, being fooled by three little browns that raced around chasing Gray Foxes.  It’s not wise to take an anthropomorphic interpretation of their behaviour, however, had they simply been hungry, they could have sat in one of the many feeding lanes and sipped Gray Foxes all afternoon.  It’s difficult to interpret their pack chasing behaviour as anything other than playful competition.  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look. To sum it up, the fly should sit right, producing the right halos, plus it should cast a shadow of approximately the right size, and finally, it’s details should be right to pass the close range examination. This applies to picky fish in slower water condition; brookies in fast water tend to slash at anything that looks like food.  So in my neck of the woods, flies that will catch brookies on the cascade section of the Credit, will be a complete bust on the slow glides of the Grand. There’s too much variation o attempt generalize much further than this. (Much of the above wisdom, courtesy of various books by Lafontaine, Skues, et al.) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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<snipped interesting speculations of an experienced fishtricker  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look.

kinda like on penns creek when we were there…  the march browns had to quiver a bit and just right to interest most of those finicky browns …anything just floating motionless on the water generally wouldn’t be touched.  i saw dozens of fish nail the bug just as it was starting to take off from the surface, and several coming full-body out of the water like a salmon to grab the bug in the air.  that was one of those memory etchings i look forward to collecting more of…

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Even during hatches, not all the fish will be keyed into the same features on a fly. With some, wings may be important, others how high or low the fly floats, others size, others sparseness, other "action", others color, other orientation etc. etc.  Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it, those that look for something wrong and if found will reject it, and those that just want something to eat. Individual fish have individual feeding habits and preferences. There is no magic fly. Being successful means finding a fly that appeals to the majority of fish and turns off few. Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish. Willi

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Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it…

- "Hey, Jimmie, looks like we got a hotty floating by at three o’clock!" – "Woa, dude, check out the hackles on *that* one!" – "Hey, there, midge! Why doncha drift on over to *my* riffle, baby?" –Steve (if fish could talk)

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Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish.

Not only do we merely perceive color differently than the fish (probably), we probably also overestimate color and underestimate behavior of the bug. This idea is explored in "What The Trout Said" and "Dry Fly: New Angles".

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Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish.

And although it simply states the obvious, the fish views the fly from a completely different angle, and through a different medium, so even if they did see (eye construction- and placement-wise) in the same manner as people, their frame of reference is completely different. It’s unlikely that man and fish will ever see a fly the same, regardless of the difference in the eyes. Moreover, we can not know what differences would go ignored, which would be seen as different but "OK," and which were different and off-putting.  As a simple example, most people would recognize and accept Wendy’s square hamburger as just another burger variant and eat it if they wanted a burger (yeah, yeah, eyeball jokes, taste, etc., aside), but given a choice between a burger with, say, asparagus spears, raw oysters, and orange sherbet and a plain burger, most would likely choose the plain one (even if they’d eat all the items in other combinations).   But as Willi points out, fish seem to be like people in that they do have individual habits, and occasionally, just like kids drinking pickle juice over ice, a fish might try and eat something different.   Fish "dine" on what comes past or is within sight, they don’t seem to "plan" dinner – "Ooh, honey, doesn’t the Four Seasons sound good, and then, we can go by the Carlyle for drinks and a little Bobby…" or decide that the tacos at El Asadero sound better than the seafood at Costa Azul and head that way.  But they can sometimes be tempted by teasing them with something that looks "food-ish" enough AND different enough to tempt them into taking a chance, just like you do when the waiter suggests the entire tenderloin, rare, with Hollandaise and a large side of creamed spinach, or the dessert cart comes by with the Double Chocolate Drunken Fudge Cream Cake with Buttery-Sweet Ice Cream on top.  You know you shouldn’t, the better half is gonna bitch, but like a moth to a flame….or rather, a hog to a trough…. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Willi

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[snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a hackle dimpled surface film producing halos of light – a tail that also produces a dimpling along its length and the same light refraction – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos – a body that for the most part is in shadow – the solid outline of a dun’s wings – all of this seen against a bright sky background First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.  As she gets closer, the colour and wing start to become important.  A fish can focus on a fly less than an inch from its nose – its close range vision is excellent – so the rest of the details have to start to make sense, the wing, the body colour, the size, etc. Trout seem to take flies for a number of reasons – obviously hunger and it matches what she’s been eating for the last half hour, curiosity, aggression, and playfulness.  I mentioned in a much earlier post, being fooled by three little browns that raced around chasing Gray Foxes.  It’s not wise to take an anthropomorphic interpretation of their behaviour, however, had they simply been hungry, they could have sat in one of the many feeding lanes and sipped Gray Foxes all afternoon.  It’s difficult to interpret their pack chasing behaviour as anything other than playful competition.  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look.   To sum it up, the fly should sit right, producing the right halos, plus it should cast a shadow of approximately the right size, and finally, it’s details should be right to pass the close range examination. This applies to picky fish in slower water condition; brookies in fast water tend to slash at anything that looks like food.  So in my neck of the woods, flies that will catch brookies on the cascade section of the Credit, will be a complete bust on the slow glides of the Grand. There’s too much variation o attempt generalize much further than this. (Much of the above wisdom, courtesy of various books by Lafontaine, Skues, et al.) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

There is plenty of ice out there.  Here on the West Coast it occurs from now until spring.  Usually below 15,000. The leagality issue is the source of endless debate.  The big question is what constitutes "known icing conditions".  The opinions lately have been swinging toward forcast icing as being "known icing".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

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Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions. I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Either or both, I would guess. In Severe Weather Flying (which I strongly recommend) Dennis Newton suggests that the freezing band in stratiform cloud is rarely more than 3000 ft thick, and in convective cloud rarely more than 6000 ft thick.  Above that level, the temperature is low enough so that the concentration of supercooled water droplets is low (they’re already ice). The Airmet may not be able to place that actual freezing band accurately, so it covers a deeper band. I wouldn’t want to bet my life on the freezing band being only 3000 ft thick: the Mooney I fly is about the worst icing-test-aircraft that I can imagine, and I’m certainly not tempted to try to climb through 3000 ft of freezing cloud to find out.  But it’s a useful thing to have in your mind if you encounter icing. Julian Scarfe

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I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.

Some would say that’s overly conservative.  They’re wrong. Actually, in a relatively high performance single like yours, you might consider poking your nose in to take a look, provided you have good options for what to do if your nose gets frostbit. A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it.  And if you don’t have a high performance airplane, you have no business sticking your nose in even if you can get out quickly, because the ice will bog you down fast. And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range.

As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip.

Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron

No, you don’t.  I came damn close myself a couple of times, and both times I thought I could make the flight VFR (once above the clouds, once below them). Michael

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You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed.

Excellent recount of your inadvertent adventure, man. And scary as hell. Thanks for takin the time. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

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So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??

Something like that.  See, here’s the scenario.  MEA’s are 5000 ft. Tops are 4000, freezing level is 3000, and I can count on a climb rate of 1000+ fpm up through 7000.  Under those circumstances, I might be willing to give it a go, provided I could get back in to where I was going without having to climb to the MEA.  Remember the MSA around your departure airport, and think about how you would get back in if you stick your nose in and it gets frostbit. In a situation where icing was possible but wasn’t being reported, and the MOCA was below the freezing level, I might even be tempted to give it a shot going through the potential ice unless people were reporting icing.  The idea is that I have LORAN and GPS on board, and the GPS has a power source independent of the aircraft, and the odds that I’ll be forced to descend below the freezing level (to the MOCA, where I still won’t hit anything) AND the LORAN or electrical system goes out on me AND the GPS goes out on me are so long as not to be worth considering.  So push come to shove, I can descend. This is all a risk management game – how much has to go wrong before you run out of options?  If you postulate enough simultaneous failures, eventually you have nothing left to work with and you die. But the fact is, for two independednt things to fail on the same flight, you need to be having a really bad day, so I don’t worry about it.  Ice forming when it wasn’t forecast even though there is visible moisture and temperatures below freezing?  That’s not all that common, but not unexpected either.  If you don’t plan for that you’re a moron.  Electrical failure?  Same deal.  Both in one day?  Pretty damn remote.  Handheld GPS going at the same time? Man, it just wasn’t your day.  See what I’m getting at? The idea is this – if you have visible moisture and are in subfreezing conditions, ice can form.  If all your outs depend on ice not forming somewhere under those conditions, you’re kidding yourself.  You need an out that involves either getting to where it’s above freezing or getting to where there is no visible moisture, and getting there QUICKLY. In general, if you’re on the East or West coast in winter, or in the mountains any time of year, and you have a need to fly IFR (meaning the weather won’t let you get there VFR) then you need deice.  Or you can take your chances.  Sure, there are days that are exceptions, but that’s the general rule. I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast.

Well, how far do your abilities stretch?  This is what I mean by being where you can still climb 500 fpm.  Face it, tops are not very likely to rise more than 500 fpm.  Also, if you can still do 500 fpm where you are, odds are you can go another 5000 ft up with little trouble.  The tops are not likely to go that much higher everywhere at once.  A lightly loaded C-182 should still be doing 500 fpm up at 7000 ft. I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever.

If the haze is thick enough to reduce the vis to 1 sm, well, maybe. That takes A LOT of moisture, maybe enough that it might start to come out as ice.  But I’ve yet to see visibility that poor without ceilings so low as to make going under anywhere but wide-open Midwest (and maybe even not there anymore, what with all the towers going up) way too scary even for me. Michael

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Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions.

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions.   I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

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Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react,

Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours. Thanks for your observations! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

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Actual ice is not rare.  You will find ice in virtually every cloud below 0C on the West Coast.  There are plenty of places with ice-free clouds around 0C but they are generally not near the coast. Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

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A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??  I remember my first solo IMC.  I plunged into the clouds on climbout, expection to be IMC all the way to my destination, only to pop out on top within 30 seconds.  (not in winter of course)  What a beautiful sight! And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself.

I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast. Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can.

I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever. … Aaron

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I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right?

For the legal aspects I recommend http://www.avweb.com/articles/icingb/index.html But then I’ve very rarely paid much attention to the FARs myself. Paul Bertorelli’s article in November’s IFR is also well worth a read.  It sent shivers down my spine. I have that T-shirt… Julian Scarfe

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I got "page could not be found" on the sites you mentioned, but I think they are here now. http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/vvice.html and http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/nnice.html I also like http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/integrated/index.html and http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/ nice cloud tops graphs and icing reports and "ice at your intended altitude". Also the ADDS java pireps and airmets at http://adds.awc-kc.noaa.gov/projects/adds/index.html also look under the ADDS satellite icon and do the "forecast clouds" thing for your altitude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours.

The scary part is that I was a low time VFR-only pilot when I was rapidly disabused of my misconceptions.  Story follows. It was a winter day in Inidiana, and I wanted to fly.  My girlfriend wanted to eat.  I convinced her that it would be fun to go to Rochester (IN) where there was a nice restaurant right across the street from the airport.  The weather was 8000OVC and 10 mile vis – good VFR by anyone’s estimation.  When I got my briefing the briefer warned me about icing in clouds.  I pointed out that I was a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane and not planning to be in any clouds.  He told me I’d be fine. Now icing is usually most severe at temperatures above zero – the air in subzero clouds is usually too dry for any significant icing to occur.  The bases were at 8000 ft, and the ground temperatures were subfreezing.  This SHOULD have clued me in about the inversion, but I was a low time VFR-only pilot and missed the cue.  (For our European readers, I refer to zero F, which is about -18C) The Tomahawk I rented had the 125 hp engine.  The advantage was that in the cool winter air, the bigger engine was just the ticket to get us to a comfortable cruising altitude quickly.  The disadvantage was that at full power it was a thirsty beast, and for W&B reasons I elected to depart with a less than full load of fuel.  I estimated that I had about 3 hours, and the round trip would take about 1.5 hours at the power settings I would be using.  That seemed like a comfortable safety margin for day-VFR flying. The trip out and the lunch were uneventful, I hit my chekpoints perfectly, and lunch was good.  The trip back started out just fine.  Then I flew into a light rain shower. It was very light, and I could see right through it, so I really did not realize anything was wrong until I was in it.  Then I noticed (and this all happened in a matter of seconds) that the horizon was going away.  No, it was not a case of inadvertent VFR-into-IMC.  There was a layer of clear ice building on my windshield.  I made an immediate turn out of the shower.  I expect my total time in the rain was only about a minute.  But by the time I was out of it, I was at full throttle, only a little above Vy, and was gaining MAYBE 50-100 ft/min.  I also could not see through my windshield because it, like the wings, was carrying a load of clear ice.  Also, at full throttle, I now had less than an hour of fuel. I was lucky and I kept my head.  I got help from ATC, the ice eventually sublimated off (but I had a plan that would, I think, have worked even with the ice – I was getting vectors to the 10,000+ ft runway at Grissom AFB), and I made an uneventful landing with about 30 minutes of fuel in my tanks.  Had I crashed, no doubt I would have gotten a 90 for flying in known icing conditions. Thanks for your observations!

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed. Here’s another observation – weather is the most complex and open-ended area of pilot knowledge.  The amount of weather knowledge that the average pilot has when he is given a ticket is pretty minimal.  Unsurprisingly, it is also the major player in airplane crashes. Michael

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There is nothing in Part 91 that specifically addresses flight in icing conditions (ignoring, of course, 91.527 which does not apply to most newsgroupies). The legal problem arises from 91.9, which refers to restrictions in the manual for the aircraft. I think common sense is a wonderful substitute for regulation, however. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly. If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

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Two sites that you can check out for unofficial guidance (they are experimental) are www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/nnice.html and www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/vvice. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.  And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

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1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR?

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles)

It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

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NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

You expect us to trust your judgement when you willingly flew a Traumahawk ? Kidding. Agreed with everything you said. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

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I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice.

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Here’s about the extent of my cloud physics… You never *know* that you’re not going to get freezing rain, but without an inversion it’s unlikely.  If precip is forming above the freezing level it’s usually as ice.  As it falls into warmer temperatures below the freezing level it melts.  Neither are necessarily problems, over and above what you’d expecting the same cloud without the precip; the formation of precip above the freezing level can actually be a good sign, as it may be a sign that the cloud is glaciating (turning from supercooled liquid drops into ice particles). The danger comes where precipitation falls from warmer temperatures above as rain into a sub-zero layer at lower levels.  That’s freezing rain.  In my part of the world (UK), it’s an infrequent scenario, but it certainly can happen. In the mid-US, where there’s less water around to keep the lower levels warm in winter, it’s probably a more frequent occurrence. Precipitation does, however, indicate that the cloud tops are higher than they otherwise would be, if it’s convective.  In my limited experience some of the worst icing conditions are the tops of building cumulus which have not yet started producing much precip. Julian Scarfe

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Thanks. This is helpful. -pw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

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Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly.   If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

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I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough.

It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right?

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s

ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

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I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. For example 2000′ overcast, 6 degrees C on the ground, will usually be above freezing right up to the cloud deck. In the clouds, it is freezing. Tops are high, say 10000AGL. Fairly common actually. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

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I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

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Question:

Hey, Sounds like you’ve found a niche.  I could recommend a couple of fly shops that I know quite well from my fishing experience.  I am not sure on the business details, but i’m a finance major and a quick learner.  I’ve grown up in Miami and fishing is my lifeline.   Write Back and tell me more maybe i can help TarponRoto

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 We are tying flies in Thailand ! And we are looking for a serious distributor of our flies : we have been tying flies since 1949(and are the first company to use CDC feathers for fly tying) We are using exclusivelly Daiichi Hooks… wich we can sell at arr. 30 $ per thousand. We have also CDC at 350 to 450 $ per lbs. We have experienced tiers who use to work for Umpqua before joining our company ( We do not intend to copy Umpqua flies) Our requirements : 500 to 1,000 dozens orders ! happy to find out good tyiers who can set up an exclusive American collection our fax : 66.53.260.546…or E mail

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We are tying flies in Thailand !… there is a good reason to that… and even more than one !….. -We have got the Daiichi hooks at a very good price… we can sell them at 30 $ per thousand – We have experienced fly tiers… who worked with Umpqua before joining us ! -We do have all the CDC we want … and we sell it at 350 to 350 $ per lbs. We are looking for a serious distributor, we can work on a package price basis …arr. 6$ per doz. We also want to find out good fly tiers who could create with us an American Collection Christian  ION

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Question:

I will be relocating to the Balt. area in July, probably NW of the city. Does anyone know how the fishing is in that area? Is there a TU group there? Also could use some info. on places to live. The only thing I’m locked into is the Balt. area, so I’m flexable as to where I can move. Preferably somewhere that has a great trout stream in my backyard! Thanks

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I will be relocating to the Balt. area in July, probably NW of the city. Does anyone know how the fishing is in that area? Is there a TU group there? Also could use some info. on places to live. The only thing I’m locked into is the Balt. area, so I’m flexable as to where I can move. Preferably somewhere that has a great trout stream in my backyard!

I attended my first meeting of the Gaithersburg, Md Chapter of TU last night. The guest speaker was a Professional Fly Casting Instructor whoes home waters are the Patapsco River which emptys into Baltimore Habor. He lives in Ellicott City, MD (on the Patapsco) and seemed very knowledgable. His name is Philip Krista (410-461-3007). — Alvin E. Crane 512 Suffield Drive Gaithersburg, MD 20878-2679 Voice: 301-208-8114  Fax: 301-208-8681

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The Patapsco above Ellicott City (more specifically RT. 40 bridge to the dam at Daniels) is a ball to fish for smallmouths and redeyes.  It’s a small stream, easy to wade and full of fish.  Favorite stretch?  The 100 yard stretch below the island at the steel bridge at Old Frederick Rd.   The stream bed is full of junk tires, and there’s a bass in the middle of every one.  Yellow marabou muddler minnows, #6 or 8.  Don’t forget the Potomac River, either.  It’s within an hour of Baltimore, and great to float or wade.  

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Question:

The original remark may be humorous to a man, but not to many of the women who may be exploring fly fishing on the internet. This type of attitude and mind set on the stream or anywhere else is not always comfortable to everyone.

I dont’s intend to speak for everyone nor to make everyone comfortable.  All I know is that I only read one response (yours) that took offense at my little joke.  I know that there are quite a few women that read this group and none of them seemed to take offense at it either.  I did, however, see at least one response from a woman that takes offense that the industry seems intent on selling equipment "designed" specifically for women.  I contend that trying to turn flyfishing into a non-gender neutral sport is more damaging then my little joke could ever be.  I’d also like to believe that a sense of humor is a gender neutral attribute as well. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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The original remark may be humorous to a man, but not to many of the women who may be exploring fly fishing on the internet. This type of attitude and mind set on the stream or anywhere else is not always comfortable to everyone.

Uh Oh, someone’s going to save us all from the evils of politically incorrectness.  Lighten up. Jerry Cobb Nashville, TN

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Lighten up?…NO I DON’T THINK SO….saying something like tits on the grips is not funny, it’s not mature, and it doesn’t belong here.

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Seems to be any rod that can be taken apart has a male AND a female end!

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 guess some women just, want to be "Fashion Barbie"…

I’d like to point out that women have been less than pleased with the manufacturers who have tried to make them into "Fashion Barbie."   It has to be the most negative comments I’ve hear at women’s flyfishing club meeting.  Most, being conservationists, are into greens and browns and wouldn’t be caught dead in pink or purple on a stream.

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You ought to see what has happened to the diving equipment industry. All these wild colors for wet suits, fins, masks, snorkles, tanks, regulators, knives, gauges, bc’s. You’re supposed to be color co- ordinated for the fish! An then you go down…..guess what happens to all those colors at 80 feet? Yup, unless you have a strobe flash on all that fancy equipment, it all looks the same.  :) What you are seeing in ffing equipment is the same thing except it doesn’t go away when it goes into the woods. Bees and yellow- jackets do like yellow and pink, though. :OOO– Bill Fashion plate of leftover GI olive drab equipment…..

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The original remark may be humorous to a man, but not to many of the women who may be exploring fly fishing on the internet. This type of attitude and mind set on the stream or anywhere else is not always comfortable to everyone.

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Your remark regarding women’s rods possibly having breasts is rather ignorant…one would like to believe that even you would see that there is no place for that sort of comment in the fly fishing community. Good grief, are you suggesting that the "fly fishing community" is humorless? You know, now that I consider a good protion of the posts

Sexism, bigotry, and general boorishness is NOT considered humor in a public place.  This is a public forum, not the locker room.  Some humor will always be appropriate in the locker room and nowhere else.  It might serve some of you well to learn when and where such humor is appropriate. —— Mike Tucker-  The Virtual Flyshop Web: http://www.flyshop.com Phone: 970/225-6445

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The largest diameter grip I ever made on a fly rod was for a woman. The lady in question had tendonitus (sp?) in her hand and the small diameter grips on her factory made rods made it much worse. After using the rod I built her, she came back and had me replace the grips on all of her rods. Trying to generalize by gender is, IMNSHO, Bullsh*t. — Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com./ "I’m the boss,so WHATEVER I say is OK"

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Your remark regarding women’s rods possibly having breasts is rather ignorant…one would like to believe that even you would see that there is no place for that sort of comment in the fly fishing community.

Oh give me a break.  It was a joke, actually one I stole from George Carlin from his observation in describing a brand of womens cigarettes. I agree with the other person that mentioned that creating a flyrod for women is just a bit insulting.  Flyfishing is as a gender neutral sport as you can get and I don’t understand why people are trying to turn it into something otherwise.  Actually, I do.  Equipment manufacturers are just trying to sell more merchandise.  Women step into their waders the same way I do and can fart around on the stream as well as the next guy. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like hype to me…a little sand paper will make the grip smaller…I can almost live with the mauve vest, and the burgandy waders, but this idea that fishing has to be *marketed* to women seems like an insult to women to me.  When Orvis says "here you go women, a flyrod just for you", they sound as if they are saying all our other rods are for men and not for you. It’s a nothing but an insulting gimmick in my mind DAMN RIGHT, Craig.. All Orvis did was put on a smaller grip..Like ALL women have little hands (like Frenchmen;)). I don’t think so!!!! If I can handle a SAGE 9′8Wt .. and 7+" of real man;).. like most REAL outdoors women can.. and have done for years…It is down right insulting! It’s like Walker says,"A cash flow runs through it". By the way, I have brown waders and a green vest, I look like a cute little tree on the stream,(stealth…it’s an Art!); not like "Barney". I guess some women just, want to be "Fashion Barbie"…

Who knows.  Maybe there will be a market for "Catskill Barbie" and "Catskill Ken". I personally want to catch fish..that’s why it’s called fishing….that’s why I’m out there, and none of my equipment has a cute little white "O" on it!! ….and NO,John F. the rods don’t have little breasts on them..the grips are still the basic "penis" shape, they have always been… Tickles, &"Bear "hugs for Charley

And as someone pointed out awhile back,  "queer" flyfishers like to hold the rod with the other hand because it feels like someone else is holding it. In flyfishing size doesn’t matter. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Your remark regarding women’s rods possibly having breasts is rather ignorant…one would like to believe that even you would see that there is no place for that sort of comment in the fly fishing community.

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Sounds like hype to me…a little sand paper will make the grip smaller…I can almost live with the mauve vest, and the burgandy waders, but this idea that fishing has to be *marketed* to women seems like an insult to women to me.  When Orvis says "here you go women, a flyrod just for you", they sound as if they are saying all our other rods are for men and not for you. It’s a nothing but an insulting gimmick in my mind

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Your remark regarding women’s rods possibly having breasts is rather ignorant…one would like to believe that even you would see that there is no place for that sort of comment in the fly fishing community.

Good grief, are you suggesting that the "fly fishing community" is humorless? You know, now that I consider a good protion of the posts to this group you may be right. It seems that the computerized fly fisherman spending time on this group are endowed with an excess of selfimportance and no fun whatsoever. How about we all take a giant step back and a look at the big picture. We are really just a small, insignificant piece of that picture.  Just enjoy you days astream and not make it into more than it is – fishing.

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Sounds like hype to me…a little sand paper will make the grip smaller…I can almost live with the mauve vest, and the burgandy waders, but this idea that fishing has to be *marketed* to women seems like an insult to women to me.  When Orvis says "here you go women, a flyrod just for you", they sound as if they are saying all our other rods are for men and not for you. It’s a nothing but an insulting gimmick in my mind

DAMN RIGHT, Craig.. All Orvis did was put on a smaller grip..Like ALL women have little hands (like Frenchmen;)). I don’t think so!!!! If I can handle a SAGE 9′8Wt .. and 7+" of real man;).. like most REAL outdoors women can.. and have done for years…It is down right insulting! It’s like Walker says,"A cash flow runs through it". By the way, I have brown waders and a green vest, I look like a cute little tree on the stream,(stealth…it’s an Art!); not like "Barney". I guess some women just, want to be "Fashion Barbie"…I personally want to catch fish..that’s why it’s called fishing….that’s why I’m out there, and none of my equipment has a cute little white "O" on it!! ….and NO,John F. the rods don’t have little breasts on them..the grips are still the basic "penis" shape, they have always been… Tickles, &"Bear "hugs for Charley …..N.

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.Your remark regarding women’s rods possibly having breasts is rather ignorant…one would like to believe that even you would see that there is no place for that sort of comment in the fly fishing community.

First Day being a P.C. Cop in Owl Creek…Huh? Honey, if you think John’s comment was ignorant..maybe you should haul your ass over to R.O.F.F.PC ONLY!!! or R.O.F.F.H. (humorless);…  (Tim, these weren’t on your list…please add.) Some of us aren’t PC on the P.C., but don’t worry, after we die, we will burn in Hell….Remember, life’s a bitch, and 7X tippet breaks….. Tickles;) …N.  

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(PWullenweb) writes: A few brands offer a women’s version (e.g. Orvis’ Mary Orvis Marbury), but I’m not sure if there is a significant or logical reason to go with those other than the lighter weight.

Th only difference between the Orvis "MOM" rod and the Orvis "Trout" rod is the handle.  Both are 8 ft. 6 wt. fullflex rods made out of the same blank.  The MOM rod has a handle that has been turned down for smaller hands.   You would be best served by casting the appropriate rods for the conditions you will fish until you find one you like, and if you want a smaller handle on it, any custom rod maker can turn the handle smaller for just a few $.  Size and weight is not a problem. All three of my kids started with 8 1/2 to 9  foot rods when they were between 9 and 11 years old.                                                            Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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Hi Pluck, The ‘womens rod’ is a silly idea. I don’t believe that a rods purpose or application changes with gender. The rods purpose is to cast a line and play a fish. Seems as silly as a ’soft periwinkle’ fishing vest. My ideas on rods are governed by the fact that I build bamboo but for trout a 7 1/2 ft 4 or 5 in a fast action is a good place to start. For smallmouth bass I woul choose an 8ft parabolic action rod for a  5/6 weight. Good fishing, A.J. Thramer

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I’m new to fly fishing and am looking to buy a rod.  A few brands offer a women’s version (e.g. Orvis’ Mary Orvis Marbury), but I’m not sure if there is a significant or logical reason to go with those other than the lighter weight.  I’d like to make this rod somewhat of an "all arounder", at least for the present.  Most of the time I’ll be on a small upstate NY lake, fishing from shore or in a boat for panfish, trout, as well as smallmouth and largemouth bass.  I’d like though to be able to take this rod to fish in some nearby streams.  Info on length, line weight and/or model would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance. Puck Wullenweber Ithaca, NY

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Pluck, Women can fly fish better then men and its not the rod!! I suggest a week vacation in July, Aug. or Sept at the Hawley MT. Ranch, where you can Fly Fish, ride horese,hike or just read a book, Its just 25 miles north of Yellowstone Park.   We do a lot of things other than fishing. Just ask!!! BBlewett

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I’m new to fly fishing and am looking to buy a rod.  A few brands offer a women’s version (e.g. Orvis’ Mary Orvis Marbury), but I’m not sure if there is a significant or logical reason to go with those other than the lighter weight.  I’d like to make this rod somewhat of an "all arounder", at least for the present.  Most of the time I’ll be on a small upstate NY lake, fishing from shore or in a boat for panfish, trout, as well as smallmouth and largemouth bass.  I’d like though to be able to take this rod to fish in some nearby streams.  Info on length, line weight and/or model would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance. Puck Wullenweber Ithaca, NY

I think lighter weight is one critical factor, the other being the size of the grip. Rods not designed for women may have grips that are larger than you are comfortable with (depending of course on whether you have large hands.) If you can find a comfortable grip you can use it – most quality rods are pretty light anyways.

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The possible difference with woman’s rods would be in the grip.  Possibly smaller than normal.  I would suspect that it is generally hype and marketing.  Try both and let me know.   For suggestions for a rod, I would suggest a 5 or 6 weight.  You are asking a lot for a rod to do all you want it to do and still be fun.   I lean towards the 5wt for the fun factor with trout and panfish.  You would have to use small poppers & deerhair bugs with the 5 wt due to the wind resistance.  Also, make sure the rod is 9′. If your starting out you’ll ask for 1 rod to do it all.  After a few years thought, you’ll own about 4 rods (trust me, I’ve been there)!

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I’m new to fly fishing and am looking to buy a rod.  A few brands offer a women’s version (e.g. Orvis’ Mary Orvis Marbury), but I’m not sure if there is a significant or logical reason to go with those other than the lighter weight.

<snip Hi, My recommendation would be for you to locate a reputable local dealer and cast as many rods as possible in your price range. The rod that ends up working the best for you may or may not be a women’s version. I think it’s much more important how the fly rod works than what it says on the label. I hope this helps,   Alan.   Alan Barnard   Kiene’s Fly Shop   Sacramento, California   WWW Fly Tyer   http://www.ns.net/~barnard

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Pluck, Women can fly fish better then men and its not the rod!! I suggest a week vacation in July, Aug. or Sept at the Hawley MT. Ranch, where you can Fly Fish, ride horese,hike or just read a book, Its just 25 miles north of Yellowstone Park.   We do a lot of things other than fishing. Just ask!!!

Womens fly rods?  What, do they have little breasts on them or something? Just to clarify a couple of things.  The name was "Puck", not "Pluck". Since I also live in Ithaca I know that we can flyfish (a five minute walk for me to the nearest stream from my front door), ride horses (there’s a B&B place about 1000′ down the road of me that is a horse ranch), hike (across my driveway and 100′ in the other direction from the B&B are trailheads which go into a wildlife reserve, and I can read a book just about anywhere.  I’ll let you sleep on my couch for half of what your ranch charges. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Where , praytell, is the Museum, as I would love to take a daytrip to it.  Thanks

The American Museum of Fly Fishing P.O. Box 42 Manchester, Vermont 05254 USA Easy to find in the center of town, on the main road (Route 7?), at the corner of Seminary Avenue.  Phone (802) 362-3300 for more info.  There is currently an exhibition of paintings by T.A. Daly in the gallery;  the exhibition alone should make the trip worthwhile. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The American Museum of Flyfishing, in Vermont, publishes "The American Flyfisher", a magazine devoted to the history of the sport.   Where , praytell, is the Museum, as I would love to take a daytrip to it.  Thanks The museum is right near the equinox hotel, on historic Rt something-or-other in Manchester (I think).  Its on the road leading to Orvis Scott

Yeah it’s on route 7 in Manchester…as you head away from town it’s on the right just before you get to the Equinox. Paul DiConza NY Capital District Angler

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       The American Museum of Flyfishing, in Vermont, publishes "The American Flyfisher", a magazine devoted to the history of the sport.   Where , praytell, is the Museum, as I would love to take a daytrip to it.  Thanks

The museum is right near the equinox hotel, on historic Rt something-or-other in Manchester (I think).  Its on the road leading to Orvis Scott

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 Perhaps a good book would put me in the right direction. Izaac Walton, The Complete Angler. (any edition)

        The first edition didn’t contain John Cotton’s appendix on fishing with flies. That first happened in the second edition.

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 Perhaps a good book would put me in the right direction.

Izaac Walton, The Complete Angler. (any edition)

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   The American Museum of Flyfishing, in Vermont, publishes "The American Flyfisher", a magazine devoted to the history of the sport.  

Where , praytell, is the Museum, as I would love to take a daytrip to it.  Thanks

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Does anyone know when  and where the art of fly fishing began? If you could tell me I would appreciate it very much. A brief history would be great. Perhaps a good book would put me in the right direction. Thanks

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Does anyone know when  and where the art of fly fishing began? If you

There are several histories by Trench, Hills, etc. that usually cite a Roman Empire report by someone called Aelian about people fishing in Macedonia with red hackle flies.  The sort of fly fishing we know dates from at least the 17th century (2nd edition of Izaak Walton’s book, with additions on fly fishing by Charles Cotton) and an older English manuscript gives a dozen fly patterns from an earlier century. Fly fishing appears to have been the first widely used method of fishing with an artificial lure, as distinct from live bait.  Both bait and fly fishing depended much on the invention of suitable metal fish hooks.  Some N.American Indians used bone or other non-metal hooks, with feathers or hair attached. —  |          Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Rd., Carlsbad         |  |        Springs, Ont., Canada K0A 1K0; tel: (613) 822-0734       |  |  "What I’ve always liked about science is its independence from |  |  authority"–Ontario Science Centre (name on file) 10 July 1981 |

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on the history of ff: The earliest record of ff in English is a The Treatise of Fishing with an Angle, attributed to Dame Juliana Berners (though by now she has been almost proven not to have written it).  It was appended to The Book of Saint Albans, 1496.  In 1557 (I think), Samuel Williams wrote a book in dialogue form, which gave Izaak Walton the idea and much material for his Complete Angler (1653) (there was no concept of plagiarism in those times).         In the 1500’s, there were also books published in Spain (Tradico de Pesca, I believe), and in France, and these were efforts independent from those in the British Isles.           Since then, there have been more books published on fishing in general and flyfishing in particular than on any other sport, at least 4000.         The American Museum of Flyfishing, in Vermont, publishes "The American Flyfisher", a magazine devoted to the history of the sport.  You get 4 issues of it a year when you become a member of the Museum.                                                   Kin

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        I am interested in starting up my own guide service to those people in Japan who enjoy fly fishing.  I have been fly fishing for several years all over Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana.  I also speak Japanese fluently.  I am just looking to see if there is an interest among the Japanese in fly fishing.  I am close to graduation and the idea of being stuck in an office is horrifying.  If I can combine my language skills with something I love to do- fly fishing- I would be very happy.         If anyone can give me some advice on the best way to do some advertising I would greatly appreciate it.  If you are Japanese and can give me some feedback please e-mail me. (Eigo ka Nihongo…dochidemo ii desu)         Thanks for your help.

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I work for Japanese company and next to golf the Japaneses are getting into fly fishing in big way.  You idea sounds interesting and I have the same sentiments, however I have been working in Japan and Seattle for away.  Let me know your plans in more detail. Wayne

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