Question:

I am a recent arrival to the Central Valley- the Elk Grove area of Sacramento to be exact- and I’m looking for some fishing area tips. I did go out last night to the Sac River just south of the Freeport Bridge and caught cats with my neighbors, but catfishing is not my favorite pasttime. I did however learn several new tackle tips ; Magic String, Sliders" etc..  While I can tolerate bait fishing and always catch fishing using bait, it is not my favorite fishing. My former pursuits were the smallmouth bass of eastern NY rivers (Hoosick, Hudson, Mohawk) on spin and fly tackle so that may give you an idea of the kind of fishing I’m used to. I am perfectly happy fishing for bluegill  with a light fly rod and I have thoroughly enjoyed the occasional carp I’ve tied into. I know the area here has a wealth of fishing I’m just not sure where it is! I would like to start with freshwater sites for now. I do have a canoe so any smallcraft waters  directions would also be appreciated. Also any local publications I should be reading will be greatly appreciated. Also which stamps are worth the purchase on a CA fishing license? Thanks for being computer literate anglers! Phil

Response:

Get the Fish Sniffer, publisher is in Elk Grove.  Lots of fishing.  The pits next to I-5 hold bass, you can fish from shore, or canoe.  Get Tom Stienstra’s book, Fishing California, lists every bit of fishable water in the state.  The Stanislaus river is good, and canoe friendly.  Go up to Verona and shad may still be there, can fish fron the sandbar in the Feather.  Float the Sac above Colusa with the canoe.  Smallies, shad, salmon, LMB. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am a recent arrival to the Central Valley- the Elk Grove area of Sacramento to be exact- and I’m looking for some fishing area tips. I did go out last night to the Sac River just south of the Freeport Bridge and caught cats with my neighbors, but catfishing is not my favorite pasttime. I did however learn several new tackle tips ; Magic String, Sliders" etc..  While I can tolerate bait fishing and always catch fishing using bait, it is not my favorite fishing. My former pursuits were the smallmouth bass of eastern NY rivers (Hoosick, Hudson, Mohawk) on spin and fly tackle so that may give you an idea of the kind of fishing I’m used to. I am perfectly happy fishing for bluegill  with a light fly rod and I have thoroughly enjoyed the occasional carp I’ve tied into. I know the area here has a wealth of fishing I’m just not sure where it is! I would like to start with freshwater sites for now. I do have a canoe so any smallcraft waters  directions would also be appreciated. Also any local publications I should be reading will be greatly appreciated. Also which stamps are worth the purchase on a CA fishing license? Thanks for being computer literate anglers! Phil

Response:

Question:

Are there any websites that show step-by-step PICTURES or better yet mpeg movie showing the double haul in action???

http://www.mysportsguru.com/CDA/Article/0,1093,1-1007-1672-2007,00.html is one. — Charlie…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 5)  There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul.         a)  The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear.                 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster.         b)  The turn over of the wrist.         c)  The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist. In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then.  The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed.  As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT:  Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now.  One demo is worth a thousand words. But!  Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul.

Are there any websites that show step-by-step PICTURES or better yet mpeg movie showing the double haul in action??? Thanks in advance, dave

Response:

I believe you misspelled pathology. Wolfgang

As with your foot in mouth posts?  A Pathobiology fact noted by many Roffians regarding your off subject howlings? hummmm?  Casting is a pathology quirk, eh? guilty. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

______  You’re a hard working man Bill and deserve the best in all things.  Plan on meeting me in Montana this year if you can find a ten day slot.  My last stint at the Mayo Clinic and after hours in the operating room, is a wonderful success.  I’m indeed a fortunate man. Again, Happy New Year Bill. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi George and the rest of you wonderful ROFFers out there, I am here in Nor Cal in my old boxer shorts with a cup of coffee. I have to go into the shop this morning after a couple of days off. Had a nice Christmas with the family. I hope you are all feeling strong and healthy. I hope 2001 is a great year for you all. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com I have a break here today, in between Morning Presents and a beautiful turkey with all the fixings soon to be presented to many friends and relatives.  It is clear here today, crisp and bright as geese fly up and down the river looking for fresh graze. From the Book of Gink: AXIOMS 1)  There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast.  It is called, "Line Speed."  The greater the line speed the farther one can cast. 2)  Fly lines, like rubber bands, stretch.  As long as this slack remains (WITHIN Fly lines) while fly casting, energy is required to remove it.  That which is required to do so do NOT increase the line speed until the stretch is removed in all fly lines.  The tighter the line, the greater the line speed can be applied into a tightly taunt line. 3)  The greatest power that can be applied to a fly line is in the potential energy stored in the butt section of all fly rods.  Getting to that power is the question.  How do we do that? 4)  Fly rods are also fulcrums.  If one half a fly rod, from the tip to the mid section is bent during the forward cast, any applied power beyond these forward power curves is not unlike a long pole under a big rock with the fulcrum moved CLOSER to the weight.  In this case, the butt section! 5)  There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul. a)  The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear. 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster. b)  The turn over of the wrist. c)  The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist. In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then.  The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed.  As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT:  Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now.  One demo is worth a thousand words. But!  Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul. Merry Christmas. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

– Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

Steve is a marvelous teacher and instructor.   I can’t count the number of times he would watch me cast at a show and point out some new quirk I had picked up.

Big deal, we’ve been pointing out your quirks – old and new – for years. Not much of a challenge, either…

Response:

I believe you misspelled pathology. Wolfgang always glad to be of service

Response:

Tony, Don’t forget that loop size also determines how far the cast will go. Ernie "Tony Bishop" wrote <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast, it is called **line acceleration** the rate of change in line speed. Tony Bishop

Response:

Hello, I chanced upon a reference to a scientific paper which might be of interest to those technically inclined: John Robson The Physics of Flycasting American Journal of Physics, 1990 I made a note of it but have not looked for it in a library and read it (yet) so I don’t know if it is relevant to your discussion. Regards, Yuji Sakuma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, I pretty much agree with all you said, except the very first point, I rthink it should read: There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast, it is called **line acceleration** the rate of change in line speed. Loading the rod, using haul(s), wrist snaps, etc. evrything you and others have listed, all should contribute to increasing line acceleration during the casting stroke. If the line is not accelerating at the end of the casting stroke and when the rod unloads, the line will immediately begin to fall. I find that once a client understands feeling the weight on the backcast, and then adds the little tweaks on the way to the end of the casting stroke, the quicker they learn to maiximise distance and accuracy. Just by the by, I rarely use a double haul, only occasionally using a single haul, and that is when using 9 weights in the big rivers with big flies or heavy nymphs, or in the saltwater. And leaving my modesty behind I can toss out most of a flyline when I have to, without hauling. I go along with Lefty Kreh who said something along the lines of, hauling and such too often teaches someone to cast their mistakes further. — Tony Bishop  New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

Response:

There’s other things than line speed that effect distance, such as aerodynamics. e.g.  It’s easy to cast a number 20 GRHE than a bundel of flank feathers.  You also have differences in  changes in Center of Gravity (tight loop vs. open loop) to name a few.  Also the forward and backward motion of the shoulder plays a big part. Lou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a break here today, in between Morning Presents and a beautiful turkey with all the fixings soon to be presented to many friends and relatives.  It is clear here today, crisp and bright as geese fly up and down the river looking for fresh graze. From the Book of Gink: AXIOMS 1)  There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast.  It is called, "Line Speed."  The greater the line speed the farther one can cast. 2)  Fly lines, like rubber bands, stretch.  As long as this slack remains (WITHIN Fly lines) while fly casting, energy is required to remove it.  That which is required to do so do NOT increase the line speed until the stretch is removed in all fly lines.  The tighter the line, the greater the line speed can be applied into a tightly taunt line. 3)  The greatest power that can be applied to a fly line is in the potential energy stored in the butt section of all fly rods.  Getting to that power is the question.  How do we do that? 4)  Fly rods are also fulcrums.  If one half a fly rod, from the tip to the mid section is bent during the forward cast, any applied power beyond these forward power curves is not unlike a long pole under a big rock with the fulcrum moved CLOSER to the weight.  In this case, the butt section! 5)  There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul. a)  The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear. 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster. b)  The turn over of the wrist. c)  The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist. In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then.  The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed.  As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT:  Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now.  One demo is worth a thousand words. But!  Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul. Merry Christmas. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

Hi George and the rest of you wonderful ROFFers out there, I am here in Nor Cal in my old boxer shorts with a cup of coffee. I have to go into the shop this morning after a couple of days off. Had a nice Christmas with the family. I hope you are all feeling strong and healthy. I hope 2001 is a great year for you all. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a break here today, in between Morning Presents and a beautiful turkey with all the fixings soon to be presented to many friends and relatives.  It is clear here today, crisp and bright as geese fly up and down the river looking for fresh graze. From the Book of Gink: AXIOMS 1)  There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast.  It is called, "Line Speed."  The greater the line speed the farther one can cast. 2)  Fly lines, like rubber bands, stretch.  As long as this slack remains (WITHIN Fly lines) while fly casting, energy is required to remove it.  That which is required to do so do NOT increase the line speed until the stretch is removed in all fly lines.  The tighter the line, the greater the line speed can be applied into a tightly taunt line. 3)  The greatest power that can be applied to a fly line is in the potential energy stored in the butt section of all fly rods.  Getting to that power is the question.  How do we do that? 4)  Fly rods are also fulcrums.  If one half a fly rod, from the tip to the mid section is bent during the forward cast, any applied power beyond these forward power curves is not unlike a long pole under a big rock with the fulcrum moved CLOSER to the weight.  In this case, the butt section! 5)  There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul. a)  The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear. 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster. b)  The turn over of the wrist. c)  The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist. In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then.  The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed.  As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT:  Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now.  One demo is worth a thousand words. But!  Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul. Merry Christmas. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, I pretty much agree with all you said, except the very first point, I rthink it should read: There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast, it is called **line acceleration** the rate of change in line speed. Loading the rod, using haul(s), wrist snaps, etc. evrything you and others have listed, all should contribute to increasing line acceleration during the casting stroke. If the line is not accelerating at the end of the casting stroke and when the rod unloads, the line will immediately begin to fall. I find that once a client understands feeling the weight on the backcast, and then adds the little tweaks on the way to the end of the casting stroke, the quicker they learn to maiximise distance and accuracy. Just by the by, I rarely use a double haul, only occasionally using a single haul, and that is when using 9 weights in the big rivers with big flies or heavy nymphs, or in the saltwater. And leaving my modesty behind I can toss out most of a flyline when I have to, without hauling. I go along with Lefty Kreh who said something along the lines of, hauling and such too often teaches someone to cast their mistakes further. — Tony Bishop  New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

that has more casting mistakes than any of them and frankly, shouldn’t be teaching casting until he gets his errors corrected by a master. However; Lefty is very popular but it is no excuse to promote incorrect casting techniques.  I like Lefty, but there is a limit to condoning the public’s jaundiced eye.  Much better teachers are probably everyone else that does so in the industry but the best of the lot, in my opinion is D.Swisher.  Another is E. Schwiebert if and when he is available, but the best in the world is Steve Rajif.  This is the man Kreh all fly casting teachers should see on occasion.  Steve is a marvelous teacher and instructor.  I can’t count the number of times he would watch me cast at a show and point out some new quirk I had picked up. By the way, there is going to be a FLY FISHING SHOW IN DENVER this coming January, on the 6th & 7th.  I plan to be there with a booth.   — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

George, I pretty much agree with all you said, except the very first point, I rthink it should read: There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast, it is called **line acceleration** the rate of change in line speed. Loading the rod, using haul(s), wrist snaps, etc. evrything you and others have listed, all should contribute to increasing line acceleration during the casting stroke. If the line is not accelerating at the end of the casting stroke and when the rod unloads, the line will immediately begin to fall. I find that once a client understands feeling the weight on the backcast, and then adds the little tweaks on the way to the end of the casting stroke, the quicker they learn to maiximise distance and accuracy. Just by the by, I rarely use a double haul, only occasionally using a single haul, and that is when using 9 weights in the big rivers with big flies or heavy nymphs, or in the saltwater. And leaving my modesty behind I can toss out most of a flyline when I have to, without hauling. I go along with Lefty Kreh who said something along the lines of, hauling and such too often teaches someone to cast their mistakes further. — Tony Bishop  New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

Response:

I have a break here today, in between Morning Presents and a beautiful turkey with all the fixings soon to be presented to many friends and relatives.  It is clear here today, crisp and bright as geese fly up and down the river looking for fresh graze. From the Book of Gink: AXIOMS 1)  There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast.  It is called, "Line Speed."  The greater the line speed the farther one can cast. 2)  Fly lines, like rubber bands, stretch.  As long as this slack remains (WITHIN Fly lines) while fly casting, energy is required to remove it.  That which is required to do so do NOT increase the line speed until the stretch is removed in all fly lines.  The tighter the line, the greater the line speed can be applied into a tightly taunt line. 3)  The greatest power that can be applied to a fly line is in the potential energy stored in the butt section of all fly rods.  Getting to that power is the question.  How do we do that? 4)  Fly rods are also fulcrums.  If one half a fly rod, from the tip to the mid section is bent during the forward cast, any applied power beyond these forward power curves is not unlike a long pole under a big rock with the fulcrum moved CLOSER to the weight.  In this case, the butt section! 5)  There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul.         a)  The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear.                 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster.         b)  The turn over of the wrist.         c)  The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist.   In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then.  The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed.  As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT:  Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now.  One demo is worth a thousand words. But!  Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul. Merry Christmas. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

Question:

I know they are annoying, as a flats fisherman I have had jet skis go by me at full blast while fly fishing, they were close enough to hook (damn I missed). However, when I have my kids out on my large boat, they get the biggest kick out of seeing one of those guys on a jet boat fly over the wake and nose dive into the other side, they are actually comical and can provide  entertainment. I don’t mind them as long as I am not fishing and as long as they stay in the back and away from my bow. If they were just a little more sensitive to the people around them we could all get along…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know they are annoying, as a flats fisherman I have had jet skis go by me at full blast while fly fishing, they were close enough to hook (damn I missed). However, when I have my kids out on my large boat, they get the biggest kick out of seeing one of those guys on a jet boat fly over the wake and nose dive into the other side, they are actually comical and can provide  entertainment. I don’t mind them as long as I am not fishing and as long as they stay in the back and away from my bow. If they were just a little more sensitive to the people around them we could all get along…

As someone that enjoys PWC’s very much, if their doing something unsafe or illegal, don’t hesitate to call some law enforcement.  The day we get all the idiots off the water will be the day that people don’t think less of me for using a PWC. — Granular "Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball."

Response:

Question:

I’ve got to tell ya, the dogs haven’t been real happy with me and my broken foot. No more rousing games of soccer, it takes me forever to even get up or down the stairs or across the room. We’re playing other games, but I’ve got to be careful for quite a while yet. Walking aross the yard is a trick; lumpy ground is really hard to deal with. And I was the one who played with the dogs the most. Sigh. So the other day, I’m upstairs and I hear the door open (must be husband coming in) and then I hear strange dog sounds. So I hobble downstairs and I see this strange tangle of dogs and a human on the floor sort of rolling around in a ball. They heard me and they suddenly all stopped and looked at me, my husband looking the most sheepish of all. Silly hub’n puppies!

Response:

nice to know he can step in A fun doggy game for sitting humans is the cat intended fishing pole game  a stick a string (preferably strong ones with a sproingy stick) and a soft toy to fly around ahead of the galloping herd can be lots of fun the dog that catches it has to fetch and give so the game can continue Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got to tell ya, the dogs haven’t been real happy with me and my broken foot. No more rousing games of soccer, it takes me forever to even get up or down the stairs or across the room. We’re playing other games, but I’ve got to be careful for quite a while yet. Walking aross the yard is a trick; lumpy ground is really hard to deal with. And I was the one who played with the dogs the most. Sigh. So the other day, I’m upstairs and I hear the door open (must be husband coming in) and then I hear strange dog sounds. So I hobble downstairs and I see this strange tangle of dogs and a human on the floor sort of rolling around in a ball. They heard me and they suddenly all stopped and looked at me, my husband looking the most sheepish of all. Silly hub’n puppies!

Response:

nice to know he can step in A fun doggy game for sitting humans is the cat intended fishing pole game a stick a string (preferably strong ones with a sproingy stick) and a soft toy to fly around ahead of the galloping herd can be lots of fun the dog that catches it has to fetch and give so the game can continue Nancy

I think it’s harder on me than on the dogs. WAAAAAAAAAA! I wanna go out and play doggie soccer! <snivel donna

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, that’s a new one on me.  Could you post a recipe for the Pass Lake (here or on rofft)? I use standard dry fly hooks in sizes 16-10, with 12s and 14s being the most common..  Tie in a bit of mallard flank for the tail and snip to just behind the bend.  The body is fine chenille wrapped back and then forward to make it fat.  I usually use black, sometimes brown, but any color can be used.  Take two turns of brown hackle and then sweep them toward the back of the hook and tie down.  The wing is a heavy clump of white calf tail tied in on top and also swept back.  Calf tail is VERY slippery. It’s important to tie it in very firmly or it will pull out.

My copy of Flies: The Best 1000 gives the following recipe: hook: TMC 7999, Partidge M or P, size 8-12 thread: black 6/0 prewaxed tail: brown hackle fibers body: black Chenille hackle: brown hackle wing: white calftail They classify this as an Atlantic Salmon fly — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

thanks a bunch All of the advice has been miles of help.  I’m fly fishing the entire 3 day weekend in central Oregon. I think the best casting lesson is given from another fisherman, and not from a book.  So I will try to find an amiable fisherman where I am fishing this weekend to give me the basics.  I know the the book basics – 10 and 2 o’clock, keep your wrist locked, etc.  But I think a 1-on-1 lesson with a seasoned fisherman would be priceless. thanks again, and tight lines to all -Max

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? thanks a lot -Max

Response:

They classify this as an Atlantic Salmon fly

I’ve only seen dressings for this fly in two sources over the years.  Both of them listed it as a streamer.  I’ve actually tied it as such and failed to catch anything on it.  I was first introduced to it by an excellent tier back when I was just beginning to get interested in fly fishing.  He tied it as a dry fly (as in my description) and I do it just as he did.  Considering how successful it’s been for me, I have always been surprised by how few people know the Pass Lake at all, regardless of how it’s dressed.  I’ve had a number of hundred fish days using this fly and it is very consistent fish catcher.  It has not been uncommon in my experience for fish to prefer it to whatever might be hatching at the moment.  Go figure.

Response:

My experience is that selectivity to pattern is very uncommon.  As long as you have an appropriately sized fly, presented well, you get takes. Changing size is often important, changing pattern seldom is even during heavy hatches. The exceptions I’ve found to this is when fishing very calm water or with fish that are in heavily fished C&R waters (they can become hyper selective). Too many new anglers get wrapped up in finding the "right" fly rather than concentrating on the more important and more difficult aspect of reading water and making a good presentation. 90%+ of fish will respond to an appropriately sized fly presented correctly (Correctly is a VERY big subject) while 90%+ of fish will ignore a poorly presented fly even if it matches the hatch perfectly.   A little story I read in some magazine or book: There was a pod of notoriously difficult selectively surface feeding fish on a popular C&R river. These fish would consistently surface feed on the far bank under some overhanging branches. These fish were locally famous for being extremely difficult & selective. A number of patterns were designed especially for these fish. An angler would have success one day and catch one of these "tough" ones. Someone would have success on a new fly and there’d be an instant new "hot" pattern  This went on for several years with a multitude of patterns circulating around, but no one was able to achieve any consistent success. Then the discovery was made!  An energetic and smart angler made the long hike needed to cross the river and did some bushwhacking to get in position for a downstream cast directly above the feeding fish.  He clobbered them on a simple Elk Hair’s Caddis.  It seems that the fish were not so selective to pattern but where very selective to presentation.  An infrequent good drift could be made from the far bank, but the intervening currents made it very difficult. Thus the sporadic results with the new hot flies. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you’re fishing a Caddis, and BWO’s start to come off, and fish start hitting them, you’d be foolish not to change flies.  Even as a newbie. Similarly, if you’re sight fishing, and you present a fly properly to a feeding, unspooked fish, and it doesn’t respond, you should change. Period.  Of course, as a newbie, you may have trouble sorting out when you’ve met the criteria ("properly presented", "unspooked").  But hey, life is tough for newbies, so what else is new?  But the alternative of continuing to chuck your "one" fly at the beast isn’t all that attractive either. I do think that disciplined, careful changing of flies is a skill that can be learned by newbies, and is preferable to sticking with one fly no matter what happens.  For example, if you don’t know what they’re hitting, learning to fish a two nymph rig, and systematically changing one fly at a time when nothing happens is all to the good, imho.  If you want to keep one a hare’s ear all the time, by all means.  But changing the other systematically would likely improve results. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I have always been surprised by how few people know the Pass Lake at all, regardless of how it’s dressed.  I’ve had a number of hundred fish days using this fly and it is very consistent fish catcher.  It has not been uncommon in my experience for fish to prefer it to whatever might be hatching at the moment.  Go figure.

Thanks Wolfgang.  I happen to have the materials handy so I’ll tie up a few tonight – never hurts to try something new.  A wooly worm with a calftail wing basically.  If my local trout don’t care for it, I’m sure the pumpkinseeds will.  Fishing it like you do, trapped in the film, is probably a good imitator of a variety of emergers. Regards, Stan

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When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts)

My advice to a beginner is to not give in to the temptation of switching flies very often.  Learn how to present a nymph and a dry properly, at the correct depth, in the right spots etc.  The "right" fly presented poorly is much worse than the "wrong" fly presented well and in the right place. Presentation is the skill that makes a good fly fisherman who can be successful on varied waters and conditions. IMHO this is the skill a beginner should concentrate on. Once you learn where the fish are most likely to be and how to present a fly in the correct manner and at the right depth, selecting the "right" fly may increase your catch. Without presentation skills, it doesn’t matter much which fly you’re using. I’d suggest using an all around dry and nymph to start.  A 16 Elk Hair Caddis and a 14 Hare’s Ear area good choice for Western waters. Willi

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0] : I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: : Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that : the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. : Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? : If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? : What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake : vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. : When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) : What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? : thanks a lot : -Max I will add something to the other answers you have gotten to your questions. I find that most of the time I can clean the fish slime off a dry fly by flicking it hard against the water on a short line a few times, then a couple of false casts to dry it, and then the next cast is to a fish–all without having to touch the fly after I have released the fish. Obviously don’t flick it near the spot where you are going fish it next. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

My advice to a beginner is to not give in to the temptation of switching flies very often. I’d suggest using an all around dry and nymph to start.  A 16 Elk Hair Caddis and a 14 Hare’s Ear area good choice for Western waters.

Willi, Like anything else, it’s a matter of everything in moderation, including moderation. If you’re fishing a Caddis, and BWO’s start to come off, and fish start hitting them, you’d be foolish not to change flies.  Even as a newbie. Similarly, if you’re sight fishing, and you present a fly properly to a feeding, unspooked fish, and it doesn’t respond, you should change. Period.  Of course, as a newbie, you may have trouble sorting out when you’ve met the criteria ("properly presented", "unspooked").  But hey, life is tough for newbies, so what else is new?  But the alternative of continuing to chuck your "one" fly at the beast isn’t all that attractive either. I do think that disciplined, careful changing of flies is a skill that can be learned by newbies, and is preferable to sticking with one fly no matter what happens.  For example, if you don’t know what they’re hitting, learning to fish a two nymph rig, and systematically changing one fly at a time when nothing happens is all to the good, imho.  If you want to keep one a hare’s ear all the time, by all means.  But changing the other systematically would likely improve results. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– While in non-compliance with local decency ordinances the world over, Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink.

I didn’t think that fish salivate. Shows ya what I know. At any rate, I don’t change the fly. Some people will re-tie the knot after every fish, but I don’t even do that. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished?

Both. Usually, most people think that the key is how the fly is tied, but I personally consider a dry that sinks to be a wet fly. (However, it’s rare that wet flies float, since they’re often weighted) If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly?

Not necessarily. You just need to gink it. I would say that it is, but I’d bet that I’m in the minority. What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc.

If there’s a hatch and fish are feeding at the surface, then I’d use a dry. Otherwise, I might start with some dry search pattern, but I’d probably move on to nymphs or streamers. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts)

After an hour or so with no action. But that depends. It’s easy for me to tie on the right fly and then screw everything else up. What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns?

My own do-everything dry patterns are the Adams, Royal Coachman, a hopper pattern, and an Elk Hair Caddis. I also carry Hare’s Ear and Prince Nymphs, and Wooly Bugger, or some sort of Muddler streamer. If I’m on warm water, I’ll add cork poppers in various colors. All told, those make up probably 95% of all of the fishing that I do. But then, there are much better fishermen than I in this newsgroup Tight Lines! —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBN3vW/ckBcsCVVLK5AQH5mQP/bzO6lYiF4+s9UBS0y7+cktA3xMLs7RMJ Ooi4q1H+d4ELDsk9K3VObnsGGmZM76cB2DnnXAA2L85wBCPP8lplKURnxDjw6JVN h+whcgF4olt3U44TBEYLay38UFT4nfmr9aZhRo5mV/NSLkJOrpjGze2ltZfTwdqp chR+N3TfgYE= =8KRl —–END PGP SIGNATURE—– Mike S. Medintz, B.S. | http://www.grapevine.net/~medintz "Living with a dog is easy-like living with an idealist  is easy." -H.L. Mencken

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Max: You have received good advise from all, butIi would like to add one fly that I do not leave home without that appears to have been forgotten by all.That is a Clouser minnow. My most productive one is very sparsely tied chartreuse over white and tied with bead chain eyes. Big Dale

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Max: You have received good advise from all, butIi would like to add one fly that I do not leave home without that appears to have been forgotten by all.That is a Clouser minnow. My most productive one is very sparsely tied chartreuse over white and tied with bead chain eyes.

Hey Dale, my own personal "Don’t leave home without it" is the Pass Lake.  Never understood why this bug isn’t more popular.  It’s somewhat infuriating to use because it always sinks when I want it to float and always floats when I want it to sink, but it catches lots of fish either way.  I used to do a lot of fishing with a partner.  We would take turns.  One would fish while the other watched and critiqued.  When a fish was hooked we’d change places.  While waiting my turn to fish I would simply let my bug dangle downstream.  This turned out to be an incredibly effective technique with the Pass Lake; many hundreds of fish caught this way!  The Pass Lake, though it resembles nothing I have ever seen on this Earth is very popular with trout, and bluegills just can’t leave the damned thing alone!

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Hey Dale, my own personal "Don’t leave home without it" is the Pass

Lake. <dot dot dot OK, that’s a new one on me.  Could you post a recipe for the Pass Lake (here or on rofft)? My personal favorites are the zug bug and the prince nymph – don’t know why these are so effective – maybe it’s the peacock herl.  Caught over 100 panfish plus a goodly number of bass on those during the past week.  I ran out of both and need to tie more tonight… –Stan

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OK, that’s a new one on me.  Could you post a recipe for the Pass Lake (here or on rofft)?

I use standard dry fly hooks in sizes 16-10, with 12s and 14s being the most common..  Tie in a bit of mallard flank for the tail and snip to just behind the bend.  The body is fine chenille wrapped back and then forward to make it fat.  I usually use black, sometimes brown, but any color can be used.  Take two turns of brown hackle and then sweep them toward the back of the hook and tie down.  The wing is a heavy clump of white calf tail tied in on top and also swept back.  Calf tail is VERY slippery. It’s important to tie it in very firmly or it will pull out. This fly often rides with the body submerged because of the chenille’s propensity to absorb water, and the wing on the surface.  I suspect it is the fat body just below the surface that makes it attractive to fish despite the fact that it doesn’t really resemble anything that lives in the water.  A liberal application of Albolene helps keep the wing on top. However, as I stated in my original post this one often sinks anyway.  The only real problem with this is that the fly is then difficult to see in fast or foamy water.  It will catch fish anyway.  It can be fish as a dry, a wet, or an emerger.  I’ve never tried weighting it and using as a nymph but I suspect that would work too. TL!

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Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that

Most people try to use flies made of materials that will dry by false-casting:  then you do not need to change the fly after it gets sodden.  Method #2 is to waterproof your flies: there are plenty of formulae or commercial products. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly?

Old (English) theory:  yes:  retrieve and change it. New (American) practice: no:  just carry on fishing. What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc.

Yes, all of the above.  In practice, when no fish are visible, most anglers tie on a known "attractor" to get fish to show themselves. E.g. Henryville Special (dry caddis) is good for trout, Cockatouche (streamer, sunk) for bass. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts)

1.  Choice #1 is between the same fly in a different place and a different fly in the same place. 2.  When you have not yet seen any fish, and if the wading is not too daunting, 4 or 5 casts is enough — and then you move on to cover more water. 3.  It is different if you have seen a fish, e.g. noticed one feeding to a hatch, or got an unsuccessful strike in pocket water.  You should then try 10 or 20 different variations (fly or placement) — indefinitely so long as you do not scare the fish away. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Max….buddy…..you’ve got a LOT of reading to do…. Pick up a copy of Curtis Creek Manifesto (no, not a predecessor to the Unabombers Manifesto!!)…this is a humorous but highly informative book about beginning to Flyfish, a good book for folks that are getting "hooked"….yes, an intentional pun… If you have fished at all before, you probably know some about reading the water… knowing how the water moves, where "lies" are (besides those coming from fishermen’s mouths) and what effect current has on fish.  If not, take a look at a used bookstore for a copy of Ray Ovinton’s "Tactics on Trout"…. it’s a great overview book and can usually be picked up in a late printing used for around $10….another EXCELLENT book on the subject is Ray Bergman’s "Trout"…but it may be a bit more expensive. If you know folks that flyfish, go with them….but leave your rod behind on the first trip and observe closely…ask alot of questions like "why did you do that?" and "why did you cast there?" flyfishermen love to talk about their sport and will be good teachers, but the best classroom is a stream or lake….it’s real toigh to describe how things work away from the water. To learn more about the insects, what they look like and what flies approximate that look, get a copy of Hughes and Haefle’s "Western Hatch Guide" or Art Flick’s "Streamside Guide" …. H&H’s book has a wider range of information, especially for Western US waters….but Flick’s has better photos. Don’t buy flies until you know what types of insects to expect where you’re going to fish….it will help you decide what may work for you and what sizes.  There are some standard pattterns that will work almost anywhere at some point in time, like ….. Dries (there’s a range of colors for all of them..even the Adams….grey, olive, tan, etc.) Adams Elk Hair Caddis Stimulator Sparkle Dun Comparadun Wulffs Royals Trudes Cahills Hendricksons Humpys Mosquitos Nymphs Golden and Brown Stones Pheasant Tails Grey Goose Fox Squirrel Fledermaus APs Prince Zugs Hare’s Ear Wets Cahills Leadwing Coachman Hare’s Ear Professor Trout Fin Picket Pin Wooly Worms Streamers and larger wets Ghosts Mickey Finn Daces Thunder Creeks Wooly Buggers Leeches Matukas Zonkers Terrestrials Hoppers Crickets Beetles Inchworms Caterpilars Ants Mice Best of luck and welcome to the lunacy known as flyfishing….I’m sure your next questions will involve FLYTYING  :) Larry #:)#

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly? ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? thanks a lot -Max

Max, Unfortunately, the answers to most of these questions are not clear- cut.  They must begin with "depends".  A dry fly floats because it does not break the miscus or surface tension of the water it lays on.  I just walked in from fishing a Giant Yellow Mayfly for Bluegill.  I caught 8 large fish in 25 minutes and did not change flys (on my lunch 1/2 hour).  The fly was Ginked before hand and had no trouble staying afloat.  Some flys do not float as well.  Throw it back on the water and see if it sinks.  If it dies, dry it and re-treat it.  If it still sinks, tie on a new one.  I usually carry 3 of each pattern I expect to use because of losses to trees and the need to change out after several fish.  Drys are tied differently from wets in most instances. Watch for feeding fish and go dry or wet depending on what you see.  Fish feed primarily under water so that should be a clue. For fly selection, again, it "depends".  Species, local hatch/baitfish matches, water, etc.  For Trout make sure you have Royal Coachman wet and dry, Royal Wolf wet and dry, Elk Hair Caddis dry and nymph, Yellow Humpy dry, Mad Tom streamer, Grey Ghost streamer, Adams dry, Light Cahill dry, Trico dry, Blue Quill dry, Quill Gordon dry, and Hare’s Ear Bead Head nymph. Have all these flys in sizes 16 to 20 and add size 22 for Tricos. For Smallmouth add black popper, blue popper, Mad Tom streamer, and Zonker streamer.  Have these in sizes 2, 4 and 6.  For Bluegill add yellow popper with legs in size 6 and Crystal fly in silver and/or gold in size 6. Now, you wanna talk saltwater or salmon or other species?  There are specialists here for all of these. Just ask! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20

casts) Max: Mike Conner and others have given you some great responses.  I’ll focus only on this question of when to switch flies. I know, for myself, as I’ve gotten more experienced, I tend to change flies MORE not less. This is partly because I have more confidence in my ability to read water and present a fly.  Ergo, if fish aren’t taking, it’s time to change. There’s no hard and fast rule, as others have pointed out.  If you can see the fish, present the fly where the fish can definitely see it, in it’s feeding lane, and there’s no reponse, that’s usually a good indication to change.  In these cases, you might change after only 1 or 2 casts. If you’re fishing blind, the lack of response from "fishy" spots, lethargic takes, refusals, etc. are indications it’s time to change. Also, if you’re fishing an attractor or some other pattern based on guess or history, and then you see another type of fly hatching, that’s a prescription to change instantly to match the hatch. If fish are rising, and you see swirls, watch carefully to see if the mouth or the back of the fish is causing the swirl.  If the latter, it’s an indication the fish are taking an emerger.  You’d then want to switch immediately to a wet fly, nymph, or emerger pattern. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink.

No, you don’t generally need to change a fly each time you catch a fish unless the fly is damaged.   Dry flies (so named because they float on the surface) depend on the surface tension of the water supporting the barbs of the hackle feathers.   Fish saliva (aka slime) will coat these feathers and prevent them from floating as designed.   Rinse off the fly, dry it (crystals, blow on it, false casting, etc.) and it’s good for another fish. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished?

The terminology generally refers to how it is tied, that is, how it is designed to be fished.   There are always, of course, exceptions.   A dry can easily be fished wet, but the reverse is unlikely. If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly?

No, it is a sunken dry fly. What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc.

That’s a lot of question to answer here.   In broad, maybe obvious terms, use a fly that matches what the fish are eating.   If they’re sipping insects off the surface, use a dry.   If you see them taking nymphs off the bottom, use a nymph.   If you can’t see fish at all, try "searching" with a streamer or attractor pattern in some likely holding spots.   There are dozens of books that can fill in the blanks on this.   I have and like "Prospecting for Trout" by Tom Rosenbauer (my only Orvis posession); but I have no doubt that others also have their favorites. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts)

There’s no hard and fast rule for me.   I change when I’ve lost confidence that what I’m using is right.   Even if a trout takes a good look at my fly and refuses it, I could be doing a half dozen other things wrong but still have the right fly.   If you’re sure you have no drag, the leader is invisible, the presentation is perfect and the fish hasn’t been spooked; but he still won’t take it, maybe it’s time to consider that the fly may be wrong.   As often as not though, I can’t blame the fly. What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns?

It really depends on where you fish and the common insects found there.   A few "universal" patters seem to be Hendrickson, Adams, and Royal Wulff dries, Hare’s Ear and Pheasant Tail nymphs, Woolly Buggers and Muddler Minnow streamers.   Many more to follow from others. Joe F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? thanks a lot -Max

Hi Max, You do not need to change the fly after every fish, only if it is slimed up or soaked through( Dry flies ). Fish slime will cause a dry fly to sink, and it must then be cleaned dried and re-dressed to get it to float again.  For wet flies this is not a problem, just washing the slime off suffices, as the fly is designed to sink. Wet flies are tied basically to sink, and dry flies are tied basically to float.  You can use a dry fly as a wet fly if you want to however.  How you designate the fly really depends on how you fish it, although some flies are tied specifically to float using certain materials, and would be difficult to use properly as wet flies. The same goes for many wet flies which are tied specifically to sink, even using weight such as lead wire etc to achieve better sinking properties, it would not be possible to use such a fly as a dry fly of course. If fish are taking well on the surface and you can match the hatch, then it is a good idea, and a lot of fun to fish dry flies.  If there is no obvious hatch and no or very few rises, then you will probably have more success with wet flies. There are no hard and fast rules for this, you can fish wet or dry flies whichever you prefer at the time. If you know that your fly is a good imitation, and it is working OK then there is no need to change it at all.  When to change is a matter of personal preference. if fish are rising and you are not catching any, then it may be a good idea to change to another pattern though. For a good list of general purpose patterns have a look at http://www.flyangleronline.com  and go to the beginners section from the main menu.   There is quite a lot of other info there which should help you as well. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? thanks a lot -Max

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Question:

        I got tired of catching the regular fish we had around here so I asked a friend what we could do about getting in some different species. He said that he had been to Arkansas and up there they planted trout. I called the Fish and Game people and they were more than happy to send me some baby rainbows. Now, here’s the problem….         I keep planting them and they keep dying. I asked my buddy about it and he thinks we’re planting them too deep. My thought is…maybe our soil ain’t right. ps. Would fish meal be a good fertilizer? Why aren’t you fishing? Da’ Capt

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YOU GOT IT RIGHT!  They are definitely planted too deep.  Also, maybe browns would work better? Ed BTW – forget it!

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All hatchery trout should be planted, preferably in dirt. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – YOU GOT IT RIGHT!  They are definitely planted too deep.  Also, maybe browns would work better? Ed BTW – forget it!

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Are you planting the heads UP or DOWN ???? Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         I got tired of catching the regular fish we had around here so I asked a friend what we could do about getting in some different species. He said that he had been to Arkansas and up there they planted trout. I called the Fish and Game people and they were more than happy to send me some baby rainbows. Now, here’s the problem….         I keep planting them and they keep dying. I asked my buddy about it and he thinks we’re planting them too deep. My thought is…maybe our soil ain’t right. ps. Would fish meal be a good fertilizer? Why aren’t you fishing? Da’ Capt

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Question:

I have been tying flys for a couple of years and reciently decided to get in to dry flys. I started pricing the various necks, ouch! My question is, is it really that big of a deal to use grade 2 necks over grade 1? Also, are Spencer necks any good? Their necks cost about $20 less than the Metz. Are the Metz micro-barb saddles any good? Will I get e decient selection of 14-16 hackle. I don’t plan on tying anything smaller than a 20, for now. Also, I am married so that makes it kind of hard to justify 70 dollars for "a bunch of feathers".0     Thanx,         Pat

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I would strongly consider that you check out Hoffmann’s super saddles in grade 2 or 3. I just sized all of the feathers on a Grade two and they range from 12 up to 18 with a concentration in the 14-16 size. The feathers are incredible, you can tie 5-6 flies with one feather! You can tie hundreds of dozens of flies with one of these saddles. If you figure it on a flies/money basis this is a good deal. If you E-mail Dennis out of each Hoffmann super saddle, and what sizes. You really only need a neck if you are going to tie a lot of very small dries.

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I have been tying flys for a couple of years and reciently decided to get in to dry flys. I started pricing the various necks, ouch! My question is, is it really that big of a deal to use grade 2 necks over grade 1? Also, are Spencer necks any good? Their necks cost about $20 less than the Metz. Are the Metz micro-barb saddles any good? Will I get e decient selection of 14-16 hackle. I don’t plan on tying anything smaller than a 20, for now. Also, I am married so that makes it kind of hard to justify 70 dollars for "a bunch of feathers".0     Thanx,         Pat

Hi Pat Yes those darned feathers cost a bunch but think about Hoffman saddles. You can buy a 1/2 saddle for $18.00 and tie a heck of a lot of flies. If you are interestd I sell them OR check out you local fly shop. Hoffman saddles usually have a feather size range from #12 – #18 with most feathers in the size most tiers use, #14 & #16. My wife and I make a major portion of our living tying flies and we use Hoffman saddles almost exclusively. They are really great. I do carry some other alternatives in my stock, just email for further details or a catalog. You can keep the cost of hackle down also by purchasing with a friend and dividing the neck or saddle — just an idea. Good tying & … — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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I have been tying flys for a couple of years and reciently decided to get in to dry flys. I started pricing the various necks, ouch! My question is, is it really that big of a deal to use grade 2 necks over grade 1? Also, are Spencer necks any good? Their necks cost about $20 less than the Metz. Are the Metz micro-barb saddles any good? Will I get e decient selection of 14-16 hackle. I don’t plan on tying anything smaller than a 20, for now. Also, I am married so that makes it kind of hard to justify 70 dollars for "a bunch of feathers".0     Thanx,         Pat

Spencers are quite good, I have several.  I really like their hen necks as well. I think the best approach is to go for Hoffman saddles. The Metz saddles don’t go as small in range as the Hoffmans.  Splitting a number 2 saddle with a buddy will get you outfitted for a long time.  Go to the store – do not do this mail order, and use your hackle sizer to check out the various saddles.  They will run all of a size on each saddle, make sure you get one that is right for what you want to use it for.  Then you are fixed for that fly for years.

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 I started pricing the various necks, ouch! My question is, is it really that big of a deal to use grade 2 necks over grade 1? Also, are Spencer necks any good? T

Patrick; The best (most economical and best feathers) way to do this is to get Hoffman Grade #3 necks.  The feathers are the same, but the density is less.  I bought a Hoffman saddle and should have bought a neck.  Saddles are great if you are tying a lot of 12-16 flies.  I needed 16-18. Saddles are superior hackle, but the size is limited. JB

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I always get #1…1.  There is a difference, and 2.  One of my ff buddies came over to the house, flipped the neck over and saw the #2 stamp and called me girlyman for being a tightwad.

for a couple of years and reciently decided to – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – get in to dry flys. I started pricing the various necks, ouch! My question is, is it really that big of a deal to use grade 2 necks over grade 1?

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get in to dry flys. I started pricing the various necks, ouch! My question is, is it really that big of a deal to use grade 2 necks over grade 1? Also, are Spencer necks any good? Their necks cost about $20 less than the Metz. Are the Metz micro-barb saddles any good? Will I get e decient selection of 14-16 hackle. I don’t plan on tying anything smaller than a 20, for now. Also, I am married so that makes it kind of hard to justify 70 dollars for "a bunch of feathers".0     Thanx,         Pat /

Years ago, in the 60s and 70s, we got our chicken hackle from India and China. We graded them in AAAA, AAA, AA, A, B and C, if I remember right. We would buy them by the hundred and would grade them ourselves. Hal Janssen, a northern California fly fishing and tying expert, once showed me how to grade them. He first put them into stacks by color. Then you would check the stiffness by bending a hackle and putting it up against his upper lip. Then he would check for the size range. This was the big killer as many of them would not have a feather smaller than a #12. This was not so bad years ago as the fish were more plentiful and would eat a #12. We would look for feathers that had some length to them so you didn’t have to tie on 3 to 5 hackle to get enough turns to make a good fly.  We would have many different colors. White, creme, ginger, red game(brown) and coachman brown(very dark) along with combos like badger, flame, cree, cocubony(sp) and grizzly. We would die creme necks to a blue dun. My friend, Bob Quigley, could really get some good looking blue dun and light olive die jobs. I would die saddles hot orange for steelhead hackle as we could not get any. I say that today we are all spoiled with the genetic necks from Hoffman and Metz. Years ago, if you had a neck that looked like a #3 Metz you wouldn’t tie with it. You would just pull it out and show it off to your friends. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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I have been tying flys for a couple of years and reciently decided to get in to dry flys. I started pricing the various necks, ouch! My question is, is it really that big of a deal to use grade 2 necks over grade 1? Also, are Spencer necks any good? Their necks cost about $20 less than the Metz. Are the Metz micro-barb saddles any good? Will I get e decient selection of 14-16 hackle. I don’t plan on tying anything smaller than a 20, for now. Also, I am married so that makes it kind of hard to justify 70 dollars for "a bunch of feathers".0     Thanx,         Pat

Hi Pat, Usually the biggest difference between #1 and #2 necks is the amount of small sizes of hackle.  Unless you are going to tie a lot of #22 – #26 flies, the #2 is all you need and may actually be preferable to the #1.  I have an old  #1 Metz brown cape that I can’t use for size 10 or 12 flies because the stems are too thick to wind well in those sizes. The Hoffman saddle split between friends (as suggested by Al Beatty) is a great idea presuming you can find them.  I have a #3 Hoffman grizzly saddle (looks as good as most #2’s Ive seen since) that has primarily #16 & #18 feathers that are 7" to 9" long.  They are a fly tiers dream as that is the size of most of the dry flies that I tie.  Be warned however that the Hoffman saddles usually have 2 sizes in abundance and other sizes are scarce by comparison.  They are there, but not nearly in the numbers as the 2 primary sizes.  These primary sizes vary from saddle to saddle so be sure to check them out so you get the sizes you use most often. The normal Metz saddles are *not* in this league.  Their feathers are long but more commonly run in 8’s and 6’s with a few 10’s and 12’s if you’re lucky.  I haven’t seen their "micro barb" saddles yet. If you can’t check them out yourself, order them from Al or someone that you have confidence will give you what you request and take it back if it is not satisfactory.  Be sure to specify the preferred sizes you want to use it for.                                   Good Luck,                                         Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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I always get #1…1.  There is a difference, and 2.  One of my ff buddies came over to the house, flipped the neck over and saw the #2 stamp and called me girlyman for being a tightwad.

GET A NEW FRIEND! Sounds like a guy that buys everything based on brand and price, not on need and functionality. Most commercial tyers or moderately high-volume tyers buy #3 and #2 saddles and capes unless they’re looking for a large volume of SMALL hackles (and by small, I mean size 24-28 stuff!!) By going to a well stocked shop and selecting your own hackle, you’ll find that many of Hoffman’s graders will downgrade a cape/saddle due to broken tips and "less than even" coloring across a cape/saddle.  Personally, when I can get 6 or 7 flies out of one saddle, I don’t get too bent about the tips being broken!!  As for the less than even color, well…hao many times do you think a fly is refused because the dun is medium instead of light on one turn of the hackle??   If your fish refuse flies like this, send em to your pal that says you’re a wuss for buying #2s!!  Bet he’s got a teal vest and uses a rod with a dampening action in the handle! I’ve tyed flies for over 30 years, and over the past 15 years I’ve bought ONE #1 cape…a grizzly that I still have.  I’ve purchased an average of 6 capes and saddles per year since then, mostly Hoffmans, mostly #3s and some #2s. Larry #:)#

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I will be in Galveston, Tx in the 2nd week of october.  Any good sight fishing in the shallows for redfish?? Is there wading access from shore? Do I need a boat??

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Call ANGLER’S EDGE in Houston and ask them to help you set up a guide for the Galveston area. Or you may want to head two hours south for Port O’connor flats fishing, or Rockport, for even clearer water. If you are going to Rockport, fish with Chuck Naiser – a fly-fishing-only guide who will do a great job for you. You can see Naiser on the full page SAGE ads in the saltwater fly fishing magazine. Naiser’s # is 512-729-9314.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I have just gone through a bunch of older fly rods and decided that I’d like to try them again. Unfortunately, they do not have any markings on them as to line weight. The rods are fiber glass and thus old enough not to have the AFTMA or older ABCDEFGH marking, so it probably will have to be trial and error before I get lines to work properly. Does anyone have suggestions as to how I can get the correct line weights without having to buy a whole bunch of lines? I remember using the rods 25 years ago and enjoying them, so I don’t just want to discard them for my current tackle. There is a 7′, 8′, and an 8 1/2′. The little one seems to overload with a 7weight and the longer rods appear not to load properly with the 7wt.        Frank —

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | I just saw Sinead Oconner on Letterman and I liked her better without | hair, at least that way you could use your imagination and THINK she MIGHT | be cute.  Now that I’ve seen her with hair I know for sure she’s ugly. | | Man, that’s so fucking rude.  Who gives a FUCK what you fucking think | of what the performer LOOKS like?  Was the performance good?  A | resounding "yes" is the answer.  So fuck off and go back to the | chauvanistic bozo-zone you came from.  (You must be male, because | only a broken chromosomed piece of shit would even bother to | think–and I use that term loosely–this way.) | | Heidi wow      /;    ;                                             /{__/   `’____               ___   (o)  (o  }                                           __/          :–’                                                 _    `__      Moo                       ___(o’o)                                                   (  `====’                                                     !                                      /     |    /  

OOOOO LOOK  AN INSPIRAL CARPETS FAN!!!!

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chauvanistic bozo-zone you came from.  (You must be male, because only a broken chromosomed piece of shit would even bother to think–and I use that term loosely–this way.)

Oooo…a male basher….I really hate it when some two bit cunt assaults me for being male because of the stupidity of one other male…beleive me, there are a lot of stupid females in this world too. -(CJW)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just saw Sinead Oconner on Letterman and I liked her better without hair, at least that way you could use your imagination and THINK she MIGHT be cute.  Now that I’ve seen her with hair I know for sure she’s ugly. Man, that’s so fucking rude.  Who gives a FUCK what you fucking think of what the performer LOOKS like?  Was the performance good?  A resounding "yes" is the answer.  So fuck off and go back to the chauvanistic bozo-zone you came from.  (You must be male, because only a broken chromosomed piece of shit would even bother to think–and I use that term loosely–this way.) Heidi —      So what about KEANU REEVES?  Choosing one of today’s least able (but

Anyone who’s seen Hush a Bye Baby (film) in which Sinead wears a long wig, knows that she is visually attractive. Do people always swear as much on this newsgroup. Andrew in Belfast.

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I just saw Sinead Oconner on Letterman and I liked her better without hair, at least that way you could use your imagination and THINK she MIGHT be cute.  Now that I’ve seen her with hair I know for sure she’s ugly.

Man, that’s so fucking rude.  Who gives a FUCK what you fucking think of what the performer LOOKS like?  Was the performance good?  A resounding "yes" is the answer.  So fuck off and go back to the chauvanistic bozo-zone you came from.  (You must be male, because only a broken chromosomed piece of shit would even bother to think–and I use that term loosely–this way.) Heidi —      So what about KEANU REEVES?  Choosing one of today’s least able (but

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I just saw Sinead Oconner on Letterman and I liked her better without hair, at least that way you could use your imagination and THINK she MIGHT be cute.  Now that I’ve seen her with hair I know for sure she’s ugly. Man, that’s so fucking rude.  Who gives a FUCK what you fucking think of what the performer LOOKS like?  Was the performance good?  A resounding "yes" is the answer.  So fuck off and go back to the chauvanistic bozo-zone you came from.  (You must be male, because only a broken chromosomed piece of shit would even bother to think–and I use that term loosely–this way.) Heidi

I thought she looked great.  she put on a good show.  I wish dave would have talked to her though. ryan http://www.xmission.com/~ryshaw snowboarding/NIN/flyfishing/The Jeffersons

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I just saw Sinead Oconner on Letterman and I liked her better without hair, at least that way you could use your imagination and THINK she MIGHT be cute.  Now that I’ve seen her with hair I know for sure she’s ugly.

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