Question:

There is plenty of ice out there.  Here on the West Coast it occurs from now until spring.  Usually below 15,000. The leagality issue is the source of endless debate.  The big question is what constitutes "known icing conditions".  The opinions lately have been swinging toward forcast icing as being "known icing".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions. I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Either or both, I would guess. In Severe Weather Flying (which I strongly recommend) Dennis Newton suggests that the freezing band in stratiform cloud is rarely more than 3000 ft thick, and in convective cloud rarely more than 6000 ft thick.  Above that level, the temperature is low enough so that the concentration of supercooled water droplets is low (they’re already ice). The Airmet may not be able to place that actual freezing band accurately, so it covers a deeper band. I wouldn’t want to bet my life on the freezing band being only 3000 ft thick: the Mooney I fly is about the worst icing-test-aircraft that I can imagine, and I’m certainly not tempted to try to climb through 3000 ft of freezing cloud to find out.  But it’s a useful thing to have in your mind if you encounter icing. Julian Scarfe

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.

Some would say that’s overly conservative.  They’re wrong. Actually, in a relatively high performance single like yours, you might consider poking your nose in to take a look, provided you have good options for what to do if your nose gets frostbit. A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it.  And if you don’t have a high performance airplane, you have no business sticking your nose in even if you can get out quickly, because the ice will bog you down fast. And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range.

As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip.

Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron

No, you don’t.  I came damn close myself a couple of times, and both times I thought I could make the flight VFR (once above the clouds, once below them). Michael

Response:

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed.

Excellent recount of your inadvertent adventure, man. And scary as hell. Thanks for takin the time. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??

Something like that.  See, here’s the scenario.  MEA’s are 5000 ft. Tops are 4000, freezing level is 3000, and I can count on a climb rate of 1000+ fpm up through 7000.  Under those circumstances, I might be willing to give it a go, provided I could get back in to where I was going without having to climb to the MEA.  Remember the MSA around your departure airport, and think about how you would get back in if you stick your nose in and it gets frostbit. In a situation where icing was possible but wasn’t being reported, and the MOCA was below the freezing level, I might even be tempted to give it a shot going through the potential ice unless people were reporting icing.  The idea is that I have LORAN and GPS on board, and the GPS has a power source independent of the aircraft, and the odds that I’ll be forced to descend below the freezing level (to the MOCA, where I still won’t hit anything) AND the LORAN or electrical system goes out on me AND the GPS goes out on me are so long as not to be worth considering.  So push come to shove, I can descend. This is all a risk management game – how much has to go wrong before you run out of options?  If you postulate enough simultaneous failures, eventually you have nothing left to work with and you die. But the fact is, for two independednt things to fail on the same flight, you need to be having a really bad day, so I don’t worry about it.  Ice forming when it wasn’t forecast even though there is visible moisture and temperatures below freezing?  That’s not all that common, but not unexpected either.  If you don’t plan for that you’re a moron.  Electrical failure?  Same deal.  Both in one day?  Pretty damn remote.  Handheld GPS going at the same time? Man, it just wasn’t your day.  See what I’m getting at? The idea is this – if you have visible moisture and are in subfreezing conditions, ice can form.  If all your outs depend on ice not forming somewhere under those conditions, you’re kidding yourself.  You need an out that involves either getting to where it’s above freezing or getting to where there is no visible moisture, and getting there QUICKLY. In general, if you’re on the East or West coast in winter, or in the mountains any time of year, and you have a need to fly IFR (meaning the weather won’t let you get there VFR) then you need deice.  Or you can take your chances.  Sure, there are days that are exceptions, but that’s the general rule. I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast.

Well, how far do your abilities stretch?  This is what I mean by being where you can still climb 500 fpm.  Face it, tops are not very likely to rise more than 500 fpm.  Also, if you can still do 500 fpm where you are, odds are you can go another 5000 ft up with little trouble.  The tops are not likely to go that much higher everywhere at once.  A lightly loaded C-182 should still be doing 500 fpm up at 7000 ft. I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever.

If the haze is thick enough to reduce the vis to 1 sm, well, maybe. That takes A LOT of moisture, maybe enough that it might start to come out as ice.  But I’ve yet to see visibility that poor without ceilings so low as to make going under anywhere but wide-open Midwest (and maybe even not there anymore, what with all the towers going up) way too scary even for me. Michael

Response:

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions.

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions.   I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Response:

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react,

Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours. Thanks for your observations! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Actual ice is not rare.  You will find ice in virtually every cloud below 0C on the West Coast.  There are plenty of places with ice-free clouds around 0C but they are generally not near the coast. Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??  I remember my first solo IMC.  I plunged into the clouds on climbout, expection to be IMC all the way to my destination, only to pop out on top within 30 seconds.  (not in winter of course)  What a beautiful sight! And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself.

I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast. Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can.

I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever. … Aaron

Response:

I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right?

For the legal aspects I recommend http://www.avweb.com/articles/icingb/index.html But then I’ve very rarely paid much attention to the FARs myself. Paul Bertorelli’s article in November’s IFR is also well worth a read.  It sent shivers down my spine. I have that T-shirt… Julian Scarfe

Response:

I got "page could not be found" on the sites you mentioned, but I think they are here now. http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/vvice.html and http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/nnice.html I also like http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/integrated/index.html and http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/ nice cloud tops graphs and icing reports and "ice at your intended altitude". Also the ADDS java pireps and airmets at http://adds.awc-kc.noaa.gov/projects/adds/index.html also look under the ADDS satellite icon and do the "forecast clouds" thing for your altitude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours.

The scary part is that I was a low time VFR-only pilot when I was rapidly disabused of my misconceptions.  Story follows. It was a winter day in Inidiana, and I wanted to fly.  My girlfriend wanted to eat.  I convinced her that it would be fun to go to Rochester (IN) where there was a nice restaurant right across the street from the airport.  The weather was 8000OVC and 10 mile vis – good VFR by anyone’s estimation.  When I got my briefing the briefer warned me about icing in clouds.  I pointed out that I was a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane and not planning to be in any clouds.  He told me I’d be fine. Now icing is usually most severe at temperatures above zero – the air in subzero clouds is usually too dry for any significant icing to occur.  The bases were at 8000 ft, and the ground temperatures were subfreezing.  This SHOULD have clued me in about the inversion, but I was a low time VFR-only pilot and missed the cue.  (For our European readers, I refer to zero F, which is about -18C) The Tomahawk I rented had the 125 hp engine.  The advantage was that in the cool winter air, the bigger engine was just the ticket to get us to a comfortable cruising altitude quickly.  The disadvantage was that at full power it was a thirsty beast, and for W&B reasons I elected to depart with a less than full load of fuel.  I estimated that I had about 3 hours, and the round trip would take about 1.5 hours at the power settings I would be using.  That seemed like a comfortable safety margin for day-VFR flying. The trip out and the lunch were uneventful, I hit my chekpoints perfectly, and lunch was good.  The trip back started out just fine.  Then I flew into a light rain shower. It was very light, and I could see right through it, so I really did not realize anything was wrong until I was in it.  Then I noticed (and this all happened in a matter of seconds) that the horizon was going away.  No, it was not a case of inadvertent VFR-into-IMC.  There was a layer of clear ice building on my windshield.  I made an immediate turn out of the shower.  I expect my total time in the rain was only about a minute.  But by the time I was out of it, I was at full throttle, only a little above Vy, and was gaining MAYBE 50-100 ft/min.  I also could not see through my windshield because it, like the wings, was carrying a load of clear ice.  Also, at full throttle, I now had less than an hour of fuel. I was lucky and I kept my head.  I got help from ATC, the ice eventually sublimated off (but I had a plan that would, I think, have worked even with the ice – I was getting vectors to the 10,000+ ft runway at Grissom AFB), and I made an uneventful landing with about 30 minutes of fuel in my tanks.  Had I crashed, no doubt I would have gotten a 90 for flying in known icing conditions. Thanks for your observations!

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed. Here’s another observation – weather is the most complex and open-ended area of pilot knowledge.  The amount of weather knowledge that the average pilot has when he is given a ticket is pretty minimal.  Unsurprisingly, it is also the major player in airplane crashes. Michael

Response:

There is nothing in Part 91 that specifically addresses flight in icing conditions (ignoring, of course, 91.527 which does not apply to most newsgroupies). The legal problem arises from 91.9, which refers to restrictions in the manual for the aircraft. I think common sense is a wonderful substitute for regulation, however. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly. If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Two sites that you can check out for unofficial guidance (they are experimental) are www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/nnice.html and www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/vvice. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.  And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

Response:

1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR?

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles)

It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

You expect us to trust your judgement when you willingly flew a Traumahawk ? Kidding. Agreed with everything you said. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice.

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Here’s about the extent of my cloud physics… You never *know* that you’re not going to get freezing rain, but without an inversion it’s unlikely.  If precip is forming above the freezing level it’s usually as ice.  As it falls into warmer temperatures below the freezing level it melts.  Neither are necessarily problems, over and above what you’d expecting the same cloud without the precip; the formation of precip above the freezing level can actually be a good sign, as it may be a sign that the cloud is glaciating (turning from supercooled liquid drops into ice particles). The danger comes where precipitation falls from warmer temperatures above as rain into a sub-zero layer at lower levels.  That’s freezing rain.  In my part of the world (UK), it’s an infrequent scenario, but it certainly can happen. In the mid-US, where there’s less water around to keep the lower levels warm in winter, it’s probably a more frequent occurrence. Precipitation does, however, indicate that the cloud tops are higher than they otherwise would be, if it’s convective.  In my limited experience some of the worst icing conditions are the tops of building cumulus which have not yet started producing much precip. Julian Scarfe

Response:

Thanks. This is helpful. -pw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly.   If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough.

It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right?

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s

ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. For example 2000′ overcast, 6 degrees C on the ground, will usually be above freezing right up to the cloud deck. In the clouds, it is freezing. Tops are high, say 10000AGL. Fairly common actually. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Question:

I might be in the Ormond Beach area of FLorida and I was wandering what Fly Fishing opportunities are there?  We will be down there maybe in mid May.  Thanks for the advice and help…….Ed

  vcard.vcf

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Response:

I might be in the Ormond Beach area of FLorida and I was wandering what Fly Fishing opportunities are there?  We will be down there maybe in mid May.  Thanks for the advice and help…….Ed

Mosquito Lagoon is well worth the half hour drive south. Drop me a email and I’ll send you contact info for some guides that work the area. — SJM

Response:

Question:

Putting your children first does NOT mean you have to spend every second you your life with them. Your children as well as you will benefit if your mental health is good and your marriage is strong. Don’t feel guilty about taking care of those needs. Think of going away as part of a package of good family life that includes your needs and the children’s. You are just restoring your supplies of caring and patience for when they are needed. Please don’t fall into the trap of defining yourself only as "mommy the caregiver." you are also wife, friend, and person in your own right.

Response:

Hi…I am a stay at home mom of three.  I am very active with my three small children.  Their ages are 6,2, and 1.  I enjoy every minute with them, and never leave them with a sitter.  My husband and I take them everywhere with us.  On the weekends is his only time to spend quality time with them, so we hate to get a baby-sitter.  My problem is this though…this year, we have opted to go on vacation without them.  My husbands family is going to keep them.  My 6 year old is excited because he loves getting to go to his cousins, but my other two are too young to understand when I say I’m going on vacation.  We will be gone for 6 days.  Although I am excited to spend time with my husband, I feel guilty leaving them behind.  My daughter is the 2 year old and she is always right beside me.  I feel like she will be devestated with me gone.  I want to go, but should I feel guilty about going?  Many people tell me, including my pediatrician that a stay at home mom needs a break and that it is healthy, but why do I still feel like I’m doing something selfish?  I always put my kids first and this decision I’ve made to go without them this year has made me feel terrible.  Does anyone have any good words of advice for me?  Sounds corny, but I could use some about now.  I’ve got three weeks until my trip, and I want to enjoy it as much as possible.  I’m afraid I’ll worry about the younsters the whole time. Michelle……mommy of 3

Response:

Hey you deserve a vacation but I can see how you will miss your little brood. Read this idea for traveling parents.  Maybe you can do something like it to make it a little easier for you. In the article dad was traveling and mom helped her son make him little "gifts" one for each day that dad was away.  Dad would then call and talk about the gift.  The son was able to understand when the dad was coming back by which present he had opened.  Perhaps you could put together a few special treats and plan to call on the day that they are opened.  Or something like that.  Another idea would be to keep a journal or write a letter to your children while you are away.  This could be done while on the beach etc.  You’re going to be thinking of them anyway it always seems to help me when I write it down.  Then you can share them with them at a later date or keep them for yourself as a memory of your first vacation without them.  Keep remembering that they are probably going to have a blast so you try to do the same.  Hope all works out! Enjoy! -Jodi  mom of Kacie 7/24/98

Response:

Hi…I am a stay at home mom of three.  I am very active with my three small children.  Their ages are 6,2, and 1. I want to go, but should I feel guilty about going?

Unless you plan on homeschooling them and then raising them and their families in your home, you might want to consider this the first step at letting them see the "outside world".  It may help foster their independence.

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby

Stoli! I agree with all the posters so far.  4 days is intolerable and 9 unthinkable. Most I’ve done is one night.

Response:

We contacted our local vet and the vet technician there does pet sitting. It was comforting to know that someone that worked at the vet hospital was also going to be checking on our cats every other day, if he noticed anything unusual, he would take them right to the vet. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

   Hi,  When we go on holidays, we take the 2 cats to our vet, he has a kennel  and the cats are in a run and not in a cage.  They do not like it very much, but they are used to this twice a year.  We do make up to them when we get back! They are never any problems and  they are not mad at us, to happy to go outside again.  ob. — ****    Odette Brown ** I love Cats    ***** *** La Belle Province ** Quebec ** CANADA ***   http://www.igs.net/~rathey/odette1.htm

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

My personal limit for leaving my cats alone is two nights.  Otherwise I would fret and never enjoy a minute of my trip.  Many have suggested a pet sitter, this is a great idea.  That way you will have the peace of mind knowing that your Stoli and your house are being looked after. Boarding can be stressful for a cat, it depends on the cats personality.  My Isis would probably be fine at a boarding facility, but I know my shy little Hero would just freak out!  So far, if I’ve had to be away from home for longer than two overnights, I’ve been able to coax (coerce?) friends into looking in on them.  This too could be an option for you and would likely be cheaper than a pet sitter.  You can generally get away with giving the friend a small gift from your vacation, or taking them for dinner or something Good luck with Stoli, and I hope you enjoy your vacation (wish I could go on a vacation….sigh) Claire — My email address is spam-blocked! To reply, just remove the "nospam."    |_/|                                                      (. .)                                                  /_/     =*= (     "Cats are really far out little       ____/ , ,    / ^ //       animals."                         /~____  =^= /   (|| ||)      – Marvin Gaye                     (#_#_#_)___)_)    "" ""

Response:

I, too, use a pet sitting service.  There is nothing better (except staying at home) for your cat.  They stay in a familiar environment and there is someone trustworthy to check on them every day.  Leaving them for 4-5 days on their own is not a good idea.  Too many things can happen to them when unattended.  You could come home to a disaster.

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

 I just couldn’t do it. What happens if Stoli becomes ill? four days, let alone nine days delay in getting vet treatment could be the difference between life, serious illness or death. I use a boarding cattery near where I live. The couple that run it are retired and *adore* cats. They treat the boarding cats as if they were their own. Every day, they not only clean all the runs, but spend time with the cats making a fuss of them etc.. They take contact telephone numbers in case of emergency, have vet details in case of illness, feed the cats *exactly* what they are fed at home etc., etc.. Regards, Helen S

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli!

Whenever we go out of town, we have a pet sitter come to our house. She comes in twice a day and feeds our cats, gives them fresh water, scoops the boxes, gives medicine to those that need it. We pay her for this service, but the cost is worth our peace of mind while we are gone. Try checking at pet food stores and with vets–they usually have bulletin boards with pet sitters who are in your area. Many are bonded and licensed, and good one will have references you can check. Many will also water plants, bring in the mail, turn on lights, etc. Good luck!

Response:

In the phone book, you should be able to find a pet sitter.  This is an awesome service that I use regularly when away.  A person comes in to look after your pets, water your plants, take in your mail, newspaper etc, and it’s wonderful.  Whatever service you choose, make sure you get references and credentials … Christin

Response:

I, too, use a pet sitting service.  It is GREAT!  Leaving a cat alone for 4-5 days is not a good idea.  Too many things can happen with no one to check on them.  What if they get sick?  Get into something they shouldn’t? What if they run out of food or knock over their water? Anyway, the pet sitter allows them to stay in their familiar environment with someone trustworthy to check on them.  It is well worth the money. They also take in mail, water plants, scoop litter, give medicine if necessary, feed and water.

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby

Stoli! I agree with all the posters so far.  4 days is intolerable and 9 unthinkable. Most I’ve done is one night.

Response:

We contacted our local vet and the vet technician there does pet sitting. It was comforting to know that someone that worked at the vet hospital was also going to be checking on our cats every other day, if he noticed anything unusual, he would take them right to the vet. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

   Hi,  When we go on holidays, we take the 2 cats to our vet, he has a kennel  and the cats are in a run and not in a cage.  They do not like it very much, but they are used to this twice a year.  We do make up to them when we get back! They are never any problems and  they are not mad at us, to happy to go outside again.  ob. — ****    Odette Brown ** I love Cats    ***** *** La Belle Province ** Quebec ** CANADA ***   http://www.igs.net/~rathey/odette1.htm

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

My personal limit for leaving my cats alone is two nights.  Otherwise I would fret and never enjoy a minute of my trip.  Many have suggested a pet sitter, this is a great idea.  That way you will have the peace of mind knowing that your Stoli and your house are being looked after. Boarding can be stressful for a cat, it depends on the cats personality.  My Isis would probably be fine at a boarding facility, but I know my shy little Hero would just freak out!  So far, if I’ve had to be away from home for longer than two overnights, I’ve been able to coax (coerce?) friends into looking in on them.  This too could be an option for you and would likely be cheaper than a pet sitter.  You can generally get away with giving the friend a small gift from your vacation, or taking them for dinner or something Good luck with Stoli, and I hope you enjoy your vacation (wish I could go on a vacation….sigh) Claire — My email address is spam-blocked! To reply, just remove the "nospam."    |_/|                                                      (. .)                                                  /_/     =*= (     "Cats are really far out little       ____/ , ,    / ^ //       animals."                         /~____  =^= /   (|| ||)      – Marvin Gaye                     (#_#_#_)___)_)    "" ""

Response:

I, too, use a pet sitting service.  There is nothing better (except staying at home) for your cat.  They stay in a familiar environment and there is someone trustworthy to check on them every day.  Leaving them for 4-5 days on their own is not a good idea.  Too many things can happen to them when unattended.  You could come home to a disaster.

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

 I just couldn’t do it. What happens if Stoli becomes ill? four days, let alone nine days delay in getting vet treatment could be the difference between life, serious illness or death. I use a boarding cattery near where I live. The couple that run it are retired and *adore* cats. They treat the boarding cats as if they were their own. Every day, they not only clean all the runs, but spend time with the cats making a fuss of them etc.. They take contact telephone numbers in case of emergency, have vet details in case of illness, feed the cats *exactly* what they are fed at home etc., etc.. Regards, Helen S

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli!

Whenever we go out of town, we have a pet sitter come to our house. She comes in twice a day and feeds our cats, gives them fresh water, scoops the boxes, gives medicine to those that need it. We pay her for this service, but the cost is worth our peace of mind while we are gone. Try checking at pet food stores and with vets–they usually have bulletin boards with pet sitters who are in your area. Many are bonded and licensed, and good one will have references you can check. Many will also water plants, bring in the mail, turn on lights, etc. Good luck!

Response:

In the phone book, you should be able to find a pet sitter.  This is an awesome service that I use regularly when away.  A person comes in to look after your pets, water your plants, take in your mail, newspaper etc, and it’s wonderful.  Whatever service you choose, make sure you get references and credentials … Christin

Response:

I, too, use a pet sitting service.  It is GREAT!  Leaving a cat alone for 4-5 days is not a good idea.  Too many things can happen with no one to check on them.  What if they get sick?  Get into something they shouldn’t? What if they run out of food or knock over their water? Anyway, the pet sitter allows them to stay in their familiar environment with someone trustworthy to check on them.  It is well worth the money. They also take in mail, water plants, scoop litter, give medicine if necessary, feed and water.

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

Response:

We’re leaving for our vacation up north tomorrow.  I can’t wait!!  We’ll be spending most of our time out in the boat fishing.  And catching some rays.  I don’t want to spend all of my time in the bathroom. So hopefully my Lomotil will do the trick for me!  I got my doc to up the dose for me.  Thanks for the info Maryjo.  : )  I hope every one has a happy and healthy week like I’m hoping for!!  I can’t wait to get away!!!! Take Care, Sherry  ( who always says she the fishing pro in the family )  ; )

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Sherry, Have fun!! and catch lots of fish.  ~~~~Pat Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Thanks I hope to.  I love it in northern Mn.  The lakes are great, just getting back to nature.  There’s nothing more beautiful than sitting in a boat watching an eagle fly over!!  I just have to go to work for a few hours and than wer’e off!  For a whole week….Nothing but sun and fun….I don’t have to worry about what my clients want…just sit in the boat fishing for hours…catching fish and catching some rays….I hope everyone has a happy and healthy week…Just like I am hoping for….  : ) Take Care, Sherry   ( I still say I’m the fishing pro in the family )   ; )

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Sherry- Enjoy your trip! Tracy

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! TELL ME!!!!!!! Rebecca Who wants to be invited to the wedding – I’m good for a gift (what can I say – I read too many romance novels)

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There is no wedding but if you send a gift and we like it we may reconsider. — DAWN/Bonnie

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Hummmm, the perfect gift for two IBDers – his and her bidets, silver plated toilet paper holder, crystal toilet plunger, monogrammed pill boxes, the possibilities are endless. Rebecca No wedding, no gift — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is no wedding but if you send a gift and we like it we may reconsider. — DAWN/Bonnie

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Wow it is a small world.

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— DAWN/Bonnie

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ALRIGHT – WAIT A MINUTE! What’s going on here???!!! Rebecca <BG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — DAWN/Bonnie

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I went to New Orleans and met a great friend from this news group. And I had a wonderful time.

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What a small world!  That is exactly what I did!  I had a wonderful time too.  We will have to compare pictures sometime. — DAWN/Bonnie

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I am going on vacation too for 6 days. Wouldn’t it be funny if we went to the same place. Darren, Didn’t see your message until today.  Where did you go? — DAWN/Bonnie

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  I’m off to Alaska in a couple of hours.  I’ll be gone until after July 4th.  You guys all have fun without me.  Even bogeyman.   Just in case there’s anyone I’ve neglected to alienate so far, I have to pack and won’t be checking back in before I leave, so I won’t see any bon voyage messages.

Well, hell, Rumple-chen, I’m posting one anyway. Haven’t been alienated yet! Say hi to wonderful, big, beautiful, friendly Alaska, where men are men, and women are actually considered people! If they would only dump their corrupt senators and governor! What a falling-off is there, from the late, much-lamented Senator Ernest Gruening, who was one of only two courageous, principled members of Congress to vote against the Tonkin Bay Resolution — the Big Lie that ended up killing so many GIs and Vietnamese. Read about him at, inter alia: http://lists.village.virginia.edu/lists_archive/sixties-l/1332.html — Polar

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   I’m off to Alaska in a couple of hours.  I’ll be gone until after July 4th.  You guys all have fun without me.  Even bogeyman.    Just in case there’s anyone I’ve neglected to alienate so far, I have to pack and won’t be checking back in before I leave, so I won’t see any bon voyage messages.

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Question:

An interesting novel that I found with some great fly-fishing sequences. Not only about fishing, a murder mystery, but ties fishing in as a part of life – right on! Its an E-Book. http://www.spiritvirtualbooks.com/Trone.htm Learn the recipe for a hot new fly. "The Blonde Armpit"  :)

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http://www.getfishy.com/picks for the top ten fly fishing books.  –ed – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An interesting novel that I found with some great fly-fishing sequences. Not only about fishing, a murder mystery, but ties fishing in as a part of life – right on! Its an E-Book. http://www.spiritvirtualbooks.com/Trone.htm Learn the recipe for a hot new fly. "The Blonde Armpit"  :)

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Question:

We have 3 balloons off the back of the boat with live bait fishing for Kings.

Can anybody tell me what this means? I’m not being able to picture the balloon part. Nets? Actual balloons? Just curious–thanks. Mart

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We have 3 balloons off the back of the boat with live bait fishing for Kings. Can anybody tell me what this means? I’m not being able to picture the balloon part. Nets? Actual balloons? Just curious–thanks. Mart

Sure. He’s using partially inflated balloons as "corks" to float his live baits within a certain range of the top of the water. The balloons are easy to see and when a smoker takes the bait and runs, the balloon goes under. This is a common tactic for bass fishermen, too. They’ll attach a nice live shiner to a hook, tie a balloon a couple of feet above it and let the bass gobble the shiner and take the balloon under. Balloons also present one with a way to take advantage of wind or current. There’s also kite fishing. — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Ignorance or Apathy?  I don’t know and I don’t care.

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Path: lobby01.news.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.

cwix.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!world net.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.boats Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.77.208.219 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Classic example, I’m out on Pasco #1 off Tarpon Springs, Florida today.  We have 3 balloons off the back of the boat with live bait fishing for Kings. What pulls up behind us?  Yes a Trophy, your average dimwit, amateur within inches of our balloons.  After I had a couple of choice words with the captain (retard) we pulled off to a better area….with no Trophys around and managed to bag two keeper grouper.  So you see now why I JUST LOVE TROPHYS Rob

Rob, If he were driving a Hatteras or other mega, overpriced boat, would his move have been any more acceptable?  No, of course not. I had an Ocean Alexander skipper drift into my boat that was moored and unattended.  He hit it rail to rail and neither boat sustained much damage but do I hate Ocean Alexander boats because of it?  Not hardly. Focus your anger at the novice who didn’t know what he was doing, not at his fine, quality made, very reliable, structurly sound, efficient and absolutely beautiful boat!!! Bill Landsborough "A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions." Proverbs 18:2

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Or even know how to put it on.

Excellent Nathan! Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach, Florida "Lie ? Me ? Never!  No, no, no, the truth is far too much fun !" – Captain Hook

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By the way, there is a downside to using balloons. Many of them are discarded in the water and unfortunately some sea creatures that eat jellyfish (like turtles) snarf them down and can’t digest them. They die. This used to happen with condoms, I suppose, but no turtle with a brain would go near any of those disease-laden wrappers.

Or even know how to put it on.

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Thank you. I appreciate your willingness to supply me with helpful information despite my occasional indignation at your whimsical contrarian nature. I have observed this civil trait in you repeatedly and I respect it. I think balloons and kites are beyond me, though I do like to picture showing up at my normal fishing spots with such equipment, and fastening on a fly, worm, little minnow, or kernel of corn. Mart

By the way, there is a downside to using balloons. Many of them are discarded in the water and unfortunately some sea creatures that eat jellyfish (like turtles) snarf them down and can’t digest them. They die. This used to happen with condoms, I suppose, but no turtle with a brain would go near any of those disease-laden wrappers. — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Gee, I wonder what this key does.

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Thank you. I appreciate your willingness to supply me with helpful information despite my occasional indignation at your whimsical contrarian nature. I have observed this civil trait in you repeatedly and I respect it. I think balloons and kites are beyond me, though I do like to picture showing up at my normal fishing spots with such equipment, and fastening on a fly, worm, little minnow, or kernel of corn. Mart

Mart, Believe it or not, they even sell different sized kites to use depending on the wind conditions!  I don’t bother with kites, but I’ve been fishing with a guy who does and it works quite well. What Harry didn’t mention is you use the kite while drifting.  BTW, shore fishermen also use kites to get their bait out farther than they can cast… Depending on the direction the wind is blowing, of course.  :) Dennis

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sure. He’s using partially inflated balloons as "corks" to float his live baits within a certain range of the top of the water… Thanks. Same idea as the little still fishing plastic/cork/wood bobbers we sometimes use up here, only bigger and inflatable? Yes. But much more visible. It’s hard to see many corks or floats out in the ocean where the waves are. Also, by only partially inflating, a part of it slides under the water easier… There’s also kite fishing. I’ll bite on the kite: real up in the air kites? Or fishing for hawks? Mart You run out a fishing kite and then attach your fishing line with a live bait on the line. The kite keeps the bait at the surface, making those friendly struggling sounds, attracting fish. But the bait also has access to the water and can breathe. It works very well for surface feeders.

Thank you. I appreciate your willingness to supply me with helpful information despite my occasional indignation at your whimsical contrarian nature. I have observed this civil trait in you repeatedly and I respect it. I think balloons and kites are beyond me, though I do like to picture showing up at my normal fishing spots with such equipment, and fastening on a fly, worm, little minnow, or kernel of corn. Mart

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Sure. He’s using partially inflated balloons as "corks" to float his live baits within a certain range of the top of the water… Thanks. Same idea as the little still fishing plastic/cork/wood bobbers we sometimes use up here, only bigger and inflatable?

Yes. But much more visible. It’s hard to see many corks or floats out in the ocean where the waves are. Also, by only partially inflating, a part of it slides under the water easier… There’s also kite fishing. I’ll bite on the kite: real up in the air kites? Or fishing for hawks? Mart

You run out a fishing kite and then attach your fishing line with a live bait on the line. The kite keeps the bait at the surface, making those friendly struggling sounds, attracting fish. But the bait also has access to the water and can breathe. It works very well for surface feeders.

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Sure. He’s using partially inflated balloons as "corks" to float his live baits within a certain range of the top of the water…

Thanks. Same idea as the little still fishing plastic/cork/wood bobbers we sometimes use up here, only bigger and inflatable? There’s also kite fishing.

I’ll bite on the kite: real up in the air kites? Or fishing for hawks? Mart – - – - – - – - – - – - "One morning when the wind was from the west, Stuart put on his sailor suit and his sailor hat, took his spyglass down from the shelf, and set out for a walk, full of the joy of life and the fear of dogs."

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Classic example, I’m out on Pasco #1 off Tarpon Springs, Florida today.  We have 3 balloons off the back of the boat with live bait fishing for Kings. What pulls up behind us?  Yes a Trophy, your average dimwit, amateur within inches of our balloons.  After I had a couple of choice words with the captain (retard) we pulled off to a better area….with no Trophys around and managed to bag two keeper grouper.  So you see now why I JUST LOVE TROPHYS Rob

Maybe he wanted to transfer his flag to your boat in case his began to sink? — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Accordion: a bagpipe with pleats.

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Classic example, I’m out on Pasco #1 off Tarpon Springs, Florida today.  We have 3 balloons off the back of the boat with live bait fishing for Kings. What pulls up behind us?  Yes a Trophy, your average dimwit, amateur within inches of our balloons.  After I had a couple of choice words with the captain (retard) we pulled off to a better area….with no Trophys around and managed to bag two keeper grouper.  So you see now why I JUST LOVE TROPHYS Rob

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Question:

Just moved into the state and looking for fly fishing clues around the Ogden area.  I would appreciate any assistance. Al

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Hi Al I’m sure there are clubs in your area. Just call the Federation of Fly Fishers at 406-585-7592 and get the information of the club nearest you. This is the time of the year when most clubs start their fall meeting. Good luck & … Tight Lines – Al Beatty Whiting Farms – Hoffman Hackle Al Beatty2

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Question:

Greetings; Going to be in Banff at the end of August – business trip – but will stay longer if there is any good fly fishing. Any recommendations ?

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Greetings; Going to be in Banff at the end of August – business trip – but will stay longer if there is any good fly fishing. Any recommendations ?

I found that the folks at the Green Drake Flyshop in the town just outside the park gate (I’ll think of the name in a moment) were very helpful. I stopped in for some suggestions and they were generous with their time and advice. I spoke to several people, including John Sims. Rick Pollack

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Greetings; Going to be in Banff at the end of August – business trip – but will

stay longer if there is any good fly fishing. Any recommendations ? Green Drake Flyshop in Canmore.

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The infamous Bow River flows through Banff and winds it’s way east through Calgary. If you are into travelling just a bit south of Calgary. some of the best Trout Flyfishing in the world exists there. Well worth the effort and time. See the following WEB site for some info.   http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Adventures/Bow_River/index.html I have fished the Dead Man Flats area which is just east of Canmore (and therefore Banff). Nice area if water levels are down, which they will be when you get there. Travel 10 minutes or so east of Canmore until you see the gas stations on the left. Behind them to the west is a campground. park there and head north to the river (100-200 meters or so). Work your way up and down the river and enjoy. This was one of my old fishing holes when I lived up in that area. Stew Greetings; Going to be in Banff at the end of August – business trip – but will stay longer if there is any good fly fishing. Any recommendations ?

– #  D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." #    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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Question:

I can beat that one – I caught a fly that I lost two weeks prior on the Salmon River in upstate NY right in the eye!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I once caught a dead raccoon on a nymph…someone had set a steel-jawed trap which got the raccoon by the creek and it had drowned. Strange catches I’ve had, A Swallow who took my dry fly off the surface of the water. This was very interesting, Them little birds put up a pretty good fight. And yes it was catch and release for this critter. On another outing, I caught a Mud Hen, simular to a duck, but with a pointed beak. Caught this critter on the foot on a streamer. Guess we got snagged up together while he was swimming under water. Thought I had hooked into a record fish before the bird came jumping out of the water with my streamer tangled in its feet. Took me right down to the backing and then some before breaking the #5 tippet.

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I once caught a dead raccoon on a nymph…someone had set a steel-jawed trap which got the raccoon by the creek and it had drowned. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Strange catches I’ve had, A Swallow who took my dry fly off the surface of the water. This was very interesting, Them little birds put up a pretty good fight. And yes it was catch and release for this critter. On another outing, I caught a Mud Hen, simular to a duck, but with a pointed beak. Caught this critter on the foot on a streamer. Guess we got snagged up together while he was swimming under water. Thought I had hooked into a record fish before the bird came jumping out of the water with my streamer tangled in its feet. Took me right down to the backing and then some before breaking the #5 tippet.

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I caught a bat on a dry fly after he picked it up off the water.

I, too, hooked a bat on a dry fly – on my back cast. It crash landed under a huge overhanging Sycamore next to a cutbank, and was immediately grabbed by a huge brown trout. This was on the East Branch of the Delaware below Shinhopple. I was about 12 years old at the time. I’m 53 now, and still trying to come up with a recipe for a "batfly" I can actually cast. Regards, Dennis Loveland, CO

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My strangest catch happened when I technically wasn’t even fishing. Years ago, my friend Walt and I and our wives were camping at a high sierra lake and he and I were fishing from a boat. We quit fishing when it got dark and headed back toward camp, and in the total darkness were following the snowbanks visible on shore as reference points. Being this dark, I was being cautious (and cold) and had the motor at a real low speed. As we were slowly moving along, we suddenly heard a thump as something  landed in the boat and began thrashing around. We turned on the flashlight only to find a 10" rainbow had attempted to commit suicide by jumping into the boat. We were both stunned and began laughing and asked each other if we could believe what we just saw happen. Of course, our wives didn’t believe a word of it and accused us of working overtime on a good "fishing tale". To this day Walt and I crack up whenever we talk about it. FS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My strangest catch is actually my wife’s. We were bait-fishing for bluegill in Wisconsin twelve years ago (before I learned fly fishing).  She was using a little 3 foot  kid’s rod with a Zebco 202 Jr. reel. She hooked a little bait stealer bluegill about 2 inches long.  as she brought it over the side of the row boat, I saw something out of the corner of my eye flying over the side of the boat, in pursuit of the little bluegill.  It was long and thin with a very large mouth filled with teeth. It landed in between us…right on top of my open tackle box (there is a lesson in that)  and thrashed around. Thinking it a snake, I almost jumped out of the boat!  But it turned out to be a 25 1/2 inch Northern Pike!  Since we caught it "on the fly"  I guess you could call it "fly" fishing. Tight lines…… Ken Wells Saturday when I went fishing, I managed to wrap my leader around a dragon fly while it was going by. I was so astounded I just stood there and watched the dragon fly go around in circles. Finally the dragon fly landed in the stream, and when it did a bass tried to jump on it, but I guess that helped untangle the dragon fly and both bass and dragon fly went on their way. I did catch a lot of nice small mouth bass and panfish too. I know this sounds like a fish story, but it is true.

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I had a similar experience yesterday.  I was casting a wooly bugger to a decent largemouth I had spotted hiding under a tallish bridge.  On my second or third sidearm cast, a swallow went zipping by just in time to have my tippet about 4 inches up from my fly land across its back.  He took my fly 6-7 feet off course before slipping out from under my leader. Come to think of it, that may have been the best fight I had all day. : Saturday when I went fishing, I managed to wrap my leader around a : dragon fly while it was going by. I was so astounded I just stood there : and watched the dragon fly go around in circles. Finally the dragon : fly landed in the stream, and when it did a bass tried to jump on it, : but I guess that helped untangle the dragon fly and both bass and dragon : fly went on their way. : I did catch a lot of nice small mouth bass and panfish too. : I know this sounds like a fish story, but it is true. —                        http://members.tripod.com/~trunculo/index

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Strange catches I’ve had, A Swallow who took my dry fly off the surface of the water. This was very interesting, Them little birds put up a pretty good fight. And yes it was catch and release for this critter. On another outing, I caught a Mud Hen, simular to a duck, but with a pointed beak. Caught this critter on the foot on a streamer. Guess we got snagged up together while he was swimming under water. Thought I had hooked into a record fish before the bird came jumping out of the water with my streamer tangled in its feet. Took me right down to the backing and then some before breaking the #5 tippet.

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Saturday when I went fishing, I managed to wrap my leader around a dragon fly while it was going by. I was so astounded I just stood there and watched the dragon fly go around in circles. Finally the dragon fly landed in the stream, and when it did a bass tried to jump on it, but I guess that helped untangle the dragon fly and both bass and dragon fly went on their way. I did catch a lot of nice small mouth bass and panfish too. I know this sounds like a fish story, but it is true.

John I was fishing off of Bronte pier, chuck clios on a spinning rig.  I was tossing out as far as I could, which produced a big belly of mono in the air.  A seagull flew into the belly and got himself all wrapped up.  I actually had to play him like a fish and land him where a few spectators and I, could cut him loose. I’ve also had seagulls pick up surface plugs, then drop them when I yanked real hard.  Once I also beaned a seagull unintentionally with a red devil, when I was a kid. The seagull problem has drpped off now that I flyfish only, but I’m still waiting for a swallow or bat to pick off my Henryville on the backcast. Peter

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Strange catches I’ve had, A Swallow who took my dry fly off the surface of the water. This was very interesting, Them little birds put up a pretty good fight. And yes it was catch and release for this critter. On another outing, I caught a Mud Hen, simular to a duck, but with a pointed beak. Caught this critter on the foot on a streamer. Guess we got snagged up together while he was swimming under water. Thought I had hooked into a record fish before the bird came jumping out of the water with my streamer tangled in its feet. Took me right down to the backing and then some before breaking the #5 tippet.

I have caught a cormorant (large black sea bird) on a herring cutplug, and a seagull the same way. I have also caught a river otter on a Squamish Poacher pattern on an eight weight. You want to see a good fight! unbelievable! The tough part was trying to get the hook(barbless) out of his nose without getting bit. I couldn’t do it. Fortunately the hook was only caught in a bit of skin on top of his nose and eventually pulled out. He had a sore nose but I don’t think he was any worse for it. I think he’ll have a closer look at any big shrimp in the Thompson river before biting though. I also caught a bat on a Tom Thumb, but thats a different story.

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Saturday when I went fishing, I managed to wrap my leader around a dragon fly while it was going by. I was so astounded I just stood there          <<snip I was fishing off of Bronte pier, chuck clios on a spinning rig.  I was tossing out as far as I could, which produced a big belly of mono in the air.  A seagull flew into the belly and got himself all wrapped up.

       <<snip The seagull problem has drpped off now that I flyfish only, but I’m still waiting for a swallow or bat to pick off my Henryville on the backcast. Peter

I believe I hve related this tale to ROFF before, but two years ago while on the Northwest Branch of the Potomac, I had a bat take a White Wulff on the backcast.  I unknowingly set the hook as I started the rod forward. thinking that I had snagged some vegetation, at first, I was surprised…no alarmed to see this bat suddenly take off out of the water trailing my line.  This certainly got my heart rate up.  Not wanting to drown the poor beast, I made my way to shore and slowly pulled the bat in. It was of course all in a panic, and finally got the line tangled in some low brush, and fell to the ground.  It was a little thing, not much bigger than a golf ball with wings.  Now, I didn’t want the creature to spend have to live with a yard of mono trailing behind, but I didn’t want to get bit either (visions of rabies or some other horrid infection flashed through my mind).  Another fisherman on the scene covered the bat with his net, I clipped and untangled the line, he gently shook the animal out of the net, and we sprinted about 10 yards away.  In a minute or two the bat flew away, and I called it a day. Paul Price, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow Dept. Microbiology and Immunology School of Medicine University of Maryland at Baltimore

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My strangest catch is actually my wife’s. We were bait-fishing for bluegill in Wisconsin twelve years ago (before I learned fly fishing).  She was using a little 3 foot  kid’s rod with a Zebco 202 Jr. reel. She hooked a little bait stealer bluegill about 2 inches long.  as she brought it over the side of the row boat, I saw something out of the corner of my eye flying over the side of the boat, in pursuit of the little bluegill.  It was long and thin with a very large mouth filled with teeth. It landed in between us…right on top of my open tackle box (there is a lesson in that)  and thrashed around. Thinking it a snake, I almost jumped out of the boat!  But it turned out to be a 25 1/2 inch Northern Pike!  Since we caught it "on the fly"  I guess you could call it "fly" fishing. Tight lines…… Ken Wells – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Saturday when I went fishing, I managed to wrap my leader around a dragon fly while it was going by. I was so astounded I just stood there and watched the dragon fly go around in circles. Finally the dragon fly landed in the stream, and when it did a bass tried to jump on it, but I guess that helped untangle the dragon fly and both bass and dragon fly went on their way. I did catch a lot of nice small mouth bass and panfish too. I know this sounds like a fish story, but it is true.

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Saturday when I went fishing, I managed to wrap my leader around a dragon fly while it was going by. I was so astounded I just stood there and watched the dragon fly go around in circles. Finally the dragon fly landed in the stream, and when it did a bass tried to jump on it, but I guess that helped untangle the dragon fly and both bass and dragon fly went on their way. I did catch a lot of nice small mouth bass and panfish too. I know this sounds like a fish story, but it is true.

Never lassoed a dragonfly, but did catch a bat while fishing at night for bass. he didn’t care much for the net when I landed him. dewayne

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I caught a bat on a dry fly after he picked it up off the water.  Wasn’t as nice or brave as the other folks who have posted here.  I cut the thing loose with about 4 feet of line still attached.  I’m pretty sure it drown.  I also nailed a bat with my rod on my forward cast.  THWACK! Scared the heck out of me.  He ended up in the water about 20 feet away. I don’t think he made it either. Brian

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Is this bait fishing ?!!!

 I don’t know – it could be proxy fishing. You were flyfishing when you cast, and you pulled out a fish hooked up on you’re fly. What happened in between casting and landing was entirely up to the fish. To the charge of bait fishing…..Not guilty:-) Regards, — Bill

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writes       Mr. Endicott was clearly flyfishing, and shall be absolved of guilt.        The <bluegill, on the other hand, is in real trouble.

I believe the bluegill was guilty of soliciting! — Bill

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Now, I didn’t want the creature to spend have to live with a yard of mono trailing behind, but I didn’t want to get bit either (visions of rabies or some other horrid infection flashed through my mind).   Paul Price, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow Dept. Microbiology and Immunology School of Medicine University of Maryland at Baltimore

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing! A lot of knowledge can be terrifying! — Bill

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Never lassoed a dragonfly, but did catch a bat while fishing at night for bass. he didn’t care much for the net when I landed him.

I was talking to some fisher friend in Mid Wales, and one related a tale about fishing for salmon using a bunch of worms.  The tippet was joined to the cast by a large loop to loop and the whole set up was dunked up and down in a deep pool.  On the change of direction from up to down, the loops opened up and a salmon got "lassoed" in one of the loops. You may ask was *that* bait fishing! — Bill

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The seagull problem has drpped off now that I flyfish only, but I’m still waiting for a swallow or bat to pick off my Henryville on the backcast.

 Do you think the seagulls have learned that you spell trouble?…:-) I’ve had bats dive after a small Mepp spinner while evening fishing, but thankfully never hooked one. — Bill

Response:

William Endicott writes:

That story brings about a question: While fishing the local Park pond I hooked a 2 inch Bluegill by mistake. That Bluegill was immediately swallowed by a 6 pound Bass. This has happened previously with the Bass spitting the Bluegill out on the first jump.  However, on this occasion the fly disconnected from the Bluegill and hooked the Bass !!!  I then proceeded to catch the Bass on my 7′ 3wt bluegill rod. Is this bait fishing ?!!! Answer:         Mr. Endicott was clearly flyfishing, and shall be absolved of guilt.           The <bluegill, on the other hand, is in real trouble.

Response:

Sounds like a fish story to me. —                                     Jeff Olsen If you don"t know your rights,                                            you have none. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – William Endicott writes: That story brings about a question: While fishing the local Park pond I hooked a 2 inch Bluegill by mistake. That Bluegill was immediately swallowed by a 6 pound Bass. This has happened previously with the Bass spitting the Bluegill out on the first jump.  However, on this occasion the fly disconnected from the Bluegill and hooked the Bass !!!  I then proceeded to catch the Bass on my 7′ 3wt bluegill rod. Is this bait fishing ?!!! Answer:    Mr. Endicott was clearly flyfishing, and shall be absolved of guilt.      The <bluegill, on the other hand, is in real trouble.

Response:

I have had gar and catfish chase small sunfish I caught.  Haven’t been lucky enough to have a bass chase it. Runt d:P – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That story brings about a question: While fishing the local Park pond I hooked a 2 inch Bluegill by mistake. That Bluegill was immediately swallowed by a 6 pound Bass. This has happened previously with the Bass spitting the Bluegill out on the first jump.  However, on this occasion the fly disconnected from the Bluegill and hooked the Bass !!!  I then proceeded to catch the Bass on my 7′ 3wt bluegill rod. Is this bait fishing ?!!! Bill — William Endicott Saturday when I went fishing, I managed to wrap my leader around a dragon fly while it was going by. I was so astounded I just stood there and watched the dragon fly go around in circles. Finally the dragon fly landed in the stream, and when it did a bass tried to jump on it, but I guess that helped untangle the dragon fly and both bass and dragon fly went on their way. I did catch a lot of nice small mouth bass and panfish too. I know this sounds like a fish story, but it is true.

Response:

That story brings about a question: While fishing the local Park pond I hooked a 2 inch Bluegill by mistake. That Bluegill was immediately swallowed by a 6 pound Bass. This has happened previously with the Bass spitting the Bluegill out on the first jump.  However, on this occasion the fly disconnected from the Bluegill and hooked the Bass !!!  I then proceeded to catch the Bass on my 7′ 3wt bluegill rod. Is this bait fishing ?!!! Bill — William Endicott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Saturday when I went fishing, I managed to wrap my leader around a dragon fly while it was going by. I was so astounded I just stood there and watched the dragon fly go around in circles. Finally the dragon fly landed in the stream, and when it did a bass tried to jump on it, but I guess that helped untangle the dragon fly and both bass and dragon fly went on their way. I did catch a lot of nice small mouth bass and panfish too. I know this sounds like a fish story, but it is true.

Response:

That story brings about a question: While fishing the local Park pond I hooked a 2 inch Bluegill by mistake. That Bluegill was immediately swallowed by a 6 pound Bass. This has happened previously with the Bass spitting the Bluegill out on the first jump.  However, on this occasion the fly disconnected from the Bluegill and hooked the Bass !!!  I then proceeded to catch the Bass on my 7′ 3wt bluegill rod. Is this bait fishing ?!!! Bill

Bill:   Of course it’s bait fishing, and you are hereby and herewith summarily dismissed from FFF, TU and all other alphabetized organizations.  By the way, that 2 inch bluegill is right up there with my normal catches.                      Mark Faulkner

Response:

<<That story brings about a question: While fishing the local Park pond I hooked a 2 inch Bluegill by mistake. That Bluegill was immediately swallowed by a 6 pound Bass. This has happened previously with the Bass spitting the Bluegill out on the first jump.  However, on this occasion the fly disconnected from the Bluegill and hooked the Bass !!!  I then proceeded to catch the Bass on my 7′ 3wt bluegill rod. Is this bait fishing ?!!! Bill — William Endicott I had a similar experience on my favorite trout river in British Columbia a few years back.  A thunder storm was rapidly rolling in.  Just before all heck broke loose, the fish started rising like crazy.  I was casting a million miles an hour trying to catch that last fish before I ran for cover.  A little 3 inch trout took the fly and as I was reeling it in, a huge rainbow came out of the water and dove down on it.  He missed the fish but continued to chase it.  I was so mesmerized by the whole event, I didn’t even think to stop reeling and let him take the little fish.  Finally, the big fish turned away about 5 feet from me.   Mike

Response:

That story brings about a question: While fishing the local Park pond I hooked a 2 inch Bluegill by mistake. That Bluegill was immediately swallowed by a 6 pound Bass. This has happened previously with the Bass spitting the Bluegill out on the first jump.  However, on this occasion the fly disconnected from the Bluegill and hooked the Bass !!!  I then proceeded to catch the Bass on my 7′ 3wt bluegill rod. Is this bait fishing ?!!! Bill

Yup.  You’re busted.  Turn in all your FF’ing gear.   Send it to me and I’ll send you a trotline and a good doughball recipe. Bob Scott

Response:

I know this sounds like a fish story, but it is true.

You know the difference between a Fairy Tale and a Fish Story?  Well, the Fairy Tale begins, "Once upon a time", and the Fish Story begins, (holding hands at least two feet apart) "Now this is no shit"! Yippee Tie One On! AuSable1

Response:

Question:

There is a new product out on the market which allows spinning and spincast anglers to attach a length of fly line to mono and fly fish…has any one tried this product or done this themselves?  Any advice on how to fish doing this? — Pierre                     There can be only one!!!!                             |    

There goes the neighbourhood!   <g Peter

Response:

There goes the neighbourhood!   <g Peter

Uh huh.  I just hope it’s not legal to use food stamps to buy them. Bob

Response:

Have you ever considered the possibility of using a fly rod to cast flys?

Response:

uneloquently put it: Uh huh.  I just hope it’s not legal to use food stamps to buy them. Bob Sorry buddy, I don’t usually flame people but that was a total dick response, even if you were just kidding.  Get a life. Kristina Go UT Lady Vols!!!

Response:

uneloquently put it: Uh huh.  I just hope it’s not legal to use food stamps to buy them. Bob Sorry buddy, I don’t usually flame people but that was a total dick response, even if you were just kidding.  Get a life. Kristina

So what do you mean… that I offended you, and that’s wrong, so you wrote an offensive message to me, and that’s right?  What interesting "standards" you have. Bob Scott

Response:

So what do you mean… that I offended you, and that’s wrong, so you wrote an offensive message to me, and that’s right?  What interesting "standards" you have. Bob Scott

Yes he’s right. Balance has now been restored you dick.

Response:

There is a new product out on the market which allows spinning and spincast anglers to attach a length of fly line to mono and fly fish…has any one tried this product or done this themselves?  Any advice on how to fish doing this? — Pierre                          There can be only one!!!!                              |    

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Due to the assumption that most people reading this news group are quite versed in FF and their needs in regard to the sport, please entertain me with answering these questions in regard to what would you want to see in a FF Shop?   Listed below are some areas that I have found to be lacking in some stores I have visited.  Please tell me if you think this would be of interest to fly fishers.  If not elaborate on what should be done to make it more useful to a FF customer. Thanks. *Sales staff-knowledgable, yet friendly. *A comfortable seating area with reading materials (i.e. books that are for sale in the shop and current FF magazines publications.  Also a t.v. for viewing videos being sold in the shop.) *Early hours on the weekends (i.e. opening at 5am) *Late hours on the weekdays (i.e. closing at 8pm) *Customers can view FF on the internet with a terminal set up in the shop and can get print outs from BBS and newsgroups. *An outdoor area to have a chance to cast a rod before purchasing. *Loaner equipment, in order to try out a rod to make sure it