Question:

Fished with Capt. Dave Dudley for a 4 hour trip.  Headed out of Oregon Inlet to the ocean side and about 6 miles north and a quarter mile off the beach.  Stripers were scattered but managed 5 small fish 15 to 18 lbs. Will try one more time before the water temp gets too low for a decent fish.  Reports from the Sound indicate plenty of 3-8 pounders still being taken. Fish are taking LARGE Halfandhalfs and Deceivers (at least 8 inches). Capt Dave is an excellent guide specializing in fly fishing and light tackle. Spotted a nice whale in the area and rode along side for a bit. Great to look at but stink big time. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!!!

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time, pack the 40-weight rod and some #54 diatom imitations……backing should be substantial as well<g. Report warmed up the day for me, ice-bound in central PA.                                  Tom

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Question:

Hello all; Looking for recommendations for a good smallmouth streams in the King of Prussia, Pennsylvania area.  I will be in the Hatboro/Philadelphia area on business Thursday and plan on a little fly fishing Thursday night and Friday.  I will be wading.  Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Joe

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A decent smallie area is the Perkiomen watershed park at routes 73 and 29 just outside of Collegeville (its in Schwenksville to be technical). Another area is the Evansburg park area on Germantown Pike. I can give you better directions if either sound appealing. Ron

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all; Looking for recommendations for a good smallmouth streams in the King of Prussia, Pennsylvania area.  I will be in the Hatboro/Philadelphia area on business Thursday and plan on a little fly fishing Thursday night and Friday.  I will be wading.  Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Joe

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Reading G’s nicely written posts about a tough caddis hatch and RW’s response (which I happen to agree with), got me thinking about a very versatile and simple tie I use alot during lower water conditions. I don’t like to change flies. I feel that, most of the time, if you present the right sized fly IN THE WAY THE FISH WANT IT, you will have more success. More success than using the "right" fly presented slightly wrong. This is a debate that has gone on as long as people have been fly fishing and I’m just stating my take on it. I’d rather use my time making changes in presentation than in changing flies. The tie is as simple as can be and is nothing special.  It is very drab to look at and, for this reason, will never be popular. Its strength is its versatility. The tie has a scraggly body of dubbing. I often use an antron mix but I’m not sure this is important. The wing consists of sparsely tied, somewhat short Elk hair. I usually use a light color because it is easier to see. No hackle is used and the head is just the thread from wrapping down the ends of the Elk hair. That’s it. In the low water conditions, when I generally use it, I mainly fish a size 18 but also use it in a 20 and a 16. The fly can be effective during a variety of hatches.  I used a size 18 successfully while I fished for about an hour this AM during a Trico spinner fall. A 20 usually works during midge hatches. The 18 covers a variety of the smaller early and late season Mays and Caddis. Fishing the fly: I usually go through the following sequence in trying to determine how to best fish the fly. Upstream drag free float with the fly on the surface Upstream drag free drift with the fly in the film Upstream "drag free" drift with the saturated fly drifting along in mid to bottom current keeping very light contact with the fly by following the fly with the rod tip and removing all slack as the fly drifts down Dry off the fly Up and across stream, rod tip kept high doing some skittering across the current. The heavier the current the more skittering.   Up and across stream, pull the fly under and retrieve the fly across the current Up and across stream, pull the fly under and do a "traditional" wet   fly drift, mending to allow the fly to sink and allowing the fly        the hang in the current at the end of the drift. Then the fly is    lifted and skittered across the surface The skittering techniques often results in missed strikes or refusals. However, it tells you where a feeding fish is and you can usually take it with one of the other type of drifts.   The above routine works best for actively feeding fish. In water from inches to about three foot deep (depending on current speed), the water can be covered from top to bottom with no terminal tackle changes. Willi

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Dry off the fly

What do you do here – blow on it, use some drying pad, shake it in dessicant….? Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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Dry off the fly What do you do here – blow on it, use some drying pad, shake it in dessicant….?

Whatever.  I usually just use my shirt. Willi

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Jeffnc I usually false cast it two or three times, then blow on it and shake it in desiccant powder and re coat it with floatant.  If that doesn’t work I replace it. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dry off the fly What do you do here – blow on it, use some drying pad, shake it in dessicant….? Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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I printed this post and will study it.  I’ve always read willi’s posts, but now that i have fished with the guy….  i’ll memorize them. That post really can help speed up the learning curve.  Great Stuff Willi. The western clavesters don’t call him the Troutmaster for nothing, and he’s a very modest and super friendly person to boot. Hmmmm…. changing presentations.  I was the guy in montana constantly changing flies and lead, now i’ll deliberately try different presentations beforehand. bruiser Before you buy.

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Willi: I am trying to visualize this fly. Is it like an elk-hair caddis, with the wing tied trude style, no hackle?? Tim Lysyk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – its versatility. The tie has a scraggly body of dubbing. I often use an antron mix but I’m not sure this is important. The wing consists of sparsely tied, somewhat short Elk hair. I usually use a light color because it is easier to see. No hackle is used and the head is just the

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Question:

Is there any small lake fish that cannot be successfully and easily caught with a hook, worm and bobber? I ask this because I am amazed at how much stuff I have to catch bass/muskie/northern etc. that often gets no hits whatsoever, but a meaty nightcrawler almost always sinks the bobber within a few minutes and it’s anyone’s guss what will be pulled out of the water.  I have also noticed that a yellow or green 1-2" curly tail on a jig is almost as good. I am getting tempted to leave my tackle box at home and just bring a small pocket sized box with me containing several hooks, bobbers, plastic curltails in various colors/sizes and jigs. Today I went canoe fishing on Hooker Lake in Kenosha, WI.  I used a 3" floating rapala, a floating frog(green and white), a silver shad colored slug-go fished near top and near bottom, a 4" semi transparent minnow looking thing at all depths, a realistic looking and scented plastic worm about 6"(after a while I even tipped the hook with a real wax worm) and a smallish spinner bait.  I tried every type of presentation I could think of. I fished shallow, I fished deep.  I fished weeds, I fished docks, I fished every bit of structure I could find, I fished open water. I caught nothing for 5 hours, not even a little hit. I saw some guy go out onto his pier in his back yard, throw a nightcrawler/bobber rig into the water and figured he was panfishing. Within 30 seconds he pulled out what had to have been a 20+ inch bass.  I was jealous.  He didn’t even look excited about it, like he was used to this sort of thing. I switched to nightcrawler and bobber. I caught perch, bluegill, bass, an impressively large shad, and almost got into the boat what looked to be a sub legal size northern (don’t know what he was doing in hooker lake.)  all within the 90 minutes I had left before I had to head in. Anyone else feel my pain? — Dave A

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Sorry Dave, no pain felt here.  You were versitile enough to change when you saw someone else catching fish on something you knew caught fish, and you adapted.  Good job…next time, throw out a rod with live bait, and fish with a lure simultaneously, and perhaps the combo rigging will tell you sooner, which presentation they prefer.  Keep at it. — "Mad-Mikey"  At first, fishing and hunting were just hobbies,              then they became addictions taking all my time              and money. If they ever find a cure for these              sicknesses—   I’m refusing treatment. Before you buy.

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Hi Dave! I am mainly a fly fisherman.  I had not dunked a worm since I was about 14… 20+ years ago.  For the past two weeks I have been messing around with worms and I’m having a ball!  I’ve caught walleye, catfish, various panfish and my first ever large mouth bass and drum. Good luck! — Fritz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there any small lake fish that cannot be successfully and easily caught with a hook, worm and bobber? I ask this because I am amazed at how much stuff I have to catch bass/muskie/northern etc. that often gets no hits whatsoever, but a meaty nightcrawler almost always sinks the bobber within a few minutes and it’s anyone’s guss what will be pulled out of the water.  I have also noticed that a yellow or green 1-2" curly tail on a jig is almost as good. I am getting tempted to leave my tackle box at home and just bring a small pocket sized box with me containing several hooks, bobbers, plastic curltails in various colors/sizes and jigs. Today I went canoe fishing on Hooker Lake in Kenosha, WI.  I used a 3" floating rapala, a floating frog(green and white), a silver shad colored slug-go fished near top and near bottom, a 4" semi transparent minnow looking thing at all depths, a realistic looking and scented plastic worm about 6"(after a while I even tipped the hook with a real wax worm) and a smallish spinner bait.  I tried every type of presentation I could think of. I fished shallow, I fished deep.  I fished weeds, I fished docks, I fished every bit of structure I could find, I fished open water. I caught nothing for 5 hours, not even a little hit. I saw some guy go out onto his pier in his back yard, throw a nightcrawler/bobber rig into the water and figured he was panfishing. Within 30 seconds he pulled out what had to have been a 20+ inch bass.  I was jealous.  He didn’t even look excited about it, like he was used to this sort of thing. I switched to nightcrawler and bobber. I caught perch, bluegill, bass, an impressively large shad, and almost got into the boat what looked to be a sub legal size northern (don’t know what he was doing in hooker lake.)  all within the 90 minutes I had left before I had to head in. Anyone else feel my pain? — Dave A

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Question:

Eric was quick to say he thought whirling disease was a bad deal, that it undoubtedly played a significant part. But he (and others, increasingly) also pointed out that whirling disease seems to coincide with poor stream conditions: overly silted streambeds below damns or in badly cattle-tromped creeks, like lower Hound Creek and/or the Ruby.

You may have something with the contributing factors involved with WD. It seems to follow here in CO, the areas I know of that are hardest hit by WD are silted areas. Maybe silt is needed in the parasites life cycle. Anyone know if there’s been any research on this? One of the stretches of the Colorado that has lost almost all of its rainbow s under sixteen inches has numerous silty areas. It was an extremely good rainbow fishery before WD.  The remaining rainbows have been spawning successfully but are dying when young. Browns have started to fill in the void. Does anyone know if Cutts are as susceptible to WD as rainbows? Willi

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What is the current thought on taking fish that are obviously infected? Is it in any way our responsibility to kill fish that are deformed and doomed to a slow miserable death? Is there a mechanism for reporting infected fish that are caught? I have no idea what the answers to my questions should be, can anyone pipe in and clear this up for me? Ben Holmes Boulder, CO

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Sandy, I will not list your long post on why no rainbow in the Madison and is it/Isn’t it whirling disease…. just want to comment .. first of all their is an outstanding site on Whirling disease kept by the montana folks, which is easy to find with a search engine on "W… D… montana".   From this and following our local parasite problem … Piscacida (spelling???) something…. a dinoflagellant (again spelling???)…. seems they may both have some common elements… like nutrients, water flow and temperature AND the pest to make an impact…  Meaning some watersheds  without all of the other elements don’t necessarily kill fish… takes the whole package of things… might explain the logic… Anyway locally, we are Zeroing in on hog farms and chicken farms which at low water and high summer temps cause of a "bloom" and changes in the parasite and result in somewhat localized fish kills…  visit the WD site and read the stuff there…. truly first rate research …. for some good insight…. Alan E. Hoover       to quote one of my favorite authors: "Fly fishing is such great fun, it really ought to be done in bed"  John Voelker, aka Robert Traver

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It’s my understanding that trout can only be infected during the first six months of their life cycle and as long as they make it to a year they will survive even with deformities. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Silt is important in the parasites life cycle. The WD organism uses a tubifex worm as an intermediate host. It cycles between these worms and the trout. The tubifex worms are a small earthworm-like creature that occurs in silty bottoms of streams. Siltation has been identified as one major factor contributing to the incidence of whirling disease in an area. Cutthroat are susceptible. I think most salmonids are, except for coho salmon and slpake. The disease causes most damage when very young fish (newly hatched) are infected, so any species that has oyung present at the time the free-living, infective stage of the parasite is in the water is at risk. Damage decreases with  fish age since the parasite mostly destroys cartilage. Fish that are a few years old tend to be less damaged by the parasite. Eric was quick to say he thought whirling disease was a bad deal, that it undoubtedly played a significant part. But he (and others, increasingly) also pointed out that whirling disease seems to coincide with poor stream conditions: overly silted streambeds below damns or in badly cattle-tromped creeks, like lower Hound Creek and/or the Ruby. You may have something with the contributing factors involved with WD. It seems to follow here in CO, the areas I know of that are hardest hit by WD are silted areas. Maybe silt is needed in the parasites life cycle. Anyone know if there’s been any research on this? One of the stretches of the Colorado that has lost almost all of its rainbow s under sixteen inches has numerous silty areas. It was an extremely good rainbow fishery before WD.  The remaining rainbows have been spawning successfully but are dying when young. Browns have started to fill in the void. Does anyone know if Cutts are as susceptible to WD as rainbows?

– Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm

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Silt is important in the parasites life cycle. The WD organism uses a tubifex worm as an intermediate host. It cycles between these worms and the trout. The tubifex worms are a small earthworm-like creature that occurs in silty bottoms of streams. Siltation has been identified as one major factor contributing to the incidence of whirling disease in an area. Cutthroat are susceptible. I think most salmonids are, except for coho salmon and slpake. The disease causes most damage when very young fish (newly hatched) are infected, so any species that has oyung present at the time the free-living, infective stage of the parasite is in the water is at risk. Damage decreases with  fish age since the parasite mostly destroys cartilage. Fish that are a few years old tend to be less damaged by the parasite. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eric was quick to say he thought whirling disease was a bad deal, that it undoubtedly played a significant part. But he (and others, increasingly) also pointed out that whirling disease seems to coincide with poor stream conditions: overly silted streambeds below damns or in badly cattle-tromped creeks, like lower Hound Creek and/or the Ruby. You may have something with the contributing factors involved with WD. It seems to follow here in CO, the areas I know of that are hardest hit by WD are silted areas. Maybe silt is needed in the parasites life cycle. Anyone know if there’s been any research on this? One of the stretches of the Colorado that has lost almost all of its rainbow s under sixteen inches has numerous silty areas. It was an extremely good rainbow fishery before WD.  The remaining rainbows have been spawning successfully but are dying when young. Browns have started to fill in the void. Does anyone know if Cutts are as susceptible to WD as rainbows? Willi

– Tim Lysyk http://www.telusplanet.net/public/timlysyk http://www.telusplanet.net/public/cnangler/html

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A few years ago–when the news about whirling disease in Montana’s Madison river first broke–I remember getting in    He was angry at the Montana Fish and Game. He agreed that whirling disease existed in the river, and thought it played a role in the dramatic rainbow population decline. But he thought it was a minor role, and suspected that whirling disease may well have been present for years: even during the years of plenty. He attributed the dramatic decline to a major loss of spawing habitat in Slide Inn area, where shallow spawing runs had been whiped out in a high water year some 5-6 years back….and to too many fishermen trompling the few remaining spawing beds during the early season spawn. I was pissed off at him, because I liked (still do) Dick Vincent and his cohorts at the Fish and Game department. So we exchanged poison email for a while, and then we both took a powder. spent yesterday skiing with an old friend: Eric Shores, who has been guiding the madison forever (doesn’t seem like too long ago that Eric and Randy and George and George and Paul and a host of other guides were the young interlopers, and now we’re all 40-50 or more, and the old vets, it seems). Anyway, back to the main point. Eric said "yes, it’s true" the rainbow fishing is way off up the river. But says it’s as good or better than it ever was below Varney bridge. That section of the river has always been mostly browns anyway, but there were and are plenty of good rainbows too. ..that spawn in the channels above Ennis lake. And Eric pointed out how bad the Slide Inn area looks. I can’t deny it. What once was a series of dandy little side channels below Quake Lake has been a deep-fast flood channel for years. Even more interesting is the fact that whirling disease has been discovered in a dozen or more other locations across Montana–but without the dramatic drop in rainbow populations. Eric was quick to say he thought whirling disease was a bad deal, that it undoubtedly played a significant part. But he (and others, increasingly) also pointed out that whirling disease seems to coincide with poor stream conditions: overly silted streambeds below damns or in badly cattle-tromped creeks, like lower Hound Creek and/or the Ruby.   It’s also interesting to note that it’s hard to raise money in a cattle state for stream-bank habitat improvement projects, and a hell of a lot easier to raise (big) money for researching whirling disease. I still like and respect most of the people I know at Montana Fish and Game. But I don’t necessarily swallow their line. At least not completely. Not any more. I’d like to hear what others think, especially if they think they have something new to say about this subject. —  * Center for Computational Biology    * Montana State Bozeman  (406) 994-7061  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy */

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 It is interesting that the flow data from MT. Power at Hebgen lake is missing for the years that the Slide area was scoured by flood like flows that changed the upper river. WD was  "discovered" shortly there after. The idea that the spawning beds where washed away is not new , just not put forth as much. I do think that the flooding had a tremendous effect that has been minimized .   Harry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -A few years ago–when the news about whirling disease in Montana’s Madison river first broke–I remember getting in   He was angry at the Montana Fish and Game. He agreed that whirling disease existed in the river, and thought it played a role in the dramatic rainbow population decline. But he thought it was a minor role, and suspected that whirling disease may well have been present for years: even during the years of plenty. He attributed the dramatic decline to a major loss of spawing habitat in Slide Inn area, where shallow spawing runs had been whiped out in a high water year some 5-6 years back….and to too many fishermen trompling the few remaining spawing beds during the early season spawn. I was pissed off at him, because I liked (still do) Dick Vincent and his cohorts at the Fish and Game department. So we exchanged poison email for a while, and then we both took a powder. spent yesterday skiing with an old friend: Eric Shores, who has been guiding the madison forever (doesn’t seem like too long ago that Eric and Randy and George and George and Paul and a host of other guides were the young interlopers, and now we’re all 40-50 or more, and the old vets, it seems). Anyway, back to the main point. Eric said "yes, it’s true" the rainbow fishing is way off up the river. But says it’s as good or better than it ever was below Varney bridge. That section of the river has always been mostly browns anyway, but there were and are plenty of good rainbows too. ..that spawn in the channels above Ennis lake. And Eric pointed out how bad the Slide Inn area looks. I can’t deny it. What once was a series of dandy little side channels below Quake Lake has been a deep-fast flood channel for years. Even more interesting is the fact that whirling disease has been discovered in a dozen or more other locations across Montana–but without the dramatic drop in rainbow populations. Eric was quick to say he thought whirling disease was a bad deal, that it undoubtedly played a significant part. But he (and others, increasingly) also pointed out that whirling disease seems to coincide with poor stream conditions: overly silted streambeds below damns or in badly cattle-tromped creeks, like lower Hound Creek and/or the Ruby.   It’s also interesting to note that it’s hard to raise money in a cattle state for stream-bank habitat improvement projects, and a hell of a lot easier to raise (big) money for researching whirling disease. I still like and respect most of the people I know at Montana Fish and Game. But I don’t necessarily swallow their line. At least not completely. Not any more. I’d like to hear what others think, especially if they think they have something new to say about this subject.

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You may have something with the contributing factors involved with WD. It seems to follow here in CO, the areas I know of that are hardest hit by WD are silted areas. Maybe silt is needed in the parasites life cycle. Anyone know if there’s been any research on this? One of the stretches of the Colorado that has lost almost all of its rainbow s under sixteen inches has numerous silty areas. It was an extremely good rainbow fishery before WD.  The remaining rainbows have been spawning successfully but are dying when young. Browns have started to fill in the void. Does anyone know if Cutts are as susceptible to WD as rainbows?

Hi, The silt is the medium that supports the tubifex worms which carry the whirling disease spores.   Whenever you have whirling disease in a river you will find the biggest problem around areas with a lot of silt.  The tubifex worms carry the spores and live in the silt, the trout eat the worms, the spores infect the trout, the trout dies and spreads more of the spores, the worms feed on the decaying trout and the cycle starts all over again.  The spores do not become active until they are introduced into the trouts system.   The disease orignally came over from Europe with some infected brown trout.  It is a hatcery disease and is not naturally ocurring in the wild in the US, but is almost impossible to eliminate once it gains a foothold.  The sores can lie dormant for 30 years until they are ingested and are impervious to bleach and other cleansers which have been used in the hatchery races to try to eliminate them.  One report quoted a hatchery in Russia that was dried out for 30 years, then re-used and the fish all became infected. Montana was running a test program where they were trying to re-introduce the native cutthroat into the Madison river.  They have kept the native strain alive in a few hatcheries since in the wild both rainbows and brown trout out-compete them.  The idea was to identify some tributaries to the Madison with little or no siltation (and population of tubifex worms) and hopefully no evidence of WD.  They would plant the native Cuts in these tributaries. Cutthroat have exhibited the behavior of staying in their spawning tributaries for at least a year or two after hatching which may be the key to their survival.  Rainbows on the other hand return to the main stem much sooner after hatching.  WD attacks, deforms and kills young fish (older fish can survive an infestation) and the hope was that they would stay in the tribs long enough to escape the early infestation that can devestate rainbow populations.   By the time they return to the main stem which carries the disease, they are old enough to be able to survive it. Haven’t heard anything on this recently and lost the url of Montana’s fish and game site.  Would be worth doing a search on for more info, or perhaps someone on the ng has the url handy and will post it.                        Hope this helps,                                 Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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Question:

It was interesting to see the view that a small rod was best for small streams went unchallenged.  Most of my regular fly fishing is carried out on brooks that an athlete could jump over.  I own rods as short as 7 foot but rarely fish with any rod shorter than 8 foot 6 inches.  In fact prefer a 9 foot rod.  The extra length has been vital many times to push fish away from the near bank and all the tree roots and other hazards.  Casting is easier with the longer rod especially if it is important to keep back from the water’s edge.  Some times a full cast can be avoided with the longer rod by catapulting the fly from the fingers after bending the rod back like a ballista by pulling the line.  Of course it is possible to manage with a short rod but I don’t think it is actually better to fish with. richard

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It was interesting to see the view that a small rod was best for small streams went unchallenged.  Most of my regular fly fishing is carried out

I think the main thing is to have a rod "soft" enough to handle short lines.  This is more important than length of the rod.  I have a very soft 7 and 8 foot, and both work on very small streams, while a stiff Lommis 8 foot rod is useless (in a confined area). Just my .02 worth. PMH

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Question:

I’m headed for Potter county, PA weekend of 7/12. Local hatch chart calls for a "slate drake." Anyone have a recipe for this fly? I don’t see it in my reference materials. Thanks.

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I’m headed for Potter county, PA weekend of 7/12. Local hatch chart calls for a "slate drake." Anyone have a recipe for this fly? I don’t see it in my reference materials. Thanks.

There was a big brown drake hatch on Skaneateles lake (one of the Finger Lakes in NY) last week and I talked to a guy that fished it and did rather well.  He runs a flyfishing shop a couple of miles from the lake (right on Skaneateles creek) and he showed me the flies that he used. I don’t know the size of the slate drakes that you’re trying to immitate but the brown drakes were tied on size 8 hooks comparadun style.  If you don’t get any specific recipe’s I’d get some dark microfibbets or dark blue dun and make a split tail, add some dark grey dubbing, and tye on some dark deer hair comparadun style.   — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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I’m headed for Potter county, PA weekend of 7/12. Local hatch chart calls for a "slate drake." Anyone have a recipe for this fly? I don’t see it in my reference materials. Thanks.

The slate drake is a colorful name for the Isonychia dun.  I’m sure your reference has patterns for this.  If not, try posting at rec.outdoors. fishing.fly.tying.

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Question:

There are ways to get a Sage for cheaper than the normal price.  I got my 590 RPL+ for quite a bit less than retail and its the same rod, brand new, not a second and I love it.

Don’t keep us in suspense…. I’m looking for a RPL Rick

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You mean the inverse of capitalism – capitalism is when market demand determines the price not when a supplier controls the price. If all of us stopped buying because the price was too high then the prices would come down. That would be capitalism at work.

Exactly!  If Sage can’t send enough rods out the door, they’ll go to their distributors and lower the price.  In addition, your point is also an example of why the "price-setting" issue is legal.  As long as consumers have an opportunity to purchase other manufacturer’s similar goods (Orvis, Redington, etc), without fear that manufacturers are working in concert to keep prices high, the system (capitalism) will work.  I also think that many of us draw capitalism out to more than it truly is.  Your example shows only a possible by-product of capitalism.  The only inherent principle in capitalism is that of an economic system that allows for the private ownership of industry. My original intent with the first post was to show that, at least under the current laws, Sage’s (and others) policy on rod prices is legal. Federal Anti-Trust and price-fixing laws deal specifically with a group of manufacturers acting together to either restrict trade or keep prices high (or both).  What a single manufacturer does or doesn’t do with their products is, for the most part, entirely up to them and not currently addressed under law (as far as I know).  The moral or ethical considerations of a manufacturer’s policy is another thing entirely, and one that I probably agree with you on. Jerry Cobb Nashville, TN

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two of my favorite rods are a 3 an 5 wt. redington.  great action and the price is right ( for me).

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David, I have the model 490, 4 weight, Sage RPL+.  I’m not an experienced flyfisherman, and only have two other rods I’ve used extensively.  I started with a Wal-Mart special, moved up to the Sage, and also own an Orvis superfine 6 weight.  The Sage is stiffer, more powerful, and I fish it the most.  The Orvis flexes more easily and I have to force myself to wait longer between the backcast and forward cast to use it effectively. I would recommend you definitly try different rods and find one that suits your style or speed.  I can’t cast that far and still find that the majority of the fish I catch are within half my maximum range.   Look for a rod that you enjoy casting and you wouldn’t mind using all day. Good Luck. Ronny

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: I am thinking about trying a RPL+, and have recently been looking at : some of the spring catalogues for prices.  Does everyone charge list : price (or close to it) or is there someplace that offers at least some : discount?  There must be some entrepreneurs out there  who are willing : to take a little less to make a sale. Sage sets the price. — Jeff Smith                                     Graduate student http://www.msc.cornell.edu/~jeffs         Cornell University, Ithaca, NY

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Smith) writes: : I am thinking about trying a RPL+, and have recently been looking at : some of the spring catalogues for prices.  Does everyone charge list : price (or close to it) or is there someplace that offers at least some : discount?  There must be some entrepreneurs out there  who are willing : to take a little less to make a sale. Sage sets the price.

Although I’m not an antitrust lawyer, I seem to recall from lawschool that such "prics setting (i.e., price fixing)" is illegal and can land one in Leavenworth.  I recognize that Sage (or Orvis etc.) can suggest a retail price but I believe any effort to enforce it on independent dealers would be illegal.

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I currently own several Sage SP rods and din’t even look twice at the new RPL+ rods when they came out.  I spent two weeks in Montana last October and my partner was fishing his brand new RPL+ 590-4.  I asked to cast it one day while we waited to load our drift boat, well the short story is that my wife is currently fishing with some darn nice Sage SP’s and I own two RPL+ series rods. 590-5 and 896-4, I have not been a big fan of four piece rods in the past, but I think you will find that these rods are amazingly easy to cast and shoot lots of line.   I kept my 390sp for my BWO & PMD fishing, but for most of my fishing the RPL+ is my new rod of choice. Cast one! Pask

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: Smith) writes:

: : Sage sets the price. : : Although I’m not an antitrust lawyer, I seem to recall from lawschool : that such "prics setting (i.e., price fixing)" is illegal and can land : one in Leavenworth.  I recognize that Sage (or Orvis etc.) can suggest : a retail price but I believe any effort to enforce it on independent : dealers would be illegal. I talked to a guy at Dan Bailey’s who told me that Sage tells them what price they can sell the rod for.  As I did some looking around, I found that Bailey’s had the same price as everyone else.  You can check the sage website (http://www.sageflyfish.com/) to get the prices.  Prices are "suggested retail", but maybe if you undercut the price Sage might forget to supply the retailer the next year.  We’ve had a discussion about this before- I forget what the final upshot was. — Jeff Smith                                     Graduate student http://www.msc.cornell.edu/~jeffs         Cornell University, Ithaca, NY

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -: Although I’m not an antitrust lawyer, I seem to recall from lawschool : that such "prics setting (i.e., price fixing)" is illegal and can land : one in Leavenworth.  I recognize that Sage (or Orvis etc.) can suggest : a retail price but I believe any effort to enforce it on independent : dealers would be illegal. I talked to a guy at Dan Bailey’s who told me that Sage tells them what price they can sell the rod for.  As I did some looking around, I found that Bailey’s had the same price as everyone else.  You can check the sage website (http://www.sageflyfish.com/) to get the prices.  Prices are "suggested retail", but maybe if you undercut the price Sage might forget to supply the retailer the next year.

 I wonder if any lawyers at the Justice Department are flyfisherman or read this group. Mike Ray Atlatna, Ga Cashiers, NC  

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There are ways to get a Sage for cheaper than the normal price.  I got my 590 RPL+ for quite a bit less than retail and its the same rod, brand new, not a second and I love it.  If anyone was paying attention about 3 months ago I was trying to sell one for under retail but got no takers so I basically gave it to my fishing partner for Christmas.  

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Although I’m not an antitrust lawyer, I seem to recall from lawschool that such "prics setting (i.e., price fixing)" is illegal and can land one in Leavenworth.  I recognize that Sage (or Orvis etc.) can suggest a retail price but I believe any effort to enforce it on independent dealers would be illegal.

Michael Both "trust" and "price-fixing" refer to two or more parties acting in concert.  For example, if Sage and Orvis execs were to conference call and set a price for an indentical product (or very similar product), it would in all likelyhood be price-fixing and is illegal.  Similarly, if the same two companies were to attempt to organize their efforts in an attempt to dominate a market or industry, they are working in "trust," and is considered illegal.  The industrial giants of turn-of-the-century railroad and steel businesses come to mind. Any given manufacturer can REQUIRE its distributors to sell at a certain price, as long as it is part of the agreement to distribute the product, although typically the agreements state a retail price that cannot be lowered.  Any distributor can REFUSE to sell a manufacturer’s product if its terms do not meet the dist.’s needs/wants, such as too high a retail price, not enough margin, etc.  The whole thing reeks of capitalism if you ask me <VBG. Jerry Cobb Nashville, TN

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Although I’m not an antitrust lawyer, I seem to recall from lawschool that such "prics setting (i.e., price fixing)" is illegal

Its not illegal as long as the pricing philosophy is applied to all vendors.  This practice is less common than it used to be, but is not uncommon with "premium" products whose image is based in part on a fixed, high, price. I’m going way back now — but I beleive this one went to the Supreme Court in the 70s. It was a hair-care manufacturer.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any given manufacturer can REQUIRE its distributors to sell at a certain price, as long as it is part of the agreement to distribute the product, although typically the agreements state a retail price that cannot be lowered.  Any distributor can REFUSE to sell a manufacturer’s product if its terms do not meet the dist.’s needs/wants, such as too high a retail price, not enough margin, etc.  The whole thing reeks of capitalism if you ask me <VBG. Jerry Cobb You mean the inverse of capitalism – capitalism is when market demand determines the price not when a supplier controls the price. If all of us stopped buying because the price was too high then the prices would come down. That would be capitalism at work.

Capitalism is rule by those who own the capital i.e., by the shareholders of Sage and Orvis.  We also own capital which we can invest, and this gives birth to free markets.  Strictly speaking though, capitalism is not the rule of the market, the market is a product of capitalism. — Keep your stick on the ice.

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It’s ridiculous to call this price fixing.  Setting the price keeps Walmart and other big volume "businesses" from undercutting the price. It has been tried in the courts and found ok.     If you don’t like the price DON’T BUY IT!!!! An expensive fly rod is hardly an essential item.  They do cast better, but most any rod will cast better than the caster.  What’s sad is that the public can’t get enough of these expensive rods!  I’m sure that the materials, engineering, and demand are driving up the cost, but as long as people continue to be shell out the big bucks the manufacturers are not going to look for ways to cut costs.  I bet if someone came out with a rod with laser aligned guides people would buy it.  Americans just *have* to have the best.   Just my opinion, Rob Gregoire

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Any given manufacturer can REQUIRE its distributors to sell at a certain price, as long as it is part of the agreement to distribute the product, although typically the agreements state a retail price that cannot be lowered.  Any distributor can REFUSE to sell a manufacturer’s product if its terms do not meet the dist.’s needs/wants, such as too high a retail price, not enough margin, etc.  The whole thing reeks of capitalism if you ask me <VBG. Jerry Cobb Nashville, TN

You mean the inverse of capitalism – capitalism is when market demand determines the price not when a supplier controls the price. If all of us stopped buying because the price was too high then the prices would come down. That would be capitalism at work.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Any given manufacturer can REQUIRE its distributors to sell at a certain price, as long as it is part of the agreement to distribute the product, although typically the agreements state a retail price that cannot be lowered.  Any distributor can REFUSE to sell a manufacturer’s product if its terms do not meet the dist.’s needs/wants, such as too high a retail price, not enough margin, etc.  The whole thing reeks of capitalism if you ask me <VBG. Jerry Cobb Nashville, TN You mean the inverse of capitalism – capitalism is when market demand determines the price not when a supplier controls the price. If all of us stopped buying because the price was too high then the prices would come down. That would be capitalism at work.

AMEN!

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writes:  If you don’t like the price DON’T BUY IT!!!! An expensive fly rod is hardly an essential item.  They do cast better, but most any rod will cast better than the caster.  What’s sad is that the public can’t get enough of these expensive rods!  I’m sure that the materials, engineering, and demand are driving up the cost, but as long as people continue to be shell out the big bucks the manufacturers are not going to look for ways to cut costs.   Just my opinion, Rob Gregoire

Rob, thats the reason I’m trying to get one at less than MSR.

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My buddy and I both have a 590 RPL+ and I am amazed at the difference it has in the casting and overall sensitivity.  Seriously they are unlike any rod I’ve ever thrown.  It takes some getting used to the new feel it has, but now I won’t put it down for my other rods.  Besides I’m not a big fan of noodle rods and the RPL+ rods are nice and stiff but forgiving in the tip.  Plus you can’t beat the warranty.  I’d definitely recommend one.

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I am thinking about trying a RPL+, and have recently been looking at some of the spring catalogues for prices.  Does everyone charge list price (or close to it) or is there someplace that offers at least some discount?  There must be some entrepreneurs out there  who are willing to take a little less to make a sale. Atlanta, Georgia Cashiers, North Carolina

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Has anyone out there had any experience with the new SAGE RPL+ flyrods.  Although I will cast before buy, Im relatively new to flyfishing and would appreciate comments.

I have cast but never fished an RPL+.  It is a hell of a parking lot rod.  It’s fairly easy to cast a lot of line with a nice tight lope (even for a lousy caster like me.  It’s a very fast action rod.  Whether it will work as well on the water depends, I think, on what type of fishing you will be doing with it and what sort of action you prefer.  Logically, it would seem to be a better big fish rod (e.g. steelhead) where long casts amy be necessary than a spring creek brook trout rod. I casted the 8 wt. and while it was lots of fun in the lot, I generally like a some what slower rod (I prefered the Sage SP). Anyway, that’s my $.02. Andy

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Has anyone out there had any experience with the new SAGE RPL+ flyrods.  Although I will cast before buy, Im relatively new to flyfishing and would appreciate comments.

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Question:

   My girlfriend (an elementary school teacher) just showed me a wonderful childrens’ book.  It’s called         A River Dream, by Allen Say.    In the book, a little boy in bed at home receives a gift from his uncle: a flybox.  When he opens the flybox, a bunch of live mayflies fly out and disappear out his bedroom window.  He looks out the window, and where once was an ordinary street scene he sees a beautiful mountain stream with a boat.    The little boy gets in the boat and heads downstream, where he encounters his uncle out flyfishing.  The uncle (who practices catch and release, by the way) teaches the little boy to fish, which of course results in the little boy catching a lunker of a rainbow.    The book (as with all Allen Say books) is beautifully illustrated, and the story is well-written.  I highly recommend it for adults and your kids alike!          - Scott —         Scott Wilkinson         Montgomery County, Maryland

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:    My girlfriend (an elementary school teacher) just showed me a : wonderful childrens’ book.  It’s called :       A River Dream, by Allen Say. : the story is well-written.  I highly recommend it for adults and your kids alike! Could you provide the publisher’s name and an ISBN? — Newfoundland and Labrador Science  and Technology Advisory Council                Tel     (709) 738-3400 114 Empire Ave., St. John’s, NF    A1B 1C7      Fax     (709) 738-3276

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi,    i recently found a "New in Box" fly rod.  I’m sure that someone on this news feed can provide some information for me (at least I hope so). It is a bamboo flyrod made by James Heddon’s Sons in Dowagiac, Michigan. Model T170, 6 1/2′ in length.  It says Heddon Deluxe on the shaft, with a number 4 – 3 on the balsa cork handle.  It is a two piece rod with the obligatory aluminum traveling tube. Anyone have an idea of when it might have been made? Anyone every heard of James Heddon’s Sons?  I’ve also got about 200 hundred of their big game lures (sure don’t look like flys to me . Are they still in existence?  I wouldn’t mind knowing when it was sold (I’m guessing in the 40’s to 50’s.), and what it’s good for. I found the rod & equipment in the garage of a recently deceased relative.  He was quite the sportsman.  This particular rod was never used (or even had a reel attached – the shipping notice is still attached), and looks like a nice one.  I now have part of the equipment needed to finally break into fly fishing (of course, what I should do is unload all of this stuff & buy my wife a new washer/dryer, but i’m not too stupid). Any information would be helpful, Thanks, Larry —          "There is NO kill like a guns kill"        CMDR. W. Driscoll, USNR Code 5585                             (202)767-3040  

Although the Heddon Company is still in operation, I expect they stopped making split cane rods many years ago.  Off-hand I would guess your rod was made in the mid 1960s.  I think the 4-3 you mention refers to suggested size of line.  The earlier HDH, HCH, IFI type of line designation was replaced by the number in the ’60s.  Shorter rods were more in fashion a bit later too. Heddon was a good solid production company.  Its rods were not high end custom products, like Garrisons, Dickersons, and Paynes. Is there an extra tip? Heddons, IMHO, should be worth $100 to $200.  There are some oddball collectors who have paid a bit more.  I believe a President model (gold fittings) once brought a thousand.  Your rod is not a president model, but it is in a desirable short size, and if condition is pristine as you say, it could bring a bit more.  With two tips, it could sell RETAIL for even $400-500 (quite optimistically speaking).  OTOH, a dealer would pay you about half of what he thought he could sell it for. Why not keep it and fish with it?  You can pay $400-500  for a fancy graphite fly rod today. I’d rather use an old Heddon. Dave

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hi,         i recently found a "New in Box" fly rod.  I’m sure that someone on this news feed can provide some information for me (at least I hope so). It is a bamboo flyrod made by James Heddon’s Sons in Dowagiac, Michigan. Model T170, 6 1/2′ in length.  It says Heddon Deluxe on the shaft, with a number 4 – 3 on the balsa cork handle.  It is a two piece rod with the obligatory aluminum traveling tube. Anyone have an idea of when it might have been made? Anyone every heard of James Heddon’s Sons?  I’ve also got about 200 hundred of their big game lures (sure don’t look like flys to me . Are they still in existence?  I wouldn’t mind knowing when it was sold (I’m guessing in the 40’s to 50’s.), and what it’s good for. I found the rod & equipment in the garage of a recently deceased relative.  He was quite the sportsman.  This particular rod was never used (or even had a reel attached – the shipping notice is still attached), and looks like a nice one.  I now have part of the equipment needed to finally break into fly fishing (of course, what I should do is unload all of this stuff & buy my wife a new washer/dryer, but i’m not too stupid). Any information would be helpful, Thanks, Larry —           "There is NO kill like a guns kill"    CMDR. W. Driscoll, USNR Code 5585                                 (202)767-3040  

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